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Cuchulainn
08-29-2013, 11:02 PM
Or is this game the best final final fantasy game released?

Just decided to dust it off and play it again and I've just had the realisation that it's fucking fantastic for the following reasons.

- There's no pathetic, childish , emo love story forced on you
- The world seems filled. In other releases you'd swear it was a post-apocalyptic nightmare of a place where only your group and a few scattered souls survive.
- The storyline is mature and for the first time almost believable.
- the bad guys don't look like angry transvestites anymore and actually look pretty fucking cool.
- Tidus isnt in it
- you can dedicate as much or as little time you can to it. You get your moneys worth.
- the characters that annoy you no longer outnumber the characters that dont.
- Balthier and Fran are probably the best protagonists of the FF series.
- Along with FFIX it's probably the best written of all the games
- Tidus isnt in it
- It's not too silly (FFIX, even though i love FF IX it's undoubtedly made as a fun homage-type title) or too pathetically emo (FFVIII) it finds that awesome middle ground.
- it's a world. It comes across as a world. ie. you're not wandering from a fucking snow field into a dark forestr, into a great plain in a few tiny steps. You get the sense you're actually fucking travelling.
- Tidus isnt in it
- the gambit system. One word. Revolutionary.
- weather. there's fucking weather.
- There's many shades of grey. Not just you're tired good vs evil.
- There's a fucking T-Rex
- You get to kill bunnies who only want to cure you.
- Moogles are back.
- Tidus isnt in it
- The sidequests are relatively enjoyable and not fucking tortuous.

Discuss

Jinx
08-29-2013, 11:14 PM
The best part of this game is killing sleeping Cactuars.

Shorty
08-29-2013, 11:25 PM
Tidus isn't in it? I'll play it.

nik0tine
08-30-2013, 05:46 AM
You forgot to mention the amazing soundtrack.

maybee
08-30-2013, 01:36 PM
Or is this game the best final final fantasy game released?


Yeah you're 100 per cent insane. The best Final Fantasy ? What acid are you smoking and stay away from it.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mba5psXab41r4t7nto1_250.gif




- There's no pathetic, childish , emo love story forced on you

Emo ? What its this ? 2006 ?



In other releases you'd swear it was a post-apocalyptic nightmare of a place where only your group and a few scattered souls survive.

Which made them more entertaining and actually interesting to play. Unlike being a huge bore with tag-alongs.



- The storyline is mature and for the first time almost believable.

One of the female characters is a fricken Playboy Bunny.



- the bad guys don't look like angry transvestites anymore and actually look pretty smurfing cool.

Kuja was a fantastic villain. Again stop that LSD you seem to be drilling into yourself.





- Tidus isnt in it

It has VAAN instead. I'll hang out with Tiddles over Vaan anyday.

[/quote]


- you can dedicate as much or as little time you can to it. You get your moneys worth.

You can do this with any Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy XII just has more sidequests which are dull as hell. I'll rather have sidequests like the FF VII Gold Saucer than the sleeping pills the FF XII sidequestes were.




- the characters that annoy you no longer outnumber the characters that dont.

Vaan- Worse than Tidus, obnoxious tag-along
Penelo- Obnoxious tag-along
Fran- Playboy Bunny sending womens rights back to the Stone Age
Balthier- Arrogant prick who thought that he was God of the Earth
Basche- The Evil Twin/ Brother thing has already been done better with FFIV and FF IX
Ashe- They didn't make her the lead when they should of a huge blow to the game.

Tidus- Annoying but he had a decent reason too and had CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT unlike Vaan
Yuna- One of the best Final Fantasy females out there
Lulu- Strong, beautiful Mother Type and Sister to Yuna. Harsh but understandable
Auron- Calm and enigmatic. Interesting. Interesting isn't in FFXII's world.
Kimahri- Pretty underated ? Brother/ Protecter type to Yuna, nice guy again interesting.
Wakka- the only disappointment FF X has.



- Balthier and Fran are probably the best protagonists of the FF series.

* Spews up Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner *



- Along with FFIX it's probably the best written of all the games

FF IX yes
FF XII no



- It's not too silly

Playboy bunny



- it's a world. It comes across as a world. ie. you're not wandering from a smurfing snow field into a dark forestr, into a great plain in a few tiny steps. You get the sense you're actually smurfing travelling.

Disagree heavily. FF I- FF9 it feels like your travelling. FF X and FF XIII are the only games that don't feel like your travelling.

FF XII-2 did the Chrono Trigger thing which made it awesome.



- the gambit system. One word. Revolutionary.

Yeah sure the computer does the work for you. You'll love FF XIII it triples that format.



- weather. there's smurfing weather.

There's more weather outside and it's real weather not 2006 PS2 graphics weather.



- There's many shades of grey. Not just you're tired good vs evil.

Leo says Hi
Celes says Hi
Beatrix says Hi
Cecil says Hi
Kuja says Hi
Golbez says Hi



- There's a smurfing T-Rex

Final Fantasy VIII says hi. Oh wait I forget Final Fantasy VIII is just a "emo" "childish" love story my apologizes. :greenie:



- You get to kill bunnies who only want to cure you.

That's pretty mean. Poor Bunnies.



- Moogles are back.

Will actually give you this one. The FF 12 Moogles are pretty cool.



- Tidus isnt in it

V
A
A
N



- The sidequests are relatively enjoyable and not smurfing tortuous.

We couldn't be more different.

Fynn
08-31-2013, 10:15 PM
Ignore maybee. She's still young, and you, Cuch, are absolutely right (and I rarely agree with what you say). This game is fantastic :love: Yet it still deserves much more love than it gets. :cry:

Formalhaut
08-31-2013, 10:31 PM
Holy crap I agree with Cuch.

Hell has just frozen over now, hasn't it?

Tigmafuzz
09-01-2013, 03:17 AM
It's my third favorite FF, below IX and VI, but they're all really close. I hate Vaan, but I love the game overall. 9/10 would play again if I could find it.

maybee
09-01-2013, 03:50 AM
Ignore maybee. She's still young

Age doesn't equal anything though. It's just a number. :colbert:



FF XII was terrible and I don't understand this forums love for it. Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VI are clearly better games.

&

Vaan

Spooniest
09-01-2013, 08:31 AM
When I gave Douze a shot, I was couch surfing in the house of a director friend, and my life was basically trout.

It hasn't improved much, but my outlook on it has changed such that I'd be interested in giving it another shot.

I still wish they'd bring the ATB back.

Fynn
09-01-2013, 10:03 AM
Ignore maybee. She's still young

Age doesn't equal anything though. It's just a number. :colbert:



FF XII was terrible and I don't understand this forums love for it. Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VI are clearly better games.

&

Vaan

You just listed VI twice :D

And what exactly is wrong with a level-headed supporting protagonist? Vaan is easily the most mature "lead" (yeah, I know he isn't actually one, but you get the picture) from the post-VI FFs, if only for the fact that he is the one who influences Ashe to give up on chasing the memory of her husband and look to the future, past the Occuria's influence, not destroy Archadia and bring actual peace to the land.

EDIT: Also, sadly, age is not just a number. That was meant as a joke, since I myself am not much older than you, but there are certain things that we are oblivious to until we are older. Thus, our tastes get refined once we get older. Still not saying everyone will like XII once they age, though :D

Karifean
09-01-2013, 10:13 AM
Ignore maybee. She's still young

Age doesn't equal anything though. It's just a number. :colbert:



FF XII was terrible and I don't understand this forums love for it. Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VI are clearly better games.

&

Vaan

You just listed VI twice :D

And what exactly is wrong with a level-headed supporting protagonist? Vaan Tidus is easily the most mature "lead" from the post-VI FFs, if only for the fact that he is the one who influences Ashe Yuna to give up on chasing the memory of her husband her old beliefs and look to the future for another way, past the Occuria's Church of Yevon's influence, not destroy Archadia herself and bring actual peace to the land.

If you're gonna give Vaan credit for his actions, gotta give Tidus credit for his, too.

Fynn
09-01-2013, 10:51 AM
Ignore maybee. She's still young

Age doesn't equal anything though. It's just a number. :colbert:



FF XII was terrible and I don't understand this forums love for it. Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VI are clearly better games.

&

Vaan

You just listed VI twice :D

And what exactly is wrong with a level-headed supporting protagonist? Vaan Tidus is easily the most mature "lead" from the post-VI FFs, if only for the fact that he is the one who influences Ashe Yuna to give up on chasing the memory of her husband her old beliefs and look to the future for another way, past the Occuria's Church of Yevon's influence, not destroy Archadia herself and bring actual peace to the land.

If you're gonna give Vaan credit for his actions, gotta give Tidus credit for his, too.

I would, if X would stop banging that huge hammer against my head.

Can't give Tidus, or any of FFX for that matter, credit for subtlety. XII (arguably) was much more subtle in that regard, which makes it better by wide margin, IMO.

Cuchulainn
09-01-2013, 11:56 AM
I think the things that make it the best for me are the things that make it the worst for others.

I just feel it a very mature, well-thoughtout game that that the balls to take a few risks with the gameplay. The ATB had to go. I know traditionalists still bang on about it but it was dating very fast.

Vaan was slightly annoying but he's honestly the only one who can be. Everyone else are fanmtastic characters.

Final Fantasy X had one decent protagonist, Auron. That's it. The others were complete balls. You had the most annoying lead ever in Tidus, supported by this rag-tag cast of complete imbeciles. Wakka who managed to annoy and insult every Pacific Islander who played it. A character who was morally against machina all his life who after one tame conversation suddenly changed his views. Lulu who was some goth chick with a fucking doll she nursed as a baby somehow on an island full of ppl in grass skirts (plus she had too many belts), then Rikku who was basically every jailbait lovers dream whos sole purpose there was to titilate horny gamers. The 'world' was sparce and pathetic, the boss was a joke, and the whole story was just terrible. It really was.

I enjoyed 9 a lot even though that story was convoluted madness, 8 was just unbearable, 7 was pretty good and 6 is a fanboy favorite of mine but for nostalgic reasons rather than how good it actually is.

It's time 12 gotb the credit it deserved it really is.

Karifean
09-01-2013, 12:24 PM
I'm starting to feel like the only one who hardly cares about the appearance of characters at all.

I guess I just don't see it. Neither did Wakka's change of heart seem forced, sudden or unnatural to me (come on, he was watching genocide occur), nor did Rikku ever feel unnecessary. Nor do I see what exactly makes Auron so much better than the others. Don't get me wrong, he's a great character, but not a stand-alone. But whatever, it's not like I'm gonna change your view on these things.

About the ATB having to go, I have to disagree. We just came from X-2, the game with hands down the best ATB application in the series - hard to say it was "dating". Still very much enjoyed XII's different take on it, though. Actually, during combat X-2 and XII are very similar, it's the initiation of combat that is completely different. I still think they could go a long way with ATB, but I don't dislike the change either.

Edge7
09-02-2013, 03:36 AM
I'm typically on Cuchulainn's side. I guess I developed a greater appreciation for Ivalice after I played Vagrant Story and a third of FF Tactics. I find XII's lack of story-driven, overwrought romance to be refreshing. The game's got it's problems, and Vaan clearly seems like he's just thrown into every cutscene after Basch (who was originally supposed to be the main character) joins the party.

Also, I'm sorry Maybee; Balthier is awesome. I feel like it's okay that he's a cocksure arrogant bastard because it balances well with the fact that unlike other characters who are cocky and arrogant (ie; Irvinne and, admittedly, my namesake), Balthier always keeps his cool and constantly has a plan. Can't really defend Fran's wardrobe though, although I can say I'd take a full-grown playboy bunny for sex appeal than a 15/17 year old girl any day (Not bashing X, just saying that while we're on the subject of fan service...).

maybee
09-02-2013, 08:52 AM
You just listed VI twice :D

Fudgecakes. I meant Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy VI




And what exactly is wrong with a level-headed supporting protagonist? Vaan is easily the most mature "lead" (yeah, I know he isn't actually one, but you get the picture) from the post-VI FFs,

I disagree because Vaan wasn't really much of a main character at all and when Zidane stops being flirty he can he very mature and wise for his age by being unselfish and learning that the world isn't completely black/ white.
The game would of been so much better if Ashe took the lead because really she had more to do with the game than Vaan did and she was one of the games better characters.

So the game can't be the best because it's too easily flawed unlike Final Fantasy IV who had Cecil one of the best Final Fantasy male leads of all time due to his kindness and how he basically removed what he disliked about himself and therefore becoming a stronger character and being able to forgive Kain and Golbez.

And Final Fantasy VI has Terra the first female Final Fantasy lead. While she starts out confused due to basically being used as a tool by Kefka; as soon as she recovers her memory she becomes a girl of action, that beliefs that she can help save the world from Kefka due to her being born half Esper. She doesn't really back down because of what occurred to her and her parents, instead she gets up and fights back. She sometimes backs away leading to somebody like Locke or Edgar to protect her, but she was still amazing because of her determination to believe that she could do it.

Vaan ?

Derp- Derp- Derp I want to become a Sky Pirate. How old are you Fran ? Why is Fran mad about me asking what her age was ? Derp- Derp- Derp. :greenie:



if only for the fact that he is the one who influences Ashe to give up on chasing the memory of her husband and look to the future, past the Occuria's influence, not destroy Archadia and bring actual peace to the land.

I don't think I got that far. The furthest I've gotten is Fran's home with all the bunny females from memory. But I'm glad that he begins to something. Though I still think that Cecil and Terra completely defeat Vaan when it comes to main leaders.




EDIT: Also, sadly, age is not just a number. That was meant as a joke, since I myself am not much older than you, but there are certain things that we are oblivious to until we are older. Thus, our tastes get refined once we get older. Still not saying everyone will like XII once they age, though :D

Sort of true ? I hated Final Fantasy VI when I was younger due to always being stuck on the dungeons like ZoZo and That Floating Continent and also the huge downgrade on graphics. But these days Final Fantasy VI and I are like best friends.

