The greatest games - A Personal list of Neocracker~ [Archive]

NeoCracker

01-01-2013, 06:58 AM

Hello all and welcome! I, as you may know, and Neocracker, and I play way to many video games.

A thing we are working on in EC has inspired me to take a bit of time out to do this. I will be going through a list of all of the games I have enjoyed enough to leave an impact on my, in one way or the other.

When I say all, I mean all. Every game that came to my mind as I sat down to think about it. Things that didn't clearly weren't impactful enough to matter.

Here is how this will work. Once a weak, possibly longer, I’ll post up a few from my list, starting from the bottom, or my least favorite game of all time.

The goal is to discuss the games listed. What you like about them, what you hate, perhaps you think they are two low on the list? Too High? If the conversation on those games is lively, I’ll likely keep from updating for a bit.

Essentially, part of the reason for this is to give everyone a chance to, perhaps, talk about games they never get the chance to talk about. I do have some rather odd choices on this list, so that is likely to happen a lot! :p

I have a few points on the list I’ll interject some games that I disliked enough to have had an impact on me. Oddy enough, that list is like, only 20. :p

The list of games, the normal one, totals 149. (A few I clumped together, such as Pokemon. All the pokemon games, for instance, occupy one spot on the list rather then the 10 million that exist out there. :p)

This isnt’ really a formal event or anything, and I may also slow down in times when other events are active and lively. Yes, this will take ages to complete, and I know it may not be finished if no one takes any interest, but smurf it! :Monster:

I’ll use a second post to keep a list of all the games I’ve made it through thus far, so you can see where we are just by looking at it. I’ll also be updating my signature soon, complete with image link to the thread, and a clift note showing the games currently under discussion!

This is a very personal list, and in no way is objective. Though I would still like for you to join me, and have a bit of fun along the way!

Also, here is some games that won't be appearing on the list for one reason or another.

Arc the Lad I (PS1)
Wild Arms (‬PSX)
Everquest (PC)
World of Warcraft (PC)
Final Fantasy XI (PC/PS2)
Civilization IV (PC)
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare (PS3/360/PC)
Dual Orb 2
Final Fantasy XII (PS2)
Rogue Galaxy (PS2)
Sparkster (SNES)
Pirates of Dark Water (SNES)
God of War 2 (PS2)
Breath of Fire IV (PSX)
Legend of Mana (PSX)
Soul Blazer (SNES)
Phantom Brave (‬PS2)
Darksiders (PS3/360)
Final Fantasy XIII
Saga Frontier (‬PSX)
Legastia (PS3)

Final Fantasy VII (Crisis Core)
Shin Megami Tensai: Persona 2: Innocent Sin (PSP)
Everquest 2 (PC)
Gears of War 2 (XBox 360)
Final Fantasy XIV (PC)
Civilization V (PC)
Diablo III (PC)
Starcraft II (PC)
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (PS3/360/PC)
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (PS3/360/PC)
Call of Duty: Black Ops (PS3/360/PC)
Battlefield Bad Company 2 (PS3/360/PC)
Alundra (PS1)
Alundra 2 (PS1)
Arc the Lad 2 (PSX)
Arc the Lad 3 (PSX)

And a special thanks to Pitye, who was working on some sigs for me for this. She is an absolute dear who despite my vague and likely bothersome requests, is working on some for me. :love:

NeoCracker

01-01-2013, 06:58 AM

149. Paladins Quest (SNES)
148. War Gods (N64)
147. Totaled (XBox)
146. Lufia: Legends of Lore (GBC)
145. Enchanted Arms (360/PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker.html#post3191815)
144. Twisted Metal 2 (PS1)
143. Twisted metal Black (PS2)
142. Vigilante 8 (PS1/n64) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker.html#post3192359)
141. Cool Spot (Genesis)
140. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (PS3/360/PC)
139. Hook (SNES) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-2.html#post3193369)
138. Metroid Prime 3 (Wii)
137. Mad World (Wii)
136. Gears of War (360)
135. Pokemon (Any of them) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-3.html#post3194774)
134. Legend of Zelda (NES)
133. Mortal Kombat 3 (SNES)
132. Street Fighter 2 (SNES)
131. Legend of the Ghost Lion (NES) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-4.html#post3195462)
130. Digimon World 2
129. Final Fantasy VII (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-5.html#post3197145)
128. Lagoon (SNES)
127. Civilization (PC)
126.5. Mario Kart 64 (N64) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-6.html#post3197798)
126. Brain Lord (SNES)
125. Sly Cooper 1+2 (PS2)
124. Wario World (Virtual Boy) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-7.html#post3198675)
123. Warcraft 2
122. Starcraft
121. Diablo 2 (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-7.html#post3199800)
120. Wild Arms 3 (PS2)
119. Ghengis Khan (NES)
118. Super Mario World
117. Super Mario World 2 (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-8.html#post3200795)
116. Rune Factory: Frontier (Wii)
115. Kirby Super Star (SNES)
114. Paper Mario (N64)
113. Goldeneye 007 (N64) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-8.html#post3200795)
112. Lolipop Chainsaw (PS3/360)
111. Hyper Dimension Neptunia (PS3)
110. Hyper Dimension Neptunia Mk. 2 (PS3)
109. Tales of Destiny (PS1) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-9.html#post3202880)
108. Luminous Arc (DS)
107. Legend of Legia 2 (PS2)
106. Star Ocean: The Last Hope (PS3/360) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-9.html#post3203994)
105. Starfox (SNES)
104. Legend of Dragoon (PSX)
103. Toejam and Earl 2: Panic on Funktron (Genesis) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-9.html#post3205249)
102. Valkyria Chronicles (PS3)
101. La Pucelle Tactics (PS2) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-9.html#post3207003)
100. Trinity Universe (PS3)
99. Megaman X/X2 (SNES)
98. Megaman X3 (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-10.html#post3208140)
97. Killer Instinct (SNES)
96. Disgaea 2 (PS2)
95. Starfox 64 (N64) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-10.html#post3208712)
94. Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Gamecube/Wii)
93. Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits (PS3)
92. Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete (PS1) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-10.html#post3210468)
91. Bloody Roar (PSX)
90. Twisted Metal 3 (PSX)
89. Pokey and Rocky 2 (SNES) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-13.html#post3211529)
88. Robotreck
87. Dragon Age: Origins
86. Dragon Age 2 (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-13.html#post3213093)

85. Soul Calibur 3 (PS2)
84. Bahamut Lagoon (SNES)
83. Skies of Arcadia Legend (Gamecube) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-13.html#post3214272)
82. Super Smash Brothers (N64)
81. Super Smash Brothers Mellee (Gamecube)
80. Super Smash Brothers Brawl (Wii) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-13.html#post3215362)
79. Terranigma (SNES)
78. Borderlands (PS3/360/PC) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-14.html#post3216982)
77. Soul Calibur 2 (PS2)
76. Tekken 5 (PS2)
75. Tekken 3/6 (PS1/PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-14.html#post3217515)
74. God of War 1-3 (PS2/3)
73. Batman: Arkham Asylum
72. Batman: Arkham City (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-15.html#post3217709)
71. Legend of Legaia (PSX)
70. Penny Arcade Series
69. Radiant Historia (DS)
68. Illusions of Gaia (SNES) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-15.html#post3218340)
67. Persona 4: Arena
66. Borderlands 2 (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-15.html#post3219309)
65. Blazblu: Calamaty Trigger
64. Blazblu: Continuum Shift (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-16.html#post3221134)
63. Disgaea 4 (PS3)
62. Disgaea 3 (PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-16.html#post3223204)
61. Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past (SNES)
60. Makai Kingdom (PS2) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-16.html#post3223530)
59. Golden Sun (GBA)
58. Golden Sun: The Lost Age (GBA) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-17.html#post3224203)
57. Catherine (PS3/360)
56. Katamari Series (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-17.html#post3224554)
55. Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars (SNES)
54. Chrono Cross (PSX) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-17.html#post3224983)
53. Atelier Iris (PS2)
52. Atelier Iris 2 (PS2)
51. Wild Arms 4 (PSX) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-18.html#post3226930)
50. Kingdom Hearts (PS2)
49. Kingdom Hearts 2 (PS2)
48. No More Heroes (Wii) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-18.html#post3227582)
47. Atelier Rorona (PS3)
46. Atelier Totori (PS3)
45. Atelier Meruru (PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-19.html#post3229237)
44. Final Fantasy V (SNES)
43. No More Hereos: Desperate Struggle (Wii)
42. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-19.html#post3229581)
41. White Knight Chronicles (PS3)
40. White Knight Chronicles 2 (PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-19.html#post3230227)

39. Dragon Quest VIII (PS2)
38. Wild Arms 5 (PS2) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-20.html#post3231164)
37. Final Fantasy IV (SNES)
36. Final Fantasy Tactics (PSX) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-20.html#post3231567)
35. Septerra Core: Legacy of the Creator (PC)
34. Heavy Rain (PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-20.html#post3231849)
33. Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinestrals (SNES)
32. Infamous 2 (PS3)
31. Infamous (PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-21.html#post3232120)
30. Breath of Fire III (PSX)
29. Brigandine: Legend of Forsena (PSX) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-21.html#post3232441)
28. Golden Sun DS (DS)
27. Earthbound (SNES)
26.5 Mother 3 (GBA) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-21.html#post3232705)
26. Secret of Mana (SNES)
25. Legend of Zelda: Windwaker (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-21.html#post3233293)
24. Fallout: New Vegas (PS3/360/PC)
23. Rune Factory 3 (NDS) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-22.html#post3233825)
22. Demon Souls (PS3)
21. Muramasa: The Demon Blade (Wii) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-22.html#post3234668)
20. Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (N64)
19. Dark Souls (PS3/360/PC) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-22.html#post3235150)
18. Dark Cloud 2 (PS2)
17. Dragon Quest V: Hand of the Heavenly Bride (DS) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-22.html#post3236065)
16. Wild Arms 2 (PSX)
15. Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen (SNES) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-23.html#post3236249)
14. Devil Survivor (DS)
13. Odin Sphere (PS2) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-24.html#post3236580)
12. Breath of Fire 2 (SNES) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-24.html#post3237122)
11. Record of the Agarest War (PS3) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-25.html#post3237632)
10. Shin Megami Tensai: Devil Survivor 2 (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-25.html#post3237845)
9. Xenoblade Chronicles (Wii) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-25.html#post3238153)
8. Mana Khemia (PS2) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-26.html#post3239419)
7. Final Fantasy VI (SNES) (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-26.html#post3239785)
6. Chrono Trigger (SNES)

To keep this list from getting really long looking in one post, I'm now listing them in chunks. Feel free to open up the spoilers, and they should still link to the games listed if you click on them. :P

And Below is the Bad games I've played. Only 13 entrants saddly. :p

[URL="http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-10.html#post3211175"]13. The Elder Scrolls III/IV
12. Shin Megami Tensai: Persona
11. Folklore
10. Deus Ex: Human Revolution (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-26.html#post3240030)
9. Halo Franchise
8. Final Fantasy X/II
7. L.A. Noire
6. Xenogears
5. Dante's Inferno (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-gaming-discussion/147620-greatest-games-personal-list-neocracker-18.html#post3225831)

NeoCracker

01-01-2013, 09:26 AM

Okay, this has just been to keep my first few posts looking somewhat orderly. There won't be more consecutive posts after this. :p

What a great way to start off...

149. Paladins Quest (SNES)
      Yeah, there is no defense for this game. Its bad. Honestly this game does pretty much nothing right. It looks dated for it’s time, the characters are badly designed, and I can say nothing good for this game.

      This is easily the worse game I’ve ever played that I still kind of like. There’s this odd charm in it’s cheesy dialogue that I can’t quite explain, and it’s horribly designed battle system still gives me a modicum of joy.

      Not much detail will go into this, but it still has this awkward place in my heart, and for the life of me I couldn’t tell you why.

148. War Gods (N64)
      Again, this is kind of a hard game to defend. As a Fighting game, War Gods didn’t really have a big roster, being beaten out by many SNES fighting games. The controls were a bit stiff, and the N64 controller was terrible for fighters, (And most things to be fully honest.)

      But there was a fun variety in it’s little cast., and a lot of the moves, mostly finishers, that were just fun to watch. You get to see a Stone Golem punt a guys head off after hammering him into the ground, a guy cut them open with a voodoo doll, or a guy knocking you onto an alter and ripping your heart out to take a bite of it.

      So yeah, I enjoyed it based solely on some pretty base and silly reasons, but I was young. :p

147. Totaled (XBOX)
      Yep, the only original XBox Title on my list. This game was pretty aware of what it was, stupid fun. It was a destruction derby where you smashed other cars and hoped they went boom before yours did.

      It’s pretty much as basic a set up as you can get, and honestly the controls were a bit stiff, and graphics were... Passable.

      But when played with a friend, there was a thrill in smashing the crap out of each other, and things getting totaled in bizarre and fun ways. In the games defense, I think that’s what it was going for, and it succeeded at that. But pretty much only that.

146. Lufia: Legends of Lore (GBC)
      This was kind of a hard game to place on this list to be fully honest with you. There was a lot about the game that bothered me, especially as a fan of Lufia’s 1 and 2.

      The game is clearly made to cater to the fans, with the world and story elements, but gives us nothing we actually wanted. The kept the answers of Arek the Absolute, the last major point of the Lufia Universe that needed answered, and instead gave us one more struggle against the Sinestrals.

      The problem is for a new comer to the series, there really isn’t anything about the world or story you would come in caring about, so this game seems like it wasn’t really made for anyone.

      However, the games saving grace is it’s unique battle system. a turn based RPG that utilizes 9 playable characters, and handles the large size very well, and making party position more important then in most RPG’s.

145. Enchanted Arms (PS3/360)
      You may be noticing a pattern here. That pattern being that these first five games are all kind of poopy. And you would be write. They are.

      Enchanted arms, noticeably, is a game that gets a lot of crap, and rightfully so. Probably the games two best features are the environments look pretty cool, and it didn't’ completely smurf everything up.

      The story is good in premise, but at most turns the execution is flawed. Characters are pretty stock, leaving only a couple decent characters and one that's constantly annoying.

      The Battle system is okay, and fairly unique. Essentially this is the only part that's not too bad, though the game is a bit on the easy side, so the battle system kind of wears itself out about half way through.

Trust me though, I promise the list starts getting better. :p

Loony BoB

01-01-2013, 10:15 AM

I approve of this thread. :up:

NeoCracker

01-01-2013, 10:19 AM

Lets just see if this thread ever sees it's Finale! :monster:

Loony BoB

01-01-2013, 10:19 AM

It bloody well better.

NeoCracker

01-01-2013, 10:57 AM

Also, I should specify I'm not always going to post in chunks of 5. For the most part I'll be posting chunks that I think would be a bit easier to discuss as a group, or at least have some kind of connecting factor.

Mind you, the list wasn't ordered on that basis, so it's not going to happen to often. :p

Ultima Shadow

01-01-2013, 03:40 PM

The only two games so far that I know about are Lufia and Paladins Quest. And while I never played Lufia, I can say I have no objections to the placement of Paladins Quest (well, I never finished that game either to be honest). :p

Looking forward to seeing what games are going to show up higher on the list though. :greenie:

Bolivar

01-01-2013, 06:31 PM

Wolf Kanno

01-01-2013, 08:32 PM

Oh god, I forgot about War Gods, thanks for reminding me about that. :mad2:

I pretty much agree with the Lufia Legends of Lore review, it's not a great game and is definitely leaves much to be desired for a real sequel to Lufia II but it has it's moments. I should actually finish it someday...

NeoCracker

01-02-2013, 04:13 AM

You mentioned the last couple CoD games as ones you need to play, except the last one. Are you playing Black Ops 2?

I will co-sign BoB's approval :thumb:

Sounds like fun.

I see the Neocracker name is back.

Happy 2013 homie :cheers:

I actually only played it. The game itself hardly left an impression on me, as I just don't really like Shooters. Any Black Ops game not on one of those lists,CoD games not listed on one of those lists are ones I just didn't add. No CoD will be appearing on the countdown. :p

Loony BoB

01-02-2013, 09:12 AM

Less chatter, more listy! Once a week is going to take far too long. >=[

NeoCracker

01-02-2013, 09:37 AM

I didn't really intend for this to go by fast, I wanted to leave people time to discuss the games. :p

However, there isn't a whole lot of discussion to be had on these ones, so I'll go ahead and post the next few. :p

Now it's time for a little bit of Carnage

144. Twisted Metal 2 (PSX)
143. Twisted Metal Black (PS2)
       I figured since these were right next to eachother, I'd just do them together, since the snippets would be so similar to each other. This was one of the funner multi-layer games from my youth. The story conclusions were all fun in the single player as well.

      While this is a pretty universally enjoyed series, it's not perfect. The control scheme is pretty archaic feeling, and hasn't aged to well. But its handles well enough. And with a big variety of drivers to choose from, there's plenty of fun to be had playing through the campaigns.

       As I mentioned above though, it's the mufti-player that made these games. Getting a friend and having battle royal's on massive and multilayer maps, blowing each other to pieces with a variety of weapons, smashing into each other from unexpected locations. There really isn't a game that quite compares with Twisted Metal's levels of destruction and carnage.

142.Vigilante 8 (PS1/N64)
      Yes. I place the original Twisted Metal Knock off above Twisted Metal. Really, just about everything I said about Twisted Metal's 2 and black applies to this. It had a bit of an edge for me though. That being the different vehicles and drivers were goofier, and for some reason that added a bit of this odd charm for me, knowing the game just embraced it's inability to be taken seriously. That sounds odd, and this is hardly inciteful, and really tells you nothing about the game at all. But really there is nothing else to be said about. Honestly this game is a shameless rip off that should probably be forgotten and buried. But I can't let that happen, now can I?

Loony BoB

01-02-2013, 10:10 AM

Oh, look, a game I've played. :D Twisted Metal was alright. You're right in that it was never a great game, but still very enjoyable.

NeoCracker

01-02-2013, 10:43 AM

I get the feeling I'm going to have a lot of games on here you have never played. :p

Loony BoB

01-02-2013, 10:48 AM

That's to be expected, yes. I like having people mention other games to me, though. But I'll probably wait for the games high up your list before I actually take it as a sign that such games should be played or anything.

NeoCracker

01-02-2013, 10:51 AM

I think anything after the next 7 are at least worth checking out. :p

Well, at least outside of some of the more Niche' titles that'll pop up periodically. :p

Bubba

01-02-2013, 10:59 AM

The only game I've played on the list so far is War Gods which I think I borrowed from a friend. I found it very unimpressive and it had obvious similarities to Mortal Kombat. Not being the biggest fan of MK I think it held my interest for around 15 minutes before I went back to playing Super Mario 64... and even Turok: Dinosaur Hunter which shows how poorly I regarded the game.

Fighting games aren't really my bag anyway.

NeoCracker

01-02-2013, 11:06 AM

Huh, I completely forgot Turok even existed. :p

Loony BoB

01-02-2013, 11:12 AM

I think anything after the next 7 are at least worth checking out. :p

Well, at least outside of some of the more Niche' titles that'll pop up periodically. :p
Pah! Niche titles are where it's at.

Bubba

01-02-2013, 11:29 AM

Huh, I completely forgot Turok even existed. :p

So do most people who played the game...

NeoCracker

01-02-2013, 11:31 AM

I actually kind of enjoyed the first one. Though had I remembered it, I'd probably have put it either just after or just before Paladins Quest. :p

Bubba

01-02-2013, 11:37 AM

By all accounts it wasn't horrendous... but I think my dislike for for FPS games means that I don't look back on it too fondly!

NeoCracker

01-02-2013, 11:19 PM

And now I have the Sig to go with my thread!~ :love:

Loony BoB

01-03-2013, 10:51 AM

Less posting about your sig, more listing of games!

NeoCracker

01-03-2013, 10:59 AM

Firstly, that sig is smurfing awesome. Shame on you. :Colbert:

Second, since I'm preparing for the Babe Tournament, updates will likely start coming slower for a bit. :p

One of these doesn't quite fit with the others.

141. Cool Spot (Genesis)
      This game was silly. A sidescroller in which you played as the red dot from 7-Up. Odd how most movie/tv show based games turn out crap, we got a fairly well done game that was a 7-Up advert.

      Really, there isn't much to say about it though. It is, really, a very generic side scroller that just happens to be 7-Up themed. The controls handle well, the graphics are alright, and it really didn't do anything wrong. It did nothing special, or even above average, but made for a good mindless play through now and again.

140. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (PS3/360/PC)
      First off, as most of you may know, I don't really like The Elder Scrolls series. This is actually the highest, and only one, on my list. I think this game did a lot right when compared to it's predecesors, but still wasn't able to be that great, just a pretty fun, if at times infurating, experience.

Firstly, the combat and magic feels smoother and easier to use the the previous games. True, it's a pretty dumbed down and simple set up, but it gets the job done. Really, from a purely mechanical point of view, this game runs the smoothest all around.

      The big thing for me, however, was the games opening. That scene with Rolof was absolutely wonderful, and Rolof easily stands to be my favorite character in the game because of it. The game sucks you in immidiately with his speech and the Dragon attack just before your execution.

The problem is the game immidiately drops it's momentum, and it certainly isn't helped by the ‘dragon threat' feeling like it has no real presence, especially when you watch one of the many giants of the game bitch slap the dragons to death, or the realization that bears are far more frightening.

      The only other real credit I give the game is a few areas look amazing. The top three for me being the Underground Snow Forest, the Underdark area, and Markarth. Past that nothing looks bad, but it's all from average to above average in terms of visual appeal.

      I was sad the main plot, and most sidequests barring Brotherhood and Thieves guild, were rather lacking, and in a game where your choices and the world are suppose to drive you, for the most part this game fails at that.

139. Hook (SNES)
      Outside of the main stay side scrollers of the SNES, this one is probably my favorite. A bit like Cool Spot, it really does nothing special, but nothing wrong. Unlike Cool Spot there is more variety in maps, more of a challenge , and the art design is actually pretty darn good.

      Also like cool spot, if you’ve played a Side Scroller, you pretty much no what to expect. It is pretty good about keeping you from having to make any 'leaps of fate’ like most Sidescrollers of old use to do though, and that’s something I appreciated.

Bubba

01-03-2013, 11:14 AM

I have rather fond memories of Cool Spot actually. It must be a nostalgia thing though as I can't think of one stand-out part of the game. I do remember the animation of the main character/spot/thing was pretty cool.

I have no comment to make on Skyrim as I've never played the game. I generally hear positive things about it though.

I've got a complete set of Super Play magazine and I do remember reading a review on Hook. It wasn't a particular complimentary review. It labelled it as just another mundane side-scrolling platform game which the SNES saw plenty of.

NeoCracker

01-03-2013, 11:18 AM

That's actually a pretty accurate review of hook to be totally honest, with just a tad bit more credit then I'd give most of the others. (Asside from some of the more obviously good ones, mind you, that are sure to appear at one point or another. :p)

Loony BoB

01-03-2013, 11:45 AM

I forgot all about Red Spot and Hook seems vaguely familiar at best. Early dramabomb with the only ES entry being so low, though. This is why I love personalised lists.

Futan

01-03-2013, 01:00 PM

Finally one I played with Skyrim. XD

Is this list already written down somewhere or are you coming up w/ it as you go?

Bubba

01-03-2013, 01:15 PM

A sidescroller in which you played as the red dot from 7-Up. Odd how most movie/tv show based games turn out crap, we got a fairly well done game that was a 7-Up advert.

Thinking back now, I do seem to remember the game had a hint of product placement about it. In fact, it seems that just about every level had a bottle of 7-Up as a platform/propulsion device.

I know it isn't on your list Neocracker, but I have to mention Turok again. I had a look at some of the gameplay on YouTube and it looks better than I remember. The back ground was made purposely foggy (due to the N64 not having the power to cope) which did kind of add a little tension with those damn raptors creeping up on you. Also, I thought it was pretty cool that if you shot a guy in the neck he grabs at it while blood spurts between his fingers. It was a pretty cool effect if a little sick.

NeoCracker

01-03-2013, 01:35 PM

Finally one I played with Skyrim. XD

Is this list already written down somewhere or are you coming up w/ it as you go?

List is already finished, and ordered from least favorite game (least favorite I enjoy, that is) to my favorite games.

Though after Bubba bringing up Turok again, I think soon I might inject a brief 'Games that would have been on the list, had I thought to put them in" segment. :p

Edit: And since you played it, feel free to comment on Skyrim Futan, part of this thread is just discussing the games for the sake of discussing them, not just their placement on my list. :p

Futan

01-04-2013, 12:01 AM

I actually agree with most of what you said. :x I should say that haven't beaten Skyrim yet. I agree with your comments about sidequests being lacking but at the same time I found them addicting. To the point of getting burnt out on them. lol.

I wholeheartedly agree about the momentum drop-off though. You go from 'HOLY SHIT! DRAGON ATTACK!' to 'Let's walk calmly to the nearest village' within minutes. I suppose it's more realistic but at the same time it's boring. :p

Greatermaximus

01-04-2013, 05:14 AM

It's also possible you have more time to play any number of games.

Ultima Shadow

01-05-2013, 01:13 AM

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/3220/mio2y.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.png
"I can't believe Skyrim was placed this low on the list!
I mean... storyline aside, it's fun enough to just wack
things with a beefy sword for the game to earn a
better placement! Don't you agree, Rydia?"

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5144/rydia1.pnghttp://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.png
"Well, I have to admit I kinda like blasting
things with spells. And exploring the world
of Skyrim was lots of fun. And I think the
dragons in Skyrim are kinda cute too. <3"

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4203/mio4.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.png
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9879/bernkastel1.png
"Hmph, I personally approve of Skyrim's placement.
Wait, no... I actually don't. It's too high. It should
have been on the 'worst games' list instead."

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.pnghttp://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9879/bernkastel1.png
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/3220/mio2y.png
"Oh? How come? And I hope you have
a better reason than 'I hate everything
that others love', or something like that."

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8266/rydia5.pnghttp://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4203/mio4.png
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.png
"It's because... you can't kill the children. And it
annoys me to no end. Yes. That single fact ruins
absolutely everything. I really, really, really, really
want to kill those damn kids... by beheading them
with a sharp, pointy weapon. And then incinerate
their corpses with... well, 'Incinerate'. Or something."

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.pnghttp://img585.imageshack.us/img585/3333/bernkastel5.png
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/3220/mio2y.png
"...'hating everything that others love' might
actually have been a less disturbing reason."

NeoCracker

01-05-2013, 02:40 AM

I love you Shads. :love:

And now for a series of games people actually know.
138. Metroid Prime 3 (Wii)
      I'll make this clear at the start. I never could get into the Metroid series. I can see why they are good games, and they won't be appearing on the worst of list, but until Prime 3 I was never able to enjoy them.

