Squall: Great Protagonist, or snarky dip shit?

[Wolf Kanno]

Where do you stand on Squall, he's seems to be either hated or at least respected for for the way he was written. Is he a emo-loser with an attitude problem that makes him completely unlikable or do you like his contrast of dialogue and internal monologue help to make him one of the most intimate characters in the series?

[Shorty]

I really want to like Squall, but he mostly just ends up bugging the trout out of me.

I think that if we were to see more progression of his character spread evenly and consistently throughout the game instead of it happening in stunted growth spurts, I would probably like him more. I may not be properly remembering the storyline, but I feel like he's completely dehumanized until the party splits and he decides that he needs to go save Rinoa from Abel/Esthar. After that, it continues a little bit up into space and whatnot and then ...? Where? Where does it go? I feel like that small window was the only glimpse of human emotion and pretty much the only time you got to see some real character progression and by then, it was too late in the game and I didn't care. I feel like he's far too focused on "the mission" and "the duty of SeeD" and that's boring because not everyone can relate to that.

Additionally, as cheesy and out of place as the orphanage/GF business was, he had almost no reaction to it and that bothered me because that trout would have messed with my braaain.

I think that his character demonstrates the ability to be a strong leader but not a great protagonist. I found myself unable to relate with his character for most of the game because he is excruciatingly robotic and logical and I am more of a FEEEEELINGS person.

[maybee]

I really like Squall. To be honest you really get and understand his character or you don't. I suffer from his fears and most of what he worries about. What if you loose somebody that you care about ? What if I never see that person again ?
What's the point in getting too close and personal to somebody, when they could be gone the next day ?

I also care too much what others think of me, like Squall does. Squall and I we feel like we understand each other even though Squall is just a PlayStation graphic.

I also like and enjoy how Squall is a pessimistic realist, but throughout the game he learns to become more understanding towards other people and his friends and he learns that there is some positive things in his world and you don't have to live alone in order to survive.

If only I had his bravery to step out and trust others like he begins too.

However I would like him even more if they kept in the line during when Squall is holding Rinoa on the airship and he opens up to Rinoa that he was jealous and envious of Seifer. It would just add to his character more. Don't know why they removed that line.




Additionally, as cheesy and out of place as the orphanage/GF business was, he had almost no reaction to it and that bothered me because that trout would have messed with my braaain.


He did have a reaction but his memory of the orphanage days are much better than the likes of Zell and Selphie. He remembered his childhood and him wanting for Ellone to return before the big plot-twist, so he had a less of a impact. Also he was more of ashamed of his past-self and how he acted in the past than anything else.

Also Squall is more human before Rinoa goes into a coma; he just hides it until he realizes that he took Rinoa for granted.

[Cloudane]

He was awful to observe during the early game, but I was able to identify with the reasons he "revealed" to the unconscious Rinoa later, that it can be easier to let people believe you're a cold-hearted a.hole than to face your emotions and your reliance on others. It's hard to really explain unless you were once in that sort of mindset yourself.

I'm in two minds about how quickly he changed. It was a bit sudden, but sometimes these things are. I seem to recall he's talking to some jerk in Horizon and thinks to himself "hey he sounds a bit like me.... what a jerk" and when you observe him from then on he stops being one. In other words, he got to look in the mirror, saw what he was, and adjusted accordingly. Quite admirable.
The other big turnaround being when Rinoa is put into a coma. Then he goes a bit far the other way and is all NOTHING WILL STAND BETWEEN ME AND MY LOVE GET OUT OF MY WAY
I'd say he's never quite uh, perfect. But what human is? He's realistic. All in all I like him yeah.

[Forsaken Lover]

Cloud
Ashe
Cecil
Zidane
Tidus
Firion
Squall
Lightning

I noticed upon my last aborted playthrough of FFVIII that Squall isn't really that much of a jerk. You get a decent number of chances to choose his reply and to choose to not be a total dick.

However it is not his rudeness that makes him unlikable. It is the fact he's introverted to a ridiculous extent. Almost all of his "character moments" are him thinking to himself. His reactions to others tends to be superficial and meaningless or just outright dumb. The scene where he flips out in Galbadia - the scene which NO ONE EVER MENTIONS AGAIN - is one of the worst things in any FF ever.

