Apparently Lara Croft is Non-Existent

[Shiny]

Why publishers refuse games such as Remember Me because of their female protagonists • News • Eurogamer.net (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-19-why-publishers-refuse-games-such-as-remember-me-because-of-their-female-protagonists?utm_source=eurogamer&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=net-daily)

[DMKA]

Bayonetta (Bayonetta)
Chell (Portal 2)
Lightning (Final Fantasy XIII, XIII-2)
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)
Faith (Mirror's Edge)
Nariko (Heavenly Sword)

Those are all games just this gen that I played, with female protagonists, that sold millions of copies. This whole article sounds like attention grabbing lies to me.

[Pete for President]

Those exceptions aside, I bet there is some truth in the core of the story.

It's speculation, but it is possible Bayonetta, Heavenly Sword and Mirror's Edge never got sequels due to publishers denying them. Whereas a similar type of game like God of War (in the case of Heavenly Sword) and Devil May Cry (Bayonetta) sprout sequels like it's nothing.

On the case of Remember Me; yes please, show credible humans in a videogame. Glad they found a publisher who dares to disprove the figures mentioned in the article.

[NeoCracker]

I can't say I'm surprised publishers might deny a game based on a female lead, especially one who is seen kissing another guy. I think it's kind of silly they would though. I think it's kind of a case of executives not really seeing things how gamers see them, cause all too often these people are not gamers themselves.

Yes, gaming is still mostly a male demographic, but we are not so shallow that we cannot handle playing a female role. Her kissing men would not be awkward. I'm sure someone out there would be bothered by it, but publishers need to be more willing to give shit like this a shot. Give these games that do come out with female leads the same kind of advertising (Well, assuming it's something they can afford). Not only will I think they will find we male gamers aren't all that bothered by it, but you can also help to let everyone know woman are in fact a viable market for games. Not all games need to have a testosterone filled focus, nor do they need a male lead for us guys to relate to it.

[the_best_noob]

Also, the Sirens(Lilith and Maya) and the Mechromancer(Gaige) from the Borderlands series.

[NeoCracker]

Interview: Remember Me interview: 'How stupid is this industry to only bet on stereotypes?' - ComputerAndVideoGames.com (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/376371/interviews/remember-me-interview-how-stupid-is-this-industry-to-only-bet-on-stereotypes/)

Okay, I love the very last bit when the guy behind this game seems to snap a bit. :p

[Aulayna]

Also, the Sirens(Lilith and Maya) and the Mechromancer(Gaige) from the Borderlands series.

The article is talking about games specifically with ONLY a female lead (particularly where the only playable character is female) being a deterrent to publishers - not games where you have the option to be male or female. :)

[DMKA]

It's speculation, but it is possible Bayonetta, Heavenly Sword and Mirror's Edge never got sequels due to publishers denying them.

Tomb Raider's nine game run, FFXIII's three game run and Portal 2 kind of make that a moot point, and then there's...

Bayonetta 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonetta_2)

Mirror's Edge 2 is being made right now - Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5962580/mirrors-edge-2-is-being-made-right-now-according-to-ex+ea-developer)

Again, I don't buy the article as being anything genuine other than more attention grabbing, and crying "SEXISM!" is the easiest way to do that in the video game industry as of late.

[Aulayna]

Compare the number of games with male leads to the small list you provided. That's what the article is getting at and is accounting for a developers first hand view of trying to convince publishers to publish a game in light of industry sales figures that, at face value, suggest there isn't a big enough market for it.

If anything it's actually an interesting look at how the mindset of publishers work and the impression they have of consumers rather than something that's crying wolf about sexism to get attention. Which, considering EuroGamer is a fairly reputable and big name gaming news source, is a pretty hilarious accusation to level at it - especially considering it's something that's being covered by other news sites too.

[Denmark]

Samus says hi.

http://levelsave.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Samus-Aran.jpg

[krissy]

hi samus

here's the points of the article i think


Looking back at an earlier PA Report, data from video game research and consulting firm EEDAR showed that, from a sample of 669 current-gen games which had protagonists of a specific gender, only 24 of these were exclusively fronted by women.
Less than half had the option of a female lead, including games where you created your own character.