But I've tried and played Final Fantasy XII many times, many different ages, always getting older and still always hate it no many times I've wanted too or tried or anything. It's not my cup of tea and I don't see what it's lovers see in it and holding it higher than Final Fantasy games like Final Fantasy 4 and Final Fantasy 6 baffle me. Really ? Really ?!!

Okay then. You need to go see a Doctor asap. :greenie:

I mean Final Fantasy XII

: Has no decent Main Lead
: Characters feel dry, empty minus a short few like Larsa and Ashe. Most of the mains feel like tag-alongs
: System that doesn't award you for using it, instead punishes you by beginning to hold your hand then do all the work for you.
: Dry, empty storyline.
: Nothing really fun or exciting that makes you wake up per say. Example FF VII's Gold Saucer, Motorbike Chase etc.
: Terrible Villain Vayne. This is the series that has created Villains like Kuja, Kefka and Paramecia.

Each Final Fantasy game has flaws even masterpieces like FF 6 but FF 12 has too many important drawbacks to imo back it crowing King of the series. I barely just hold it above Final Fantasy II let alone even making it into the good-games list.



Also, I'm sorry Maybee; Balthier is awesome. I feel like it's okay that he's a cocksure arrogant bastard because it balances well with the fact that unlike other characters who are cocky and arrogant (ie; Irvinne and, admittedly, my namesake), Balthier always keeps his cool and constantly has a plan.

You can still be like that and not act you're the second coming of Jesus you know.

Example Auron, Zidane, Edgar. While they were soft of confident they didn't have a ego that would put Kayne West to shame. :greenie:



Can't really defend Fran's wardrobe though, although I can say I'd take a full-grown playboy bunny for sex appeal than a 15/17 year old girl any day (Not bashing X, just saying that while we're on the subject of fan service...).

Yuna and Rikku do age and get older though.

TrollHunter
09-02-2013, 09:08 AM
I disagree because Vaan wasn't really much of a main character at all and when Zidane stops being flirty he can he very mature and wise for his age by being unselfish and learning that the world isn't completely black/ white.
The game would of been so much better if Ashe took the lead because really she had more to do with the game than Vaan did and she was one of the games better characters.

So the game can't be the best because it's too easily flawed unlike Final Fantasy IV who had Cecil one of the best Final Fantasy male leads of all time due to his kindness and how he basically removed what he disliked about himself and therefore becoming a stronger character and being able to forgive Kain and Golbez.

And Final Fantasy VI has Terra the first female Final Fantasy lead. While she starts out confused due to basically being used as a tool by Kefka; as soon as she recovers her memory she becomes a girl of action, that beliefs that she can help save the world from Kefka due to her being born half Esper. She doesn't really back down because of what occurred to her and her parents, instead she gets up and fights back. She sometimes backs away leading to somebody like Locke or Edgar to protect her, but she was still amazing because of her determination to believe that she could do it.

Vaan ?

Derp- Derp- Derp I want to become a Sky Pirate. How old are you Fran ? Why is Fran mad about me asking what her age was ? Derp- Derp- Derp. :greenie:


Oh, there's you're problem. You see Vaan as the lead. You control vaan, but he is not the lead of the story. Vaan is a character that was thrown into the fray against his will and his reactions are quite realistic in my eyes.
But he is not the lead.
One could argue that Ashe is the lead, or that balthier is, or basche... it's all up to your interpretation. All of the characters in this game have deep well-developed arcs that are well written and well done. Vaan may be purely along for the ride, but he matures greatly as the story goes on and he turns into quite the likable character. The only character who kind of feels out of place is penelo, but she's there to watch after vaan so it still makes sense.

Also, I would like it if you would stop calling people "insane" or telling them to "see a doctor". I feel like it discredits your arguments and makes it far more difficult for me to take you seriously. You don't have to, but I would greatly appreciate it.


ALSO, I loved Vayne as a villain. He tackled things from a primarily political standpoint, and I found that to be extremely refreshing. His dialogue is also so good. I found him threatening not because he could cast really powerful magics, but because he was a man with an insane amount of influence and he was being manipulated/led astray.
One could argue that seymour was very similar... but I just never found him to be that great of a villain honestly. His character design/voice/stupid relationship with yuna made me lose all care with him as a character. I was more scared of his boss fights than his influence. But again, that's just my taste.

maybee
09-02-2013, 09:21 AM
Oh, there's you're problem. You see Vaan as the lead. You control vaan, but he is not the lead of the story. Vaan is a character that was thrown into the fray against his will and his reactions are quite realistic in my eyes.
But he is not the lead.
One could argue that Ashe is the lead, or that balthier is, or basche... it's all up to your interpretation. All of the characters in this game have deep well-developed arcs that are well written and well done. Vaan may be purely along for the ride, but he matures greatly as the story goes on and he turns into quite the likable character. The only character who kind of feels out of place is penelo, but she's there to watch after vaan so it still makes sense.

I find that as a bit of excuse for one of Final Fantasy XII's main fails and faults. If it was meant to be through Vaan's eyes or POV that would of made it more that way or in that design. Example the Driving Car Games were you don't see the driver just see what is in front of you, you just see the world through what is meant to be the drivers eyes.

No they made Vaan for fanservice reasons. They believed that the game would sell better if they had a character aimed towards the young female fangirls. Hence why they removed the originally planned lead for Vaan.

Vaan is the lead. Sorry. Square- Enix made him the lead to make FF XII more attractive to the fangirls. It worked well in Japan were Vaan is loved, however America/ Europe/ Aus/ NZ not so much.



Also, I would like it if you would stop calling people "insane" or telling them to "see a doctor". I feel like it discredits your arguments and makes it far more difficult for me to take you seriously. You don't have to, but I would greatly appreciate it.

I was joking but alright.



ALSO, I loved Vayne as a villain. He tackled things from a primarily political standpoint, and I found that to be extremely refreshing. His dialogue is also so good. I found him threatening not because he could cast really powerful magics, but because he was a man with an insane amount of influence and he was being manipulated/led astray.

He did nothing really towards the game. He didn't really threaten the heroes or Vaan much or even be a threat towards the heroes or Vaan. He just sat down on his chair, did a few speeches and that's it. Dr Cid made more of a impact. To be a good badguy you have to be a good threat towards the main character and his/her friends. Hence why Kefka and Sephiroth are so beloved because they really try and wrestle and break down Cloud and Terra. Vayne could of been a NPC and nothing much would of changed.



One could argue that seymour was very similar... but I just never found him to be that great of a villain honestly. His character design/voice/stupid relationship with yuna made me lose all care with him as a character. I was more scared of his boss fights than his influence. But again, that's just my taste.

Seymour was actually a good threat towards Tidus and Yuna though. Seymour was actually a decent Villain, not the best, but good enough. However nobody respects him like Kuja because of his more aimed at the Eastern players character design.

TrollHunter
09-02-2013, 09:29 AM
But vayne was a good threat towards them. He was a threat towards their entire COUNTRY. You're looking at the villain from too much of a "villain appears shoots them with lightning and runs off laughing" type of villain. Vayne isnt like that. He works behind the scenes and manipulates those with power to get his way. He's a man looking for war and conquest, he doesnt have time to stalk and follow the rag-tag group on his own. Hell, if he showed up in person a lot I'd see that as out of character. A villain doesn't need a bunch of boss-fights to be good.

And I know you were joking, but I still see it as a tasteless and unfunny joke.

Vaan was made to be the relate-able rebellious teenage lead. For some he succeeded, for others he failed. While his character design was questionable, I found his character endearing. He was extremely naive, and I think they played it well. He let his emotions carry him too much at first, but he grew a LOT as the game went on. So, hell, even if we want to consider him the lead he isn't that bad at all.
As it stands, I consider Ashe the lead. She does much of the leading, and she is extremely essential to the plot as well. Her character was handled beautifully, and the ONLY criticism I have for her is the mini-skirt which I found to be quite silly.

maybee
09-02-2013, 11:15 AM
But vayne was a good threat towards them. He was a threat towards their entire COUNTRY. You're looking at the villain from too much of a "villain appears shoots them with lightning and runs off laughing" type of villain. Vayne isnt like that. He works behind the scenes and manipulates those with power to get his way. He's a man looking for war and conquest, he doesnt have time to stalk and follow the rag-tag group on his own. Hell, if he showed up in person a lot I'd see that as out of character. A villain doesn't need a bunch of boss-fights to be good.

I disagree because you can still be a threat to the whole country and still be interesting example Kefka. He managed to waltz in between being a threat towards Terra, Celes etc and yet managed to damage the world and even keep the whole world under his thumb per say.

Again DR Cid did a million times better job of playing the badguy role.

Paramecia- Did some background evil like Vayne, but the game drew him into focus and made him a threat to the heroes and Firion

Golbez- Again did background work, but the game drew him in and made sure that Cecil and him met each other and the game made damn sure that Cecil had a good reason to despise him and then later forgive.

Ex-Death- Again background work, then was free from his prison and again made sure that he was a threat towards Bartz and the group. Again the game made damn sure that Bartz loathed his tree-like guts.

Kefka- Already explained.

Sephiroth- Was pretty important to Cloud's character by making sure that Cloud and Seph sort of knew each other, made sure that Seph had a reason to despise Cloud and view him as nothing but a doll used for his evil plans, and the fear/ hate Cloud has for Sephiroth

Ulti- Spends 90 per cent of the game in the background however she's still a threat with Squall and Rinoa by the people that she uses and Rinoa, Squall's lover. You only in person met her once but by using other people Squall hates her and she's made a impact. Maybe not the best, but more interesting than Vayne.

Kuja- Don't really met him to the end of CD 1 and Zidane and Kuja don't really speak to each other in person till the very end of CD 2 so it takes about two discs for Zidane and Kuja to met and chat to each other and yet Zidane already hates his guts by what he's done to the world and his friends.

Seymour- Met him in Luca and we are made to feel unsure about his character ( even though most FF players know that he's no good when we first meet the guy) starts being a threat by making Yuna feel really uncomfortable and then later the whole Marriage Arc. Becomes a interesting villain by wanting to use Yuna's naive nature to gain his goals. After the Marriage Arc Seymour still is a impact by using his Zombie like status to try and gain control of the world and wanting to use Sin to again, gain control of the world.

And Vayne ?

Stays in the background pretty much, makes a couple of evil ha-ha speeches and then final boss and yeah; ending plays as watched through a YouTube Lets Play.



And I know you were joking, but I still see it as a tasteless and unfunny joke.

Fair enough though I am sort of annoyed because FF VIII gets treated like a piece of trash that came out of the rubbish bin by most Forum members here. Notice the " Emo Love Story " I know that's a FF VIII insult.

I'm just sick of it. Even the thread I made that was designed to be protected by all the hate that game gets here got attacked by hate. So I am very annoyed that this forum adores to place FF XII on a pedestal and yet enjoy kicking FF VIII in the balls. Like FF XII fine, dislike FF VIII fine. But act like it's the God of all games and act like FF VIII is a bowl of spew junk; no that's annoying.

So hence the passive-aggressiveness.



Vaan was made to be the relate-able rebellious teenage lead. For some he succeeded, for others he failed. While his character design was questionable, I found his character endearing. He was extremely naive, and I think they played it well. He let his emotions carry him too much at first, but he grew a LOT as the game went on. So, hell, even if we want to consider him the lead he isn't that bad at all.

Fair enough. I'm not saying that you can't like the man, just saying that Imo he was terrible and since Tidus is getting so much bashing here, again I was annoyed. Because imo Tidus doesn't deserve all the bashing that he gets, and at least he had decent character development unlike Vaan who was quite empty in compassion. Tidus felt human, Vaan just felt like he was half there and was missing alot of character growth and personality. Okay he does grow, but not as much as say Cloud or Squall or Cecil or Zidane. Even Lightning has some decent growth as she changes to a aggressive ex-Solider to a more calm and understandable warrior.



As it stands, I consider Ashe the lead. She does much of the leading, and she is extremely essential to the plot as well. Her character was handled beautifully, and the ONLY criticism I have for her is the mini-skirt which I found to be quite silly.

Agree

TrollHunter
09-02-2013, 06:01 PM
Golbez - As much as I love FFIV they REALLY overused the mind-control gimmick and I found that more frustrating than anything else. He was still a decent villain though.

Though I will concede for the most part. I was arguing at roughly 4am, so I wasn't really making the best points. Though that doesnt mean I'm done here.

Vayne actually made some pretty interesting speeches, and especially his first one in dalmasca doesn't even paint him like a bad guy at all.
Final Fantasy XII - Vayne Solidor Speech - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFAl51qtjEM)

And here's a great video showing the 3 main "villains" Cid vayne and venat who I'm really starting to see as the real villain. It's been a long time since I've played FFXII, so I apologize.
Final Fantasy 12 - Vayne Meets Venat - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cibQCyJr4Qs)

Here's a scene with vayne and the emperor
Final Fantasy 12 - Vayne And The Emperor Gramis - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BErnhYzozro)

Here's one where the judges talk about vayne, and some pretty interesting backstory is revealed.
Final Fantasy 12 - The Judges - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e329dFLZFjU)

Vayne isn't really shown as a serious badguy until you hear some backstory and analyze his character a bit. He forgoes many common villainous tropes (though he does still have others) and becomes something great in my opinion.
I still really enjoyed vayne, and I find him to be quite a deep character.

maybee
09-03-2013, 07:00 AM
Golbez - As much as I love FFIV they REALLY overused the mind-control gimmick

The game came out in 1991 so the mind control gimmick was a bit more fresh so imo it's forgivable. And it's only Kain and Theodore that get controlled.



Though I will concede for the most part. I was arguing at roughly 4am, so I wasn't really making the best points. Though that doesnt mean I'm done here

Fair enough




Vayne isn't really shown as a serious badguy until you hear some backstory and analyze his character a bit. He forgoes many common villainous tropes (though he does still have others) and becomes something great in my opinion.
I still really enjoyed vayne, and I find him to be quite a deep character.