      Mechanically, I think it was a good route for this game to go with a partial Auto-Aim, if only because I am not very accurate using the Wii mote, as I tend to get really emotive when playing, and don't realize I'm slighty moving the pointer.

      The game itself looked great and ran smooth. Not a really big opionion on this one past that, just an overall enjoyable experience, without any real issues holding it back. Though again, this is coming from someone who was never a big fan of the older games.

137. Mad World (Wii)
      I'l get straight to the point of why I don't put this game higher on my list, and easily the games biggest downfall. As a full priced game at launch, Mad World only takes 2-4 hours to complete, and it's got, at best, lackluster Multi-player to keep it going. Really, this isn't normally excusable, but I still have a fun little spot in my heart for this game.

      There is no use denying it either, but the main appeal of this game is an absurd amount of ridiculous violence. Smashing people up against spike walls, shoving sing posts through peoples throats, grinding peoples faces against a moving train. The kills are so varied and wonderful, it's great at fillout out my violence quota.

      And the game looks beautiful. The screenshots seem incomprehensible, but in motion everything looks clear. I hear people suggest that the reason it's Black and white is the Wii's graphic limits, but even so, I think it helps to excentuate the games over the top violence, giving it a wonderful style and flair to it.

      And while the Humour is not witty, I love it. As long as you go in expecting Low Brow and over the top humour, you'll get a kick out of this game. The announcers are so damned funny, one of whom has a story about how ever boss in this game has done something terrible to his nuts.

      And, this is the fan boy in me speaking, but Spike from Bebop voices Jack. And anything with Stephen Blum in it is going to make it at least a little more enjoyable.

      And this last point is a bit odd, as I didn't excpect it at all. But the story and characters are actually really well done. For being such a short game, they do a great job at getting you on Agent 13‘s side at the end, and understanding why this tournament exists for more then just a players amusement. Hell, it even has you wanting to see the villain die at the end.

136. Gears of War (360)
      If ever there was a reason to own a 360, its Gears of War. Were I a bigger shooter fan, this game would be higher on my list. It really only suffers from having a short campaign, which is pretty much the detriment of most FPS games out there.

      The world looks wonderful, and has the an appropriately bleak enviroment to it, and it's a great game to run through if you have a second person. More FPS's need Co-Op like this, as I've always enjoyed Co-Op more then Competative play.

      I was sad I never got to play the others, as I no longer had my 360 at the time, so saddly I cannot say whether they would end up on my lists or not.

135. Pokemon (Any of them) (Nintendo Handhelds)
      This game really serves as nothing more then a mindless time sink for me. Gather pokemon, grind pokemon, kick Gym Leaders ass, repeat. This is pretty much the entirety of the Pokemon experience for me.

      And surprisingly, I’m fine with that. I like gathering a variety of combatants, and throwing in against my foes. Like other games, I don’t really enjoy the competative aspect of it though. So the enjoyment of Pokemon is a bit lower end for me. But still, from time to time, I’ll grind out about 1/4th of one of the games before dropping it, and Its time well spent for me.

Bolivar

01-05-2013, 05:26 AM

Agree that while pokemon really hasn't done all that much with its various iterations, that's somehow good enough for me. I was only disappointed by how Black & White were worse looking than games 3-4 years older on the DS. There's an expectation for flagship franchises to be the cutting edge at the same time.

Wolf Kanno

01-05-2013, 10:17 AM

Actually Yasumi Matsuno wrote Mad World, so I'm not surprised you like the characters and story. Mad World really is a better game than you would expect it to be but I feel the assessment and low rank is pretty accurate, the game is pretty much for low brow gore violence like what you would get from the good Mortal Kombat games.

I also agree with Pokemon, though you'll get a lot of hate for ranking it so low but since every game is essentially the same with just a few new mechanics added in, I'm not exactly feeling left out for not really pursuing the series like other people have. Its a good series but I feel it really depends if you can get behind what it offers, much like the Mega Man games which I do like despite being essentially the same game with each installment.

NeoCracker

01-05-2013, 11:26 AM

Oh wow, I had no Idea he was behind Mad World. It's a game I never really bothered to look much into when I got it, I was just excited that there was a good game coming to the Wii, they were always few and far between. :p

Loony BoB

01-05-2013, 01:24 PM

I wonder how small the development team is for Pokémon that they do so little to freshen up the games or make them interesting. I still to this day also wonder whty the hell they haven't made an MMO, which the setup is almts perfect for. Let alone why the Digimon alternative hasn't created one, or some MMO hasn't popped up based almost entirely on the Pokémon gameplay.

Haven't played the others that I can recall, so yeah. Heard a lot about them, obviously, just not hugely interested in them.

If they actually create a masterpiece based on Pokémon the sales would be almost guaranteed to be through the roof.

Slothy

01-05-2013, 01:43 PM

Huh, I completely forgot Turok even existed. :p

So do most people who played the game...

The original Turok was amazing you fool! Go start it up and shoot an enemy in the neck and tell me that their death animation isn't the definition of cool. Hell, it had a T-Rex with a flamethrower and, unless my memory betrays me, a laser on it's head. How is that not awesome?

Bubba

01-05-2013, 02:01 PM

The original Turok was amazing you fool! Go start it up and shoot an enemy in the neck and tell me that their death animation isn't the definition of cool. Hell, it had a T-Rex with a flamethrower and, unless my memory betrays me, a laser on it's head. How is that not awesome?

You might want to read my most recent post, my friend. I said I watched some footage on YouTube and it was much better than I remembered. I even mentioned shooting an enemy in the neck! You are forgiven though because you like baseball ;)

Anyway, just here to give my opinion on Metroid Prime 3... It was the first Metroid game I'd played since Super Metroid on the SNES. I hope I haven't got my retro, rose-tinted glasses on but I was a little disappointed. I've been told this isn't technically an FPS but... it sure felt like one. The only FPS I have ever actually enjoyed was Goldeneye on the N64. I just don't feel immersion that most players seem to experience in these type of games.

Back to the game though, it does have some lovely aspects. The Wii remote and nunchuk controls were actually excellent. I also thought the music was particularly good in creating an atmosphere. I was just a little bored by the world presented to me when I began to play through it. After dabbling in FPS games on the PS3 and Xbox, I couldn't help but notice the difference in graphical quality of the Wii. It was kind of like a poorer version of Halo and didn't grip me at all.

I never actually completed the game and I heard things did improve the further you got but... I couldn't stick with it. I'll just return to my SNES any time I want my Metroid fix.

NeoCracker

01-05-2013, 03:08 PM

Let alone why the Digimon alternative hasn't created one,

...Yeah, I'll be getting to that relatively soon. :p

Bubba

01-05-2013, 03:36 PM

I also agree with Pokemon, though you'll get a lot of hate for ranking it so low but since every game is essentially the same with just a few new mechanics added in, I'm not exactly feeling left out for not really pursuing the series like other people have.

I wonder how small the development team is for Pokémon that they do so little to freshen up the games or make them interesting.

Agreed. Pokemon is the RPG equivalent of FIFA or any other yearly updated sports game. It is in essence the same game every time with a glossier finish and a few additional features or tweaks.

That being said, I did enjoy Red/Blue/Yellow immensely. It was my first experience with the game and I was hooked like pretty much everyone else. I did play Gold/Silver but I didn't manage to finish it. I think I'd tired of the format by then.

I would never deny that Pokemon is a fantastic idea and usually very well executed... but anyone who has played every single incarnation is either an idiot... or a time lord.

Raistlin

01-05-2013, 10:32 PM

I loved the old Pokemon Red, but I also agree with its low placement. I'm surprised you weren't immediately set upon by all of its raving fans, though.

NeoCracker

01-06-2013, 08:27 AM

I loved the old Pokemon Red, but I also agree with its low placement. I'm surprised you weren't immediately set upon by all of its raving fans, though.

I like to imagine that when they were about to defend it, they realized how little they actually had, then bowed their head and walked away in shame.

Then again I think awefully high of myself, since the reality is that they probably have long since realized that while they may like Pokemon, there really isn't much to the games. :p

Roogle

01-06-2013, 08:55 AM

Arc the Lad and Arc the Lad II are heavily linked. In fact, the original intention of the developers was to have one game. They share a lot of the same mechanics and feature all of the same characters with the second game taking place only a short time after the first game. I recommend going back and playing both of them if you want to revisit them and give them a chance.

NeoCracker

01-06-2013, 09:43 AM

I do plan on it, it's just one of those games I bought on PSN and has been sitting on my HD. Hell, Xenogears was on there for close to a year before I got around to it. :p

I played a little bit of 1 and enjoyed it, but got distracted and never got back to it. Perhaps after I'm done with Anarchy Reins I'll finally get to running through them. For now though, back to the list!

A little bit of Old School love

134. Legend of Zelda (NES)
      This was among my earliest gaming memories, and regardless of first owning an SNES, I had played this one prior to Link to the Past. While it may be my lowest rated Zelda game, it’s still an enjoyable play. The controls are fine, and the maps were fun and inventive for thier time. Really, this game set up all the foundations for what Zelda is, and still is to this day.

      Not really much I can add to this. A game with very little problem, it looked nice and played well.

133. Mortal Kombat ‬3 (SNES)
      In part, the appeal of this game is the same as that of War Gods. A variety of people violently killing eachother in fun ways. The difference? The game actually played well. For me, this was pretty much the bar for an SNES fighter to be a good game.

      It wasn't my favorite, but it was alwasy a fun time with a few friends. It's another game that didn't really have any major problems with it.

      That said, there is somethign keeping it, and a lot of other fighting games, from being my favorite. And that is the memorization required to improve. MK was always pretty bad about having some really silly and long button combo's. Still though, it was great fun.

132. Street Figher 2 (SNES)
      It’s smoother controls make this game edge out Mortal Kombat for me. command imput were less bothersome then MK. As much as I missed MK’s more brutal and gory appeal, it couldn’t edge out actual quality.

      Though I think the biggest thing for me is the different characters felt a lot more unique, having a bigger array of Mannerism’s from character to character. It gave a bit more of a personal attachment to the characters that MK just laked.

131. Legend of the Ghost Lion (‬NES)
      I have barely played any NES games, to be fully honest with you. However, in my limited experience, I’ve played a couple games that people I know who have played a lot of NES games have never heard of. One such title was Legend of the Ghost Lion. And this was a fun little gem on the system.

      It was a turned based RPG, but you didn’t level by fighting. You gained levels by finding the power ups in chests. The combat itself was pretty basic, but fun and required some effort. It also had a fun style about the world to keep you interested.

      It’s been so long since I’ve played it, so I can’t remember to much story details. So perhaps I’ll put this on on in the near future, and see if my opinion has changed. :p

Slothy

01-06-2013, 01:26 PM

I assume that since SF2 just got a mention there won't be any other MK's o this list? Why did you have to pick the second worst MK title of the pre-PS2 era?

NeoCracker

01-06-2013, 01:31 PM

It's the only MK I enjoyed. :p

Every other MK just kind of registers as a 'Meh' to me. A non-entity if you will. :p

But yes, that was a safe assumption. :p

Ultima Shadow

01-06-2013, 02:20 PM

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4500/bernkastel3.png
"Hmmm, I can understand the placement
of pokemon. Though I have to admit that
I personally enjoyed them quite a bit."

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4130/rider2.pnghttp://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.png
"Wait... did you just say that you
like pokemon? I could see you glorifying
Mad World and Mortal Kombat because of
their extreme violence. But... pokemon?"

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9879/bernkastel1.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.png
Oh, don't misunderstand. The reason I like
pokemon is because of the same reason
Dark Souls is my favourite game of all time.
While many games contain great villains and
enough gore to satisfy me... in pokemon's
case, the very game itself is evil. Not only
does it devour the souls of unsuspecting
kids, turning them into empty puppets. But
it also makes my favourite hobby possible."

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4130/rider2.pnghttp://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9879/bernkastel1.png
"Your favourite hobby?"

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/3333/bernkastel5.pnghttp://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4130/rider2.png
"Watching my opponents slowly struggle to death.
...let's just say that I've never had a pokemon
match take less than 6 hours. I actually caused
a girl to jump from a skyscraper out of frustration
from facing my 'stalling forever' team. That was
one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had."

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.png
"...then Wobuffet was banned from
competitive play, and I quit forever."

Bolivar

01-06-2013, 07:29 PM

NeoCracker

01-06-2013, 07:30 PM

Yeah, when you see MK3 and SF2, those pretty much include all the versions of them. :p

Gogolian

01-06-2013, 10:53 PM

:poo:!

Slothy

01-06-2013, 11:58 PM

MK3 was a big improvement at the time, everything in the game just looked and played really cool. But UMK3 and Trilogy are better because they have that same engine, but with all the crazy characters.

MK3 was an abomination. They had a successful game on their hands with MK and improved on it in pretty much every conceivable way in MK2 (more characters, improved fighting mechanics, more fatalities, better graphics, and better art direction). Then they decided that the best way to follow up the success of those two would be to remove almost every character fans liked (Scorpion, Reptile, Baraka, etc.) and ugly up the ones that stayed (Kung Lao, Sub Zero), while adding some of the most boring characters in the series with some of the worst character designs the games ever featured (Stryker, Nightwolf, Sindel, etc.). If that weren't bad enough, most of the fatalities weren't half as creative as the previous game, the addition of animalities was about as boring as a finishing move could get aside from Babalities which we can thank MK2 for to be fair. The art direction was also considerably worse with most stages and characters being quite drab compared to the previous games. Especially compared to MK2. And apparently their idea of adding something of value to the combat was to make inescapable dial-a-combo's for those players that can't be bothered to learn how to string some moves together and just wanted to mash a few buttons as fast as they could.

UMK3 and MK Trilogy actually got even more broken on the gameplay front as they went along, but at least they had the good sense to put the characters people liked back in and vary the games visual design a bit more so it wasn't completely depressing to look at. Only took them six months to put UMK3 in arcades too. Unfortunately we didn't get an MK that was actually fun to play until MK4 came out though.

But I don't want to be too hard on the MK3 variations though. At least they aren't nearly as bad as Armageddon was.

chionos

01-07-2013, 12:33 AM

MK2 and the new MK are my favorites. Probably because Scorpion.

It's nice to see LoZ on the list, even though I would have liked to have seen it higher. I just hope there's more Zelda to come. There better be.

Extremely disappointed by there being only one Metroid on the list, it being so low, and it being Metroid 3 in particular, since it's one of the worst.

Are we going to see Killer Instinct on this list? I hope so.

Keep it up.

Raistlin

01-07-2013, 12:44 AM

The old Street Fighters were definitely better than the old Mortal Kombats, though I enjoyed both growing up. I would say more than just one spot better.

Bolivar

01-07-2013, 01:00 AM

*shrug* I probably didn't play it as in-depth as you, then, Vivi, but to me it was just a fun game to play that really pushed the visuals forward. It may have been more drab, but that was probably in part to MK3 taking place on Earth instead of Outworld. And I liked the Cyborg Ninjas.

Bubba

01-07-2013, 12:46 PM

I couldn't really get into Legend of Zelda when I downloaded it from the Wii store. I think it's because I came to it after playing ALTTP which improved on it in every way. Good to see it on the list though as it was where it all started!

I also agree that MK3 wasn't particularly enjoyable. I loved MK2 and spent countless hours trying to perfect all the finishing moves. The thing with Mortal Kombat in general though is that it's all about the fatalities. As a fighting game it's always been pretty poor. You end up taking it in turn with your mates letting each other win... just so you can try the fatalities. It invariably ends with you failing miserably as your opponent wobbles around for five seconds before collapsing.

Street Fighter 2 on the other hand is a proper beat 'em up. Much more enjoyable fights and all the characters are pretty well matched. Though I did hate fighting Ryu or Ken... takes one jump backwards, HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN! smurf you... just, smurf you

Legend of the Ghost Lion sounds like a game a developer came up with after drinking a particularly bad batch of ale. I haven't played it but I'm sure it's pretty good!

NeoCracker

01-07-2013, 01:57 PM

It's bizzare, I've ever met anyone online who played that game, yet I never actually even owned an NES, I played at a friends house. :p

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 12:27 PM

Let alone why the Digimon alternative hasn't created one,

...Yeah, I'll be getting to that relatively soon. :p

And now we get to it!

Time to stir up a bit of hate

130. Digimon World 2 (PSX)
      I feel the need to apologize for this one. Because this is not a good game. Oh sure, there are a few good points to it, it’s not completely without merit. But still, I don’t think anything on my list has as much objectively wrong as this game does.

      I’ll start with the good though. There is an insane amount of party options. And with their D.N.A Digivolution of combining different types, I actually think it’s a much better customization set up then Pokemon has ever had.

      With limited item space in dungeons, liminted amount of moves based on engine, and all attacks costing MP, it’s actually a nice set up to force a person to plan thier dungeon dives to an extent. True, it’s not much, but still deserves a bit of credit for the effort.

      Now to the bad. This game has, bar none, the laziest Dungeon design I have ever seen. No matter where you are in the game, it’s the same color scheme, and no dungeon has a defining characteristic. I mean smurf, NES titles managed to have more varience within a single dungeon then this entire game.

      And the second problem, the game is long. But not for good reasons. This game is 2% story and character devlopement, 1% prepping and customizing, and 97% grinding. That is this game. Grinding. Grinding for the purpose of creating new Digimon. Grinding for the purposes of beating the boss’s. Grinding because this game offers nothing else to do.

      I could go on, but I’ll stop the bitching. I will never be able to explain my joy for this game. It is truly an awefully designed game with little good, and what good it does do (The DNA system and dungeon prep) Is undermined by it’s like of versatility in abilities and over all designer ineptitude.

129. Final Fantasy VII(‬PSX)
      Oh yeah, this game isn’t even in the top 100, and to top it off my lowest FF on this list. But to be honest, I enjoy this game, it does a fair amount right. Though, I guess I’ll need to justify putting one of, if not the most, loved FF so low on the list.

      It’s known here I love FF VI, so I don’t think I’m spoiling anything by saying I prefer this one, as you know its going to be listed higher. But if I had to bring up one thing that bothed me was by the second half of the game, due to their Esper system and per level bonus, your party started to become irrelevant. There wasn’t a big reason to use on person over another.

      FF VII was an extention of this, and expanded that to where you really started to feel like your characters were intertchangable in battle, leaving no reason to use someone other then thier limit breaks. This creates a problem, because some Limit Breaks are objectively worse then others.

       There are very few characters I really like from this game, though they do exist. On the Heroes side, Cid is my favorite. And for more then his comically foal mouth. I really get a feel for his dream, and why he cares so much. I even understand why he’s so upset and angry. He’s probably FF VII’s best devoloped character, the stretch where he’s made Party leader basically solidifying my love of him.

      The other is Hojo. Well, Hojo pre-cannon. That whole scene just has me scratching my head, and it didn’t seem like something Hojo would do considering all his developement up until that point.

      The other issue I take is that Sephiroth, the main villain, is overshadowed entirely by Shinra. Rufus himself I wasn’t to fond of, but the organization as a whole had a pressence and flair about them Sephiroth just didn’t have. Sephiroth was a bit of a mess when it’s established that he is in fact in control, yet his plan is, to the letter, to do what Jenova wanted to do.

      Still though, for all the issue I take, the story is well done enough. Theres some great areas to explore, a lot of fun side stuff to do, and a lot of custimization options with a variety of Materia. This game has plenty about it to enjoy once you get past some of it’s dumber bits. :p

Futan

01-08-2013, 12:59 PM

Are all the FFs on this list or VII is just your least favorite of the x number that are on it? :x

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 01:03 PM

Least favorite of the ones on the list. :p

Wheres a few FF's that won't be appearing on my favorites list. I'll have some appearing in the briefs chunks of the games I hate list that'll I post from time to time. Then there is the first FF that won't be appearing, as I couldn't get into it. It was already PS2 era by the time I'd played it, and it felt just to archaich, but at the same time I don't hate it and can see what makes it a good game. Had it not been so long before I got to it I probably would have enjoyed it.

FF XIII won't be appearing either, on the basis that games is basically a Non-Enity to me. I can understand all the hate it gets, and while I don't like it, I can't bring myself to hate it. And never played XIII-2, so those two games will appear in no fashion. :p

Slothy

01-08-2013, 01:06 PM

And I liked the Cyborg Ninjas.

I have to admit that they were one of the more enjoyable things about MK3. Even if they do look more like they're ready to take the dirt bike out for a ride than actual cyborgs. :D

Bubba

01-08-2013, 01:30 PM

I have never played Digimon so I have no comment to make on it.

FFVII is still my favourite game of all time. I understand why it is not held in high regard by many people so I don't mind seeing it this low down. For me though it just blew me away when I first played it at 15.

Loony BoB

01-08-2013, 01:32 PM

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 01:48 PM

I think you only put FFVII this far down for the sake of controversy and discussion. ;) I don't say this as if it's impossible for it to be this low, but rather because if you put as much thought into the reasoning for it being that low on the list into other games, you'd probably have good reason to drop them, too.

Balanced characters being very similar in style isn't great, but it's far better than having three or four characters that are clearly better than the others to the point that using the others is pointless. Likewise, I like that I can use any character in FFVII according to who I enjoy in the story instead of who is the most useful in battle. Again, I'd prefer a perfect balance of more varied jobs, but I'll take what I can get in this case because it's still better than most other FF's.

I don't think Sephiroth was ever really overshadowed by Shinra. I think he was always clearly the big bad guy in the game and Shinra, to coin a famous phrase from around this site, 'get in the way'. Also, far better to have two clear enemies throughout the game than to have the final boss sprung on you very late in the game like many other FF's do (here's looking at you, VIII/X/XII/XIII/possibly more I haven't beaten).

Part of me likes poking at people who like the game so much, because I'm a terrible person, but it honestly is this low on the list for me. :p

And every FF has reasons for it be be low, this just has more then most of the other good ones for me.

In response to your balanced characters, FF VII really isn't ballanced in the slightest due to the Limit Breaks. These are a characters most relevant difference, and there is no way in hell Limit Breaks are balanced between characters. When you get to the higher end ones, there becomes a clear difference in whose Limit Breaks are better, even before the Final Limit Breaks. Stat and ability wise your choices are irrelevant, but the imbalance in Limit Breaks means there are some characters that will pretty much always outshine the others. FF VII has an odd mix of lack of diversity and lack of balance.

Also, I pretty much agree VII is better then 3/4 fo the ones you listed. XII, however, I don't have on this list because while I liked it, I never kept playing it past the first few hours, and cannot comment. IX kind of had the out of no where villain, but not really. That is an... Interesting discussion which we will eventually get too. :p

I also agree that it's clear Sephiroth is the games main villain, but that wasn't my point. My point was the secondary entity of Shinra was easily the more interesting of the two. There is always a part of me that is bothered when the secondary villain is the more interesting. To top it off, I was just never that impressed with Sephiroth. I don't think we was that good of a villain.

Oh, and in the case of other FF's villains, VI's main villain revealed at about the half way point, IV's about 60-70% in, V's is pretty much the whole game, VIII actually is a bit over half way if I remember, IX you know most of the game, X is abit difficult to decide depending on if you go with 'Sin' or 'Yu-Yevon' as the villain when you find out.

Don't get me wrong though, in FF VII it's easy enough to get by with whatever party you want, but honestly I find that holds true in all of the FF's that give you party options. :p

Loony BoB

01-08-2013, 02:19 PM

In VIII firstly it's Edea then it's Adel then it's Ultimecia and you don't even see or hear Ultimecia until the end. Which is absurd, for me. It's probably my #1 gripe with VIII. For X, it's definitely Yu-Yevon. XIII, ugh, don't get me started.

I'm a firm believer in having the main villain at least involved most of the way through the game, known to be the main villain well before the halfway point and visible waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before the end. xD

I liked Sephiroth's story and character, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I feel Shinra were awesome, too, though. I don't hold it against VII that it has two incredible villains and one is better than the other, though. I think they did a masterstroke by having two seperate villains without the "world plot" being turned into a complete XIII-esque shambles because of it.

I don't think the final limit breaks unbalance things all that much, personally. Cloud's is obviously insane, but the others are irrelevant for me.

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 02:24 PM

I will agree I like Sephiroth's story, it's his character that does nothing for me. :p

And I don't mind if the villain is revealed a bit later, (At least by the 70% Mark usually. :p) but ther are acceptions to that, one of which I'll get to eventually. ;P

And I can think of very few main villains which are NOT involved in most of, if not all, the games plot. It just depends on when you run into them. ;P

Loony BoB

01-08-2013, 02:29 PM

When I say 'involved' I mean like Kefka. You mentioned him being revealed as the main villain about halfway - I would say he was involved much, much earlier than halfway. He's seen doing bad things, basically. He's a known bad guy at that point, although perhaps not known to be the main villain. Whereas you have, for example, Ultimecia who is not involved in the plot until it's too late to really care about her as a villain. In the game of FFVIII, I would say that I felt Galbadia was the enemy almost the entire way through the story, and spent more time thinking of the main enemy as Edea and then as Adel than I did considering Ultimecia. She just felt like someone who got tacked on at the end, similar to Orphan in FFXIII (although not to the same extreme).

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 02:35 PM

I hate VIII, a lot, but anything you saw Edea doing WAS Ultimecia, so here involvement is active for a long time, just concealed. :p

God, I'm offering a defense for FF VIII. I think I need to shower. *Shudders*

Loony BoB

01-08-2013, 02:39 PM

Perhaps I should have said "directly involved" but you know exactly what I mean. I could make the same argument for Yu-Yevon and Orphan but it would be utterly ridiculous.

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 02:43 PM

I don't mind a villain not being Directly involved so long as it's handled right. I have a great example of this, but's rather high ranked on my list, so I think I'll keep it to myself for now so It's not spoiled. ;P

Again, mind you, I still enjoy FF VII. After I play through Anarchy Reigns, and probably my current Tactics run, I was considering playing VII again. :p

Polnareff

01-08-2013, 02:45 PM

Digimon World 2 was horrible. The first one was kinda like a more fleshed out version of the DigiPet toy, but the second was a slow, boring dungeon crawler with the most slow-paced battles ever. Kind of like Evolution for Sega Dreamcast but even more boring than that and with Digimon. Third one was better but still slow-paced and you're limited to one on one Digimon fights.

I didn't see that NC had mentioned Street Fighter 2. It's probably too late for me to talk about that game now, but it's one of the games that ignited my love of fighting games and Capcom's games in particular. So much so that I'm literally a walking encyclopedia now when it comes to most Capcom games that came out before last year.

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 02:49 PM

Meh, feel free to talk about it. I'm not really all that picky about that, especially if you just missed me posting it. :p

Also, Dhalsim and Vega were the best guys in that game.

Polnareff

01-08-2013, 03:22 PM

I (very vaguely) remember the first time I played SF2. It was at a laundromat back in 1992, so I was about 3 or 4 at the time. I was too short to reach the joystick and buttons normally, so my mom brought a milk crate for me to stand on to play the game. My first character was Guile, and I promptly got whooped by Blanka (damn you and your balls, Blanka! :mad2: ).

