Grudge Match - Terra vs. Sabin

[Flying Mullet]

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In the finale of the anything goes Final Fantasy VI Royale Rumble in Miranda, Terra, Sabin, Shadow, Umaro and Cyan entered the cage match ready to brawl. However, it became apparent very quickly that Cyan and Umaro were outclassed in this elite group of fighters. Cyan's age ended up being his demise as he couldn't react in time to Umaro tossing him around the cage like a rag-doll, being finished by a rather brutal flying elbow by esper-form Terra. Umaro was the next to drop, his slow movements no match for Shadow, who used his manager, Interceptor, to distract Umaro, then landed a quick series of sucker punches in quick succession to finish Umaro. With three remaining contenders standing and all dangerous, Sabin and Terra decided to team up against Shadow, with Terra using her flying Esper form to surprise Shadow by flying him into the air and Sabin finishing the job with his now legendary move, the Bum Rush. As an exhausted Esper Terra landed and turned back into human form, Sabin pulled the largest surprise upset of the evening, suplexing the entire cage with Terra still in it, demolishing the cage and any with it any hopes of Terra winning.

Speaking with Terra after the fight, she was more than irate, "An entire cage? That's a coward's move. he wasn't man enough to take me in the cage so he ran away and hid behind that suplex of his. It just goes to show you that he's a coward and a cheat!"

Sabin had nothing nice to say about Terra's performance as well, "Must be nice to fly around and avoid your competition. This is a cage match, not Cirque du Soleil."

The tensions between these two have been building ever since the end of that fateful Royal Rumble and it looks like its set to explode tonight at the Vector Arena. You've got front row seats and hope you're ready for the rematch that's got EoFF abuzz!

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Grudge Match Rules The match takes place in a covered cage 10 feet tall
No suplexing the cage

[Laddy]

Terra morphs. Casts tons of spells. Terra wins.

[blackmage_nuke]

Reflect or mute will deal with that

Also in the time it takes to morph Sabin will pummel her, not to mention the time it takes to cast the first spell. And dont bring up the "its not about game mechanics" arguement. It's very clear that casting spells TAKES TIME. You very clearly see them chanting. You cant just fart out an Ultima at will

[DownDiagonalLeftA]

We're gonna act like Terra wasn't getting whooped by Vargas in a brawl when she had the help of Locke AND Edgar until Sabin came in and made Vargas his bitch?

We're gonna act like Terra didn't get whooped by Phunbaba until Sabin (while Celes cheered on the sidelines) came through and beat the Fenrir magicite out of him? And don't lie and try to say you skipped getting Sabin before fighting Phunbaba.

We're gonna act like Sabin didn't have Kefka running in the military camp? Kefka was willing to burn down an entire castle to confront Terra, but didn't want to have to duke it out with Sabin?


We're gonna act like when Terra said Sabin looked like a bodybuilder who strayed too far from his gym, she didn't really mean "damn, I hope I never have to fight in a cage match with him".

SMURF OUTTA HERE.

[The Man]

We're gonna act like Terra was even remotely close to being at the height of her powers at the time of the Vargas duel?

We're gonna act like Terra didn't have a pretty clear case of PTSD at the time the first Phunbaba fight occurred and didn't single-handedly defeat him on the second go-round, becoming even more powerful afterwards?

We're gonna act like Kefka is even remotely sane and his perception of threats is even remotely credible?

We're gonna act like Terra isn't the one noted to have blown through fifty Imperial soldiers at a point long before she reached her peak combat prowess?

Not to mention Terra has access to better weapons than Sabin and can morph to double her damage and halve the amount of damage she'll take from Blitzes (except for Pummel and Suplex) so even if we're going to pretend magic isn't going to be an advantage, she's still no slouch in physical combat. Oh, and, as the OP mentions, she can fly. Which kind of puts a crimp in Sabin's hopes of suplexing her, unless the Vector Arena has a roof.


Anyway, here's a simple rundown of how the match would actually go:

* Terra strikes with Ultima Weapon
* Match ends

[DownDiagonalLeftA]

We're gonna act like Terra was even remotely close to being at the height of her powers at the time of the Vargas duel?

We're gonna act like Terra didn't have a pretty clear case of PTSD at the time the first Phunbaba fight occurred and didn't single-handedly defeat him on the second go-round, becoming even more powerful afterwards?

We're gonna act like Kefka is even remotely sane and his perception of threats is even remotely credible?

We're gonna act like Terra isn't the one noted to have blown through fifty Imperial soldiers at a point long before she reached her peak combat prowess?

