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Raistlin
03-19-2013, 03:12 AM
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Welcome back to the Final Fantasy Sexism series, after a bit over a month off. When we last left off (http://home.eyesonff.com/content/2346-final-fantasy-sexism-part-iii-here-come-boobs.html), I went over the beginning of the PS1 era with Final Fantasy VII and VIII, which saw a return to the emphasis on gender roles and sexist stereotypes after the temporary improvement of Final Fantasy VI. This part will focus on the end of the PS1 era and the beginning of the PS2 games: Final Fantasys IX and X.

Remember the Bechdel Test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test) that I referenced in Part I (http://home.eyesonff.com/content/2256-final-fantasy-sexism-part-i-why-matters.html)? The purpose of it is to criticize the use and depth of female characters in film; too often women’s roles are minimized as they revolve around more central, male characters. That principle, if not the exact test itself, can also be applied to video games, and FFIX and X are classic examples of otherwise strong female leads being minimized to fit into the classic role of love interest for the true main character.



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Women always have the most important roles. (http://stephenfrug.blogspot.com/2010/11/miserably-sexist-comics-panel-of-day.html)


Final Fantasy IX was heralded as a return to FF’s roots, and was a temporary reprieve from the constant attempts to create the most sexy women in the least amount of clothing. However, even it suffered from shoving female characters into stereotypically feminine roles and emphasizes the female character’s sexuality. As I’ll explain, every single playable female character either is motivated by a past love, falls in love during the game, or wants to be in love.

The lead female of FFIX, Garnet (or Dagger), is a princess, the daughter of Queen Brahne, ruler of Alexandria. After her father’s death, Garnet notices some disturbing changes in Brahne as she became more cruel and power-hungry. Garnet resolves to escape Alexandria in order to seek counsel from her uncle, Cid, on how to stop Brahne, and along the way meets up with the rest of the game’s characters.



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Princess Garnet about to cut her hair.


Garnet is a determined and resourceful character, but she suffers from a number of sexist stereotypes, including her personality and conduct in the game. While understandably upset at the change in Brahne, Garnet frequently ignores the advice of her more logical (and male) companions as she sought to reach Brahne and reason with her. The result is a betrayal that was predictable to everyone but Garnet, who needs to be rescued by her wiser, and again male, companions. After Brahne’s death, Garnet temporarily loses the ability to Trance, speak, and occasionally even fight due to her emotional distress (reminiscent of what happened to Terra in FFVI) – which is only notable because, predictably, the writers chose a female character to suffer that fate. And throughout the game, she is forced to learn from Zidane, the main male character, how to live outside the palace, which of course means that she eventually falls in love with him.



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Apparently Garnet has soft… clothing.


Her role in the game is also firmly entrenched in sexist tropes. As described above, Garnet is a classic damsel-in-distress-turned-love-interest – an all-too-common theme throughout the PS1 era (see: Aerith in FFVII, Rinoa in FFVIII). She is also one of two white mages in the game – and both are female (though Garnet’s main class is a summoner, which still fits into the broader “weak magic-based” role).

A slight improvement from Garnet, Freya Crescent is a classic example of “two steps forward, one step back.” She has a lot of positives going for her: she is a determined and skilled fighter, who can put aside her emotions in order to get the job done. She is definitely a stronger female character than most others from the PS1 Final Fantasys.



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One of life’s greatest mysteries: how Freya puts that hat on.


That being said, “stronger” does not mean “progressive.” For one thing, Freya, like many FFIX characters, does not even resemble human. She seems to follow the Terra example of it’s ok for women to be strong – as long as they have some non-human parts to justify it. Additionally, Freya’s personal goal throughout the game is a quest for her long lost love, which is a constant burden on her mind. Her love interest isn’t as annoying as some other characters, possibly because he is not part of the main story and Freya is not given as much screen time.

And then of course there’s Eiko, the obligatory bratty girl (see: Relm, Yuffie, Selphie), who fits firmly into the weak healer role. She is only six-years-old, but already daydreaming about meeting boys and getting married, because of course that is the height of achievement for all young girls. Eiko is only worth mentioning because of how frequently this gender-based role has been exploited into the FF series – and it won’t be the last time!

I should also say some words about Beatrix as well, though she is only a playable character for part of the game. Beatrix is a general, leader of Alexandria’s all-female army. At the beginning of the game, Beatrix is firmly loyal to Queen Brahne and an enemy to the party, but eventually realizes that she should put Alexandria ahead of Brahne. She is confident and assertive, and is a highly respected fighter, who early on defeats the main party with ease. And unlike Freya, she’s human!



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Beatrix's armor is conveniently shaped to reveal some cleavage. Even her eye patch is fashionable.


