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Silent Warrior
10-28-2013, 08:36 PM
FF7, wherefore art thou awesome?
(Or: The grudge rant of a 'hater' having to come to terms with the fact that FF7 is actually a good game. I guess I finally got over Yuffie.)

STICKY BAIT! *Prod* (That, and a bloody massive wall of text that took weeks to compile.)

So, yeah, guess what game I'm currently playing? Anyway, what I hope to accomplish with this rant is to point a finger at some of the strengths of FF7 that you might not at first consider at first glance. I know I didn't, and let the game's failings taint my overall experience. Just this once, I'm actually going to wax all positive about the things FF7 did right - or MOSTLY right. Let's not ignore the plot holes, the deplorable translation, and there being Greek on Gaia, though... nor the inconsistent character models in the FMVs. A polished gem this is not.

SETTING
Among the many things I never bothered to notice until now is how the world is presented in the game. The impression I get is that the game takes place IN THAT WORLD, as opposed to the world being created for the purpose of allowing the game to at all take place. Do you see the distinction? It's difficult to point a finger at how they did it, but it's what separates FF7/FF8/Baldur's Gate/Planescape Torment from FF10/FF13/Dragon Age. This lets me form my own opinion, my own feeling, about Gaia and what happens there outside of the main narrative instead of being hot-plugged into the author's view. Whether this is good, bad, or even necessary, it does increase the emotional connection to the world around the characters, and I APPROVE OF THIS.
There is also an ominous atmosphere, right from the beginning. Dark colour tones? Check. Pollution and dilapidation? In spades. Now, characters dying around you isn't news in FF7, but already when the support pillar is destroyed you're confronted with death among your crew... And Red XIII's uncle - really...? How obvious can you get?!
Among all the things Bugen Hagen says, he voices a pessimism you don't normally encounter in this kind of game. And then there are all those mentions of Aeris being the last of the Cetra, effectively a species facing extinction... That's some heavy thought - and Square did not throw this in your face at every opportunity, thus allowing us gamers to fill in those blanks ourselves. This added another dimension to Aeris's death, one that wouldn't manifest if it were, say, Tifa who kicked the bucket. I mean, it would still suck, but it wouldn't be the end of an entire race. I expect that there was also some psychological effect in having to change discs after that simple yet beautiful funeral. Must be why they used the same trick for FF8.
Also note the sci-fi/fantasy setting, and the mostly familiar architecture. (If you're european, anyway. Any asian member care to comment on the degree of familiarity?) This makes the world less alien, and easier to feel at home in - less confusion, more immersion.
Much as I enjoy Bioware's creations, their worlds generally feel like 'some other place I don't know anything about' - with FF7 (and FF8, though to a slightly lesser extent) I immediately felt that I understood how the world worked, the culture, the technology and vehicles... That's probably an individual thing, whether you felt the same way - but I DID! So there! Ipso facto, q.e.d., i.e., whatever.

STORY
I think I'll touch on the more interesting bits further down, so I'll try to keep it on the macroscopic level. From the outset, we have...
- A rebel (terrorist in today's parlance) group.
- A sinister corporation, hell bent on profit, bugger life as we know it, bugger those who can't pay their mako-bills.

... And not much else, pre-Aeris. I really have to say that the tale twists and turns something fierce. While the main quest is (... eventually) to give Sephiroth a spanking, there's a good 40-50 hours between that reveal and actually getting to have a go at him. And there's always something cropping up - NPC backstory (Red in Cosmo, Barret in Corel), the Huge Materia (which, honestly, felt like completely arbitrary busy-work), Yuffie stealing your materia, SNAFU at Gold Saucer... While most of those can be equated to normal sub-/sidequests (like the tried and true 'rats in the basement' that was absolutely mandatory for every Infinity-powered RPG) for reasons unknown they feel like part of the main narrative. It doesn't get boring until you have to start grinding for the Ruby/Emerald Weapon battles or the final dungeon.