Not to mention Terra has access to better weapons than Sabin and can morph to double her damage and halve the amount of damage she'll take from Blitzes (except for Pummel and Suplex) so even if we're going to pretend magic isn't going to be an advantage, she's still no slouch in physical combat. Oh, and, as the OP mentions, she can fly. Which kind of puts a crimp in Sabin's hopes of suplexing her, unless the Vector Arena has a roof.


Anyway, here's a simple rundown of how the match would actually go:

* Terra strikes with Ultima Weapon
* Match ends

1) At that point in the game, she was already strong enough to beat 50 imperial soldiers, yet couldn't beat Vargas with help? Makes me wonder the caliber of these "soldiers" she fried. Not too mention Sabin wasn't at the peak of his power at that point either.

2) Terra does not "single handedly" defeat Phunbaba. That didn't happen.

3) Yes.

4) See number 1.

5) Pretty sure the original post says the match will take place in a covered 10 foot tall cage, so yes it has a roof, and no flying isn't an advantage.

6) As Sabin is faster, he'd get the jump on her before she ever had the chance to morph or cast a spell.

...and who says she gets Atma weapon? Would sure be hypocritical if she called Sabin a coward like the OP said, and then turned around and used the strongest weapon in the world on him. If she could even hit him with it.

[The Man]

1. As I pointed out in the previous thread, the extent of damage Vargas does to Terra is blowing her out of the field of combat. She is completely unharmed. This does not speak particularly highly of his power. It is not so much that Terra is incapable of defeating Vargas as that the AI won't let her (and if memory serves, if she is levelled up enough at that point in the game, which is admittedly highly unlikely due to the fact that the Lethe river exploit occurs after that fight, she actually can).

The game notes that the soldiers she fries are "fifty of the Empire's best soldiers", for whatever that's worth. The Imperial soldiers the party fights aren't particularly strong, but they're also mostly grunts, so they can't really be taken as indicative of the strength of the Empire's best soldiers.

2. Humbaba blows two party members away, using exactly the kind of attack Vargas uses. This can include Sabin if he is included in the party. Guess who he can't blow away? Terra.

3. Then you are disregarding basically all of Kefka's characterisation. Not to mention that Kefka clearly runs away so he can poison Doma, not because he is afraid of the party.

5. Right, I missed that somehow.

6. >implying that speed stats mean a goddamn thing in a cage match, or that a four-point speed difference can't have been made up through Esper stat bonuses. In an actual cage match Terra would slice the Ultima Weapon through him while he was trying to suplex her. And how is it hypocritical to play to one's strengths? Terra has swordsmanship training. Sabin does not. That leaves him unable to wield the strongest weapons of the game. If we're evaluating characters for their actual strengths in combat, not allowing them to play to their strengths is stupid.

[The Man]

A few other things:

Reflect, noted above, doesn't block Ultima and Meteor. Terra can also cast Reflect on herself and bounce other spells off herself, though with Ultima and Meteor there is basically no need to do this.
Mute doesn't make a difference if Sabin doesn't have time to cast it, not to mention it is easily dispelled with items. And are we really going to pretend that mute is likely to be his first move when he's a lot more likely to go on the offensive with Blitzes (which also take time to perform, I might add)?
The likelihood that Terra wouldn't morph before the match even starts is pretty slim. There is nothing in the rules suggesting she can't do this.

[Greatermaximus]

The general consensus is Terra's morph is what gives her the edge though temporary.

My signature has Terra's close max defense. Sabin, without a relic slot, can not use heavy armor from what I can remember. If we remove magic from both of them and the 9999 hp cap, Terra would win.

The exception is they had hp that's very high. Say into the millions and you gave them both a dirk. Sabin's Blitz might beat out the fight command while Terra's morph would end at some point.

I'd say Terra is stronger but Sabin can endure longer. It depends on the situation. But I might as well vote out of bias. I'm also curious what the poll accomplishes besides having fun? ;)

[Slothy]

Sabin suplexed a train. Your opinions are invalid.

[Loony BoB]

Still gonna treat this as a proper cage match and not a swords and magic match. Sabin still wins.

If it's a swords and magic match, there is no point whatsoever in having a cage in the first place.

Sabin doesn't suplex the cage. Sabin suplexes Terra. Bam.

EDIT: I also find the suggestion that Terra was irate after the match completely unrealistic as she would have been too busy feeling sorry for herself. She's clearly acting up for the cameras. Just can't put that kind of thing on, it showed. Immediately after the cameras switched off, people used their phones to capture Terra running away and crying for Mummy.