If Beatrix did nothing in the game and rested only on her description, she would be among the most progressive FF characters in the series. But, unfortunately, contemporary Square writers had difficulty developing Beatrix during the game without resorting to gender-based clichés. Beatrix begins the game with a reputation for cold-blooded ruthlessness, but, being a woman, that of course is only a veneer, as she is just waiting for the right man to melt her icy heart. That man is Steiner, her rival that she holds a grudge against yet eventually falls in love with. Gag.



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Despite all that, Beatrix is pretty badass.


Beatrix also gets protected by Steiner on occasion, and Steiner’s male Pluto Knights arguably outshine the Alexandrian army during key parts of the game (despite the opposite reputation), but credit where credit is due: Beatrix does her fair share of day-saving as well. Her conduct as a general makes her a major step in the right direction, the most positive step in the entire PS1 era of Final Fantasy (and since FFVI’s Celes). But her character development, especially with her inter-personal relationships, was dependent almost entirely on Steiner; despite her tough persona, Beatrix fell into the same love interest trap. Female dependence on male characters has been a theme I have been harping on since the beginning, and Beatrix showed that FF writers still had a ways to go before they could truly offer a wider range of female personalities and roles, free from being shoe-horned into roles that serve as foils for male characters or are strongly dependent on them. Which will come – just not until later.

And certainly not in Final Fantasy X.

The first game on the Playstation 2, FFX was a big hit and still enjoys a large fan base. Many FF fans still consider it one of the best in the series (no matter how often I point out how horribly wrong they are). FFX does the time to give every playable character some depth with fairly detailed back stories, but for many of them, including the female characters, that potential was diminished by shoving the characters into rehashed, male-dependent roles or the overuse of the women as aesthetically-pleasing fan service.

Yuna from Final Fantasy X actually has a central role in the plot; the daughter of High Summoner Braska, the main plot for most of the game is Yuna’s pilgrimage – her quest to prepare herself for the final battle with Sin. But like Aerith in FFVII, for much of the game more focus is put on her relationship with Tidus, the main character.



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Yuna and Tidus, right before one of the most painful scenes in FF history (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5FTJxfV3pc ).


Yuna represents the standard damsel-in-distress-turned-love-interest faithfully represented in every FF since FFVII. She is very loyal, self-sacrificing, and determined, but those are undermined by her constant reliance on male characters. The purpose of every other character is to serve as her protection, and she, of course, is the character who needs rescuing (such as from the temple in Bevelle, where she collapses after the disastrous wedding).

Despite being the playable character that the world overplot largely revolves around, her relevance becomes largely based on her growing relationship with Tidus. Yuna arguably represents the most flagrant example of a female role being minimized by dependence on a male character; Yuna had the makings of a powerful female lead, but instead served as little more than a foil for Tidus’s development. Obviously the lead female just cannot go without being shoved into a love interest role for the real main character. And Tidus is the one who grows the most as a character throughout the game, only emphasizing Yuna’s inferior role. Her main purpose seems to be to develop Tidus’s character.



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Look at how they gaze into each other’s eyes. And people thought Fang and Vanille were the only FF lesbians!


It is also important to note that the physically weakest playable characters in the game are all women, with Yuna being the stereotypical healer (albeit with powerful summons). As I’ve discussed before, female characters are often pushed into cookie-cutter roles based on classic gender stereotypes. This limitation on female roles has been a running theme of Final Fantasy Sexism, and FFX is the perfect example of it.

FFX was also a prime example of exploiting sex appeal. Departing from FFIX’s example, Final Fantasy brought the sex appeal back with a vengeance with the powerful black mage Lulu, who wears thick, opaque robes that cover her entire body – but is conveniently pulled down enough to expose a vast amount of cleavage. That isn’t even the worst part, as her celebratory pose after a victorious battle is… to bend over sexily and shake her enormous boobs at you. I’m not joking, I even took a screenshot for you. My mouth actually hung open the first time I saw it.



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Can you imagine Hawkeye making this pose (http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/)?


The theme of FFX is lost potential, and Lulu is a prime example. She has an atypical personality, is a dark and brooding black mage, but it’s hard to take her seriously when the point of her existence is to show some skin for the fans. Lulu doesn’t have much in the way of plot relevance or development, and her main point in the game seems to be to explain the world to Tidus and show off her boobs (occasionally reminiscing about her dead boyfriend, Chappu). I’m just going to refer you back to the Avengers comic I posted in Part I (http://home.eyesonff.com/content/2256-final-fantasy-sexism-part-i-why-matters.html). What would you think if a man in a video game suddenly thrust his barely-covered crotch at you? (a certain music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0&t=1m54s) notwithstanding) Why is this considered any less ridiculous?

