RPG's lack the Franchise it needs....

[NeoCracker]

Okay, this thread is inspired by the Square and Capcom discussion with Wolf and Haste in the SE forum, and in my head I was going 'I need to drop a Breath of Fire referance here'. And then something occurred to me after that thought. Even though my first and most consistant RPG series from the SNES and PS1 era had been Final Fantasy, I feel that if it died right now, or even if the PS2 generation didn't happen, it wouldn't really matter, at least not to me.

Yet I sit here thinking about Breath of Fire. The world of RPG's really seems to be missing something without a new Breath of Fire game. We have the Xeno Crew creating this epic and god scaled stories spanning the galaxies, and Atlus messing around with Lovecraftian style gods and horrors, but Breath of Fire was something esle. It was a more classic struggle against dark and evil gods. And really, as I thought of it, as classic a tale as that sounds, it's not really something you saw in Video games often, not even the RPG Genre where it sounds like it fits most at home.

The fall of Breath of Fire has left a pretty big hole in RPG's, something that wouldn't really be missing these days in the absence of Final Fantasy.

Then I thought more, and Wild Arms is another one like Breath of Fire. A game that, without it, RPG's seem to be lacking. There is no other Wild West RPG out there, at least not any I know of, and for that matter Wild West is a lacking Genre in games, though there is a few up. Even if 4 and 5 added more sci-fi elements, they still had a fun Wild West atmosphere.

Wild Arms got me thinking of Lufia, the RPG that probably had the best puzzles, and solving the maps puzzles actually ended up being a major focus of the game. This and Wild Arms were the only RPG's that had such strong elements of Puzzles to beat the game, and they have faded as well. There is Golden Sun, but with no sign of the final installment, have the heavy puzzle focus's also died out?

Even Earthbound was vastly unique, at least to an American Audience (There were a few Parody style RPG's that never saw stateside releases.) We do have Hyperdimension Neptunia, but even though I enjoy those games, they don't really fill the Earthbound style of cracking jokes at pretty much everything. Neptunia is pretty limited in it's scope of humour, catering almost purely to one very small niche.

I guess you could call this a thread about games that we wish would come back, really this was just me reflecting. I look back and see all these great styles of RPG that I really do feel have a place, yet their existence has faded. While there are still some great RPG's coming out, Atlus and the Xeno Team for example, I can't help but feel they alone don't really make up for the holes left by those other games, nor does it seem anyone at all is interested, at least not on the developers side of things.

Well, there's the ramblings of an old man. :p

[Ultima Shadow]

Even though my first and most consistant RPG series from the SNES and PS1 era had been Final Fantasy, I feel that if it died right now, or even if the PS2 generation didn't happen, it wouldn't really matter, at least not to me.

Yet I sit here thinking about Breath of Fire. The world of RPG's really seems to be missing something without a new Breath of Fire game.
I can feel the same to some degree regarding FF, however... if FF had actually ended with 9, I'm pretty sure I would have been all "oh, I wish they'd make another FF game" these days. :p




Even Earthbound was vastly unique, at least to an American Audience (There were a few Parody style RPG's that never saw stateside releases.) We do have Hyperdimension Neptunia, but even though I enjoy those games, they don't really fill the Earthbound style of cracking jokes at pretty much everything. Neptunia is pretty limited in it's scope of humour, catering almost purely to one very small niche.

Super Robot Taisen og Saga: Endless Frontier

I'm not entirely sure you'd enjoy the game as much as I do, but... that game got two things going for it: its battle system and the jokes. And holy crap do I love that game for those two things alone. :p



As for games I miss and want to come back... well, not as much actual series as just another Super Mario RPG. No, not Paper Mario. A REAL sequel to Legend of the Seven Stars please. :colbert:

[Bolivar]

With the big partnership between Nintendo and Sega, and Camelot now a Nintendo First Party Studio, I really have no idea why they aren't making a new Shining Force and making the Wii U Bolivar's preferred next-gen console...