I do give the writers some credit in that they did a mostly okay job of showing the dynamic between him and Seifer. The whole game is essentially them heading down opposite roads of character development. Seifer was always the vastly superior character but he wouldn't be as good without Squall there as his foil.

[*Laurelindo*]

I wouldn't exactly consider Squall "unfriendly", he just has some major problems opening up to other people and this is not the same thing as being unfriendly or rude - he doesn't exactly walk around and insult people, after all.
However, he does sometimes act genuinely unfriendly, like when he refuses to shake Zone's hand.
That was rather unnecessary.

[Pumpkin]

I actually really liked Squall. I like how you got to see his thoughts and what he was going through. To me, he was actually more personable than a lot of protagonists. He was kind of a rude jerk at first, but he warms up and opens up and you find out why he is the way he is and I really liked him. The more times I replay the game, the more I like him. He also has some good outlooks on life, like the good and evil are objective thing. It's just two sides of the same coin. I agreed with that. Things aren't always black and white. You see that in a lot of games, like Suikoden II for example, and it's nice to have a hero who's not all like EVILBADBAD at the enemy sometimes. Although I will admit that the plot in VIII, is pretty straight cut: wants to save world vs. wants to destroy world. I also like how his relationships develop when through the game. I think the Seifer and Squall relationship was very well done and a good example of the good vs evil thing. Seifer doesn't think he's the bad guy. Seifer wants to be a knight, a hero, he wants to make a difference and to him, Squall is the bad guy. Squall can acknowledge this. They are working towards opposite goal, but they still have things in common and things they can relate to each other with.

[black orb]

>>> The guy kicked ass and had a gunblade, winning combination!!. Who cares about his shitty personality? not me atleast..:luca:

[maybee]

The scene where he flips out in Galbadia - the scene which NO ONE EVER MENTIONS AGAIN - is one of the worst things in any FF ever.


They most likely would of thought that it was best to leave him alone. People grieve in different ways, and they most likely assumed since they believed that a ally at that stage died that it was Squall's way of grieving and since he's shown to be a personal person already that it would of been best to give him some space.

Plus a few seconds after that everybody is slammed with the mission to kill Edea and Irvine's random squeeze into the group. It would of been hard to say " Hey Squall are you okay " ? When they already have so much put on their shoulders at once already and the way Squall acts when he's emotional wouldn't of helped him much.



However, he does sometimes act genuinely unfriendly, like when he refuses to shake Zone's hand.
That was rather unnecessary.

Meh. He avoids to shake and greet Zell so he deserves it. Plus he nods his head.

[*Laurelindo*]

However, he does sometimes act genuinely unfriendly, like when he refuses to shake Zone's hand.
That was rather unnecessary.

Meh. He avoids to shake and greet Zell so he deserves it. Plus he nods his head.
When is he refusing to shake Zell's hand?
I don't remember anything like that.

[Forsaken Lover]

During the Garden Festival or whatever it was when Squall and Rinoa have their dance, Squall is being a total one of us and hanging out on a wall drinking. Zell runs up to him and sticks out his hand as congratulations on them both passing the SeeD exam. Squall promptly just takes a sip of his drink and Zell gives up.

People not shaking Zell's hand is a bit of a running gag. I think either Zone or Watts did it too? And maybe one or two other people.

[Cloudane]

I remember at least one instance of that.

Isn't Zell's handshake animation "wipes the (probably snot) off his hand onto his clothes then extends his arm"? I think that probably puts them off :p

[maybee]

Isn't Zell's handshake animation "wipes the (probably snot) off his hand onto his clothes then extends his arm"? I think that probably puts them off :p

Ewwwww.

But if it's snot then yeah, no wonder. But I think it's because Squall is just a anti-social twit at the beginning of the game and Zone is bit dodgy being really into pornographic magazines and he most likely had lust for Rinoa and Selphie. But he shook Squall's hand because he was the leader only. Maybe.

[Skyblade]

Why are the two options mutually exclusive?

Squall has his annoyances, yes, but I found him to be a fairly well written and understandable character, with solid motivations and development arc.