[blackmage_nuke]

Terra running away and crying for Mummy.

Wow, talk about insensitive Loony BoB...her mother is dead

[NeoCracker]

Alright The Man, you wanna argue mechanics? You can easilly get Sabin hitting max damage with Bum Rush. You can easily get Terra hitting max with any spell in the game. The only thing that matters in a fight now is speed, which Sabin wins on.

And Terra, in terms of mechanics, cannot morph before a fight, not that it matters. In a mechanics argument, she can still hit for max. Once again, the fight hinges soley on who goes first. This is why a mechanics argument is dumb. :p

Dropping Mechanics, this depends solely on the rules of the cage match. If we go bob's no magic route, of course Sabin wins it hands down. With Magic, the confines of the Cage does lend it'self to Sabin. He is able to easily climb at high speeds, so I see him pulling a Vega and still being able to strike Terra mid-air without much hassle. Not to mention Aura Bolt and Windslash, possibly Fire Dance, all lend him to being able to fight her.

Again, being confined to a cage is at his advantage as Terra's Arial mobility is hindered do to space issues. Still though, Terra's magic prowess is intense, seemingly at full force she is able to level houses when unrestrained. (Of course, it's hard to tell if her power is as destructive when under control, as the game doesn't go into it. I would imagine the unrestrained and out of countrol might is stronger, as the game only really depicts Espers as really scary durring such a state.)

Sabin having martial training that seems far superior to Terra's means he's not likely to be missing much, if at all. Terra has excessive magical force behind her, and can pretty much carpet bomb the guy. In terms of damage output, I think Terra is shown to be higher, but at the same time Sabin's fortitude is intense, definately more so then Terra.

So, ignoring Mechanics and just focusing on the story and character, it comes down to who can withstand the punishment longer. So, in the confines of the cage, I give this one to Sabin.

Were the cage not a factor, however, I don't think it's much a contest, Terra would win it.

[Loony BoB]

To be fair, Neo, have you seen Sabin jump around during his attacks? Guy has some leap on him. ;)



Terra running away and crying for Mummy.

Wow, talk about insensitive Loony BoB...her mother is dead
So she'll cry even harder.

[Flying Mullet]

And she basically carries her father's urn around. Definitely a chick with issues.
She's probably a firecracker in the sack.

[Jiro]

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/184/d/2/Sabin_Rene_Figaro_by_DaiKonRan1618.jpg

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/117/d/3/FFVI_Sabin_by_tiggerfactory.png

http://www.finalfantasy500.com/500/done/sabin_kal.jpg

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs10/150/i/2006/116/b/f/Sabin_Critical_Hit___FF6_by_AnasolSuki.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/TPr9fwvGruI/AAAAAAAABII/qw1rbglrAvQ/s1600/Sabin%2BFigaro.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8e7511b74394cb98f4546e6607ded8bb/tumblr_mfc2beHOXi1rw9x4so1_r1_500.png

[The Man]

The only thing that matters in a fight now is speed, which Sabin wins on.Are we really going to suggest that speed stats matter in a grudge match? I already addressed this above. Besides the difference between their speed is only 4 points (as compared to the 11-point difference between their magic power) and speed stats can be, and probably have been, modified with espers. It is trivial to make up a 4-point speed difference. A 11-point magic power difference is a bit more difficult to make up.

Furthermore, even if we assume speed stats do matter, we also have to assume the amount of time attacks take to pull off matters too. Even assuming a small difference in speed, Terra can swing the Ultima Weapon and she will still be finished attacking before Sabin can pull off one of his blitzes. The moment she swings the Ultima Weapon this thing is over. It is unblockable, and assuming the characters are anywhere near their peak prowess it will deal 9,999 damage. It doesn't matter what Sabin is in the middle of doing. He will be knocked out instantly.

The worst that Terra can suffer is that this ends up as a draw, with each knocking the other out at the same time.

[NeoCracker]

The only thing that matters in a fight now is speed, which Sabin wins on.Are we really going to suggest that speed stats matter in a grudge match? I already addressed this above. Besides the difference between their speed is only 4 points (as compared to the 11-point difference between their magic power) and speed stats can be, and probably have been, modified with espers. It is trivial to make up a 4-point speed difference. A 11-point magic power difference is a bit more difficult to make up.