I don't know about big long running series, mostly because I don't venture too far out from the mainstays, but I also like a lot of RPG series that are new (Valkyria Chronicles) or were never long running (Ogre Battle Saga). Honestly, I kind of feel like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have been missing, with the former struggling to put out a current generation title and the latter having a handheld and an MMO as its last two entries. Honeslty I'm a little shy to check out a lot of newer RPGs since I'm really turned off by the anime style that so many games try to emulate. JRPGs were great because they invented their own aesthetics. Again, Nintendo has some great first party studios, I'd like to see their interpretation of HD JRPGs.

[Polnareff]

Super Robot Taisen: Endless Frontier is great. Hard to find, but great.

Anyway, I didn't go and check out the reply Wolf gave me in that thread yet, but I agree that without games like Grandia, BoF, etc. the JRPG genre feels really empty. I remembered looking forward to hearing about a possible new BoF game after the first one.

Same thing happened when they made 2 and 3 and so on. But IV and V kind of failed sales-wise (V was a giant experiment to the point where it was barely a full game. If you managed to play it front to back it was 1/5 the length of BoFIV), and Capcom is a bit more conscious about where they stick money now, so I can't see another BoF happening unless they let Camelot, the makers of Shining Force, Beyond the Beyond, and Golden Sun, make it. Camelot has expressed interest in doing so at least once.

Lufia was an awesome game for people who liked puzzles. The puzzles put even Zelda's to shame. The last Lufia game I can think of is the action-RPG remake of the second one. It's a great game actually. I was surprised how good it was, but from what I can recall, the puzzles were scaled down.

Wild Arms kind of fell off the wagon for me once they introduced that whole hexagon thing. My favorite WA games are Alter Code F, 3, and 2, in that order. I even liked Crossfire, except for how cheaply difficult it was. Wild Arms 3 was the best game in the series, I felt. Everything just came together seamlessly. I'm not sure if Media.Vision is around anymore. I know they made the WA games, and Rapid Reload, but am not sure about any other games.

[Del Murder]

There is definitely a lack of great JRPG franchises around these days. I would love to see a new BoF game. Or Mana or Chrono or Lufia. Problem is, this genre has dwindled so much in the English markets that it may not make financial sense to revive these great series out here.

[Mirage]

With the big partnership between Nintendo and Sega, and Camelot now a Nintendo First Party Studio, I really have no idea why they aren't making a new Shining Force and making the Wii U Bolivar's preferred next-gen console...

I don't know about big long running series, mostly because I don't venture too far out from the mainstays, but I also like a lot of RPG series that are new (Valkyria Chronicles) or were never long running (Ogre Battle Saga). Honestly, I kind of feel like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have been missing, with the former struggling to put out a current generation title and the latter having a handheld and an MMO as its last two entries. Honeslty I'm a little shy to check out a lot of newer RPGs since I'm really turned off by the anime style that so many games try to emulate. JRPGs were great because they invented their own aesthetics. Again, Nintendo has some great first party studios, I'd like to see their interpretation of HD JRPGs.

WiiU next gen? :p

In either case, I can't really say I miss breath of fire, even if I did like playing them back in the day. Aren't the Tales of games often pretty simplistic in their good vs evil stories? They're certainly not always very complex in their stories.

[kotora]

The RPG genre has the same symptoms of the entire industry. Nearly all releases by major studios are rehashes of stuff we've seen decades ago, and when studios try do bring some innovation to the genre, they end up screwing up all the other parts of the game.

[Depression Moon]

When are we going to get new stuff to talk about. Mostly all I here on here is abut why aren't games like they used to be or that same thing, just directed towards SE, or the same subjects talked about in the past FF games over and over again.

