Starcraft II: Heart of the Swarm

[Skyblade]

Yes, I bought it. And so far, I'm enjoying it. I've been playing the campaign, and I'm quite enjoying the refinements to the gameplay since I last played Starcraft II.

But, really, I made this thread because I have to share one thing. Kerrigan's adjutant is Aigis from the Persona series, and that is really, really distracting. Ok, so she's a zerg information depository and tactician named Izsha. But, seriously, she's Aigis. Same voice actor, nearly identical tone, inhuman perceptions and viewpoints... It's awesome.

[kotora]

Couldn't care less about the singleplayer, but might be able to get it for cheap so I can see what they did with the multiplayer. My expectations are at pretty much zero, though. I didn't really like any of the units they presented when they announced them, but I haven't been following the scene for a couple months so for all I know things might've balanced out a bit.

[Slothy]

I didn't really like any of the units they presented when they announced them, but I haven't been following the scene for a couple months so for all I know things might've balanced out a bit.

Most of the units in the original announcement either no longer exist, or no longer exist in their original form. It's quite night and day actually between what was announced and what is actually in there now.

It's also just plain more fun than the multiplayer in Wings of Liberty thanks to the new units.

[Rostum]

I will get this eventually, but I haven't played seriously for around a year. :)

[kotora]

I didn't really like any of the units they presented when they announced them, but I haven't been following the scene for a couple months so for all I know things might've balanced out a bit.

Most of the units in the original announcement either no longer exist, or no longer exist in their original form. It's quite night and day actually between what was announced and what is actually in there now.

It's also just plain more fun than the multiplayer in Wings of Liberty thanks to the new units.

That's why my expectations are super low. WoL would've been much more interesting if it weren't for the stupid patchzergs that came to turn every game into the same macrofest since last year. If Blizzard did a good job on balancing the game, they wouldn't need to rely on new gimmicks to keep the game fresh.

[Slothy]

Blizzard makes one of the most balanced competitive multiplayer games out there.
"Blizzard needs to learn how to balance more."
:exdee:

And the new units aren't gimmicks. So far they've all opened up a host of viable new strategies. Will that get whittled down in time as the meta game works itself out? Sure, but I don't think we'll see these new units disappearing from use. Which is what you'd expect to happen if they were just "gimmicks" and didn't actually change the game in new and interesting ways.

[Goldenboko]

Have you looked at the win percentages kotora? The game is incredibly balanced.

[kotora]

Have you looked at the win percentages kotora? The game is incredibly balanced.

Have you seen the matches since the big zerg update in 2012? Have you seen the matches before? Have you seen how all Z matchups went from exciting matches with lots of micro we've gone to macrofests with all Zerg players going for the one optimal strategy they have, turtling on 4base until they get a 200/200 army with BL/infestor? Have you seen at how no-name mediocre foreign zerg players started beating Korean pros they never had a chance against before the patch?
It's exactly what turned me away from watching the game anymore last year. This is not how you balance a game. When you look at the winrates pre-patch, ZvT was nearly 50-50% anyway. Even worse, it has made the game just much more boring.
For a more detailed analysis: Lings of Liberty: The Rise of the Patchzergs (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385876)

[Aulayna]

If Blizzard did a good job on balancing the game, they wouldn't need to rely on new gimmicks to keep the game fresh.

Yeah man I mean it's not like they added a host of new units in Brood War which was one of the longest running esports scenes ever...

Gimmicks.

[Slothy]

Forgive me Kotora for I almost immediately tune out when hearing someone throw around terms like patchzerg. It immediately reeks of knee jerk whining to me, and is rarely followed by an actual worthwhile argument.

But let's address this directly. In the late game, BL/Infestor is good. Really good. Almost always has been really because it just holds up well in direct engagements. Was it actually made better a year ago? Not really. Certainly not directly. It just became slightly easier to get there because improving queens and OL speed meant people weren't immediately dying to all sorts of all ins, from Terrans in particular. So for a while there it was a lot easier to get to Hive tech to get the composition so people started to use it a lot. Does that mean that it completely broke play against Zerg? No. It means it took people a little while to figure out how to deal with it. The same sort of freaking out happened when Stephano started going three hatches before gas and maxing on Roaches in about 11 minutes against Protoss. But you don't see that popping up very much lately either.