GRAPHICS
HA! Had you going there, didn't I? :) Well, obviously FF7 wasn't as graphically advanced as it could be on the given hardware (... FF9?) but, the thing is, it sits right in between two graphical technologies: 2D sprites and 3D meshes. Historical importance, really, and simply curio, but I want to put the spotlight on the animations. The character models really look like 2D sprites given polygons, right? They are simple, aren't they? Square didn't have particularly potent user-end hardware to work with, of course, but how much do you know about baroque operas? Among... somewhat simpler music than today's operas, the characters' gestures were generally also simple - evil man X struck this pose when he entered the stage, hero Y struck a different pose when he entered the stage, when thought/feeling Z was expressed ... You get the point, I'm sure. What I'm getting at is that, in FF7, the means of expression you'd normally only see with sprites is carried over onto 3D meshes.
Cool or not, 's history. So sue me. And you'll note that Xenogears went the other way - 2D sprites on fully 3D 'backgrounds'.
As for the overall style, note that they chose to use textures with very little detail - I've seen insinuations that Square simply painted some meshes, forgoing textures altogether in those cases. Now, compare the FF7 world map with the FF9 world map. Which feels more comfortable to look at? Right, my point exactly: FF7 is easy on the eyes. *LAYS THE SMACK DOWN*
And, uh, again let's just ignore the FMVs...

MUSIC
You know, there's this one thing that never actually occurred to me until just now: The world map theme is unusually advanced, in terms of form/compositional technique. While, say, Mass Effect's map theme only really has one part (Galaxy map), FF9 and FF8 two parts, I'm counting at least FOUR in FF7 - AND there are related thirds! AND (brief) moments with dense harmonies!
(Related thirds were made mainstream by Beethoven some 200 years past, and is counted as the separation point between romanticism and classicism. Related thirds in spades in Brahms's pieces. Plus, I like them a smurfing ton. Also consider checking out the sonata form on Wikipedia or your closest music theorist (me?) for extra reference reading.)
Again I want to bring up the baroque era. (What is it this time...?) One of the central ideas about how you should write music back then was that one piece or movement should only encompass ONE emotion - which most world map themes do, in games from all over the world. Except for FF7. In no other game have I heard a more intricate composition used for the world map, and that right there is a reason as good as any to call FF7 historically unique. Unless I'm mistaken and there are other games with as complex world map themes. Do point them out, I swear I'll try to find the time to play them. :)
That, the intro, and One-winged Angel aside, what I'm really fascinated by is how they worked the music into the game. Two moments stand out in particular: Sephiroth going bonkers, and the descent into Cosmo Cavern.
So what's cool about Sephiroth losing his marbles? C'mon, what do you hear when Cloud enters the basement in Shinra Mansion? Tolling bells, and MIDI percussion meant to bring associations of heart beats. That, right there, is quite possibly the most menacing game music ever made (though it's facing brave competition by variations of Galm's battle theme from Shining games on the Saturn). And when Sephiroth says he's going to see his mother, and THAT theme kicks in, you KNOW milk and cookies are nowhere near the equation.
Cueing segments of music through triggers is nothing new - even good old Wing Commander did that, back in 1990 - but it's too uncommon to see it come out so well as the scene in Shinra Mansion did. There are a couple of truly memorable moments in FF7, and this is one of them - all thanks to the music. Well played, Square. Really well done.
What, then, is the deal with Cosmo Caverns? You'll remember going down the rope to the dungeon (dungeon in the technical sense, of course), and the music gradually fading, until you can say, with the straightest of faces: 'Toto, I don't think we're in Cosmo anymore.' This fade-out appears to be triggered by climbing x distance - which is probably a very simple trick, but the scene is made ever so much more interesting since they did make the effort. Such a small thing, such great effect.

