The advantage of RPGs: Why voice acting has lessened my joy for them

[Dr. rydrum2112]

"The advantage of RPGs: Why voice acting has lessened my joy for them."

Voice acting has been an aspect of video games for a long time. It wasn’t always technically possible, and it certainly wasn’t always implemented well, but the advent of voice acting was supposed to herald a turning point for storytelling in video games. Voice actors were tasked with bringing characters to life, furthering immersion and creating tales to rival other media. But, for the humble RPG, it might just have had the opposite effect.

The RPG is characterised as having a strong focus on storytelling and creating an immersive world. Perhaps two of the most acclaimed RPGs ever made were Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X, these games excelled at both storytelling and world building. Final Fantasy VII a Squaresoft Playstation and PC masterpiece – is a game predating the widespread use of voice acting, but whose characters have later been given a voice. In 2001, Final Fantasy X arrived and re-established what a mainstream RPG should be, and was the first completely voiced game in the series. We can compare these games in a case study for why voice acting has actually dulled the RPG genre and undermined its constructivist appeal.

One aspect of RPGs that I love is that each character in our party is, to some extent, customizable. Every single character is unique to us and our particular game. Let’s look to Final Fantasy X and its Sphere Grid as a prime example of this. The player can dictate the path and growth of each character, albeit limited by the “intended” and “default” paths somewhat. The moment the player gains access to Friend or Teleport Spheres, however, they are essentially able to freely shape a character in whatever manner they see fit, including which abilities to unlock and which stats to increase.

While FFX might have been the game to give the player the most control, we can look at a more restrictive system – such as the materia and equipment systems in FFVII – and can still see the freedom the player is given: the player can choose which materia to equip (which affects stats & abilities), as well as the characters’ weapons, armour and accessories (all providing boosts to various stats).

In both FFVII and FFX there is no party member who is by default a "white mage". The character fulfilling that role depends ultimately on whomever you choose to equip the restore material or activate the cure node, respectively.

Most FFs and other RPGs give you some control over shaping your characters’ roles. Combine this with the fact that many RPGs allow the player to make decisions that can affect the plot (including optional characters, branching storylines, etc.) of the game and, in essence, the player is given the ability to write their own story. Even in games with a linear plot and no story branching, we as players are able to mold the characters into what we want them to be. It gives these games more diversity, makes each playthrough different and and makes each character uniquely our own.

This gives players the opportunity to become an active agent in the story, unlike static media consisting of novels, films, and TV shows in which we are passive observers. Video games are more akin to what are called writerly texts (http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~raha/700_701_web/BarthesLO/readerly.html) - think back to the “Choose Your Own Adventure” books of our youth. Roleplaying games, and Final Fantasy in particular, allow us to put our own stamp on the experience.

Voice acting is now standard in RPG video games. Featured in nearly every title both blockbuster and indie, I can’t help but feel that voice acting is limiting the player’s ability to “own” their game. While this is obviously an opinion and hardly universally supported*, it is an opinion that is shared and an important one to note.

Let me clarify my main gripe. It is with voice acting in console RPGs, primarily Japanese in the same vein as the previously mentioned Final Fantasy series, in which the player takes an active role in battle, gameplay and story progression.

In my opinion adding a "voice" to characters lessens the immersion of RPGs. We, the player, can no longer imagine the voices we want each of the characters to have. In books, a predominately text-based medium, the reader has the ability to determine for themselves where emphasis would be placed, what characters sound like and even what they look like. This is similar to the voiceless RPG, where the dialogue and narration is purely text and gives the player the freedom to voice it themselves, in whatever way they deem best. Most of the early RPGs even allowed players to name the characters themselves.

If FFX were free of voice acting, then the infamous “laughing scene” would not have received the backlash that it did. Try this mini-experiment: mute your volume and watch the video below at 2:02-2:38, just imagining their laughter as pure text at the bottom of your screen.
gg9I54vFFms

Now unmute it and watch it again. Who the hell is going to tell me that the voice acting made that scene better? To me, it is one of the all-time most painful cutscenes ever made. If you’re a glutton for punishment, than you can try the same experiment and listen to the staccato Japanese version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAgVjH9V9Ps). This kind of experience is not unique to Final Fantasy X; those of you familiar with the Star Ocean series will probably share my feelings toward the awful voice acting in Star Ocean 4.

For those of us from the PS1 generation, it is easy to understand what I mean. We didn’t grow up with voice acting, and understand what games were like before it became widespread. Final Fantasy VII’s main character, Cloud Strife, is a good example of how a character can change when given a voice.
The Cloud that led my party against Sephiroth was not the same Cloud that led yours. My Cloud had a part-time healer role, while I know many of my friends used him purely as a brawler/hitter, and one friend actually used him as the primary black mage. Since my Cloud had a healing role, it helped to shape the way I viewed his personality. I did not have the impression that Cloud was a cold and distant individual; instead, my Cloud seemed friendlier and concerned with the well-being of his friends and comrades.

This explains why many people felt that Cloud’s portrayal in Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children was inaccurate. Most watched the film expecting to see their image of Cloud brought to life, and instead were met with a brooding and solitary version. In hindsight, it seems silly to think that the “official” voice and personality of Cloud would match the one we created. This same trouble is found with film adaptations of books - imagine having known Jack Reacher as 6’5’’... and then imagine my surprise when 5’7’’ Tom Cruise played him.

