Final Fantasy- Anti God ?

[maybee]

Do you reckon that Final Fantasy is anti God and anti religion ?

Game Theory: Why Final Fantasy is Anti-Religion - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLhiWw3pzQk&ytsession=5H6vCvYfrsrmpV5K9kdv5WSoZxYDRNMZrqsfQvRUb0TT49tc1FlN6DFzwENtULNb1aQiBTOOEREV7Vy1DTWco9wb8U nr3DR0J3TwFbOnKW731mCXWT_S37o5KtFmDFdiKgQ3fUKyrU_di8xAo2KToNHa5HwniaYn0DkRb-8pdTYJZINHR0USjYSiByI86caXKjlua1pcxMKw1HtG7oLwMSASbmlkVPHpswVgnls3rwL6KCnrfAKW1PiYWDT0XkJEIbwRBw-TrBK5VQpguhQac6XITdp_4INzY35oZHMXtyU)

Thoughts ? It could be. Tactics defiantly spells that, however Kefka and Sephiroth were not really god as in the actual god. They just wanted to be god and therefore in my eyes they symbolize a false god so Cloud and Terra tackle down false idols. Also Kefka & Seph are filled with arrogance and pride, and pride is looked down upon in Christianity, just look at the Seven Sins. Pride is viewed as the worse and the most offending because nobody should be better or feel like they are better than the actual god.

FF X ? It could just symbolize not to follow cults willy nilly because you could end up doing something stupid like killing yourself in vain and looking and feeling like a moron. * Cough, Wakka, Cough * !

But then there is moments where like Headmaster Cid has fucking Satan in a lamp and he's like a ally in battle and even helps you out as the game goes along. And the pentagram star is a transport in FF 3 and appears in FF X while you summon Ifrit, before he appears out of the ground.

Your thoughts on this ?

[The Man]

FFX is pretty critical of organised religion but I don't think the other games are particularly anti-religious. Sephiroth and Kefka could both be interpreted as people who try to usurp the gods (well, goddesses in FFVI's case). Kefka definitely. I don't really remember there being much presence of deities in FFVII's world although it has been years since I played the game. Haven't played Tactics so I can't comment on that.

[black orb]

>>> Is just old good classic fantasy, all these genres are filled with gods, demons, evil/dark priests/churches, etc..:luca:
I see them everywhere not just FF..

[Pete for President]

That video... is total trout. What's with the negative undertone? Why is he trying his best to "scare us" or make Square look like some demonic reincarnation?

People have always tried to become "gods", very similar to some FF villains. It's nothing new. The Roman emperors, leaders in China, even genetic manipulation and cloning are kind of like trying to become a god. Not all of these attempts are/were for the better of mankind.

[Forsaken Lover]

For the love of...

WILL ANYONE EVER REMEMBER THAT YU YEVON WAS NOT THE GOD OF THE YEVON FAITH?

Wakka and Lulu, devout followers of the religion, HAD NO IDEA WHO THE GUY WAS.

I get it's a bit confusing that Yu Yevon has nothing to do with the actual Church of Yevon but come on people. Far too many people make this mistake.

[Pete for President]

For the love of...

WILL ANYONE EVER REMEMBER THAT YU YEVON WAS NOT THE GOD OF THE YEVON FAITH?

Wakka and Lulu, devout followers of the religion, HAD NO IDEA WHO THE GUY WAS.

I get it's a bit confusing that Yu Yevon has nothing to do with the actual Church of Yevon but come on people. Far too many people make this mistake.

Agreed. The guy's recap of FFX's story is not 100% accurate.

[Mirage]

Yeah, no. Some games clearly are. The series as a whole? Hardly.

Even if they were, I wouldn't exactly mind.

[Cloudane]

Obviously there's FFX (and half of FFX-2 which treats New Yevon as "same as the old Yevon", though they do eventually see a bit of sense from both sides) but aside from that I don't see it much. Well maybe XIII a bit with the "gods" being those evil Falcie guys.
Anyway if I was religious I'd possibly see X-2 as positive in an odd little way. It reinforces the "if you cast off religion you'll become a brazen hussy" stereotype :p
(I'm half kidding, but I did prefer religious Yuna)

FFVII's Aeris could be seen as religious. Even if the "god" was the planet's gaia, and not a bearded chap in the sky. And she was treated fairly well apart from the whole "dying" thing.