Furthermore, even if we assume speed stats do matter, we also have to assume the amount of time attacks take to pull off matters too. Even assuming a small difference in speed, Terra can swing the Ultima Weapon and she will still be finished attacking before Sabin can pull off one of his blitzes. The moment she swings the Ultima Weapon this thing is over. It is unblockable, and assuming the characters are anywhere near their peak prowess it will deal 9,999 damage. It doesn't matter what Sabin is in the middle of doing. He will be knocked out instantly.

The worst that Terra can suffer is that this ends up as a draw, with each knocking the other out at the same time.

Every character in the game is able to do a max damage physical attack though.

And Sabin doesn't need to make up that full difference to hit for max. Say what you will, it is going to come down to who hits first if you start arguing stats and esper bonus's.

[The Man]

Terra is able to hit for max with the Ultima Weapon in a direct physical attack way before Sabin is, though (and even earlier if you count Morph). Obviously if they're both level 99 though then it pretty much comes down to who hits first.

[NeoCracker]

You know, I was looking up what the earliest level you can hit max damage with Terra was, just to see what kind of HP she would have at the time. Depending, Sabin wouldn't even need to hit for max. Without any tweaking or focusing, Bum Rush can easilly hit for 5K+ when you get it.

Then I remembered this is a god damn cage match. There are no mechanics that will come into play here. FF VI has no mechanics that come into play in the realm of a cage. FF VI wasn't a game designed to pit player against player. No amount of arguing mechanics will make any sense because of this.

[The Man]

The thing is, certainly blitzes can hit for max damage pretty early too, but they take more time to execute than a simple physical attack, so by the time Sabin was done executing one of his blitzes, Terra would already have been able to hit him with the Ultima Weapon. And let's be face it, it's a lot harder to defend against what is essentially a smurfing lightsaber than it is to defend against swords and claws and trout. Terra can equip some pretty good armour to defend against a lot of that, but Ultima Weapon ignores physical defences.

But yeah, the problem is game mechanics don't really apply to player-to-player combat in any meaningful way, so it's kind of hard to predict for certain how a match like this would actually go. I'm still pretty sure Terra would win though, unless weapons and magic were banned (which is obviously a set of rules that favours Sabin).

[Roogle]

It is clear to me that Terra is the more powerful of the two given that the entire first part of the story revolves around her being sought and used by two different factions in a war. Obviously, Sabin might be physically stronger, but there is more to assessing power than just physical strength.

[NeoCracker]

It is clear to me that Terra is the more powerful of the two given that the entire first part of the story revolves around her being sought and used by two different factions in a war. Obviously, Sabin might be physically stronger, but there is more to assessing power than just physical strength.

True, but also see the big reasons why they want Terra. It's for more then her strength, they want her to awaken the other Espers for them, something they are unable to do. Both sides don't want her so much for her power, but the power she can unlock for them.

To go back to the Vargas example earlier, Sabin could whithstand his attacks while the rest could not. Now, before the Man mentions his defense that 'they were just blown out of battle, not actually beaten' realize what that means. It means that they were just pushed back and went, you know what? Sabin's got this. Let's just stand around like a bunch of dicks while he handles this for us.

It's clear that Sabin is far more durable, and is shown constantly as such.

Outside of the cage, I agree with you that Terra can win. The advantage is with her. But in the cage, the gimping of her flight ends up being her demise.

[Jowy]

That was the insurance vote.

[The Man]

It is clear to me that Terra is the more powerful of the two given that the entire first part of the story revolves around her being sought and used by two different factions in a war. Obviously, Sabin might be physically stronger, but there is more to assessing power than just physical strength.

True, but also see the big reasons why they want Terra. It's for more then her strength, they want her to awaken the other Espers for them, something they are unable to do. Both sides don't want her so much for her power, but the power she can unlock for them.The fact that she can awaken espers is a significant strength in itself. However, this obviously isn't the only reason both sides want her power. Again, fried fifty of the Empire's best soldiers in a few minutes.


To go back to the Vargas example earlier, Sabin could whithstand his attacks while the rest could not. Now, before the Man mentions his defense that 'they were just blown out of battle, not actually beaten' realize what that means. It means that they were just pushed back and went, you know what? Sabin's got this. Let's just stand around like a bunch of dicks while he handles this for us. More that Sabin defeats him almost instantly due to the way the mechanics of the battle are set up. The battle can't possibly last more than a minute due to the fact that Vargas easily casts Condemned on the party, and it's easily possible for the party to have been blown away further than they can travel in a minute (assuming we consider the steps taken on the screen to take far more time than they are depicted as taking, which is likely since they can travel the entire length of a town in a step on the world map). And, again, Terra is not at peak form at that battle. As I have already mentioned, if Sabin is present at the Humbaba battle, he can easily get blown away just as Terra gets blown away, while Terra, in her esper form, cannot get blown away at the same battle. So if we're going to go by story-based battles, Terra shows greater prowess later in the game, which is presumably when these matches would be taking place.