[shellbuff21]

Squall's my favorite male protagonist in FF series. But I will like him more if SE will give him a chance to develop his character in a positive way and in a new story lol. I guess his personality is an effect of what they call "childhood trauma?" I'm no expert in psychological cases lol but I think it's one of the valid reasons. Let's admit it when we were kids (ok, not all of us) we are so emotionally vulnerable to almost everything that we are afraid to lose something or someone like our lives depended on it. Be it a toy, a candy or a pet. I guess that's what pushes Squall to create his "own world" when he learned that her Sis Ellone, who had been his source of emotional support and comfort had been taken away . He doesn't want to show anyone any signs of weaknesses and that's why he is misinterpreted as an introverted jerk and eventually had difficulties interacting with other people as he grew up.

But ofcourse like what his friends are trying to tell him, he'll never be understood by other people if he refuses to speak what's on his mind. He belongs to some of the "what's his problem?" and when he speak "ah, that is why" case.

[Mirage]

I think he was a pretty believable character. Being a bit of an introvert myself, I can easily see where he's coming from.

[Roogle]

I think he was a believable protagonist. The game does not explain why he is like that until much later in the game, giving people that did not finish the entire game a bad impression of him. His attitude makes a lot of sense given his upbringing.

[SophieVIII]

I have only ever played two Final Fantasies so I maybe shouldn't be commenting but, the relationship between Squall and Rinoa was, I think, extremely pure. OK, Squall was awkward, but so am I. He wasn't your typical hero character, but who in the real world is?

He was quiet, he was probably a stereotypical emo-type but.. in my opinion, I have never come across a truer love story than this one.. and I'm quite soppy!

[TreasonWall]

I really like Squall, he's the character I feel the closest to in FF8 by a long shot. That said, his whole "baaaah hah hah I don't wanna be alone cause I'm scared" shtick during his flashbacks as a child was absolutely grating and I didn't care for it in the slightest. And yes, both him and Lulu from FF10 aren't nearly as mean-spirited as people tend to say they are.

[Shadowdust]

I didn't have a problem with Squall as a protagonist. He was far from a perfect lead character but I always kept in mind, the kid is 17. He's far from a mature adult. He's in a military academy that could be looked at as some twisted version of high school. In high school, I wasn't vocal either. Most everything I experienced were thoughts in my head. So this was believable to me when watching Squall do his thing.

And as other have mentioned, as the game progresses he starts to soften a little and come out of his shell. Considering what Squall has to do and at the age he's doing it, I'd say he's doing a decent job. Being forced into a leadership position when you're introverted like that is not the easiest thing to deal with.

So all in all, I still find Squall to be a great protagonist all of these years later.

[Chris]

I think Squall is a great leader of the party, but just not a great protagonist. I don't he progresses enough for anyone to really gain any kind of sympathy for him in any way. I remember playing the game for the first time, and towards the end, I felt as indifferent to Squall as a character as I did in the beginning of my playthrough, and that is not what I'd like to experience when I play the game.

I think Zidane is the best protagonist of the entire series. He may not be the best leader, but he is certainly the most likeable and the easiest to gain attachments to.

[Shiny]

Snarky dip trout. As soon as he said talk to a wall I wanted to take control of Quistis and bash his head in to a wall several times. Talk to that you wannabe goth/emo eye liner wearing freak. The whole anti-hero thing is annoying when they make the character such an unlikeable prick.

[Greatermaximus]

It depends on your bias. I look at atmosphere first, editing second, then content/plot third. That's one argument in itself trying to figure out a personality for a character.

I'm not surprised at the responses here because they don't feel planned. Even if they are it means you want to talk something different about it.

[Aulayna]

It depends on your bias. I look at atmosphere first, editing second, then content/plot third. That's one argument in itself trying to figure out a personality for a character.

I'm not surprised at the responses here because they don't feel planned. Even if they are it means you want to talk something different about it.

Okay, so now that you've told us how you look at things - what do YOU think of Squall as a character? By this I don't mean badly using Foucauldian constructivism to tell everyone else how they came to their own opinions, I mean - what do YOU think of Squall as a character?

[Greatermaximus]

Unique like the others. Unless you expect me to believe he's more important.

[Loony BoB]

Unique isn't a description of an opinion, really. Did you like him? Did you not? What did you think of his notable personality traits? What of his story, his development, his style?

I could say Seymour and Red XIII are both unique characters, but that doesn't tell you what I think about them, that just tells you that they are not the same as other characters. I detest Seymour as a character and I love Red XIII. :p

As for me, I liked and disliked Squall for various reasons. I disliked his mopey emo attitude at first, particularly his anti-social behaviour... but I liked him in the long run and even grew to like those parts of him after getting a better understanding of why he was that way. Him not opening up at the start to anyone also meant that when he did open up to people, it was a more notable development.