We shouldn’t by default blame the voice actors when our expectations are not met. Just because we disliked the voice acting does not mean the actor did a poor job. The fault lies within our perception; our expectations of the way a character would sound or behave weren’t met. This is one of the biggest risks in taking one of the voiceless RPG characters, particularly a classic such as Cloud from Final Fantasy VII, and giving him a voice.

While voice acting undoubtedly causes divides when brought into a universe which existed without it previously, the simple fact remains that by forcing players to listen to voice actors, the constructivist quality – that each character might resonate with the player in their own, unique way – diminishes. I yearn for a time where we can sit down as fellow enthusiasts and theorize about what each character might sound like while enjoying the differences in interpretation.

* See here (http://forums.gametrailers.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1133573), here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/90939-Why-Voice-Acting-Sucks-in-Games), here (http://voiceactors.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/video-game-voice-acting-sucks/), here (http://beefjack.com/news/blog-why-voice-acting-is-ruining-games/), and here (http://gamebanshee.com/news/105297-why-voice-acting-is-ruining-games.html) for other arguments as to why voice acting isn’t all it is cracked up to be.

I would like to thank the legendary Jiro for his comments on earlier drafts.

[Formalhaut]

Lovely article, I really like the part about the "voice" in text RPGs. I always viewed Cloud as compassionate towards his companions and was more conflicted and sarcastic than rude and cold.

Voice acting is one of those things that is either hit or miss.. while X had overall pretty shoddy VA, I found XII to be very good and just added to my paramour Balthier's personality. When done well, it really adds to the story and characterisation, but it isn't strictly needed.

[qwertysaur]

I'll argue about the laughter part. I'll concede that Tidus's is terrible, Yuna's is supposed to be bad. She has resigned herself to die to fight Sin, so having forced laughter like in the scene makes sense.

[Bolivar]

The only wrinkle to this argument is that with the advent of advanced graphics that can realistically portray a character's speaking and facial expressions, it would almost seem creepy to not hear them actually speak. Obviously you and others will disagree, since you pointed out the laughing seemed more natural without it.

Other than that, though, I'm totally on board. I think this is analogous to how we always say "the book is better than the film." A story can be a lot more powerful, personal, and (subsequently) memorable when it's all in your imagination than when someone shows you exactly how it happens.

There are only a few films where the quality of the acting was of such magnitude that the movie was just as good if not better than the book (The Godfather, Fight Club). Accordingly, I think a few games have pulled this off as well, specifically Final Fantasy XII (convenient we're here to talk about it). Give me that acting anyday.

Ken Rolston, the lead designer of Morrowind, Oblivion, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, and a host of tabletop RPGs, said the same thing (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2006/05/23/oblivions_ken_rolston_speaks/2). He was partially talking about the volume of dialogue options, but he would probably agree with our other position as well.

[Aulayna]

I may be wildly of base with how I interpreted this so bear with me...

So despite Tidus being voice acted there's still quite a wide disparity of opinion on what people thought of him as a protagonist and how people interpreted his narrative progression (from some arguing he's a spoilt selfish brat to others viewing him as a selfless help the helpless hero). Going by your argument that voice acting gives people a carbon copy character with little room for differentiation - this wouldn't be the case?

Likewise with Cloud. Regardless of how you choose to build him he's still going to say the exact same lines of dialogue throughout the entire game and come to the exact same revelations. Just because Jane decides to use him as a Black Mage and John uses him as a Healer it doesn't cause John's character to suddenly be this happy go lucky character in story - he'll still see the same portrayal of Cloud as Jane would just that when it comes to playing him their experiences will be different. It really is a substantial leap of faith to make that some lines of obviously broody and emotional dialogue would be interpreted as "hey I don't give a flying fuck" because of how the player builds the character - which ultimately only serves functional purpose within the Battles in the game.

When you make a jump from one medium to another there are going to be sacrifices made - even if Advent Children had no voice acting at all it wouldn't really have made a difference. Throughout all the concepts of Cloud as a character it's very clear that his "default" way is a Brawler which naturally then gets taken as canon going into Advent Children. Voice acting plays very little in that - film as a medium provides less hands on interaction than games do.

Even so that level of interaction has limitations - if you are playing a scripted story with scripted characters you are essentially playing someone elses characters. Whilst you may have flexibility over the battle style inbetween at the end of the day the characters will behave as the script dictates - regardless of if VA'ed or not. If Cloud is going to flail his sword around and smash NPCs during a dialogue sequence then he's going to flail his sword around and smash NPCs regardless of whether you've been playing him as Thief who wants nothing better than to bathe in a bed stolen of money and disregarding the personality the game gives you is really pushing on the boundaries of creative investment.

Also the majority of those articles you've linked too focus more on the overall quality of the voice acting and the institutional reasons why voice acting as a whole in video games isn't quite up to par yet. One of them used it in reference to MMOs and how it's a cover up for bad story - when in most MMOs (SWTOR aside) voice acting is used for key narrative sequences only and the majority is still done through text. Which a lot of it is actually pretty good text telling pretty compelling stories - but the nature of MMOs is the majority of players are looking for the fastest path from A to B and only the most compelling stories are going to grab their attention and if every quest in the game was some epic life of death pivotal moment it'd really start nailing into the suspension of disbelief.