My parents apparently saw how much I liked the game over the next few visits to the laundromat, so a few months later they bought the game for me on SNES after seeing it on sale. I played that bad boy for days, then weeks, then eventually months. At 6 years old I pulled off my very first special move on my own without mashing, the Sonic Boom. I couldn't explain what drew me to the game. Maybe it was the, well....opinion that it was the first good fighting game to ever come out (the funny part is, my second ever game was the very first Street Fighter game, at about 2 years old. This is what my dad told me, at least). The characters were certainly cool too. Where else would you find a green beast guy who can fry people like an egg, or a stretchy yoga master?

Later, I ended up getting Special Champion Edition for Genesis, which basically combined aspects from Hyper Fighting and Champion Edition into one game. This is when I learned how much of a cheap prick Vega could be. :monster:

The real fun came from trying to master the characters themselves. When I was about 10 years old, my friend's dad gave me a big stack of magazines, about half of which talked about SF2 and its enhancements in great detail. Characters, special moves, frame data, all in crazy detail. By this point I'd played SF2 for a few years and had also been playing the Alpha games, as well as pretty much any Capcom or SNK fighter I could find. But I'd only been scratching the surface.

A year later, my parents and I went to a different laundromat, clear on the other side of town. They had a regular SF2 machine there, just like the one at the other laundromat. There were two guys playing it, both were pulling off touch of death combos left and right. I was mad that I couldn't at least have the honor of being whooped by them, because my right arm and left wrist were broken at the time. Before that I hadn't been playing any video games at all for about 4 months. They went at it for a couple hours, with a sizable crowd of about 15 people watching. I don't know what the hell it is with this game and laundromats where I live, but watching this exchange made me want to get better at these games.

So I practiced long and hard for months on every SF game I could find, and eventually got pretty good at them. I can safely say that playing those games in and out gave me the benefit of having really good hand-eye coordination now (I had some motor skill impairments as a kid due to being born prematurely) and it even helped my arm and wrist get (mostly) back to normal, even though now I can't play fighters on a stick to save my life.

I guess basically what I'm trying to say is, SF2 had some cool design choices that stood the test of time. It had to if people are still willing to play games like Super SF2 Turbo after 19 years. Even now, 21 years later, I still play most fighters religiously (especially SF, Virtua Fighter, and Fatal Fury). It makes me sad to see anyone dump on the SF series, because without it, who knows where fighting games would be now? Even the character designs inspired other fighters.

I was kind of a weird kid. Most grew up on Mario and Sonic, but I grew up on Mega Man and Street Fighter. Go figure. :jess:

Wolf Kanno

01-08-2013, 06:34 PM

Didn't see FFVII being this low but I honestly agree with everything you said about it, I never liked how Materia made who is in your party irrelevant, and I also feel Shin-Ra overshadowed Sephiroth as a menace for most of the game. I mean you spend all of Disc one chasing after a guy who burned your home village down and while looking for him, discover how Shin-Ra has utterly ruined every habitable place on the planet while searching for him. I definitely feel VII is really bad about explaining your party's priorities cause between the first discs utterly ignoring the more menacing villain to chase after a bad guy only two members of your party have a grudge with and then spending the entirety of Disc Two finally screwing over the Shin-Ra when they are actually trying to do something helpful, it just boggles my mind when people praise this game's story...

I'm honestly more miffed about Street Fighter 2 being so low on the list but Fighting games are pretty fickle genre for most people.

NeoCracker

01-08-2013, 07:28 PM

The big disconnect I have with Fighters is they are in their nature a genre designed for you to be competative with other people. For some reason I'm not very competitive when it comes to fighters, so for me a lot of the joy other people have with them is a bit lost on me. :p

Polnareff

01-09-2013, 12:00 AM

At my former home forum, I was basically the go-to guy for all things Capcom, and Street Fighter especially. Hell, I was even a mod at Capcom-Unity for a time, until real life got in the way. I miss those days, and typing up that last post reminded me of how much fun I've had with SF over the years.

Annnnnyway, on to FFVII. I like to play through it every once in a while. Never particularly cared about the story, but some of the dialogue is hilarious, especially when you rename your characters (try renaming everyone Sephiroth! :jess: ). Materia was a cool idea that seemed to have been like a lighter version of the Espers from VI. But with how the same Materia could be equipped on everyone, it made every character just about the same near the end of the game.

I enjoyed the hell out of the minigames, such as the one where you're controlling Cloud on a motorcycle, and the snowboarding one. The Playmobil-like character models are cute. :love: VII also has my favorite boss theme in the entire series, so that counts for something too.

The summons in this game are still my favorites, looks-wise. Ramuh and KotR especially.

Forsaken Lover

01-09-2013, 12:15 AM

Did you play FF2? It should still be on your list even if you haven't played it. It's just that damn good.

And I am anxious to see where Xenogears places.

Bolivar

01-09-2013, 12:38 AM

NeoCracker

01-09-2013, 01:45 AM

I don't say this as if it's impossible for it to be this low, but rather because if you put as much thought into the reasoning for it being that low on the list into other games, you'd probably have good reason to drop them, too.

This sentence is full of so much WIN, I love bringing this up when the anti-bandwagon bandwagon fanboys let their emotion get the best of them and actually spew this nonsense. Then again, I guess I can't root for Neocracker to destroy Xenogears as an icon and then protest him doing so against Final Fantasy VII.

I'll just say about the interchangeability that your characters do have stat and range differences that do matter, the problem is the party quickly outpaces the monster levels to the point where it seems like they don't matter. I skipped the battles only for the No. 1 reactor and for the rest of the game, it matter greatly who was doing the spellcasting, whose stats I was exploiting with both green and purple materia, and who was getting the yellows to complement their range and limit breaks.

I'll leave it to the aforementioned anti-bandwagon bandwagon fanboys to desperately grasp for straws and scrape the bottom of the logical barrel to blindly deny this fact.

What the smurf is an Anti-Bandwagon Bandwagon fanboy? Fanboys who bandwagon against bandwagoning? The hell does that even mean? :p

And you can't say that the Party quickly outpaces the monsters so it feels the stats don't matter, and then claim that they do matter in the same breath. And what do you mean 'Skipped battles only for the No. 1 reactor'. Do you mean up until the scorpion in the beginning? Because that's hardly enough experience and what not to even make a noticable difference.

I don't even know what straws to grasp at, as I have no Idea what the smurf you are even talking about here. :p

Edit: And yes, I have played FF II. There will be a time I get to that and Xenogears. ;P

Edit2: Okay Bolivar, I think I've decyphered your silly posts meaning. :p

Are you saying that, if I payed attention to the the numbers, I would notice a difference between one person with an identical materia set up to another person with the same set up?

Forsaken Lover

01-09-2013, 02:11 AM

Bolivar is talking about how FFVII is nothing more than a badly written mess starring an emo wanker, his racist stereotype terrorist friend, Boobs (Yuffie's nickname for Tifa. It's canon), jailbait, an even bigger emo wanker, a useless dog and robot thing, and mothersmurfing Cid. They're all out to stop this dude with an Oedipus Complex who is a far less interesting villain than Rufus who, despite having a speech dedicated to "I Am Generically Evil", is somehow the far more compelling antagonist.

Also Aerith's Theme totally ripped off the Opera music in FFVI. They obviously knew their fugly Flower Girl wouldn't be able to evoke sympathy even in death so they had to steal a timeless classic from an infinitely superior game.

What I'm saying is that FFVII is a load of garbage and the only reason people went gaga over it was because it was their first FF. It couldn't be any other reason than that as every other game in the series is way better.

NeoCracker

01-09-2013, 02:43 AM

...Yeah, just for the record, I have no where near the Negative view of Forsaken here. :p

Slothy

01-09-2013, 02:50 AM

With that level of vitriol and bile we should probably have Forsaken host the next census.

Bolivar

01-09-2013, 03:07 AM

What I'm saying is that FFVII is a load of garbage and the only reason people went gaga over it was because it was their first FF.

2006 called, it wants its Eyes on Final Fantasy forum post back.

Forsaken Lover

01-09-2013, 03:15 AM

What I'm saying is that FFVII is a load of garbage and the only reason people went gaga over it was because it was their first FF.

2006 called, it wants its Eyes on Final Fantasy forum post back.

I might have made a post exactly like that back then too. I do remember 2007ish or so I was on a huge anti-Sephiroth spree.

And Neo, I don't hate FFVII anymore. I used to though which is why it was so easy to summon up all that resentment.

It all comes down to WAH WAH WAH MY FAVORITE FF ISN'T AS POPULAR AS VII WAH WAH WAH

Wolf Kanno

01-09-2013, 05:15 AM

Edit: And yes, I have played FF II. There will be a time I get to that and Xenogears. ;P

I'm betting Xenogears is going to show up when you start talking about Xenosaga, considering how that other thread went, I would be surprised if you actually ranked Gears on this list.

Bolivar - Actually stats don't matter in VII as much as you think because the number they go up is controlled by an RNG and the whole thing is set-up to actually keep everyone fairly balanced. Granted, the characters do have number modifiers attached to their stats to increase the liklihood of certain stats going high and other stats going low, for instance Cloud has a high modifier across the board for all of his stats, whereas Aerith is geared towards magic and Barret is geared towards strength, but most of the parties other stats are more in the middle but their are other mechanics designed to keep the characters from not straying too far from a core baseline, so for instance the maximum stat upgrade you get with a level is 5 even if the calculations say it should be higher, likewise the game compensates for negative stat growth as well so a character always gets something even if the RNG tries to screw them over, ultimately leading to your whole party being fairly average with two characters geared towards melee (Cloud, Barret), three for mage (Aerith, Cait Sith, Vincent) and the rest are largely in Red Mage territory.

Ultimately you get something like FFV or XII where characters are geared towards certain "roles" in battle certainly, but the stat mechanics keep everyone not too far from each other, so the player can safely make everyone be able to do any role they please with little repercussion. So ultimately the stats themselves keep everyone within the same threshold so unless you are seriously customizing a la FFII/VI style with Sources, chances are your whole party is pretty average in ability to each other. None of this is of course helped by us factoring in equipment which throws this into a new ball game. Honestly, Cloud and Aerith are pretty much the two extreme variables in this case with Cloud pretty much being excellent across the board (except Dexterity) and Aerith being heavily geared towards being a mage, but for say Yuffie and Tifa, its actually quite possible for them to have the same strength stat by endgame if the RNG hates you enough, likewise Yuffie and Barret can have the same magic stat.

Interesting fact, the numerical difference between the minimum and maximum stats a character can achieve is a difference of seven points. For instance the lowest Clouds Strength can be is 93 and the highest is a 100. More fuel for VII's fascination with the number 7.

NeoCracker

01-09-2013, 12:48 PM

And now that the character variance has been settled by Wolf Kanno, and yet still no word on "Anti-Bandwagon Bandwagon Fanboys", the next set! Feel free to keep up talk of FF VII though guys. ;P

Oh Childhood, how I miss you some days.

128. Lagoon (SNES)
      This is, sadly, one of those games it's a bit hard to recall all the details on, so were I to go back and re-play it, I'm not sure if I'd still rank it here on the list. So for those of you have have played this title, feel free to correct me on anything I say that sounds a bit funky.

      We have here a game with a top down Zelda-esque view, but more RPG elements then were possessed in the Zelda games. By mixing which Crystals and Staffs you had equipped you could create a variety of different spells to cast. There is even a bit where you finally come to fight and kill someone you'd befriended in your journey, and it was kind of sad when you had to cut him down after going through so much.

      It's a game that, if GameFaqs is to be believed, wasn't really very well received by those who have played it. But you know what? smurf Gamefaqs and the people who submit ratings.

127. Civilization (PC)
      This is a bit of an odd choice, mostly because it's the only game in the Civilization franchise that shows up on my list. And I'll admit that this game is really lacking in comparison to the later installments in the series. I always found it hard to get into this style of game for more then a couple days at a time, and those couple days generally have a year long gap or longer.

      The first civilization always had a certain charm for me though, and I'm not sure what exactly. Perhaps it's the almost absent minded nature which I can play it with, not really putting to much work into it as I span the globe. Breaking treaties mere turns after forming them, causing my foes anguish by sending spies to by off their cities. Mowing down legions of men armed with sticks using my Armor units.

      The music was cheesy, the random number variable was ridiculous, and effectively the only way to win was through destroying the other civilizations, making peace talks rather moot unless you intend to use it to take advantage of someone. Wonderful experience, that it was. :p

126.5Mario Kart 64 (N64)
      You may be wondering why there is a .5 here. Well, there were a couple games that didn't end up on my list because I forgot about them, though in hindsight I feel they do belong here. So, rather then re-order my list numbers, I'm just going to insert them like this. Mind you, there are only two other games I'll be putting in this way. :p

      Anyway, back to Mario Kart, this game was awesome. When you had more then one or two friends over gaming, fighting games could get a bit bothersome since you had to take turns, but with these we could get up to four people sitting down and playing. Everyone got more game time, and the more people trout talking at once the better the experience.

      This is one of the few games I would get competitive with and really enjoy it. My favorite thing to do was Battle Mode. Wario being my driver of choice, there was a lot of fun had in just the silly trout that would happen and the stupid ways one could die in that game. There was a thrill to racing down the different nutty tracks in that game as well.

      We played with some self imposed regulations from time to time. For example, there was the battle map with the four different colored towers and the flat ground beneath them. We would only do two things. Fire down Green Shells, making the bottom zone a death sentence, and place traps. We would not make any active moves to hurt the other drivers directly, and we pretty much made the gentleman's agreement that we wouldn't just sit on one spot, and actually give the map a constant drive. It was quite exhilarating. :p

Slothy

01-09-2013, 01:17 PM

Wario being my driver of choice

Best driver is Dinosaur driver. :colbert:

Bubba

01-09-2013, 02:30 PM

I think Lagoon may have passed me by and I never played many PC games.

Mario Kart 64 though was fantastic. I don't think there is any Mario Kart released since then that matches it. Hours of fun with mates (although you needed a pretty big TV to make four-player enjoyable) and one of my favourite N64 games. It still doesn't quite surpass the original Super Mario Kart for me (though many will disagree) as the course diversity and level of control in the original was perfect.

Futan

01-09-2013, 04:09 PM

Never played Mario Kart 64 but my friends and I wasted days and days on the SNES version. One of the few racing games I loved.

Bubba

01-09-2013, 04:21 PM

Never played Mario Kart 64 but my friends and I wasted days and days on the SNES version. One of the few racing games I loved.

Super Mario Kart is still today my favourite driving game of all time. The fact that Mario Kart 64 wasn't far off matching it (in my opinion) proves that both games are absolute classics.

Polnareff

01-09-2013, 05:55 PM

I have a funny story about MK64. When I first got my own N64 (one with an atomic purple controller), I asked for Banjo-Kazooie. My parents went out and bought MK64 instead. I was a little mad, but ended up playing the game anyway, as it was the only one I had. A couple weeks later, I finally got B-K and played through part of it, and really hated it. I traded it in for Paper Mario later. :love:

Meanwhile I'd put Mario Kart 64 in for the next year or so and play for hours. I'd say during the first few years after I got it, it was one of the games I'd played the most. Weird how that turned out. It was also the N64 game I'd owned for the longest (about 15 years before I finally said "screw it" and traded it in, since it was on the Wii's VC by that point).

I always picked Toad or Yoshi. Stuck with those two throughout all the other MK games. To this day it's still my favorite MK game.

chionos

01-10-2013, 06:59 AM

Lagoon was an overly simplistic generic rpg. I still have my original snes copy of it though, and I almost think I enjoyed it way back. Regardless, I don't think it would make a list of my 150 favorite snes rpgs, let alone top 150 games of all time, but whatyagonnado. This is your list, you get to make the terrible decisions. =P

NeoCracker

01-11-2013, 12:20 AM

Your life was a terrible decision. :Oo:

But yeah, I know it wasn't that good of a game, but it was functional and fun. :p

Anyway, to the next set!

Shall someone trout on these picks too. :cry:

126. Brain Lord
      I always had a soft spot for games that mix in puzzle areas to progress through the dungeon. While this one was never the most complex in that regard, it had a lot of fun puzzles none the less. Even with a bit of a cheesy story without much to it, it has some fun gameplay and characters to keep the game rolling.

      Another Zelda-esque game, it did have an interesting twist to combat. The ability to summon out two farie allies. There were a fair number of them, and any two could be out at once. Some offered buffs by being out, some attacked enemies, one acted as additional lives for you. You can level them up by getting certain orbs dropped by enemies.

      Theres a bit of variety in your weapons as well. So while a bit simplistic and generic, the faries and different weapons keep the game feeling a bit unique, and a few challanging puzzles and a couple clever tricks here and there make for a good time to have.

125. Sly Cooper 1+2 (PS2)
      Oh Sly cooper. These games don't even try to take themselves that seriously. And you know what? They were better off for it. Since it's kind of a silly premise, an animal world with a Raccoon thief, aided by a pink hippo and a techie turtle.

      This game is Mario 64 meats stealth. You go through the different levels finding collectables and completing the area objectives. A very simple set up, and handled very well. The controls are smooth, and there's a lot to do in each area.

      The visuals are a fun and cartoon-y look, which keeps with the games theme of not taking itself seriously. The areas are vibrant and fun, and come complete with a variety of enemies with different ways of handling them all. Throw in some fun boss fights, you get a good time.

124. Wario Land (Virtual Boy)
      This is going to be the only game from the Virtual Boy on this list. Once you get over the head ache caused by the system in question, this was a gem on an otherwise stupid system. And, for that matter, were it on a more functional console, such as the SNES, this may well have ended up higher.

      It pretty much had all the good qualities of the older Mario Games. The sound was probably the best on the Virtual Boy, which isn't saying much, but it was still pleasant enough at the time. It also came with controls that ran smooth. Not much else to say about this game actually. A great game held back by being on a troutty console, a console whose entire purpose seemed to make gaming inconvenient and uncomfortable.

chionos

01-11-2013, 06:19 AM

Sly Cooper is a highly undervalued series.

Futan

01-11-2013, 07:34 AM

Any Virtual Boy game being in this completely invalidates this entire list. :colbert:

Wolf Kanno

01-11-2013, 07:42 AM

I'm saddened that Sly is so low but whatever, not my list. I'm also surprised by Mario Kart 64 being so low but then again that was kind of one of those games where my friends would literally drag me over to their house to do battle mode. In fact, I don't think I ever played any of the actual races.

NeoCracker

01-11-2013, 02:18 PM

Firstly, Futan, clearly you never played Wario World. That game was great.

And in response to Sly, it was a game I was really late to the show on. I hadn't played them until the PS3 collectoin, and considering I played straight through 1 on then 2, I burned myself out on Sly Cooper really fast. :p

Mario Kart ended up Low, because I could never get that much joy out of it unless it was me and a few friends I had playing. It had pretty much no single player value to me.

NeoCracker

01-13-2013, 01:09 AM

As a side note, I'm somewhat wondering what I was thinking putting FF VII behind Lagoon. That should probably be knocked up a couple spots past Civilization and Lagoon. Hey, this was a lot of games to organize, list isn't going to be perfect. :p

Regardless....

There a Blizzard coming in...

123. Warcraft 2 (PC)
      Ah Warcraft 2. There was a time I felt you were the pinancle of Real time Strategy. The two sides had a lot more variety then they held in the games predecesor, so it made playing each side an entirely different experience. Even today I think it’s gameplay holds up.

      Even the narrative itself was pretty solid. The villains may have been blatently evil, but regardless the story they told was well executed, and you get a bit invested in the games events. Not being big into RTS’s is pretty much the main reason this game was not ranked higher on this list.

122. Starcraft (PC)
      Take everything I said about Warcraft 2, and make it better. Story was better, gameplay was better, three sides instead of too, and an improvement on the enviroments, both graphically and artistically.

      Compared to Warcraft 2 the characters are a lot better developed, and you care a lot more about the outcomes of the campaigns as a direct result of this. Mind you, Starcraft 2 won't appear on this list, as I've never played it. :p

121. Diablo 2 (PC)
      The game that popularized the loot n’ wank Genre. The story? Not bad. Nothing special, but servicable. Graphics? Same boat really. They accomplish their intended purpose. But again, nothing to write home about. The drive for this game is simple. Get better trout. The purpose of getting this better trout? So that you will be able get even BETTER trout. And this is Diablo 2.

      I honestly don’t know why this is appealing to me. This isn’t something that normally works to sustain a game, just see all the failed diablo clones for this. Something about Diablo 2 just does this better then most others. It’s like of other aspects, however, still keeps it pretty low on my list.

Futan

01-13-2013, 04:29 AM

Your description of Diablo 2 also describes every MMO in existance. XD

Bolivar

01-13-2013, 08:55 AM

As magical as WC2 and 3 were for me, I've never gotten into Starcraft. I played Warcraft for what it was, Age of Empires was another fun MP game for some of the cliques I was in, but Command & Conquer's always been my main squeeze.

Did you intend to have three blizzard games in a row for this post?

Loony BoB

01-13-2013, 01:22 PM

Your description of Diablo 2 also describes every MMO in existance. XD
I think MMO's have a lot more going for them in various areas. Particularly the social side.

NeoCracker

01-13-2013, 05:14 PM

Bubba

01-13-2013, 08:53 PM

I can't pass comment on any of the previous six games having not experienced them. I would like to take this opportunity to say I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, Neocracker. Keep it up!

chionos

01-14-2013, 01:26 AM

Loony BoB

01-14-2013, 09:36 AM

I'm with Bolivar in that I never cared for Starcraft but I adored Warcraft. I think it just has a really tongue-in-cheek, comical atmosphere that makes the entire thing endearing and then as you play you can really find all the characters, races and personalities can come to life. In Starcraft, I always felt that it didn't convey nearly as well. Perhaps it's the dark look or the military talk that put me off... not sure. Either way, I never had any trouble playing Dune II, Warcraft or Warzone 2100 while C&C and Starcraft always seemed dull by comparison.

NeoCracker

01-15-2013, 01:55 AM

Ah, thank you bubba. You warm my cold, callous heart.

A rather inconsistent set for once!

120.Wild Arms 3 (PS2)
      Okay, I promise that I’m just about out of not good games on this list. But just indulge me on this one. Compared to other games in this series, this one falls a bit flat in more then one way.

      However I think there is still some merit to this game. It’s porbably the most ‘wild west’ feeling of the franchise, which I really enjoyed. It featured a female protaganist that was actually fairly well written, not something you see happen all that often in an RPG, so it was appriciated.

      The Battle system is pretty damn basic, but functional. And once you discover the Clive trick, which is easy, the game is pretty much a walk through. But it’s fun, and theres a fair amount of customization. Just nothing special.

      Also, there are a lot of fun plot elements, it just has a problem properly executing them. But at the same time it resolves anything it needs to resolve, and it makes enough sense that it allows you to appriciate some of the finer plot points, even if there are only a few to be had.

119. Ghengis Khan (NES)
      This game was awesome back in the day. Basically it’s the same game as Nobunaga’s Ambition. You take the role of Ghengis Khan in the single player, and expand your influence over the land of Mongolia.

      There was a lot of aspects to this game for an NES title. Population and Army Moral was invovled, wheter or not you controled different conquered territories or if you put them in charge of one of your heirs. Your hiers, as well as yourself, have sperate stats that effect them in battle as well.

      Different merchants from different areas, spies, and sending spies to smurf with your enemies was great. I can’t think of another NES title that had the complexity this game had, or even most SNES titles. There was even a multiplayer where each person had control of a country (Multiplayer expands to all asai rather then just Mongolia), and turns would be taken as people built up their nations for war. Great as either single or multiplayer.

118. Super Mario World (SNES)
117. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island (SNES)
      Firstly, I am going to hide behind a bullet proof shield. Someone is going to be ready to stab me since Super Mario didn’t even make my top 100 games list. I’ll preface this by saying I fully understand why other people would put these higher.

      Super Mario World is actually the very first video game I had ever played. My earliest memory is finding out I had gotten a Super Nintendo for christmas, and it came with Super Mario World. This game has a very important place in my heart. It’s what introduced me to my favorite hobby, which was great for meating and getting to know people I’d consider my best of friends.

      That said, as important as I feel this game was to me, there were a large number of games that came after I enjoyed more. It was, and still is, a solid gaming experience. It became the basis for the Side Scroller of the era. Fun in both single player and multiplayer, the thing that holds this game back is it isn’t long before it all starts to feel samey.

      Once you’ve experienced all the power ups, which is fairly early, the game runs out of new things to fofer. Still, the levels are fun and good looking,. Even if you started gaming long after the SNES era, I think there is still plenty of enjoyment to be had with this game.

      The second game added a fair bit, but inevitabely falls into the same hole. About half way in, the game has nothing new to offer, but still manages to be a great run. As the first, this one is also a great game to pick up.

Bubba

01-15-2013, 02:24 AM

Whoa, whoa, whoa....

i will be awake again in about four hours time... and I will then list for you the reasons why Super Mario World is the second-greatest 2-D platformer of all time.

I still respect your opinion though!

NeoCracker

01-15-2013, 02:27 AM

I eagerly await your response. ;P

chionos

01-15-2013, 06:00 AM

Same here. It would definitely be a top 50 game for me. I'll let Bubba defend it though.

I want to argue many of these decisions but it seems that you based your list simply on how much fun you had playing each particular game, and there's no arguing that.

Bolivar

01-15-2013, 07:38 AM

Pretty cool to read your thoughts on smworld. I guess I'm a tad older since my equivalent was smb3/the original but it was awesome as those console games you want to talk about and play with others. No matter how far out my gaming tastes take me I always inevitably come back to that Nintendo magic (but I wouldn't put Mario that high, neither)

Rostum

01-15-2013, 10:52 AM

I'm liking this thread so far, but it'd be even better if you posted a screenshot for each game! :)

Bubba

01-15-2013, 11:41 AM

Ah, Super Mario World. 75 levels of pure, unadulterated fun! I had a NES for years before upgrading to a SNES when I was ten years old. I remember having two games when I opened it on Christmas morning... Super Tennis and of course, Super Mario World.

Super Tennis was great but it didn't get the hours of play that I put into Super Mario World. It was very close to the perfect 2D platformer. Here are a few reasons why...