It's clear that Sabin is far more durable, and is shown constantly as such.It's not clear at all.

[Quindiana Jones]

Terra casts Ultima. Both get knocked out. Terra gets disqualified for being a fucking idiot. Sabin wins.

[The Man]

Ultima doesn't hit the party? Terra would only get knocked out if she cast something like Meltdown (unless she was wearing the flame shield or something).

[NeoCracker]

It is clear to me that Terra is the more powerful of the two given that the entire first part of the story revolves around her being sought and used by two different factions in a war. Obviously, Sabin might be physically stronger, but there is more to assessing power than just physical strength.

True, but also see the big reasons why they want Terra. It's for more then her strength, they want her to awaken the other Espers for them, something they are unable to do. Both sides don't want her so much for her power, but the power she can unlock for them.The fact that she can awaken espers is a significant strength in itself. However, this obviously isn't the only reason both sides want her power. Again, fried fifty of the Empire's best soldiers in a few minutes.


To go back to the Vargas example earlier, Sabin could whithstand his attacks while the rest could not. Now, before the Man mentions his defense that 'they were just blown out of battle, not actually beaten' realize what that means. It means that they were just pushed back and went, you know what? Sabin's got this. Let's just stand around like a bunch of dicks while he handles this for us. More that Sabin defeats him almost instantly due to the way the mechanics of the battle are set up. The battle can't possibly last more than a minute due to the fact that Vargas easily casts Condemned on the party, and it's easily possible for the party to have been blown away further than they can travel in a minute (assuming we consider the steps taken on the screen to take far more time than they are depicted as taking, which is likely since they can travel the entire length of a town in a step on the world map). And, again, Terra is not at peak form at that battle. As I have already mentioned, if Sabin is present at the Humbaba battle, he can easily get blown away just as Terra gets blown away, while Terra, in her esper form, cannot get blown away at the same battle. So if we're going to go by story-based battles, Terra shows greater prowess later in the game, which is presumably when these matches would be taking place.


It's clear that Sabin is far more durable, and is shown constantly as such.It's not clear at all.

Except for every time the game brings up his durability.

Even at the very end you see them showing off his strength during the escape. Him and Shaodw fighting in the Imperial Camp, defeating several troops on their way trough. Really, most your cast could believably, story wise, defeat fifty imperial soldiers even prior to unlocking the power of espers.

And agian in response to the Vargas fight, if you did not already know the Pummel command, it takes a while before it tells you the input, so as intended the fight isn't immediately over. Also, you can't say that Sabin was at his peak at that point either. They both went through a lot and grew a lot after this.

Sabin's durability and strength is showcased more then Terra's because they intended for him to be shown as the more durable one. Terra was showcased as the half esper magical power house.

Furthermore, the group you fight Punbaba with is shown to at least be able to stand up to him, making him retreat the first time. The second fight, it's not even Terra alone who fights him, and it won't always be Sabin blown away. If that was meant to show anything in battle, it was that Punbaba was still tough enough to be able to beat you, at which point Terra came to your aide to help you fight. The Punbaba fight never ends up being Terra Vs. Punbaba one on one.

This is in stark contrast to Sabin always being the one to withstand Vargas, and the others always being knocked out. WHen bringing up examples like this, one always needs to look at the intend behind why these things were done.

[The Man]

Even at the very end you see them showing off his strength during the escape. Him and Shaodw fighting in the Imperial Camp, defeating several troops on their way trough. Really, most your cast could believably, story wise, defeat fifty imperial soldiers even prior to unlocking the power of espers. That's assuming in-game animations of fights are comparable to the way fights play out in real time, which is not necessarily the case. In-universe the number of soldiers Terra was able to defeat in such a short time is treated as a huge deal, so it's quite possible that real time is different from in-game time.


And agian in response to the Vargas fight, if you did not already know the Pummel command, it takes a while before it tells you the input, so as intended the fight isn't immediately over. Also, you can't say that Sabin was at his peak at that point either. They both went through a lot and grew a lot after this. "As intended"? That's only the first time you play the game. Besides, as I said, you're the one assuming the party would even have been capable of getting back into the region of the fight within sixty seconds. If we assume that in-game steps are as large as they appear to be, then the direction they're depicted as having been blown could easily have been more time than they could traverse in such a period.