Fair enough though I still find him to a bore and a terrible badguy. He's basically Seymour; while easier to take seriously he enjoys playing with the minds of the country acting as the good guy when really he's not. It's been done before and better minus his character design by Seymour. Then again Vayne looks dreadful too, it looks like he really, really needs a haircut.

comma
09-03-2013, 07:30 AM
Final Fantasy XII has an engrossing backstory, a richly detailed world, some very interesting characters, a new and mostly successful battle system for an offline RPG, vibrant graphics and sound, and a very unique scope of plot. For the last point, I mean you get the sense that you're not the only interesting group of people in the world doing things, which I think was unprecedented in Final Fantasy and most other RPGs. There are machinations constantly working for and against your goals that have significance for ambitions other than your party's. I think the scope was probably the most distinguished and involving characteristic of the game, and the primary thing that most people think sets it apart.

All that said, one serious flaw, and I mean game-breaking, is the lack of rhythm in the plot. Yeah, the basic premise is set up, and there are problems, complications, and goals, but the plot rarely feels cohesive. Certain large parts of the game drag. New characters and enemies come and go without any emotional attachment, and objectives usually feel like chores rather than having significance to the story. I feel partially ashamed but mostly justified in saying that I never finished it. It had everything but narrative momentum.

Synoptikal
09-03-2013, 08:19 AM
I felt like the entire game was a chore. I was excited about it when I heard about it all. I was happy about the new battle system and was eager to try it out.

Here's where I find problems. These are just my opinions, so yeah.

I didn't like the lack of a DEFINED main character. Yes, there were candidates to be main character but the fact there is no defined main character annoys me. You can have story development on all your characters and still have one person as the leader.

I didn't like the story. It had, as comma very well put it, no rhythm. The characters would accomplish something and announce the next step of their plan and then I would think "Okay, why are we doing this?"

I didn't like that the side-quests were so involved in the main plot. It's in the name: SIDE-quests. They should be something you do optionally. On the side. If you wanted to succeed at this game, you more or less HAD to go on hunts.

Basically, my biggest problem with the game (and with Final Fantasy on the whole now) is the fact that they are straying from the formula that made them famous. Look back at the other games. Final Fantasy VII. Were the graphics good? Not particularly. Was the story good? Phenomenal! Final Fantasy IV. Graphics? Basic. Story. Engaging and gripping. IX. Graphics? A step back from VIII to be sure. Story? Amazing. The J-RPG was about the story, not the graphics. Nowadays, they've made it too much about breaking graphical grounds than about the story. Sure, XII and XIII looked amazing but the story and characters are soooooo forgettable.

Also, best character in XII is CLEARLY Gabranth.

And now a fun fact: I bought XII on day one. I still haven't completed it. (Not aided by the fact that my PS2 is broken. But I'd replace it for Kingdom Hearts first, over XII.)

Spooniest
09-03-2013, 08:36 AM
Good God I don't know who has time to read such long posts

Final Fantasy XII is good!

Synoptikal
09-03-2013, 09:06 AM
Good God I don't know who has time to read such long posts

Final Fantasy XII is good!

Good? Yes. Great? No. Groundbreaking? Not really.

Best game in the series? Definitely not.

Spooniest
09-03-2013, 09:10 AM
Why does everyone have to be such an extremist?

It's a good game! Isn't that enough?

Synoptikal
09-03-2013, 09:18 AM
I'm not being an extremist. I already admitted that I think it's good. I just don't believe it to be deserving of the praise that others might give it.

All games have their good and bad points. And everyone has different tastes. Everyone wants to see different things from the series. But as the old adage goes...

"You can please some of the people some of the time; all of the people some of the time; some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

Now, pardon me, while I go wait for Project Phoenix to get finished.

Spooniest
09-03-2013, 09:20 AM
I'm bugged out tonight.

Shit's pretty bleak around here.

Fynn
09-03-2013, 10:48 AM
Don't worry :) I love XII, although it does have some flaws. I still think it has the least flaws, along with VI and IX. De gustibus non est disputandum. :D

Huckleberry Quin
09-03-2013, 01:18 PM
That's Latin for "don't try to express an opinion on stuff that's clearly gone over your head".

Spooniest
09-03-2013, 01:27 PM
One might have said so in the first place

maybee
09-03-2013, 03:32 PM
Good God I don't know who has time to read such long posts

Final Fantasy XII is good!

Good? Yes. Great? No. Groundbreaking? Not really.

Best game in the series? Definitely not.

Finally ! Somebody else here that doesn't place XII on a God Tier here on these Forums.

IMO this Forum should be re-named to Kiss Me Goodbye Final Fantasy; not Eyes on Me. Or we really, really Worship FF XII are are blind to it's major flaws, or try and excuse them.

If FF 8 had the tag-along like main lead and hint but not really at say.... Quistis... being the lead but not really, it would get bashed to Kingdom Come. :greenie:


Don't worry :) I love XII, although it does have some flaws

Yes ! That's what I'm trying to point out here ! That it has too many flaws to be the best ! Than-



I still think it has the least flaws

Nevermind. :roll2

Fynn
09-03-2013, 04:27 PM
You're walking a thin line, maybee. I thought we were friends and here you are, being so mean to me for an asinine reason.

Guess what? I love VIII and I love II. I am sorry that you felt insulted by people not liking it. But I do, so your taking it out on me is hugely unfair.

Like I said earlier (in Latin :D), everybody has their own taste. I don't understand why people hold X in such high regard, but that's their choice. I won't go calling them idiots, especially when they give me a reason why they like it. I may disagree, but I accept it. In the same vein I can declare XII is the best thing since sliced bread and you can disagree, naturally.

But for God's sake, show some respect! I know you're bitter that people don't like VIII around here, but this is not the place to take that all out and call people idiots.

Synoptikal
09-03-2013, 04:54 PM
You're walking a thin line, maybee. I thought we were friends and here you are, being so mean to me for an asinine reason.

Guess what? I love VIII and I love II. I am sorry that you felt insulted by people not liking it. But I do, so your taking it out on me is hugely unfair.

Like I said earlier (in Latin :D), everybody has their own taste. I don't understand why people hold X in such high regard, but that's their choice. I won't go calling them idiots, especially when they give me a reason why they like it. I may disagree, but I accept it. In the same vein I can declare XII is the best thing since sliced bread and you can disagree, naturally.

But for God's sake, show some respect! I know you're bitter that people don't like VIII around here, but this is not the place to take that all out and call people idiots.

Pardon the language here but this is the best way to say it...

y-p33001J-0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-p33001J-0)

Huckleberry Quin
09-03-2013, 05:13 PM
In China. Can't see video. Genuinely curious as to the nature of the joke. Please help.

Formalhaut
09-03-2013, 05:42 PM
Okay okay, I've read everything in here since it's inception, and so now I guess I'll give my opinion on the matter.

For me, XII is one of my favourite Final Fantasies, but it is far from what I'd call 'godly'. In fact, I'd be very wary calling any game 'god-tier', because once you label a game that you assume it to be perfect, and no game is perfect. Besides, I'm not one for hyperbole anyway.

For me, XII is a game that tried changing the formula, and for the most part, I very much appreciate it. The battle system was pretty dynamic and different, especially coming after X's rather static system which I didn't love so much. I personally liked the gambit system, in so far that you can automate the more 'tiring' parts of battle, like constantly scrolling through menus, while still giving you overall control through the use of overrides and turning them off if you wanted. I liked them, and it works with XII. But again, there are flaws. The main one for me is how XII really underpowered Magic. While certainly, in the early to middle game, Magick certainly has uses, by the time you get the stronger weapons and can start chaining and berserking with the best of them, Magick is ponderous, and also suffers from the inherent lag of the battle system. In XII, there is a quirk called 'Effect Capcity', which governs how many abilities can be used simultaneously. Spells with the maximum capacity of 8 (Holy, Flare, all the good ones) can only be cast when no other abilities are taking place. This means Ashe can be waiting quite a long time just to cast Scathe. Of course, normal attacks can be used regardless, making them just so much better to use most of the time.

But that's just the battle system. In terms of story, I like the mature, understated nature of it. You rarely actually meet Vayne, but you are told of his menace throughout from cut-scenes and mere talk of the empire. It is as someone here said: he is a great villain because he doesn't show all his cards at once, blasting magick or what have you. He's more than content to just skulk in the background and turn wheels. Whether or not that was a wise choice, is another debate, but I really liked Vayne. But flaws! More flaws. The pacing of the game is somewhat one to be desired. It's strong in some points, and weak in others. After a good beginning, the plot slows during the Nalbina Dungeons, before picking up with Penelo's 'rescue', and then flatlining in the Sandsea. It's definitely a rollercoaster ride, and I understand people who haven't continued the story because they've hit a bit of stagnation. It's a slow burner of a story to be sure, but it does build and build, and, overall, despite it's pacing issues, it is good.

But I do agree that there is a lack of a definite main character. While sure, the trimurti of Ashe, Balthier and Basch seem to be the main three players in the game (more leaning towards Ashe as the most important of the three) the fact that they couldn't get the main character right in the first place is a nagging annoyance. Never has a official main character been so fundamentally useless. Sure, Vaan does have his good points. He is the main character during the beginning sections of the game, assists Ashe from time to time with her 'visions' and generally fulfils the 'clueless young guy' slot (preceded by Tidus, of course), but yeah, I never cared for Vaan. He is our 'eyes', but that alone isn't enough to make him the main character, not by a long shot. I do agree with people bemoaning this, because it is a mistake I feel. Ashe would have made a great main character. Heck, she is the de facto main character!

I'm rambling now. But I'll end with the side-quests. I rather liked them! I never felt particularly pressured to do any of the hunts or other sidequests, and to be honest, I find it difficult to not casually do some hunts anyway. I like the story behind the plight of the petitioner, and how happy you make him or her after smiting the mark. I refute this point very much so. The side-quests were one of the best bits of the game. It made it so... vast. Of course, here is another flaw that I'll concede. You often have so many side-quests that the story stagnates because you're busy doing everything! If you're a perfectionist like me, you do everything as and when you can, and well, I spend a good few hours doing everything I can before marching on. The replayability is great too with so many good challenges you can self-impose. 122333, or No Licence board, or Solo Challenge, etc.

But I've said, far, far, far too much. In brief, while I certainly understand and accept some of the flaws of XII, for me, at least, it is a good game. Naturally, everyone is different, and their view of what a good game should be will vary. That's why I say no game can be a god-tier game. Everyone's different.

TrollHunter
09-03-2013, 07:06 PM
Okay okay, I've read everything in here since it's inception, and so now I guess I'll give my opinion on the matter.

For me, XII is one of my favourite Final Fantasies, but it is far from what I'd call 'godly'. In fact, I'd be very wary calling any game 'god-tier', because once you label a game that you assume it to be perfect, and no game is perfect. Besides, I'm not one for hyperbole anyway.

For me, XII is a game that tried changing the formula, and for the most part, I very much appreciate it. The battle system was pretty dynamic and different, especially coming after X's rather static system which I didn't love so much. I personally liked the gambit system, in so far that you can automate the more 'tiring' parts of battle, like constantly scrolling through menus, while still giving you overall control through the use of overrides and turning them off if you wanted. I liked them, and it works with XII. But again, there are flaws. The main one for me is how XII really underpowered Magic. While certainly, in the early to middle game, Magick certainly has uses, by the time you get the stronger weapons and can start chaining and berserking with the best of them, Magick is ponderous, and also suffers from the inherent lag of the battle system. In XII, there is a quirk called 'Effect Capcity', which governs how many abilities can be used simultaneously. Spells with the maximum capacity of 8 (Holy, Flare, all the good ones) can only be cast when no other abilities are taking place. This means Ashe can be waiting quite a long time just to cast Scathe. Of course, normal attacks can be used regardless, making them just so much better to use most of the time.

But that's just the battle system. In terms of story, I like the mature, understated nature of it. You rarely actually meet Vayne, but you are told of his menace throughout from cut-scenes and mere talk of the empire. It is as someone here said: he is a great villain because he doesn't show all his cards at once, blasting magick or what have you. He's more than content to just skulk in the background and turn wheels. Whether or not that was a wise choice, is another debate, but I really liked Vayne. But flaws! More flaws. The pacing of the game is somewhat one to be desired. It's strong in some points, and weak in others. After a good beginning, the plot slows during the Nalbina Dungeons, before picking up with Penelo's 'rescue', and then flatlining in the Sandsea. It's definitely a rollercoaster ride, and I understand people who haven't continued the story because they've hit a bit of stagnation. It's a slow burner of a story to be sure, but it does build and build, and, overall, despite it's pacing issues, it is good.

But I do agree that there is a lack of a definite main character. While sure, the trimurti of Ashe, Balthier and Basch seem to be the main three players in the game (more leaning towards Ashe as the most important of the three) the fact that they couldn't get the main character right in the first place is a nagging annoyance. Never has a official main character been so fundamentally useless. Sure, Vaan does have his good points. He is the main character during the beginning sections of the game, assists Ashe from time to time with her 'visions' and generally fulfils the 'clueless young guy' slot (preceded by Tidus, of course), but yeah, I never cared for Vaan. He is our 'eyes', but that alone isn't enough to make him the main character, not by a long shot. I do agree with people bemoaning this, because it is a mistake I feel. Ashe would have made a great main character. Heck, she is the de facto main character!

I'm rambling now. But I'll end with the side-quests. I rather liked them! I never felt particularly pressured to do any of the hunts or other sidequests, and to be honest, I find it difficult to not casually do some hunts anyway. I like the story behind the plight of the petitioner, and how happy you make him or her after smiting the mark. I refute this point very much so. The side-quests were one of the best bits of the game. It made it so... vast. Of course, here is another flaw that I'll concede. You often have so many side-quests that the story stagnates because you're busy doing everything! If you're a perfectionist like me, you do everything as and when you can, and well, I spend a good few hours doing everything I can before marching on. The replayability is great too with so many good challenges you can self-impose. 122333, or No Licence board, or Solo Challenge, etc.

