Tetsuya Takahashi vs. Yasumi Matsuno

[Forsaken Lover]

Tetsuya Takahashi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetsuya_Takahashi#Gameography)
Yasumi Matsuno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasumi_Matsuno)

So of course people know the name Kitase and (shudder) Toriyama and maybe a few others but if you're gonna be a pretentious fop and start talking about which JRPGs have the best-written and deepest stories/characters, you're almost guaranteed to hear a ton of votes from similarly elitist snobs who say "Xeno-something" or "anything by Matsuno".
(Takahashi's name isn't quite as well known but everyone knows his various brainchildren)

Anyway, it got me thinking. I loved FFXII and while that wasn't exclusively done by Matsuno, I've heard it bears several of the hallmarks of his genius. I've also often heard Vagrant Story listed right up there with Xenogears for Best Plot in a JRPG.

And so the topic at hand. How would people here compare the two? Would you say they're about as good each other? Maybe the two excel in different areas and aren't comparable? I am gonna start playing Vagrant Story for the first time in a moment so maybe in a week or two I can offer up some ideas on this but until then I wanted to hear all your guys' takes on this.

[NeoCracker]

Based off the Wiki's you linked, I have to give to Takahashi. In the end his writing is absolutely wonderful and he's credited as doing mostly scenario, story and concept. Even with Xenogears, while we all know my thoughts on it not being a good game, did have a lot of genius to it. The problems of the game seem more not having the time and resources to work on it more so then the talent of it's team.

Matsuno is credited a lot more as Game Design and such though, and dear god are some of his games amazing in that regard. Ogre Battle I would still argue is one of the best SRPG's of all time. More then just about anything that game could stand to gain so much from a remake, giving it the opprotunity to expand on it's cast, and smooth out the rough spots of the gameplay. That's another story entirely though. :p

[Slothy]

Well, the only game I've played where Takahashi did more than graphics (ie: write, direct, etc.) was Xenosaga episode 1. That game was also terrible on almost every level I could imagine. Even the story, which admittedly I found interesting at the time, made up so much of the game that playing it was not only tedious, but applying the term "playing" to experiencing that game may be overly generous.

Meanwhile, Matsuno is responsible for some absolutely wonderful game writing which isn't so over the top and time consuming as to completely ruin the experience, and he's actually capable of making games that don't suck (shut the fuck up MILF).

I'd say who I prefer is a pretty easy call on this one.

[Bolivar]

I've only played Xenogears and maybe a few forgotten minutes of Ep. 3, so going with Matsuno may be a little unfair. A huge differentiating factor between the two is how Matsuno's game systems stand out from, and even challenge, traditional RPG combat. Even his SRPGs have features that set them a part from the rest of the crowd.

I understand that Takahashi writes expansive stories with enormous casts and pervasive themes. So does Matsuno, with the exception that his don't carry the plot holes, suspensions of disbelief and gratuitous shock scenes that I found in Xenogears. FFTactics was just as critical of religious establishments at Xenogears, without having to be so one-dimensional about the whole thing.

I still celebrate Takahashi and Xenogears for the sake of ambitious games. I love idealistic projects, and I think it's tragic that in this day and age, these creations and their creators are criticized for their hubris before the final product even ships, with their faults magnified once they've released. We have too many games this generation overrated for their mass-market accessibility and polish. We need more Takahashis, but thank God for the Matsuno's, who can deliver ambitious ideas and sweeping stories along with some deep and addicting gameplay, with very few flaws to analyze (if any).

[Wolf Kanno]

This is a tough one, because these are two of my favorite game designers, though if I'm allowed to be a pretentious know-it-all snob (cause I guess that's my M.O. around these forums) I would probably say Soraya Saga (Takahashi's wife) deserves more credit for the excellent writing in Takahashi's games. She came up with the main concepts of Xenogears, she was in charge of Ziggy and Jr's story in Xenosaga, so Pied Piper and most Episode 2's plot that wasn't bad was written by her. Best career decision in his life was marrying her. Not that Takahashi is isn't bad either, he's responsible for coming up with the concept of Fei's story and he ultimately took the various plot points that Saga, Kato, and Tanaka had come up with for Gears and intertwined them all together.

The funny coincidence of comparing these two designers is that they both have a bad habit of making overly ambitious projects that get shipped half finished. The code for FFTactics and the interviews from the Vagrant Story team reveal that a ton of ideas never made it into the games like VS being co-op and several story characters were dropped as being playable in FFTactics. Matsuno is certainly better at polish though, so often people are unaware until after the fact that the games were rushed out of development. Takahashi has gotten better over time, he still lacks polish but he's getting better.