CHARACTERS
Cloud. What else is there to say about him that hasn't been said already? There is one thing I would really like to put out in the open, something that separates western RPGs from JRPGs: western made protagonists are often cast as paragons, more capable/special than your average bugger (see Summoner, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, The Witcher*, Wing Commander, . . .), while eastern made protagonists are often ordinary people, warts and all, who end up rising to the occasion (see .hack, FF6 sans Terra, FFX**, Grandia 2, Tales of Xillia/Jude). But that's all academic. The real meat and potatoes lie in their motivations.
Cloud: Wants to stop Sephiroth - OR DOES HE?? There is an ambiguity here that Square... tastefully leaves in our hands to speculate about. Truly beautiful - some things really should not be shoved in our faces.
Aeris: Starting from merely wanting to evade the Shinra (or just to hook up with Cloud - who can really tell for sure?), she passes through brooding about her entire race's demise to risking her life to save the world. And she does it in such a fundamentally... human fashion. Just run off, pray, and hope for the best. She was never portrayed as having run off on her own because of any fear for her own life, but rather to protect everyone in the most expedient way. She was even shown smiling when the merry band was reunited in Forgotten Capital. You could always debate how cliché it may or may not have been, but never once was it implied Aeris didn't expect to survive the trip. (Shining Force [whatever], really...?) And then, exit Aeris... I have to say I really like how they didn't shove her brooding into your face - remember the scene at Cosmo Candle before Red was straightened out about Seto? How often did we see Aeris like that?
Tifa: Phew, where to begin? Miffed at Shinra about her father, miffed at Shinra about Nibelheim's destruction, bewildered about Cloud's reappearance... and the most ordinary/realistic NPC in the game. I'm a bit curious as to how she met Barret and Marlene, and what might have drawn her to Midgar - I don't believe the game ever tells you. Basically a responsible type - seeing that world is going to shit, time to bring out the ass-kickery.
Barret: Miffed at Shinra for destroying his hometown in both the economic sense and in the literal sense. Then to see about Marlene's future...
Red XIII: FREEEEEEDOOOOOOOM! Okay, maybe that was uncalled-for. :) But, yeah, escape from Shinra's labs, a chance to see his dear "grandfather" again. And once he does, it turns out he's had one key thing dead wrong. So, let's live up to his father's example - go out and save the world.

... Hm, you know what, this is taking such a long time I'm just going to skip the others. The point I'm working towards is that the motivations are all easy enough to understand. No high drama, no eccentric ramblings about 'Focus!', or vaguely god-like something-or-others, or 'why can I use magic without any stones' - instead, the FF7 cast have quite ordinary concerns. Their journey follows a (mostly) plausible path, perhaps not terribly plausible cause and effect (Priscilla & Mr. Dolphin... come on!), but they don't run about in crazy whales, or manta-shaped airships, or travel through time or funky dimensions, or consult w3rd gods and/or spirits. Down to Earth is probably the description I'm looking for. And the real kicker, what separates this game from just about every western game: NONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS ARE COMPLETELY SURE THEIR STRUGGLE IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. This is further emphasised during the 'can you hear the cry of the planet' moments, and even during the ending. While ending on such a note isn't unique to FF7 (arguably, the Xenosaga saga ended in a similar way), I find that the games that do are generally memorable experiences.
(And YES, you can ABSOLUTELY argue about how well the text and the rest of the game portrays this, but that's beside the point of this post.)

And, last but certainly not least: INSPIRATION!
YES! Final Fantasy VII is the result of inspiration! This was brought about by a personal tragedy, true, (and I do feel for the man) but the important thing is that the team ultimately tried to make it a special game. Not merely 'the next instalment of Final Fantasy', there was a specific experience they tried their damnedest to convey - and I dare say they did a good job of it. Despite poor translation. Despite crude graphics. Despite godawful sound. Personal touch, and small details, rather than grand spectacles and huge melodrama, is what made this game memorable.