Sabin's durability and strength is showcased more then Terra's because they intended for him to be shown as the more durable one. Terra was showcased as the half esper magical power house. You're the one saying that durability means anything in a fight like this. This doesn't really do anything to counteract anything I've been saying. I'm the one saying that all Terra has to do is swing the Ultima Weapon once.


Furthermore, the group you fight Punbaba with is shown to at least be able to stand up to him, making him retreat the first time. The second fight, it's not even Terra alone who fights him, and it won't always be Sabin blown away. If that was meant to show anything in battle, it was that Punbaba was still tough enough to be able to beat you, at which point Terra came to your aide to help you fight. The Punbaba fight never ends up being Terra Vs. Punbaba one on one. It can be Terra alone who fights him if you only bring two party members, and even if you bring Sabin and two other party members there is a two in three chance that he will be blown away. Furthermore, the fight pretty clearly is intended to show how powerful Humbaba is, and what a powerhouse Terra becomes at her peak.

[Loony BoB]

Too much serious.

[NeoCracker]

Even at the very end you see them showing off his strength during the escape. Him and Shaodw fighting in the Imperial Camp, defeating several troops on their way trough. Really, most your cast could believably, story wise, defeat fifty imperial soldiers even prior to unlocking the power of espers. That's assuming in-game animations of fights are comparable to the way fights play out in real time, which is not necessarily the case. In-universe the number of soldiers Terra was able to defeat in such a short time is treated as a huge deal, so it's quite possible that real time is different from in-game time.

No one said Terra's power wasn't a bid deal.



And agian in response to the Vargas fight, if you did not already know the Pummel command, it takes a while before it tells you the input, so as intended the fight isn't immediately over. Also, you can't say that Sabin was at his peak at that point either. They both went through a lot and grew a lot after this. "As intended"? That's only the first time you play the game.

So we are to assume that different play throughs of the game the story changes. Gotcha. :p

Besides, as I said, you're the one assuming the party would even have been capable of getting back into the region of the fight within sixty seconds. If we assume that in-game steps are as large as they appear to be, then the direction they're depicted as having been blown could easily have been more time than they could traverse in such a period.

Either way, Sabin whithstood an attack they could not. If they could get back fast or not is entirely irrelevant. If we say the fight was really over fast, that means Sabin beat Vargas in no time flat. If it's a longer time then that, Vargas's attack had to be immense to blow them back that far. That says even more for Sabin's endurance and strength.




Sabin's durability and strength is showcased more then Terra's because they intended for him to be shown as the more durable one. Terra was showcased as the half esper magical power house. You're the one saying that durability means anything in a fight like this. This doesn't really do anything to counteract anything I've been saying. I'm the one saying that all Terra has to do is swing the Ultima Weapon once.

Alright, fine, lets keep playing mechanics game. Merit Award, Ultima weapon, Hermes Sandles (Depending on which version you are playing. Sabin has superior Speed, HP, and strength. He will hit first, and even if it's not enough to kill Terra, no way will her Ultima weapon be doing enough damage to still kill Sabin (Who, mind you, due to his Vigor/strength can hit for Max damage with Ultima weapon before Terra). And even if you say Terra can make up for that with Esper bonus's, Sabin is growing his stats too. No way will she land the first hit.



Furthermore, the group you fight Punbaba with is shown to at least be able to stand up to him, making him retreat the first time. The second fight, it's not even Terra alone who fights him, and it won't always be Sabin blown away. If that was meant to show anything in battle, it was that Punbaba was still tough enough to be able to beat you, at which point Terra came to your aide to help you fight. The Punbaba fight never ends up being Terra Vs. Punbaba one on one. It can be Terra alone who fights him if you only bring two party members, and even if you bring Sabin and two other party members there is a two in three chance that he will be blown away. Furthermore, the fight pretty clearly is intended to show how powerful Humbaba is, and what a powerhouse Terra becomes at her peak.

The game never intends for you to gimp yourself to go into a fight. Yes, Punbaba is shown to be strong, but just strong enough that he can in fact beat your party, though the first fight sets up your party can in fact win. Were the fight intended to be just Terra Vs. Punbaba, they could have done the same thing they did with Vargas and have everyone blown away. They made the conscious choice not too.

That scene was to show Terra regaining the will to fight, and come in to help the party win, not solo Humbaba.




Too much serious

It happens. :p

Edit: Quick note, Ultima weapon would depend on the version of the game you are playing if Merit Award would allow it.