But I've said, far, far, far too much. In brief, while I certainly understand and accept some of the flaws of XII, for me, at least, it is a good game. Naturally, everyone is different, and their view of what a good game should be will vary. That's why I say no game can be a god-tier game. Everyone's different.

For anyone wondering, these are my exact thoughts on the game. I've made many mini-reviews and apparently they all combined into this.

In summary: I can understand the flaws in this game and I am certainly not denying them. Many things are love-or-hate about this game, and I just happen to fall on the love side. Many arguments against this game are valid, as are ones rooting for it. It's called taste and preferences. We all have them. No I do not consider this game perfect or god-tier (actually... has anyone made that statement other than those accusing us?), but I do consider it my favorite final fantasy.
Though I will say, even though I may consider someones points valid, I will debate until they can understand where I'm coming from... and then probably debate some more because I find it enjoyable.

Just... avoid insulting others if you want to be even remotely credible in this discussion. We're all friends here, let's keep it civil.

Edge7
09-04-2013, 05:00 AM
Bottom line, I view Final Fantasy XII like I view Zelda 2: Adventure of Link: Is it a great entry in the series? Well, it works; the games got pacing issues, and can be a bit too spread out for its own good, but it's definitely not breaking any records. Does that prevent me from finding the game immensely refreshing? Of course not; part of the reason I love FFXII so much is because it feels so different from what I'm used to, and it works (for me, anyway).

maybee
09-04-2013, 06:43 AM
You're walking a thin line, maybee. I thought we were friends and here you are, being so mean to me for an asinine reason.

I'm not but I'm sorry if you feel this way. I was being mean towards XII not you White Wizard of Fynn.



Guess what? I love VIII and I love II. I am sorry that you felt insulted by people not liking it. But I do, so your taking it out on me is hugely unfair.

Again I'm NOT

I was taking it on THE GAME, NOT YOU



I won't go calling them idiots

What ?

I have never called you a idiot.

Now I feel like everybody here is twisting thing here because I don't like what they like which is extremely unfair and now making me out to be this terrible villain only because I don't like XII

In the post above which everybody hated; I only mentioned that this Forum is biased towards XII not that everybody here is a smurfing idiot. That most members here are blind towards XII flaws and place it on a God- Like Pedestal.

Never called you or anybody here dumb; Talk about twisting things.



I can declare XII is the best thing since sliced bread and you can disagree, naturally.

Thanks ? Not that I trust you or most people here now because I feel like If you disagree that XII isn't at least good you are some type of Villain that must be abused. Thanks guys.




But for God's sake, show some respect! I know you're bitter that people don't like VIII around here, but this is not the place to take that all out and call people idiots.

Oh my gosh ! I never said anything like that !!! WTF ?


Finally ! Somebody else here that doesn't place XII on a God Tier here on these Forums.

IMO this Forum should be re-named to Kiss Me Goodbye Final Fantasy; not Eyes on Me. Or we really, really Worship <acronym title="Final Fantasy XII" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; border-bottom-style: none; cursor: auto; border-top-width: 0px !important; border-right-width: 0px !important; border-left-width: 0px !important; border-top-style: none !important; border-right-style: none !important; border-left-style: none !important;">FF XII</acronym>are are blind to it's major flaws, or try and excuse them.

If <acronym title="Final Fantasy VIII" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'trebuchet ms'; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-bottom-style: none; cursor: auto; border-top-width: 0px !important; border-right-width: 0px !important; border-left-width: 0px !important; border-top-style: none !important; border-right-style: none !important; border-left-style: none !important;">FF 8</acronym> had the tag-along like main lead and hint but not really at say.... Quistis... being the lead but not really, it would get bashed to Kingdom Come.

NO IDIOT CALLING JUST CALLING THIS FORUM A LITTLE BIASED WHEN IT COMES TO FF 12 smurfCAKES



Yes ! That's what I'm trying to point out here ! That it has too many flaws to be the best ! Than-


http://home.eyesonff.com/styles/millie/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn http://home.eyesonff.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-xii/152010-am-i-going-nuts-3.html#post3309399)

I still think it has the least flaws





Nevermind. http://home.eyesonff.com/images/eoff_smilies/rolleyes2.gif

Again NO idiot calling. Just pointing out the blindness towards FF XII's massive collection of flaws. Enough to stink a Battleship. smurf I might as well go out to Hot Topic get some Make- Up and a Mixture of clothes and be Kefka because smurf... I'm just this terrible, awful, dreadful person that dislikes FF 12. smurf. My. Life.

And I stopped the crazy/ yeah you are crazy go see a Doctor things so yeah.

Huckleberry Quin
09-04-2013, 06:55 AM
They don't attack everyone who dislikes FFXII. Only you. Perhaps you should look into that.

Synoptikal
09-04-2013, 07:08 AM
Can't we all just get along? We all like Final Fantasy here. Let's put them all on a pedestal. :P

maybee
09-04-2013, 07:37 AM
They don't attack everyone who dislikes FFXII. Only you. Perhaps you should look into that.

I never called anybody a idiot and I stopped with the passive-aggressive jokes.

That was completely twisting things and is really, really extremely unfair.

In my OPINION some members here place FF XII on a Pedestal and in my OPINION FF XII is not the best, it's one of the worst and in a OPINION FF XII gets placed on a pedestal here even though it has some huge flaws; but they get ignored while FF VIII and FF X here get bashed to the moon and back for their huge flaws.

Get how I feel now ???

Go ahead rename me to that evil smurfing horrible evil bitch that hates FF XII. i don't care......

Huckleberry Quin
09-04-2013, 07:55 AM
I was just pointing out that this isn't the first time on EoFF that people have taken issue with your methods of discussing things. :gator:

maybee
09-04-2013, 07:59 AM
I was just pointing out that this isn't the first time on EoFF that people have taken issue with your methods of discussing things. :gator:

What did I do wrong before ?

Anyways you guys got want you all wanted. I'm leaving. I get the hints. Bye.

I missed this within all the drama but


Okay okay, I've read everything in here since it's inception, and so now I guess I'll give my opinion on the matter.

For me, XII is one of my favourite Final Fantasies, but it is far from what I'd call 'godly'. In fact, I'd be very wary calling any game 'god-tier', because once you label a game that you assume it to be perfect, and no game is perfect. Besides, I'm not one for hyperbole anyway.

For me, XII is a game that tried changing the formula, and for the most part, I very much appreciate it. The battle system was pretty dynamic and different, especially coming after X's rather static system which I didn't love so much. I personally liked the gambit system, in so far that you can automate the more 'tiring' parts of battle, like constantly scrolling through menus, while still giving you overall control through the use of overrides and turning them off if you wanted. I liked them, and it works with XII. But again, there are flaws. The main one for me is how XII really underpowered Magic. While certainly, in the early to middle game, Magick certainly has uses, by the time you get the stronger weapons and can start chaining and berserking with the best of them, Magick is ponderous, and also suffers from the inherent lag of the battle system. In XII, there is a quirk called 'Effect Capcity', which governs how many abilities can be used simultaneously. Spells with the maximum capacity of 8 (Holy, Flare, all the good ones) can only be cast when no other abilities are taking place. This means Ashe can be waiting quite a long time just to cast Scathe. Of course, normal attacks can be used regardless, making them just so much better to use most of the time.

But that's just the battle system. In terms of story, I like the mature, understated nature of it. You rarely actually meet Vayne, but you are told of his menace throughout from cut-scenes and mere talk of the empire. It is as someone here said: he is a great villain because he doesn't show all his cards at once, blasting magick or what have you. He's more than content to just skulk in the background and turn wheels. Whether or not that was a wise choice, is another debate, but I really liked Vayne. But flaws! More flaws. The pacing of the game is somewhat one to be desired. It's strong in some points, and weak in others. After a good beginning, the plot slows during the Nalbina Dungeons, before picking up with Penelo's 'rescue', and then flatlining in the Sandsea. It's definitely a rollercoaster ride, and I understand people who haven't continued the story because they've hit a bit of stagnation. It's a slow burner of a story to be sure, but it does build and build, and, overall, despite it's pacing issues, it is good.

But I do agree that there is a lack of a definite main character. While sure, the trimurti of Ashe, Balthier and Basch seem to be the main three players in the game (more leaning towards Ashe as the most important of the three) the fact that they couldn't get the main character right in the first place is a nagging annoyance. Never has a official main character been so fundamentally useless. Sure, Vaan does have his good points. He is the main character during the beginning sections of the game, assists Ashe from time to time with her 'visions' and generally fulfils the 'clueless young guy' slot (preceded by Tidus, of course), but yeah, I never cared for Vaan. He is our 'eyes', but that alone isn't enough to make him the main character, not by a long shot. I do agree with people bemoaning this, because it is a mistake I feel. Ashe would have made a great main character. Heck, she is the de facto main character!

I'm rambling now. But I'll end with the side-quests. I rather liked them! I never felt particularly pressured to do any of the hunts or other sidequests, and to be honest, I find it difficult to not casually do some hunts anyway. I like the story behind the plight of the petitioner, and how happy you make him or her after smiting the mark. I refute this point very much so. The side-quests were one of the best bits of the game. It made it so... vast. Of course, here is another flaw that I'll concede. You often have so many side-quests that the story stagnates because you're busy doing everything! If you're a perfectionist like me, you do everything as and when you can, and well, I spend a good few hours doing everything I can before marching on. The replayability is great too with so many good challenges you can self-impose. 122333, or No Licence board, or Solo Challenge, etc.

But I've said, far, far, far too much. In brief, while I certainly understand and accept some of the flaws of XII, for me, at least, it is a good game. Naturally, everyone is different, and their view of what a good game should be will vary. That's why I say no game can be a god-tier game. Everyone's different.

Awesome post <3

This is what I was so angry about. There's a huge difference between liking XII and putting XII on a pedestal. Love XII, fine. Everybody is different, but like said for the 100th time, putting it on a pedestal and being blind to it's flaws is extremely annoying.

But who cares what this evil bitch Maybee says.

comma
09-04-2013, 02:21 PM
Who puts it on a pedestal? I almost never see anyone claim it's the best FF game, but I see people claiming most of the other ones are the best constantly. Did you even read my post?

Fynn
09-04-2013, 03:00 PM
And how am I wrong even if I do think it's the best? That is actually subjective. Tastes differ and we won't be able to objectivelly determine which FF is the best, mainly due to the fact that what one person considers flawless, will be trash to another. So there is nothing wrong in saying any FF is the best.

People care too much about other people's opinions not matching theirs.

Formalhaut
09-04-2013, 05:47 PM
Come on guys, group hug. Moogle dance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upwhBceVdgs

Bolivar
09-04-2013, 09:27 PM
I like maybee and I enjoy reading her respectful and entertaining arguments, even when I disagree with them as here.

All I'm hearing is subjective. Whatever. I think XII had wonderful art, beautiful music, and fantastic writing at the script level. If you don't like the narrative pacing I recommend playing through the main story as fast as you can. It's amazing.

I will admit, it reversed all of VIIs innovations that blurred the line between cutscene and game play, putting back up the walls that Kitase worked so damn hard to break down. The global RPG genre and Square have never recovered since.

I'll leave with this: FFXII was extraordinarily ahead of its time. When you look at modern console RPGs, Japnese or Western, they all have something FFXII pioneered back in 2006. And none of them do it better than XII did. I can't play Mass Effect or Dragon Age just because of how much better the game design of similar concepts was in XII. The amount of control and strategy in the gambit system is jaw-dropping. But even if the game didn't have so many groundbreaking and revolutionary features, I'd probably still say it's arguably the best Final Fantasy of all time.

Cuchulainn
09-04-2013, 09:54 PM
*skips over every insanly long-winded post by maybee who seems genuinely angry ppl love this game for some insane reason*
*agrees with the normal ppl saying that XII is at the least, a great game*
*notices spooniest is banned*
*mind changes to wondering what they did*
*eats a jaffa cake*

TrollHunter
09-05-2013, 03:21 AM
This is what I was so angry about. There's a huge difference between liking XII and putting XII on a pedestal. Love XII, fine. Everybody is different, but like said for the 100th time, putting it on a pedestal and being blind to it's flaws is extremely annoying.

But who cares what this evil bitch Maybee says.



A) Please tone down the melodrama if you can. This is not the place for it. If you feel hurt or offended then I would recommend contacting an admin or staff or even making your own thread on the issue.
B) I don't recall anyone putting this game on a pedestal or ignoring it's flaws. Sure, maybe we were discussing what we loved about XII, but that doesnt mean we're ignoring what it does wrong. You complain about people putting words into your mouth when you do the same to everyone else in this thread.
As for issues with XII... Trust me, there are plenty of threads about that.


This thread is just turning into a bunch of silly drama... if we're done discussing FFXII here than I'm done.

Shauna
09-05-2013, 01:54 PM
Honest curiosity here: I've seen people in this here thread say that FFXII has great sidequests, but I've seen these same people slate FFXIII for having crap sidequests. Now, both of these in my mind have the same sidequests: Marks/Hunts. I am honestly just... bamboozled that one can be seen as better than the other when, to me, they are essentially the same thing.

Not trying to stir up any FFXII-FFXIII wars, just looking for some insight into why this is.

Cuchulainn
09-05-2013, 02:04 PM
Couldn't be me...I've never played XIII





This is what I was so angry about. There's a huge difference between liking XII and putting XII on a pedestal. Love XII, fine. Everybody is different, but like said for the 100th time, putting it on a pedestal and being blind to it's flaws is extremely annoying.

But who cares what this evil bitch Maybee says.