[Mirage]

13 did it a bit, but the falcie aren't real gods. They are given power by the real goddess but that was far away and she kind of lost her influence over the world. Or something. The game explains this pretty poorly.

In 13-2, the goddess gives you the power to change history to recreate the true history of the world, but then we are kind of sabotaged by some guy who hates her.

In fact, it might seem like the goddess in FF13 isn't actually both all knowing and all powerful. Maybe she is just one of the things, and just has a lot of the other but not infinitely much.

[Forsaken Lover]

As far as I know, the goddess who screwed everything up is a third generation god. There is a god above her who is the son of another goddess. In short, the real "God" of the series made a couple lesser gods who made the fal'Cie we see in the gme.

None of this is explained anywhere at all in the main story of XIII. There is only one God, The Maker, and it does jack in the story.

[Cloudane]

My bad about XIII, forgot about the poorly explained Maker.

And I really ought to play the rest of XIII-2 one of these days. It did my head in and I kind of stopped playing...

[G13]

Interesting theory but I think he's missing a bigger picture. FF has roots to all sorts of religions and myths. Arabic, Norse, Eastern and Western cultures, they're pretty much all in there. I don't think Square would produce games simply to push some sort of anti-organized religion agenda. The specific games mentioned happened to have a central theme of religion being used for ill intent, which really shouldn't be more shocking than, say, a game based on the wacky misadventures of a terrorist group. Is that what's next? Square is pro-terrorism because VII says so? They're just stories, nothing more.

[Quindiana Jones]

I think their main agenda is making fun and interesting games. Well, was. ;)

[Night Fury]

I think there are a lot of religious undertones in FFX, especially - but also a lot of Philosophical stances, I did mention in my Rikku spotight some Kantian ethical issues, but I don't think FF is anti-religion.

[Sephiroth]

FFX is pretty critical of organised religion but I don't think the other games are particularly anti-religious. Sephiroth and Kefka could both be interpreted as people who try to usurp the gods (well, goddesses in FFVI's case). Kefka definitely. I don't really remember there being much presence of deities in FFVII's world although it has been years since I played the game. Haven't played Tactics so I can't comment on that.

While Final Fantasy VII-1 does not mention a god per sé the Lifestream itself with its cycle of rebirth, the planet's essence which gives live to everything and where everything ends is spoken very godly of. And still it is told to be a "living being" while Dirge of Cerberus adds the explanation of Omega and Chaos being the lifestreams "messengers", who gather the rest of the life when te time has come and the lifestream has to go to another place in the universe to begin new life with Omega flying it to a new planet which life is given to. And of course Genesis also mentions the "Goddess" which is Minerva.

Final Fantasy is not "anti-god" or "anti-religion", not only that is is often based on religious themes and while Barthandelus is an exception I don't see a reason why a villains plan to surpass something greater than him is "anti-". It a pretty normal aspect in every story for a villain that he wants to become way better than all.

[Loony BoB]

My bad about XIII, forgot about the poorly explained Maker.
I believe it was poorly explained intentionally, because it makes the religion more realistic as most if not all religions in real life don't give you all the answers, and most answers are decided by people who run organised denominations rather than by the original details of the religion.

But yes, the XIII religion is complicated. The general gist of it is that most people believe the Maker has abandoned Gran Pulse, leaving it to it's own devices. I don't think Etro (the Goddess) is a third level God, though, I believe she was made by Maker. Barthy was designed to be like Satan - a fallen angel (fal'Cie). There's also that Lindzei guy or something like that, but I'm forgetting details now. :D

I also remember there being some mention of religion in FFVIII. I think it was in or near Zell's mum's house.

[Sephiroth]

I also remember there being some mention of religion in FFVIII. I think it was in or near Zell's mum's house.

Don't forget Hyne who was mentioned like the father of all witches. In a way that is also pretty godly.