[Greatermaximus]

Where do you stand on Squall, he's seems to be either hated or at least respected for for the way he was written. Is he a emo-loser with an attitude problem that makes him completely unlikable or do you like his contrast of dialogue and internal monologue help to make him one of the most intimate characters in the series?

I'll describe my interpretation of the original questions.

>>> First sentence.

Drawing conclusions though it might fit what people say about him. That doesn't mean we're fully qualified to make a judgment about something we don't know fully. We can only base it on what the author reveals to us and what's expected to be believed.

>>> Second Sentence.

You're only giving a diverse forum two choices. This might still be drawing conclusions. A better way to ask imo is to ask at what point is Squall a more intimate character.

There might be something in him that could say 'When I want to be' if the situation called for it. I'm even trying to stay in an authors perspective too. As a character I wouldn't know if he'd say that but the game gave you choices.

My conclusion is that fiction is trying to imitate reality. Characters and situations are based on mortality. It means it could develop biases, idioms, emotions that are rational/irrational? Depends on the real persons interpretation.

That's a conclusion I've drawn. And I'm not the one who asked. :)

Edit-the kicker is if you believe your interpretation is better than mine/going to be, then why bother asking?

Wouldn't it be fair to say any character/situation can be all it can be when it wants to be. Not when it has to be?

I knew philosophy would ruin this.

[Loony BoB]

How about my questions? :p So far you still haven't shown us any detail as to what you think of Squall as a character.

[Greatermaximus]

You're asking a questiong without a definite answer. It's technically fictional and open to interpretation. I don't even know enough about Terra to form a complete opinion. My bias puts her besting her group in a fight.

The last technical answer is all based on game mechanics. To have my own perhaps unique and dull that he wasn't half esper or special in some sense. But why should that matter when a competent character can contribute. Regardless of their background/scene appearance.

Because we can't draw a definite conclusion someone can keep objecting/sustaining.

His personality is dull but he's good with gunblade. Maybe a little of both good and bad. If that's the case why debate it?

[Loony BoB]

My questions were...


Did you like him (Squall)? Did you not? What did you think of his notable personality traits? What of his story, his development, his style?

I don't think I mentioned Terra. =x

But yeah, I wasn't debating, I just find it interesting to know what other people think. It's more discussion than debate. :)

[Aulayna]

His personality is dull but he's good with gunblade. Maybe a little of both good and bad. If that's the case why debate it?

I may rock your world here but the whole purpose of a discussion forum is to discuss things. The thing that's being discussed here is what your personal opinion of Squall as a character is - not whether or not your individual interpretation is right, wrong, or holds more water than the next persons interpretation. :)

[supernaps]

In the beginning, I thought he was a goddamn asshat, but once I knew his background he became a lovable asshat. After a period of hurting and heartache, he defined himself only regarding Garden's matters, until he let himself open up again (yes, it took a crapload of time) which was quite a payoff.
I liked his inner monologues by the way, I thought most of them were hilarious which wasn't what was intended, that made them that much funnier for me.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

Well i never got ff8's battle system,

but by God the story was rather epic. Squall was actually a pretty awesome protagonist, also i liked Rinoa a lot. And don't even get me started on Quistis.

[Mahad]

Attitude problems? Yes. But ever since I saw him just cutoff Ultimecia (literally) mid sentence at the end of his last encounter with her at the conclusion of Dissidia, I can never hate or dislike this kid. I was just so tired of hearing her talk.

I've never played FF8, I can't speak for his character/actions/attitude in that game.

[noxious.sunshine]

I loved Squall... When I was 14. XD

No for real though, I still dig him, but now that I'm older, I do see him more as the whiny annoying sap most people do.

[comma]

I hated Squall when the game first came out. I thought he was a whiny baby. He seemed to take things too seriously and cry a lot. A big part of the reason I liked Final Fantasy IX so much was that Zidane was much more fun than Squall.

Now that I'm a more sensitive person, I think it'll be interesting to see what I think of Squall the next time I play through Final Fantasy VIII. I'm going to play it when the upgrade comes out.