*Okay, this point is debatable - but the SOB can swat crossbow bolts out of the air, for smurf's sake! And smack absolutely demonic things around all over the place
**Also debatable, but you get my point. OR ELSE!

noxious.sunshine
10-28-2013, 09:34 PM
Considering 9 came out in like 2000 and 7 in 1997, that's a major leap in comparing graphics.

You forgot 8 came after 7 & before 9 & the quality in graphics was drastically better in 8. And the jump from 6 to 7 was significant as well. It's like comparing apples to oranges ... Or pitting FF1 on NES against XII. Yes that's an exaggeration, but you get my point.

Sorry mate. The rest is tl;dr.

Grim Reaper
10-29-2013, 02:01 AM
FF7, wherefore art thou awesome?
(Or: The grudge rant of a 'hater' having to come to terms with the fact that FF7 is actually a good game. I guess I finally got over Yuffie.)

STICKY BAIT! *Prod* (That, and a bloody massive wall of text that took weeks to compile.)

So, yeah, guess what game I'm currently playing? Anyway, what I hope to accomplish with this rant is to point a finger at some of the strengths of FF7 that you might not at first consider at first glance. I know I didn't, and let the game's failings taint my overall experience. Just this once, I'm actually going to wax all positive about the things FF7 did right - or MOSTLY right. Let's not ignore the plot holes, the deplorable translation, and there being Greek on Gaia, though... nor the inconsistent character models in the FMVs. A polished gem this is not.

SETTING
Among the many things I never bothered to notice until now is how the world is presented in the game. The impression I get is that the game takes place IN THAT WORLD, as opposed to the world being created for the purpose of allowing the game to at all take place. Do you see the distinction? It's difficult to point a finger at how they did it, but it's what separates FF7/FF8/Baldur's Gate/Planescape Torment from FF10/FF13/Dragon Age. This lets me form my own opinion, my own feeling, about Gaia and what happens there outside of the main narrative instead of being hot-plugged into the author's view. Whether this is good, bad, or even necessary, it does increase the emotional connection to the world around the characters, and I APPROVE OF THIS.
There is also an ominous atmosphere, right from the beginning. Dark colour tones? Check. Pollution and dilapidation? In spades. Now, characters dying around you isn't news in FF7, but already when the support pillar is destroyed you're confronted with death among your crew... And Red XIII's uncle - really...? How obvious can you get?!
Among all the things Bugen Hagen says, he voices a pessimism you don't normally encounter in this kind of game. And then there are all those mentions of Aeris being the last of the Cetra, effectively a species facing extinction... That's some heavy thought - and Square did not throw this in your face at every opportunity, thus allowing us gamers to fill in those blanks ourselves. This added another dimension to Aeris's death, one that wouldn't manifest if it were, say, Tifa who kicked the bucket. I mean, it would still suck, but it wouldn't be the end of an entire race. I expect that there was also some psychological effect in having to change discs after that simple yet beautiful funeral. Must be why they used the same trick for FF8.
Also note the sci-fi/fantasy setting, and the mostly familiar architecture. (If you're european, anyway. Any asian member care to comment on the degree of familiarity?) This makes the world less alien, and easier to feel at home in - less confusion, more immersion.
Much as I enjoy Bioware's creations, their worlds generally feel like 'some other place I don't know anything about' - with FF7 (and FF8, though to a slightly lesser extent) I immediately felt that I understood how the world worked, the culture, the technology and vehicles... That's probably an individual thing, whether you felt the same way - but I DID! So there! Ipso facto, q.e.d., i.e., whatever.

STORY
I think I'll touch on the more interesting bits further down, so I'll try to keep it on the macroscopic level. From the outset, we have...
- A rebel (terrorist in today's parlance) group.
- A sinister corporation, hell bent on profit, bugger life as we know it, bugger those who can't pay their mako-bills.