Lastly, there is of course Rikku, the hyperactive, bratty Yuffie clone in skimpy shorts. Between all the love interests and Yuffie clones, it’s a wonder there are any unique female FF characters from FFVII to X. I should note that Rikku deserves some credit for breaking away from the mindless superstition originally embraced by most of the party (especially Wakka), as well as having her own detailed back story. But again, the potential is diminished: she exists to show some skin, look cute, and her personality falls entirely within tired gender tropes that had become stale in FFVIII. There is no more perfect example of women characters being limited into a handful of roles than by the unbroken line of Relm, Yuffie, Selphie, Eiko, and now Rikku.

And do I even need to mention Final Fantasy X-2? The first all-female Final Fantasy, FFX-2’s customization system is called the dress system and utilizes dresspheres and Garment Grids. Just the concept makes me want to vomit.



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The only thing missing is a currency system based on makeup, perfume, and kisses with cute boys.


Now Part IV reaches its end. FFIX and X ended up being more of the same from Part III. There were some positive steps (Beatrix), but they were answered by a major regression in FFX, where female leads were still being heavily dependent on the male leads for relevance and development. It’s hard to imagine how FFs could get much worse with their portrayal of female characters; the only place to go is up!

And up Final Fantasy does indeed go. Be sure to check back in a couple of weeks when Part V goes up, which will focus on the last two (non-MMO) Final Fantasy games, both of which (arguably) feature female leads: Final Fantasy XII and XIII.

So what do you think? Who was the worst damsel-in-distress-turned-love-interest? (I vote Rinoa) Will Squeenix finally learn their lesson? Leave your comments below.

The full FF Sexism series:

Part I (http://home.eyesonff.com/content/2256-final-fantasy-sexism-part-i-why-matters.html)
Part II (http://home.eyesonff.com/content/2296-final-fantasy-sexism-part-ii-early-years-gender-roles.html)
Part III (http://home.eyesonff.com/content/2346-final-fantasy-sexism-part-iii-here-come-boobs.html)


[Unless otherwise credited, all FF images are from The Final Fantasy Wiki (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Wiki)]

Jinx
03-19-2013, 04:56 AM
I don't know what game you're playing, but Rikku is the second strongest character after Auron.

Raistlin
03-19-2013, 01:08 PM
I didn't mean to suggest that she was "bad" or "weak" in any way except for following oft-rehashed roles and stereotypes. I'm not passing judgment on characters as a whole. She had her own positives, and a lot of potential, but her character was shoved into the "hyperactive cute girl" mandatory role, and a lot of her screen time was focused on her being cute/spazzy. She could have been a lot better.

Quindiana Jones
03-19-2013, 01:19 PM
Beatrix and Steiner have one of the best love stories in gaming, you awful, awful man. :(

Night Fury
03-19-2013, 01:49 PM
I disagree Raist. I often thought that Rikku, whilst having some minor 'cute/spazzy' moments, was one of the most mature characters in the game, and had some of the best moments

NeoCracker
03-19-2013, 02:17 PM
I disagree Raist. I often thought that Rikku, whilst having some minor 'cute/spazzy' moments, was one of the most mature characters in the game, and had some of the best moments

I was going to start getting into why exactly Raist is wrong on a few points, as well as bring up something I probably should have earlier, now I am going to agree with him whole heatedly solely because of how wrong you are here.

Night Fury
03-19-2013, 02:20 PM
I disagree Raist. I often thought that Rikku, whilst having some minor 'cute/spazzy' moments, was one of the most mature characters in the game, and had some of the best moments

I was going to start getting into why exactly Raist is wrong on a few points, as well as bring up something I probably should have earlier, now I am going to agree with him whole heatedly solely because of how wrong you are here.

You're wrong. Suck it.

NeoCracker
03-19-2013, 02:20 PM
I disagree Raist. I often thought that Rikku, whilst having some minor 'cute/spazzy' moments, was one of the most mature characters in the game, and had some of the best moments

I was going to start getting into why exactly Raist is wrong on a few points, as well as bring up something I probably should have earlier, now I am going to agree with him whole heatedly solely because of how wrong you are here.

You're wrong. Suck it.

I will never be able to suck it as hard as Rikku.

Raistlin
03-19-2013, 03:11 PM
I disagree Raist. I often thought that Rikku, whilst having some minor 'cute/spazzy' moments, was one of the most mature characters in the game, and had some of the best moments

I think you, along with Boobies, are reading too much into my criticism here. Maybe I should have made myself more clear: I'm not saying she's a bad character. I'm not even saying that she isn't the best character in the game (though she isn't). My only point here, referencing the past games, is that the writers yet again shoved an otherwise promising female character into the same, overused mold. These molds limit the potential and variety of female characters, and do a disservice to women in general. Rikku's strong and mature moments were diminished by her being required to be the cute spaz in skimpy shorts, one of FF's most common tropes. She could have been more of her own, unique person.

Night Fury
03-19-2013, 03:16 PM
I'm not reading too much into your criticism at all. I'm just sharing an opinion.