- Playability - The controls were flawless... incredibly responsive. You just had the perfect level of momentum. Whenever you mis-timed a jump, you have no-one to blame but yourself! As well as the standard platform jumping, it introduced new elements such as climbing fences. You also had the new spin jump to smash through blocks from above... not to mention the new power-ups which I will get onto.
- The Introduction of Yoshi - Genius. It again added another dimension to the gameplay. Being able to eat apples, hold shells in order to fly, stomp or spit out fire. Plus, the coloured Yoshi's you can acquire later in the game to ease your attempts at Special Road.
- Level Design - SMB3 really advanced the level design from the original but this game took it even further. Brilliantly challenging platform jumps, high routes, branching paths, short-cuts, countless hidden rooms, falling for minutes into nothingness avoiding enemies... I always thought Sonic had the edge in platform design but at the time, this could not be matched.
- Power-ups - It was a shame not to see some of the kookier suits from SMB3 (Tanooki, Hammer) but it more than made up for it with the introduction of the cape. This more than anything added another dimension to the Mario formula. It opened up the levels to an incredible extent. This led to lots of sky-based treats to be found, providing you have enough room to take off! It did lead to some levels being far too easy to bypass but that is tantamount to cheating in my book.
- Music - Anything Koji Kondo touched in this era was guaranteed to be special and this game was no exception. A fantastically diverse selection of music that added so much to the whole atmosphere of the game. The little touches really raised this to another level... like the additional drum beat whenever you're riding Yoshi... or the amazing reggae version of the Mario theme that starts when you've been sat on the Special Road map screen for a few minutes. If you're in any doubt as to how good these tunes were then listen to this... Super Mario Medley - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZki6TcY4w) the majority the SMW tunes are found in this amazing video.

The game wasn't perfect. The difficulty level was far too low for a Mario game. Especially considering the game could be completed in about 30 mins using Star Road. The bosses too (even Bowser) were ridiculously easy as well as the cape being more than a little broken for certain sections of the game. It's this reason more than any that I would still give the edge to SMB3 as my favourite 2D platformer.

It's a small gripe though on what is an incredibly fun game to play. It has sprinkles of Nintendo genius all over it and I still dust off my SNES to go back to this every now and again. As soon as I turn the game on to hear the sound of that first coin... I am immediately ten years old again.

NeoCracker

01-16-2013, 07:49 AM

Firstly, Rostom, that's not a bad Idea, but with the Babe Tournament incoming, I'm pretty much sick of gathering pictures, and will be busier when I start running that and don't know if I can be assed to start finding pictures. And with the size of some of these posts, I don't think I'll really want to be doing pictures shots as well.

Though if everyone wants them, once I hit my top 100 I'll start posting them with the game descriptions. :p

Secondly, Chionos, feel free to bring up contrary points to any of these games. Part of the reason is to get some Dialogue going on games people don't often get to talk about. Don't let the fact these are just my opinions stop you. :p

Anyway, on to the next set!

Bit of Nintendo lovin'

116. Rune Factory: Frontier (Wii)
      For those of you who know me, you’ll know I’m a fan of Harvest Moon. You’ll notice though none of the Harvest moon games appear on my list, as I forgot to include any upon it’s completion. However, all of them would rank below this game. Rune Factory is essentially everything good about Harvest Moon plus some.

      With the inclusion of of dungeon crawling and a Narrative, Rune Factory achieved a level of emersion other Harvest Moon titles could not. The Farming remained very fun, and more functional then before. Opting for Monster Barns in place of regular farm animals gives a fun variety of harvestable items, as well as giving you ways to train up some farm help.

      Now, I know not a singe thing I said there does not sound fun. At all. It’s a game focused around farming and talking to people. Really, I don’t think it’s possible to make a Rune Factory game, or Harvest moon for that matter, sound fun. And I think most fans of it became fans in one of two ways. The first is confusion as to what the game actually is, and then the end up trying it and loving it. Option two takes place with the following scenario.

Guy: Hey, this game is awesome!
Guy2: What is it!
Guy: A Farming simulator! And you can get married in it!
Guy2: That sounds smurfing stupid.
Guy: PLAY IT!
*Hours later*
Guy2: Fine, I’ll smurfing play it.
*Days later Guy2 emurges from his home*
Guy2: This game is smurfing awesome!

115. Kirby Super Star (‬SNES)
      This is the definative Kirby game. I never enjoyed the others much at all. Epic Yarn had potential, but was so mind numbingly easy I just couldn’t bring myself to give a single smurf, especially since there really wasn’t a good narrative going on. Super Star, though, while liking a strong Narritve had a lot of other things going for it.

      It had a big number of powers Kirby could obtain, all of which operated differently and required different stratagies. Pair that with an AI or human controled partner made from one of many enemy types, you get a huge amount of styles to play.

      With multiple story modes, all of which having thier different little quirks, of the SNES era of Side scrollers, this game was easily the most varied. I absolutely adored this game growing up, and even now I find much pleasure in running through it.

114. Paper Mario (N64)
      This game was the crowining achievement of the N64 RPG. Mind you when your only real competition is Quest 64, this isn’t really saying a whole lot. But trust me, this game has a lot going for it.

      More then most other aspects though, this game has a lot of charm and humour. You grow to like the characters and world quick, as well as find yourself laughing constantly throught the plot. This game knows not to take itself to seriously, opting more to make your foes look like a bunch of putz’s rather then a legitamate threat. And I’m surprisingly okay with that. Purely humorous RPG’s aren’t all that common.

      Asside from that, it has a solid battle system. Not a whole lot of variation to be had, but it’s simple and fun. And with no real problems, and a style of gameplay that fits the light hearted nature of the world and game, it’s forgivable. Especially with all the fun maps and finding the different inventive ways to advance.

      Sadly Thousand Year Door will not be making this list. Not that it's a bad game, but I never got a chance to play through it, so I can't give a real honest opinion on it. Though I did play through part of the beginning, and what I saw of it was great!

113.Golden Eye 007 (N64)
      For me, this is pretty much the best FPS game I have ever played. This is, for the most part, a Genre I just don’t enjoy. This game, however, had a few things going for it that gripped me more then other shooters.

      As you know by this point, I was never very competative, outside of a few games. This is one of them. All the different silly modes you could unlock, or even regular play, were great fun to be had. I had a mean knack at murdering people with the throwing knives. But the four player split screen on Multiplayer were great times.
      Though what hooked me more then the multiplayer was a campaign mode that actually had some length and challange to it. Lacking in your modern halo’s is both a length and challange. Even to people who haven’t played those games I see them beating it on the harder difficulties with relative ease.

      Call of Duty, while being more of a challange then a game like Halo on single player, still suffers from being abysmally short. I always hated when these FPS games started skimping on thier campaign and putting most of the focus on multiplayer. I can understand why, but I was always sad to see the Campaigns of this Genre flounder about so pathetically.

      That is why I will always love Golden Eye over any other shooter I’ve played. A campaign that was fun, interesging, and a challange to complete. As a single player gamer, this easily takes the cake for best shooter to me.

chionos

01-16-2013, 08:30 PM

Oh my. Well. Okay. Um...well yeah, so, I'm, well, I'm just going to sit back and watch and not comment. NC and I apparently have very different opinions on what makes a game "the greatest." :screwy::barf::colbert::nonono::glare::grumble::whimper::twak:

Bolivar

01-16-2013, 09:31 PM

Good to see the Rune Factory love. There was a time when I was really, really into the DS and the original Rune Factory was a huge reason why (I know you're talking about the Wii one). I don't know what it is that makes a series like Harvest Moon, such an unfun concept, be so irresistibly addicting to people like us, but hey, to each his own.

About FPS... Goldeneye was a significant milestone, but it's one of those titles where the game as a whole has aged to the degree of unplayability, although the multiplayer still retains that design genius at the time (Twisted Metal 2 is very similar). With Call of Duty, the Treyarch games usually aren't that short, and MW3 was longer than the others as well. My personal favorite campaign shooter this gen is Killzone 2 (the multiplayer was brilliance as well). I really like the challenge the learning curve presents with movement being so different from other shooters, and the shooting having a huge learning curve where you really need to learn the gunhandling for each weapon. The levels are really awesomely designed and the cover system makes it very tactical. It's one of the most fun games to play with turning off the HUD and going at it. It's an incredibly immersive game although the brutality does turn some people off.

FEAR 2 is pretty awesome as well.

Polnareff

01-17-2013, 03:19 AM

I never played Rune Factory for Wii (I want to, as soon as I get another Wii) but I played the shit out of Rune Factory 3 for DS. I liked how they made it more like an action RPG with elements from Harvest Moon. Harvest Moon on its own got tiring to me, and I hate to say that because it's such a cute and charming series. :cry: So when Rune Factory came out and it had quests where you could fight monsters and things, it made me interested again.

Kirby Super Star (that is what you are). This is still my favorite Kirby game, because of the variety. You got your Kirby's Dream Land remake, your collect-a-thon, your racing mode, your boss rush mode.....not to mention probably the biggest array of powers in the series. Oh, and you could play with a friend! :D

Paper Mario. Oh god, where to start on that game. At first, I hated the game. Later on, though, like 5 years later, I downloaded a, *ahem*....."copy" of it and really liked it that time. Everything about this game was on point. I especially loved the battle system and the storybook graphics. It was cutesy to the point of being sickening (especially Bowser and Peach), but it was a worthy sequel to the Square game.

Futan

01-18-2013, 12:05 AM

I haven't played it recently so I can't comment on how it's aged, but just due to the sheer amount of fun I've had playing it with friends, I would put Goldeneye much higher. Like somewhere in the top 50. But then again, you say you're not a fan of the genre so I guess it's no surprise it's low.

NeoCracker

01-18-2013, 06:27 AM

Please Chionis, I haven’t even broken into the top 100 yet. ;P

Besides, it’s funner if you try to tell my why I’m wrong, makes for more interesting converations that way. ;P

Anyway, I’ll preface this set by saying I probably overlooked this in my initial editing of this list, but everything in this block, the last game being the exception, should probably be moved back before everything from the last set I posted. But, as the list is already done, smurf it! They can stay where they are.

Yay for poorly placed games!
112. Lolipop Chainsaw (PS3)
      I will preface this, like quite a few other games on this list, by listing the two big things that kept this game from ending up higher on my list. The first being it’s not a very long game, at all. It suffers like most of Grass Hopper Studio games for it’s shortler length. This title in particular is rather bad in that regard.

      The other being the controls are pretty damn basic, not really doing anything new or unique, and it has a few issues with the aiming mechanics. Nothing that makes it unplayable, but it’s noticable.

      On to the awesome. And oh god does the awesome in this regards overflow. It is over the top and silly to an extreme. It’s hard not to be enthralled by the world created in Lolipop chainsaw. The characters are both bizzare and mostly unreleastic, but at the same time fit so nicely into the world and enviroment it doesn’t really bother you. And best yet you still find yourself caring about the fates and lives of these people.

      The Boss battles are all awesome. They, like everything else in the game, are these strange and almost surreal sights. From a zombie whose curse words materialize to smash you, to a disco zombie alien in black face, this whole game is an absolute wonder to behold. With more solid mechanics and a longer run time it would end up higher on this list.

111. Hyper Dimension Neptunia
110. Hyper Dimension Neptunia Mk. 2
      ...Okay, this is a series of games aimed at a very small and niche demographic of players. Most people out there should go no where near these games. Because my god are they silly. It plays it’s fan service in such a way it’s more like it was put there as a parody of Fan service from anime and video games rather then being intended as actual fan service. It’s constantly parodying various anime and video game tropes, and if you get the things it’s riffing and like the over the top humour the game has to offer, you’ll probably get your monies worth.

      I hesitate to call the combat in these games good however. It’s solid enough in both games, but a few of the customization mechancis can feel a bit over complicated to acieve rather simple results, and you’ll find yourself repeating the same moves for stretches at a time throughout the gameplay, causing it to offer little varience.

109. Tales of Destiny (PS1)
      First off I’m giving you a little bit of my relationship with the Tales series. This is a well made series, and while game quality varies quite a bit from title to title, it’s easy to see why this series has a pretty loyal fan base. However, I have never been able to play more then a couple hours into a tales game before my interest is completely shot, in spite of having no real qualms with the titles. I could never put my finger on just why.

      The sole exception to this is Tales of Destiny. Showing the classic Tales style of combat, it’s an odd mix of Side Scrolling and Turn based RPG combat in battle, and classic JRPG top view movement through dungeons and over world map. The combat flows smoothly, and the ability to change the wielders of the talking blade’s weapons can make for some fun varience in your party.

      The story is pretty solid as well, with a cast of fun characters and interesting twists along the way. In the end though, the combat is probably this games, and on a whole the series, stronger points. Definately worth a look if you’ve yet to play any of the Tales games, or fans of the series who, for some strange reason, missed this title.

NeoCracker

01-20-2013, 04:15 AM

Wow, I guess no one had anything to say about those last few games.

Well then to the next set!

Lets try this again!!

108. Luminous Arc (DS)
      A fun little SRPG that can be found on the DS, to date there have been three titles launched. Having only played the first one, I can’t comment on the others, but this is a good game if you like the Genre.

      Complete with a large cast of characters, they go the route of each character having a class unique to them. You get plenty of variety in your cast to make the lack of individual character customization forgivable, since character customization is typically a staple of the genre.

      The story is pretty full of typical anime tropes, but regardless there is a fun story and cast building through out the game. So if you have a DS and enjoy a good SRPG, you can’t really go wrong with this title.

107. Legend of Legaia ‬2 (‬PS2)
      The follow up to Legend of Legaia, it’s a solid enough game. While I hoped for more out of a sequal to Legaia, there’s no real problems with this title. Gameplay, story, and characters are all solid, and it actually does a bit to make your magic a bit more useful then the last.

      It keeps up the combo system of the previous game, giving you a vairety of attacks. Though there will be stretches of the game you’ll discover your best combo’s, and gameplay becomes pretty repetative for chunks at a time. Still though, stringing the combo’s together is fun, and the story keeps you intrigued enough.

106. Star Oceaon: The Last Hope (PS3/360)
      I’ll be honest, the only other Star Ocean game I’ve played is 1, and I couldn’t really get into it, and stopped playing after a couple hours. As such, this will be the only Star Ocean game appearing on my list. And since this game got quite a bit of flack from fans of the series, I expect a few funny looks for this one.

      To begin, I don’t dislike Lymle as much as other people. I do find it odd though people complain about her constant ‘M’Kay’s”, yet no one seemed to be bothered by Myuria’s constantly calling you ‘Boy’ with this really awkward and annoying emphasis on the word. Bothered me a lot more then the ‘M’Kay’s’ ever did.

      The story is basically two different stories. The events involving the Cult on Roak, and the rest of the game. Now I’m a bit bothered by the massive disconnect with the two plots, as it seems as if the Roak events should have had a real impact on the plot, but they take up a lot of time and really don’t effect the rest of the game. That said, both plots are fine. Nothing great, but nothing infurating.

      The game has a lot of pretty enviroments to keep you happy through the games run time, without any particularly bad looking enviroments, and a couple that are very good. It’s also got some pretty solid character designs as well.

      The cast, while mostly mediocre, has a couple really fun characters. I really enjoyed the Meracle and Serah comedy relief, and Serah’s Monotone and inabilit to gauge the importance of any situation is always good for a laugh. Myuria is really the only character that bothers me.

      Mostly the game is carried by a fun and fast paced combat system. Blind Sides and Rushes were very fun, and there are plenty of party combinations to give you combat options.

       So long as you don’t go in planning on taking the story to seriously, it’s an enjoyable rid.

chionos

01-20-2013, 04:34 AM

So what you're telling me is Star Ocean 2 is not going to be on this list? At all? Is that what you're telling me? Are you saying that you haven't played the best game the Star Ocean series has to offer? Am I actually hearing these words? I mean, Am I actually seeing these words? Are you really typing them? Is this really the truth? Seriously, if you ever get a chance, play Star Ocean 2.

I liked Legend of Legaia quite a bit, and was really disappointed with 2. I tried to go back and play both of them not too long ago and just couldn't, though.

Out of curiosity, will part 1 show up on the list anywhere? And don't you tell me I just have to wait and see!

Bolivar

01-20-2013, 04:44 AM

Ugh why are so many of these games ahead of Final Fantasy VII....

I like how upfront you always are of the Hyperdimension Neptunia games. I know you like them yet you're always so quick to qualify anything good you say with something negative. Just come out and admit you enjoy them! I actually wanna check them out one day just to see what it's like, I'm intrigued by the whole console concept.

So long as you don’t go in planning on taking the story to seriously, it’s an enjoyable rid.

Good to hear that about Star Ocean III, I'm all about enjoyable rids.

Raistlin

01-20-2013, 04:51 AM

:mad2: at the Super Mario World ranking. I replayed it through a ROM several years ago, and it was still highly enjoyable. I echo everything Bubba said about it.

I never played Legend of Legaia 2, and only part of the original. It just lost my interest.

NeoCracker

01-20-2013, 09:47 AM

Firstly, yes. The first Legaia will be showing up on this list at one point. :p

And no, I haven't played Star Ocean 2 or 3. Only "Last Hope" and the first one.

And of course I enjoy them Bolivar, hence why they are on the list. :p

Ultima Shadow

01-20-2013, 05:22 PM

Luminous Arc is, if I remember correctly, my first RPG for the DS. I enjoyed it quite a bit, though both of the sequels had better gameplay. LA2 saw some small improvments like slightly more customization thanks to the "Lapis setups". LA3, which sadly never saw an english release (but I played the japanese version) greatly improved everything gameplay-related. The battles are more fast-paced, the lapis-system from 2 is still present and even further improved, you get to customize your characters even more through stat-development choices at each level-up ( depending on your choices, one of the characters can either turn into a special-attacking glass cannon, or a somewhat bulky mixed attacker while one of the "healers" could either have ideal support stats or be turned into an offensive mage with great offensive stats etc ) - this all while each character still maintain their unique classes. The online gameplay was also greatly improved and you actually got to see the order of the upcoming turns, which both 1 and 2 lacked for some reason. Finally, the interaction with other characters worked in a Persona-inspired way where you had a set amount of time each day to spend as you liked.

Yeah... LA3 topped both 1 and 2 completely. Shame on whoever's responsible for making the decision of not translating the best of the 3 games. =(

Ugh why are so many of these games ahead of Final Fantasy VII....

I can kinda get some of them, but... Star Ocean 4 ahead of FFVII (and lots of other cool games)? That's just utterly incomprehensible. :|

The cast, while mostly terrible, has a couple really abysmal characters.
Fixed. :colbert:

Edit:

Also, I did find walking, talking elf-boobs' constantly saying "boy" to be annoying too. She and Lymle weren't even the only ones either. Lymle just happened to get on my nerves a little bit more than the others. :p

I'll admit that I might hate SO4 just a little more than it deserves, but... some cutscenes were seriously painful to endure. And aside from the decent gameplay, which was still a downgrade from SO3, this is basically how I remember the game:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/998/starocean4hassuchanamaz.jpg

:p

Polnareff

01-21-2013, 02:28 AM

The best part of Legaia 2 was Kazan. Especially the way he calls out his attacks.

"Uwoh! Midare.......OTOKOMICHIIIIII!"
"Ikuzo! Senran......OTOKOBANAAAAAA!"
"Musou.......SUIGETSU WARI!"

I loved Legaia 2 otherwise, but didn't like how every character except Kazan and Maya used weapons. The story made almost no sense either, then again I never played either Legaia game for the story.

Bolivar

01-21-2013, 03:18 AM

And of course I enjoy them Bolivar, hence why they are on the list. :p

haha, well then stop being so defensive about it!

NeoCracker

01-22-2013, 12:38 AM

I'm not being defensive, just giving my honest thoughts on the games. ;P

And I won't deny it Shads, there are some pretty damn bad cut scenes in that game. :p

Well, to the next set!

Slowly, but surely, approaching the top 100.
105. Starfox (SNES)
      Oh Super Nintendo, you gave us so many great games. Even one of the few flying games I can enjoy. The Original Star Fox on the SNES was great. There are times the controls could feel a bit clunky, but on a whole it handled great. And even with the blocky graphics a lot of the levels were still great.

      The game was a bit weak on the story, being pretty basic, but all the characters had some personality. It was a nice touch that you had point in the levels to save your allies, and by keeping them alive it would allow them to assist you later on in the stage. It helped give the game the feel you were in the Squadron, while keeping you, the player, as the center piece of the action.

104. Legend of Dragoon (PSX)
      I’ll be honest, I’m not really sure what the reaction to Dragoon being so low on the list will be. It’s a fun game, with an intriguing timed hit mechanic that changed depending on the addition being used. There were definitely some people who were harder to do then others, IE that smurfing Gust of Wind Storm from Lavitz/Albert. That one took a bit to get down.

      It’s a pretty colorful cast of characters, none of which were particularly bad. They all had at least something interesting about them, Haschel being a personal favorite.

      The Story was also pretty solid, though there isn't’ really to much that will take you buy surprise during the plot. The interest never really dies out, and it’s a game that actually kills off one of your characters, and one you’ve come to like at that. And the best part? They didn’t try to pull some bulltrout to revive them.

103. Toejam and Earl ‬2: Panic of Funktron (‬Genesis)
God trapping annoying tourists in jars is fun.

chionos

01-22-2013, 06:22 AM

Had a lotta fun with TJ&E back in the day. Simple humorous fun.

Starfox has its place in the history of gaming, but I think it's in its rightful place, could perhaps go even lower really.

I think I feel almost indifferent about LoD's position. I mean, I really enjoyed the game, there's a lot to enjoy, and yet it's not, I dunno, memorable. I never found myself thinking about it when I wasn't playing it, and I don't get nostalgia pains for it like I do for the FFs, SO2, Lunar, etc.

NeoCracker

01-24-2013, 08:37 AM

And we approach the Top 100. This will be the final Set before we embark on the top 100 games, which is really what is important in the grand scheme of things, isn’t it. :p

The last two games that people won't care all that much about!
102. Valkyria Chronicles (PS3)
      This is a game I wish I could put higher on my list. I really do. If for no other reason then how amazing the animation is, and for being one of the most original combat set ups I’ve seen in an SRPG.

      What I feel held this game back from a higher rank is it was hard to get invested in the world. The Characters were all pretty set in their archetypes, and the regular outbursts of silly from them really detract from the more serious and pressing tone the story is trying to go for, most noticeably the main characters awkward obsession with bugs, which regularly saves all of their asses.

      But past that, from a game play perspective this game is amazing, though at times the classes can be a bit unbalanced. It mixes in SRPG elements with a lot of things one would expect to see in more realistic small scale conflicts. Enemies remain hidden on the map until your characters have eye contact, people hiding in rubble, behind objects, and in tall grass, and moving through your enemies firing range will trigger attacks against you.

      And as mentioned before, the animation and art style of this game is absolutely gorgeous. This on it’s own warrents at least looking into this game.

101. La Pucelle Tactics (PS2)
      This was my initial exposure to the NIS SRPG. There was a lot of fun to be had with the games battle, and over all silly story. Intentionally silly mind you, which is a Silly I find myself able to get behind.

      The Battle system was fun and offered a good amount of Variety. Not one of the better NIS titles in this regard, but it was definitely a good starting point for me. All in all, don’t go in taking the game to seriously, and the goofiness and decent battle system will get you hooked.

Pete for President

01-24-2013, 08:54 AM

But past that, from a game play perspective this game is amazing, though at times the classes can be a bit unbalanced.

It is the truth. All one ever needs in the later missions are scouts and shock troopers combined with damage/demolition boost to take out tanks. The limited movement of snipers and lancers make them redundant pretty quickly.

Polnareff

01-24-2013, 03:26 PM

Legend of Dragoon was overrated and mind-numbingly boring to me. You had to sit there for hours on end doing the same boring combos over and over to level up even once. :| Not my idea of fun at all. Pretty much made me lost brain cells after a while. The soundtrack was meh and the only good part were the dragoon transformations for me (and the laughable battle voices). On a top 200 or so list for me, this game would barely make the 800th position.

La Pucelle, however, is to me the best NIS game ever made. It's not overly repetitive and highly-dependent on leveling like Disgaea, and the characters are cute and funny. It was just right, and I'm frankly a bit mad that they've never made a sequel to this game, but made 3 sequels to Disgaea.

Bolivar

01-25-2013, 05:30 AM

If there's anything that could possibly piss me off more than you putting Final Fantasy VII behind Hannah Montana, Superman 64, and Guitar Hero 72, it's keeping Valkyria Chronicles so far back. I loved the characters and you kinda stop getting the silly outbursts once you get to the part with the Concentration Camps. Sorry if that spoils it for anybody but you should really smack yourself in the back of the head if you haven't played this game yet.

Glad it's at least here and in the discussion. I really adored the artwork, the world, the way the colors are used, vibrant greens or gloomy greys, such a big contrast in a time in gaming where you were either a brown/grey/black shooter or something trying its hardest to be the opposite and failing for that superficial motive. I hated the cell shading trend on the PS2 for so many years, in the same way I hate smartphone indie games today. But Dragon Quest VIII completely made me a believer, which was incredible, but Valkyria went even further, which I didn't think was possible. This game is art. The music was tight - it's Hitoshi Sakimoto, no matter what you say about him he's the ultimate composer when it comes to scoring a video game about war. Straight up and down. And of course the gameplay. I've gone on about how revolutionary it all is, I'll just say it's really awesome when you're in those maps, figuring out exactly how you're gonna take this, and moving ever farther into the unkown. I really can't smurfing wait to replay this game, especially after playing the excellent VC2.

Overall I understand why people don't like the story at first, and yeah, there are some silly outbreaks, but people should stop being so serious, it's not that game breaking, it reminds me more of Studio Ghibli's Sherlock Hound, both serious and silly at the same time in a magical, almost surrealistic way. When I first started the game, I wasn't 100% into it and kinda kicked myself for being so hyped for the game when I just wasn't enjoying it that much. But then it started kicking in; I think it builds up like a snowball until it's this awesome force and you appreciate what the game stands for artistically. This is a horrible explosion of random thoughts but I don't care, it's Valkyria.

NeoCracker

01-26-2013, 09:38 AM

And here we are my friends. Finally breaking into the top 100!

100. Trinity Universe (PS3)
      And of course I start off with a game that will probably only appeal to a very small portion of people. Trinity universe is a game containing only a couple of unique characters and a mix of characters from the Atelier and Disgaea games. If a person finds themselves disliking either
the Atelier series or Disgaea's sense of humor, it may be best to sit this one out.

      The combat system is a pretty solid. You get a fair amount of attacks and Variety within your parties, though it does suffer from feeling repetitive after the half way point when you
your preferred strategies picked out. Still though, the battles can be a fair amount of fun .

      Like a couple of my earlier games, the big reason to delve into Trinity Universe is if you can get into it's story. Consisting of two separate groups stories, each of which converge with each other at multiple points mind you, you get a rather light hearted adventure that doesn't take itself to seriously on a whole, though comes with some epic moments from time to time. There are a lot of laughs to be had in this game as it focus's more on humor then any kind of drama. Another one a lot of people likely won't get to much out of, but you'll probably know if the games for you when you look at the casing. :p

99. Megaman X-X2 (SNES)
98. Megaman X3 (SNES)
    Now this, my friends, is the SNES side scroller of my choice. I know Mario may have done a lot more for both the Genre and the gaming industry on a whole, but I've always preferred the cyber world of the Maverick and Maverick Hunters. I'll note no of the other Megaman X sidescrollers or the original Megaman games will appear on this list, and X and X2 share as stop because I forgot to put in X2 separately prior to this. :p

     These games are pretty damn similar in terms of quality for me. The core of all of these games stay consistent, opting for some fairly minor differences from game to game, though they always add enough to keep it fresh. I absolutely love each games sets of powers for Megaman though. With Each boss giving a new power to Megaman and power
ups that can be found throughout the world, the Megaman experience gets altered little by little from beginning to end, keeping a fresh feeling the entire game through.