Male-only hero games sold 25 per cent better than those with an optional female hero, and 75 per cent better than whose with a female-only hero.
But this doesn’t tell the whole story. These figures reflect the fact that games with female-only heroes get less than half the marketing budget of titles with male-only heroes.
“Games with a female-only protagonist got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 per cent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually,” Zatkin concluded.
That’s the truth, then - that the people choosing what game receives what marketing budget are helping continue a self-fulfilling prophecy. The majority of publishers continue down the safe route of funding male-only led games, comfortable in the knowledge that, because of this, male-only led games sell by the bucket load.

i wouldn't have heard of remember me without this article so i'm pretty happy cause it looks like a definite purchase

edit: which makes me think this might be subtle advertising anyway.

[Quindiana Jones]

That BioWare dude said it best when people comnplained about all the full-frontal male nudity and hardcore buttsex in ME3. I hate to paraphrase, as I know I'll not be able to do it justice, but he essentially said that people who demand that developers cater to their horrible, :bou::bou::bou::bou:y attitudes are exactly the kind of people who should not be catered to.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Exceptions do not make the rule. Like krissy pointed out, these games represent a very small number in face in a very large number of male led games. Moreover, even in the examples that have given, you would also have to consider to what degree the female leads are actual round characters and not facsimiles of women. I mean Lara Croft has been up-to-recently largely sexualized and seen more as a sex figure? Bayonetta fairs not better. Chell remains unseen for most of the game due to the first person use. That begs the question if her sex even mattered. So yes, there are games with female leads but they represent a minority. Moreover, even in the cases that they are female leads, it is also necessary to look at how their character is treated, developed, and marketed.

Another point to consider is that these publishers do not exist in a vacuum. And while perhaps they marketing and research methods could be a bit off, the truth remains is that they are responding to the overall gaming community in general. Now, from my experience EoFF is a pretty awesome community and there isn't a lot of sexism (as far as I know but then again I am male) that occurs here. But in the larger gaming community there is. That's why I would take what Neocracker saying about male gamers not being bothered by it as misleading. I am sure he may not be bothered by it but by and large the greater gaming world has shown itself to be otherwise. The fact that people like Anita Sarkeesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian) try to look at the roles of women in video games and gets death threats and trolling in return shows the problem with the community at large. Moreover, there are studies showing that women will receive a lot more harassment than males when playing video games. In this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiYenTang/20130208/186335/Reactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php) the authors looked at how people responded to both male and female voices of different skill level. The voices were pre-recorded so that the sex and skill level of player did not matter. Overall, it found that the female voices received three times the negative comments than the male voices.

It is really sad the state that things are in. The thing is as men because we don't experience this, we tend not to see it as being relevant or existing.

Heck, like some others I would not have heard of this game were it not for this thread. I think I will buy it, depending on my money situation at the time.

[Loony BoB]

I'll be open and honest: I don't mind playing female characters, I can play that role in my head without much trouble for the most part. However, if my female character were to go jump in bed with a guy and get randy, I would feel very weird. It's not a case of being sexist, though - if it were a male character jumping into bed with a guy and getting randy, I'd feel equally weird.

When I say 'weird', I mean that this character, who is someone I try to "get into the role of" (this is why I always play paragon on ME, because it's my personality being put into the character), is doing something that I would never do. It's completely at odds with the immersion I experience in the rest of the game. ME manages this rather perfectly - there are straight relationships and gay relationships all ticked off and they are optional. If they want to have a great lead female character while still allowing for complete immersion in the game from the player's perspective, the best way to do this is to make romances optional.

Still, despite all this, would I suddenly not want to play the game because of that one moment? Hell, no! It would ruint he immersion for me, but if the game is good, it should sell regardless. Also, sometimes it's not a story where you want to 'be' the character but instead a story where you want to 'watch' the character, almost like a movie - in these cases, I just can't see how it should be a big issue. I can watch Lara Croft kiss a guy without being put off, because in Tomb Raider (2013 game) I just see it as a movie where I guide the character rather than 'being' the character.

I think TSoL has it summed up very nicely, by the way, when he discusses different kinds of cultures within the gaming world and also how each character is presented.

[Jinx]

Loony BoB--Would you feel weird if the lead was a male, and he jumped into bed with a woman?

[DK]

My simple man brain is not capable of comprehending why a female protagonist having a partner and expressing affection for them should bother anyone or make anyone feel uncomfortable. I find the idea of female protagonists spending entire games being concerned entirely with grabbing treasure, fighting bad guys and wearing outfits designed to make teenage boys nurse a semi without ever displaying the ability to or desire to engage in a relationship far more troublesome.