[Bolivar]

Nearly all releases by major studios are rehashes of stuff we've seen decades ago, and when studios try do bring some innovation to the genre, they end up screwing up all the other parts of the game.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/Xenoblade_box_artwork.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Valkyria_cover.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Radiant_Historia_Cover_Art.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Demon's_Souls_Cover.jpg

http://serenesforest.net/fe13/img/box_s.jpg

http://gamesector.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ni-no-kuni-wrath-of-the-white-witch-box-art.jpg

[kotora]

I've only played two of those, Demon's Souls and Valkyria Chronicles, so I can't speak for the other games. While VC had an interesting concept, I did feel like there were a lot of improvements to be made: the gameplay was rather lacking in challenge and depth, and got repetitive pretty soon, and the storyline relied on way too many cliches. I was pretty interested in a sequel to see if they improved on those points, but then they had to go and release them on a different platform :monster:

Either way, it ain't that large a list. 6 games across 4 platforms, in a time span of 5 years.

[Polnareff]

And out of that list, personally only three of those games are _that_ great. Ni no Kuni being one of them. I just got that game a few days ago. :jess:

[Mirage]

Also, Level5, Atlus and Monolith are not major studios. They are many things, and many of these things I enjoy, but they are not big, really.

[Bolivar]

Never said they were major studios or "big" (not sure what you mean by that Mirage or what it has to do with this thread), but those six are pretty universally well-received games that brought a lot of innovation. The list would grow if you get into debatables, there's a good deal more I would add to the list and I'm sure NeoCracker could think of more than a few as well.

But six critical darlings with big innovations is pretty nice. Has any other genre innovated more than JRPGs this generation?

[Polnareff]

Atlus is definitely a big company now. They've come a long way from the PSX days. I'd venture to say that Level-5 is big too. Inazuma Eleven alone got them so much bank, and how would they be able to develop games like Dragon Quest and Ni no Kuni if they were lacking in funds?

[Bolivar]

Well to be fair, Level-5 makes a lot of their titles either with Square Enix's money (when they did Dragon Quest) or with Sony's money subsidizing exclusives, but I would consider them a major studio. They helmed the premier Japanese franchise for some time.

In any case, I'm not saying "big studios" make innovative JRPGs, or that there have been many of them. Just that Kotoroa made an overly pessimistic statement that was pretty easily discredited.

[NeoCracker]

There is definitely a lack of great JRPG franchises around these days. I would love to see a new BoF game. Or Mana or Chrono or Lufia. Problem is, this genre has dwindled so much in the English markets that it may not make financial sense to revive these great series out here.

I think it could work, it's all about managing expectations and knowing the audience. For example, Hyper dimension Neptunia is a financial success. The Atelier Series has been doing well on the PS3. The amount of copies they sell aren't anywhere near the amount that games like FF sell (I don't believe they sell as well as even Shin Megami Titles), and often don't even get reviews in Game Informer (Plenty of other places do give it reviews, mind you. :p).

As long as they keep their heads level about the reality of likely sales, I think they could all do fine.




Never said they were major studios or "big" (not sure what you mean by that Mirage or what it has to do with this thread), but those six are pretty universally well-received games that brought a lot of innovation. The list would grow if you get into debatables, there's a good deal more I would add to the list and I'm sure NeoCracker could think of more than a few as well.

But six critical darlings with big innovations is pretty nice. Has any other genre innovated more than JRPGs this generation?

Most of which were Shin Megami Titles. :p


And on topic of Atlus and if they are a big studio, it really depends what you mean. Do you mean Atlus USA which has published the likes of Demon's Souls, Radiant Historia, the latest King of Fighters? Or are we talking about Atlus USA, the publisher?

According to Wikipedia, the most notable games from Atlus the developer are anything with Shin Megami Tensai and Trauma Center. Mostly more Niche titles, so I don't think I'd call them big, at least not in the US. Not sure about Japan.