Jinx
03-19-2013, 03:49 PM
I disagree Raist. I often thought that Rikku, whilst having some minor 'cute/spazzy' moments, was one of the most mature characters in the game, and had some of the best moments

Agreed, fully.

Maybe her outfit design? But her personality really doesn't fit this mold. She's has her loli-con moments, but for the most part she's actually one of the most worldy and mature characters in the game.

Dr. rydrum2112
03-19-2013, 05:08 PM
Raist- I would've hit the wedding part harder in showing the sexism. That whole scene is just ugly to me.

Raistlin
03-20-2013, 12:36 AM
Beatrix and Steiner have one of the best love stories in gaming, you awful, awful man. :(

Haha, I actually expected to get much more bashing from all the FFIX fans around here. Beatrix is probably the strongest independent character from all of the FF love interests up until this point (in that she has the most significance to the game independent of her relationship). But the remnants of sexist tropes that still cling to her are hard to ignore, especially in the context how Squeenix was portraying other female characters at the time (making it less likely to be based on happenstance rather than sexist stereotypes). In another game in another context, those slights would be more easily dismissed.


Raist- I would've hit the wedding part harder in showing the sexism. That whole scene is just ugly to me.

I actually meant to! I fully intended to add in something like that, and I could've sworn I actually typed something up, but it must have slipped my mind. xD I did mention it briefly in Staff. I remember being upset that Yuna could've even seriously considered forsaking her own life's work and purpose to... get hitched to a guy and hang around as his wife. But that was at least portrayed as a bad choice, though my interpretation could be tainted by my own bias.

Shiny
03-20-2013, 12:42 AM
I don't see why there's an argument with scantily clad clothing because in recent years the males have been exploited in such a way too. Zidane and Tidus are wearing friggin' belly shirts for christ sakes.

I'm really surprised you didn't bring up the hot spring scene in FF X-2...some how along the way they forgot Rikku and Yuna are cousins (or didn't care).

Dr. rydrum2112
03-20-2013, 01:24 AM
Well at least Raist was kind enough not to talk about the man-thong in FF9.

Totally agree though, how pathetic was Yuna portrayed that shouldn't "stop" herself or tell Seymour NO. It was at odds with her inner strength throughout the rest of the pilgrimage too...

Jinx
03-20-2013, 02:24 AM
Yuna fully intended to finish her pilgrimage even if she got married.

Aulayna
03-20-2013, 09:23 AM
As I said when you were drafting this I still don't remember Yuna being kidnapped - from what I remember she went along with the Guado plot to take her to Bevelle and play along with the marriage in an attempt to send the unsent Seymour.

Maybe I'm wrong and I need to replay it as, well, it has been 10 years now.

Jinx
03-20-2013, 03:02 PM
-She's kidnapped by the Al Bhed in Luca
-She's kidnapped by the Al Bhed in the Macalania/Bevelle transition
-She's kidnapped by the Guado for the wedding sequence (I think they do say that she went with them so they'd stop attacking the Al Bhed, but she was still kidnapped, come on).

Aulayna
03-20-2013, 03:16 PM
Yeah I should've been more clear that I meant in relation to the wedding.

Goldenboko
03-20-2013, 03:16 PM
Yuna never intended on abandoning her journey to get married to Seymour. She considered marrying him to make the populace happy and then trotting off and completing her journey anyway.


Yuna
"If my getting married would help Spira..."
"if it would make people happy..."
"If I could do that for people... maybe I should do what I can."
"I never imagined doing anything like this."
"But, I won't answer till I know what's right."

Tidus
"Seriously?"

Rikku
"You could always just quit your pilgrimage and get married."

Yuna
"I will...go on."
"I'm sure that Lord Seymour will understand."

Rikku
"Umm, I guess so..."

Yuna
"I am a summoner!"
"I must fight and defeat Sin."

Auron
"Like Braska before you."

I never understood why people disliked Yuna. I always found her devotion to self-sacrifice a good plot line to go in contrast to Tidus's self-serving plot. I always found that Tidus gets offed at the end and Yuna lives on to be a great irony.

Furthermore as for the kidnapping occurrences, there's an entire plotline in the game based around the Albhed nabbing the Summoner's (male or female) to stop them from sacrificing themselves on their pilgrimage. I'd understand punishing the writer's for including Yuna getting kidnapped a lot of it had nothing to do with a core part of the plot, except it does.

Night Fury
03-20-2013, 03:26 PM
Yuna never intended on abandoning her journey to get married to Seymour. She considered marrying him to make the populace happy and then trotting off and completing her journey anyway.


Yuna
"If my getting married would help Spira..."
"if it would make people happy..."
"If I could do that for people... maybe I should do what I can."
"I never imagined doing anything like this."
"But, I won't answer till I know what's right."

Tidus
"Seriously?"

Rikku
"You could always just quit your pilgrimage and get married."