I'd wager that half the companies rejecting the game would have picked it up if the main character had a lesbian partner. The whole thing is just stupid. I'd like to think that as a society we'd be mature enough to not be turned off by this kind of thing, but at the same time I can't really disagree with the producers that there probably would be a minority who would have a moan about it.

Either way I'd play the game and I wouldn't give a shit what she did with her romantic interest.

[Psychotic]

Woman protagonist? Who cares? I think the real issue here is the game's setting. Who the smurf wants to play a game set in France? Good on the publishers for trying to bury this gallic piece of trash.

[Bolivar]

I'm not sure if the stats are painting the accurate picture the author wants. We've already shown a lot of the games with the biggest budgets can feature definitively female leads or games where the gender is up to the player like The Elder Scrolls and Mass Effect, the latter of which spent a good deal of time marketing the game based on the female character. I think they say it's "less than half" that have a female lead or allow the player to choose the gender, and that might be ok with me. We don't need a perfect 50% because that would create a synthetic environment that subverts creativity. I'm sure there are some publishers out there that will refuse to greenlight a game based on a woman protagonist, but I don't see the game industry and its marketing teams as a whole being terrified of female leads or at least subconsciously colluding to keep them out of gaming (they haven't been doing a good job if that's the case).

I think the more interesting point he brought up is how many games with a female character show her expressing affection in a relationship. I do see our gaming culture having a problem with that, even if none of us on this forum do (except BoB :P ). I do wonder if that's a cross-gender issue, though, given how few games I actually see a male lead in a relationship. That might have to do with our culture getting in an uproar over explicit sexuality, but having no problem with explicit violence, and the video game industry perhaps embodies this principle better than any other medium. I've heard George RR Martin call this a uniquely American thing, I'm not sure if it is, I'm curious what our European members think.

[Aulayna]

Mass Effect, [...] which spent a good deal of time marketing the game based on the female character.

To be fair they didn't really start doing that until Mass Effect 3.

[Skyblade]

The statistics are worthless.

Game sales are driven by far more than the protagonist's gender.

For example, first person shooters are incredibly popular and sell well. They also feature mostly male protagonists, which skew the numbers. If you played a girl instead of Master Chief or the Rookie in the Halo games, would they sell any less? No. Heck, you could gender swap the main character and not tell anyone, and no one would know the difference. Did Metroid Prime sell any less because Samus was a girl? Hell, no. The gender doesn't matter, it's far more about the mechanics and the gameplay style, and a male protagonist is used simply out of habit and the fact that companies don't like to experiment.

Do the statistics take that into account? Nope.

And that's only one of dozens of factors that make these statistics worthless.


Games can, and do, sell well with female leads. We've seen tons of examples in recent years alone (which you have all already cited, so I won't bother to go over again). We will see more in the future.

Hopefully somone will get word out to these guys to forget the industry and start crowdfunding it.

[XxSephirothxX]

For example, first person shooters are incredibly popular and sell well. They also feature mostly male protagonists, which skew the numbers. If you played a girl instead of Master Chief or the Rookie in the Halo games, would they sell any less? No. Heck, you could gender swap the main character and not tell anyone, and no one would know the difference. Did Metroid Prime sell any less because Samus was a girl? Hell, no. The gender doesn't matter, it's far more about the mechanics and the gameplay style, and a male protagonist is used simply out of habit and the fact that companies don't like to experiment.

You're ignoring the point, which is: Why do they all have male protagonists? In the vast majority of games, a male protagonist is default. It's expected. It's "normal." I think you're being naive if you think a Halo game with a female Master Chief would have sold as well to a mass audience as the games did with the gravelly voiced male lead.

Similarly, a lot of other examples don't do much to disprove the fact that female leads are pretty marginalized. The Metroid Prime games each only sold a bit more than a million copies. Maybe something like two million lifetime, far lower than the ~10 million Call of Duty sells annually (obviously it's one of the most popular franchises on the planet, but the point is Metroid is very small in comparison). Heavenly Sword was pretty much a flop. Mirror's Edge is well-loved, but only sold about two million. That is pretty decent. Bayonetta wouldn't have a sequel if Nintendo didn't step in to publish the second game as an exclusive for the Wii U.

Sexism can play a role without being overtly malicious. Sometimes it is malicious, as TSoL pointed out about Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs. Women series. But other times it's there, affecting the decisions people make and the way things are presented, and it's easy to overlook because it just seems normal.