Fact is, people started figuring out how to peel apart BL/Infestor a while ago. And as someone who's been watching pro players in the Beta for the better part of the last six months, I can safely say it pops up even less now.


It's exactly what turned me away from watching the game anymore last year. This is not how you balance a game.

I want to address this directly as well because you are confusing game balance with game variety. As I've already said, BL/Infestor doesn't pop up as much anymore. But game balance has nothing to do with how many viable strategies there are. It might be a less interesting game, but it doesn't mean it's unbalanced. And frankly, I've been following professional SC games long enough to know that 90% of the time that people say a specific strategy or unit comp is the one ideal strategy and makes all others obsolete, they're usually proven wrong a month or more down the road. And even if they are right, there suggestions for how to fix it are worse than the problem itself.

As for the article you posted, I have a hard time taking any article which suggests Blizzard is deliberately sabotaging their game so more white people can win over Koreans seriously. In fact, it spends so much time discussing this sort of thing that I'm almost forced to conclude that the author is either joking or should avoid going outside on a rainy day without first removing the tinfoil hat.

Hell, it's even less believable when you consider the article talks about the Infestor getting a buff. But if you actually look at the patch history, it got one buff since release. It got +30% damage against armoured units. At the same time it also happened to get its stun duration cut in half (and keep in mind that fungals don't stack). Since then, they were made slower, their fungal damage was reduced against all targets, neural parasite range was reduced by two, Infested Marine eggs health was reduced by 30%, Fungal Growth had its range reduced by 1, and Infested Terrans don't get armour and weapon upgrades anymore.

So does this article really want me to believe that the Infestor was made so strong by a fungal damage buff two years ago (a buff that's been largely reversed since then) that it suddenly broke the Zerg meta game and that none of the rather substantial nerfs to the unit at the time and since then would have an even larger impact? Or that these changes have shown anything other than an intent by Blizzard to balance out the Infestor/BL composition compared to other Zerg compositions? Give me a break.

[Elly]

i picked it up at the Midnight Release, Collectors Edition Box and Guide, just like i did with Wings of Liberty... sadly i haven't had the chance to install it yet as my PC died several months ago and i'm currently waiting for the parts to get in so i can build my new one... i don't feel it'd be right to try to install such a marvelous game onto this little laptop, i wanna play but i don't want it gimped...
as for voices i noticed the guy that did the voice of Egon in Wings was the same guy that did the voice of the little brother in Mission Hill... i'm expecting more voices i'll recognize as not in-house Blizzard Voice Actors with Heart of the Swarm and Dark of the Void...

[kotora]

Well Vivi I can't really argue about the current state of the game as I've been out for quite a while. There's only one thing that interests me: you're saying that if I went back to HotS, I wouldn't still be seeing nobodies playing zerg give good players a hard time in utterly boring games that feature little to nothing happening in the first 15 minutes?

[Skyblade]

Gah, all this meta game and e-sport talk. I didn't realize that professional Starcraft was actually that popular of a spectator sport.

I'm really not that good at multiplayer. It gets way too competitive, and way too focused. I lack the speed required for good micro, and I prefer fun strategies over really effective ones.

I'm kind of surprised that multiplayer took over the discussion. I thought the new campaign was HotS's main selling point over seven new units for multiplayer.

[Slothy]

I'm kind of surprised that multiplayer took over the discussion. I thought the new campaign was HotS's main selling point over seven new units for multiplayer.

Each is going to appeal to different people. I'm not sure the campaign is what draws in the most people anymore though. As for multiplayer taking over the discussion, sorry about that. I don't have my copy yet so I can't play the campaign even though I'm looking forward to it. But on the other hand, I was playing the Beta back in November and have watched plenty of games of HOTS, so it's just easier for me to talk about that.

[kotora]

Starcraft is for most players primarily a competitive game. The campaign just doesn't have any real challenges to offer to most players who are decent enough at the basics of the game. If you look at the online communities, nobody's really that interested in singleplayer.