Atlus USA, on the other hand, not only publishes all the developers titles, but the biggest titles they turn out stateside aren't the ones developed by Atlus back in Japan, even if those are all my favorites. They may not be up with the bigger publishers like Ubisoft, Square, activision, or EA, but they are pretty big.


Edit: I do want to make sure it's clear, I don't think the current landscape of RPG's is bad, there are a lot of wonderful games out there from this gen for RPG's, and quite a few styles we've not seen before.

I just don't think they need to come at the sacrifice of some of the things we've had before. :cry:

[Del Murder]

I think it could work, it's all about managing expectations and knowing the audience. For example, Hyper dimension Neptunia is a financial success. The Atelier Series has been doing well on the PS3. The amount of copies they sell aren't anywhere near the amount that games like FF sell (I don't believe they sell as well as even Shin Megami Titles), and often don't even get reviews in Game Informer (Plenty of other places do give it reviews, mind you. :p).

I've never even heard of those. In what way are they a success? Obviously, a revival of a big name franchise will require a financial commitment greater than those series have gotten and their sales numbers may not be considered successful enough to the major studios.

[NeoCracker]

I think it could work, it's all about managing expectations and knowing the audience. For example, Hyper dimension Neptunia is a financial success. The Atelier Series has been doing well on the PS3. The amount of copies they sell aren't anywhere near the amount that games like FF sell (I don't believe they sell as well as even Shin Megami Titles), and often don't even get reviews in Game Informer (Plenty of other places do give it reviews, mind you. :p).

I've never even heard of those. In what way are they a success? Obviously, a revival of a big name franchise will require a financial commitment greater than those series have gotten and their sales numbers may not be considered successful enough to the major studios.

They are a success in that the makers keep making money off them. :p

Atelier has had a solid fan base in the US since Atelier Iris launched. There have been four Atelier games launched on the PS3, all of which made the developers and publishers money. :p (Atelier Iris 1-3, Mana Khemia 1&2, The Three Atelier Arland games, and most recently Atelier Ayesha, plus quite a few that hadn't gotten US releases piror to Iris.)

In a sense, BoF is a lot like them actually. Outside of the big RPG games, Breath of Fire was never a best seller, but always did well for itself. Perhaps compared to the marketing push that goes into Atelier it would be pricier, but it wouldn't need the same marketing as a lot of big titles would.

Really the same applies to Wild Arms. A lot of great RPG's were never big budget titles outside of Squares.

[Del Murder]

How do you know it made money? Is there a website that keeps track of this?

[NeoCracker]

How do you know it made money? Is there a website that keeps track of this?

No, but considering Atelier makes up the majority of Gust's games, and they've made god knows how many by now, I think it's obvious they've been making them money. :p

With Hyper Dimension, if it hadn't started making money by game two I doubt it would have gotten two more stateside releases considering it was a big risk to bring over the first to begin with.

Mind you, I could be horribly wrong and somehow Gust has managed to remain afloat regardless of 6+ years of shit business decisions, but part of me highly doubts that. :p

[Ultima Shadow]

Apparently, the limited edition of Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory was sold out 2 months before release. And there's even an anime in the making now too. Considering the games aren't too harsh on the budget either, and that the sequels weren't planned when the first game was being made, I do believe that the Hyperdimension Neptunia series has been relatively successful, yeah. :p

[HasteInTime]

Okay, this thread is inspired by the Square and Capcom discussion with Wolf and Haste in the SE forum, and in my head I was going 'I need to drop a Breath of Fire referance here'. And then something occurred to me after that thought. Even though my first and most consistant RPG series from the SNES and PS1 era had been Final Fantasy, I feel that if it died right now, or even if the PS2 generation didn't happen, it wouldn't really matter, at least not to me.