[Bolivar]

There are a thousand and one debatable reasons why Halo sold such an astronomical amount of copies. Master Chief's gender was an ancillary one at best. That's not being naive. In this conversation, I'd say he was fairly perceptive.

Judging a game on its ability to sell multiples of millions isn't a fair assessment. Very few games reach that threshold, and dismissing a long line of iconic gaming heroines because later entries sold only a million is pretty arbitrary.

No one's denying there's less absurdly successful games with female leads in them than with men, or that some publishers' reluctance to over-market them is related to it. But the developer overextended himself with the comments at issue, with ample evidence to the contrary.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I agree that what propagates sales of a particular game are many things, but I think that the gender of the characters do factor in. What is naive is to think that games such as CoD or Halo would sell as well if you were forced to play a female character or that there would be no controversy. I'd be willing to wager money if Activision decided in the next CoD to make the main character female, that there would be complaints. Heck, it'd be a wager I would be sad to win and happy to lose.

Moreover, it does not change the fact that researchers found out of 669 current-gen games, only 24 had female only protagonist. That's 3.6% of the games! I think that is a bit more than "skewed". I think this itself is an issue that cannot be easily explained away.


long line of iconic gaming heroines

Please elucidate. I, for one, would not call figures like Princess Peach/Toadstool and Zelda "heroines". Peach is a classic damsel in distress. She has like zero agency and is just a plot device for Mario. Zelda fairs not much better. Few gaming "heroines" are given their own games, or even developed fully as a character. Often they are just charicatures of women, sexualized objects, plot devices, marginalized (i.e. secondary/tertiary characters), or their sex is rendered insignificant/invisible. That is not to say that the industry isn't changing and that you cannot find strong female characters that escape or at least complicate these problems, yet the majority of depictions of women in video games is not flattering.

[Aulayna]

She has like zero agency and is just a plot device for Mario. Zelda fairs not much better. Few gaming "heroines" are given their own games, or even developed fully as a character. Often they are just charicatures of women, sexualized objects, plot devices, marginalized (i.e. secondary/tertiary characters), or their sex is rendered insignificant/invisible.

This is exceptionally true of Samus Aran who falls into nearly all of those at the same time. Clad behind that Power Suit you have no idea what her gender is until your reward for being a completionist is her essentially soft-stripping. Then in Other M she pretty much got relegated from being this strong, voiceless, independent bounty hunter into a love interest for Adam. The story behind her is really interested but the games pay it such little attention that it's practically non-existent unless you want to read up on it.

It's very easy to say sales figures aren't important - but publishers are looking for a return on interest so sales figures are sadly quite important.

[Quindiana Jones]

Out of those 669 games, I would also be curious as to how many had male only protagonists.

Also, Toad is a girl?! :eek:

[Bolivar]

Speaking of COD, your gender is often just as relegated to non-existence as it is in Metroid. In the Modern Warfare games, your character is sometimes given a name, but he never speaks and you never see his face.

[Jinx]

Out of those 669 games, I would also be curious as to how many had male only protagonists.

Also, Toad is a girl?! :eek:

I'm pretty sure Toad is a boy. They made Toadette, his female companion.

[Loony BoB]

Loony BoB--Would you feel weird if the lead was a male, and he jumped into bed with a woman?
No, because when I immerse myself in a role I have no particular issues with the male character sleeping with a female character - however, if I don't like the female character at all then I probably wouldn't enjoy it on any level.

Essentially it all comes down to role immersion. I struggle to immerse myself in the role of a person who displays characteristics which are so far apart from my own. This is why I don't play Renegade on Mass Effect, nor do I encourage my character to sleep with aliens (female included).

I love immersing myself in roles, but sometimes a game will come along that I just can't immerse myself in, and that game can on occasion lose some kind of appeal to me when compared with games in which I can immerse myself in. It's only a natural thing. Still, it's a very small part of a game and I don't think that it has ever impacted whether or not I purchase/play a game.

[Skyblade]

For example, first person shooters are incredibly popular and sell well. They also feature mostly male protagonists, which skew the numbers. If you played a girl instead of Master Chief or the Rookie in the Halo games, would they sell any less? No. Heck, you could gender swap the main character and not tell anyone, and no one would know the difference. Did Metroid Prime sell any less because Samus was a girl? Hell, no. The gender doesn't matter, it's far more about the mechanics and the gameplay style, and a male protagonist is used simply out of habit and the fact that companies don't like to experiment.