... And not much else, pre-Aeris. I really have to say that the tale twists and turns something fierce. While the main quest is (... eventually) to give Sephiroth a spanking, there's a good 40-50 hours between that reveal and actually getting to have a go at him. And there's always something cropping up - NPC backstory (Red in Cosmo, Barret in Corel), the Huge Materia (which, honestly, felt like completely arbitrary busy-work), Yuffie stealing your materia, SNAFU at Gold Saucer... While most of those can be equated to normal sub-/sidequests (like the tried and true 'rats in the basement' that was absolutely mandatory for every Infinity-powered RPG) for reasons unknown they feel like part of the main narrative. It doesn't get boring until you have to start grinding for the Ruby/Emerald Weapon battles or the final dungeon.

GRAPHICS
HA! Had you going there, didn't I? :) Well, obviously FF7 wasn't as graphically advanced as it could be on the given hardware (... FF9?) but, the thing is, it sits right in between two graphical technologies: 2D sprites and 3D meshes. Historical importance, really, and simply curio, but I want to put the spotlight on the animations. The character models really look like 2D sprites given polygons, right? They are simple, aren't they? Square didn't have particularly potent user-end hardware to work with, of course, but how much do you know about baroque operas? Among... somewhat simpler music than today's operas, the characters' gestures were generally also simple - evil man X struck this pose when he entered the stage, hero Y struck a different pose when he entered the stage, when thought/feeling Z was expressed ... You get the point, I'm sure. What I'm getting at is that, in FF7, the means of expression you'd normally only see with sprites is carried over onto 3D meshes.
Cool or not, 's history. So sue me. And you'll note that Xenogears went the other way - 2D sprites on fully 3D 'backgrounds'.
As for the overall style, note that they chose to use textures with very little detail - I've seen insinuations that Square simply painted some meshes, forgoing textures altogether in those cases. Now, compare the FF7 world map with the FF9 world map. Which feels more comfortable to look at? Right, my point exactly: FF7 is easy on the eyes. *LAYS THE SMACK DOWN*
And, uh, again let's just ignore the FMVs...

MUSIC
You know, there's this one thing that never actually occurred to me until just now: The world map theme is unusually advanced, in terms of form/compositional technique. While, say, Mass Effect's map theme only really has one part (Galaxy map), FF9 and FF8 two parts, I'm counting at least FOUR in FF7 - AND there are related thirds! AND (brief) moments with dense harmonies!
(Related thirds were made mainstream by Beethoven some 200 years past, and is counted as the separation point between romanticism and classicism. Related thirds in spades in Brahms's pieces. Plus, I like them a smurfing ton. Also consider checking out the sonata form on Wikipedia or your closest music theorist (me?) for extra reference reading.)
Again I want to bring up the baroque era. (What is it this time...?) One of the central ideas about how you should write music back then was that one piece or movement should only encompass ONE emotion - which most world map themes do, in games from all over the world. Except for FF7. In no other game have I heard a more intricate composition used for the world map, and that right there is a reason as good as any to call FF7 historically unique. Unless I'm mistaken and there are other games with as complex world map themes. Do point them out, I swear I'll try to find the time to play them. :)
That, the intro, and One-winged Angel aside, what I'm really fascinated by is how they worked the music into the game. Two moments stand out in particular: Sephiroth going bonkers, and the descent into Cosmo Cavern.
So what's cool about Sephiroth losing his marbles? C'mon, what do you hear when Cloud enters the basement in Shinra Mansion? Tolling bells, and MIDI percussion meant to bring associations of heart beats. That, right there, is quite possibly the most menacing game music ever made (though it's facing brave competition by variations of Galm's battle theme from Shining games on the Saturn). And when Sephiroth says he's going to see his mother, and THAT theme kicks in, you KNOW milk and cookies are nowhere near the equation.
Cueing segments of music through triggers is nothing new - even good old Wing Commander did that, back in 1990 - but it's too uncommon to see it come out so well as the scene in Shinra Mansion did. There are a couple of truly memorable moments in FF7, and this is one of them - all thanks to the music. Well played, Square. Really well done.
What, then, is the deal with Cosmo Caverns? You'll remember going down the rope to the dungeon (dungeon in the technical sense, of course), and the music gradually fading, until you can say, with the straightest of faces: 'Toto, I don't think we're in Cosmo anymore.' This fade-out appears to be triggered by climbing x distance - which is probably a very simple trick, but the scene is made ever so much more interesting since they did make the effort. Such a small thing, such great effect.