A) Please tone down the melodrama if you can. This is not the place for it. If you feel hurt or offended then I would recommend contacting an admin or staff or even making your own thread on the issue.
B) I don't recall anyone putting this game on a pedestal or ignoring it's flaws. Sure, maybe we were discussing what we loved about XII, but that doesnt mean we're ignoring what it does wrong. You complain about people putting words into your mouth when you do the same to everyone else in this thread.
As for issues with XII... Trust me, there are plenty of threads about that.


This thread is just turning into a bunch of silly drama... if we're done discussing FFXII here than I'm done.

There is quite a bit of angry drama from that direction isn't there.


Maybee calm down. These are opinions. No one can possibly be wrong. Many people rightfully agree this is one of the greatest in the series while you, verbosely, wrongfully and melodramatically say it is not.

Fynn
09-05-2013, 02:09 PM
Me neither. But from what I've heard it's all about XIII's mechanics not fitting the model at all, while XII was a good fit (probably because the idea was conceived with XII in mind and was just taped on to XIII). But that's pure speculation.

TrollHunter
09-05-2013, 03:04 PM
Honest curiosity here: I've seen people in this here thread say that FFXII has great sidequests, but I've seen these same people slate FFXIII for having crap sidequests. Now, both of these in my mind have the same sidequests: Marks/Hunts. I am honestly just... bamboozled that one can be seen as better than the other when, to me, they are essentially the same thing.

Not trying to stir up any FFXII-FFXIII wars, just looking for some insight into why this is.

That's actually a very interesting point I've never considered.
At least for me the hunts in XIII never felt super important because I was just talking to weird floating thing.
In XII every hunt was having a specific effect on the world around you (even if said effect never really took place) and many (like the one dragon attacking the airships) felt more severe and urgent.
That's one reason I just pulled out of my buttox. I liked the story behind the marks, XIII and its hunts didnt seem to grasp me in the same way.

Then again, I also havent played XIII in a LONG time so take thoughts on that with a grain of salt.

Bolivar
09-05-2013, 03:57 PM
It might also be because XII takes place in a huge, living/breathing open world right of the bat whereas XIII just drops you off in one 3/4s through the game and is just big and empty. TH hit the nail on the head that it was real people in everyday situations who needed your help.

Personally I feel like Mark Hunts in both games are cheap filler for side quests and RPGs should have you do more than just hitting things over the head. Monotonous combat aside, XII does fill out its side quest portfolio with exploring for Espers, searching for those hidden dungeons and finding out just how deep the rabbit hole goes ^_^

Shauna
09-05-2013, 04:34 PM
Fair enough, that distinction of actually dealing with NPCs is something I never considered. Didn't make too much difference for me, but admittedly that can make a truck-load of difference. :3

Slothy
09-06-2013, 03:18 AM
Cuch and I both like something. Who divided by zero?

But seriously, FFXII is one of the best RPG's of all time. Anyone that disagrees is welcome to meet me in the Thunderdome.

Shin Gouken
09-21-2013, 06:33 PM
I agree with TC in all points except one. Fran doesn't qualify as best protagonist of anything. Aside from being dressed like a hooker and fighting monsters in 6inch heels, she's little more than a plot device to help push the story forward. Seriously, if you need to know something, Frans your girl. She knows all about the Garif, she knows ledgends of the Nu Mou, she has ancient songs from her people, she smells the mist, she reads ancient text or simply just "senses" something. It's shameful how much she's abused for this purpose.

On the subject of why FFXII's sidequests are great and FFXIII's are poor, this is more to do with the execution. FFXIII has you read some dull text on a wall and then you simply go to the marker on the map and fight the same enemy you've faced several times already. The fact that the enemies location is marked for you just emphasizes the fact you're needlessly running from A to B to reach your battle. Compare this with FFXII. You find the guy who posts the bill and he'll tell you why he wants the mark slaying. You then have to figure out where he'll be and then figure out how to spawn it. You actually feel like you're hunting something rather than being told to fight yet another battle. The battles are also much more unique rather than the standard pallette swaps in FFXIII that generally behave the exact same way as before but with slightly higher stats.

Also, as already mentioned, Monster hunting is one sidequest amongst many. I'll be the first to admit that FFXII is a little heavy on the fetch quests, but the bonus dungeons, puzzles, hidden espers, rare treasures and pirates den are all good sidequests too. Fishing and pirate olympics are a bit meh, but there's something for everyone

As for Vaan, he's a massive, massive improvement over that whiney, tantrum throwing baby from FFX. Characters like that need to be in very short doses or better yet, how about we role play as a hard as nails badass like Auron and leave the whiney crybabies at home with their mummies.

Hollycat
09-21-2013, 06:49 PM
FF12 is my waifu.

Skyblade
09-22-2013, 12:17 AM
As for Vaan, he's a massive, massive improvement over that whiney, tantrum throwing baby from FFX. Characters like that need to be in very short doses or better yet, how about we role play as a hard as nails badass like Auron and leave the whiney crybabies at home with their mummies.

Vaan was a pointless non-entity as far as the story was concerned. Cut him from the game, you lose nothing, and he is the only character about whom you can say that.

Also, he participated in the "I'm Captain Basch" event, which is the most nonsensical, badly written thing in a Final Fantasy game, and makes the laughing scene from X look absolutely brilliant.

On a personal note, I found certain scenes with him in it even more painful than the worst of Tidus's scenes.

Shin Gouken
09-22-2013, 11:07 AM
As for Vaan, he's a massive, massive improvement over that whiney, tantrum throwing baby from FFX. Characters like that need to be in very short doses or better yet, how about we role play as a hard as nails badass like Auron and leave the whiney crybabies at home with their mummies.

Vaan was a pointless non-entity as far as the story was concerned. Cut him from the game, you lose nothing, and he is the only character about whom you can say that.

Also, he participated in the "I'm Captain Basch" event, which is the most nonsensical, badly written thing in a Final Fantasy game, and makes the laughing scene from X look absolutely brilliant.

On a personal note, I found certain scenes with him in it even more painful than the worst of Tidus's scenes.

No, you couldn't cut Vaan from the game and expect it to play out the same. Vaan's development is crucial because it directly affects Ashes development. If he was unable to overcome his own desire for revenge, he would not have been able to help Ashe overcome hers.

Tidus on the otherhand could easily be removed from FFX with zero consequences. Should he have not existed, Auron would still have guarded Yuna following his promise to Braska. He would still have lead them off the track to train against harder foes, he would still of witheld information from them so it could have a bigger emotional impact when the party found out, and he would still have given his warcry and lead the party against Yunalesca. Auron blames Yunalesca for the death of his two best friends, and after failing to get his revenge once before and being killed for his troubles, he comes back with a team of powerful guardians and tells them now is the time to fight... his plan from the beginning. Tidus doesn't change any of this.

The laughing scene is a million times worse than the "I'm Basch Fon Ronsenburg" scene. I can only assume you're trolling when you say such things.

Vaan gets exactly one outburst (when he's confronted by the man he believes to be his brothers murderer), he matures pretty fast after that, as a result of learning of the horrors in the world and being an active part in trying to free Dalmasca from the Empire. Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing for most of the game and he almost never has a reason like Vaan does for his one and only outburst.

If you want to hate on Vaan, i hope you'll be mature enough to talk about it in detail, unless you just hate him because he has painted abs, in which case i'd just be wasting my time talking to you.

Karifean
09-22-2013, 12:46 PM
Tidus on the otherhand could easily be removed from FFX with zero consequences. Should he have not existed, Auron would still have guarded Yuna following his promise to Braska. He would still have lead them off the track to train against harder foes, he would still of witheld information from them so it could have a bigger emotional impact when the party found out, and he would still have given his warcry and lead the party against Yunalesca. Auron blames Yunalesca for the death of his two best friends, and after failing to get his revenge once before and being killed for his troubles, he comes back with a team of powerful guardians and tells them now is the time to fight... his plan from the beginning. Tidus doesn't change any of this.

Considering Auron's dedication to his friends, I'd say if Yuna had decided to use the Final Aeon, he wouldn't have stopped her, because he swore to protect her no matter what. And without the efforts of Tidus and Rikku, I doubt Yuna would've swayed from her path. She might've even married Seymour willingly. If you're gonna credit Vaan for bringing Ashe away from her misled path, give Tidus some credit for doing the same for Yuna. And quite frankly, I doubt Rikku would've ever joined the pilgrimage had it not been for Tidus.



The laughing scene is a million times worse than the "I'm Basch Fon Ronsenburg" scene. I can only assume you're trolling when you say such things.

Really? You know, if you hate the laughing scene, fine, I can't change that. But at least accept that others may feel the same way about the whole Basch Fon Ronsenburg scenario.



Vaan gets exactly one outburst (when he's confronted by the man he believes to be his brothers murderer), he matures pretty fast after that, as a result of learning of the horrors in the world and being an active part in trying to free Dalmasca from the Empire. Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing for most of the game and he almost never has a reason like Vaan does for his one and only outburst.

I'll give you that Vaan has that one outburst, at least up until Pharos. And yet, I don't know what you're talking about with the whole Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing. Please elaborate.

Shin Gouken
09-22-2013, 09:13 PM
Considering Auron's dedication to his friends, I'd say if Yuna had decided to use the Final Aeon, he wouldn't have stopped her, because he swore to protect her no matter what.

Perhaps. On the other hand, he did desire revenge enough to try and kill Yunalesca once already and ended up with even more reason to want to kill her. I personally doubt he would sit and watch Yuna fall to the same fate as his two best friends. If this were true, he might have told Yuna of the Final Aeon before reaching Zanarkand.


And without the efforts of Tidus and Rikku, I doubt Yuna would've swayed from her path.

This is never implied. Yuna was always prepared to sacrafice herself for the calm but never, not once was it ever implied that she would sacrafice anyone else too.


She might've even married Seymour willingly.

This is about as silly as saying "Ba'Gamnan wouldn't have captured and held Penelo hostage if Vaan wasn't in FFXII". Side villians themselves are only there to keep interesting things happening when the main plot takes a break.


If you're gonna credit Vaan for bringing Ashe away from her misled path, give Tidus some credit for doing the same for Yuna.

I get that this was supposed to be his purpose but it's poorly executed. Tidus constantly tries to force on us that this is "his" story. Why are we reducing his role to influencing other characters if this is his story? The developers would have us believe that Tidus is the main character but you're now saying that he was there as an influence to Yuna. That would make him a side character at best.


And quite frankly, I doubt Rikku would've ever joined the pilgrimage had it not been for Tidus.

Again, you're saying Tidus is essential to the plot just because he fights in a random boss battle. Even if this wasn't a rather silly defense, i doubt the Al Bhed would have sent Rikku on her own and even if they did, she could have tried to flee rather than face it herself.


Really? You know, if you hate the laughing scene, fine, I can't change that. But at least accept that others may feel the same way about the whole Basch Fon Ronsenburg scenario.

I'm sure others will feel the same about the Basch Fon Ronsenburg scene as i feel about the laughing scene, but it doesn't change the fact that the laughing scene is far worse. Just type "Tidus" into google and "Tidus laugh" comes up in the list of popular searches. The laughing scene is infamous for its ability to grind at peoples sanity, the Basch Fon Ronsenburg is more of a minor annoyance at best.


I'll give you that Vaan has that one outburst, at least up until Pharos. And yet, I don't know what you're talking about with the whole Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing. Please elaborate.

Vaan doesn't have an "outburst" in the Pharos. His second and last outburst was in the Bahamut and is smurfin awesome because he runs at Vayne and guts him with a sword ^_^

Tidus' outbursts are more child like. Example, when he sees Auron in Luca ("This is all your fault, everything, EVERYTHING!"), disobeying the temple precepts ("Like i care" - like a child disobeying his parents <_<), unable to comprehend simple things ("If you want everything you'll end up ith nothing", "But i WANT everything"), general outbursts ("I'm gunna KILL that Seymour"), and possibly the only one i'd say is justified (Lulu, how could you, HOW COULD YOU) but this one is waaaay too late in the game to still be having outbursts.

You can justify his outbursts and childlike behaviour but that won't make them any less annoying and it only makes it worse when only the one character is having outbursts while everyone keeps their cool. Tidus is a moron, he has the emotional level of a child and has trouble controlling himself. He's not a suitable protagonist for an RPG, he's barely a suitable protagonist for a saturday morning cartoon... or a pornographic movie. He belongs with the support cast and his doses should be minimal

Karifean
09-22-2013, 09:48 PM
I was going to write a long reply until I came to this part...


You can justify his outbursts and childlike behaviour but that won't make them any less annoying and it only makes it worse when only the one character is having outbursts while everyone keeps their cool. Tidus is a moron, he has the emotional level of a child and has trouble controlling himself. He's not a suitable protagonist for an RPG, he's barely a suitable protagonist for a saturday morning cartoon... or a pornographic movie. He belongs with the support cast and his doses should be minimal

...and realized the folly. Obviously I can justify them - and obviously I can't do any more than that. You're bothered by Tidus' attitude - I'm not. I always try to see the reason and purpose behind someone's actions, both real people and RPG characters, and as such, I had no problem with Tidus. Characters/People don't always have to be badass, be positive, be able to pull through any situation without going down, understand everything instantly, etc. And over the course of the game, Tidus matures a lot as he begins to understand and feel for the people of Spira.

One thing though. I feel that Tidus, on a protagonist level, does his job very, very well. The world of Spira is expansive, complicated and has various cultures, precepts, customs and the like. And all of it must somehow be conveyed to the player. Enter Tidus, someone just like the player, who has no idea of anything about Spira. Through him, we get to see all sides of Spira. NPCs explain things to him, and as such, to us. And just like the player, Tidus develops some "outsider-perspectives": Are the Al Bhed really bad people? Should the teachings of Yevon really be as highly regarded as they are? All these kinds of questions that a Spiran normally wouldn't ever think about (see Tidus and Yuna's conversation on Mi'ihen Highroad). All the while still not being a blank slate, but his own personality with his own backstory and impressions. Even if most of the storyline isn't centered around him, he does a wonderful job as a protagonist. That is Tidus.