[Skyblade]

I understand that most people find the multiplayer more interesting, I just didn't think the changes HotS brought to multiplayer were that big.

Campaign mode has some really solid additions to gameplay, some well thought out missions (so far), and an interesting new story insight into the Zerg and Kerrigan. And Aigis. ;)

Multiplayer has seven new units. Sure getting Lurkers back for the Zerg is great, but every other gameplay change was a per-expansion patch.

I'm not complaining, just surprised. I definitely wasn't getting this game to spend ten bucks on each new unit.

[Aulayna]

Brutal difficulty on single player in WoL is incredibly challenging and some of the Mastery achievements for Hard difficulty or higher in HotS single player are very challenging. The campaign itself is very well done and they've evidently learned from some of their mistakes in WoL, upgrades are actually meaningful and you get more bang for your buck from them and they brought back the Hero Unit system from Warcraft 3 which really makes you feel like you're a badass.

As for multiplayer, if the end of beta events and the current HotS launch events are anything to go by then people are playing far more aggressively rather than 4 base turtle tactics.

This is also ignoring the fastly growing Arcade scene and the massive overhauls they made to versus AI in HotS.

[Slothy]

Multiplayer has seven new units. Sure getting Lurkers back for the Zerg is great, but every other gameplay change was a per-expansion patch.

The thing to keep in mind is that while saying something like "they added seven units" doesn't sound like much of a change, those units and the old ones don't exist in a vacuum and can't be judged on their own abilities and stats alone. How they interact with other units, timings, and strategies also plays a big role in how they change the game, and the ripple effect caused by adding a few units can be huge. It'd be a bit like adding two or three new units to chess. There'd be such a huge impact on how the game is played that it's like someone just came over to the game you used to play and upended the table on you.

And even that's not the best analogy since some old units did change in HOTS from their WOL counterparts. Just looking at Terrans alone, Reapers base speed is now their former upgraded speed, they lost the building attack and bonus light damage from HOTS, don't require a techlab to build, and they heal automatically out of battle. Siege Tanks don't need to research siege mode anymore, they simply come with it standard. Medivacs also got emergency thrusters (might not be the actual name) so they can pop off the ability and get a major speed boost. Those are pretty big changes on their own, and just does all the more to shake up the game from what it was in HOTS. And Zerg and Protoss both got some changes to WOL units as well.

All added up, it amounts to some interesting times ahead as players adapt old strategies and create new ones to cope.

[edczxcvbnm]

I like RTS for the campaign mode. I am a slow player with these games and not greatly skilled. I understand all of the basics just fine but I don't care to play all that fast (the reverse of how I play like...every other genre). Those missions where they want to time you are the ones that I have the most trouble with by far.

I ended up beating the fire crawl level in WoL on hard because of the way the map is shaped. I got to the edge and waited until the fire swept through and killed everything else. The protoss didn't have any units or buildings that went to the right most edge/corner due to map perspective.

Man I suck at these games in multiplayer but I look forward to the challenges in single player. I barely managed to get all of the medals last time and I am sure it will be the same or worse for me this time (I hate the zerg).

[Slothy]

Man I suck at these games in multiplayer but I look forward to the challenges in single player. I barely managed to get all of the medals last time and I am sure it will be the same or worse for me this time (I hate the zerg).

On the plus side for the Zerg Campaign, I've heard you don't have to do larva injects. This pleases me because I hate larva injects. Zerg was probably my favourite race to play in Brood War, but keeping up with larva injects is the thing that's kept me from playing Zerg in WOL aside from in the occasional team game or monobattles. I find they're just too punishing if you're timing isn't bang on as mine tends not to be.

[Skyblade]

Man I suck at these games in multiplayer but I look forward to the challenges in single player. I barely managed to get all of the medals last time and I am sure it will be the same or worse for me this time (I hate the zerg).

On the plus side for the Zerg Campaign, I've heard you don't have to do larva injects. This pleases me because I hate larva injects. Zerg was probably my favourite race to play in Brood War, but keeping up with larva injects is the thing that's kept me from playing Zerg in WOL aside from in the occasional team game or monobattles. I find they're just too punishing if you're timing isn't bang on as mine tends not to be.