[The Man]

Either way, Sabin whithstood an attack they could not.And later, Terra withstands an attack that Sabin very often doesn't withstand. And I could say exactly the same about his lack of participation in the fight after that point - assuming the attack isn't so powerful that he's blown clear beyond where he could participate in it again, he says "Ah, Terra's got this". So, again, the argument you're making could easily be thrown back on Sabin.


Alright, fine, lets keep playing mechanics game. Merit Award, Ultima weapon, Hermes Sandles (Depending on which version you are playing. Sabin has superior Speed, HP, and strength. He will hit first, and even if it's not enough to kill Terra, no way will her Ultima weapon be doing enough damage to still kill Sabin (Who, mind you, due to his Vigor/strength can hit for Max damage with Ultima weapon before Terra). And even if you say Terra can make up for that with Esper bonus's, Sabin is growing his stats too. No way will she land the first hit. There is an easy way she will land the first hit, since their speed stats are only four points different to begin with, and that is a trivially easy stat to make up, especially since Terra is likely to be in the party for a lot of the more advanced areas of the game after the party gains the Odin esper, where her ability to multi-cast powerful spells will make her a valuable asset. Let's keep in mind that Sabin's biggest strength in his natural form is Blitz, which caps out at 9999 damage (although he does have some Blitzes that target multiple enemies, but against enemies that are immune to fire and wind damage, these are useless); Terra, by contrast, can multi-cast chains of spells that can wipe out enemies with more than 9999 HP with ease, and simply Osmose magic when she runs out. Obviously Sabin can do this too but his natural magic power is 11 points below Terra's, so he has a lot of ground to make up. Which isn't to say it's worthless to raise his magic power, since most of his Blitzes are dependent upon his magic power, but the player is bound to be raising Terra's magic power too.

Obviously if you want to throw Merit Award on to gimp the balance of the fight then that's going to throw the fight in Sabin's direction, but I don't know why anyone would waste a relic slot with one of those when they could Genji+Offering the most powerful weapons on one character to get the most use out of them. It's pretty obvious that when playing to the characters' own innate strengths Terra has a very realistic shot of winning, and by the time you can get the Offering Terra will be hitting for close enough to max damage with Ultima Weapon+Genji that it won't be worth wasting a relic slot with Merit Award on another character, unless you're running a low-level game.

Further, Terra can easily hit for peak damage with simple attacks earlier than Sabin, if she is morphed. If you're going to throw that many advantages to Sabin while disregarding Terra's obvious strengths, that makes it pretty obvious that you're trying to throw the fight towards Sabin.


The game never intends for you to gimp yourself to go into a fight. Yes, Punbaba is shown to be strong, but just strong enough that he can in fact beat your party, though the first fight sets up your party can in fact win. Were the fight intended to be just Terra Vs. Punbaba, they could have done the same thing they did with Vargas and have everyone blown away. They made the conscious choice not too.

That scene was to show Terra regaining the will to fight, and come in to help the party win, not solo Humbaba. Regardless, it's also clearly intended to show how much stronger Humbaba is than the other party members, and the fact that Terra can't get blown away is pretty clearly intended to show her increased strength at her peak form (which she cannot reach until this fight - she gains the ability to Morph far more frequently after this fight).

Couple other things that occurred to me: Cosmos has the ability to draw any champion from the FFVI universe she wants to. Guess which one she chooses? Also, Dissidia strikes me as pretty much the FF universe's equivalent of a cage match, and Terra pretty obviously fares quite well for herself.

Not that I've actually played it, and I hear Terra is horribly OOC for a large portion of it, but regardless, I think it does reveal quite a bit about what the FF writers think of the strengths of their own characters.

[Karifean]

Battle commences. Sabin gets first turn. Sabin uses Bum Rush. Battle ends. I don't see why this is so difficult.

[Loony BoB]

Oh, look, Sabin won again. By an even bigger margin now that he didn't have to deal with the other guys in the fight. :aimsun:

[dandy da oak]

I understand that Terra is powerful and pro-women and all, but Sabin is designed for this very hypothetical!

[Raistlin]

Damn, I missed this finale. At least the right person (Sabin) won, as badass as Terra is generally.

[NeoCracker]

Either way, Sabin whithstood an attack they could not.And later, Terra withstands an attack that Sabin very often doesn't withstand. And I could say exactly the same about his lack of participation in the fight after that point - assuming the attack isn't so powerful that he's blown clear beyond where he could participate in it again, he says "Ah, Terra's got this". So, again, the argument you're making could easily be thrown back on Sabin.