The Secret World tackles this in an interesting way by making the player character silent. They never say a damn thing, don't even grunt in pain when hit, no death yell etc - but the voice acting on all the quests is amazing and really works in the favour of drawing you into that game space. Yet the entire time the player character remains silent, which to some gives them more immersion because they can ponder the details, others it's a novelty and others find it annoying after a while where the dust collecting on the desk infront of them is having more of an emotional reaction than their character.

The same is true of Mass Effect, all voice acted - yet I still felt like my Shepard was MY Shepard and this was MY experience and she was built how I wanted to play and that differed from my friends Shepard. But again in ME3 which was culminating a the story it meant that some of the divergent paths had to be annexed - but that was more due to the game design, narrative as a whole than the voice acting.

As for that FFX scene it looks ridiculous with or without voice acting and I probably would've raised at least an eye brow eve without the voice acting.

The issue with voice acting as a whole right now in video gaming is quite succintly addressed in that Escapist article you linked:

The Escapist : News : Why Voice Acting Sucks in Games (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/90939-Why-Voice-Acting-Sucks-in-Games)

When done well it adds a whole layer to the experience of the game. When done badly you'll wish it wasn't there - much like some of the questionable VA work in Metal Gear Solid. But as it becomes more commonplace in the medium the level of implementation and quality will hopefully increase.

But at the end of the day memorable dialogue or storytelling doesn't become any less memorable based on it's method of delivery. I still think of what characters say in different voices to how they say them but maybe I'm alone in that it doesn't cause a huge mental disconnect to me to do so.

So whilst I do disagree with your delivery of your point I will agree that VA can detract from the medium - but at the same time when it's done well it adds to the overall experience as a whole.

[Bolivar]

Actually Aulayna, one of the more overlooked features of Final Fantasy VII was its branching dialogues which changed how you interacted with people and influenced how much certain party members liked you. It didn't all have to be obviously broody. I also have to question him being a brawler. He has the highest Magic stat in the game. Keeping him in the back row to nuke is a pretty legit strategy in lower level playthroughs. After all, he dresses in all blue, has spikey hair instead of a pointy hat (yellow), and his hometown burning down coinciding with him only starting with Lightning/Ice echoes Rydia from FFIV pretty strongly. At least, that's how I interpret it ;)

I guess we're all going to have to agree to disagree here. I definitely have to stand by my memorability assertion about text vs. voice. A Song of Ice and Fire is a pretty good example. There's lines from those books that will stay with me forever. There's some good actors in Game of Thrones, but none of the lines really stay with me, even when they're delivered from the book.

[Aulayna]

(Re-reading this reply I guess we will be agreeing to disagree here. :p)

Whilst FFVII did have branching dialogues, honestly, the only one really worth writing home about was the Gold Saucer date mechanics. The rest of them merely as backstory and had very little impact on your characters main scripted personality or motivations. Compare that to say something like an Elder Scrolls game where most of the time you're essentially given a blank canvas to project your idea of your character onto and is a far better example of the game world reacting to how you play. In the case of the latter I could understand why people would get hung up on it when that gets taken away. But again there's voice acted RPGs that have had divergent paths too - does the voice acting take away from that?

I also think, in RPG contexts at least, there's far more to this than just singling out voice acting specifically. You even mentioned it yourself Bolivar:


The only wrinkle to this argument is that with the advent of advanced graphics that can realistically portray a character's speaking and facial expressions, it would almost seem creepy to not hear them actually speak.

This is very much an issue when it comes to video gaming. Books, being a very non-visual medium, leave a whole lot to the imagination. For example if a character is a 5'5" brown haired medium build guy - I'll probably imagine a completely different look for him than the next person will. However in games you're immediately shown how the character looks - likewise with locations. We've progressed a long way from the sprite art which only so much was capable of and still left a large amount to the imagination (as with books) to the point of either very realistic or highly stylized art directions that can accurately convey facial expressions and emotions. Likewise we have a whole section of the gaming audience that find it hard to go back and play older titles based on the dated graphics and/or mechanics which undermines the element plot has to play - but that's a whole other tangent altogether.

However just like it's taken film makers over a century of refining and redefining their craft - the same is going to be true of video games. For some the trade-off between things being left to their imagination is too great, whereas others prefer the new level of immersion and cinematic experience it provides.

On that note is the issue with Advent Children really because it gave the characters a voice or because the plot of Advent Children as a whole was a terrible exploitation of vague loose ends from FFVII to allow for a cinematic anime action style fight between Cloud and Sephiroth? Would that have changed if it wasn't voice acted?

Honestly I just don't feel that singling out the FF series is a good lens through which to look at this. The issue with VA in FF is more down to implementation and quality than it is with what it may or may not fundamentally detract from the experience. FF games as a whole still largely use the same character archtypes and if anything all VA has served to do is draw highlight to this but the base core is still there. I do agree that in video games as a whole VA can and does detract from the experience.