[Jiro]

I like Squall. His personality usually prompts the (imo) intended reaction throughout: at the start people think he's a whiny douche and/or that "cool" loner jackass, but then his past is explained a little more and you grow to understand why. He's not half bad, although his development could've been done a little better. Even I can't look past the shitty "omg you're unconscious so I love you and am way nicer underneath" thing. Rinoa only brought out the worst in Squall, I think.

[Spooniest]

God. It's been a long time since I played Ff8. Well, here we go.

First of all. I feel like every one of the answers put forth so far gives the writers too much credit. You're all analyzing Squall as though he were a person, and not a character in a story. I think that's a mistake, and here's why.

I find Squall to be an egregiously badly written character. In point of fact, I find FF8 to be a stunningly badly written story.

I was a silent, antisocial 17 year old myself, and Squall comes across as a clumsy caricature of the reality I lived. His character develops in only the most ham-handed ways, quite literally changing at the drop of a hat. He starts as a Spock, cool and logical, unconcerned with feelings, including any sense of Nationalism. He merely executes his orders as efficiently as he can. There's actually nothing wrong with that; he's a soldier in a mercenary army, for crying out loud! I thought the other characters were pussies and airheads by comparison.

Then, of course, Galbadia Garden. I think this scene is a bunch of horse apples. Squall's sudden panic attack at the news of Seifer's execution comes out of NOWHERE, and I don't buy it for a second. He didn't like Seifer, and he's never had a problem with worrying about mortality before. He's been trained to kill from a very young age. This whole business of "Nobody's going to talk about me in the past tense!!" just doesn't play for me. It's forced and idiotic, and forgotten immediately.

A battle commander sometimes has to say things like:


"Mr. Data!! You are an officer on board this ship and I will require you to perform your duty!!"

~ Capt. Picard, Star Trek Generations

The idea that a cold, emotionally distant man is unfit for command is something that the game is trying to cram down my throat, and I think it's balderdash.

Henry James said, "Life is hot, but art is cool."

The puppeteer cannot be out on the front row sobbing at the performance. He has to remain calm and collected, and make sure the strings don't get tangled.

I could go on for a long time about why the story in FF8 hits a sour note for me, but I'm satisfied that I've made my point, and by the way, I love the game itself, just not the story so much. I even have a habit of screaming "RENZOKUKEN!!" at the top of my lungs when I'm performing Squall's Limit Break. :)

[Jiro]

Squall is the unfeeling, stoic badass because he is trying to be in order to cover up the fact he is so goddamn insecure courtesy of abandonment issues. He has this warped idea of what he should be, and struggles to maintain it. His rivalry with Seifer, while causing him grief, actually gives him something constant; he knows where he stands with Seifer.

The only real dramatic and unbelievable change of character happens when Rinoa is unconscious; there is no reason for him to become so in love with her. Him going nutters and trying to save her is fair enough because she is a friend and comrade and even a jerk would feel something, but then he's all emotional and shit and that just doesn't fit the self absorbed, fearful Squall that we know.

If you analyse any character enough you will find horrendous flaws. Any character, in any great work of art. Looking at them as people in a world is the point, as that's what they're meant to be.

[Spooniest]

His rivalry with Seifer, while causing him grief, actually gives him something constant; he knows where he stands with Seifer.


This would be a lot easier to accept if it were directly referenced at some point in the game. I don't believe it is. I might be wrong.



The only real dramatic and unbelievable change of character happens when Rinoa is unconscious; there is no reason for him to become so in love with her.

I agree, but I wonder if there's something we're not being told? Immediately prior to Rinoa's possession, Squall does something extremely unusual for him as a character, and actually leans on the fourth wall.


Everyone's trying to get us together. Even I can see it.

Is there something in this expression in the original Japanese that doesn't come through in English, perhaps?

Food for thought.

I still think it's rather a Barbie-Doll romance story, but as in the "Is This Game Romantic?" thread, I suppose we should all remember that the main love story is not the only type nor example of love being examined by the narrative.

[Synoptikal]

I wouldn't say he's necessarily either or. When I was a teenager, I felt more of a connection to Squall than I do now. I actually feel more connected to Zidane nowadays. But while some aspects of his story and personality feel tacked on by the writers, I do feel that there's a deep sense of longing hidden behind his character, emphasised by his past and the fact he just wanted Ellone back. The fact that she left and never came back obviously scarred him to the point where he felt that he HAD to take care of himself and never let anyone help. And I think that Rinoa and the others are trying to break that and get him to open up. Which they eventually do.

