Convince me to play...

[VeloZer0]

one of these games. I've dabbled in all three and based on how people talk about them I think they should get second chances to be enjoyed. I just need to pick one and hopefully get some motivation that I will enjoy it enough to continue.

Final Fantasy Tactics A/A2.
I've tried both and I don't think I made it much past the first battle or two. They basically seemed like FFT that I loved, stripped down and made childish.

Tactics Ogre
I got a little further in this, but it seemed like a needlessly over complication on top of a very simple battle system. It seems like they built a robust character advancement /management system but like ten hours in all my characters are still doing the exact same things as at the start of the game and all that is changing are upgrades that give statistical boosts to the characters. Am I missing something?

Sukoden II
Played S1 and the coolness of building the castle was probably the only thing that kept me going despite the extreme blandness of combat. S2 featured no castle in the 12 hours I played it, and no character progression (game mechanics wise) and using the exact same moves every battle.

Now tell me why I am wrong and why I will enjoy one of these.

[Bolivar]

Are you playing Tactics Ogre on the PSP? I can't say much for the SNES/PlayStation version if that's the case, but...

As far as characters, I guess it never bothered me. The passive skills aren't just stat adjusters, they fundamentally change the make up and role of that unit. Strengthen and Spellcraft drastically improve attacking power, but then you also get to decide if you want your Reptile Hoplite to avoid ranged attacks, mitigate magic damage, or deal extra damage against Golems. Yes, the skill list is incredibly long, but no more than it has to be to accomodate the average range of classes and abilities in a traditional SRPG. The only difference is, it's broken apart everything you thought you knew about classes and lets you decide how to put it all back together.

Also, I don't just play it for the gameplay. I play it for the great writing, the wonderful music, and the branching storylines.

[Skyblade]

Final Fantasy Tactics A/A2.
I've tried both and I don't think I made it much past the first battle or two. They basically seemed like FFT that I loved, stripped down and made childish.

Not at all. They purged some of the more useless, redundant, and tedious parts of the battle system, sure. No Zodiac system, no Faith or Bravery. I guess you could call that "stripping it down". But really it just makes it play smoother.

Then they added in side quests which replace about 90% of the random battles (though there are still random battles). These serve the purpose of really investing you in the world, and that makes the dark and serious stuff hit home hard.

The main characters are kids, yes. And there are fewer outright deaths, its true. But the content handled gets to be very mature, and is handled very well.

If you want an example (and don't mind spoilers): In FFTA, you wind up being basically at war with the kingdom. You're just a small clan of a couple dozen adventurers, though, so the kingdom really doesn't have a lot of luck tracking you down. As a result, they initiate basically a state of martial law, and wind up locking an entire town in chains and purging its entire citizenry just to find you. You turn yourself in, calling for Judgemaster Cid. Who recognizes you as a possible insurgent, but isn't actually sure that you're the one the crown is searching for. As a result, he takes you into custody, and orders the purging of the town to continue.

It's a beautifully dark scene showing Judgemaster Cid (who is a phenomenally well crafted character and one of the heroes of the story) doing his job: Enforcing the law, regardless of cost or personal prefernce. It's a masterful piece of character work.

Superficially, sure, the game is "kiddy". But those games deal with serious issues better than the majority of the series, and does so with top-notch writing (although, admittedly, the main plot of FFTA2 is butchered).


More than that, however, the games make Ivalice come to life. Each game has over 300 quests, of which less than a tenth are a part of the main plot. So much of this game isn't the main story, it's about stepping foot into Ivalice and living in it, and it is beautiful. Square's strength has always, always been their world building, and the structure of these games and their sidequests lets you just take one of their all time greatest worlds and see what it's like to be a part of it.

They start slow, and they seem childish, especially on a superficial level. But I've written essays detailing the moral implications of FFTA's story (as Wolf and Bolivar can attest to). Don't dismiss things at a first glance, or because things start slow. Just get into it, and let Ivalice come to life around you.

[Wolf Kanno]

If I was going to keep the theme here, I would probably only speak about Suikoden II but I'll try to give a decent answer for some of the others. :D

I have not played Tactics Ogre yet, I still need to finish Peace Walker and lately The Last Story has consumed my life more, so I haven't gotten around to it yet. So I can't really say one way or the other about playing it beyond it being the precursor to FFTactics.