This is without even touching base on the shift in gameplay design as we've moved into a very Hollywood-esque blockbuster driven market.

[Loony BoB]

I don't think XIII and XIII-2's voice acting was all that bad, really. X's was rubbish for the most part, particularly in the cases of Yuna, Tidus and Seymour who - at least for me - all had very annoying voices. But in the case of XIII, I think they did alright and am glad for the voice acting - particularly when you're dealing with such things as on-the-go banter which XIII in particular made good use of. I really loved that kind of thing.

What I will concede, however, is that my appreciation of gaming music has dropped dramatically since the advent of voice acting. They always talk over the musical scores and that means I tend to zone the music out and focus on the discussion, which isn't how it should be. The same can be said for constant sound effects such as footsteps. I think XIII-2 got these issues a little more balanced - I'm not sure how, I think they must have simply adjusted various default volumes of the music/effects/voices, but either way it ended up with me actually noticing the music as well as the dialogue.

If you want to see a great example of fantastic voice acting in video games, look no further than The Longest Journey and Dreamfall.

[Aulayna]

What I will concede, however, is that my appreciation of gaming music has dropped dramatically since the advent of voice acting. They always talk over the musical scores and that means I tend to zone the music out and focus on the discussion, which isn't how it should be. The same can be said for constant sound effects such as footsteps. I think XIII-2 got these issues a little more balanced - I'm not sure how, I think they must have simply adjusted various default volumes of the music/effects/voices, but either way it ended up with me actually noticing the music as well as the dialogue.

This for sure is something I can agree with. Though I'm rather finnicky and in most games now have to toy around with the settings so I can hear everything clearly.

I do like the part about the banter. That was one thing I liked about Mass Effect as well is the banter between characters during combat etc - of course there are also games where this is excessively over done to the point of Ocarina of Time Navi level of annoyance.

One particular game that springs to mind on that note is Borderlands 2 on certain missions where the NPCs have a dire habbit of constantly yelling at you to do something every 50 seconds - you need to lower it's shields, you need to lower it's shields, you need to lower it... SHUT THE smurf UP!

Hey! Hey! LISTEN! Look! HEY! LISTEN!

[Loony BoB]

Batman does that in Arkham City. I'm trying to do some fancy but tricky move with a remote batarang and Batman keeps repeating that "I NEED TO OVERPOWER THE FUSE, I COULD DO THIS WITH A BATARANG." and I'm all "I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW IF YOU WANT TO DO IT SO MUCH THEN BLOODY STOP THROWING YOUR BATARANGS AND MISSING BY ONE FREAKING INCH." @_@ I blame him because he's such a butthole with his repeating himself. Otherwise it would probably have been my fault.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

I may be wildly of base with how I interpreted this so bear with me...

So despite Tidus being voice acted there's still quite a wide disparity of opinion on what people thought of him as a protagonist and how people interpreted his narrative progression (from some arguing he's a spoilt selfish brat to others viewing him as a selfless help the helpless hero). Going by your argument that voice acting gives people a carbon copy character with little room for differentiation - this wouldn't be the case?

uhm- no. I said it takes a little piece away from the uniqueness of my experience. There is a section in my article showing how FFX is still constructivist & experiential, and that clearly has voice acting.



Also the majority of those articles you've linked too focus more on the overall quality of the voice acting and the institutional reasons why voice acting as a whole in video games isn't quite up to par yet.

Pretty sure I specifically say this, with "for other arguments as to why voice acting isn’t all it is cracked up to be."


Even so that level of interaction has limitations - if you are playing a scripted story with scripted characters you are essentially playing someone elses characters. Whilst you may have flexibility over the battle style inbetween at the end of the day the characters will behave as the script dictates - regardless of if VA'ed or not.


The same is true of Mass Effect, all voice acted - yet I still felt like my Shepard was MY Shepard and this was MY experience and she was built how I wanted to play and that differed from my friends Shepard. But again in ME3 which was culminating a the story it meant that some of the divergent paths had to be annexed - but that was more due to the game design, narrative as a whole than the voice acting.

Are you on both sides of the fence here? Seems like you agree with me in the second paragraph.


But again there's voice acted RPGs that have had divergent paths too - does the voice acting take away from that?
Voice acting takes away the ability for me to give the character the voice that I want to give them/think is appropriate.


Honestly I just don't feel that singling out the FF series is a good lens through which to look at this. The issue with VA in FF is more down to implementation and quality than it is with what it may or may not fundamentally detract from the experience. FF games as a whole still largely use the same character archtypes and if anything all VA has served to do is draw highlight to this but the base core is still there. I do agree that in video games as a whole VA can and does detract from the experience.

Well 1, this is a final fantasy forum so obviously I should use that as a reference/example. I guess you missed what I said again. My point was that everyone just says the voice acting is bad- how do you know the voice acting wasn't exactly as it was intended by the creators? The idea of just bad voice acting is confounded with the idea that our expectations of what the characters should sound like aren't met.

[Aulayna]

I may be wildly of base with how I interpreted this so bear with me...