CHARACTERS
Cloud. What else is there to say about him that hasn't been said already? There is one thing I would really like to put out in the open, something that separates western RPGs from JRPGs: western made protagonists are often cast as paragons, more capable/special than your average bugger (see Summoner, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, The Witcher*, Wing Commander, . . .), while eastern made protagonists are often ordinary people, warts and all, who end up rising to the occasion (see .hack, FF6 sans Terra, FFX**, Grandia 2, Tales of Xillia/Jude). But that's all academic. The real meat and potatoes lie in their motivations.
Cloud: Wants to stop Sephiroth - OR DOES HE?? There is an ambiguity here that Square... tastefully leaves in our hands to speculate about. Truly beautiful - some things really should not be shoved in our faces.
Aeris: Starting from merely wanting to evade the Shinra (or just to hook up with Cloud - who can really tell for sure?), she passes through brooding about her entire race's demise to risking her life to save the world. And she does it in such a fundamentally... human fashion. Just run off, pray, and hope for the best. She was never portrayed as having run off on her own because of any fear for her own life, but rather to protect everyone in the most expedient way. She was even shown smiling when the merry band was reunited in Forgotten Capital. You could always debate how cliché it may or may not have been, but never once was it implied Aeris didn't expect to survive the trip. (Shining Force [whatever], really...?) And then, exit Aeris... I have to say I really like how they didn't shove her brooding into your face - remember the scene at Cosmo Candle before Red was straightened out about Seto? How often did we see Aeris like that?
Tifa: Phew, where to begin? Miffed at Shinra about her father, miffed at Shinra about Nibelheim's destruction, bewildered about Cloud's reappearance... and the most ordinary/realistic NPC in the game. I'm a bit curious as to how she met Barret and Marlene, and what might have drawn her to Midgar - I don't believe the game ever tells you. Basically a responsible type - seeing that world is going to trout, time to bring out the ass-kickery.
Barret: Miffed at Shinra for destroying his hometown in both the economic sense and in the literal sense. Then to see about Marlene's future...
Red XIII: FREEEEEEDOOOOOOOM! Okay, maybe that was uncalled-for. :) But, yeah, escape from Shinra's labs, a chance to see his dear "grandfather" again. And once he does, it turns out he's had one key thing dead wrong. So, let's live up to his father's example - go out and save the world.

... Hm, you know what, this is taking such a long time I'm just going to skip the others. The point I'm working towards is that the motivations are all easy enough to understand. No high drama, no eccentric ramblings about 'Focus!', or vaguely god-like something-or-others, or 'why can I use magic without any stones' - instead, the FF7 cast have quite ordinary concerns. Their journey follows a (mostly) plausible path, perhaps not terribly plausible cause and effect (Priscilla & Mr. Dolphin... come on!), but they don't run about in crazy whales, or manta-shaped airships, or travel through time or funky dimensions, or consult w3rd gods and/or spirits. Down to Earth is probably the description I'm looking for. And the real kicker, what separates this game from just about every western game: NONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS ARE COMPLETELY SURE THEIR STRUGGLE IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. This is further emphasised during the 'can you hear the cry of the planet' moments, and even during the ending. While ending on such a note isn't unique to FF7 (arguably, the Xenosaga saga ended in a similar way), I find that the games that do are generally memorable experiences.
(And YES, you can ABSOLUTELY argue about how well the text and the rest of the game portrays this, but that's beside the point of this post.)

