Sexism and Sexuality In Games from Bioware Writer David Gaider

[Freya]

There's an interesting video from Bioware's David Gaider about sexuality and sexism in games. Now it isn't so much "girls play omg" and more of "what kind of games are we making? Who are we targeting?" It's a presentation from 2013 GDC.

Anyway, check it out. (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/194571/Video_Sexism_and_sexuality_in_games.php)

"There's a difference of being sexy and sexualized. And it's not difficult to see who in games is most often sexualized and thus to whom those images are meant to appeal. By doing so you've made things blatantly clear." Then he goes on to say they too fall into that with characters such as isabella but explains things. It's good.

Mostly it's about how we can change games to factor in other demographics rather than getting rid of it all and restarting.

[Jinx]

Say what you will, but being able to choose Lightning's outfit looks faaaaaaaaabulooooooous.

[Freya]

You didn't watch it did you xD

[Jinx]

You didn't watch it did you xD

:shobon:

[Mercen-X]

Can't even access it

[Denmark]

Wii Fit Trainer

that is all

[Quindiana Jones]

This is something I've noticed in female characters across all medias. When creating a male character, writers have no problem just making someone. What does he look like? What does he think like? What's his history? How has that affected him? etc. Simple, effective questions for making a unique and interesting character. When it comes to women, they often feel obligated to throw in so many "Why?"s. What does she look like? She's ugly. But whyyyy? Women aren't supposed to be ugly! And then we end up with really contrived backstories a lot of the time.

Regarding the men and women I know, most of them a pretty good looking. Some of them are very sexy. Some are normal looking, and some are ugly as a pig's shaved arse. Game developers often only consider the first two as options for some reason. When it comes to men, they have to look like grizzled, manly men (unless there is a reason not to, like being a scientist or a librarian), and women have to look like semi-naked hourglasses (unless there is a reason not to, like... umm... nevermind).

Dunno where I'm going with this. Just an observation, really.

[Shauna]

This is something I've noticed in female characters across all medias. When creating a male character, writers have no problem just making someone. What does he look like? What does he think like? What's his history? How has that affected him? etc. Simple, effective questions for making a unique and interesting character. When it comes to women, they often feel obligated to throw in so many "Why?"s. What does she look like? She's ugly. But whyyyy? Women aren't supposed to be ugly! And then we end up with really contrived backstories a lot of the time.

I imagine this has a lot to do with the pressure they feel to write "good female characters", when really they should be looking to write "good characters, who happen to be female". I'm sure every writer knows that there are a lack of interesting female characters in the media, so they try extra hard to write a "good female character", which never comes across as well. If they just wrote a character and then that character just happened to be female, they'd probably seem less contrived.



When it comes to men, they have to look like grizzled, manly men (unless there is a reason not to, like being a scientist or a librarian), and women have to look like semi-naked hourglasses (unless there is a reason not to, like... umm... nevermind).

Eh, I feel that there's more of a spectrum for male characters. Just having a look at my games, we have a range from Alan Wake (a writer who is crap at running) to Marcus Fenix (that grizzled manly man archetype you were referring to) to Nier (the ugliest man in video games). All these things are allowed! When it comes to female characters though, there's the conventionally attractive badass and the conventionally attractive damsel in distress.

I don't know where I'm going with this either. xD

[Loony BoB]

First up: Haven't seen the video, can't as I'm at work. :(

While I agree with the sentiments I imagine I'll find in the video, I can't help but look at how we rarely if ever have a big, fat male lead character either. I mean, sure, sometimes the male characters will be rugged, sometimes they will be scarred and have an eye missing, sometimes they'll be old. But, and here's the kicker, people will still be attracted to them in one way or another - even the ones coated in scars and with one eye missing. It won't be a sexual attraction, but there is definitely an audience for these characters. I know of a few people who would happily play as them. It should also be noted that even the scarred, one eyes fellas will still probably be fairly buff. I've yet to see a completely unattractive male.

