Curse You Robin Williams/Why Balamb Garden Is Terrible

[Forsaken Lover]

So I realize Cid even says at one point the heroes have a right to lay into him BUT THEY DON'T so I will stand up for the little guy instead.

This guy takes orphaned children with no place to go and raises them as soldiers. He makes them use creatures that force them to lose their memory which means at least two of them grow up to be mentally unstable. Due to stuned emotional growth or forgotten trauma with no closure, they are thus prone to flipping out or joining the evil side.

The true aim of Balamb is also hidden from its students which mean most of the SeeDs we see who go off to risk their lives are fighting for absolutely nothing. They don't know crap about time traveling sorceresses from the future or that the whole academy exists to defeat them. They go off and die in some meaningless borderr squabble and who cares because that isn't what the Garden is even for.

To top it all offf, the place is actually run by this guy.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120506200208/finalfantasy/images/f/fe/FF8_Norg.png

[Red Mage Coffman]

The last part, it ruined me. Thank you, I needed this.

[Jiro]

Time to defend Robin Williams a little.

This point could go either way, but he doesn't just take orphans. Zell is a student at Balamb, and he has an adopted mother. So it's highly likely that Gardens are seen as - and heck, they even appear to be - the only or primary source of education. Galbadia's Garden is a straight up academy that leads into its army, so I can't see it being too different from modern day academies like that. So if these institutions are the closest we have to schools, then it's likely they teach more than just how to fight - I'm not saying a lot more, and combat is obviously on the curriculum whether you want it or not, but there you go.

I'd also dare to use your initial point against you: he takes orphaned kids with no place to go and gives them somewhere, as well as people to be there with. That's... a pretty nice thing, all things considered. They're given friends and teachers and can develop relationships. I know the GF thing is kind of a dick move, but it's necessary as well. I would have liked to see GFs used more by SeeD and less by cadets - the length of time they'd have to had been using GFs to forget their goddamn childhood is outrageous - but them's the breaks, I guess.

SeeDs who go off to fight in non-sorceress related battles are not wasted. What else are they going to do? Do you have SeeD sit around for 5, 10, 15 years waiting for events to kick into motion? Fat lot of good they'll do against a powerful timetravelling sorceress if they've got no real life battle experience and they're using fucking T-Rexaur as the only means to stay "battle ready." Those SeeD are out there getting the skills they need to survive an even harder battle, and they're making some money so that the school can stay operating. I mean shit, how do you think they afford all those goddamn hotdogs?

Can't fault your last point though. NORG is a :bou::bou::bou::bou:. :monster:

[Scotty_ffgamer]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Cid knew nothing about time travelling sorceresses from the future as well. The discussion of SeeD's purpose I think was poorly written (and/or translated), and it doesn't make a whole ton of sense. That being said, I had always seen the purpose of Balamb Garden to essentially be a means to keep another Sorceress War from happening. Keep in mind that Squall and the others were orphaned because of the specifically Sorceress War. They do actually have a stake in the cause (even if they can't remember it). Also, if I remember right, not much is really said of Squall and Seifer's childhoods after the orphanage to show how they got to Balamb. We don't necessarily know that Squall and Seifer and some of the others weren't there by choice and not because that was the only place for them to go by being orphans under Matron's care.

Jiro already brought up my point of the students needing to have battle experience with more than just monsters. Them working as mercenaries brought in money for the school and allowed the students to have experience with tactics/fighting against humans of different kinds/even learning some diplomacy I'm sure. But, I'm also pretty sure that Cid mentioned (possibly in a conversation you can miss) that he had kind of gotten caught up in the mercenary side of things and lost sight of the sorceress side of things. I could be making that up.

All in all, the GF thing is a big negative for the man. That should be something either left to SeeD specifically and/or only used by people voluntarily who knew the side effects. I also felt it a terrible choice on his part to never mention NORG to any of the students. He also seemed to have just given up by the end of the game. Also (aside from being necessary for story), it does seem strange for him to give up the school to Squall rather than someone who had more experience with battles and leadership. I can also see why he would give up leadership to Squall in particular, though.