Matsuno is largely the better game designer, my only beef with his games is that they often feature more options than they need and they tend to all have some kind of terribly simply exploit that will suck away the challenge. Takahashi on the other hand has grown as a game designer and I honestly feel that while the stories of his games vary from title to title, I honestly feel the game design gets better with every game he develops with the exception of Xenosaga Episode 2.

For me, the guys are pretty different in terms of what I want to see. Takahashi tends to be more spiritual and philisophical with his titles, usually dealing with questions about humanity, religion, and God; whereas Matsuno tends to be more about politics and morality. So for me, you can't really go wrong with either, it just depends on which flavor you are looking for.

[Bolivar]

Judges?

:erm:

I'm sorry, no, that is not a correct answer :D

To run off of Wolf's hipster moment, I might have to take a little wind out of Matsuno's sail and say he owes much to Hiroyuki Ito, who refined the SRPG gameplay of Tactics Ogre into FFT, and created the ADB system out of thin air (and NFL football).

But enough. C'mon, Wolf. Take a side and defend yourself.

[Wolf Kanno]

I can't, its like trying to make me choose between my children, assuming I had them, and also assuming I actually love them. :shifty:

Seriously, we're talking about two of the people who along with Hayao Miyazaki have inspired my own writing and thoughts on story telling and game design. I can't really choose which one is my favorite and even now, they are probably only some of a handful of people whose mere announcement of working on a project will make me jump for glee. So no, I'm not choosing a side on this one.

[Pete for President]

Miyazaki :shifty:

[Slothy]

To run off of Wolf's hipster moment, I might have to take a little wind out of Matsuno's sail and say he owes much to Hiroyuki Ito, who refined the SRPG gameplay of Tactics Ogre into FFT, and created the ADB system out of thin air (and NFL football).

Is it taking the wind out of his sails? Or is it recognizing that the man had the good sense to recognize a talented game designer when he saw one and let him take the reigns in those respects when appropriate. Because even that is more than I could credit Takahashi with from his one game I played. If anything, that's just more proof that Matsuno is a better game developer.

[Wolf Kanno]

Except it was Sakaguchi who partnered them together, not Matsuno. Ito says as much in interviews that he always got stuck with Matsuno because Sakaguchi felt they were both superb designers and liked them working together. So I wouldn't give Matsuno the point.

[Slothy]

That doesn't mean that him stepping back and letting Ito take the reigns more on some titles wasn't because he knew it was a good idea, rather than simply being forced to work together.

[chionos]

Matsuno, hands down as far as I'm concerned.


Pete, if Miyazaki had been a game designer....oh man, I can't even begin to imagine how awesome that could have been. I would love to see something along the lines of a Spirited Away. But Princess Mononoke would have been a fantastic base for a game, too.

[Forsaken Lover]

Why Matsuno hands down?

[Bolivar]

Well if we were just comparing stories settings characters the question would be a lot tougher and if we brought up who they work with, itsuda and soraya saga add a whole new dynamic. But I'm also a huge fan of Sakimoto, Yoshida, and Minagawa and their outside works so my answer would still be the same.

And Wolf, I once read that most parents secretly do love one child the most so cmon! Lets have some points!

[Wolf Kanno]

That doesn't mean that him stepping back and letting Ito take the reigns more on some titles wasn't because he knew it was a good idea, rather than simply being forced to work together.

It still wasn't really his choice though, and letting Ito do his thing because the boss man tells you isn't a sign of good leadership. The fact they work really well together is not the same as a leader who knows the people he wants. I mean he didn't really try to recruit Ito for Vagrant Story or FFTA, instead preferring his old Quest team to do all that. I would still argue that when it comes to Ito, that's more of Sakaguchi's good judgement than Matsuno's. He liked both designers and that's why he kept trying to pair them up, so I would still not give Matsuno the credit since their collaboration were largely the insistence of a third party.

I will say if I was going to tip this one person's favor in terms of the design team, I would go with Takahashi purely on the basis that his games always have the best composers. Maybe it's because I recently purchased the Myth album (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth:_The_Xenogears_Orchestral_Album) but good god do his games tend to have really good soundtracks. I like Hitoshi Sakimoto (though his best work IMHO is a non-Matsuno title (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpSJmyxESxg)) but his OSTs tend to be purely atmospheric for me, whereas regardless of who composing for Takahashi, his OST's really have a strong sense of emotion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDnkucSov4g) and character (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZtcnVFFIO4) to them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EOgnYJJtjo).

I'm still debating who I like more.

[Forsaken Lover]

I wonder what a Takahashi/Matsuno collaboration would be like. You got Takahashi for the grand vision element that sets the Xeno games apart but Matsuno maybe grounds him a bit and makes the characters/dialogue more human and relatable.

I think that's more or less what Soraya Saga did but she maybe let her husband run a littel too wild and didn't restrain him enough.