So despite Tidus being voice acted there's still quite a wide disparity of opinion on what people thought of him as a protagonist and how people interpreted his narrative progression (from some arguing he's a spoilt selfish brat to others viewing him as a selfless help the helpless hero). Going by your argument that voice acting gives people a carbon copy character with little room for differentiation - this wouldn't be the case?

uhm- no. I said it takes a little piece away from the uniqueness of my experience. There is a section in my article showing how FFX is still constructivist & experiential, and that clearly has voice acting.

I appreciate that. What I was trying to suggest is that if voice acting supposedly reduces the uniqueness of the experience then surely more people would come to a similar conclusion about the character? Yet there's just as many views and thoughts of Tidus as a character compared to other major characters pre-voice acting so perhaps this isn't the case.




Also the majority of those articles you've linked too focus more on the overall quality of the voice acting and the institutional reasons why voice acting as a whole in video games isn't quite up to par yet.

Pretty sure I specifically say this, with "for other arguments as to why voice acting isn’t all it is cracked up to be."

You're right on this one, I misinterpretted your use of the asterix as trying to support the point you were trying to make at that point in time rather than just presenting auxillary information.



Even so that level of interaction has limitations - if you are playing a scripted story with scripted characters you are essentially playing someone elses characters. Whilst you may have flexibility over the battle style inbetween at the end of the day the characters will behave as the script dictates - regardless of if VA'ed or not.


The same is true of Mass Effect, all voice acted - yet I still felt like my Shepard was MY Shepard and this was MY experience and she was built how I wanted to play and that differed from my friends Shepard. But again in ME3 which was culminating a the story it meant that some of the divergent paths had to be annexed - but that was more due to the game design, narrative as a whole than the voice acting.

Are you on both sides of the fence here? Seems like you agree with me in the second paragraph.

Not really no. Voice acting was not the problem with Mass Effect 3 - the problem was that for the sake of culmination they had to annex some of the sub-narratives in a way that was rather abrupt or seemingly forced. This would've been the case regardless of whether or not it was voice acted due to the conclusion they were trying to build too at the end of the game. That's an issue with the design of the game, not the voice acting. Voice acting played very little in that - the reason why I brought it up was as a counter to you saying that voice acting reduces the players capacity to be able to "own" their characters.



But again there's voice acted RPGs that have had divergent paths too - does the voice acting take away from that?
Voice acting takes away the ability for me to give the character the voice that I want to give them/think is appropriate.

This is fair enough. But likewise graphical advancements take away the room left for imagination - is that diminishing your experience too?



Honestly I just don't feel that singling out the FF series is a good lens through which to look at this. The issue with VA in FF is more down to implementation and quality than it is with what it may or may not fundamentally detract from the experience. FF games as a whole still largely use the same character archtypes and if anything all VA has served to do is draw highlight to this but the base core is still there. I do agree that in video games as a whole VA can and does detract from the experience.

Well 1, this is a final fantasy forum so obviously I should use that as a reference/example. I guess you missed what I said again. My point was that everyone just says the voice acting is bad- how do you know the voice acting wasn't exactly as it was intended by the creators? The idea of just bad voice acting is confounded with the idea that our expectations of what the characters should sound like aren't met.

On the topic of voice acting being bad. Yes there is obviously room for creative vision but at the same time bad voice acting is just as clear as bad acting. Now the developers may have a vision behind it that gets lost in translation but for the most part the topic of bad voice acting is covered in the articles you linked. Actors are given no time to prepare and are expected to turn up and deliver on the day with very little time to prepare meaning that the tones and accentuations of the voice may be completely off key for certain lines becaue they haven't had time to prepare for it. This really detracts from the whole exerpience and it creates a sense of awkwardness - just like bad acting in a film results in the loss of the suspension of disbelief which disengages the audience.

Now you are right that this is a Final Fantasy forum but the very nature of the Final Fantasy series is it's always been one that has had some base elements but always tried to refine, define and then redefine itself. From the shift from 2d to pre-rendered backdrops and low-res polygonal models all the way up to the stylized realism of XIII. Voice acting coming into this is something I've always seen as par for the course with a series as iterative as FF. Outside of XIII though we're never really stuck with the same set of characters for an extended period of time. Advent Children was the first exception to this and whilst the VA may have taken away from our memories of the characters I think the real issue was more the sheer amount the film as a whole stripped away from the characters for the sake of commercial exploitation.

However, just because this is an FF forum doesn't mean we can't look beyond that scope at other games where this topic is having quite notable impacts:

The Metroid franchise for example. This is a prime case in favour of your argument. Samus Aran the silent heroine who was always the lone wolf in the galaxy for nearly every instalment. Then along comes Metroid: Other M - she gets voice acting and suddenly interactions with a whole host of NPC characters completely turning the character fans know and love on it's head in an attempt to become more "personal" but at the same time completely alienating her from some fans in the process.

Likewise Nintendo's decision to specifically not have voice acting in The Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword despite the Wii being more than capable of doing it because they were worried it wouldn't meet fans expectations or pre-conceived notions.

So I do get what your saying, honestly, like say for example if they remade FFVI with voice acting and Celes sounded like Vanille I'd be pretty outraged about it too. But when it comes to FF games each instalment is essentially it's own self-contained bubble so it's certainly a lot more difficult to go in with a set of expectations about the matter compared to Metroid for example. Developers do seem to be making leaps and bounds these days to make sure the voice acting carries a lot more credence than before.