Skyblade
09-23-2013, 06:03 AM
No, you couldn't cut Vaan from the game and expect it to play out the same. Vaan's development is crucial because it directly affects Ashes development. If he was unable to overcome his own desire for revenge, he would not have been able to help Ashe overcome hers.

I felt his scenes with Ashe were awkward, unnecessary, and didn't actually change much about her character.


Tidus on the otherhand could easily be removed from FFX with zero consequences. Should he have not existed, Auron would still have guarded Yuna following his promise to Braska. He would still have lead them off the track to train against harder foes, he would still of witheld information from them so it could have a bigger emotional impact when the party found out, and he would still have given his warcry and lead the party against Yunalesca. Auron blames Yunalesca for the death of his two best friends, and after failing to get his revenge once before and being killed for his troubles, he comes back with a team of powerful guardians and tells them now is the time to fight... his plan from the beginning. Tidus doesn't change any of this.

No, you couldn't have. Auron is too conservative, probably because he was raised in Spira. Tidus is the character who causes Yuna to question her beliefs and ideals. She wouldn't have overthrown the yoke without him, because she never would have asked any of the questions which eventually caused her to rebel.

Also, when I said that Vaan was the only character who could be removed without affecting the story, I was referring to FFXII's characters (though I respect your right to make a similar accusation about X). Removing anyone else, even Penelo, would have changed the plot (due to her ties to Larsa). But Vaan does nothing.


The laughing scene is a million times worse than the "I'm Basch Fon Ronsenburg" scene. I can only assume you're trolling when you say such things.

The laughing scene, while incredibly awkward, makes sense, which is FAR more than you can say about the "I'm Captain Basch" scene.

I've posted it before, but I'll go ahead and give my defense of the laughing scene.


They're two teenagers stuck in very uncomfortable positions. Tidus, facing the reality that he'd never make it back to his home, and Yuna, facing her death when she summons the Final Aeon. Each is contemplating the end of all they've known, and neither really knows that the other is in the same situation at this point. The scene is uncomfortable and full of nervous energy, and the laugh is their way of releasing it. It sounds forced and unnatural because it was, and it was supposed to be. I thought it was quite well executed and fit perfectly with the characters and the situations they were in. And then we get to everyone else staring at them and calling them nuts, and that fit too. This sort of thing is one of the things I like about X's characters, and, while the scene may be awkward as hell, I wouldn't want it removed.

The "I'm Captain Basch" scene, in addition to be horribly acted, makes no sense whatsoever.


Vaan gets exactly one outburst (when he's confronted by the man he believes to be his brothers murderer), he matures pretty fast after that, as a result of learning of the horrors in the world and being an active part in trying to free Dalmasca from the Empire. Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing for most of the game and he almost never has a reason like Vaan does for his one and only outburst.

If you want to hate on Vaan, i hope you'll be mature enough to talk about it in detail, unless you just hate him because he has painted abs, in which case i'd just be wasting my time talking to you.

I hate him because he's a bland character who doesn't seem to develop naturally. You say he "matures pretty fast", but that's not necessarily a good thing. Tidus's whining served a point. His story was about him growing up, accepting the world and its problems. Vaan's "development" usually feels forced and unnatural. During the handful of scenes where he actually addresses his issues, it never feels like he's coming to terms with things, but rather that acceptance of the issues is just being magically fed into him. It's a problem he doesn't whine, because he has a lot of reason too. A character who has held on to those issues for that long should not get over things as quickly as he did.

Partially this is due to FFXII's game design. There's never a scene where a character walks away from the party and takes time to think. We never see Vaan actually process or work through any of his issues. FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX... In each of these games we get points where the party just thinks, about their situations. It never happens here.

Also, Ivalice's massive scope actually hurts the game here. It's so large, and so open, that scenes which show development are few and far between. When you spend three hours between one scene and another, it's hard for them to feel joined.


Vaan: How can he protect anything when he's dead? Was it different for Prince Rasler? Did that make sense? Hating the Empire, getting revenge.It's all I ever thought about. But I never did anything about it. I mean, I realized there was nothing I could do. It made me feel hollow, alone. And then I'd miss my brother. I'd say stuff like "I'm gonna be a sky pirate"... or some other stupid thing. Just anything to keep my mind off it. I was just - I was running away. I needed to get away from his death. That's why I followed you. Know what? I'm through with it. I'm through running. I'm ready to find my purpose. To find some real answers - some reasons. If I stick with you, I think I will.

Although, looking back at it, it has some merit, at the time I played it, I loathed this speech. It seemed to come from nowhere, it wrapped up too much too fast, and it felt unnatural. His free admissions didn't seem to fit his development at that point.

Shin Gouken
09-23-2013, 04:48 PM
Characters/People don't always have to be badass, be positive, be able to pull through any situation without going down, understand everything instantly, etc.

I understand this. I don't need every character in every RPG to be the epitome of cool. I'm one of the few people who stand up for Vaan! And, you know, Spiderman was a nerd, Frodo Baggins was a simple hobbit of the shire and even John Conner was a mouthy brat in T2. Not only do characters not always have to be cool and badass but simply being cool and badass does not instantly make you a good character. Neo from the Matrix movies is a terribly dull and uninteresting character despite being tradionally "cool".



One thing though. I feel that Tidus, on a protagonist level, does his job very, very well.

I fully agree that Tidus does his job well at being ignorant of Spiras culture which helps the player to learn their new surrounding naturally through Tidus. But he doesn't need to be stupid to be ignorant. He doesn't need to be bad at conducting his behaviour in a new place to make him stand out as an outsider.

And if this works as a valid defense for Tidus, it should also be true for Vaan. We view the world through Vaans eyes. We watch things happen as he does. Everything we learn to understand about Ivalice is what Vaan learns too because we are sharing the same experience. The devs even constantly remind you of this by having Vaan try to be involved in a scene and being told to "not interupt" as if to say "You're not actually involved, sit there and watch". Vaan does his intended job well.

@the above poster
I'm rushed for time so can't reply right this second, but since you've made the effort for a detailed post, I will reply when I have a few minutes spare to do so

Skyblade
09-23-2013, 06:52 PM
I'd like to make a further defense for Tidus. Yes, he is an annoying and whiny character. The thing is, that makes him a good character.

Tidus is a privileged youth. He grew up with the fame of his father, and later his own talents, which basically got him anything he wanted in society. He had tons of issues with his family, sure, but that's about it. What's more, he came from Zanarkand, which is already practically a utopia where everything is done for you and given for you (at least, in comparison to Spira).

This boy is then thrust into Spira, a world of despair and hostility, and everything begins to go wrong. His world shatters. Everything he was used to, everything he took for granted, even about the way people think and act, is gone. Not only is he a clueless newcomer who needs to be introduced to everything in the society, he is also someone from a completely different cultural mindset. He goes from being a penthouse dwelling celebrity to, essentially, a nobody commoner in a completely different world.

Not only is it necessary that he is introduced to the new world (which also serves to introduce it to the player), he has to adapt to it as well. And that adaptation would not be either easy or quick. Tidus's whining makes sense. The character is used to being privileged and entitled. He acts like a baby because he is, in essence, a baby. He never grew up, because he never had to, and, indeed, never really could. Zanarkand was such a bubble of perfection that growth and development in it were pretty much impossible. Remember what Auron said "Life outside the dream world may be harsh, but it is at least life". Tidus is having to respond and develop to this new world coming from a background which had, really, no hardship.

And Tidus does develop. It happens over the course of most of the game, sure, but even then, the game takes place over a relatively short period of time (seriously, a few months, tops, right?). His development, and even whining, while admittedly annoying, are still good characterization. It matches the characters experiences and personality at the time. Tidus's development is natural and steady, and his reaction to the bombshells dropped on him are all strong and well written.

Just because something is annoying or sounds ridiculous doesn't mean that it's bad characterization.

Shin Gouken
09-24-2013, 08:07 AM
I possibly need to both eloborate and better articulate my argument concerning Tidus because your response doesn't really address my problems and appears to be defending Tidus about claims I havn't made.

I didn't say Tidus was a bad character or that he doesn't get any development. Characters like Tidus exist and aren't anywhere near as hated and his development is something only an idiot would deny. My issue with him is that he's a bad protagonist. Sure, he relays information to the player well enough, but that doesn't excuse the irritating character traits that plague you for the entire game. In fact, Jecht was in pretty much the same position as Tidus but Jecht didn't whine or throw tantrums. Jecht matured by the end of his journey too and let's face it, he was a far more entertaining character.

It takes a little more than development to make a character good. You can tack on development to anyone and use it to justify them as a character. Look at Jack Sparrow. He has carried 4 movies but has zero development. You really know nothing about him but he's an entertaining character that people enjoy watching. If you're going to be spending 50+ hours with someone, don't give them every annoying trait you can think of. Make them intersting, entertaining and most important; likable. Then you can give them development.

You can't go to a FF board without seeing Tidus hate topics. This is because his character traits are universally accepted as being annoying traits. You never see an "I hate Yuna" or an "I hate Balthier" topic. That's because they aren't annoying. We could debate Balthiers development and ties to the plot (which is minimal at best - and this coming from a FFXII fan) but he's a well loved character because he's interesting and likable. A protagonist (especially in a role playing game) should be somebody you want to be (as in role play) Why SE would choose to give their lead these universally agreed annoying character traits instead of giving us a character with more likable traits is beyond me. Tidus deserves the hate he receives because of what he is, regardless of how justified his actions might be or how well he's developed.

EDIT: Regarding your previous post.

Your denial of Vaan's influence on Ashe is a little bit funny. No offence. That's because this is his major role in the story (The same as Basch, Penelo, Balthier and Frans roles actually). You'll notice that Ashe has a major scene with each main character that addresses an issue that would affect her decision regarding the Sun Cryst. Her scene with Balthier on the Phon Coast for example has very little with giving Balthier further development. It's there to have an impact on Ashe. Balthier is trying to steer her off the path of being driven and corrupted by the desire for power ("Ever lusting for power, is that how you see me?") He's had first hand experience with his father and is trying to stop her from following the same path. Her scene with Basch addresses the horrors of war, and bearing the burden of shame when failing to protect her people even when she has the opportunity to do so. She would never had destroyed the Sun Cryst (leaving herself powerless, unable to get revenge, unable to stop the empire and unable to free her people) without the lessons she learns from her companions.

If the point of Tidus's whining and tantrums was to influence Yuna, it genuinly makes me very sad that they couldn't find a better way to achieve it. Personally, I don't see Tidus's involvement myself. Yuna comes to many realizations about the corrupt organization of Yu Yevon and goes behind everyones back when dealing with Seymour (Because they would try and stop her which only shows that she's prepared to do the "right" thing always.) Rikku does her part in influencing Yuna and Auron leads them into battle with Yunalesca which has nothing to do with Tidus. But regardless, I don't have a problem with Tidus's involvement in the plot. Only that an argument can be made to extract him with minimal changes to the outcome.

Good job justifying the laughing scene. Again. with all these complex thoughts and emotions regarding their fate, you'd think the devs could do a better job in portraying it onscreen. I get the purpose behind it but it really doesn't achieve what you think it does. You've tacked all this on to an otherwise silly scene that could have portrayed their emotions far more effectively another way.

As for Vaan. He's not a sports star with an alcoholic father and a lifestyle where everything is handed to him. He's an orphan that has already had to learn to take care of himself. That's why he doesn't whine. And he's watching refugess being slaughtered and accompanying someone who intends to destroy the empire and hundreds of thousands of people. Of course he matures quickly. It isn't unnatural for such real issues to have a major impact on your thoughts and feelings. If anything, it's unnatural that it took Tidus so long to mature even when watching Sin decimate entire villages.

Jinx
09-24-2013, 12:58 PM
Yuna is totally annoying.

Skyblade
09-24-2013, 06:01 PM
You can't go to a FF board without seeing Tidus hate topics. This is because his character traits are universally accepted as being annoying traits. You never see an "I hate Yuna" or an "I hate Balthier" topic. That's because they aren't annoying. We could debate Balthiers development and ties to the plot (which is minimal at best - and this coming from a FFXII fan) but he's a well loved character because he's interesting and likable. A protagonist (especially in a role playing game) should be somebody you want to be (as in role play) Why SE would choose to give their lead these universally agreed annoying character traits instead of giving us a character with more likable traits is beyond me. Tidus deserves the hate he receives because of what he is, regardless of how justified his actions might be or how well he's developed.

I can see your point here, but I do disagree with it, just on personal levels and values.

A protagonist should be someone you want to be, yes. But, more than that, it should be someone you can relate to. Someone you can see yourself as.

Tidus works here because of his annoyances. Take a moment to think for a minute. How would you actually act if you were thrust into Spira? How quickly would you relate to a world filled to the brim with despair? How accepting would you be of your new circumstances? If you met Auron, how forgiving of him would you be for bringing you there, stealing your friends and life from you?

Tidus behaves in a way that I think a lot of us would if we were thrust into the position. There are a few facepalm moments (his blind idiocy on things like Macarena Temple or the "crews-of-what now?" being the worst), but on the whole, I think his story is one that you can relate to, because you can understand his feelings. Sure, looking at it from the outside, you can also bring up the bad points (bad, not unrealistic) of his character. You can point out when he's being stupid, when he's failing to accept something or figure something out. But looking at things from the outside is sometimes a little too objective. If you try to relate to him, to immerse yourself in that character, a lot of those moments make sense. They're understandable, and I can even empathize with them.

When Tidus throws his hissy fit at Auron, sure, it's awkward, whiny, and childish. So what? Think about it. If your hometown was attacked by a monster and in the middle of it all your best friend came and threw you into Spira, how would you act when you saw him again?

I like Tidus as a character because I find him realistically portrayed, well written, and well developed. I can relate to him because his circumstances and reactions are well crafted. And I can admire him because he does grow up and become a hero. That is what I look for in a protagonist.