     &nbspAnd while they are pretty archetypal heroes, it's easy to find yourself getting behind X and Zero on their quest to fight against Sigma, the recurring villain of the X games. I always loved Sigma, essentially a sentient Computer Virus. His plans are basic, but he himself always manages to have a looming presence in these games that makes you feel like he is actually a threat. I was always sad with the later games in the X series as the enjoyment of them just seemed to drop with each installment, but at least we still have the original X trilogy.

Bolivar

01-26-2013, 07:02 PM

The X games are so good. The music is so insane.

Wolf Kanno

01-26-2013, 10:24 PM

The amusing thing about your X speech is that I know a lot of fans who are split on the series, with many thinking X3-X5 are the best, and then some fans who feel Axel gets a bad rap and is a better character than people give him credit for. Course I think this largely comes down to who your favorite character is cause I like X but don't care for the X4/X5 entries as much since he's relegated to a side character while Zero gets the whole spotlight but I guess this is creator revenge since Zero was meant to be the main character and X's existence is from corporate meddling. Alas, I still think I'm the only fan of X6...

Polnareff

01-27-2013, 12:17 AM

Whoooooa, somebody mentioned a Capcom game again.

The Mega Man series is one of my favorites.

When it comes to X, I admit to being one of those "divided" fans. I like X1, X2, X3, X4, X6, and Command Mission. I thought X7 had really shitty controls, which ruined the experience. The voiceovers were terrible too. Try getting through the boss fight with Flame Hyenard without strangling yourself.

Since this is about X1, 2, and 3...... I like X1 the most out of the first 3. It's the most pure one, IMO. The level design is on point and the difficulty progresses nicely. The soundtrack is one of the best as well. And while X gets the Shoryuken in the second game, the Hadoken was more useful. X3 wins a lot of points for being able to play as a really overpowered version of Zero. X2 is my least favorite of the first 3, it seems kind of bland. The added graphic effects were great, though, and so were some of the bosses (WIRE SPONGE!!!!!)

NeoCracker

01-27-2013, 11:00 PM

You know Wolf, I never actually got around to playing X6, perhaps I’ll check it out one day. :p

97. Killer Instinct (SNES)
      This, my friends, is the SNES era of fighting games at it’s finest. While Street Fighter was always good fun with a group, it never managed to engross me as much as Killer Instinct.

      Like most of the Fighting games on this list, it’s story is pretty much irrelevant, if it even has one. I can hardly remember to be fully honest. But the characters each had a style and way of moving that make them seem unique, so much like street fighter each character had an aura of personality even without the need for dialogue.

      This game has the advantage, however, of having what I find to be the vastly superior atmosphere in it’s design, making the visual fun of the game and the satisfaction of seeing your moves succeed give it a huge leg up over the others.

96. Disgaea ‬2 (‬PS2)
      You know, I forgot this was even on my list until now. Being a game that slipped by my eye when I revised this list, I’m left to realize it probably deserves a good 7-8 spots lower then it currently is. But oh well, little late to change it now. :p

      This was my first Disgaea game, and I enjoyed it. Still haven’t played one surprisingly. Regardless, it holds it’s own as a game well enough. The characters are decent, plot is decent, and the humor is decent. It get’s by without having any real problems, but doing nothing spectacular either. Worth a go if you like the NIS style of SRPG’s.

95. Starfox 64 (N64)
      Take everything great about Starfox on the SNES and make it better. There isn’t a whole lot to say past this. It was just a purely upgraded version of the SNES version with a few great things added in.

      The big one is your allies having more of an effect on battles if you keep them alive then the previous installment. This added even more to the the feel that you operated in a squadron, something also aided by the expanded personalities and dialogue of your team.

      To date, this is my favorite flight simulator type game, and you should really check it out if you haven’t.

Wolf Kanno

01-27-2013, 11:07 PM

Polnareff

01-28-2013, 04:35 AM

X6 is a frustrating game actually. It brought the X series into some of the cheap death designs of the NES era so its often considered to be one of the hardest entries barring X7's bad 3D controls *shudders*. So most fans hate it, especially since X5 was meant to be the final X game, though X6 actually ends in a way where its still canonical with the MMZero series depending on the ending you get so I still count it as part of the main timeline. The game is seriously designed to piss you off though. :eep:

Another thing is, Inafune actually did come back to work on X6 too (about halfway through development), so that pretty much, on top of what you said, makes it a canon game. Pretty much all the MM games except the fluff games like Battle & Chase are canon, but some of them are canon in different timelines. MMBN and Star Force occupy one timeline, while original, X, Zero, and Legends in that order occupy the other.

X6 is basically a Guide Dang It game because of the level designs. Especially once you get to the final stages of it and wonder why you keep dying over and over. Metal Shark Player's stage and a certain Gate stage caused me plenty of grief. It wasn't a sissy game in terms of difficulty like X5 was. I also liked the Nightmare Soul idea, even though it wasn't varied enough, and made some stages annoying (but at least you could tell which stages had it and could simply play another stage or reset the game and it'd pick other stages).

The bosses were either really cool (Metal Shark Player and Yammark) or really stupid (Infinity Mijinion, Shield Sheldon). There seemed to be no in-between.

As much as I like X6 despite it being rushed out, I have to laugh at the story. Not that the story in the X games was that great, but it reached an all new low with X6. In X5 Zero is cut clean in half and is floating through outer space, kinda like what happened to Freeza in DBZ but then you find out that X6 took place only 3 weeks after that, and that Zero somehow recovered while floating out in space. Think about that. How could something like that happen and get resolved with no explanation? Even as a person who rarely cares about storylines in games, that shit cracked me up.

If you haven't yet, NeoCracker, then play MMX: Command Mission. I highly recommend that game. It was even made by the same team within Capcom that made the Breath of Fire games.

Bubba

01-28-2013, 02:08 PM

I may as well offer my opinion on both Starfox games as I think they're both classics in my opinion. The original was fantastic. It was obviously one of the first games to utilize the Super FX chip which created the 3D polygon graphics. I was blown away by the intro to the first level and the controls were lovely and responsive. The action may have gotten a tad repetitive as the game went on but it was still a wonder to behold for it's time.

Starfox 64 was an absolutely gorgeous looking game and easily in my top five N64 list. Some of the levels were brilliantly designed... especially the one that was robbed unashamedly from Independence Day but nobody cared because it was that awesome! It was a much less challenging game than the original but a varied choice of path to the end level kept the replayability level high.

NeoCracker

01-31-2013, 02:27 AM

Well, I’m a day later then normal, but meh. Here is the next set of games ot discuss!

Let's see if I can provoke a defense from Raistlin. :p

94. Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Gamecube/Wii)
      To start with, this is based soley of the Gamecube version, so the Wii controls have no impact on my review of this game. And like with Disgaea 2, it should probably be a couple spots lower, but only a couple. :p

      That said, this game looks great. The designs are all spot on, feeling like advanced versions of Ocorina’s designs. Minda also comes in as Link’s greatest fairy side kick to date. She manages to be not annoying, and a pretty damn good character.

      This game also saw the addition of sword techniques Link could learn, as well as the Wolf form to change up the gameplay. I think it’s a bit of an under rated title, at least as far as how a lot of Zelda fans disliked this one.

      However, there are two things which drag this game down below other Zelda’s that will be on this list. The first one is how easy this game is. There were barely any points in this game I felt like I was trying. From monsters to Puzzles this has been the easiest Zelda to beat by far. Even with the most epic final boss set ups of any Zelda game, the lack of challenge really kills the feel that the fight could have had. The ease of the puzzles leads into my second point. The game gives you so many new toys and gadgets, but never does it feel like they get much use. So many new options, yet so little is actually made of it all.

      On a whole though, it’s still a great time to be had, and if you ahven’t yet it’s worth checking out. Mind you, I say all this not having played Skyward Sword.

93. Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits (PS2)
      Being the only Arc the Lad I have completed, for quite a few reasons this game really works. It takes place by going back and forth between two groups, each led by one of the brothers.

      What works here is how polorizing each story is in nature and goal, and yet how well they intertwine. It shows the worlds of both humans and deamons of the planet very well, helping you to understand both sides of the conflict in the world.

      Complete with a solid combat system, albeit rather exploitable at times, and a cast of great characters on both sides, there really isn’t a way to go wrong with this game. Give it a go if you ever get the chance.

92. Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete (PS1)
      Confession time, since starting this thread Lunar was quite a few spaces higher (Like, 10 or so) before I played through Lunar again recently. And dear god. Oh dear god is this game cheesey. Before I go off on it hough, I would like to point out the awesome battle system in this game. Easily the best aspect of it.

      Now, however, to go off on it. Every single character in this game, heroe’s and villains alike, are very stereotypical. They do very little, if anything at all, to distinquish these characters from thier archetypes. You have the good hearted thief in Kyle, the goody goody main character, the good hearted tom boy Jessica, the shy and good hearted Maya, and then there is.... Nash. Nash is a complete dick but with a good heart.

      And I find it hilarious that this is one of Raistlin’s favorite games in considering he’s doing his Sexism in final fantasy. Not so much a dig at him for liking the game, but considering this game is far more sexist is highly amusing to me. At least three times Jessica and Maya need saved throughout the plot, two intances being The Black Dragon Cave as well as The Frontier when Mia and Jessica get caught. They serve no realy plot at any point in the game, and have only served as people to be rescued.

      This isn’t getting into the fact that the entire point of this plot is to save Luna, and one fo the main villainess’s of the game’s motivations is her love of Ghaleon. For that matter, 3/5 of hour heroes are doing all of this for a woman. It feels as if the world altering plot line takes a back seat to this. Hence why the game is so unabashadly cheesy.

      But you know what? I still enjoy it. The characters my be nothing but walking stereo types, but they do a good job in those roles. You still manage to walk away liking them all. And the plot may be cheesy as all hell, but you can still get behind it. Perhaps this is because it is shamelessly thus, and isn’t tryin gto be anything else.

      So, if you have a fair amount of tolerance for cheesyness and sappiness, you would probably find yourself enjoying this game. :p

Raistlin

01-31-2013, 03:14 AM

Hey, FFVII is terrible on the sexism issue too, but it's still one of my favorite FFs. :p

And I will qualify this with the fact that I have not played through Lunar since I was 18 or 19 (though I did play through it several times up until that point), so I may also give it a worse rating now. But the game is just pure fun and non-stop entertainment. Oh yes, the characters and plot are cheesy, but they're also lovable and engrossing (except Nash. Fuck him). The Alex-Luna story is very touching, Ghaleon is a great villain (I would rank him above any FF villain from the numbered series), and the game is just put together beautifully. The animated cutscenes, the voice-acting (probably the only time I've thought voice-acting has substantially improved an RPG), the witty dialogue, everything. And the ending! One of the best JRPG endings ever.

True, Jessica, Mia, and Luna all fit feminine archtypes, and it seems like every guy needs a girl (except Ramus, poor filthy rich bastard). And the game is overwhelmingly sappy at times. But I just love it. I may very well be biased due to the nostalgia factor, but I still think it is a fun and enjoyable game.

I actually thought the battle system was far from the best aspect of Lunar: SSSC, but it is still fun. The last time I played the game I actually used the Gameshark because I really just wanted to experience the story without any hassle. Though there is plenty of good dungeon crawling, too.

NeoCracker

01-31-2013, 03:40 AM

For the life of me, I cannot think of a game more sexist then Lunar. :p

I disagree on the ending, if only because when it ends there is a lot the game leaves to desire.

The biggest being you end the game knowing virtually nothing about why The Frontier is in it's current state. They screwed up, got punished, and then the goddess turned herself into a human and no longer possessed the ability to help them...

What did they do that was so terrible? XD

But yes, it had surprisingly good voice acting. I think plenty of later games did it better, but considering it's time frame it was outstanding in that regard.

Oddly enough, I think if the game tried to be more clever though, it would have failed miserably. :p

chionos

01-31-2013, 04:03 AM

I agree that with you about Twilight Princess on basically every point, Neo. It's underrated certainly. I agree that the game was quite a bit easier than previous installments, but I don't know whether I find this a good or bad thing. Mainly because TP was one of the first real games that I played with my daughter and the lower difficulty allowed her to actually play the game. On a personal level, though, daddy definitely wanted the game to be harder. ;)

I want to defend SSSC, but I have a feeling that, like Raistlin, I'm being affected by the nostalgia bug. All I have are good memories of the game. =) Oh, other than the ridiculous hot springs scenes. Those just made me feel creepy.

If nothing else, though, it's a standout example of how to localize a game. The English script is fantastic.

I tried to get into the AtL series, but a few hours in a bug ruined my gamesave (couldn't enter a room iirc) and I just couldn't drum up enough enthusiasm to start all over again.

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 06:00 AM

And I forgot to do the first set of bad games prior to starting the top 100, so I'll just throw it in here real fast. In total I'm only going to have 13 games on this list, as a result there will only be two more sets here and there. :p

Like my favorite games, this probably won't cover all games I've played and hated. Most of those just kind of fade off for me outside of some titles. :p

13. The Elder Scrolls III/IV
      You know, were it not for the love these games get I would probably not have thought to put this on my worst of game list. I will give the game credit for the shear volume of stuff one can do in these games. That was an accomplishment that the creaters of these games that deserves praise. It had a certain level of ambition that you don’t often see. Not so much in plot, but for the amount of things you could do in the world, and the shear open nature of it.

      That sad, these games feel horribly unfocused. At no point playing them did I ever feel the main plot was really that important to get too. I always felt like I was some guy whose sole purpose in this world was to run around doing stuff. I’d never felt like doing anything was at all rewarding.

      And this may be the fact I’ve only played on Console and not PC, but the control’s and mechanics were never that good. Neither game did I enjoy their magic systems either. Between poor mechanics and a world that failed entirely to emmurse me, the games always felt like wasted potential. Hell, Skyrim I find the best of the lot, that said I wouldn’t willingly pay for it. I just got lucky in that my friends are massive fans of these games, so I at least got to enjoy playing Skyrim through once, about all the game really deserved.

12. Shin Megami Tensai: Persona
      Well, after pissing on the WRPG fanatics, I guess I may as well take a piss in Wolf’s Cheerios now. What better way to start the pissing then Person? Mind you, this was the PSP version, as I never played it on the PS1.

      First and formost, oh god. This is cheesy. Not Lunar Cheesy, but it almost feels as if the game doesn’t realize it’s cheesy. The best example of this I have is the line “You must be the greatest in Japan!” spoken by a dying butler I had never met before. It was a bizzare line delivered at I time I felt the game was trying to have a dramatic moment, but the shear nonsense of that line, which gets no other context in the scene mind you, killed the drama.

      This game has some bad Dialogue, but what bothered me more was the first person view for walking down dungeons. Even back in the day I hated this view for moving through dungeons. This is a rather personal problem, but god does it bother me. Were it one or the other I would be fine, but both just bother the hell out of me.

      However, it has a solid battle system, though I can’t recall to much on it, so if he want’s I’ll let Wolf describe why the Battle System is good. :p

11.Folk Lore
      This game is a trap. I played for like, 5 hours straight upon getting this game, thinking it was good. However, Twenty minutes after putting it down I thought “God, that game is smurfing stupid.”

      The world takes you off at first for it’s more bizarre nature, but if you start thinking it’s kind of ugly. Not in a good way either. The mechanics are poor and the story is just boring as all hell. Stay away from this one.

9. Deus Ex: Human Revolution
      This is not a fair placing of this game. At all. To be fully honest this game should probably have been in my top 100 somewhere. The customiztion is well done, the story is great, and you are given a lot of options. Hell, even the different enviroments all look amazing. There were only two things about this game that were bad.

      The difficulty on this game quickly dissapates once you get the hang of it. I played on hard my first play through, and after the first hour I had little to no problems walking through this game, the first boss fight being the only real challange. This wasn’t a big detractor, but still bothered me. Now we get to what was the reason to hate this game.

      I really try not to let one or two small things, or even one big thing kill a game for me. Deus Ex I couldn’t do it though. This game has one of the most piss poor excuses of an ending I have ever seen. Well, kind of, it doesn’t really have an ending. It ends with you making a choice, then speculating on what might have happened. He even makes sure to point out this speculation is just what he thinks. You don’ t even get a hint as to what happens following the end. All of the decisions you have made throughout the game, as a result, are completely smurfing pointless. The worst bit was one of the endings is quoting Albert Einstein to make all technology sound bad, which was just plain smurfing infuriating.

      So yeah, smurf this game. Yet still I could recomend you play it because it’s very well made. :p

Wolf Kanno

02-01-2013, 06:08 AM

I disagree about Twilight Princess being too easy, I mean I blew through Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time pretty quickly and in OoT's instance the crappy controls are often the bigger issue than the game being challenging. So to me, TP is probably just about right in terms of difficulty with the rest of the series. It also just has a better plot and characterization than the rest of the games I've played.

As for not liking P1, well, even I admit its a bad game but I actually really like the plot if only because I look at it like the B-Movie that this game really is. It is hilariously bad, and playing the heavily Americanized PS1 version is even funnier. The combat system on the other hand is interesting on paper but terrible in execution and I am still happy the later games dropped it like a rock.

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 06:10 AM

...You know I was hoping for something more out of you Wolf, not this 'I'm mostly in agreement with you' crap. :(

Wolf Kanno

02-01-2013, 06:20 AM

It's Persona 1 man, read any thread I've talked about it except maybe the one when it came out, and you'll see I tell people to avoid it and play it later only if you feel obligated to. Its not a great game, and even when I played it, I often wondered how it somehow managed to spawn much better sequels.

I do greatly disagree with Twilight Princess, its my favorite 3D Zelda game, but to be fair, I have yet to play Majora's Mask or Wind Waker, so its not like I can give an informed opinion since I haven't actually played the whole series. :p

Lunar is disappointing too because I do really love the games but its also been 10 years since I played them, so I don't know how well they've aged and maybe if I did replay them, I would come to a similar conclusion.

I'll probably get testier when you start posting games I don't feel should be as high up. I already know we're going to come to blows about P3 vs. P4, as well as some of the Xenosaga titles. I'm already expecting Xenogears to show up in your "Worst List" but we've had that talk...

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 06:22 AM

The diffuculty is the only thing really keeping TP down the list for me though, so that doesn't really leave much room for us going back and forth. :p

And get to those two games, they are great!

Pete for President

02-01-2013, 08:36 AM

I really try not to let one or two small things, or even one big thing kill a game for me. Deus Ex I couldn’t do it though. This game has one of the most piss poor excuses of an ending I have ever seen. Well, kind of, it doesn’t really have an ending. It ends with you making a choice, then speculating on what might have happened. He even makes sure to point out this speculation is just what he thinks. You don’ t even get a hint as to what happens following the end. All of the decisions you have made throughout the game, as a result, are completely smurfing pointless. The worst bit was one of the endings is quoting Albert Einstein to make all technology sound bad, which was just plain smurfing infuriating.

Ah, Deus Ex: HR's ending: probably the most misunderstood ending of all time. I think it's great and for good reasons. And you sir, should think again.

"All of the decisions you have made throughout the game, as a result, are completely smurfing pointless." Yes. That is the point. Throughout the game you have been nothing but a pawn and that will never change. Thought you could change the world? A normal man has no power at all, much like it is in the real world. It's a lesson. In the end, no-one controls the masses except the super rich. It is how it works in Human Revolution, it is how it works in RL.

And that is what the endings do perfectly; they link to our real world and bring problems to light.

The speeches are hypotheses. Not about what could happen in Deus Ex universe, but what could happen in our own world. They are intended to make you view the issue of man meddling with nature from different perspectives. They make you think. They make you wise. And that is why the endings to this game are amazing; they are education, not entertainment. Any person who thinks otherwise is obviously a sheep in the herd not questioning issues in our society, the way we use technology, how we try to play god and interfere with nature, and ultimately; who controls us.

Loony BoB

02-01-2013, 09:28 AM

Oh man, I hope you linked Pike to you placing Morrowind in the "worst 13 games of all time" list. I mean, I think she might simply 'pop' with disbelief.

Anyway. I see your point, Pete, but that doesn't make the ending any better. Also, I disagree with your point. ;) You say...

Thought you could change the world? A normal man has no power at all, much like it is in the real world. It's a lesson. In the end, no-one controls the masses except the super rich.
...and then, in the end, it is indeed the character that goes around changing the world throughout the entire game. You are the one that not only brings down the super rich, you are also the one that gets to dictate how the public hear about the end result. In the end, you, one man who is not in the super-rich institution, are changing the world. You did it all. The only thing is, you don't get to see how the world will react. And that for me ruins the game. You don't know what happens once you press that button and that is like saying it would be really interesting if Lord of the Rings ended at Rivendell with the council imagining what might happen if they took different actions. That wouldn't be interesting. We're not here for a philosophy lesson, we're here to play the role of a man in a game and when he presses that button, he witnesses what happens next, and despite playing the role and dictating his actions throughout the game, don't witness what he witnesses.

It's smurfing diabolical and despite really enjoying DE:HR, I believe it's one of the worst if not THE worst ending I've ever come across in a game.

I think I'd actually prefer it if they just ended it with the press of a button and that was it, roll credits.

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 09:54 AM

Wow.... Just wow. :p

Ah, Deus Ex: HR's ending: probably the most misunderstood ending of all time. I think it's great and for good reasons. And you sir, should think again.

:roll2

"All of the decisions you have made throughout the game, as a result, are completely smurfing pointless." Yes. That is the point. Throughout the game you have been nothing but a pawn and that will never change. Thought you could change the world? A normal man has no power at all, much like it is in the real world. It's a lesson. In the end, no-one controls the masses except the super rich. It is how it works in Human Revolution, it is how it works in RL.

This entire point falls apart when you take into account the level of impact your action at the end would have to cause. Exposing the truth of the illuminati to the world, destroying the illuminati and every trace of their existance, or basically choosing one of two radically different people to hand over the future of the Illuminati to. You, as an individual, have a massive impact on what will happen to this world.

The Reason I say it's pointless is the game just decides not to tell you what that impact ends up being, it doesn't really even give you an Idea of what could happen. It's 'Well, I picked this path for this vague set of reasons, lets hope for the best'.

And that is what the endings do perfectly; they link to our real world and bring problems to light.

The speeches are hypotheses. Not about what could happen in Deus Ex universe, but what could happen in our own world. They are intended to make you view the issue of man meddling with nature from different perspectives. They make you think. They make you wise. And that is why the endings to this game are amazing; they are education, not entertainment. Any person who thinks otherwise is obviously a sheep in the herd not questioning issues in our society, the way we use technology, how we try to play god and interfere with nature, and ultimately; who controls us.

Alright, time destroy one ending after another. :p

Firstly, going with Darrow's plan. The monologue states that Darrow understood the destructive nature technology can bring about and that we should be careful with it. Well, good point and all, but this is seriously a 'no trout sherlock' moment. There is nothing deep or insightful here. Just a bunch of dialogue to state a point that's pretty damn well understood.

Next we have Sarrif. The premise that 'creativity and ingenuity have moved mankind forward, and that we should keep doing it, for the chance of overcoming all of our weakness's. The problem here is once again, we come to the 'no trout' moment of all this. I don't think a person alive doesn't think technology advancing is something done for the good of man kind, even if it doesn't always work. We are left with Sarrif's ending once again offering us no education, but simply pointing out something the vast majority of humanity has long since figured out.

Now we have Taggart. This ending proposes that perhaps that absolute freedom that Sarrif pushed for in the advancement of technology could be bad if people let to go loose, and perhaps people can't be trusted with such power. It puts forth the Idea that maybe the power should be guided by a select few, but that you run the risk of them becoming corrupt. For a third time, this is nothing new.

The final Idea, for sinking the entire place, is that neither he nor anyone else in this place, has the right to decide this for humanity. Which I find funny, because this spits in the face of the Idea of 'No one controls the mass's but the super rich' because you pretty much destroy all of that which controls them with the destruction of this place. If that was the entire point of this game, this ending as an options undermines that point entirely.

The point being, it doesn't make you view it from different perspectives, it simply tells you the perspectives are there. It offers nothing new to these perspectives that someone who spent a good thirty minutes on the internet couldn't discover. If there was some grand insightful message this game tryed to get across, it is at best shallow. This game does a piss poor job at questioning issues. All it says is 'Well, there certainly are issues, think about it'.

This game offers me absolutely nothing in that regard, and worse yet if that's the intention it means they didn't even bother trying to give you an ending to the story at hand. Which again, if the point was you were a pawn who had no power or control over what happened, is completely undermined by the simple fact you have the choice to do something that would, without a doubt, completely smurfing alter everything about the entirety of the world.

Finally, 'How we try to play god and interfere with nature, and ultimately, who controls us?" Well yes we play god and interfere with nature, Nature is out to smurfing kill us. We don't really have a choice but to interfere with nature if we want to survive. The thing is, the game doesn't really offer us any reason to think we are going to far with it. There is the side effects of Cyber they brought up, but considering that was a problem curable by virtue of our hero existing, that's not really a valid point.

Tl;dr Version:

It offers nothing new to these grand Ideals, does a troutty job at saying one little pawn like you can't change anything since you are given the ability to change everything due to your drive forward, and the Idea that even in reality we meek and poor folks can do nothing against the evil tyranny of the rich is smurfing stupid. If we assume that's true, the message itself would be pointless to put out there anyway as it would do nothing but depress us. And all this pseudo-intellectual nonsense keeps us from getting an actual ending.

Pete for President

02-01-2013, 10:20 AM

Anyway. I see your point, Pete, but that doesn't make the ending any better. Also, I disagree with your point. ;) You say...

Thought you could change the world? A normal man has no power at all, much like it is in the real world. It's a lesson. In the end, no-one controls the masses except the super rich.
...and then, in the end, it is indeed the character that goes around changing the world throughout the entire game. You are the one that not only brings down the super rich, you are also the one that gets to dictate how the public hear about the end result. In the end, you, one man who is not in the super-rich institution, are changing the world.

Ah, interesting discussion :p

I agree that Jensen bringing down the super rich - or at least a part of it - makes him a quite extraordinary ordinary man. This however, (I believe as the endings show) only barely changes the course already set by the rich. Unlike many other videogames, the hero Jensen can not bring the world a happy ending. All Jensen can do is pick a direction already plotted by the rich and watch. That makes him still pretty powerless.

We're not here for a philosophy lesson, we're here to play the role of a man in a game and when he presses that button, he witnesses what happens next, and despite playing the role and dictating his actions throughout the game, don't witness what he witnesses.