You're ignoring the point, which is: Why do they all have male protagonists? In the vast majority of games, a male protagonist is default. It's expected. It's "normal." I think you're being naive if you think a Halo game with a female Master Chief would have sold as well to a mass audience as the games did with the gravelly voiced male lead.

MC's sex has nothing to do with the sales of the games. Heck, he could be a girl, just like Samus, and we'd never know it. He never talks or removes his armor, we only have other people's word for it.

You clued into one very important point here. Games have male protagonists because its normal. The male protagonist is an artifact carried over from a bygone age, kept because people, especially businesses, tend to play safe and conservative.


Similarly, a lot of other examples don't do much to disprove the fact that female leads are pretty marginalized. The Metroid Prime games each only sold a bit more than a million copies. Maybe something like two million lifetime, far lower than the ~10 million Call of Duty sells annually (obviously it's one of the most popular franchises on the planet, but the point is Metroid is very small in comparison). Heavenly Sword was pretty much a flop. Mirror's Edge is well-loved, but only sold about two million. That is pretty decent. Bayonetta wouldn't have a sequel if Nintendo didn't step in to publish the second game as an exclusive for the Wii U.[/i]

Again, you're missing the point. Do you honestly think that Metroid Prime would have sold more with a male protagonist? Do you think that Heavenly Sword flopped because it had a female lead? No. These games stand, or fall, on their own merits, and characterization doesn't enter into it.

Marketing, writing, gameplay... These are what make or break the sales of most games. As long as 90+% of games made feature male protagonists, yeah, they'll sell better and probably have the top sellers on their list. Especially since there are still games which feature female leads as nothing but sex objects. But that doesn't mean that having a female lead is even a minor factor in the sales figures of most games. It isn't.

Wings of Liberty featured James Raynor, a male lead. Heart of the Swarm featured Sarah Kerrigan, a female. Compare the numbers and get back to me on how much that change hurt the sales of the expansion.

[Shiny]

My simple man brain is not capable of comprehending why a female protagonist having a partner and expressing affection for them should bother anyone or make anyone feel uncomfortable.

Because introverted fellows who sit in their mom's basement playing video games all day are unable to deal with their only female interaction and love interest (that being one that's completely fictional and virtual) being attracted to someone other than him.

I think the problem only arises for people who clearly cannot take themselves out of the game. I can play anything and be anything in a game because I can take myself out of it. I'm playing a character the way I think the character would be. Many people always try to be themselves when they're playing. To me, that detracts from my own personal enjoyment as I like unpredictability of knowing how the opposite of myself reacts to situations.

[Loony BoB]

MC's sex has nothing to do with the sales of the games. Heck, he could be a girl, just like Samus, and we'd never know it. He never talks or removes his armor, we only have other people's word for it.
Master Chief does talk, and the voice actor is Steve Downes. He is definitely male, this is written fact.

Downes said that his voicing for Master Chief was based entirely on Bungie's written character description provided, which specified a character similar to Clint Eastwood and of few words.

[Quindiana Jones]

To be fair, though, BoB, Master Chief doesn't start talking until immediately into the first game. You could easily think he's a chick for a few minutes.

[Loony BoB]

You could say the same about Tidus despite him talking.

EDIT: Actually, that's probably a bit harsh. Tidus doesn't look that feminine so much as he acts like a two year old. Maybe Cloud in Advent Children, though... or Irvine in FFVIII.

[KentaRawr!]

Why would calling Tidus feminine be harsh? :grover:

[Quindiana Jones]

Cloud's a guy?!

[Skyblade]

MC's sex has nothing to do with the sales of the games. Heck, he could be a girl, just like Samus, and we'd never know it. He never talks or removes his armor, we only have other people's word for it.
Master Chief does talk, and the voice actor is Steve Downes. He is definitely male, this is written fact.

Downes said that his voicing for Master Chief was based entirely on Bungie's written character description provided, which specified a character similar to Clint Eastwood and of few words.

Sorry. Only Halo game I've played is Reach, so I was making an assumption based on what little experience I had. My most humble apologies.

So cross replace Halo with Halo Reach and Master Chief with the Rookie. Happy?

[Loony BoB]

Why would calling Tidus feminine be harsh? :grover:
I don't actually see too much wrong with his appearance suiting his gender when you compare him to other FF characters (Cloud, Irvine, Squall, Zell, etc.)... what wouldn't be harsh is saying he's a stupid and annoying character that deserves every punch to the face that Snow ever got.