Your denial of Vaan's influence on Ashe is a little bit funny. No offence. That's because this is his major role in the story (The same as Basch, Penelo, Balthier and Frans roles actually). You'll notice that Ashe has a major scene with each main character that addresses an issue that would affect her decision regarding the Sun Cryst. Her scene with Balthier on the Phon Coast for example has very little with giving Balthier further development. It's there to have an impact on Ashe. Balthier is trying to steer her off the path of being driven and corrupted by the desire for power ("Ever lusting for power, is that how you see me?") He's had first hand experience with his father and is trying to stop her from following the same path. Her scene with Basch addresses the horrors of war, and bearing the burden of shame when failing to protect her people even when she has the opportunity to do so. She would never had destroyed the Sun Cryst (leaving herself powerless, unable to get revenge, unable to stop the empire and unable to free her people) without the lessons she learns from her companions.

While that's great, it still doesn't address Vaan's contribution to her decision. If he did have a similar scene, what did it teach her?


If the point of Tidus's whining and tantrums was to influence Yuna, it genuinly makes me very sad that they couldn't find a better way to achieve it. Personally, I don't see Tidus's involvement myself. Yuna comes to many realizations about the corrupt organization of Yu Yevon and goes behind everyones back when dealing with Seymour (Because they would try and stop her which only shows that she's prepared to do the "right" thing always.) Rikku does her part in influencing Yuna and Auron leads them into battle with Yunalesca which has nothing to do with Tidus. But regardless, I don't have a problem with Tidus's involvement in the plot. Only that an argument can be made to extract him with minimal changes to the outcome.

It wasn't his whining and tantrums. It was his nature and personality.

Everyone in Spira is consumed by despair. The entire world is built on the premise that the spiral never changes. People die, Sin always comes back, summoners die, machina are bad, etcetera. Tidus, by his very nature of never being exposed to any of this, never accepts any of it. Every time he asks her "what's wrong with machina" or why is some ritual performed, it makes her question the world's circumstances. Each time he just cheerfully assumes that Yuna's going to be fine after the journey, it makes her question her own mortality and path. These questions are what drive and change her.

His whining and tantrums are just his own coping mechanisms for getting thrust into a psychotic world filled with despair and actually having to grow up.


Good job justifying the laughing scene. Again. with all these complex thoughts and emotions regarding their fate, you'd think the devs could do a better job in portraying it onscreen. I get the purpose behind it but it really doesn't achieve what you think it does. You've tacked all this on to an otherwise silly scene that could have portrayed their emotions far more effectively another way.

I think the devs did do a good job of portraying it on screen. Mostly because of Wakka. It's the end of that scene that really captures its purpose. The two step back from their little scene and the rest of the party sees the. With a look of united "WTF was that?". And Wakka then says his line of "we just thought you'd gone a little crazy". And the entire scene suddenly makes sense. It was an awkward scene. It didn't fit in with regular behavior or actions. And no one tries to treat it as though it did.

The only real problem is that on a first time play through, we don't yet know that Yuna is in the same sort of situation, and needs the same sort of stress abandonment as Tidus. As soon as we get that clue, the entire scene makes sense.


As for Vaan. He's not a sports star with an alcoholic father and a lifestyle where everything is handed to him. He's an orphan that has already had to learn to take care of himself. That's why he doesn't whine. And he's watching refugess being slaughtered and accompanying someone who intends to destroy the empire and hundreds of thousands of people. Of course he matures quickly. It isn't unnatural for such real issues to have a major impact on your thoughts and feelings. If anything, it's unnatural that it took Tidus so long to mature even when watching Sin decimate entire villages.

If Vaan showed any of those thoughts or feelings that were developing in him, I might be fine with it. Again, at what part in the story does Vaan actually think about or come to terms with anything? He goes straight from witnessing these things to suddenly having these huge insights into character, with no actual development explaining any of it. By the time he discusses his problems with anyone, he's already worked through them, and I find that incredibly unrealistic.

Shin Gouken
09-24-2013, 08:46 PM
A protagonist should be someone you want to be, yes. But, more than that, it should be someone you can relate to. Someone you can see yourself as.

A famous sports star isn't the best choice of character if you want them to be relatable. I wonder how many people playing FFX are rich and famous or showboating numbskulls.

As i said, you don't need to be stupid to be ignorant. And again, Jecht is ignorant of Spira and is capable of showing his emotions without it being whiny or child like.


Tidus works here because of his annoyances. Take a moment to think for a minute. How would you actually act if you were thrust into Spira? How quickly would you relate to a world filled to the brim with despair? How accepting would you be of your new circumstances? If you met Auron, how forgiving of him would you be for bringing you there, stealing your friends and life from you?

I've had this discussion before and the answer might surprise you. This is roughly the kind of tone you would see if i had just met Auron under the same circumstance as Tidus -

"Auron! Wtf man? You've got some explaining to do. Well come on, spit it out, i want answers. You realize this is all your fault?"

It's more or less the same point Tidus wishes to make, but where i'm showing impatience and anger, Tidus is throwing himself at Auron in a hissy fit. When my own personal reaction is more dignified than the protagonists, why would i want to role play as the protagonist? Let's try another one...

Temple Bloke - "Our precepts must be obeyed"
Me - "Obey this" *grabs crotch*

Hmm, not in Final Fantasy perhaps =P


If you try to relate to him, to immerse yourself in that character, a lot of those moments make sense. They're understandable, and I can even empathize with them.

Perhaps this is the problem. People have difficulty immersing themselves into Tidus's character because he's not very likable. I personally have difficulty immersing myself into a character i don't like. But i also have difficulty pretending to be a character that makes it look like i have a better chance of saving the world myself. I want to be Auron, or Jecht, hell, even Wakka.



I like Tidus as a character because I find him realistically portrayed, well written, and well developed. I can relate to him because his circumstances and reactions are well crafted. And I can admire him because he does grow up and become a hero. That is what I look for in a protagonist.

Hmm. I don't know any adults who throw tantrums like Tidus does. Can we be honest for a second here... his actions are what you would expect from a child. Adults can control their behaviour in public even in a place they are unfamiliar with... in fact more so in a place they are unfamiliar with. What if the punishment for entering the forbidden place in the temple was death. Short game. Tidus doesn't know where he is and has already been abducted by the Al Bhed at that point. There's being stupid and then there's Tidus.


While that's great, it still doesn't address Vaan's contribution to her decision. If he did have a similar scene, what did it teach her?


Gabranth: You claim no need of power? What of your broken Kingdoms shame? The dead demand justice!
Vaan: You're wrong. I can't help my brother now. He's gone. He's dead.
Ashe: Even with power we cannot change what has passed. What is done is done.

Vaan helps her overcome her own desire for revenge by overcoming his. Vaan overcomes his desire for revenge when he realizes that there's a war coming and people are dying. The real world hits him hard and revenge is the last thing on his mind. Gabranth shows up and Ashe drops the Sword of Kings and raises the Treaty Blade ready to fight Gabranth. But Vaan, despite being confronted with his brothers killer, does not fight.

If you watch the scene at the Pharos, after this line...

Gabranth: No, we cannot escape the past, this man is living proof. What is your past, daughter of Dalmasca? Did you not swear revenge? Do the dead not demand it!

Ashe looks at Vaan. She holds his gaze for a full 18 seconds without a single line of dialogue. She swore revenge and is being prodded by Gabranth to take it. But it is Vaan that holds her back.



Everyone in Spira is consumed by despair. The entire world is built on the premise that the spiral never changes. People die, Sin always comes back, summoners die, machina are bad, etcetera. Tidus, by his very nature of never being exposed to any of this, never accepts any of it. Every time he asks her "what's wrong with machina" or why is some ritual performed, it makes her question the world's circumstances. Each time he just cheerfully assumes that Yuna's going to be fine after the journey, it makes her question her own mortality and path. These questions are what drive and change her.

Makes sense. My only problem with it is that i simply don't buy that Auron would have stood and watched as Braskas daughter and Jechts son fell to the same fate as their parents. Auron died trying to avenge his friends. He blames Yunalesca and tried to kill her once already. He lead them into battle with her fully intending to kill her. And again, why in hell would he have witheld all this information? Was it because he didn't want to interfere with her choice? Or more likley, if she had found out before, she'd never of made it to Zanarkand.



I think the devs did do a good job of portraying it on screen.

Pretending to laugh to reflect on darker emotions is a fine idea, it's the execution that robs that scene of any impact it was intended to make. It doesn't sound like forced laughter, it sounds like someone is falling down a very large set of stairs - "Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah". <_< You know it's true.

Right, because people don't work through their problems in their heads. Nope, everything must be resolved by talking about it to people and then, and only then will your problems magically be resolved. Do you honestly think that spending some time in a dungeon, being attacked by headhunters and being held prisoner on a warship had no impact on him just because he didn't have a heart to heart with Penelo or Balthier about it? This isn't Vaans story and we therefore don't get a long detailed path of development layed out for us. His character learns and he changes. We can see it happen (iirc other characters point this out but i'm drawing a blank on specifics). It sounds very much like you want Vaans development (the way it is executed i mean) to mimic Tidus's. It doesn't. If that hurts the story for you and prevents you from understanding Vaan, perhaps you'd be suited with a book rather than an RPG. You experience everything Vaan experiences so you should automatically have an idea of how he's feeling.

Hmm, now it's my turn to put you in Vaans shoes. (You cruelly made me do it for Tidus =p) Your parents are dead and the only thing you have left in the world is your brother. He goes to war and is killed. You can't understand why he would go to war when their is no chance he could possibly win and you can't ask him because he's dead. You want to make the people responsible suffer but are powerless to do so. So instead, you distract yourself with dreams of being free. Your chosen path leads you to being hunted by the headhunters, being thrown in a dungeon, being caught by the empire, watching your trusted allies betray you, watching the empire slaughter dozens of refugees, witnessing the destructive force of nethicite etc. Tell me... is revenge still the most important thing to you? If it is, perhaps this is your problem

Huckleberry Quin
09-26-2013, 07:21 AM
What the fuck, guys. xD

Tigmafuzz
09-27-2013, 01:01 AM
[paragraph intensifies]

TrollHunter
09-27-2013, 05:32 PM
Oh my god, every new post is long enough to justify getting popcorn.
(granted, its also interesting enough to warrant popcorn... but still)
Guys, really, what the smurf?

Shin Gouken
09-27-2013, 06:12 PM
Why are people so shocked that people are discussing something in a decent amount of detail? Granted, it has been a long time since i posted on this forum, but it didn't use to be uncommon to see detailed posts. There's nothing more boring than reading posts like "I love this game", or "This game is good" etc. But hey, if i'm bothering anyone i'll just head back over to gamefaqs <_<

TrollHunter
09-28-2013, 06:50 AM
Why are people so shocked that people are discussing something in a decent amount of detail? Granted, it has been a long time since i posted on this forum, but it didn't use to be uncommon to see detailed posts. There's nothing more boring than reading posts like "I love this game", or "This game is good" etc. But hey, if i'm bothering anyone i'll just head back over to gamefaqs <_<

None of us said we were bothered by it (I said quite the opposite). For me at least the conversation got a lot more in depth than what I was expecting or was prepared for, else I'd be participating myself. I don't stand a chance in this conversation anymore so all I can do is sit and watch in the background while eating a bowl of popcorn.
Please: Continue this discussion, many amazing points from both sides are being brought up and I'm quite enjoying it.

Elskidor
09-28-2013, 07:23 PM
I would nto say it is the best, but it's a damn good game. Vaan nor Penelo should be in the game though. They have no real place. I think Fran is weak for a female character too, but Ashe's badassness makes up for it. Great story, great game play. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few flaws, but they can't be too many that bugged me or I'd remember them....I'd think.

Cuchulainn
09-30-2013, 12:08 AM
I did not start this thread for you two to start thesaurus smurfing. The walls of convoluted conjecture are not welcome. Least of all welcome is anyone defending that bandit of arses, Tidus. Pack your trout and get out.

Anyway as I understood it, Vaan & Penelo were there as outside observers to the story. Yea they were loosely connected in some way but they were put in to represent us, the gamer. That's how I seen it anyway.

Shin Gouken
09-30-2013, 11:59 AM
I did not start this thread for you two to start thesaurus smurfing. The walls of convoluted conjecture are not welcome. Least of all welcome is anyone defending that bandit of arses, Tidus. Pack your trout and get out.

Tough trout mate. If you don't want to read it then simply don't read it. Is that so hard? I guess it must be, otherwise you wouldn't be so aggressive about it. It's all on topic so i suppose you'll just have to deal with it.

ITT=people who think they own the internet.

Jinx
09-30-2013, 12:12 PM
Talking about Tidus in this thread isn't really on topic, tbh.

Cuchulainn
09-30-2013, 04:45 PM
I did not start this thread for you two to start thesaurus smurfing. The walls of convoluted conjecture are not welcome. Least of all welcome is anyone defending that bandit of arses, Tidus. Pack your trout and get out.

Tough trout mate. If you don't want to read it then simply don't read it. Is that so hard? I guess it must be, otherwise you wouldn't be so aggressive about it. It's all on topic so i suppose you'll just have to deal with it.

ITT=people who think they own the internet.

This thread isn't about FFX or that whiney bell end. You're actually hijacking my thread with your convoluted verbose madness. You're off topic. Now scuttle off somewhere quiet. There's a good boy.

Pike
09-30-2013, 04:54 PM
So guys let's please get the thread back on topic.

Feel free to talk about Tidus in the FFX subforum. In fact, here is a handy link to it: http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-x/

Shin Gouken
09-30-2013, 04:56 PM
I did not start this thread for you two to start thesaurus smurfing. The walls of convoluted conjecture are not welcome. Least of all welcome is anyone defending that bandit of arses, Tidus. Pack your trout and get out.

Tough trout mate. If you don't want to read it then simply don't read it. Is that so hard? I guess it must be, otherwise you wouldn't be so aggressive about it. It's all on topic so i suppose you'll just have to deal with it.