Normally the gods in Final Fantasy are all natural forces which sometimes have also a personificated form. Technically Earth, Wind, Fire and Water and Void are also godly entities since existence began with them - or with the first four mentioned in Final Fantasy V. Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, Void, Chaos (true Chaos, so disorder), Moore, lifestream/Minerva, Light, Darkness, Goddess, Doom (Gaze), Poltrgeist, in a way Noah and also Hyne, in a way Necron or Iifa, the god of the Yevon religion, the Fayth in general and the collective of pyrefies which is exactly the same as the lifestream, Occuria, Lindzei, Bhunivelze, Goddess Etro and Fal'Cie - that seems all to be pretty divine. X-Death and Enuo were also pretty godly from the beginning because they were the representation of the "void side" and either fusions of many souls or immortal from the beginning or very hard to kill and only lost their immortality, Enuo did, when they traded it against the power of the void itself. JENOVA and Cetra also are some similiar entities which either cannot be entirely killed or have the power to decide when they want to become a part of the lifestream and some of them can also partly control it - technically everyone who uses Materia but I mean way more.

[Fynn]

Yeah, that episode kinda rubbed me the wrong way :roll2 And I guess at least some of you know why.

I really disagree with him on the whole Kefka theme. It's like the others said in this thread - he thinks he is God. And, considering his nihilistic attitude, I think the whole Divine Comedy (NOT Inferno, that one just cover Hell, another sad mistake on MatPat's part :mad:) gig was his way of mocking religion and putting himself in the place of God. Oh well, just my 3 cents here :)

[NeoCracker]

If anything FF X is more of an anti-church then anti-god. Mind you, BoF II I think has a way better anti-church theme going on, but I digress. :p

[Fynn]

If anything FF X is more of an anti-church then anti-god. Mind you, BoF II I think has a way better anti-church theme going on, but I digress. :p

I agree. X did this really heavy-handedly. It was really awkward for me to go through this game being constantly reminded "THE CHURCH IS EVIL AND IT HURTS SO MUCH! AAAH!", there are plenty of games that handled this anti-church thing better. Hell, I'm Catholic and I can still appreciate these games, but X just kind of failed in that respect, IMHO.

God, stop reminding me how I don't like FFX! It makes me derail every thread ever :(

[Red Mage Coffman]

I thought the video was interesting, but, as he says, it just a theory at most.

[Forsaken Lover]

FFX did an interesting job with Yevon because it wasn't all bad. The leaders genuinely did want to help people. It's just that they were thoroughly misguided in how they thought Spira needed help.

One of X-2's redeeming features is showing a world without Yevon and how it almost went to Hell.

There are plenty of games that are far worse when it comes to being anti-organized religion. (looking at you Xenogears)

[Bolivar]

Yeah there's a difference between being anti-God, anti-religion, and anti-religious establishments. I think to get to the bottom of this you need to understand how Japan views religion. From what I've heard over the years, they don't see any one religion as exclusively true; they take the good from various world faiths, but are overall skeptical of organized religious hierarchies.

Overall, they're fantasy games, and the common thread of all fantasy is the existence of the supernatural. Sometimes it manifests in something other than your traditional, sentient supernatural being, but a lot of religions employ this model as well.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well some people believe any sort of "anti-Christian" or "anti-religion" sentiment started back during Toyotomi Hideyoshi's time. He feared that the Christian missionaries were just laying the groundwork for foreign takeover.

A much less complicated reason religion is targeted in fiction (and the one that's probably more accurate) is that it's simply a large, faceless group that controls a lot of people. It's the same reason you get the evil corporation stereotype a lot.

[Raistlin]

I'm the last person who would complain if FF actually had anti-religious undertones, but I just don't see it consistently. FFX definitely had some anti-superstition and anti-organized religion themes going on, but that's not a consistent theme of the series. Where religious belief is referenced at all in most of the other games, it generally seems like just another fantasy element (though FFT is a notable exception), with maybe some comments that could be interpreted as anti-organized religion (though not anti-religious belief or anti-theism). Barthandelus in FFXIII, for example, was religious, but there was nothing really critical of the religious belief itself in the game. Contrast that with the criticism the anti-machina superstition received in FFX.

So yeah, I just don't see it. Though the stories might be better if it were true. :p

[Forsaken Lover]

Also while the Occuria are gods in FFXII and they are morally ambiguous to say the least, the Kiltia religion is fairly benign. Anistasis is probably the most benevolent leader we see in the game and the Archadian massacre that took place on Mt. Bur-omisace is easily the most vile thing that takes place in the course of the game's story.

Vayne's a "grey character" my ass. He was evil you louts.

