Expanded Universe

[Wolf Kanno]

Something I was curious about because this comes up quite a bit in some of my conversations about games, but what does everyone think about the trend of creating expanded universes in video games, by which I mean not simply the linear progression of sequels but when the story expands into side games, novels, short films, and other forms of medium to explain the story and world? Do you feel it enriches the experience, has issues, or something that is absolutely terrible?

Series like .hack, Kingdom Hearts, Xenosaga, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, and more are starting to become a conglomerate of mediums to tell their huge and complicated worlds. Is it worth it? or do you feel it alienates too much? Is a rich story worth all the trouble or do you think its just a cash grab?

[NeoCracker]

I see games like Xenosaga don't really go into stories that don't in some way connect into the main plot, I mean even Pied Pieper was a pre-qual to explain Ziggy's past, and some more information on Voyager and Dmitri. Same with Kingdom Hearts. I think it's actually a very well done technique if done right.

Then there is a game like Suikoden who takes a different approach. I don't think they handled it as well as they could have, but you have Suikoden dropping hints and aspects of mostly unrelated things happening in the world (Or at least loosely related.) Luc is a pretty good example of this, as is Yuber. However, it has a tendancy to put these things in the forefront for periods, only to not explain it in game. Still though, for the most part handles expanding the world past the things that directly involve the main plot very well.

FF VII however? No. Just no. (Well, except Rufus was fucking awesome in AC).

What I'm getting at is if they went in intending to leave things open for expansion it works, but when they try to add things where there wasn't meant to be something it can fail pretty badly.

[Sephiroth]

Final Fantasy VII, Kingdom Hearts, .//hack => yes.


Don't take a character and change their personality.

See: Cloud. Don't take a guy with large, steely determined eyes and packed with muscle in your original game (just look at the game manual's character pages) and turn him into an afraid, skinny, emo pansy.

Cloud is in the other parts exactly how he is normally and all the time. An aspect which is fully shown now that he does no longer confabulate. Not to forget, characters are not supposed to be one-dimensional normally. And Cloud is not. He is also not supposed to be muscular. He looks normal with a bit of muscles.


Plan it from the start.

Don't create a game that is fantastic, amazing, and complete... and then say "Wow, that went better than we thought. Let's make a prequel/sequel." See: VII.

Many people want that.


Don't use time travel.

XIII suffers from this. As soon as you put time travel into a game, it basically puts in too many loopholes. Things won't make enough sense.

They do. Even a paradox has its own logic. And Final Fantasy XIII-2 makes sense from start to end.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

You mean like tying FFX & X-2 into FF7's Universe?

[NeoCracker]

You mean like tying FFX & X-2 into FF7's Universe?

FF VII didn't deserve such a fate. :cry:

[Laddy]

The Baldur's Gate novels are shit.

[Iceglow]

the books relating to Assassins Creed mostly just tell the story of the game, the difference being that the story is told in a more fluid way. For example; where I might spend the next 10 years dicking around in Florence finishing up all assassination contracts, jobs and so forth the book relating to Assassins Creed 2 simply told the story of Ezio Auditore in a more fluid linear path. I've not gotten up to Assassins Creed 3 but I think the book relating to that actually tells a slightly different story, it tells it from the viewpoint of Connor's father, a Templar. I don't mind the Assassins Creed books, sure they're not the greatest literature out there but they're a good time killer on journeys or sitting at my desk in work.

Gears of War on the other hand, tells a lot of back story in books developing characters, in some cases Bernie for example you actually truly get to know and understand the character in the books because for the most part that is where her story begins. What I didn't understand after reading these books was the character of Jace. He doesn't seem to crop up anywhere apart from in Gears Of War 3. And in GoW3 he's treated as if we've known him since game 1. I'm all up for an expanded universe explaining a character origin but genuinely if you're going to introduce a new character in to an established franchise such as Gears at least put them in to one of the books from the expanded universe first. To me Jace feels like a desperate attempt to write more black characters in to the story fast.

So yeah done well, expanded universe is great. I mean don't forget, KOTOR is part of the Star Wars expanded universe, it flows both ways. However badly done expanded universe material needs to go die in a fire.

[Pike]

I love this about TES. 90% of important TES lore happens outside of the games. Seriously. I often forget that there are games attached to it. It's really unique and I love it.

[Wolf Kanno]

Then there is a game like Suikoden who takes a different approach. I don't think they handled it as well as they could have, but you have Suikoden dropping hints and aspects of mostly unrelated things happening in the world (Or at least loosely related.) Luc is a pretty good example of this, as is Yuber. However, it has a tendancy to put these things in the forefront for periods, only to not explain it in game. Still though, for the most part handles expanding the world past the things that directly involve the main plot very well.

I would argue Xenosaga pulled the same stunt as many things like the Realians, the Zohar, the Zohar Modifiers, U-DO, U.R.TV. and Nephilim are all prominent in the first game and get named dropped in the later games, until Episode III came along and had to give the player a rushed explanation for everything. .hack was the same way, the difference is that those games are serials of one story whereas Suikoden is episodic but bring up background details that carry over from game to game. The other difference is that sadly Suikoden pretty much got canceled and is now rebooted into a new series that barely resembles the original.



What I'm getting at is if they went in intending to leave things open for expansion it works, but when they try to add things where there wasn't meant to be something it can fail pretty badly.

What about spreading the series across different mediums and console systems like Kingdom Hearts and Mass Effect? Is it a good idea because it allows the story to expand and travel through different story and gameplay styles? Or would you call it simply a fools errand making you have to jump through hoops to get the full story?