Yep. Hatcheries now naturally generate up to 9 Larva, and there is no injection ability. Yay.

Beat the campaign. Fun stuff.

That ending really didn't do much to set up a Protoss campaign. As much fun as this was, I don't want to play as Zerg again in Legacy of the Void. But the entire setup from both Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm has been to have Kerrigan and the swarm play a huge role in the final showdown with the Fallen One. Heck, even Zeratul in this one just goes "yep, you're set for the fight, I'm out of here and you won't see me again". I'm very curious to see what they're going to do.

The Master Archives are a hugely fun tool, and I wish they'd implement a similar feature for Wings of Liberty. Having every campaign open is one thing, but getting the ability to reset all the choices you made in terms of unit upgrades and costs at any time is huge, and makes it so much easier to play around with new abilities and setups. I've only replayed two missions so far, but they were even more fun than the original run.


And I still love that the adjutant is Aigis. It's a shame she's stuck in a non combat role, I'd have her in my army all the time just to hear her comments and voice continuously.

[kotora]

I'll be getting my first HotS experience as MLG is about to start. Looks like a good lineup of good korean players, so I can't wait to see some interesting matches!

[Freya]

This thread's bickering has me enthralled. continue.

[Slothy]

I think we're done bickering Freya.

And thanks for reminding me about MLG kotora. I almost forgot that started tonight.

[Freya]

Awwww :(

[Slothy]

Because I love ya Freya. ;)


Multiplayer has seven new units. Sure getting Lurkers back for the Zerg is great, but every other gameplay change was a per-expansion patch.

I meant to actually mention this earlier (even though I'm sure you're just noting the similarity of Lurkers and Swarm Hosts being units that attack while burrowed): Swarm Hosts aren't Lurkers. They are terrible harassment and defensive units. They're more like Siege Tanks than anything else really.

[Skyblade]

Because I love ya Freya. ;)


Multiplayer has seven new units. Sure getting Lurkers back for the Zerg is great, but every other gameplay change was a per-expansion patch.

I meant to actually mention this earlier (even though I'm sure you're just noting the similarity of Lurkers and Swarm Hosts being units that attack while burrowed): Swarm Hosts aren't Lurkers. They are terrible harassment and defensive units. They're more like Siege Tanks than anything else really.

Heh, I used Lurkers as Assault forces all the time. Large groups could wipe out bases in moments. Aim for detectors first, then just sit back and let them eliminate everything. Not the most efficient or safest way to attack a base, but, hey, I'm here to have fun.

I know Swarm Hosts aren't the same thing, and with their Locusts, they are a very odd unit. The auto attack range is actually really small, but if you control spawn them, you can then direct them around until their life expires, giving them a decent range. They are decent harassers, as you can root, spawn, and then unroot and draw back while the Locusts attack. I'm not really a fan of them though, and they're nowhere near as awesome as the old Lurkers were.

On the plus side, Lurkers are back. If you haven't done the Evolution Mission for Hydralisks yet, just know that you can get either Lurkers or Impalers as the reward. Impalers are like Lurkers that have a longer range, but only hit one target, for more damage and bonus damage to armored units. So, even more powerful assault forces, and good defenders against things like Siege tanks.

They're in the game code now, so it's only a matter of time before people start shoving them into Custom maps.


The evolution missions really show love to the coolest Zerg units. Hydralisks (already some of the most awesome Zerg units in their own right) get to become Lurkers again, and the Ultralisk gets immortality. Ah, I love it.

[Slothy]

They are decent harassers, as you can root, spawn, and then unroot and draw back while the Locusts attack.

When I said they're bad at defending and harassment, I really meant in multiplayer. The computer is usually pretty stupid so stuff like that works. But burrowing, spawning, unburrowing, and moving away are so slow that against a decent opponent you'll probably either lose the Swarm Hosts, or they'll counter attack around them while they're completely out of position.


On the plus side, Lurkers are back. If you haven't done the Evolution Mission for Hydralisks yet, just know that you can get either Lurkers or Impalers as the reward. Impalers are like Lurkers that have a longer range, but only hit one target, for more damage and bonus damage to armored units. So, even more powerful assault forces, and good defenders against things like Siege tanks.