[Skyblade]

Ooh, while we're on the whole "anti-relegious establishment" thing, let's not forget the Church of Glabedos.


It'd be nice to have an organized relegion somewhere that wasn't out to destroy or enslave mankind.

[chionos]

To echo G13, there's a shit-ton of religious references throughout the Final Fantasy universe. For the most part they're neutral, and are used for their fantastical elements. There are no anti-Jesus, anti-Yahweh, anti-ALLAH references anywhere in the series, as others have said. There are anti-establishment themes, but nothing to point in the direction of any one particular religion or its corresponding deity/deities.

If anything, the myriad references inspire enterprising players to dig into the religions and legends from which SE draws the names of their summons/cities/ships/characters.

Dude's a kook.

[Fynn]

Ooh, while we're on the whole "anti-relegious establishment" thing, let's not forget the Church of Glabedos.


It'd be nice to have an organized relegion somewhere that wasn't out to destroy or enslave mankind.

There's the Nisan faith in Xenogears :)

[Forsaken Lover]

Also the religion in Star Ocean 3 is quite benevolent. Church of Apris or something like that.

[Cloudane]

As a matter of interest, would people define Yevon (in FFX, not New Yevon from X-2) as a religion or a cult?

On a quick Google search, BBC defines a cult as:
- Uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain members: there's plenty of psychological nonsense going on, though I can't say they seem to coerce much. Any pressure for Tidus to follow them comes from societal norms rather than Yevon itself and allowing him to stroll around the cloisters is based on being sworn to protect Yuna rather than being sworn into Yevon itself.
- Forms an elitist society: I'd say yes, since in X Yevon also acts as a government and only followers are welcome and afforded the protection and care that comes with it, while non-believers are essentially banished to the sea.
- Founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, charismatic and unaccountable: Taking Mika as leader - I'm not too sure how they're appointed, but he's supposed to be dead and decided the world needed him, so the definition of "self-appointed" is close enough. Dogmatic, sure, everyone is expected to believe that Sin will disappear when their own sins are atoned. Though most/all religions are dogmatic as well. Messianic - somewhat. Charismatic - not particularly. Unaccountable - definitely (until Yuna and co make him accountable anyway!)
- Believes the 'end justifies the means' in raising funds and recruitment - The end justifying the means is quite a common theme with Yevon in the game. An obvious example is the use of machina despite it being otherwise banned and considered unholy, justified because it's used to protect Yevon's interests. However they don't really need to recruit since it's so ingrained in society, as for raising funds I don't know. Tricky one - the end justifying the means is extremely familiar in this game, but it's difficult to pigeon-hole into the categories of recruitment and fund raising.
- Its wealth does not benefit its members or society - Not too sure. It's not too clear what's funded by them (is Luca?) but there is a sense of you being on your own, and it's the Al Bhed who have set up resting places and shops to support you on your journey. So perhaps it doesn't.

So..... they have a lot of cultish properties. I'd say by my reckoning they're about 50-60% cult but not a "complete blatant cult" or anything. So there's that to take into consideration as well: being anti-cult is a bit more understandable than anti-religion or anti-god, and to be fair it's the most cult-like sides of Yevon that are picked apart the most by the game.

[Loony BoB]

Worship of Yevon = Religion.
The organisation established around the worship of Yevon may or may not be a cult. I would say it is not a cult but a corrupt organisation.

[maybee]

I really disagree with him on the whole Kefka theme. It's like the others said in this thread - he thinks he is God. And, considering his nihilistic attitude, I think the whole Divine Comedy (NOT Inferno, that one just cover Hell, another sad mistake on MatPat's part :mad:) gig was his way of mocking religion and putting himself in the place of God. Oh well, just my 3 cents here :)


Yeah I thought this too. I thought that Kefka was mocking God, Jesus and Mary and the whole religion and he was saying that he believed that he was a better God. Notice how during the 3rd part of the final battle how he looks like Jesus and he's above Mary. IMO SE wasn't saying " Now player, go beat up God " ! They were saying " Kefka believes that he's so all-mighty and powerful, he believes that he's better than the actual God... and he's not. So kill him.

[Flaming Ice]

Hm....

Usually there's a whole "we don't need gods, we're better off on our own, we have the ability to choose" theme that goes on in jrpgs..=/