His evolution, while slightly rough, is fun to watch. Especially when he, unknowingly, calls his own father a moron on Disc 1. :P

[Spooniest]

Especially when he, unknowingly, calls his own father a moron on Disc 1. :P

I've laughed at that quite a bit, as I've often remarked to my father, quite knowingly, I assure you, what a moron he is. :D

He's perfectly comfortable retorting with, "If I'm a moron, that makes you Son of Moron!!"

:D Ah, good times.

[Jiro]

This would be a lot easier to accept if it were directly referenced at some point in the game. I don't believe it is. I might be wrong.


The term rival isn't used, but I mean, it's implied by the fact that they both wield gunblades and stand at odds through most of the game. Also, this, from the flashback scene (or whatever it is)



Quistis
"I...remember. Yes, I remember now."
"Things didn't work out at my new home."
"So I came to Garden at the age of 10."
"That was when I first noticed Seifer and Squall."
"Seifer and Squall were always fighting."

Squall
"Yeah...Quistis always used to break us up."

Quistis
"Yes! That's right!"
"Seifer was a kid who always needed to be the center of attention."
"But Squall always used to ignore him..."
"But eventually they would end up fighting."
"Squall could have easily walked away from it, but always took up the challenge."



I agree, but I wonder if there's something we're not being told? Immediately prior to Rinoa's possession, Squall does something extremely unusual for him as a character, and actually leans on the fourth wall.


Everyone's trying to get us together. Even I can see it.

Is there something in this expression in the original Japanese that doesn't come through in English, perhaps?

Food for thought.

This is after the party, where the others play music especially for those two, and then shuffle them off to a secluded spot with a Playboy... I think that's pretty obvious.

[Synoptikal]

That's not a fourth wall thing at all, no. Everyone IS trying to get them together. Even Rinoa. XD

[noxious.sunshine]

Squall completely turned into a pile of jello after Rinoa got knocked out.

This is all making me wonder like the actual span of time during this game.

Like. You -just- met the chick and you couldn't stand her and now you're like "Rinoa! Come back to me! I need to hear your voice! I'll carry you to Esthar!"

Oh please.

I think I quite like Asshole Squall more than this one.

Also, -I- have no horrendous character flaws. Pick me apart. I'm quite perfect. :love:

[Skyblade]

Also, -I- have no horrendous character flaws. Pick me apart. I'm quite perfect. :love:

8-Bit Theater, Episode 614 (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/10/20/episode-614-escalations/)

You're Red Mage.

[noxious.sunshine]

XDDDD

[zx12y]

Squall had been repressed his whole life and even had repressed memories. Just look at how Irvine had to use a dirty magazine to entice Squall into loving and how shy he is after rescuing Rinoa aboard the Ragnarok. His life was too extraordinary to expect perfection. Lots of his angst is internalized anyways.

[Hollycat]

Sadly, I think Squall showed more emotions in his cameo in KH than he did through all of FF8.

[Jiro]

Just look at how Irvine had to use a dirty magazine to entice Squall into loving

I think this had the opposite effect. He's the serious soldier and thinking about hanky panky made him nervous and annoyed :p

[zx12y]

Just look at how Irvine had to use a dirty magazine to entice Squall into loving

I think this had the opposite effect. He's the serious soldier and thinking about hanky panky made him nervous and annoyed :p

One way or another, I think it's pretty symbolic for how Squall's companions view him emotionally.

[Elskidor]

It's been ages, and I probably should play the game again for an up to date judgement, but I use to like Squall. I liked how you got a good grasp of what he was thinking in that confusing head of his. Moody and emo-ish, but it never bothered me much. Guess I'll replay FFVIII one of these days.

[Silent Warrior]

Squall? Drama queen reject - and I actually mean that in a good way. I have... issues with full-blown drama queens, real or fictional, and he just isn't one. (Edge Maverick, I'm looking at YOU!) Back when the game was new, I could sometimes identify with the little bugger, but now I think the whole game is just... kinda silly, really. And the music is only good in the beginning and the end. :P
So, yeah. Could be better, could be a hell of a lot worse. But my days with FF8 are over and done with. Not touchin' that again.