This is kind of the point I made because my friend and I were discussing AC3 and the character of Daniel Cross who is first introduced in a comic book and the main games barely bring him up until the third game introduced him. Xenosaga pulled a similar stunt with Pied Piper being a cell phone title, not to mention the web story only side story that connects Epsiode II and III and explains why Shion joined Scientia. I don't even need to go into Kingdom Hearts and the sheer headache fans who have skipped out on all the non-numbered entries will have going into KHIII. Is there a point where the expanded universe might be a bad idea to tell a complete story since its only designed for the more die hard fans?

[NeoCracker]

It's pretty bullshit I think to separate by console to the extent that KH did it. At the very least if you are going to launch some on handheld, don't release different parts of the same series on competing Handholds exclusively.

I wasn't fond of Pied Piper being a Celphone game either, but I can't really get mad about the side story as that seems like it may have been the only way to tell the story due to all the back room bullshit that seemed to plague Monolith.

[Pumpkin]

I don't mind it, and I think it can be very good and interesting, as long as it isn't necessary in order to continue with the main series.

[Loony BoB]

The Elder Scrolls does this perfectly because it's intended from the start and doesn't commit what I see as cardinal sins.


The Cardinal Sins

Don't take a character and change their personality.
See: Cloud. Don't take a guy with large, steely determined eyes and packed with muscle in your original game (just look at the game manual's character pages) and turn him into an afraid, skinny, emo pansy.

If they had no voice, leave it that way.
Different people will have different thoughts on how a character talks, and when you give them a voice, it screws up that impression and leaves them not liking the change. Again, Cloud commits this sin.

Don't use time travel.
XIII suffers from this. As soon as you put time travel into a game, it basically puts in too many loopholes. Things won't make enough sense.

Plan it from the start.
Don't create a game that is fantastic, amazing, and complete... and then say "Wow, that went better than we thought. Let's make a prequel/sequel." See: VII.

Let everyone know it from the start.
If you do have a sequel planned, don't pull an XIII-2 and have the ending go "BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!" The ending may as well have been a Rick Roll.

Don't rewrite the original game.
We all saw the ending of XIII, and when XIII-2 started, it just crapped all over it.

[Psychotic]

Gears of War did this and pissed me off with it in the final game. Oh look, it's our old pals Sam and Jace! Hello Sam and Jace, we sure have had some wacky adventures with you in various books and we all know your personalities in depth so there's no point bothering to develop them any further! In fact, because we know you so well we're going to spend a lot of the game travelling with you instead of established and beloved characters from Gears 1 and 2! :jess:

I don't have a problem with introducing new characters that our protagonists already know. Look at Tai in Gears 2 - the difference is that he got some personality and some development so we know who he is and what he's all about.

[black orb]

its just a cash grab?
>>> ding ding ding! we have a winner!!..:luca:

No story is worth a videogame, comic, movie, book, etc.

Even the bible..

[The Man]

Don't use time travel.
XIII suffers from this. As soon as you put time travel into a game, it basically puts in too many loopholes. Things won't make enough sense.Chrono Trigger says "Hey smurf you."

I have no opinion on expanding game series to books, TV shows, and other media, but game series being spread out across thirty-seven different consoles can smurf off. I'm glad I never got into the Kingdom Hearts series. I would be pissed off to no end at how many consoles I'd have to play games on.

[Loony BoB]

Don't use time travel.
XIII suffers from this. As soon as you put time travel into a game, it basically puts in too many loopholes. Things won't make enough sense.Chrono Trigger says "Hey smurf you."

I have no opinion on expanding game series to books, TV shows, and other media, but game series being spread out across thirty-seven different consoles can smurf off. I'm glad I never got into the Kingdom Hearts series. I would be pissed off to no end at how many consoles I'd have to play games on.
Chrono has two games, both are based around time travel from the start, both probably have loopholes due to it but despite all that I think Chrono is a bit like Doctor Who - an exception to the rule because it doesn't take itself too seriously and, as mentioned, are based around time travel from the start rather than suddenly introducing it later on in a way that causes people to go "BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE". I haven't played both games, though, so it's hard for me to comment fully on the Chrono series.

[Bolivar]

An interviewer once asked George RR Martin if he's worried the show will ruin the perception of his books and he invoked another author who said no, the books will always be right there on the shelf, written just the same way they always were.

In short, I'm not a fan of expanded universes, I'm just not interested in that sort of thing. FFVII and its story will always remain just the way it was made in 1997 for me, but I do respect a lot of people like the compilation and I'm glad they got a couple more games out of it.

[Iceglow]

The main appearance of Jace in Gears prior to the Gears 3 came from the Graphic Novels they released, he's apparently in the book based on events after Gears 2, prior to Gears 3... but I can't remember his name being mentioned.

The most interesting thing I can think of in regards to expanded universe will be the game Defiance. Defiance is going to be an MMO-RPG 3rd Person shooter style game released pretty soon. What makes me think this is going to be interesting is that there will be a TV show what features certain NPC characters from the game and the game universe. The difference will be that the game will be set in a different location to the TV series.

[kotora]

It becomes a problem when the games assume you've actually read the books. A game's story should be able to stand on its own without requiring the player to read parts of the story from books in order to understand it. Usually with all these spinoffs it's the result of a game becoming popular and everyone trying to cash in on it, without them being pre-planned, which usually results in a huge clusterfuck of a mess. Everyone just goes and makes shit up as they go along. The KH series being a good example.