Yuna
"I will...go on."
"I'm sure that Lord Seymour will understand."

Rikku
"Umm, I guess so..."

Yuna
"I am a summoner!"
"I must fight and defeat Sin."

Auron
"Like Braska before you."

I never understood why people disliked Yuna. I always found her devotion to self-sacrifice a good plot line to go in contrast to Tidus's self-serving plot. I always found that Tidus gets offed at the end and Yuna lives on to be a great irony.


It's actually quite frequent that a strong leading female must sacrifice something after her success. Whilst Yuna isn't sacrificing her life, she does have to give up Tidus as part of defeating Sin. It's almost a punishment to her in some ways for defying the 'traditional' method that was set up by Yu Yevon or whatshisfacefloatyballthingamaboo.

Other notable examples:
Buffy when she has to kill Angel in order to save the world in Becoming Part II.
Sarah Walker when she downloads the intersect, wiping her memories to save Chuck.

Noted, I've just written my dissertation on them so they stick out a LOT, but it's a recurring idea.

Quindiana Jones
03-20-2013, 06:31 PM
Still taking issue with your opinion of Beatrix and Steiner, man. They were magnificently handled, most of the time. :potentiallyrosetinted:

Steiner is the only character one can compare to Beatrix, in basically every way. In fact, they are pretty much just the opposite gender version of each other. They're both career soldiers, who have dedicated their life and everything they are to serving the Queen and country. They have sacrificed everything else to do so. Then, throughout the course of the game, certain things happen that make them question their priorities, and they go about exploring this potential. Finally, it culminates in an adorable scene in which they decide that it was never worth sacrificing happiness for the sake of duty. They have the same character foundation, they develop in the same way, and they come to the same conclusion.

You remain an awful, awful man. :colbert:

Jinx
03-20-2013, 08:40 PM
Yeah, I honestly feel like some of the criticisms are a little weird. So, if a strong, female character falls in love with a male character during a game/book/movie/etc, then it becomes sexist?

Really, I feel by the criteria you're laying out, Lightning is possible the only anti-sexist character in this game.

Raistlin
03-20-2013, 10:04 PM
I don't see why there's an argument with scantily clad clothing because in recent years the males have been exploited in such a way too. Zidane and Tidus are wearing friggin' belly shirts for christ sakes.

I'm really surprised you didn't bring up the hot spring scene in FF X-2...some how along the way they forgot Rikku and Yuna are cousins (or didn't care).

So a guy with his midriff showing is equivalent to a woman's victory pose being to bend over in her low-cut robes and shaking her cleavage at the camera? I just don't see how you even equate the two. Lulu is on a whole different level of fan service.

Also I didn't go into detail about FFX-2 because I haven't played the game (and, outside this article, have generally refused to acknowledge its existence).


As I said when you were drafting this I still don't remember Yuna being kidnapped - from what I remember she went along with the Guado plot to take her to Bevelle and play along with the marriage in an attempt to send the unsent Seymour.

Maybe I'm wrong and I need to replay it as, well, it has been 10 years now.

I agree with how Boobies laid it out. From my recollection, she was pretty clearly captured. She ended up choosing not to resist (at some point probably because she planned to try to send Seymour), but the Guado definitely captured her, and the party was definitely trying to rescue her.


Yuna never intended on abandoning her journey to get married to Seymour. She considered marrying him to make the populace happy and then trotting off and completing her journey anyway.

I never said she intended to quit, but that was the choice presented to her. After some deliberation, she ended up deciding that she would go on with her pilgrimage regardless, but that was unlikely the choice Seymour intended or how many of the other characters understood the original choice (especially given how dying during the pilgrimage is the desired goal).


I never understood why people disliked Yuna. I always found her devotion to self-sacrifice a good plot line to go in contrast to Tidus's self-serving plot. I always found that Tidus gets offed at the end and Yuna lives on to be a great irony.

Furthermore as for the kidnapping occurrences, there's an entire plotline in the game based around the Albhed nabbing the Summoner's (male or female) to stop them from sacrificing themselves on their pilgrimage. I'd understand punishing the writer's for including Yuna getting kidnapped a lot of it had nothing to do with a core part of the plot, except it does.

It's true that the Al Bhed capturing Yuna is a developed plot point (and, in their mind, not so much "kidnapping" as "saving"). I'm not sure what relevance that has, though. I'm not criticizing Yuna needed saving as kidnappings-for-the-sake-of-kidnappings. My point is that, when you look over FFIV through X as a whole, basically all of the playable characters who ever need saving after being captured are female. It's a trend that's difficult to ignore.

And I dislike Yuna as a character because, like Rinoa in FFVIII, she is a flat foil for Tidus to develop around. She starts off as an almost unattainable ideal: perfect, beautiful, and unreachable for Tidus, no matter his desire. The story isn't based on how she grows and changes and she doesn't do much of either; instead, you see how Tidus grows through his relationship with her. Despite how strong Yuna's backstory is and the potential for her character, her significance in the game revolves largely around Tidus.