Alright, fine, lets keep playing mechanics game. Merit Award, Ultima weapon, Hermes Sandles (Depending on which version you are playing. Sabin has superior Speed, HP, and strength. He will hit first, and even if it's not enough to kill Terra, no way will her Ultima weapon be doing enough damage to still kill Sabin (Who, mind you, due to his Vigor/strength can hit for Max damage with Ultima weapon before Terra). And even if you say Terra can make up for that with Esper bonus's, Sabin is growing his stats too. No way will she land the first hit. There is an easy way she will land the first hit, since their speed stats are only four points different to begin with, and that is a trivially easy stat to make up, especially since Terra is likely to be in the party for a lot of the more advanced areas of the game after the party gains the Odin esper, where her ability to multi-cast powerful spells will make her a valuable asset. Let's keep in mind that Sabin's biggest strength in his natural form is Blitz, which caps out at 9999 damage (although he does have some Blitzes that target multiple enemies, but against enemies that are immune to fire and wind damage, these are useless); Terra, by contrast, can multi-cast chains of spells that can wipe out enemies with more than 9999 HP with ease, and simply Osmose magic when she runs out. Obviously Sabin can do this too but his natural magic power is 11 points below Terra's, so he has a lot of ground to make up. Which isn't to say it's worthless to raise his magic power, since most of his Blitzes are dependent upon his magic power, but the player is bound to be raising Terra's magic power too.

Obviously if you want to throw Merit Award on to gimp the balance of the fight then that's going to throw the fight in Sabin's direction, but I don't know why anyone would waste a relic slot with one of those when they could Genji+Offering the most powerful weapons on one character to get the most use out of them. It's pretty obvious that when playing to the characters' own innate strengths Terra has a very realistic shot of winning, and by the time you can get the Offering Terra will be hitting for close enough to max damage with Ultima Weapon+Genji that it won't be worth wasting a relic slot with Merit Award on another character, unless you're running a low-level game.

Further, Terra can easily hit for peak damage with simple attacks earlier than Sabin, if she is morphed. If you're going to throw that many advantages to Sabin while disregarding Terra's obvious strengths, that makes it pretty obvious that you're trying to throw the fight towards Sabin.

Alright, rather then respond to every point here, I'm just going to say this (I will say, I was a bit flippant with my arugments there anyway. :p). Locke can, before anyone else, hit for max damage, and is easily the games fastest character. He'll be one shotting Terra before there is ever a need for max damage to be taken into account.

Going by in game mechanics, without tossing around weird relics and accessories, your arguments are going to put Locke as the winner every time. Just let that sit for a while.



The game never intends for you to gimp yourself to go into a fight. Yes, Punbaba is shown to be strong, but just strong enough that he can in fact beat your party, though the first fight sets up your party can in fact win. Were the fight intended to be just Terra Vs. Punbaba, they could have done the same thing they did with Vargas and have everyone blown away. They made the conscious choice not too.

That scene was to show Terra regaining the will to fight, and come in to help the party win, not solo Humbaba. Regardless, it's also clearly intended to show how much stronger Humbaba is than the other party members, and the fact that Terra can't get blown away is pretty clearly intended to show her increased strength at her peak form (which she cannot reach until this fight - she gains the ability to Morph far more frequently after this fight).

Couple other things that occurred to me: Cosmos has the ability to draw any champion from the FFVI universe she wants to. Guess which one she chooses? Also, Dissidia strikes me as pretty much the FF universe's equivalent of a cage match, and Terra pretty obviously fares quite well for herself.

Not that I've actually played it, and I hear Terra is horribly OOC for a large portion of it, but regardless, I think it does reveal quite a bit about what the FF writers think of the strengths of their own characters.

Again I point out your party forced Punbaba to retreat the first time without the aide of Terra. He wasn't an obstical that was insurmountable without Terra, he was someone that was a match for your Party, and Terra jumping in pushed things in your favor. Definately she is powerful here, no doubt. But not some towering god amongst the rest of your party.

And Dissidia's cast was based off main characters, and in FF VI Terra is the closest thing to that in the game. In addition, she has the closest link to Kefka, the Villain, so in that regard she also made more sense. Hell, if you look at some of the old interviews it was Kain they wanted from FF IV, even though Cecil is pretty clearly the strongest in that game. The reason they went with Cecil over Kain was the connection to the villain, and him being the main character. Dissidia's choices were clearly not made with regards to power in mind. :p

Also, not once in this argument have you even bothered taking into consideration the fact this is a cage match. I've already stated, mind you, outside of the confines of the cage, Terra would win it. :p