FFTA and FFTA2 are a bit complicated... I'm with you that the game is pretty stripped down, a lost of several stats, no movement abilities, a bunch of the reaction and support skills have been removed for the worst, equipment is overly simplified, and the ability learning system makes this game a completionist nightmare...

Between the two, FFTA has the better storyline but the poorer gameplay. FFTA's main plot revolves around the themes of escapism and I felt the use of children just drove this theme home. It's definitely a Matsuno game (despite only being produced by him) and leaves you wanting to debate and talk about its characters and themes. The gameplay... leaves much to be desired, most of the 300 missions are pretty boring and basic "kill everything" fights, and the limited number of maps due to the GBA's limitations and the fact you often need to replay these missions over and over again, can quickly lead to burnout. It has not aged well I'm afraid. If you play this game, I suggest just sticking to the story missions and only doing the side missions for level grinding.

FFTA2 has an awful storyline and mostly bland cookie cutter cast of characters. The main story is awful with a poorly developed villain, plot threads that are only resolved in optional side missions (Adelle) and some poor pacing. The side missions are a lot better, offering more variety of mission objectives and more involved characters and story focus. There are two storylines that are actually well written and would have been infinitely more interesting than the main plot, the rest are largely more comical and charming. The gameplay also improves in some ways and gets worse in other ways. I am not wild about the Judge rules system in the game as I felt it diminished the purpose it had in FFTA (making the game harder) by largely minimizing consequences. The regenerate MP concept largely kills the mage classes usefulness, slows down combat pacing, and makes the Viera the de facto uber mage race. Yet the clan abilities are nice, the new jobs offer more customization variety, and the missions are actually pretty fun.

Suikoden II has a great political plot about warring nations and two friends finding themselves on opposite sides, despite that, its slow in the beginning cause it has to set up the main conflict. The game does have a castle system, and in fact its one of the best in the series, but it does take awhile for you to obtain it since the plot takes awhile to justify it. Customization is actually pretty simple but there are some interesting things you can do. Its streamlined cause you are using 80 characters and games like Suikoden III and V which have more deep and personal customization systems for the characters will show you how much of a headache that is. This system is designed to keep your options open for party configuration (the main element of the series is using different team set-ups as opposed to sticking to one team). Major customization comes from exploiting characters who have multiple rune slots to use, there are actually a decent amount of really good support runes that can build your characters into some pretty mean fighting machines, magic is still the typical spell charges a la FFI but it makes using the mages more strategic since it will be awhile before you can haphazardly use magic without discretion. Other characters obtain unique runes which you can augment with support runes or make them more versatile with magic runes. You can also embed magic runes into weapons and grant special stat boosts or properties(regen effect). The games also introduces the really cool trading economy system where amassing money comes from buying and trading materials. around the City-States. The game also doesn't shoot itself in the foot like Suikoden I and give you an overpowered all enemy kill combo attack... well it does but said character leaves your party eventually, so its only a crutch for the beginning of the game. The duels have been made better and more exciting, though I feel the War battles are not as good as the rest of the series but if you haven't really played the others then this will not be an issue. Honestly the story is the main draw, but I feel Suikoden II has solid gameplay and I like the variety of gameplay elements like duels and War battles, but if you are looking for a deep customization system style game with heavy min/max elements, you will not find it in Suikoden.

[Bolivar]

Well, there you have it. Also, Wolf's "completionist's nightmare" phrase reminded me I actually wrote a review of Tactics Ogre if you need: Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together Review: Sing to Me of an Age of Classic RPGs | Warp Zoned (http://www.warpzoned.com/2011/04/tactics-ogre-let-us-cling-together-review-sing-to-me-of-an-age-of-classic-rpgs/)

[DownDiagonalLeftA]

Suikoden 2. Just do it.

[Jowy]

Suikoden II. Admittedly, the first two hours kind of drag on until it picks up, but once you get a glimpse of how sadistic the antagonist is, you'll want to keep playing just to see what else is up his sleeve and eventually rally up the troops to take him down.