They're in the game code now, so it's only a matter of time before people start shoving them into Custom maps.

I still don't have my copy yet. But I thought I'd mention that Lurkers were included in the editor in WOL. Actually, all of the Brood War units were I believe, as well as the new units that didn't make it into WOL multiplayer like Diamondbacks.

[Aulayna]

I meant to actually mention this earlier (even though I'm sure you're just noting the similarity of Lurkers and Swarm Hosts being units that attack while burrowed): Swarm Hosts aren't Lurkers. They are terrible harassment and defensive units. They're more like Siege Tanks than anything else really.

Take burrow (can't remember the actual name of it off the top of my head, but the evolution that lets them move to anywhere there's creep) and spread creep as much as possible and Swarm Hosts are amazing for the campaign on higher difficulties. Particularly the later missions where you may be forced to defend on multiple fronts - being able to burrow and get Hosts to the other side of the map almost instantly is not to be underestimated.

[kotora]

Swarm hosts don't get the ability to move while burrowed outside of the campaign. From what I've seen so far, zerg definitely got the short end of the stick with this expansion. Terran, which was already the best designed race in WoL, got some very useful additions to their arsenal, protoss got some very good harassment air units while zerg got some limited useable lategame units.
And as always, TvT remains the most interesting and diverse matchup. Seeing some really good games this MLG after the Ro16. I'm glad the tournament included so many good koreans.

[Slothy]

To be fair, Blizzard basically stated after the beta ended that there were balancing issues with Zerg right now and they will be making changes. It's no easy task to balance a game like SC2, so even with the lengthy beta, I'm not surprised there are some issues that still need to be dealt with.

As for other matchups, I'm more hesitant to say there are actual issues since the game is only a week old and it hasn't been put through its paces with high level competition. The metagame hasn't really started to shake itself out yet. We'll have to wait and see what shakes out over the next few months and with any changes to the Zerg matchups.

[Rostum]

Ah I missed the MLG finals, anyone know where I can watch a recording of it?

[Aulayna]

We can change regions now so I can play in the US and lose horribly to you Vivi!

[Slothy]

Haha, I heard about the region changing which is awesome. I'm dying for my copy to come already so I can play some games. I want to play HOTS so bad that I can't even play WOL right now because it isn't HOTS.

And Rostum, the vods should go up on the MLG site sometime soon if they're not there already. I missed the championship match too, so I'll take a look for them later and PM you the link if you haven't found it by then.

[Goldenboko]

Jumping banelings are boss.

[Slothy]

Just as a heads up for Rostum and anyone else, the MLG series from this weekend is up here: http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/23-2013-winter-championship#2424/2432/1

[Dignified Pauper]

Dark Templars still rock when combined with Observers. Seriously, those things that burrow and spawn locusts... (can't remember their name) - I wreck that build's shit.

[theundeadhero]

I play for the campaign. Always have. I haven't played a multi-player Starcraft match since the original and that was with friends on a N64 :p

[Slothy]

I play for the campaign. Always have. I haven't played a multi-player Starcraft match since the original and that was with friends on a N64 :p

Eww....

[Rostum]

Just as a heads up for Rostum and anyone else, the MLG series from this weekend is up here: http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/23-2013-winter-championship#2424/2432/1

Thanks! :D

By the way if anyone wants to add me my Battle Net email is rostum at live dot come dot au, on American servers. Happy to have a game or two at any skill level. :D

[Slothy]

My copy of HotS finally came this morning. Looks like no Mystic Quest update from me for today at least. :)

[kotora]

You playing on the EU server Vivi? I'm tempted to get the expansion. Even though I don't really like the new additions to zerg and protoss I'm loving the changes to terran after playing the starter edition for a bit.

[Slothy]

North American server actually since I'm Canadian. :)

I wasn't overly taken with the Zerg changes, but I love the Mothership core and Oracles, and Tempests are kind of interesting if you get to that stage of the game. I do think I like the Terran changes a bit more though. Widowmines are just cool, plus it was my main race in WOL so I'm just used to playing them.