And, last but certainly not least: INSPIRATION!
YES! Final Fantasy VII is the result of inspiration! This was brought about by a personal tragedy, true, (and I do feel for the man) but the important thing is that the team ultimately tried to make it a special game. Not merely 'the next instalment of Final Fantasy', there was a specific experience they tried their damnedest to convey - and I dare say they did a good job of it. Despite poor translation. Despite crude graphics. Despite godawful sound. Personal touch, and small details, rather than grand spectacles and huge melodrama, is what made this game memorable.

*Okay, this point is debatable - but the SOB can swat crossbow bolts out of the air, for smurf's sake! And smack absolutely demonic things around all over the place
**Also debatable, but you get my point. OR ELSE!

Come on in, it's nice and toasty.

Silent Warrior
10-29-2013, 06:22 AM
noxious.sunshine: I think you managed to completely ignore my point - which, in the case of FF7 or FF9 textures was that there were lots more detail in the more recent textures, which, in conjunction with low texture resolution, resulted in pixellated textures. I mean, 9 was certainly pretty, but 7 strained your eyes less. <- My point on the graphics. No more, no less.
Also, the character models in 8 was, together with their textures, a quantum leap from 7. But put a character from a NES or SNES FF game next to one of FF7's field models, and one from 8 or 9 if you wish, and compare their animations. 7 didn't really push any boundaries there - even 8 was a huge step up in that department, and 9? Whoa!
Look, just read that part of the post again, slowly. I'm talking history, not prowess.

Bolivar
11-06-2013, 08:33 PM
So I got bored and actually read that damn wall of text and it was cool to walk down memory lane, I even learned a few things like about the music. A few noted:

VII does actually have some asian influences like the Wall Market and the kind of suits they wear at Shinra. Also Wu Tai but I guess that's obvious.

The graphics were pretty damn incredible at the time. The polygons look crude now but they were super clear and more advanced than almost anything else in its day. Sure they got better but it was a trade-off: 8 and 9 have comparably slow battles with even lower framerates.

You're right, Geralt actually does fall into the superhuman category you guessed. His hair is white because he was subjected to a higher degree of Witcher mutations than the rest of his order, so advanced that he's the only one who's ever survived them.

Looking back, it's hard to believe people used to hate FFVII and argue that it was actually a bad game. But they did. It's cool to see people gtow to like it over time.

Omni-Odin
11-07-2013, 02:32 PM
Superb game. My favorite. Everyone can have their opinion, but no game has ever stuck with me like VII did. I think an incredible amount of care went into it and a gem came out the other side. (Wait...what?)

Mirage
11-07-2013, 04:45 PM
noxious.sunshine: I think you managed to completely ignore my point - which, in the case of FF7 or FF9 textures was that there were lots more detail in the more recent textures, which, in conjunction with low texture resolution, resulted in pixellated textures. I mean, 9 was certainly pretty, but 7 strained your eyes less. <- My point on the graphics. No more, no less.
Also, the character models in 8 was, together with their textures, a quantum leap from 7. But put a character from a NES or SNES FF game next to one of FF7's field models, and one from 8 or 9 if you wish, and compare their animations. 7 didn't really push any boundaries there - even 8 was a huge step up in that department, and 9? Whoa!
Look, just read that part of the post again, slowly. I'm talking history, not prowess.
Wow, someone other than me agrees with me on the "FF9 tried to have better graphics than what the hardware could deal with" thing. Good to know I'm not alone.

MJN SEIFER
12-05-2013, 07:42 PM
This was very well written, it's nice to see that some people aren't afraid to show praise for FFVII. I really enjoyed reading it. Well done.

Ayen
12-06-2013, 02:59 AM
This was very well written, it's nice to see that some people aren't afraid to show praise for FFVII.