ITT=people who think they own the internet.

This thread isn't about FFX or that whiney bell end. You're actually hijacking my thread with your convoluted verbose madness. You're off topic. Now scuttle off somewhere quiet. There's a good boy.

Request denied. I'm happy here, and what little bother i'm causing you is enough reason for me to stick around.

FFX is relevant to the discussion of FFXII because the story elements are being compared. If you don't like it, you can continue to whinge about it like that "bell end", you could leave (noone would give a trout) or you can grow up and deal with it. Your choice bro


EDIT: To the above poster -

If we aren't allowed to discuss Tidus in the FFXII forum, we presumably can't talk about Vaan in the FFX forum. So how do you propose we discuss comparing the two? Technically they are both relevant to the discussion so should be fine to discuss in either forum.

What if i wanted to compare Vaan to Luke Skywalker... are you going to boot me out and tell me to find a Star Wars forum?

Pike
09-30-2013, 05:03 PM
So how do you propose we discuss comparing the two? Technically they are both relevant to the discussion so should be fine to discuss in either forum.

Personally I'd stick that in the General Final Fantasy forum.

I feel that my above post was not clear and that's my fault. It also meant to include these petty snipes at each other which had no relevance to the topic at hand. As such, some of yours and also some of Cuch's posts have been snipped.

Edit: Comparisons in this thread are of course okay, but it felt like the Tidus discussion was really overbearing the rest of the discussion.

Pike
09-30-2013, 05:24 PM
Here guys, I made a new thread for this :) http://home.eyesonff.com/general-final-fantasy/152314-vaan-vs-tidus-thunderdome.html

Shin Gouken
09-30-2013, 07:24 PM
No thanks.

There was a perfectly legitimate conversation (related to FFXii) in this topic with people discussing their ideas and giving thought out reasons for them which you decided to turn into a typical character vs character discussion that coincidentally has zero substance and is filled with people dissing both characters without detailing reasons.

Well done EoFF. It's this kind of petty BS that made me leave once before. Toodle pip

Skyblade
09-30-2013, 10:04 PM
No thanks.

There was a perfectly legitimate conversation (related to FFXii) in this topic with people discussing their ideas and giving thought out reasons for them

Actually, the discussion I was engaged in was only half related to FFXII. I was only comparing Tidus and Vaan in the vaguest sense. Mostly I was criticizing Vaan, and defending Tidus. Both interesting, but both separate.

Also, from the amount of posts that got culled, and what usually has to be done to get that sort of action taken, I'd say it probably got a little bit personal (which isn't surprising, judging from what I'd seen last time I was in the thread), which isn't allowed.


which you decided to turn into a typical character vs character discussion that coincidentally has zero substance and is filled with people dissing both characters without detailing reasons.

This is actually a reasonable complaint, the new thread doesn't have nearly the depth or content of the old one. I think I know what happened there, actually (and I have an idea to fix it so it is less likely to happen again), but the best place to handle that sort of discussion is PMs, not listing grievances in a discussion thread.



While that's great, it still doesn't address Vaan's contribution to her decision. If he did have a similar scene, what did it teach her?

Gabranth: You claim no need of power? What of your broken Kingdoms shame? The dead demand justice!
Vaan: You're wrong. I can't help my brother now. He's gone. He's dead.
Ashe: Even with power we cannot change what has passed. What is done is done.

Vaan helps her overcome her own desire for revenge by overcoming his. Vaan overcomes his desire for revenge when he realizes that there's a war coming and people are dying. The real world hits him hard and revenge is the last thing on his mind. Gabranth shows up and Ashe drops the Sword of Kings and raises the Treaty Blade ready to fight Gabranth. But Vaan, despite being confronted with his brothers killer, does not fight.

If you watch the scene at the Pharos, after this line...

Gabranth: No, we cannot escape the past, this man is living proof. What is your past, daughter of Dalmasca? Did you not swear revenge? Do the dead not demand it!

Ashe looks at Vaan. She holds his gaze for a full 18 seconds without a single line of dialogue. She swore revenge and is being prodded by Gabranth to take it. But it is Vaan that holds her back.

Interesting. I didn't actually get far enough in the game to see this scene, actually. I got the Treaty Blade, but never really went past that.

This does sound like pretty decent interaction and development. Although why did it take hundreds of hours to get to?

Also, is that really a role that only Vaan could fill? Pretty much every character in the party (except maybe Fran) has reasons to want revenge on the guy, and any of them could serve a similar role as mediator.

What's more, does Vaan actually hold her back? You say that Vaan and Ashe hold a mirrored path through the story, both coping with the loss and betrayal. If that's true, is Vaan's rejection of revenge anything special, or does Ashe develop similarly? I'll have to see that scene or watch it on YouTube sometime to be sure.

EDIT: Although, wow, even just discussing Vaan is actually way off topic from the original post.


- There's no pathetic, childish, emo love story forced on you
This is true of most FF games.

- The world seems filled. In other releases you'd swear it was a post-apocalyptic nightmare of a place where only your group and a few scattered souls survive.
This I will give you, Ivalice is generally always awesome. It was even pretty good in FFT, even if it was at its weakest there.

- The storyline is mature and for the first time almost believable.
Perhaps. It's also badly paced, horribly structured, and, due to the shifts in writers, seriously falls apart in places.

- the bad guys don't look like angry transvestites anymore and actually look pretty smurfing cool.
Eh, Vayne's hardly the most masculine of men. But the judges are awesome.

- Tidus isnt in it
The point that started the off-topic discussion, and largely moot, since the same is true of every FF game except X.

- you can dedicate as much or as little time you can to it. You get your moneys worth.
The same is true for every FF game. In fact, I spent far more time in most of the others than I did in XII, and enjoyed almost all of it.

- the characters that annoy you no longer outnumber the characters that dont.
When was this ever not the case? Granted, the series has had some annoying characters, but never that many. I'd say this game runs about the same ratio as most.

- Balthier and Fran are probably the best protagonists of the FF series.
Fran is not a good protagonist. Her development is relatively shallow, and she mostly serves to give exposition or have weird connections to the Mist.

The relationship of the two and how they interact with the world is awesome, though.

- Along with FFIX it's probably the best written of all the games
When it's at its peak, sure. But when it's not, it's pretty much right there with the rest of the series.

- Tidus isnt in it
No wonder we got sidetracked.

- It's not too silly (FFIX, even though i love FF IX it's undoubtedly made as a fun homage-type title) or too pathetically emo (FFVIII) it finds that awesome middle ground.
I'm Captain Basch!

- it's a world. It comes across as a world. ie. you're not wandering from a smurfing snow field into a dark forestr, into a great plain in a few tiny steps. You get the sense you're actually smurfing travelling.
This actually hurts the game more than anything else. Because it doesn't feel right. You spend dozens of hours of dungeon crawling with characters who display no individuality or emotion. Then all of a sudden a cutscene happens and for a minute or two you're supposed to relate to these things.

Epic disaster happens? No biggy, you'll be right back to mindlessly mowing down enemies after the cutscene. The world is so huge that you have tons of time where the characters never display their emotions or show what they're thinking.

- the gambit system. One word. Revolutionary.
One word. Boring.

- weather. there's smurfing weather.
Cool, but hardly something that hasn't been done before, or since.

- There's many shades of grey. Not just you're tired good vs evil.
No, it's pretty much a straight good versus evil fight.

- There's a smurfing T-Rex
Now you're thinking of FFVIII

- You get to kill bunnies who only want to cure you.
And this is good because?

- Moogles are back.
Again, Ivalice is awesome. But so what? Again, Moogles are in most of the series.

- The sidequests are relatively enjoyable and not smurfing tortuous.
The sidequests were nice, but the marks were not. Go hunt this monster, go hunt that monster. Boring, poorly structured, and there were way too many of them. And they really overshadowed the actual sidequests which, while fun, there weren't nearly enough of.

Raistlin
09-30-2013, 11:03 PM
FFXII is a great game, and one of the best in the series. It had one of the best stories in the game, though had some major issues in pacing that sometimes made it difficult to fully appreciate on a first playthrough. It also had one of the richest worlds to explore, and really made the world seem massive -- more massive than any other game in the series, which is a tough pill for me to swallow, because I love the traditional world map that FFXII did away with. And significantly, FFXII largely dispensed with some of the most annoying and stereotypical character tropes that were overused in the rest of the series.

Great game, and sorely underappreciated.

Skyblade
09-30-2013, 11:14 PM
FFXII is a great game, and one of the best in the series. It had one of the best stories in the game, though had some major issues in pacing that sometimes made it difficult to fully appreciate on a first playthrough. It also had one of the richest worlds to explore, and really made the world seem massive -- more massive than any other game in the series, which is a tough pill for me to swallow, because I love the traditional world map that FFXII did away with. And significantly, FFXII largely dispensed with some of the most annoying and stereotypical character tropes that were overused in the rest of the series.

Great game, and sorely underappreciated.

Again, that whole "massive world" thing is why FFXII had horrible pacing.

Also, you forgot to mention that it had one of the worst combat systems in the series, despite its other strengths.

Cuchulainn
09-30-2013, 11:39 PM
The combat system was fantastic man. The Gambit system was revolutionary for RPGs of that ilk. This is all just opinions of course but I thought it was the best combat system of them all. FF had to move on from that very very dated turn based system.

As Wesley stated the world is fantastic and the story is pretty much the best there has been.

Slothy
09-30-2013, 11:45 PM
FFXII is a great game, and one of the best in the series. It had one of the best stories in the game, though had some major issues in pacing that sometimes made it difficult to fully appreciate on a first playthrough. It also had one of the richest worlds to explore, and really made the world seem massive -- more massive than any other game in the series, which is a tough pill for me to swallow, because I love the traditional world map that FFXII did away with. And significantly, FFXII largely dispensed with some of the most annoying and stereotypical character tropes that were overused in the rest of the series.

Great game, and sorely underappreciated.

Again, that whole "massive world" thing is why FFXII had horrible pacing.

Also, you forgot to mention that it had one of the worst combat systems in the series, despite its other strengths.

FFXII has the best combat system of any game in the series aside from, maybe, FFV and FF Tactics. The rest of the series doesn't even come close to creating a battle system that's this much of a joy to play.

Cuchulainn
10-01-2013, 12:42 AM
FFXII is a great game, and one of the best in the series. It had one of the best stories in the game, though had some major issues in pacing that sometimes made it difficult to fully appreciate on a first playthrough. It also had one of the richest worlds to explore, and really made the world seem massive -- more massive than any other game in the series, which is a tough pill for me to swallow, because I love the traditional world map that FFXII did away with. And significantly, FFXII largely dispensed with some of the most annoying and stereotypical character tropes that were overused in the rest of the series.

Great game, and sorely underappreciated.

Again, that whole "massive world" thing is why FFXII had horrible pacing.

Also, you forgot to mention that it had one of the worst combat systems in the series, despite its other strengths.

FFXII has the best combat system of any game in the series aside from, maybe, FFV and FF Tactics. The rest of the series doesn't even come close to creating a battle system that's this much of a joy to play.

Looks like we finally found common ground man.

Slothy
10-01-2013, 12:45 AM
Some truths are almost undeniable my good man.

Pike
10-01-2013, 01:42 AM
Just for the record, and I realize my original post was hasty and thus not clear, you are free to continue discussing character comparisons and so forth in this thread so long as it doesn't get too far off from FFXII. Everything I snipped was personal insults, or in one case just being off-topic. None of the actual discussion was snipped.

This is also why I didn't just split the thread into a new one - I felt it was too intertwined to make a clean cut. I figured a new thread could lead to more discussion but it appears that you lot got there too slow. Of course, it's not too late to take it in a more serious direction. :p

Tigmafuzz
10-01-2013, 01:56 AM
I think the combat system and world more than make up for the pacing, even if they partly to blame for it.

Skyblade
10-01-2013, 05:01 AM
FFXII has the best combat system of any game in the series aside from, maybe, FFV and FF Tactics. The rest of the series doesn't even come close to creating a battle system that's this much of a joy to play.

I'd like to start by saying that any game which breaks the rules of its own combat system does not have good mechanics.

The Gambits, while revolutionary, still had some big problems.

First, the restrictions. These were just completely stupid. Your party's skills and abilities should grow, yes, but the system you use to control them should not. Having 90% of the Gambit system locked at the beginning of the game was a horrible decision, and if they ever do revisit it, I hope they just give you full control right out of the gate.

Second, the number. There are way too few. For one thing, they needed to give you a secondary and even a tertiary Gambit list that you can pull up quickly to flip out a character's entire Gambit list all at once. The system could handle any situation nearly perfectly with good Gambits, but setting up the twelve perfect Gambits that you need for a particular situation was such a pain in the tokhes that you generally just pick an average all-rounder set and went with it. Which made the game boring and made the combat uninvolved. Given us a Paradigm Shift like mechanic to completely flip out a character's Gambits for another set you've already prepared, while saving the old set, would make the Gambits so much better.

Third, the lack of options. I don't want to talk about this one too much, since I'd have to replay the game again to give a lot of details, but I do remember being incredibly frustrated by how I couldn't set up a Gambit to work in a particular and, seemingly, simple way. Not to mention things like the fact that each spell needs its own Gambit. You can easily set up half the Gambit list with just buffs to cast, all of which you need up most of the time because the game does a good job of making buffs really useful. A "cast all, in this priority order" as a single Gambit would be awesome.

It wasn't actually a horrible game system, but I felt it was just far less polished than it needed to be to be great. Granted, it was a brand new idea, but I still felt it could have been better executed.

Also, I never had a problem with turn based systems. Far better than most "real time" systems that games have these days.


But I think the world size and structure is what really killed this game for me. Ivalice is awesome, but I didn't need that long exploring it. The towns were phenomenal, and I won't deny that. But the rest of the game, while impressive in scale, just felt like one long dungeon crawl, and I think it killed the pacing and immersion.