All I'm really trying to highlight is the contrary, that there are cases where voice acting has worked in a games favour. I appreciate that for you voice acting diminishes your ability to put your own imagination into the character but for me - personally - when voice acting is done well and adds to the successful emotional delivery of the narrative it's a trade-off I'm willing to make and it doesn't come as quite as much of a detriment to the experience for me. But at the end of the day this is all just personal preference and this article is about why you don't enjoy voice acted RPGs so I digress.

[chionos]

Disclaimer: You're certainly entitled to your opinion about voice acting. If it lessens your joy, sobeit. But, your pedantic replies imply, to me, that you think other people should share your opinions.

Video games, at least in this context, are not books turned into movies. Analogies between the two medias do not work.

If you really want to play your character your way, play D&D/WhiteWolf/Pathfinder, etc. Video games are scripted; even sandbox RPG's are limited in what you can do with your character.

Giving Cloud a voice in the transition from FFVII to AC is a specific case, and can hardly be used as an example for VA in general. Actually, it can't be used at all. It's just silly, because the VA in AC had nothing to do with the way the voiceover was acted or directed and everything to do with the way the writers of AC chose to make the character. Cloud's character, his personality, is what shattered some fans' expectations, not his voice.

The "expectation" argument does not work, because, as I said above, video games are not books-turned-into-films. These aren't characters you knew through text. You didn't develop your own voice for Tidus, only to be disappointed when you heard him speak.

How could the voice acting have anything whatsoever to do with how you play a character? Unless you hold to stereotyped roles for characters (your big black guy has to have a big black guy voice and do big black guy things like shooting stuff) the voice should not change how you view the character, except for cases of truly bad voice acting, which is not the rule. Most voice acting, especially now, is passable when not actually spot-on. But when it is bad, it sure can be measured objectively, and is definitely not just the result of our expectations.

I aspire to the Keatsian concept of Negative Capability in regards to movies and video games. Let them be what they're supposed to be. I have more to say, but my computer's crapping out. I'll be back.

[Bolivar]

I'd go as far as saying video game music as a whole has been pretty mediocre as of late. Everyone's just imitating Danny Elfman and Harry Gregson-Williams. No more Nobuo Uematsu's creating their own sounds and genres.

[Citizen Bleys]

everyone just says the voice acting is bad- how do you know the voice acting wasn't exactly as it was intended by the creators?

By watching something with good voice acting :)

Bad voice acting is a null tell. Good English-speaking voice actors come in only two flavours: Gilbert Gottfried and Robin Williams.

It's a cultural thing. In North America, animation has for decades been viewed as just for kids. That's starting to change now with shows like Archer, but the first thing that I tend to think when I see animation is "Oh, a kid's show."

In Japan, animation has been taken more seriously since before I was born. You can't tell me Gundam 0079 with all of its death and sympathetic villains, was intended for children. The current generation of Japanese voice actors take their work as seriously as their live-action counterparts. The same is just not true of North Americans, and it shows in their shite voice acting.

As an experiment, try playing Lost Odyssey with the English voices for a while. When they start to irritate you (it shouldn't take long), switch to the Japanese ones.

Give it ten years or so.

[NeoCracker]

I'd actually argue that the US has quite a few damn talented voice actors now. Back in 2000 with the english dub of Cowboy Bebop we got quite a few really talented voice actors, may favorite of which being Stephen Blum. Not to forget Crispin Freeman and Liam O'Brian.

We may not be up to par with how seriously Japan takes it, but we still have a pretty damn good Talent pool to draw from these days. :p

[Dr. rydrum2112]

Disclaimer: You're certainly entitled to your opinion about voice acting. If it lessens your joy, sobeit. But, your pedantic replies imply, to me, that you think other people should share your opinions.
Nope, you can think what you want. Doesn't really affect me if you agree or disagree.

Sorry, if I wanted to replay to Aulayna's comments, and make sure she understood what I meant. She even replied back and I completely understand her (well made)points- feel free to skip them if you are uninterested in them.


Video games, at least in this context, are not books turned into movies. Analogies between the two medias do not work.
I didn't say they were.


Giving Cloud a voice in the transition from FFVII to AC is a specific case, and can hardly be used as an example for VA in general. Actually, it can't be used at all. It's just silly, because the VA in AC had nothing to do with the way the voiceover was acted or directed and everything to do with the way the writers of AC chose to make the character. Cloud's character, his personality, is what shattered some fans' expectations, not his voice.
Right- his personality was different, which is what I said. Did you read it?


The "expectation" argument does not work, because, as I said above, video games are not books-turned-into-films. These aren't characters you knew through text. You didn't develop your own voice for Tidus, only to be disappointed when you heard him speak.
Right, I don't get to do that anymore. So I am disappointed when a character says something that I think is "out of character". Not sure how you you are missing this.