And yeah, that is probably one of the best boss fights ever. He is the true face of evil, after all.

[DMKA]

Raistlin told me Suikoden II was the best game ever years ago. I think that's reason enough in itself for you to play it.

[black orb]

>>> Suikoden II is one of the best things you`ll ever play..:luca:

I played FFT Advance and Tactics ogre too but I got bored fast..

[PoolHandMan]

well I agree that final fantasy tactics Advance/A2 looks a bit childish, when I played the first mission, that was beating your oponent by throwing snow balls I thought "damn, I'm outta here" but A2 is pretty decent (not as good as the FFT but you'll hava a good time)

about tactics ogre, I played a couple of times the psp version and it looked awesome, so I think you should try it.

A friend of mine said that Suikoden II is one of the best games he's ever played, but I never played it.

[Raistlin]

Raistlin told me Suikoden II was the best game ever years ago. I think that's reason enough in itself for you to play it.

:up:

Suikoden II is not an SRPG, and gameplay/battles are not its biggest positive. It's a more classic JRPG with a cool character system, but just has some of the best characters, development, and overall plot of any game I've ever played. It takes Suikoden I and makes almost every conceivable aspect better.

I'm not sure how you managed to go 12 hours without getting to the castle part. The game is only about 30 hours long even with some grinding and getting all 108 characters. And the game really does pick up after you get the castle, as more sidequests and mini-games become available, and the political plot advances further.

I have heard really good things about Tactics Ogre, though.

[VeloZer0]

I don't know exactly that it was 12 hours, that is just a number that is sticking in my head from 4 years ago. But the verdict is that I am going with Suikoden II. Tactics Ogre will probably get a try again after I finish, but probably not FFTA. Just looking at the screens posted in the FFT color pallet discussion turned me off the game all over again.

[chionos]

I'm not really a Suikoden fan, but you didn't provide a very robust list. SII is the only real option. TA and TA2 annoyed me greatly, and I absolutely, unrelentingly and without exception love FFT and basically anything else connected to Ivalice. I don't handle change well.

[Skyblade]

I don't know exactly that it was 12 hours, that is just a number that is sticking in my head from 4 years ago. But the verdict is that I am going with Suikoden II. Tactics Ogre will probably get a try again after I finish, but probably not FFTA. Just looking at the screens posted in the FFT color pallet discussion turned me off the game all over again.

There was only one FFTA screen posted, and it is of the first story mission in a city. It looks pretty much the way Rabanastre did.

If you're only judging a game by appearances and first impressions, I can gather some pics of the jagds, prisons, and caves for you. The game is not all bright and shiny all the time, it just recognizes how to use colors and lighting to affect tone, which FFT never did.


well I agree that final fantasy tactics Advance/A2 looks a bit childish, when I played the first mission, that was beating your oponent by throwing snow balls I thought "damn, I'm outta here" but A2 is pretty decent (not as good as the FFT but you'll hava a good time)

The first mission is just a character introduction and tutorial. You literally aren't even in the bloody world yet. Give the game a chance!

[VeloZer0]

No, it's the art style of the character sprites. The fact that it is colorful doesn't bother me. I also couldn't play FF4 on the PSP for the same reason.

[Masamunemaster]

Tactics advance is pretty great, it still makes me as happy as the original did.

I have always been looking for a copy of suikoden II to play if you decide you dont ever feel like giving it a chance;)

[Jowy]

So did you pick up Suikoden II yet?

[Del Murder]

Where can one get a hold of Suikoden II besides paying over $100 on ebay?

[VeloZer0]

Through completely legal means one would feel free to talk openly about on this forum. ;)

I've spent the last two weeks blowing of any responsibilities I can to get some time to play.... which has gotten me about 7 hours in. This might take a while.

[Del Murder]

So it's not on PSN or anything like that?

[Jowy]

NO. Just Suikoden I. :aimcry:

[Del Murder]

Is that one fun?

[Jowy]

Definitely recommended. Gameplay and graphics are extremely dated, but that's to be expected for a first gen PS1 RPG. Suikoden II just takes everything the first game had and polished it to perfection.