I think this is somewhat of a personal preference. Personally I like it when a game goes deeper than just entertainment, so you could say I am here for a philosophy lesson but I understand if others are not. I like to think of games similar to books and movies; there's arthouse/literature to enlighten the mind, blockbusters to entertain, etc. To me DE:HR is in the arthouse category and it's open endings sparked thoughts and theories long after finishing the game. I doubt I would have that if the ending contained closing facts rather than open speculations. But for players who considered DE:HR as entertainment all way through I can understand the endings don't really meet expectations.

Edit: will get to your post later, Neo!

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 10:47 AM

If you want an even simpler explanation, the 'intellectual' attempt fails for me because it offers me absolutely nothing I haven't heard or thought of before. :p

Pike

02-01-2013, 04:16 PM

Madame Adequate

02-01-2013, 04:23 PM

And you people say I have bad taste.

Loony BoB

02-01-2013, 04:32 PM

I agree that Jensen bringing down the super rich - or at least a part of it - makes him a quite extraordinary ordinary man. This however, (I believe as the endings show) only barely changes the course already set by the rich. Unlike many other videogames, the hero Jensen can not bring the world a happy ending. All Jensen can do is pick a direction already plotted by the rich and watch. That makes him still pretty powerless.

We're not here for a philosophy lesson, we're here to play the role of a man in a game and when he presses that button, he witnesses what happens next, and despite playing the role and dictating his actions throughout the game, don't witness what he witnesses.

I think this is somewhat of a personal preference. Personally I like it when a game goes deeper than just entertainment, so you could say I am here for a philosophy lesson but I understand if others are not. I like to think of games similar to books and movies; there's arthouse/literature to enlighten the mind, blockbusters to entertain, etc. To me DE:HR is in the arthouse category and it's open endings sparked thoughts and theories long after finishing the game. I doubt I would have that if the ending contained closing facts rather than open speculations. But for players who considered DE:HR as entertainment all way through I can understand the endings don't really meet expectations.
While this is all true, that doesn't mean they can't actually put together a proper cutscene showing what happens immediately afterwards. They could show the hours, the day or two. They don't have to show the human reaction, to be honest - what they do need to show is your character carrying out the act and what he witnesses in the immediate aftermath. They could have the exact same words for the ending, said by Jensen in a narrative, as we watch him press the button, watch him die/escape/whatever. But we see nothing, and that for me is unaccepatable.

DE:HR didn't really strike me as a philosophical game. It was predominantly about the action, the exploration, the story (which was part philosophy, but not 100%). Perhaps this kind of ending would have been better for a movie, but even then, you should still see the immediate aftermath of the button-pressing. If you think about it, the fact that so many people were too busy being enraged at the ending actually means the philosophy was completely lost on it's target audience. The kind of game they made - stealth/action/FPS/RPG - is not one that is normally targeted towards the philosophers of the world! If they wanted the people who were going to play this game to enjoy the ending and actually take in the philosophy, they would have put it in after showing the immediate aftermath, allowing people to have a sense of conclusion regarding Jensen's story. And this is Jensen's story, we need to remember that. We weren't seeing what was going on at the far ends of the Earth, we were only seeing what Jensen saw. Should we get a conclusion as to what happened to the world? Perhaps not. Should we know what happened to Jensen? Yes.

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 06:17 PM

Okay I was linked here so I guess I have to post something xD

I don't have much of a beef with this to be honest. Sure I obviously disagree about placing TES III on a list of "worst games" (go ahead with TES IV, idgaf), but here is the thing with TES. TES works if you love digging into some ridiculously in-depth lore and really, really getting into bizarro metaphysical stuff that forums are still arguing about ten years later. TES works if you like to spend hours learning about a fictional culture so you can roleplay as an everyday joe. If you don't want to do that; if you don't want something that lacks a really straightforward linear path, then you are not going to enjoy TES.

Morrowind is not a breakthrough RPG on a technical level. Not by a long shot. I would even hesitate it to call it an RPG. It's a universe that contains some incredibly complex and detailed cultures within (as I wrote about recently at my blog here (http://www.theandroidscloset.com/2013/01/on-morrowind-and-non-western-fantasy-cultures/)) and the point is for that universe to be a sandbox. People who are not looking for that in a game will not enjoy Morrowind. Different strokes.

I actually love learning about culture and lore. The problem is that's great to supplement I world I am interested in, but I'll get to that in a future game on this list. :p

The thing is if the plot can't grab me, which Skyrim actually managed to do in two regards. The amazing opening with Rolof for one, it showed both a strong person as well as this devotion to his culture and people, the Nords, in a way that showed something profound about the Nords. It made me really want to know more about the conflict going on in Skyrim and to learn of both sides. (The dropping of the ball on this was another story entirely though. ;p)

I also loved the Kajeet book you find that details the culture of Kajeet's to people who would be their allies. At first glance it may have felt like it made no sense and was entirely a contradictory description, but if you take a bit to read into it you'll start to get a good idea at the mindset of these people, and the weird speak of it makes sense. However this didn't engross me in the land of Skyrim, all it did was make me wish the game were to take place in Elswhere (Probably spelled that wrong.) and didn't really have relevance to anything going on anywhere in Skyrim.

And you people say I have bad taste.

You do. :p

Madame Adequate

02-01-2013, 06:30 PM

Says the guy who thinks Morrowind and Human Revolution belong on a "Worst games" list :eyebrow:

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 06:33 PM

Says the guy who thinks Morrowind and Human Revolution belong on a "Worst games" list :eyebrow:

In my defense, I fully acknowledge the good of HR, and that I'm being horribly unfair when I put it on the worst of list. :p

And in a slight continuation of my last post, if there was a game in elswhere I would totally buy that ElderScrolls. ;P

Madame Adequate

02-01-2013, 06:45 PM

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 06:51 PM

Also the fact that there's plenty of references to places you don't go and stuff you don't see is sort of the definition of lore-building and world-building. Morrowind doesn't hold your hand, but when you find a book about some Dwemer ruins chances are you can go there if you pay attention.

The problem I had with that is the same thing with Lost Oddysy's Thousand Years of Memories. I'm sitting here reading these cool stories, but then I can help but feel I'd much rather be doing that then what it is I'm doing now. That's something that pulls me out of a game.

I do like when these random things you find may actually lead to something in world, or additional information on the goings on of whats around you. That is something I really appreciate in these games. It's when so much of it has nothing to do with whats around me, it starts feeling pointless after a while.

Slothy

02-01-2013, 07:09 PM

And you people say I have bad taste.

Obviously more than one person can have bad taste. I've got enough hate for both of you don't worry.

Bolivar

02-01-2013, 08:41 PM

Neo can I ask you, in a totally non-accusatory way, how long you played Morrowind & Oblivion for? I'm not suggesting you didn't give them a chance, rather, in my experience, these are games that take some time to get the boulder moving, but once its going, you can't pull yourself away from the game and you get "just one more quest" syndrome. It just takes time to really build up that setting.

I understand your frustration with the appreciation it gets, the only thing that ever really bothered me were the assertions that open-world action-oriented Western games are better than linear, tactical Japanese games (of course no one puts it in terms like that). To me, the praise that's heaped on the open-endedness is a little misplaced, as you can either have a long, engrossing single player story and a decent amount of side quests, or a billion sidequests and a decent amount of main story. I can't say which is better inherently, especially since some of my favorite JRPGs like DQVIII and FFXII have massive, sprawling, explorable open worlds.

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 08:49 PM

About 6-7 hours into each game. :p

Ultima Shadow

02-01-2013, 09:03 PM

Personally, I find the TES games to be the most awesome during the first 20-30 hours or so, basically. It's mainly because I find it exciting to go explore a huge world that I know nothing about... and the more I explore and find out about the world, the less there will be left to uncover.

Though the one thing that I generally like much more in JRPGs than in the TES games are the characters. Even though you can have companions in Skyrim, I never really felt they really added much. The lack of deep interactions and relations to other characters just gives the game a bit of an "empty" feeling after a while. Even the most cheesy and poorly written JRPGs still tend to have interactions between main characters that feel somewhat meaningful. In Skyrim you can even marry people, yet all the character you marry will really ever do is walk around your house and repeat the same lines over and over. It just doesn't really add anything in the end.

Bolivar

02-01-2013, 09:25 PM

The 20-30 hour mark is where it just starts getting really good for me. All these names and locations and histories are starting to make sense, I'm beginning to really impact the world and carve out my place in it, and now I'm getting exposed to quests that really dig deeper into the lore.

I'm with you on characters, though. It's not the characters, the story, or the quests that make these games great. Heck, even the actual playing them isn't all that great on a comparative level. It's some intangible that pulls it all together and allows you to escape into another world.

Pete for President

02-01-2013, 10:18 PM

Alrighty, found some time.

Exposing the truth of the illuminati to the world, destroying the illuminati and every trace of their existance, or basically choosing one of two radically different people to hand over the future of the Illuminati to. You, as an individual, have a massive impact on what will happen to this world.

As I said earlier commenting BoB's post, I feel like all these choices are paths set out by several rich men we deal with. Whichever you choose, to me Jensen still seems to be a pawn or go down with the ship. I also don't recall destroying any of the actual illuminati members during the game including it's endings, iirc they're still a level higher than the guys we take down. But if you do have evidence, please do tell.

The point being, it doesn't make you view it from different perspectives, it simply tells you the perspectives are there. It offers nothing new to these perspectives that someone who spent a good thirty minutes on the internet couldn't discover. If there was some grand insightful message this game tryed to get across, it is at best shallow. This game does a piss poor job at questioning issues. All it says is 'Well, there certainly are issues, think about it'.

I can agree to this to a certain level, problem being I don't feel they do a poor job questioning our ways with technology. Shallow, maybe, but only for the people who have educated themselves in the subject.

Nature is out to smurfing kill us.

This would be valid about 10.000 years ago. I'm pretty sure it's the other way around nowadays.

and the Idea that even in reality we meek and poor folks can do nothing against the evil tyranny of the rich is smurfing stupid.

It is stupid, but that doesn't mean it's not true. We should do something about it. I should. You should. Everyone should. But we don't. Why? Because we're taught right from birth that suffering is normal and our goal is to make money. Not change things.

If you want an even simpler explanation, the 'intellectual' attempt fails for me because it offers me absolutely nothing I haven't heard or thought of before. :p

Valid, although if the attempt of enlightening the unaware by showing even a small light on global issues means even the slightest to you, I still think it shouldn't be on the worst games list.

I think that is all for my plea.

While this is all true, that doesn't mean they can't actually put together a proper cutscene showing what happens immediately afterwards. They could show the hours, the day or two.

It would be nice as a supplement to the endings. TBH I was kind of curious to see what would happen to him and miss mad scientist who I've come to hate quite badly over the course of the game. Can't remember if I shot her in the head or not when the two meet at the baddies lab. Or is that even possible? Either way, I think I tried to at least.

DE:HR didn't really strike me as a philosophical game. It was predominantly about the action, the exploration, the story (which was part philosophy, but not 100%). Perhaps this kind of ending would have been better for a movie, but even then, you should still see the immediate aftermath of the button-pressing. If you think about it, the fact that so many people were too busy being enraged at the ending actually means the philosophy was completely lost on it's target audience. The kind of game they made - stealth/action/FPS/RPG - is not one that is normally targeted towards the philosophers of the world!

I can agree to this. Maybe if the ending wasn't as inaccessible the philosophy indeed may have better chance to have come across. Mixing bits of philosophy or wisdom in a game is a great way to open up some minds without the player actually knowing he's thinking about stuff. HR could've done it better, but I also just wish there were more games around that do this. I know the Metal Gear Solid games do this a lot, but any game-recommendations on the subject are welcome.

Raistlin

02-01-2013, 10:48 PM

Pike

02-01-2013, 11:28 PM

About 6-7 hours into each game. :p

Well no wonder you didn't like Morrowind. It doesn't get REALLY good until about 20 hours in. Then you're hooked for life. (I do personally think the first 20 hours are strong, but not nearly AS strong. Also that's when you're adjusting to the general sense of the game so I understand if it's difficult to get into.)

Madame Adequate

02-01-2013, 11:31 PM

EDIT: Hah, yes, Neo is about on par with Huxley now for "worst video game taste on EoFF."

I know you disagree with my FF9 and FFT opinions but this is a bit strong. It's pretty far from saying Morrowind is a worst game ever!

Old Manus

02-01-2013, 11:39 PM

It doesn't get REALLY good until about 20 hours in.Oh, woah, no. I'm not falling for that one again.

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 11:40 PM

I can understand not really enjoying Morrowind, but putting it on a worst games list is about as objectively wrong as you can get with video game opinions. And grouping Morrowind and Oblivion together as basically the same thing? xD

At no point playing them did I ever feel the main plot was really that important to get too.

That's because it isn't. You don't really seem to appreciate the distinction between JRPGs and WRPGs, outside of perhaps a purely intellectual recognition. The point of Morrowind, unlike JRPGs, is simply to explore in any manner you see fit. There's a main storyline that's there for you to get around to eventually, but that's just the longest quest among an infinite number of other ones available. With playtime, it's far more immersive than most JRPGs, because you're actually a part of the world and helping to shape it, instead of a glorified movie character out for a predetermined ride (though I play mostly JRPGs myself).

Fair enough if you don't enjoy that style of game. But it's incredibly far from a bad game on almost any level.

EDIT: Hah, yes, Neo is about on par with Huxley now for "worst video game taste on EoFF."

I can understand it's more about exploring the world, but again there's the point that the game likes to referance other parts of the world you'll never get to see, an dit always seems more interesting that whatever I'm doing. Even a lot of the quests just started feeling trivial and pointless. Says me, the guy who plays Harvest Moon. :p

Regardless, however, six hours is a long time to put into a game and get no enjoyment. And before you say more things like I don't appreciate what you can do in a WRPG, I'd bring up now New Vegas is going ot have a spot on my best of game list. But I'll get more into why I love that one more then any of the Elder Scrolls Games. :P

About 6-7 hours into each game. :p

Well no wonder you didn't like Morrowind. It doesn't get REALLY good until about 20 hours in. Then you're hooked for life. (I do personally think the first 20 hours are strong, but not nearly AS strong. Also that's when you're adjusting to the general sense of the game so I understand if it's difficult to get into.)

...Yeah, I'm not dumping 20 hours int a game if after the first six hours I'm still not enjoying myself. :p

Slothy

02-01-2013, 11:41 PM

Pike

02-01-2013, 11:50 PM

Calling a verdict on a game after a mere six hours is weird. I give myself 10+ at the very least to make judgement on a game. Often times I'll go on to beat it even if I find it average or poor (see: Oblivion)

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 11:54 PM

Had I ever paid for one of the games I probably would have beaten it. But I was in a position that it was always at a friends house I'd played them. If anyone would buy morrowind for me I'd glady give it at least 15 hours, though I doubt that will ever happen. :p

Pike

02-01-2013, 11:57 PM

I'll buy it for you next time it's on Steam flash sale. Won't be the first time I've gifted Morrowind to someone...

NeoCracker

02-01-2013, 11:58 PM

:love:

Do that and I'd give it more the 15 Hours, I'd straight beat the game. And not even just run straight through the plot. :p

Old Manus

02-02-2013, 02:00 AM

In light of recent events I wholeheartedly retract my previous comment.

NeoCracker

02-02-2013, 04:01 AM

I do want to say, before continuing on the favorite games list, I don’t think Elder Scrolls are anywhere near worst game ever. As I admitted first, were it not for the confusing amount of love for these games (Not the fact that people like them, it’s the extend they are liked specifically), it likely never would have registered to place. And were I to do an extensive list on these games as for my favorites, it would still be near the bottom of the list (So not as bad as the others), if not still the bottom. Regardless, I move on and back to the Favorite games!

And now for mindless violence... And something esle entirely

91. Bloody Roar (‬PSX)
      This game was awesome. It is, of course, a fighting game. A great, great fighting game. Like most of them, story isn’t really good. What it does have is bestial transformations. An assassin that transforms into a killer Mole? Awesome. Drag Queen turning into a fox? Also awesome. Beating ass as a bunny Woman? Kind of funny.

      Again this is somewhat hard to justify being on this list, as I can’t put an accurate finger on why it’s so fun. It’s visually great to watch, the controls are solid and characters are unique. I can’t give a solid answer as to why I got more joy out of this then Street fighter two, as it’s pretty much here for the same reasons as that is. I guess you could say it’s just ‘a little bit more’ in each area.

90. Twisted Metal ‬3 (‬PSX)
      This is the holy grail of Twisted Metal to me. I hear people say that thier favorite is Twisted Metal 2, but i coudl never figure out why. It comes with the games most managable controls, and has an aesthetic apeal greater then previous, and to me later, entries. (Okay, the cut scenes in the relaunch were stunnying, but I talk in terms of gameplay. :p)

      It was also the best single player experience for me. I loved every singe ending and seeing the twisted ways Callisto would screw with your wish. Each vehichle handled differently and had vastly different specials. Really, this game was amazing for it’s shear destructiveness alone, not to mention the previous things I mentioned. It really handles the need for wanton destruction and carnage.

89. Pokey and Rocky ‬2 (‬SNES)
      And now for the different, Pokey and Rocky 2. Never was able to get into the first, but the second one is glorious. Best played with a friend, the controls are simple and smooth, and it’s one of the more challenging SNES titles.

      I love the different areas, as they are fun and vibrant, and there’s a good amount of places to go. You end up with a variety of scenery, none of which is lacking. So you get solid game play in great environments.

      And when you finally beat that asshole of a final boss, it is such a satisfying feeling. That’s something I don’t get out of a lot of these old SNES games. If I’m arguing technically, games like Megam Man X and Mario are probably better, but none of them managed to feel as satisfying upon completion as Pokey and Rocky 2 did for me.

Bolivar

02-02-2013, 05:13 AM

I don't know why, but the post-SingleTrac Twisted Metal games got a really bad rep. I thought TM3 was a really great game and an improvement as well. Head-On is the best, though :cool:

Raistlin

02-02-2013, 05:15 AM

Bloody Roar was a fun game, though not in the same league as Street Fighter (admittedly I haven't actually played it since I was about 12-13). It had an interesting gimmick and executed it pretty well, and was overall just enjoyable.

Polnareff

02-02-2013, 11:19 AM

Pocky and Rocky 2.

And what's this mess about Bloody Roar being better than SF2? :colbert:

NeoCracker

02-05-2013, 10:36 AM

I liked it more cause I could play a killer assassin mole. I'm not trying to pretend it's the better game from a technical level. :p

You may start noticing a what kind of games inhabit most of my list at this point.

88:Robotreck (SNES)
      Oh Robotreck, a game that’s kind of hard to give much of a reason to be this high on the list, but I’ll give it my best shot anyway. It was fun designing your own robots to go into battle with. You’d have a lot of customization options while building your party, and thus quite a few ways to play.

      I enjoyed your own level was used to reflect your skill, meaning you had to reach certain levels to understand certain schematics. The world was fun an varied, and combat was solid.

      The Story and world got by mostly by having a simplistic charm to it though. It was rather simplistic in that regard. Mostly it was the custom designed parties and solid battle system that got me invested in the game.

87. Dragon Age: Origins (PS3/360)
86. Dragon Age 2 (PS3/360)
      Whats this, Dragon Age 2 is listed above 1? I’m aware this is fairly sac-religious to say, but I’ll get into that. First, something Like about this series in general. Both games offer you a lot to do, both main plot and otherwise. DA:O does a great job at using this to set up it’s world and characters. DA2 does as well, though the focus is more on giving life to the town you live in rather then anything larger, but I can still appriciate the effort, and love the environment for it.

      What I will always hate about 2, mind you, is how god awefully lazy the dungeon design is. Anyone who has played this, or even read about it, already knows what I mean. They reause the exact same 6 maps the whole game. This is inexcusable.

      Still, there are a couple things that keep 2 higher on the list for me. First and foremost is the characters. I love me some Oghren and Zevren, but DA2 simply has a better fleshed out cast, and superior dialogue all around. I adore the conversations between Merill and Varick. They are hilarious and do well to flesh them out as characters, and this really goes for eveyrone. (Well, except Fenris, but I won’t let this one ass hole ruin the rest of the cast for me. :p) They did, however, drop the Ball on Merill’s story when you never actually get to see what was on the other side of the mirror, but point in case she was a wonderful character.

      Also, the combat was a lot better, it had a faster pace and smooth control, allowing for just as much party control as the previous game. The cusotomization system also worked better for purposes of combat abilities. It’s a bit sad though non combat skills got shafted, but it’s a case of the good out weighing the bad.

      Finally comes the story. I actually really liked the story of 2. I loved the building tensions for both the Qunari and Mage Circle present throught parts one and two, and both of them get a big pay off. Anders Bomb was a huge moment. The best part is you can understand both sides of this struggle, even if it’s pretty clear the whole time the Templar leaders are kind of dicks.

      In the end, this wasn’t a story about some big world event, it was the rise of The Champion. So long as the final dragon age gives a real pay off to this, I’ll be satisfied. :p

Bolivar

02-05-2013, 10:04 PM

Dragon Age: Origins had the most boring dialogue I've ever seen in a video game. Having restarted certain sections, I also uncovered the ugly truth that 'player choice' was pretty much an illusion for the most part in the conversations. At first I was glad I had waited until I had a gaming PC to play the game, but then I learned the PC version's difficulty is ramped up. On many occasions, I was micromanaging the hell out of my characters just to scrape by and win battles I had lost countless times before. It just wasn't worth it; what's the payoff putting all this effort into winning battles if the story is boring as hell? A lot of choices were poorly handled, where if you let someone live you get a boon, but if you kill them you must suffer a detriment. Those bastards deserved to die, dammit. Why should I be punished for expressing myself?

So yeah, I abandoned the game and have no intention of checking out 2. Good thing about getting them on PC? I only paid $9.99 for the two.

Futan

02-05-2013, 10:41 PM

87. Dragon Age: Origins (PS3/360)
86. Dragon Age 2 (PS3/360)

You disgust me. :colbert:

Bubba

02-06-2013, 09:57 AM

I bought Dragon Age: Origins about a year ago I think and I still have it in the wrapper. It's on my list of games to get through but hasn't quite reached a high priority status yet.

NeoCracker

02-06-2013, 10:03 AM

You know, I did not expect such hatred of Dragon Age. :p

I will agree that some of the choices are a bit poorly handled, but I think the game had a fair amount of good Dialogue. It was a bit over the spectrum from boring, to rather well done. Best of all a lot of the different choices you make have a lasting impact on the world.

This is something 2 improved greatly on though. In addition to the two mentioned characters, Anders was amazing in DA2. Though saddly it feels as if, no matter the ending you go with, the outcome is the same. It sacrificed meaning in your choice for a stronger narrative, but I don't think it was a necessary sacrifice in this case.

Futan

02-06-2013, 12:58 PM

Oh, I guess I should clarify that you disgust me :colbert: for putting 2 ahead of Origins.

NeoCracker

02-07-2013, 11:28 AM

85. Soul Calibur ‬3 (‬PS2)
      On the whole, I was always more a fan of the 3D fighter then the 2D. Soul Calibur 3 is a fun example of the 3D fighter genre, complete with a cast growing from the original games.

      While not the smoothest running 3D fighter, there is a huge variety of characters, thought it is rather unbalanced. Still though, as most fighting games it’s best played with friends. Unlike others prior, it ahs a bit more effort put into the story, an effort I appreciate, even if they didn’t do that good of a job executing it.

84. Bahamut Lagoon (‬SNES/Japanese)
      This is the game I wish had an official release in the states. Bahamut Lagoon is an absolutely wonderful SRPG released on the SNES, and got a well done Fan Translation online.

      A fun story and world taking place upon a world of flying islands and dragons, it comes with great visuals and intriguing story. Also unique to the SRPG Genre is the ability to use your spells ot alter the battlefield in small ways, such as freezing water to make a bridge. Also melting the bridge to submerge enemy units that may be on them.

      Each unit also comes with thier own dragons that are up gradable in a variety of ways. The upgrade system can be a bit clunky, but on a whole servicable and fun. A great game for any SRPG fan out there.

83. Skies of Arcadia Legend (Gamecube)
      First off I never had a Saturn, so I didn’t play the original. Now that that’s cleared up, this game is awesome. Yet it is hard to say exactly why. It may be the most Clique’d game on this list, but in a way the game revels in this. It may be full of clique’s, but they are all so wonderfully well done.

      The characters themselves are so fun as well that it almost feels like you are playing through an RPG version of an Indiana Jones like action adventure. Discoveries to be made and fun adventures to be had, it makes up for a lack of anything new.

      The only real innovation is the Airship combat the game has to offer, which is fun as hell. Travel the world to grab a variety of crew members that offer different effects, it makes your ship the most customizable thing in the game. Also, Little Jack is the greatest ship there is. An airship that looks exactly like an old school pirate ship. Hell yes.

DownDiagonalLeftA

02-09-2013, 07:06 PM

I remember playing Skies of Arcadia around the time it came out. Dreamcast had a pretty good lineup around that time. I agree with what you said, its a pretty cliche game, but I remember always having fun and really enjoying it. I thought being able to customize a few things in your base was the coolest thing ever (this was before I had played any Suikodens), and the Airship combat was fun too. I also liked the whole exploration thing, and just the fact that you were air pirates. Air pirates!

NeoCracker

02-09-2013, 07:40 PM

Well, on to the next set!

82. Super Smash Brothers (‬N64)
81. Super Smash Brothers Melee (Gamecube)
80. Super Smash Brothers Brawl (Gamecube)

      You know, on a purely technical level I doubt this would compare with most other fighting games. It’s unbalanced as all hell, and there is a huge element of Randomness regardless of game, unless of course you turn off Items. I am honestly stumped this is a game that is taken so seriously at a tournament level. :p

      That said, there is a chaotic nature to these games that make them extremely fun. Being able to play as some of your favorite Nintendo characters and just pummel the crap out of your friends is extremely Satisfying. Even the single player modes are fun with their goofy atmospheres.

      It’s a series I felt got progressively better game by game, adding just a small bit each time to the gameplay, and adding new members to the Roster. They all kind of meld together for me in enjoyability though due to them being the same at the core, and once again my own view on gaming leaves me with a convenient chunk of games just lumped together. :p

      Anyway, I guess for the next couple days this thread is a ‘talk about Smash Bro’s’ thread! :monster:

Xannidel

02-09-2013, 07:43 PM

80. Super Smash Brothers Brawl (Gamecube)

Brawl was on the Gamecube? I need to call my Gamestop cause they lied saying it was a Wii exclusive.

Bolivar

02-09-2013, 09:04 PM

Honestly, I think a lot of the top competitive games get that way simply because a lot of people play them and, over-time, analyzed each mechanic down to an understandable metagame. Counter-Strike is definitely like that; 90% of the weapons are absolutely never used in competitive play, and half of the rest only come out with really creative buying strategies.