How could the voice acting have anything whatsoever to do with how you play a character? Unless you hold to stereotyped roles for characters (your big black guy has to have a big black guy voice and do big black guy things like shooting stuff) the voice should not change how you view the character, except for cases of truly bad voice acting, which is not the rule. Most voice acting, especially now, is passable when not actually spot-on. But when it is bad, it sure can be measured objectively, and is definitely not just the result of our expectations.
I didn't say voice acting changed the way I used a character- did you read what I wrote?
And I didn't say it was JUST the result of our expectations- I don't think you read what I wrote.

[chionos]

I'm sorry we're having trouble communicating here rydrum, because I did read your initial post, and I stand by my interpretation of it.

Perhaps, if multiple people are misunderstanding you, the fault lies not with them, but with the way you're articulating your points?

You implied the connection between books-into-films and voice acting by mentioning them together several times. In the same paragraph. Thus creating an analogy. Analogies are meant to show how one thing is like another thing. Perhaps that was an accident?

Maybe I'm not making myself clear, either.

When you say, "I am disappointed when a character says something that I think is 'out of character'," I'm not getting how this is connected to the voice acting in particular. To me, that's a script problem. That happens even in books, where there are no voices or images to otherwise cloud the audience's perception.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

I'm sorry we're having trouble communicating here rydrum, because I did read your initial post, and I stand by my interpretation of it.

Perhaps, if multiple people are misunderstanding you, the fault lies not with them, but with the way you're articulating your points?

You implied the connection between books-into-films and voice acting by mentioning them together several times. In the same paragraph. Thus creating an analogy. Analogies are meant to show how one thing is like another thing. Perhaps that was an accident?

Maybe I'm not making myself clear, either.

When you say, "I am disappointed when a character says something that I think is 'out of character'," I'm not getting how this is connected to the voice acting in particular. To me, that's a script problem. That happens even in books, where there are no voices or images to otherwise cloud the audience's perception.
You are welcome to interpret it how you want, that is independent of what was actually there. What you claimed I said, and what I said were different.

Nope, a book into a film is mentioned 1 time. It was an example of what I was discussing (my surprise at how I expected a character to be based on past experiences and how they are in the new form). That is the only comparison made with books into films.

Yes, it could be a function of the script (never said it wasn't) and/or it could be a function of the way the line was voiced. And did I say it was a problem exclusively of voice acted video games?

[DMKA]

I find them far more enjoyable with voice acting.

The only reason the older titles didn't have it was because of technical limitations.

Oh, and I tried your experiment. It's just as endearingly awkward with the text and without the voice. Still more enjoyable with the voices though.

X's voice acting had it's moments that were...less than stellar, but for it's time it was a lot better than most other games at the time, and by today's standards, it's still not terrible. If you'd like to hear some truly bad voice acting, just look up any of the Dynasty Warriors games from the PS2 era, or Majin and the Forsaken Kingdom for this generation.

XIII and XIII-2 both have fantastic voice acting. There's just moments where the dialog could have been better written. :P

[Dr. rydrum2112]

I find them far more enjoyable with voice acting.

The only reason the older titles didn't have it was because of technical limitations.

Oh, and I tried your experiment. It's just as endearingly awkward with the text and without the voice. Still more enjoyable with the voices though.

thanks for trying it!

[chionos]

I'm not getting how this is connected to the voice acting in particular. To me, that's a script problem. That happens even in books, where there are no voices or images to otherwise cloud the audience's perception.

Yes, it could be a function of the script (never said it wasn't) and/or it could be a function of the way the line was voiced. And did I say it was a problem exclusively of voice acted video games?

Certainly implied it, by titling the thread "why voice acting has lessened my joy..." and not "why voice acting and changes to characters' personalities in general has lessened my joy..."

Listen, I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. Not everything someone says by way of responding to a thread topic is a direct assault on the op. You don't have to preface everything you say to me with "I never said that." I know what you said. I've reread what you wrote several times just in case I missed something. I thought this was a thread about voice acting, but when I try to defend voice acting you say you aren't talking about voice acting.:confused: What's the actual topic here?

I'm going to try to break this down so we can figure out why I'm confused.

You say voice acting has kept RPGs from achieving their goal of creating an immersive experience.

You use Cloud in AC as an example.

I say Cloud in AC had nothing to do with voice acting.

You say you never said that.

So the Cloud example has nothing to do with voice acting directly, but is instead a parallel example of how changes to a character can be detrimental to a fan's enjoyment of said character, because expectations are shattered. Yes?

So what's an example of voice acting itself not meeting expectations? Cloud doesn't answer that, nor does Tidus. Perhaps we're (I'm) getting hung up on the word "expectations?"

If so, all I'm left with from this is that voice acting is bad because the designers should allow the audience to voice the characters in their own heads, based on a few (precious few) examples of bad voice acting. And yeah, as Bleys said, some voice acting is just bad, even if that's the way the designers scripted and directed it. Tidus' laugh isn't bad because it's voice acted. It isn't bad because my expectations at that moment were not met. It's bad because the director and actor failed.

Early attempts at special affects in movies could be viewed the same way. Special effects in movies are so bad sometimes that they wrench the audience out of the movie, effectively taking away their ability to suspend disbelief. When they're not executed perfectly they take away from the film's immersion factor. But does that mean movies shouldn't have special effects? No, it means the people creating the special effects need to do a better job.