Yeah, I honestly feel like some of the criticisms are a little weird. So, if a strong, female character falls in love with a male character during a game/book/movie/etc, then it becomes sexist?

Of course not. The simple act of having a relationship is not sexist at all. As has been the running theme of this series, context matters. The cold-hearted woman who just needs her Prince Charming to melt her heart is a trope that is difficult to ignore given how flagrantly FF writers had shoved female characters into love interest roles. I'm not trying to point to every little thing and say "that's sexist!" by itself. I'm trying to get you to look at everything as a whole, look at every little piece in the context of everything else surrounding it, and you can make your own judgments whether, in that context, that portrayal of a female character was innocently done or based on sexist stereotypes. In that sense, I think the Beatrix-Steiner relationship is worth considering. In another game in another context, Beatrix wouldn't even be worth mentioning.

Jinx
03-20-2013, 10:29 PM
Yuna changes and grows a LOT during the game.

Remmy
03-27-2013, 12:05 AM
I want to say something about FFX-2, and about dresspheres. I think this needs to be said in here. The FFX-2 Dressphere version is based on the Japanese theme of "Magical Girls", where female characters change clothes to stop evil (like Sailor Moon). I'm not going to say it's good or bad, because it is, indeed, a cultural issue and a cultural difference between Western and Eastern. Now, I know it was kind of... well, I don't think we need to talk about how it came off as, though I will introduce the idea that it was a cultural issue.

As far as FFIX goes, Beatrix was a strong female character. You must admit that the scene where Eiko asks Dr. Tot to write the letter to Zidane and it ends up with Beatrix and Steiner and aodhaidhawuidhauidhauidhfeosgsorg, that was the most comedic, fantastic scene in FF9.

Lulu had sex appeal, but she was classy. And what's wrong with a female with sex appeal? I mean Jecht was shirtless and I drooled all over that, and Auron at Luca where there's the FMV, there was male sex appeal there too.

I'm not going to say you're wrong. You did bring up some good points, for sure; however, at the same time, I think you may be hitting some things too hard. I don't think it is sexist to show females with sex appeal unless it's degrading, especially in games where males are shown with sex appeal as well.

42184 <-- Shows a lot of skin and a lot of chest.

Jinx
03-27-2013, 02:33 AM
Lulu is classy.


Lulu and Yuna both pull curative items out of their boob cracks. xD

Shiny
03-27-2013, 02:33 AM
Not just the midriff -- that was a poor example. I can think of a more scantily clad male character like Kuja for example as someone already pointed out. Pretty much every main character, male or female in this series is exploited sexually. They know they have to appeal to straight fangirls and gay fanboys as well. While I agree with your argument about Lulu, I always saw her large breasts as more of a symbol of her maternal role in the group rather than it just being about ta ta's.

Remmy
03-27-2013, 02:34 AM
Also wanted to add this to the discussion: Garnet needed Zidane to help her, but Zidane needed Garnet as well. Where Eiko, Vivi, Freya, Amaranth, Steiner and Quina all failed, it was Garnet who showed Zidane that he was not alone, that he could defy his purpose and fate. I'm not saying gender roles weren't a part of it -- they were, for sure (it was made in 2000, what can you expect?), but yeah, just wanted to add that.

Quindiana Jones
03-27-2013, 02:38 PM
Still of the opinion that you're wrong about Beatrix, and I hope you die. :colbert:

Remmy
03-27-2013, 09:18 PM
Still of the opinion that you're wrong about Beatrix, and I hope you die. :colbert:

Excuse me. I disagree with their opinion on Beatrix as well, but that was just rude and wrong. If you can't be a part of the discussion like an adult, you're free to leave.

Sephiroth
03-27-2013, 09:24 PM
I cannot understand why Garnet and Yuna are thought to be minimized into their role as love interest. It is a very important aspect of their story but not the only one. Just because they eventually fall in love with the male main character their "remaining story" is not over. And the love interest part is story either, so I am glad how it is. I don't see this as sexism, I see this as something romantic I always want in a great story as long as it is not unfitting. Also, Yuna in Final Fantasy X is the absolutely good soul who is pretty much the closest character to Aerith. No one can get her "really really angry", she always tries to do what is right and does not care about her own life. She is just a bit less confident apart of these things but she tries to enjoy life as long as it lasts. Aerith is more cheeky in some situations but still the "good soul".

Who wonders what that means: Aerith is my favourite female character. So Yuna is the type of character who is also very easy to like for me. She has changed in Final Fantasy X-2 but everyone changes and when I think I must die and don't I also try and learn to enjoy life more since I don't have a visible countdown.