My favorite is Smash Bros. 64 because it doesn't have the unpredictable randomness the other games have, when one good player beats another you can understand and appreciate exactly why it happened. There's nothing better than a room full of your closest friends screaming "oh shit" over and over at the same time.

I understand why Melee is a lot of people's favorites, and I enjoy the crap out of both sequels myself. I'm surprised Brawl is the highest one on your list, I thought most people felt it was the weakest. I thought it tried too hard to make every level dynamic and that took away from the competitiveness of it.

Ultima Shadow

02-10-2013, 12:21 AM

81. Super Smash Brothers Melee (Gamecube)
This is probably the first time I really, really completely and utterly disagree with the placement of a game. It's in my personal top 10 and probably even top 5. :p

      You know, on a purely technical level I doubt this would compare with most other fighting games. It’s unbalanced as all hell, and there is a huge element of Randomness regardless of game, unless of course you turn off Items. I am honestly stumped this is a game that is taken so seriously at a tournament level. :p

Wrong. Well, it depends on the character, really. But melee has the potential to get much, much more technical than pretty much every other fighting game I've ever played with proper use of the right characters. Things such as waveshining and float-cancel allows for the possibility of advanced movements faster than a normal person's fingers are capable of inputs. On a basic level, it looks simple, but there is actually so many small little complex things and technical details that makes a world of a difference on a competitive level. The combos are also more "free". There are very few set combos that will always work in any situation, so you usually have to improvise depending on the positioning on the stage, the opponent's "directional influence" and such to do any decent combos, which means you have to make split-second decisions while comboing, rather than just sticking to a set combo you've got memorized.

And even though other characters can't compare to Fox's speed and technical capacity, almost all other characters can still be just as fast and advanced as the characters in other competitive fighters that were actually designed with competition in mind.

As for the lack of balance, well... yes, melee is unbalanced when comparing top to bottom. However, there is no single character that dominates everything. In high-level competitive play, you still see at least 7 different characters being played... which is more than in some other fighters I've seen. The balance is bad, but not so ridiculous that you can't beat the best character with the worst as long as you're a better player. You do see enough variance, and a former best player in the world used a character that wasn't even considered to be among the top 5.

Finally... the reason the game is being taken seriously on a competitive level, is because it's a skill-based game when played with tournament rules, has an incredible amount of depth, a huge set of characters who are all very different yet can all be played well... and it is still just a whole lot more fun than most other fighters. :p It has a freedom of movement that few other fighters can offer, yet is in no way lacking behind when it comes to strategic and technical depth.

My favorite is Smash Bros. 64 because it doesn't have the unpredictable randomness the other games have, when one good player beats another you can understand and appreciate exactly why it happened.
With the exception of items, pretty much everything in melee can be understood the same way. There are a few random factors on a few stages, but even the moving stages such as Rainbow Ride and Pokefloat are actually not random in the least, but perfectly predictable as long as you know the stage. Even the rising lava on that metroid stage has a specific time and pattern to it. Brawl is the only really random game in the series. :p

NeoCracker

02-10-2013, 01:10 PM

81. Super Smash Brothers Melee (Gamecube)
This is probably the first time I really, really completely and utterly disagree with the placement of a game. It's in my personal top 10 and probably even top 5. :p

You know, on a purely technical level I doubt this would compare with most other fighting games. It’s unbalanced as all hell, and there is a huge element of Randomness regardless of game, unless of course you turn off Items. I am honestly stumped this is a game that is taken so seriously at a tournament level. :p

Wrong. Well, it depends on the character, really. But melee has the potential to get much, much more technical than pretty much every other fighting game I've ever played with proper use of the right characters. Things such as waveshining and float-cancel allows for the possibility of advanced movements faster than a normal person's fingers are capable of inputs. On a basic level, it looks simple, but there is actually so many small little complex things and technical details that makes a world of a difference on a competitive level. The combos are also more "free". There are very few set combos that will always work in any situation, so you usually have to improvise depending on the positioning on the stage, the opponent's "directional influence" and such to do any decent combos, which means you have to make split-second decisions while comboing, rather than just sticking to a set combo you've got memorized.

And even though other characters can't compare to Fox's speed and technical capacity, almost all other characters can still be just as fast and advanced as the characters in other competitive fighters that were actually designed with competition in mind.

As for the lack of balance, well... yes, melee is unbalanced when comparing top to bottom. However, there is no single character that dominates everything. In high-level competitive play, you still see at least 7 different characters being played... which is more than in some other fighters I've seen. The balance is bad, but not so ridiculous that you can't beat the best character with the worst as long as you're a better player. You do see enough variance, and a former best player in the world used a character that wasn't even considered to be among the top 5.

Finally... the reason the game is being taken seriously on a competitive level, is because it's a skill-based game when played with tournament rules, has an incredible amount of depth, a huge set of characters who are all very different yet can all be played well... and it is still just a whole lot more fun than most other fighters. :p It has a freedom of movement that few other fighters can offer, yet is in no way lacking behind when it comes to strategic and technical depth.

My favorite is Smash Bros. 64 because it doesn't have the unpredictable randomness the other games have, when one good player beats another you can understand and appreciate exactly why it happened.
With the exception of items, pretty much everything in melee can be understood the same way. There are a few random factors on a few stages, but even the moving stages such as Rainbow Ride and Pokefloat are actually not random in the least, but perfectly predictable as long as you know the stage. Even the rising lava on that metroid stage has a specific time and pattern to it. Brawl is the only really random game in the series. :p

You know, I started checking into just what kind of characters could be found winning tournaments most often, started checking past winners from various tournaments, but then I found this in my search.

Meta Knight: Banned From Super Smash Bros. Brawl - IGN (http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/10/03/meta-knight-banned-from-super-smash-bros-brawl)

And I think my point was made. :p

Though to note, most people I was finding in the tournaments that get mentioned are almost exclusively people who used characters from the top 3 tiers, and every so often there was lower ranked person, but never from the bottom 2 or 3 tiers.

I definately agree though there is a lot of skill in SSB. Though I still don't think there is denying that the gaps between characters in these games is noticeably larger then a lot of other fighting games.

I also find it odd that it's competitive on the basis that competitive play see's no Item use, which was one of the core aspects of the game. I know people like playing without the items too, but it seems odd to me that one of the initial draws of the game has to go for competitive play. :p

Ultima Shadow

02-10-2013, 02:02 PM

You know, I started checking into just what kind of characters could be found winning tournaments most often, started checking past winners from various tournaments, but then I found this in my search.

Meta Knight: Banned From Super Smash Bros. Brawl - IGN (http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/10/03/meta-knight-banned-from-super-smash-bros-brawl)

And I think my point was made. :p

Though to note, most people I was finding in the tournaments that get mentioned are almost exclusively people who used characters from the top 3 tiers, and every so often there was lower ranked person, but never from the bottom 2 or 3 tiers.

I definately agree though there is a lot of skill in SSB. Though I still don't think there is denying that the gaps between characters in these games is noticeably larger then a lot of other fighting games.

I also find it odd that it's competitive on the basis that competitive play see's no Item use, which was one of the core aspects of the game. I know people like playing without the items too, but it seems odd to me that one of the initial draws of the game has to go for competitive play. :p
Not really, considering I was talking about Melee, not Brawl. While Brawl tried to be more balanced, it ended up being the least balanced game really. And even so, Metaknight was actually unbanned again... and the world's two best Metaknights got beaten by a Zero-Suit player (ZSS is 12th ranked character) at Apex 2013, a game event where one of the world's largest Brawl tournaments were held. This ZSS player ended up winning the whole tournament too, without losing a single set. :p

Back to melee... you rarely see low or bottom tiers make it all the way up, but as a matter of fact, they have seen top-level tournament play in recent days. Armada - the number 1 player who hasn't lost a single set to another european for 3 years and won every single large tournament he has gone to (including the biggest one in the US) in recent years, plays Young Link as his secondary and uses it as a Jigglypuff-counter. He has won grand finals with that young link. Last I checked, Young Link was 9th from the bottom. And the the most dominant player in the whole world uses him seriously. Armada also mains Peach, who is the 6th ranked character.

The american player Taj brought out MewTwo THE lowest tier character in the whole game against Armada's Peach in a winner's final, and while he lost, he managed to do a much better job with Mewtwo than he did with his Marth who is the 5th ranked character in the game. In fact, he even did manage to take one match from Armada with Mewtwo if my memory serves me right. He lost the set, but won one match with the bottom character against the best player in the world's main.

While the characters you see regulary on top in melee tournaments are the top 7, even 8 to 11 see frequent enough play to at least show up on pretty much every half-assed melee tournament you go to. And one of the better players in the world even mains Pikachu, who's 12th on the tier list.

...so yeah. I think (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sclzH9-FrTU) your point was just (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z07CzxeXMVs) proven false. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltK9sfN2xUE) :p

Perhaps the gap is still a little wider than in many other fighting games, but I have certainly seen other fighters with just about as bad balancing, while having less variety in characters and unique fighting styles available.

As for items, it might have been one of the intended appeals, but it was never what got me and many others to start playing the games. Even long before I got into tournament play, I used to just turn items off because they were random and annoying. And the random factor of items and utter lack of balance when it comes to some items is a very valid reason to not have them in tournaments. It would actually have been kinda ridiculous if items had been available in tournament play. So really... it makes perfect sense that items are turned off. I'm speaking for my self when I say this, but: melee is a lot more fun without items to begin with. :p

NeoCracker

02-10-2013, 05:15 PM

Not proven false, my point was that this was an odd game to end up being taken so seriously competively. You have proven nothing. :p

Really I don't think this game was meant to be taken seriously at all. It was a goofy mash up fighter game which happened because a creepy hand gave life to figurines to beat the shit out of each other, a game whose intent was a fun time fight between peoples favorite characters.

Somehow though, serious competition arose from it, and they put a lot more work into future balancing. (Still, the most balanced of them, Melee, still has a lot of balancing issues.)

Hell, certain stages in these games aren't even allowed for tournament fighting.

Since the first game, it's seems they have been trying hard to maintain a balance of the tournament loving crowd, and those who play it because of wacky shenanigans.

Ultima Shadow

02-10-2013, 06:46 PM

Not proven false, my point was that this was an odd game to end up being taken so seriously competively. You have proven nothing. :pI was referring to the part where you linked to Meta's ban in Brawl and said it proved your point about lack of balance, plus the thing about bottom/low tiers never being used in top-level play. :p

Really I don't think this game was meant to be taken seriously at all. It was a goofy mash up fighter game which happened because a creepy hand gave life to figurines to beat the trout out of each other, a game whose intent was a fun time fight between peoples favorite characters. Of course it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. However, since it is a game that offers pretty much all you could ask from a serious competitive fighter (I'm only talking about Melee now), while at the same time being original and to many a lot more fun, then why not? It's really just about playing a game to your maximum capacity, trying as hard as possible to win and see who's the best. As long as all big random factors are eliminated, I wouldn't really think it strange for just about any multiplayer game to see competitive play.

It also seems like a lot of "casual" players believe that people who play Melee on a competitive level don't actually have as much fun. But that's really not the case. I find it much more fun to compete to the maximum in just about any game than playing with only half my attention and "trying a little". The game is taken seriously because enough people like the game, want to test their skills in it and want to play as good as they can possibly play. It's a different way of enjoying the game, but if I were to say which ones I think enjoy the game the most out of casual and tournament players, I'd absolutely say tournament players.

Somehow though, serious competition arose from it, and they put a lot more work into future balancing. (Still, the most balanced of them, Melee, still has a lot of balancing issues.)

Hell, certain stages in these games aren't even allowed for tournament fighting.

Since the first game, it's seems they have been trying hard to maintain a balance of the tournament loving crowd, and those who play it because of wacky shenanigans.Yes, melee does have balancing issues. But like I said, low tiers and even the one and only rock-bottom character has seen serious high-level tournament play and gotten very far. And melee really isn't the only fighter where the top tiers are the most commonly used characters either.

The banning of stages isn't too strange, nor is it really an issue. :p

Also, Brawl felt like they were trying to push it away from competitive play completely and only towards the casual playing, considering how far they went just to eliminate all advanced tecniques and even added an obligatory random-factor that absolutely everyone - all casual players I've met too - hates: tripping.

NeoCracker

02-10-2013, 07:17 PM

Ultima Shadow

02-10-2013, 07:41 PM

Meta was brought up on the basis that the same things that made it strange to go competative still exist within the game, even after it's given a competitive focus. :p

I think it's odd, because you would imagine that balance would be very important for the tournament scene. The more unbalanced a game, the less likely common sense dictates a game would go that far.

Meta-Knights temporary banning shows that this game is far from fixing this problem.

Mind you, I have never said the game shouldn't be, or that it couldn't effectively be, played at a tournament level. Just that this game started off an unlikely canidate for it, and still has a lot of the elements that made it an unlikely candidate.

And I still say the Random Items made it an odd choice, on the basis that's the way the game was meant to be played, yet to play competitively you must eliminate that factor entirely. That almost feels like saying that you can play a game like Bloody Roar competitively, but you can't use your beast mode. (No Idea if that game ever had much a competitive scene mind you. :p)Balance is important. And there is enough balance among the top 7 characters that they all see almost equal amount of play, are played by an equal amount of good players and perform almost equally well on average. Yes, that's not even half of the cast, but 7 characters are still more than the amount of different characters I saw being played last time I went to a BlazBlue tournament. And the gap between these 7 most played and the next 5 characters on the tier list isn't all that big either. It's really just that less people play those characters, but there are still top-players who use them well and beat equally well-played top-tier characters with them. So, I really wouldn't say there is a big balance issue that far to be honest. At least 12 characters are certainly "available" at even the top-level. You only really see an issue when comparing top to bottom, yet even then there are weird cases of certain bottom/low characters doing well against high/top characters simply because their moves and style give a kind of coverage that just so happens to be very effective against certain top-level characters. Young Link vs Jigglypuff is a good such example. Jiggly is much better overall, but still struggles against Young Link because of how Young Link works. :greenie:

...and also, I have beaten quite a few equally good players with my Pichu. Just saying. :p

And well, Meta is still a Brawl character, and his temporary banning doesn't really say anything about Melee. :p

And yes, it did start off a bit unlikely, since it wasn't designed with any kind of competition in mind. However, I personally don't find it strange in the least that it is being played on a serious level.

Evastio

02-13-2013, 12:30 AM

Wow, EoFF too? I'm beyond sick of people raving about Melee's epicness and awesome competitive scene and how it's the best Smash Bros. game. I get enough of that looking at the SSB4 boards on GameFAQs trying to look for news and updates on the game.

...well Ultima Shadow, at least you're not being too extreme on the Brawl hating side of it at least (glares at GameFAQs), and I'm glad to see NeoCracker praising Brawl rather than saying it's the worst Smash Bros. game (and kudos to you for saying it's the best, rather than calling it the worst because it's not as competitive).

Also Bolivar, the group that complains about Brawl are a vocal minority (emphasis on the vocal), and it's still considered to be one of the greatest Wii games by many people. It sold 10 million copies worldwide (~3 million more than Melee).

Anyways, what really bothers me about the Melee praise is how much people overlook just how flawed and glitched the game is, and how much they complain about Brawl for fixing the glitches and exploits. I mean, people actually expected wavedashing to return? The sad part is that people are so attached to Melee that they've hacked Brawl to resemble Melee from the character menu select, all the glitches and exploits including wavedashing, making ledge grabbing harder (and no longer possible to do when facing the opposite direction of the ledge), and even getting rid of Falco and Ganondorf's changes that were implemented to declone them. These people are way too obsessed with Melee and hardly gave Brawl a fair chance. Worst of all is that they think SSB4 is magically going to fix all the "problems" Brawl had. Sakurai said himself that he'd never make another Smash Bros. game that required as much reflexes and focus as Melee (which I'm glad of, since Melee was pretty much the odd one out because it was so fast and characters fell like rocks) and I'm highly doubtful he'd bring back wavedashing and L-cancelling. Sakurai said the above in a Nintendo Everything article.

I'll pull off some things I said to MTKO about why I think the Brawl hate is unjustified:

Smash Bros. was never meant to be a competitive fighter, and to hate on Brawl because it isn't competitive and it's too simplified is quite unfair. Given elements like all stages having hazards in the original 64 versions (yeah, Dreamland's wind wasn't too bad, but that doesn't make it a completely neutral stage), items always showing up in most single player modes with no option to turn them off, and random factors in attacks like Luigi's Green Missile and Mr. Game & Watch's Judge, it shows that the randomness in Smash Bros is supposed to be a defining feature of the games.

Also, Smash Bros was always supposed to be a simple and easy fighting game for everyone to be able to learn easily, hence why all regular moves are done with one button rather than having two kick and punch buttons and special moves are done from one button rather than having inputs like down forward punch or back forward kick. I know what you're talking about with the changes made in Brawl, especially the highly reduced hitstun making combos harder to do. But in a game series where most people will be doing free for alls and not one on ones, reduced hitstun is pretty much necessary to make sure that someone doesn't get constantly juggled and comboed by other players, and that they have a fair chance of getting out of combos.

Sure, the gameplay of Brawl may have deteriorated to you, but many of those changes were implemented to give everyone a more balanced playing field, rather than favouring the highly skilled ones while leaving the less skilled in the dust. People can play Smash Bros. competitively if they want, but they should really keep in mind that it wasn't designed for that kind of play in the first place. That's why I find all the Brawl hate annoying, since many people hate it for not being as competitive when Smash Bros. wasn't meant to be competitive in the first place.

Also, Melee was ridiculously glitched. Many of the "advanced techniques" were nothing more than glitches and exploits: wavedashing, shine combos, L-Cancelling, yet people complain that Brawl removed them and call it "less competitive." And then there were the characters (Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link, Pichu, and Roy, and they practically share all move animations with their originals.) and stages (Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Dream Land, Yoshi's Island 64, and Fountain of Dreams all use the 1 giant platform and 3 smaller platform layout) that were just riddled with clones. The AI in Melee is just sad: characters doing nothing but jabs, Ganondorf doing nothing but Dark Dive 80% of the time, Luigi never using the Super Jump Punch to recover.

As for the balance, of course every game will be unbalanced in the competitive scene, but Melee is the worst balanced in casual and single player. At least Brawl Ganondorf and 64 Samus could do proficiently in Classic Mode on harder difficulties. Melee Bowser, Kirby, and Pichu? You get slaughtered and you can barely do any damage without taking a heavy beating first. Also, practically every casual player knows in Melee that Pichu and Kirby are ridiculously weak. But not many casual people that play Brawl or 64 would tell you that Ganondorf or Samus is weak.

I guess I'll try to wrap it up. I'm not saying that Melee is a bad game (though I'm tempted to after seeing all the nostalgia-driven savage Melee fanboys on GameFAQs and other sites), but people should really stop worshipping it and saying Brawl is a bad game just because it isn't Melee. Complaints about Brawl from Melee fanboys are just ridiculous (even ranging from "Brawl even did the menu layouts worse than Melee" and "Melee's Adventure Mode was better" when it was just a poorly veiled attempted at making a second Classic mode and calling it an "All New Adventure Mode"). I know I'm being harsh towards Melee (though compared to how harsh Melee fanboys are towards Brawl, I'm practically being a Melee fanboy myself), but people should really stop praising Melee and bashing Brawl as if it was the sole existance of their life.

NeoCracker

02-13-2013, 01:13 AM

I would continue this argument Shads, but then we are going to start getting into some odd arguments that are more about the communties that play these games rather then the games themselves, so I'll bow out of the discussion for now. :p

HOwever, one note I will make....

You only really see an issue when comparing top to bottom, yet even then there are weird cases of certain bottom/low characters doing well against high/top characters simply because their moves and style give a kind of coverage that just so happens to be very effective against certain top-level characters. Young Link vs Jigglypuff is a good such example. Jiggly is much better overall, but still struggles against Young Link because of how Young Link works.

The Idea that a low tier, by happen chance of moveset alone, can more easily beat ONE higher tier character is the worst example you could possibly have given about whether a game is balanced or not. ;p

And this other bit is to Evastio. There is a huge competitive smash bro's scene, and Nintendo knows that. I really can't bring myself to be irritated with them for being upset that future installments were actually made to be less competitive. Considering how huge that scene got, it makes perfect sense I think that so much hate would be involved, and were I more into that aspect of the game I'd probably find myself irritated at Brawl as well.

Conveniently though I am not a tournament player, so it ends up mattering little to me. :p

Anyway, bit late in doing this, but on to the next set!

79. Terranigma
      Terrinigma gets onto this list almost through the shear force of it's concept. You are basically tasked with restoring the world to it's proper state, for lack of better word, and that involves slowly transforming the world you see around you into the world more like the real one. This comes with a lot of fun and unique things to see in the world.

      It also comes with a well made combat system with a fair amount of variety. Saddly though, it's nothing very original in that regard, and had it something more then a wonderful concept pushing it forward it could have ended up higher on the list. But hey, it also really had nothing wrong with it either, so it doesn't end up lower. :p

78. Borderlands
      I actually didn't like this game the first time I played it. I ended up not caring about what was going on around me and didn't really see a point in continuing forward with the plot. Though the second time I picked it up, with a different friend, it ended up being a lot of fun. The story was pretty lack luster, though there were a couple of great characters.

      What got fun though was the loot and wank. Not since Diablo 2 had playing for the sake of aquiring newer and nuttier weapons been so fun. And really, that's most of this games appeal for me, other then a fun art direction. Solid Mechanics and acquiring nutty Items. This may sound superficial, and were I to redo this list, it's another that would probably have ended up a couple places lower, but hey, great times anyway. :p

Bolivar

02-13-2013, 07:13 AM

Evastio, I salute you for sticking up for Brawl; I don't dislike the game by any means and certainly not for the reasons the competitive scene gives. I've had a tun of fun playing it, again, the only real issue I have is that every level has to change on you, in a much bigger way than the windblowing of some of the N64 levels.

Can't say much on the latest entries except I'm still bewildered at how many games are coming before FFVII on this list...

Wolf Kanno

02-13-2013, 05:04 PM

I'm more appalled that Bloody Roar and Smash Bros were ranked higher than Street Fighter II :eep:

Ultima Shadow

02-13-2013, 06:26 PM

The Idea that a low tier, by happen chance of moveset alone, can more easily beat ONE higher tier character is the worst example you could possibly have given about whether a game is balanced or not. ;p

Reaction.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FhOowSu2ao)

In any case, I will admit that melee is a bit unbalanced overall, more so than many other fighting games. However, it is by no means so unbalanced that it's impossible to play with a very, very wide variety of characters at the top-level and still do well. In short, it's unbalanced but not as unbalanced as many seem to think. It's balanced enough for competitive play to see more different characters than many other fighting games do. I can't even really remember what else we argued about and I'm too lazy to go back and look, so let's just leave it at that. :p

And Evastio:

I don't hate Brawl, I just personally think it is inferior to Melee. Aside from the glitches that I won't deny that I have indeed become fond of, I just think Brawl feels less smooth and more chunky in general. I love the melee physics and they make me feel like I can control the character exactly like I want, but when I play Brawl it feels more like I'm just controlling a big, fat block with the weight of a marshmallow. Plus the tripping. It's just my personal preference, but while I can still enjoy playing Brawl, the physics do annoy me and Melee feels much more natural to me. Even if I had never played Melee as a tournament player, I would still have liked melee more. And I'm not really annoyed with the removal of the glitch techniques, since it makes perfect sense they would be removed in the next installment. What does annoy me, however, is when they add things that seriously really only exist to prevent competitive play. Tripping. I have yet to meet a single casual player who has liked this feature. All the features such as less hitstun and repeated airdodges at least fill a function - it creates a different kind of gameplay experience. But tripping adds nothing. It only really exists to add a 100% obligatory random factor that no one even enjoys (not a single person I've ever met at least).

Tripping aside, I can enjoy and have enjoyed Brawl though. I just personally think it has less things that I would desire in a game and so I simply enjoy it to a much less extent.

Wow, EoFF too? I'm beyond sick of people raving about Melee's epicness and awesome competitive scene and how it's the best Smash Bros. game.
Don't see a problem with saying a game is awesome and epic and the best in its series. It's an opinion. :p

The sad part is that people are so attached to Melee that they've hacked Brawl to resemble Melee from the character menu select, all the glitches and exploits including wavedashing, making ledge grabbing harder (and no longer possible to do when facing the opposite direction of the ledge), and even getting rid of Falco and Ganondorf's changes that were implemented to declone them. These people are way too obsessed with Melee and hardly gave Brawl a fair chance.
If you are referring to Project M, which is what I assume, then there is absolutely nothing "sad" about it whatsoever. No more sad than the amazing mods being made for other games. Project M gives Brawl the physics that many - the makers of Project M included - prefer. And while I admit that wavedashing and l-cancelling are glitches, they are not "flaws" in the eyes of those who use them. To me, and many others, they only add to the overall gameplay experience and makes melee/Project M feel even more "free". Futhermore, project M is much more balanced than any of the actual smash games. Even on a casual level - and yes, Project M can without doubt be enjoyed casually too. Finally, Ganon at least do keep some of his Brawl features. Like his side B is still the Brawl version. Plus the "cloning" isn't an actual problem to begin with. The moves look alike, but the characters still function very differently. The only case I really see as bad cloning is Mario and Dr. Mario. They are the only ones that got a bit too much in common, really. In any case, I'm pretty sure the people behind Project M gave Brawl a fair enough chance, but in the end it just wasn't the game for them. I gave Brawl a fair chance too. I've played it for countless hours, had fun with it. But in the end, I was never able to enjoy it anywhere near as much as I enjoy Melee.

As for the balance, of course every game will be unbalanced in the competitive scene, but Melee is the worst balanced in casual and single player.
I would probably have agreed, if it wasn't because of Metaknight. I've seen matches between casual players where one of them picks Metaknight and does nothing but B (tornado) spam until the opponent is in KO-range. And if the opponent is playing a bigger, slower character then there is basically nothing they can do. It's possibly the most spam-friendly move that casual play has ever seen, only slightly rivaled by Marth's f-smash. Aside from that, Brawl might be a bit more balanced to most casual players. But from what I've seen, Metaknight is possibly even more unbalanced in casual than competitive if someone decides to tornado-spam, since there are so few options to counter it unless you have the knowledge about it that mostly tournament players would have.

Finally, one last thing that isn't directed at you or your post. Just something I'm saying: Smash was never meant to see serious competition. But things taking different turns than what was originally intended are not always bad things. And in the case of Melee, I'm personally very, very glad that a competitive scene was created for it.

NeoCracker

02-14-2013, 08:54 AM

Other things ranked higher then Street Fighter 2

77. Soul Calibur II (PS2/XBox/Gamecube)
      The first of a set of games that may get Wolf Foaming at the mouth is none other then Soul Calibur 2. Having one of the better fighting game story lines (Which, saddly, isn’t really saying to much. :p) it game characters end up having more of a personality and giving me more of a desire to play as certain characters for more then just move sets. Past that, it comes with some solid gameplay. There really isn’t to much to say about it though. It’s a really well made fighting game.