Video games are the ultimate entertainment medium, in that they are a visual, aural, and even tactile experience (and if they ever actually perfect the scent boxes...). Fully voiced characters are, and should be, part of that experience.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

Listen, I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. Not everything someone says by way of responding to a thread topic is a direct assault on the op. You don't have to preface everything you say to me with "I never said that." I know what you said. I've reread what you wrote several times just in case I missed something. I thought this was a thread about voice acting, but when I try to defend voice acting you say you aren't talking about voice acting.:confused: What's the actual topic here?

I'm going to try to break this down so we can figure out why I'm confused.

You say voice acting has kept RPGs from achieving their goal of creating an immersive experience.

Last response from me,

If you aren't trying to be antagonistic why are you making things up that I said/claim? Here is an example: "You say voice acting has kept RPGs from achieving their goal of creating an immersive experience."

Except I never said that. All I said is that in my opinion it has made RPGs a little less immersive (as I don't get to personalize characters as much). Not even close to what you claim I said. I even talked about how FFX IS immersive, and that is a voice acted game...

There really is no point in responding as you just change what I write.

[chionos]

If you aren't trying to be antagonistic why are you making things up that I said/claim? Here is an example: "You say voice acting has kept RPGs from achieving their goal of creating an immersive experience."

Except I never said that. All I said is that in my opinion it has made RPGs a little less immersive (as I don't get to personalize characters as much). Not even close to what you claim I said.



Voice acting has been an aspect of video games for a long time. It wasn’t always technically possible, and it certainly wasn’t always implemented well, but the advent of voice acting was supposed to herald a turning point for storytelling in video games. Voice actors were tasked with bringing characters to life, furthering immersion and creating tales to rival other media. But, for the humble RPG, it might just have had the opposite effect.


Not twisting your words, bruh.

I'm not sure why you're turning this into a fight. Do you just flatly dismiss anything anybody says that doesn't line up with your opinions? I'll be honest, though, I did get a laugh out of "not even close..." so maybe this is an attempt at humor? Facetiousness?

Once again:

Are there any examples of good quality voice acting itself being a detriment to a game? This isn't a challenge to rydrum, but a question for everybody. And it's not rhetorical (it's shitty that I have to explain myself like this).

I'm a reader. I read books more often than I play games. So I'm certainly not against text. I enjoy subtitles in foreign movies in languages I don't understand. I read all the extra information in games, like the books in Elder Scrolls games or the extra historical information and monster-data in FFXII. And yet, even concerning games with bad voice acting, I'd rather take the voices than leave them.

[Bolivar]

It's a cultural thing. In North America, animation has for decades been viewed as just for kids. That's starting to change now with shows like Archer, but the first thing that I tend to think when I see animation is "Oh, a kid's show."

...

Give it ten years or so.

Not sure where you're getting this from. Adult-oriented animation goes back to Fritz the Cat and Heavy Metal in the West and even shows like South Park are pretty old nowadays. As NeoCracker pointed out, there's been a well-established pool of credible voice actors and you frequently see their name pop up in a lot of games and shows. Even hollywood stars have been getting into it or a while now, with Jason Statham being in the first Call of Duty almost a decade ago now.

[Formalhaut]

If you aren't trying to be antagonistic why are you making things up that I said/claim? Here is an example: "You say voice acting has kept RPGs from achieving their goal of creating an immersive experience."

Except I never said that. All I said is that in my opinion it has made RPGs a little less immersive (as I don't get to personalize characters as much). Not even close to what you claim I said.



Voice acting has been an aspect of video games for a long time. It wasn’t always technically possible, and it certainly wasn’t always implemented well, but the advent of voice acting was supposed to herald a turning point for storytelling in video games. Voice actors were tasked with bringing characters to life, furthering immersion and creating tales to rival other media. But, for the humble RPG, it might just have had the opposite effect.


Not twisting your words, bruh.

I'm not sure why you're turning this into a fight. Do you just flatly dismiss anything anybody says that doesn't line up with your opinions? I'll be honest, though, I did get a laugh out of "not even close..." so maybe this is an attempt at humor? Facetiousness?

:roll2 Fairly certain he's not trying to be America's next top comedian. And if he was flatly dismissing every opinion wouldn't he be putting his hands on his head and going "I can't hear you"? :p

I think voice acting done well has the potential to really bolster a game, but if it is done terribly, your probably better off not even having voice acting. I can't really think of a game with good voice acting that would be better without it. It'd be like chopping off a perfectly useful arm.

[Raistlin]

I sympathize with the OP's argument, although I don't really care that strongly about voice acting in and of itself. I do like older RPGs that seemed to allow you better immerse yourself in the main protagonist, but I don't think that's mutually exclusive to voice acting. I thought Lunar: SSSC, for example, did a great job, and it also had voice acting, though limited to cutscenes.

Basically, I consider voice acting as similar to high-quality graphics: they can be nice, but too often modern games focus too much development time on them. They should be nice bonuses, but entirely secondary to gameplay and plot. They can be done well, but sometimes end up just hurting the game overall.

[NeoCracker]

You what what? Fuck my current playthrough of FF VII. I'm switching to some Lunar. ;P

[Dr. rydrum2112]

I just played Lunar Eternal Blue a few months ago- fantastic game.