NeoCracker
03-27-2013, 09:54 PM
Still of the opinion that you're wrong about Beatrix, and I hope you die. :colbert:

Excuse me. I disagree with their opinion on Beatrix as well, but that was just rude and wrong. If you can't be a part of the discussion like an adult, you're free to leave.

I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p

Jinx
03-27-2013, 09:57 PM
Still of the opinion that you're wrong about Beatrix, and I hope you die. :colbert:

Excuse me. I disagree with their opinion on Beatrix as well, but that was just rude and wrong. If you can't be a part of the discussion like an adult, you're free to leave.

I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p

It's true. We're mean to each other here.

Remmy
03-28-2013, 03:30 AM
I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p
Well, I am new here, so I don't know, still kinda rude XD

I also agree with Sephiroth... I mean, Tidus and Zidane changed too. Should I be upset that the "Woman changed them!" and that Square is sexist? And as far as Yuna being an extension of Tidus... it's Tidus' story. Everyone is an extension of Tidus to help his story, his change.

Lulu is always giving him tips, Kimahri is regulating what he can/can't do in the temples, Rikku is working with him to find another way, Auron is being a bodyguard to him, and Jecht's only purpose is Tidus' character growth/change. So yes, Yuna might be his extension, but so is everyone else. But just because everyone is his extension, it doesn't mean they don't grow and change as well into well rounded characters.

Jinx
03-28-2013, 03:38 AM
I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p
Well, I am new here, so I don't know, still kinda rude XD

I also agree with Sephiroth... I mean, Tidus and Zidane changed too. Should I be upset that the "Woman changed them!" and that Square is sexist? And as far as Yuna being an extension of Tidus... it's Tidus' story. Everyone is an extension of Tidus to help his story, his change.

Lulu is always giving him tips, Kimahri is regulating what he can/can't do in the temples, Rikku is working with him to find another way, Auron is being a bodyguard to him, and Jecht's only purpose is Tidus' character growth/change. So yes, Yuna might be his extension, but so is everyone else. But just because everyone is his extension, it doesn't mean they don't grow and change as well into well rounded characters.

Well, there's sexism right there.

FFX is really Yuna's story, not Tidus'. But one can assume they marketed it as his to appeal to greater audiences.

NeoCracker
03-28-2013, 03:39 AM
I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p
Well, I am new here, so I don't know, still kinda rude XD

You should see some of the horrifying things me and Wolf will say to each other. Put's Quin's comments to shame. ;P

Goldenboko
03-28-2013, 03:43 AM
I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p
Well, I am new here, so I don't know, still kinda rude XD

I also agree with Sephiroth... I mean, Tidus and Zidane changed too. Should I be upset that the "Woman changed them!" and that Square is sexist? And as far as Yuna being an extension of Tidus... it's Tidus' story. Everyone is an extension of Tidus to help his story, his change.

Lulu is always giving him tips, Kimahri is regulating what he can/can't do in the temples, Rikku is working with him to find another way, Auron is being a bodyguard to him, and Jecht's only purpose is Tidus' character growth/change. So yes, Yuna might be his extension, but so is everyone else. But just because everyone is his extension, it doesn't mean they don't grow and change as well into well rounded characters.

Well, there's sexism right there.

FFX is really Yuna's story, not Tidus'. But one can assume they marketed it as his to appeal to greater audiences.

I'm not willing to say a story is sexist because it has a male lead. The industry could favor male leads, causing overall sexism in the industry. Not in the particular case. This is an important difference.

Jinx
03-28-2013, 03:50 AM
I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p
Well, I am new here, so I don't know, still kinda rude XD

I also agree with Sephiroth... I mean, Tidus and Zidane changed too. Should I be upset that the "Woman changed them!" and that Square is sexist? And as far as Yuna being an extension of Tidus... it's Tidus' story. Everyone is an extension of Tidus to help his story, his change.

Lulu is always giving him tips, Kimahri is regulating what he can/can't do in the temples, Rikku is working with him to find another way, Auron is being a bodyguard to him, and Jecht's only purpose is Tidus' character growth/change. So yes, Yuna might be his extension, but so is everyone else. But just because everyone is his extension, it doesn't mean they don't grow and change as well into well rounded characters.

Well, there's sexism right there.

FFX is really Yuna's story, not Tidus'. But one can assume they marketed it as his to appeal to greater audiences.

I'm not willing to say a story is sexist because it has a male lead. The industry could favor male leads, causing overall sexism in the industry. Not in the particular case. This is an important difference.

Absolutely in this particular case. Why make the "main character" about the secondary character in the story for any other reason? Yuna is the obvious protagonist. Why is Tidus slated as the protagonist when he's not?

NeoCracker
03-28-2013, 05:39 AM
I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p
Well, I am new here, so I don't know, still kinda rude XD

I also agree with Sephiroth... I mean, Tidus and Zidane changed too. Should I be upset that the "Woman changed them!" and that Square is sexist? And as far as Yuna being an extension of Tidus... it's Tidus' story. Everyone is an extension of Tidus to help his story, his change.