76. Tekken 5 (PS2)
75. Tekken 3/6 (PS3/360)
      Someone is going to lynch me for placing Tekken over Soul Calirbur (As well as all the other fighters it beats out). But I love these games for thier visual flare. I usually prefer the unarmed styles to armed, so from a visual percpective the Tekken series outweights a lot of other fighters for me.

      In addition, past it’s horrible presentation, the story told throughout the Tekken Game’s isn’t all that bad. I’d argue it’s pretty decent even! Saddly you sometimes have to wait until the next game in the series to get a confirmation of what exactly happened given each character has his own ending.

      Speaking of endings, Tekken’s character endings I find much more enjoyable on a whole then Soul Caliburs, which adds a lot to Single Player experience for me. I mean hell, who didn’t love watching Bryan Fury rip off the Tank’s gun in Tekken 3? That was just glorious. So for superior story and visual appeal, Tekken wins out as my favorite 3D fighter.

Wolf Kanno

02-14-2013, 08:58 AM

I am now joining the group of people who feel you have no taste in gaming... :eep: Or at least no taste in Fighting games... :p

NeoCracker

02-14-2013, 09:00 AM

You know, for the most part I agree with you. I am a terrible person for reviewing a fighting game, as my entire joy of the genre comes from visual appeal of punching people and decent controls. :p

Loony BoB

02-14-2013, 10:16 AM

There are way too many fighting games in this list. Boring. Reveal more, faster! I wanna get to the good stuff!

Bubba

02-14-2013, 11:46 AM

There are way too many fighting games in this list. Boring. Reveal more, faster! I wanna get to the good stuff!

Seconded!

I haven't played any of the last 10-15 games so I've been unable to comment!

Bolivar

02-14-2013, 06:59 PM

I'm more appalled that Bloody Roar and Smash Bros were ranked higher than Street Fighter II :eep:

Let's not necessarily spin this as a bad thing. I, for one, think NeoCracker would make a fantastic IGN editor.

NeoCracker

02-14-2013, 08:37 PM

Fine BoB, now stop your smurfing whining! ‘Oh you have to make sure it’s accurate’ and now it’s ‘oh god your accurate list includes fighting games! Get through this trout already, gosh!’.

74. God of War 1-3 (PS2/PS3)
      Ah god of War, on the PS2 there wasn’t really a game out that had such a level of visual carnage I can recall. I won’t deny this is biggest reason I decided to give the game a try, and remained a reason for enjoying the series as a hole. There was always a level of satisfaction for your horrific murders.

      Of course that alone wouldn’t be enough to put this game on the list. The controls in this game are very well done. Pair that with the large variety of combo’s and powers (Even though the games all seem to have that one spell that overpowers the rest of them. :p) you have some great and varied game play from beginning to end.

      Finally, I enjoy Kratos as a character. He’s a well made Protagonist with a tragic past, and I think his story is told well throughout all three games, regardless of the occasional muck up in the plot. Hell, I even though the Third game was an amazing end to Kratos’s story.

73. Batman: Arkham Asylum (PS3/360)
72. Batman: Arkham City (PS3/360)]
      Okay, Batman is awesome. When I saw a Batman game that was worth a damn, I was all over it. And when I picked them up I was not disappointing, and in fact they surpassed any expectations I had of them.

      That isn’t to say they are without their flaws. For example the Riddler challenges can be fun, but in both games there are some that are so mindlessly easy it feels pointless, and others that stop being a challenge to figure out and just get Frustrating. The games also pose some pretty underwhelming boss fights, with a few exceptions such as Ras in Arkham City.

      However, the main draw is stealthing around like the Goddamn Batman and brutally incapacitating people. Requiring a fair bit of creativity and thought, mixed with good timing and you have both a rewarding and challenging system.

      The Stealth mechanic’s of the game work great, so long as you look past the fact that it would fall apart were your foes smart enough to glance up from time to time, and after short periods just seem to except you’ve moved on and stopped caring about them.

      Joker is also marvelous both games. He is a Show Stealer, and wonderful for it. Him and Harley are both fun and threatening both games, and paired with the other villains it creates a wonderful atmosphere. A personal favorite is Scarecrow, his Nightmare scenes being my favorite bits of both games.

Bolivar

02-15-2013, 12:14 AM

God of War is the western equivalent of Dragon Quest, in that it takes a few elements and implements them to that cross-section on the graph chart where the accessibility line intersects with depth. David Jaffe put it like this - the original was inspired by Devil May Cry and Ico. The game doesn't live up to the combat of Devil May Cry, much less the puzzles of Ico. But it has better puzzles than Devil May Cry and certainly more visceral and fluid combat than Ico. These are implemented with a consistently impressive art design and and an enjoyable story. These ingredients make up for a winning recipe and certainly one of my favorite series. We've had a lot of imaginative indie games, but I still think God of War III was the most artistic game I've seen this generation.

The Arkham games... I have Arkham City on Steam and just want to get a controller to play this game via big picture mode. The first game really reminded me of Metal Gear Solid. You're on this one island, it's fallen into the wrong hands, and you take it back over this 15-20 hour journey where you master a breadth of gameplay mechanics and endure some trippy shit along the way. Very excellent, very surprising game. It's particularly rewarding if you're a comic fan. I like how they actually took Batman's moves in the panels of the comics and actually turned it into a video game. They also have the best combination for Bruce Wayne and the Joker ever when it comes to voice acting.

Loony BoB

02-15-2013, 09:18 AM

Scarecrow was in Arkham City? Huh. I did all the storylines, collectables, sidequests and New Game Plus and never came across him. :(

Also, I echo the voice acting tributes. They were fantastic. Every person I've seen play Joker has been awesome, but for me the 'perfect' Joker has always been the animated variation. Everyone else plays the Joker, while the animated Joker is the Joker.

NeoCracker

02-15-2013, 12:27 PM

No he wasn't, I was saying his bit in Asylum was my favorite part of the entire series. :p

Bubba

02-15-2013, 06:07 PM

I did very much enjoy Arkham City. I thought it was a superbly crafted game. I didn't actually get to finish it though as I borrowed it from a friend and he demanded it back rather quickly. If anyone wants to send my their copy then feel free. I'll PM you my address.

Bolivar

02-15-2013, 09:05 PM

Everyone else plays the Joker, while the animated Joker is the Joker.

The fact that he's also Luke Skywalker is pretty mindblowing.

NeoCracker

02-16-2013, 05:03 AM

Well, good a time as any to move on to the next set!

71. Legend of Legaia
      This is a game I expect to get a lot of people scratching their heads at, but to you I give you a pre-emptive ‘Piss Off’, cause this game is good fun. Though I guess I’ll address the issues of the game right off the back.

      It has a Magic system that is some what limited in it's use. While the act of acquiring magic by absorbing certain enemies is fun, and all your spells have a secondary effect to go along with damage or healing as they level is a fun touch, most of your spells end up seeing little to no use. So a fun system, but mostly you walk away feeling there was some untapped potential there.

      The Draw combat wise is the ability to string together a variety of fun Martial Arts combos. While you'll find that through stretches of the game you'll be re-using the same combo set ups, it is only for stretches at a time. But still, it suffers a bit from repetitiveness, though it's not so bad to pull one out of the game.

      It also comes with a solid Story, with none of your three characters feeling unimportant. Though the atmosphere of various area's makes up for most of the story's joy, as the story itself is pretty simple on a whole. The story ends up being driven more by individual goals then an over arching plot most of the time, but the game makes that work out well. It's satisfying when your characters resolutions come to be.

70. Penny Arcade Series (PC/PS3)
      These games rank so high mostly based on how so very funny they are. If you enjoy the humor of Penny Arcade, there are a large amount of Laughs to be had here. You see all your favorite characters from the comic, the jokes are on par with the ones produced in the comics, and to top it off the Penny Arcade guys show themselves to be great writers.

      In this bizarre and silly world, you still find yourself invested in the characters and what’s happening to them. Pair t hat with Zyboyd’s game great Battle System used in the third game, this is a game that’s pretty much guarantee to bring you at least a little bit of enjoyment.

69. Radiant Historia (DS)
      If there was ever any doubt that the JRPG genre still had some steam, look no further then Radiant Historia. Given the power to hop back and forth between two time lines, you experience the different consequences of possible decisions in an attempt to discover a path that results in the end of the world being prevented.

      A huge cast of Characters paired with one of the more unique stories, or at the very least a way of telling the story, is a great way to keep you invested. The combat is nothing amazing, but at the same point solid enough to keep you interested. Any RPG fan with a DS should get this game.

68. Illusions of Gaia (SNES)
      This is a game that would greatly benefit from an improved script, as the one given is pretty bare bones giving you little more then needed to tell the story. That said, the story being told is great, and even with the brief dialogues you get the characters all manage to have a fair amount of personality.

      One reason I enjoy the story behind this so much is what it is you had been fighting to achieve. True, Will’s reason to journey was to find out what happened to his father, there is a grander objective to be fulfilled, the restoration of the world as it should be. In the end, while Terranigma was the stronger game from a mechanical perspective, the world and presentation of Gaia did a far better job at allowing you to feel the grand scale of your journey.

      That said, the game play is still great. Switching between Will, Freedan, and Shadow gives you a variety of game play options that keep the game from feeling stale beginning to end.

This is likely the only set of 4 games I’ll have from here on out. :P

Loony BoB

02-18-2013, 11:40 AM

I always see those PA games sitting there on the PS Store and consider them before moving on. It's like a tradition.

NeoCracker

02-19-2013, 03:19 AM

The third one isn't on PSN, the only way I know to get it is over Steam, but the third is easily the best of the lot.

Anyway, on to the next games!

67. Persona 4: Arena (PS3/360)
      This was one of my favorites in the realm of Fighting Games. The biggest reason for this was how invested I was in the story the game told. I was hesitant on the inclusion of Labrys at first given it was a new character getting added into the P4 story, but I wasn't dissapointed. Her backstory was heartbreaking, and she was great as a character.

      And I'll be honest, I have no clue how balanced this game is considered, as I didn't really keep up on it after finishing off the story, something that happans commonly with me and fighting games. That said eveyr character can be fun to play as, though I was kind of sad I was awful with Naoto. :(

66. Borderlands 2
      This is something that a lot of people have said, but Borderlands two is everything the first game was but better. Gameplay was better, the guns were better, the customization was better, and the challange was higher. Most importantly, however, was the story.

      It may have been pretty basic for the most part, but well told. Where this game shines however is Handsome Jack. The new cast members are all great mind you, but dear god Jack is amazing as this games villain. For those who played the game, you'll know what I mean when I say there are two points in the game where things start becoming personal between you and Jack, being Wild Life Foundation and The Bunker.

      I give all the props I can to GearBox for seriously upping their game hear and putting in more effort then they needed to for this game to be good.

the_best_noob

02-19-2013, 08:54 PM

Still playing through Borderlands 2. Somehow, even though I love the game, I'm just absolutely addicted to Portal 2's co-op. I swear, as much as I want to play Borderlands 2 and others, I always find myself in a skype call with my friend playing Portal 2. Damn you Valve.

NeoCracker

02-24-2013, 01:37 AM

I'm a bit late in updating this, I was a bit busy with life and finishing up the Babe Tournament. But, we return with the final Fighting Game entry on this list!

65. Blazblu: Calamity Trigger
64. Blazblu: Continuum Shift

      This, to me, is the fighting game that all other fighting games should strive to be, at least in terms of quality. Solid gameplay, every character is viable, and it has an absolutely wonderful visual presentation. Each character is radically different from the others as well, made in part possible by their special attack set. One guy magnetizes his opponents, one controls a puppet along with himself Simultaneously, one person alters the course of projectiles, it’s a blast no matter who you have.

      More then anything though, Blazblu has the best story of any Fighting game I have ever played, along with the best method of presenting it I have ever seen. The Sequel did the best job with this, revealing if your choices were one of the possible futures shown by The Continuum Shift, or if it’s the true story.

      And then there are the joke endings, which are just amazingly hilarious. A personal favorite being the developers beating the Slashfic writers to the punch and making Jin seem like the creepy Rapist stalking Ragna. As far as a single player experience goes, there really isn’t a better fighting game out there then Blazblu.

maybee

02-24-2013, 04:46 AM

Yes ! The Blazblue games ! :jess:

Wolf Kanno

02-24-2013, 04:50 AM

there really isn’t a better fighting game out there then Blazblu.

Guilty Gear series

Loony BoB

02-27-2013, 09:28 AM

It's been three days, man. I don't think Blazbu's gonna get much more intense debate thrown about. ;)

NeoCracker

02-27-2013, 10:41 PM

I"ve been busy and have to much to do to update. I'll do it tomorrow. :p

Also Wolf Is wrong.

Forsaken Lover

02-28-2013, 12:03 AM

Best fighting game series is Samurai Shodown.

Mercen-X

02-28-2013, 01:31 AM

144. Twisted Metal 2 (PS1)
142. Vigilante 8 (PS1/n64)
TM and V8 were far too similar so I really only played a demon of the latter.
133. Mortal Kombat 3 (SNES)
132. Street Fighter 2 (SNES)
I love MK3 introducing the cyborgs and brutalities. I only played SF2 at arcades.
129. Final Fantasy VII*
People here may know me as a rabid FF7 fan and one who endorses the compilation.
120. Wild Arms 3 (PS2)*
I became a fan of the ARMs series after playing and subsequently owning WA3.
109. Tales of Destiny (PS1)*
I have also played ToD and it's sequel though after their initial rental, I was never able to find them again.
107. Legaia 2: Dual Saga (PS2)*
Unlike WA, I purchased Dual Saga due to regret at not owning Legaia when I had the chance.
104. Legend of Dragoon (PSX)*
Dragoon was and is an awesome game even if the encounter rate is disturbing and the process is slow.
97. Killer Instinct (SNES)
The KI series I've only ever played infrenquently at arcades.
95. Starfox 64 (N64)
When I originally played it, I wasn't much a fan of simulated flight, though I later began to play games like AceCombat.
93. Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits (PS3)*
It's an awesome game in my opinion. One of many that I lost track of for a while and was delightfully surprised when I found it again.
92. Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete (PS1)*
I used the Soap in the men's locker room... I never had the opportunity to use it in the lady's shower room. The game had a cool story too although I never liked the main protagonist's appearance (http://cdn4.spong.com/pack/l/u/lunarsilve22424/_-Lunar-Silver-Star-Story-PlayStation-_.jpg).
91. Bloody Roar (PSX)
Arcaded. I've always liked the shapeshifting totem-morphing aspect. I kind of think this particular series could have worked better as a celshaded 2d game since the graphics didn't really do the characters justice.
90. Twisted Metal 3 (PSX)
Eh.
85. Soul Calibur 3 (PS2)*
I loved being able to customize my own characters and only all too happy the feature returned later.
80. Super Smash Brothers Brawl (Wii)*
77. Soul Calibur 2 (PS2)*
Not that there's anything wrong with Heihachi, but would rather have played as Spawn or Link. Unfortunately, I didn't own an XBOX or Gamecube.
76. Tekken 5 (PS2)
75. Tekken 3 (PS1)
My favorite character persistently remains Hwoarang although I prefer his Tekken 4 Korean military outfit.
71. Legend of Legaia (PSX)*
One of my favorite parts of the original was a mini-game styled like roshambo (reminded me of the Gold Saucer Wonder Square game, only faster).

Some titles I have minimal experience with. *Marks my favorite games on the list.

NeoCracker

02-28-2013, 11:09 AM

I could never get into Samurai Showdown myself. :p

Anyway, somewhat brief with this description, but smurf it, here's the next games!

63. Disgaea 4 (PS3)
62. . Disgaea 3 (PS3)

      Having not play the first, and not really being impressed by the second, these two games were absolutely wonderful. These games really are wonderful experiences, even though I don’t have an interest the vast majority of the Post Game stuff.

      It was a hard call to put Disgaea 3 over 4, but where Absence of Justice wins out is I was much more invested in it’s cast of characters. Mao and his Mad Scientist vibe wins out over Vavlatorez the Vampire loving sardines and refusing to drink blood, though Both are awesome leads. Past them, the Butler in 4 is the only character that I think keeps up with the cast of 3.

      The Game play is varied greatly due to all the different classes and monsters you can make, and the classes are almost all fun to play with, given a few exceptions. Overall, you can’t go wrong with these two games if you can enjoy the goofy nature of the stories told.

      Also, just as a side note, a personal favorite moment of this series was the Home Economics Teachers voice replacing another characters inner monologue from Disgaea 3.

Edit: ANd because I forgot to include this info.....

      I also want to note, Disgaea 3 was one of the first PS3 games I had played, if not the first. Twas a great introduction to the system for me. Though, there is something that bothers me a lot with the Disgaea sereis.

      That would be the effect tiles. In premise I don't mind them, but both these games suffer from the last few dungeons are more of a puzzle game then an SRPG, and those maps bother the ever loving fuck out of me. I am here to play an SRPG, stop making me solve these fucking puzzle maps!

Loony BoB

02-28-2013, 12:09 PM

You really like fighting games, huh. I liked this list better when it had variation so it was more likely to have a game I could discuss. >=(

NeoCracker

02-28-2013, 12:19 PM

It's odd looking at this list actually, as I'm surprised how many fighting games ended up on this, yet I don't see myself as a big Fighting game guy.

Most of these are on this list due to playing them with some friends and having a good old time more so then enjoyment of the games themselves. Perhaps I would have been better off telling tales of the silly things that happen while playing them. :p (Blazblu is the only series, as well as P4, I can say I truly enjoyed regardless of friends to play with though. :p)

SO, I shall give you one!

This was with Tekken 6. Me and my friend Brian came to the conclusion that Marduk was a woman beater, don't know why, just looked like one. After a few days we realized something. Whenever we played with Mardock, he would ALWAYS win if the other player was a female character, and ALWAYS lose if it was a Male opponent. It was fucking priceless. XD

ANd besides, that was the last fighting game anyway, so meh. :p

Loony BoB

02-28-2013, 12:51 PM

Yay!

Bubba

02-28-2013, 01:00 PM

Looking forward to games I can comment on!

Bolivar

02-28-2013, 06:11 PM

Despite being a big SRPG fan and a hardcore PS3 gamer when these came out, I never got the Disgaea games. I guess I just assumed that I needed to play the originals first. At the same time, I am a little put-off by the uber-anime style that modern JRPGs embrace. It's not like FFVII where the characters are inspired by anime, but still rendered in a video game; I evangelize Japanese games, but these are just too Japanese for me.

NeoCracker

02-28-2013, 10:42 PM

Here's a game you may have played BoB!

61. Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past (SNES)
      Another one of my earlier experiences
gaming, Link to the Past was a blast to play. I'd played this one not long
after the original game on the NES.

      The games controls are all solid, and
I don't think I've ever had an issue with it. You get a lot of fun little
toys to play around with, solving the different dungeons and handling
a variety of enemies.

      The Dungeons are varied and all have
a unique and fun feel, never feeling like it retreads the same ground
more then once. Considering the amount of dungeons in this game, that is
an accomplishement.

      The one real problem I can find with this
game is the story and characters. The story isn't bad, but mostly bare
bones, and you never really see any real personality to any character in
the game. But hey, everything else is great, so it still gets this place.

60. Makai Kingdom (PS2)
      In the realm of the NIS strategy RPG,
never had they gotten as right as they did With Makai Kingdom. My favorite
of the NIS SRPG's, I don't know if I have ever laughed as much at one of
thier titles.

      Overlord Zeta is an absolute riot,
with a huge amount of memorable lines, a personal favorite being
"Disperse my Loyal Battle Monkeys. Do my bidding and bust a cap!" Between
him and every other character you will be laughing constantly as time goes
by. The humour does take the forefront, but that doesn't stop you from getting
invested in the story and fates of the characters. So long as you have no
issues with NIS's over the top worlds and story's, this is a great story.

      And the combat is my favorite of these
games. Dropping the tile set up for a distance and area based movement, they
don't have the damned colored tiles which I loved. This game dropped the
worst aspect about the other titles, and I love it for doing so. Check this
out if you have the chance, it will not dissapoint.

Bubba

03-01-2013, 12:18 AM

*Cracks knuckles and prepares to type*

I still regard A Link to the Past as my second favourite game of all time. I remember being bought this game for my tenth birthday. It was a Tuesday morning and I had school that day. I played the game for around ten minutes before I had to leave. In that time, I remember finding the secret entrance to the castle and meeting my Uncle to gain the sword. I couldn't concentrate on anything else all day...

I own every copy of 'Super Play' magazine... which was dedicated to the Super Nintendo. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past was reviewed in issue 2 and received a favourable score of 93%. This magazine ran for exactly four years. Even in the very last issues, they had people expressing love... and requesting help. It was just a special game.

I have played the original Legend of Zelda and it is clear that ALTTP was Miyamoto's true vision of this game... and his life around Kyoto. He wanted a game where exploration was the key. He combined this perfectly with an action element which, in a 2D gaming world, will never be surpassed.

It was perfectly balanced. A tightly compacted gem of absolute genius design. It wasn't a particularly large world... you could walk from one end to the other in a couple of minutes. But there was so much included in this limited space, it was the first gaming world I was ever really lost in.

I very rarely use the word "timeless" in reference to computer games because by its very nature, the world of yesterday in reference to gaming, will always be dated. But... this game is now over twenty years old and it is still finding fans today. I can also guarantee, it will still find fans in years to come.

Loony BoB

03-01-2013, 01:47 PM

Here's a game you may have played BoB!
Boy, is this awkward...

NeoCracker

03-02-2013, 03:40 PM

Dammit BoB. Just Dammit.

59. Golden Sun (GBA)
58. Golden Sun: The Lost Age (GBA)
      You know, it's hard for me to say why I enjoy Golden
Sun as much as I do. Not that it does anything wrong mind you, but it's not really exceptional
in any way. Still though, it does everything it does well. Combat is fun, story is good, and
your characters are all decently written. Doesn't really do to much unique in terms of gameplay
other then the Djinni attacks and cool downs and resetting, which is good fun.

      Of course the games only reall problem, I feel, comes in
with the system of actually setting Djinni on your characters. The problem is that you are
given the option to create weird combinations of Djinni on the different characters, but in
the end there isn't really a benefit to doing this, as the optimal path always seems to be
leaving each person with their default element of Djinn.

      But regardless, there is a lot of fun to be had with a
variety of spells, weapons that all offer different effects, and the versatile use of
Djinni abilities. As well as some nice looking graphics for the GBA. A great game to check
out if you are an RPG fan, not so much if you don't enjoy the Genre though, as the game
doesn't really give you anything all that new.

NeoCracker

03-03-2013, 08:20 PM

No love for Golden Sun? :cry:

57. Catherine (PS3/360)
      I am not really a fan of games that are purely Puzzle in nature, leaning more towards action or RPG games with puzzle elements to the dungeons, such as Zelda. That said, I have never had more fun with a Puzzle game then I have with Catherine. Being a game well
outside of my normal genre tastes make it hard to say why I enjoy this one while so many others tend to bore me, but I'll do my best.

      The levels themselves are all very imaginative and creepy, matching well with the story surrounding each instance. It also comes with disturbing atmosphere and feelings of
urgency to finish each area. This gives the game a feeling of purpose that drives you to solve each area.

      The puzzles themselves are fun and challenging, and I love learning how the bizarre physics of the game work. After a while, things that would have original thought counter intuitive become the necessary steps to solving the levels, forcing you to think of all sorts
of bizarre strategies in the time limits of each stage.

      The story is both good and bad. I loved what they tried to do, giving you a story you just don't see in video games. Where it lacked a bit to me though was how much I disliked
Katherine (The burnette one). She was so passive aggressive she did nothing but irk me, so it was hard to get invested with Vincents feelings for her. Catherine, on the other hand, I actually though had a very reasonable
and sensible view on things (Well, up until the crazy girlfriend thing, but I can't really get into why that doesn't bother me, so I'll end my discussion on the story here. :p)

      Pair all of this with some pretty good endings, the Catherine ending being hilarious as all hell, and you have a pretty solid and unique game.

56. Katamari Damacy Series (PS2/PS3/360)
      Okay, this game is silly as all smurf. It is outrageous, what your doing makes no logical sense, and this game is absolutely wonderful for it. Hell, it's even challenging to get the high rankings
in all of the games levels.

      This game series makes it on my list if only because of the satisfaction of rolling balls of screaming children into other screaming children. A joy that can be hand in any of the games entries.
The game has a unique visual style, creative and challenging levels, and over the top humor that keeps you laughing and invested. A personal favorite bit being anything from RoboKing n Katamari Forever. Seriously, check these games out, they are incredible.

Bolivar

03-03-2013, 08:27 PM

I like Camelot, but never got into the Golden Sun games.

Katamari is wonderful, though, glad it made it on the list! ^_^

NeoCracker

03-05-2013, 12:30 PM

55. Super Mario RPG: LEgend of the Seven Stars (SNES)
      When I first saw this game I was floored that this was happening. Still early in my gaming life, there were few games I had experience when picking this up. In my mind, it had to be one of the greatest ideas ever to combine my joy of RPG's and Mario into one package. And it did not disappoint me. This game was all kinds of awesome.

      To start with the timing set up used for it's battle system was great. There really wasn't anything like it back on the SNES. Pair that with a wide variety of abilities and changeable party members? And the ability to select a power up each level? This was everything my younger self could have wanted, and even now in my older and far more
cynical years, this game is still great to play, though extremely easy.

      ANd the story and characters are all great. I loved seeing peach in an actual combat role for the first time in Mario. I loved getting Bowser in my group, and was constantly laughing about the silly nature of his dialogue, being both the King Koopa himself prone to anger, but hilariously cry baby like and sensitive. After all the praise it makes you wonder why it's not higher on the list.

      But sadly, even when younger this game wasn't all that challenging outside of a couple of areas, and as fun as the story was there wasn't really all that much to it. So, while it's a great romp for what it is, it's more simplistic nature keeps it down for me.

54. Chrono Cross (PSX)
      Chrono Cross is a game that has some issues. Some really big issues. Not the smallest of which is that in it's massive cast, effectively two of your characters are relevant for more then five minutes of the plot. Still though, the game ends up doing a lot right regardless of this. So this is what I'll yammer on about.

      It's not my favorite battle system, and when I played it first I disliked it, almost to the point I didn't want to keep playing. However, after a while I adjusted to the system, and grew to like it quite a bit if only because it was both unique and very functional, even if the limited amount of character unique elements and pathetic amount of Dual Techs
was sad. Still, the character elements and stats kept who you brought along with you relevant in terms of gameplay.

      And while at times the execution and presentation is bad, there are still a lot of good characters
and an intriguing story I feel is a good follow up to Trigger. In the end, it does enough right to overcome it's more

And to note, Atelier Ayesha comes out today, so I may not update this for a bit. :p