Yet I sit here thinking about Breath of Fire. The world of RPG's really seems to be missing something without a new Breath of Fire game. We have the Xeno Crew creating this epic and god scaled stories spanning the galaxies, and Atlus messing around with Lovecraftian style gods and horrors, but Breath of Fire was something esle. It was a more classic struggle against dark and evil gods. And really, as I thought of it, as classic a tale as that sounds, it's not really something you saw in Video games often, not even the RPG Genre where it sounds like it fits most at home.

The fall of Breath of Fire has left a pretty big hole in RPG's, something that wouldn't really be missing these days in the absence of Final Fantasy.

Then I thought more, and Wild Arms is another one like Breath of Fire. A game that, without it, RPG's seem to be lacking. There is no other Wild West RPG out there, at least not any I know of, and for that matter Wild West is a lacking Genre in games, though there is a few up. Even if 4 and 5 added more sci-fi elements, they still had a fun Wild West atmosphere.

Wild Arms got me thinking of Lufia, the RPG that probably had the best puzzles, and solving the maps puzzles actually ended up being a major focus of the game. This and Wild Arms were the only RPG's that had such strong elements of Puzzles to beat the game, and they have faded as well. There is Golden Sun, but with no sign of the final installment, have the heavy puzzle focus's also died out?

Even Earthbound was vastly unique, at least to an American Audience (There were a few Parody style RPG's that never saw stateside releases.) We do have Hyperdimension Neptunia, but even though I enjoy those games, they don't really fill the Earthbound style of cracking jokes at pretty much everything. Neptunia is pretty limited in it's scope of humour, catering almost purely to one very small niche.

I guess you could call this a thread about games that we wish would come back, really this was just me reflecting. I look back and see all these great styles of RPG that I really do feel have a place, yet their existence has faded. While there are still some great RPG's coming out, Atlus and the Xeno Team for example, I can't help but feel they alone don't really make up for the holes left by those other games, nor does it seem anyone at all is interested, at least not on the developers side of things.

Well, there's the ramblings of an old man. :p

I Appreciate the mention, I know SE has probably been discussed to near death here on EoFF. However first thing is first just call me Tom, Haste in Time, or just HiT (which is my tag's initials) :p

Also I am happy to have helped to inspire this conversation, in my defense RPGs are not dead but yes there are certainly less Japanese inspired titles for the "western" audience aka 'the rest of the world' but mostly aimed at the US, UK, and EU. I sometimes wish there were more of these great titles, which is why I wrote about SE to a larger degree. Since I realized they have done a large number of them under the name Squaresoft. As SS they were willing to take creative risks and present their games to a wider audience of players/gamers. That is something I loved about them, that and like I said I miss the inspirational creative talent and certain innovation it brought under the former. As it seems its all being put on hold and wasted.

I can see why Devs like Gust could be having trouble getting these games out there. In addition the 360 was not as popular in markets like Japan where Microsoft has struggled, by ignoring the 360 as a platform they have ignored a large majority of the US and by proxy the world. The 360 has sold over 76 Million consoles worldwide and is the most popular in the US, what I am getting at here is the US is the center focus of the world for video games and if you ignore it, you'll regret that decision. If you dont you will be greatly rewarded by the entire world. I understand what's popular isn't always the determining factor but in this case I think it was foolish for Japan to ignore the US market. Shooters became the most dominate because of that kind of choice.

These days I am just looking forward to a few awesome games: (4 in particular)
Fallout: "Boston" (anticipating)
KH3 (I am also getting KH 1.5 Remix:love:)
Dark Souls II
Fable Anniversary (it is getting fully updated and overhauled, a remastered remake of Fable TLC if you will:love:)

I hope we do see more RPGs overall and while I do miss stuff like Drakan: The Ancients Gate, Legend of Dragoon, Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger, and many-many-many more. New Ip's are welcome as long as they are fun and in-depth. Whether they are of Japanese origin or not. I will be a happy camper. :D

[black orb]

>>> Tales games fill all those old rpg´s holes..:luca:

I barely have enough time to play I couple of RPGs titles every year so is not a big deal for me anyways.