Lulu is always giving him tips, Kimahri is regulating what he can/can't do in the temples, Rikku is working with him to find another way, Auron is being a bodyguard to him, and Jecht's only purpose is Tidus' character growth/change. So yes, Yuna might be his extension, but so is everyone else. But just because everyone is his extension, it doesn't mean they don't grow and change as well into well rounded characters.

Well, there's sexism right there.

FFX is really Yuna's story, not Tidus'. But one can assume they marketed it as his to appeal to greater audiences.

I'm not willing to say a story is sexist because it has a male lead. The industry could favor male leads, causing overall sexism in the industry. Not in the particular case. This is an important difference.

Absolutely in this particular case. Why make the "main character" about the secondary character in the story for any other reason? Yuna is the obvious protagonist. Why is Tidus slated as the protagonist when he's not?

Besides the obvious answer of shitty writing?

Raistlin
04-01-2013, 02:52 AM
Just a heads up to my (possibly imaginary) fan and numerous detractors: Part V is going to be a bit late due to illness. I have been laid up for the past several days, and just made it worse by trying to work through it last week. I will try to have it out within the next few days.

NeoCracker
04-01-2013, 03:18 AM
I will say, the two of them always talk to each other like that. A lot of us joke like that with each other here. :p
Well, I am new here, so I don't know, still kinda rude XD

I also agree with Sephiroth... I mean, Tidus and Zidane changed too. Should I be upset that the "Woman changed them!" and that Square is sexist? And as far as Yuna being an extension of Tidus... it's Tidus' story. Everyone is an extension of Tidus to help his story, his change.

Lulu is always giving him tips, Kimahri is regulating what he can/can't do in the temples, Rikku is working with him to find another way, Auron is being a bodyguard to him, and Jecht's only purpose is Tidus' character growth/change. So yes, Yuna might be his extension, but so is everyone else. But just because everyone is his extension, it doesn't mean they don't grow and change as well into well rounded characters.

Well, there's sexism right there.

FFX is really Yuna's story, not Tidus'. But one can assume they marketed it as his to appeal to greater audiences.

I'm not willing to say a story is sexist because it has a male lead. The industry could favor male leads, causing overall sexism in the industry. Not in the particular case. This is an important difference.

Absolutely in this particular case. Why make the "main character" about the secondary character in the story for any other reason? Yuna is the obvious protagonist. Why is Tidus slated as the protagonist when he's not?

Also, I think I'll resonpd seriously to this. :p

This is a way of writing that, while not uncommon, is not unheard of. Even if the story is about someone else, it may be told from another persons perspective. A big reason is the percpective from which a story is told will change how the audience views the events. The story told with the view of Tidus gives us the perspective of an outsider who views the world as strange and bizarre.

This would come across very differently were it told from the perspective of Yuna, some one who see's this world and everything going on as normal, and see's her actions as performing the duty's of a Summoner.

A great example of doing something like this is Herbert West - Reanimator by H.P. Lovecraft. The entirety of the story is told through the perspective of West's assistant, who honestly has little to nothing to do with all the events going on throughout the story. Making him the focus, however, gives us a great view of West himself, and helps piece together exactly why West is so strange in a completely different way had we instead gotten the perspective of West himself.

Now, I'm not saying there is no Sexism if X, especially since I don't even remember what Raist said about it, but yeah, there is definately reasons to make Tidus the Protagonist instead of Yuna that have nothing to do with sexism.

chionos
04-01-2013, 03:23 AM
Just a heads up to my (possibly imaginary) fan and numerous detractors: Part V is going to be a bit late due to illness. I have been laid up for the past several days, and just made it worse by trying to work through it last week. I will try to have it out within the next few days.

Pssh. Excuses.

Fans: -1 Numerous Detractors: +1

Also, to a certain point I agree with Neo that part of the problem is subpar writing.
But it's also true that the whole thing could be seen as stylistically intentional. The main character and the primary protagonist in a story are not always the same person. Take the greatest novel of all time as an example. In Anna Karenin(a), the primary protagonist of the novel is Konstantin Levin, Mitya, while the book's main character is Anna.

You could say that Tidus's story relies on Yuna's story just as easily as the reverse.

Also, making Tidus the apparent main character allows the game's plot to be more striking than it would be with Tidus as merely a supporting character (think Bruce Willis in 6th Sense). There's plenty of sexism going on in FFX, but this Tidus/Yuna thing is not part of it.


Edit: Yep, Neo backed me up (or I him) perfectly.

Spooniest
04-01-2013, 04:09 AM
Part V is going to be a bit late due to illness. I have been laid up

I've been a little under the weather, too...

Get better soon and give us a corker of an article, why don't ya!