[Pumpkin]

Suikoden II is a great game. I finally ladied up and payed the $160 for it but it was worth it. I've played it twice, I will play it again, and now my boyfriend gets to enjoy it too.

It has a great story line and although the customization is limited, you do have some choices. Also, once you get further into the recruiting process you can easily find 5 characters out of 80 that you like and enjoy using. It's one of my favorite things about Suikoden. There are bound to be some characters you like and want to invest in. Of course I still build them all up but that's because I'm obsessive.

[VeloZer0]

One thing I really liked about S1 was the exponential increases to experience lower leveled party members get, and it looks like this is even stronger in S2. Unlike a lot of other games where if a character falls behind there is no point in even using them anymore because it is too much work to catch up.

[Jowy]

One thing I really liked about S1 was the exponential increases to experience lower leveled party members get, and it looks like this is even stronger in S2. Unlike a lot of other games where if a character falls behind there is no point in even using them anymore because it is too much work to catch up.

Be sure to keep at the very least eighteen different characters leveled up and well-geared. Trust me.

[VeloZer0]

That is something I appreciate knowing ahead of time.

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, I love the XP system in the games. I also forgot this entry introduced Rune Affinities so definetly experiment with that. Basically while you are free to equip any type of elemental rune on a character barring ones they have absolute terrible affinity with, most characters tend to gravitate towards one or another so if you want to keep your mages damage up, play with that.


Del - The first game is pretty good but its not spectacular either. There are SNES titles that have deeper gameplay and plots than Suikoden I but Suikoden I introduces the multiple battle systems like duels and the giant army battles, as well as the overall recruit 108 stars and build your castle mechanic. It still has a fairly good story and interesting battle system but its not going to win people over with any of that. If you intend to play Suikoden II though, I highly suggest beating Suikoden I cause nearly a third of the cast returns and SII doesn't really bother with keeping the player up to date about some of it.

[Jowy]

And if you play Suikoden before Suikoden II, you can roll your save file over for some special bonuses!

[Red Mage Coffman]

I would personally pick Final Fantasy Tactics Advance.

It is pretty much Final Fantasy Tactics stripped down for children. The story isn't anythign to serious, but it still has a degree of seriousness. I LOVE the battle/growth system, which has changed a little bit and the mission based gameplay made me fall in love. If it wasn't for this, I would have steered clear of Tactics. I can't say to much for the sequel cause I picked it up for five seconds, hated it, and returned it. I was judging a lot quicker than I should have, that being said.

I've heard Tactics Ogre is really good, same thing with Suikoden.

[Masamunemaster]

I have always thought that S1 had some amazing graphics, even now going back and playing it I say wow. Not only does the graphics and story feel amazing, but that was a while back too.

[VeloZer0]

Though I I think the sprites look good I find that the tile based graphics look primitive for that era in gaming. 2D sprites on 3D backgrounds such as in FFT or Xenogears looked much better imo, and obviously the pre-renders from FF7 knock the landscape from S2 out of the park. Even compared to something older like Chrono Trigger or FF6 I don't find the landscapes particularly engaging.

Which all told is a mild criticism, but since it was brought up.

[Wolf Kanno]

I have always thought that S1 had some amazing graphics, even now going back and playing it I say wow. Not only does the graphics and story feel amazing, but that was a while back too.

I'll admit the first game utilized some interesting tricks like some of the camera tricks during battles when you critical hit or use spells.

[Del Murder]

I have started Suikoden 1!

[Raistlin]

Del: great, I hope you enjoy it! Suikoden I is a solid game, though not the best in the series. It has enjoyable characters, an engaging plot, and the introduction to a complex and ever-expanding world that you can see in the later games. The major battle system is a little simply and quirky, but fun. The battle system is admittedly a bit simple, mostly because your rune options are limited, but it was overall a very good first try. And it's only about 20 hours long, so it's a quick and easy play. You might not like it as much as I still do due to the lack of a nostalgia factor, but I think you'll still enjoy it.

Suikoden II took almost everything SI did and made it a little bit better. It's a similar game in looks and feel, but with noticeable improvements basically everywhere. Unfortunately there's no way to play it legally without forking over a lot of cash, but if there's one game worth emulating, it's SII.