[Jiro]

Yeah, a lot of Cid's mistakes or oversights could've been done differently, but I think they add to his character. He's not a perfect man. Far from it. But he does his best until he realises that things are beyond his capabilities, and then he passes them over to someone with more resolve. Squall might not be the most qualified for the job, but when the chips are down, the students are going to respond better to someone who is "never give up" rather than someone who is uncertain of himself.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I do like Cid as a character for those shortcomings. I just figured I would bring up some shortcomings. I've actually been thinking a lot lately about Cid as a character for some reason.

[James_Cub]

As far as I know, they only start using GF's shortly before they graduate. You see Squall only gets his first two before going of to fight Ifrit. And it is never explicitly said that Cid knew about the memory issue that GFs cause, nor did he knew about the time travel. In fact, I seem to recall that time travel was Ultimecia's "idea". She came from the future into the past, in order to be able to guarantee a successor and be able to control Elone's power. They only then decided to use Elone's power to help them get to Ultimecia after they discovered Ultimecia's true plot, so you can't blame Cid for that. Hell, he probably didn't even know of this up until Edea was posessed which according to the time frame hadn't been for that long.
On a side note, yes NORG is disgusting, maybe that's what the game designers wanted to portray banks as. Because basically that's what he is, a corrupt loan shark. On a better note, you can draw Leviathan from him :)

[Forsaken Lover]

What about the whole sending newbies to kidnap the president of the world's only active superpower? That was genius wasn't it? Apparently Cid only got NORG to go along with it by sending rookies because the Owls were only able to pay them in pocket change but the facts of the matter is still that Cid sent in his worst team to accomplish the biggest feat.

[Jiro]

Being inexperienced doesn't necessarily make them the worst team. The mission would've been a success if Irvine hadn't lost his shit, and that was Martine's fault. Granted, Quistis's behaviour was piss poor and almost cost them everything, but it should've worked.

[Forsaken Lover]

I'm talking about the train mission to try and kidnap Deling.

[Jiro]

Ohhh never mind me my reading comprehension is shit :monster:

Cid didn't have a lot of confidence in the Forest Owls and probably thought the plan wouldn't get off the ground. Nothing wrong with sending some fresh SeeDs out to get some field experience, right? Although they were basically locked in for life, so... yeah, Cid was a little bit fucking mental there. No reason to write off fresh recruits especially given how much faith he seemed to have in Squall

[maybee]

Robin Williams is the worst Final Fantasy Cid ever, in the whole entire series. Who the hell, runs away like a coward to the Orphange while the Sorceress and Seifer is attacking and murdering all your students and basically your children, and then leaves a seventeen year old novice Solider in charge of everything ???

It was understandable that he didn't want to see his Wife murdered by his child soldiers, but he must of been preparing for this, he must of been ready, he knew that one day that it was going to happen, putting everything on a young boy who is already pretty much traumatized by childhood trauma is disgusting.

[black orb]

>>> Robin Williams? I thought it was Elton John..:luca:

[Forsaken Lover]

Sorry but I have to say something. I'm playing through FFVIII again and I wanted to comment on something.

You know the problem with Balamb Garden? It's SUPPOSED to be a mercenary-raising institution. Yet in actuality the tone and atmosphere of it is really more like an anime high school. The character sheets for Squall and the others lists them as Child Soldiers but we're not talking Raiden from MGS 2 here. Selphie and the rest just come off as angsty, stupid teenagers.

I'm watching the Garden battle, the one part most people love about FFVIII, and I see the "Junior Classmen" getting hurt and needing to be protected. Well you know what? It's not the Galbadian's fault. You don't bring in minors to your mercenary base. Moreover, teh whole "Garden is neutral" thing is bullshit. See Ds are quite famous and if you keep dispatching them all over the world in military disputes then obviously someone someday is going to retaliate. And who do you have to blame when the 5-year-olds get mowed down in a hail of gunfire? Yurself. Garden is not a country with civilians or non-combatants, it is a place precisely for combatants only. There is no quarter and there shouldn't be.

Really, Cid is no better than NORG. At least NORG was honest. FFVIII just really reeks of Fridge Horror because I doubt Nojima or anyone else ever considered the implications of Garden at all.

[Jiro]

Combining the school and mercenary aspects of Garden is troublesome. But SeeD graduates are no longer students, per se, and their affiliation is with the upper echelons and not with the educational aspect. It's really dodgy, and Forsaken Lover's points are really valid, but I don't think they were quite as connected as they seem. In any case, if they are, then that is some dodgy shit indeed.