Can females get away with that as well? I'm not so sure. There's also the simple viewpoint that the female body tends to be more attractive by mere default. I don't know about you guys, but if I saw some of the girls I see in video games walk down the street I'd not really be chasing after them. They just seem normal. Sure, they aren't fat, but beyond that I'd say it's more of a simple case of people looking at the females in these games and saying "if not fat, must be attractive!" Maybe they need to pluck out an eye and coat their faces with scars or something, but really these girls are just normal girls I'd see in the street and not bat an eyelid in many cases. I'm thinking of the girls in Uncharted, Tomb Raider, Mass Effect here - not Final Fantasy. Both genders in FF games look rather bonkers more often than not. >=P

So yeah. I think there's a lot to be said for how characters are sexualised and I don't think it's always the intention of the developers or character designers. I think that's just sometimes how it ends up. Are the girls often well toned? Yes. Are the guys often well toned? Yes. This is what happens when you get a character and make them into a fighting, acrobatic machine and send then running around from the moment they wake up to the moment they fall asleep. xD As for faces, perhaps we'll see less 'perfect' faces in the future generation of gaming, but I'll quickly point out that less 'perfect' faces on a guy is often seen as attractive, so really guys are just as attractive as girls in these games. There's also "the eye of the beholder" - I never found Jack to be sexy in the ME series, but I know a lot of others did. So even when they make a character unattractive to some, they'll still be sexualised by others. When I say 'others' - I mean the players, not the creators. It just so happens that girls are more often sexualised by people than guys are. They could put Brad Pitt and Jo Brand in a video game and, somehow, more players would find a way to sexualise Jo than Brad. Sometimes people are just weird like that. :p

[Quindiana Jones]

Eh, I feel that there's more of a spectrum for male characters. Just having a look at my games, we have a range from Alan Wake (a writer who is crap at running) to Marcus Fenix (that grizzled manly man archetype you were referring to) to Nier (the ugliest man in video games). All these things are allowed! When it comes to female characters though, there's the conventionally attractive badass and the conventionally attractive damsel in distress.

I don't know where I'm going with this either. xD

Don't forget the ugly woman who is manly because she's too ugly to be a proper woman.

[NeoCracker]

I will slightly counter BoB here by recalling an article in an old game informer from an itnerview with the Gearbox guys after Boarderlands launched. They spoke about how there was more pressure on them trying to make females physically attractive. So for some developers, there is an active goal to do so.

They basically said that when dealing with men they have a lot more leeway with design, where they were afraid if their female was unnatractive it would reflect badly on the character.

Mind you, it is hard to say how much of the pressure they felt was justified. It's kind of like the female leads in games issue, where they don't get the same level of marketing or sales other games do. We don't see them marketed as highly, and generally undersell compared to others. Is this due to marketing not being there, or is it due to a female lead not selling well regardless of marketing? Since we hadn't really seen many games at all with females be heavily marketed, it's almost impossible to determine. (Well, now we have Tomb Raider hitting the 3.4Mil mark in sales, a great number regardless of Squares inability to judge their demand properly, so it may well be more on the heads of the publishers in this case. The issues behind Remember Me's developement tending in that direction as well I think. VG charts did show 40K sales on the 8th, a day after release in NA, for what it's worth. Not sure of the current number.)

[Shauna]

I don't know if I have a game with that type of character in it. Maybe the Gears lady! Or uh, the woman from Bulletstorm!

[Quindiana Jones]

Remember Me really is a great game.

[NeoCracker]

I wish there was a more up to date sales on it rather then just first week so we can see how well it did.

[Shauna]

According to VGCharts, it's sitting at ~70K.

[NeoCracker]

That's actually pretty good! Huzzah!

[Quindiana Jones]

70,000?

That's cack. :(

[NeoCracker]

Really? Call of Duty seems to have, on PS3 and 360 combined, sold just over 90K.

It may be 20K less, but it also isn't as heavily avertised, and doesn't have the pre-built fan base.

And don't forget the release of it kind of snuck up out of no where with the publisher issues.

Edit: The PS3 version is the #7th best seller of June, beating out Resident Evil, Just Dance 4, and Fifa Soccer! Barely lagging behind the 360 version of Call of Duty. (Unrelated, I laugh the PS3 version of Call of Duty is ranked two spots above the 360 version. :p)

[Pike]

As a side note am I the only female who almost exclusively plays male characters when given the option?