You know people who are afraid to show praise for VII? Usually it's the people who didn't like the game that are o.o

MJN SEIFER
12-06-2013, 12:13 PM
This was very well written, it's nice to see that some people aren't afraid to show praise for FFVII.

You know people who are afraid to show praise for VII? Usually it's the people who didn't like the game that are o.o
I mean like, they're afraid of looking like they're jumping on the bandwagon or something, because FFVII was popular/a big deal once, meaning that many who hate it find it "overrated", and when something is "overrated" very few people online believe you can just like it based on their own opinion (even though they can and they do) they all think you're pretending to like it either because it's cool, or for trolling. It's sad really.

I just like what I like.

silentenigma
12-08-2013, 08:12 PM
This was a refreshing read, OP. A quick note I have on Tifa: The game does tell you how she got to Midgar after the Nibelheim incident - her trainer finds her unconscious in the reactor and takes her to Midgar since medicine is more advanced there.

Also I was surprised you didn't mention her strengths as a character due to her weakness - wanting to keep tabs on Cloud but always being too afraid to meaningfully bring up his past, being indecisive and allowing his problems to escalate...a very human shortcoming that is rarely depicted among bands of game-heroes.

Raistlin
12-08-2013, 08:41 PM
I didn't read all of it, but I have to give you credit for correct usage of that Shakespeare line.

Also FFVII is just a fun game. Technically flawed and unpolished in some aspects, certainly, but a very enjoyable game with fun characters. The first disc ranks up there among the best JRPG experiences in the genre (of course some aspects, especially story-related, get worse after that). I just ignore the rest of the compilation.

MJN SEIFER
12-10-2013, 03:13 PM
I didn't read all of it, but I have to give you credit for correct usage of that Shakespeare line.
To be honest, the main reason I originally clicked on the thread was because I assumed he/she was writing an FFVII hate thread and was trying to ask "Where is the awesome?" or something, which would be wrong, and I was all prepared to write a semi-pompus reply stating "You do know that "Wherefore art thou" doesn't actually mean "Where are you?" right? #trolling." I was suprised to see he/she had used the term correctly, and even more surprised to see a well written article on FFVII.

Seriously guys and girls - read it. It's kind of sad that someone's put a lot of effort into writing that, and I seem to be the only one who's read it.

Silent Warrior
12-14-2013, 05:45 AM
silentenigma: Actually, that bit about Tifa didn't really occur to me as I wrote. In retrospect, I completely agree with you. It added a lot to the experience, the impression that the main adventure isn't everything going on in the game.

Hm, I totally forgot to rave about the simplicity (accessibility?) of the combat/materia system - and thus troutslap FF12 :trout: ... Oh well, whatever. Hey, wasn't FF9 even simpler still?

WildRaubtier
12-14-2013, 12:33 PM
FF9... had a pretty standard JRPG system, except for the magic stones/passive traits system which I guess is a... different... way of handling class abilities?

I remember someone somewhere mentioning that the chibi-esque style of the overworld character models was an intentional style, and looking at them with that knowledge really makes it that much less jarring. Still, one thing that irks me anyway, is that everyone ignores the battle scene models when talking of the graphics. They're a bit jerky every now and then, but they hold up decently against the other PSX games.

escobert
12-15-2013, 04:10 PM
As I said in another thread, it's my favorite game. I love the story and world. I cared about the characters and wanted them to succeed.

Mercen-X
12-18-2013, 05:25 AM
You're right, Geralt actually does fall into the superhuman category you guessed. His hair is white because he was subjected to a higher degree of Witcher mutations than the rest of his order, so advanced that he's the only one who's ever survived them.

Who's Geralt?

Silent Warrior
12-19-2013, 04:34 AM
Mercen-X: Try The Witcher® 3: Wild Hunt (http://www.thewitcher.com). :) (Oh, you should probably try to be older than 18 when you go there, though... Violent affair, those games, and trailers in abundance.) Or just do a search for "Geralt Witcher" and you shall find plenty.