[Loony BoB]

I will slightly counter BoB here by recalling an article in an old game informer from an itnerview with the Gearbox guys after Boarderlands launched. They spoke about how there was more pressure on them trying to make females physically attractive. So for some developers, there is an active goal to do so.
Oh, yeah, I should clarify that I don't mean all of them. I mean, I figured that went without saying. Everyone who has seen Bayonetta... xD

[NeoCracker]

I will slightly counter BoB here by recalling an article in an old game informer from an itnerview with the Gearbox guys after Boarderlands launched. They spoke about how there was more pressure on them trying to make females physically attractive. So for some developers, there is an active goal to do so.
Oh, yeah, I should clarify that I don't mean all of them. I mean, I figured that went without saying. Everyone who has seen Bayonetta... xD

Yeah, but again this was teh Gearbox guys on Borderlands. That game was hardly in the same vein as the likes of Bayonetta. XD

[Shauna]

Really? Call of Duty seems to have, on PS3 and 360 combined, sold just over 90K.

CoD has sold millions. xD Slightly more than <100,000 units.

[NeoCracker]

Really? Call of Duty seems to have, on PS3 and 360 combined, sold just over 90K.

CoD has sold millions. xD Slightly more than <100,000 units.

I should have added in 'in referance to the first weak in june'. :p

[Quindiana Jones]

Nope. You should have added "in reference to the first week of June". ;)

Wasn't CoD released last November, though?

[DMKA]

Remember Me really is a great game.

Is it really? I was really interested in it until it finally came out.

I find it interesting that it's Metacritic scores vary so much between the PS3/360/PC versions. They're all the same game, right? :p

[Quindiana Jones]

How come? What killed your interest?

[DMKA]

How come? What killed your interest?
Hearing nothing but bad things about it via word of mouth.

[Quindiana Jones]

Check the thread, son.

[Mirage]

As a side note am I the only female who almost exclusively plays male characters when given the option?

No, I know a few. I am pretty sure one of them does it solely because she finds them more attractive. Then again, these are also games where she can decide their appearances herself. Might be different if it's a predefined character.

[Freya]

Lol did anyone watch the new video?

[Shauna]

I watched the video. :3 I agree with what the guy is saying.

[Mirage]

I watched it. Why do you ask? :p

[Pumpkin]

I think it would be hard to come up with a female character if you care about feedback. Some people will complain if they're too attractive. Some will complain if they aren't attractive enough. There seems to be less sensitivity (at least with people I talk to) about how a male character looks.

I agree with what he says about the difference between sexy and sexualized. I also agree with knowing your target audience. He says video games used to be targeted mostly at teenage boys, but the industry has evolved and now people of both genders and all ages play video games, and they need to adapt to that.

I can say as a person with very low self esteem, that I hate watching my boyfriend play Dead or Alive. Hate it. I actually have to leave the room. It makes me feel awful about myself. Their characters turn me off that much. Yes, it's silly, but you know what? It affects me the way it does and I don't need that extra kind of stress in my life. Hopefully one day I will have good enough self esteem that something dumb like that won't affect me. In the meantime, overly sexualized games like that turn me off. On the other hand, I have played games where a female character is very sexy, but if they have stories or personalities and I enjoy seeing them as I would any other character, suddenly the looks don't threaten me so much. Suddenly it's just an attractive person, I mean there are attractive people in the world, and then the looks thing is totally okay, if not preferred. People like watching attractive people.

I don't know if I explained myself clearly, but to me personally, there's a big big difference.

[Aulayna]

If Men wore the same armour as most Females in video games:

http://i.imgur.com/rwBck9I.jpg

[Mirage]

If that was available in a game, I would so totally wear it.

Speaking of female armor, at least FFXIV isn't too (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1132077/images/ff14/ffxiv_20130623_010142.png) bad (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1132077/images/ff14/FFXIV_1340854173.jpg) at it!

Well, that's all designs from the previous version. I hope Yoshida won't change it to generic boob-plate designs. That would probably make me quit.

[Freya]

YEahhhhh the default outfit for the cat ladies now, I can see up their skirt. I was moving the camera around, trying to get use to it and I saw her undies easily. o.o

[Mirage]

All the female starting gear is way too pantyshot-friendly. It is kind of worrying. I hope it's not something that is going to become a trend in the game.

The only reason I'm not bringing it up right now is that it's not really armor. It's not something that pretends to be supposed to be worn in battle. Almost all gear that is actually meant to be worn in combat looks either functional, or equally revealing for both sexes.