Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

[ShunNakamura]

Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham - HD - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI)

So anyone watch this? I suppose watch isn't right for me. I was on other tabs, but I did listen. I wish it had been on TV. I think I missed some graphs/slides or some such.

However, I am not sure I would describe them as the most elegant speakers I have ever heard. I mean Nye even made a call out to the Seahawks(ok, that made me laugh). I'll admit I haven't listened too closely. Seems most of it is the standard rehashing.

So am I the only one bored enough to put this on?

[noxious.sunshine]

I listened to about 10 minutes, but got distracted and bored. lol

[ShunNakamura]

I listened to about 10 minutes, but got distracted and bored. lol

Yeah, I sorta checked out at first. They are at the question and answer phase. It is a bit faster paced now and in general more interesting. So far it seems Nye saying Science doesn't know everything and about the joy of discovery. While Ham seems to keep saying 'there is a book out there that answers that'.

So maybe not that interesting.

[Freya]

I was behind when it started, was getting off work so I listened to Ken ham's first point for about 15 mins then was able to skip the rest cause, COME ON. He was basically using the point "see other scientist agree, that means i'm right." I just finished listening to Bill's first 30 min one. Listen to the whole part there. He was basically fact fact. "This tree is older than 6000 years. Sooooo the earth can't be just 6000 years old".


I'm on the rebuttals now. Bill is kicking his butt. Haha

[ShunNakamura]

I'm on the rebuttals now. Bill is kicking his butt. Haha
As bad as the Seahawks kicked the Broncos?

[Dr Unne]

Debating creationists lends them credence, like their view is one of several valid views, when it isn't. I wish scientists wouldn't engage with them.

[Freya]

He just called what Ham does is like magic, and while he appreciated it as a kid it's not what science needs xD

Nye is doing this cause ham has been bothering him about it forever now. He finally was like FINE.

I'm on the Q & A now. This should be good.

[Del Murder]

What's the opposing view to creationism? Evolution? Or are we talking Big Bang here?

[Freya]

Ken ham has a museum stating with "scientific fact" that the world/universe is only 6000 years old.

Bill Nye states, that's silly because of actual scientific facts.

It's supposed to be Evolution/big bang/anything in normal science vs creationism of the whole 6000 years fact.

[Shlup]

Evolution, yeah. Nye's basic stance is that a literal interpretation of the Bible has no place in science, and giving it attention holds society back. Ham's stance is that science and a literal interpretation of the Bible can go hand-in-hand because scientific evidence of the past is open to interpretation and there are Christian scientists who have made significant contributions to science (such as the guy who created the MRI machine).

I'm only on Ham's opening argument though.

[Freya]

His whole point for the opening point and his first 30 is "these guys are scientists! That means i'm correct" basically. Which, come on.

[Del Murder]

Ok thanks. I was confused by Unne's statement because a creationist theory for the initial creation of the universe is worth debating amongst other explanations, but obviously the Bible and the 6000 years thing is a bunch of hooey and doesn't deserve the time of day.

[Dr Unne]

Yeah, sorry, I'm referring to young-earth creationists, which is what Ken Ham is.

His Creation Museum has exhibits of science-wrecking-balls smashing down churches, and little kids playing with dinosaurs and crap.

[Pumpkin]

I don't want to listen to this. People who say the Earth is only 6000 years old give other religious people who know better a bad name. They've pretty much proven the Earth is more than 6000 years old, guys. Please stop.

[Shlup]

When Bill was doing the math to show that creationism's "evolutionary orchard" (versus evolutions "tree") would mean that for the past 4000 years there would be at least 11 new species evolving a day, they showed for a moment what I assume was the creationist half of the audience, all super frowny as hell with their arms crossed. xD

[Freya]

All you need to know about the debate summed up in one picture.

http://i.imgur.com/a16ltnx.jpg

[Shlup]

I was trying to think of a way to sum this thing up, but that fucking nails it. xD

[Freya]

I changed it to a clearer picture. Sadly... that was his face most the time so you can take near any of the screens haha

[Shlup]

The way he shook his head and scrambled for his pen when Ham started talking about ice just appearing.

Summary of Nye's argument: We can observe these things, and infer based on them that this is how things happened.

Summary of Ham's argument: You didn't see it, so for some reason all scientific observation is invalid.

http://i.imgur.com/tienASF.jpg

Literally that face the whole Q&A time. Ahahaha

For those lamenting Bill even doing this, he brought it back to the importance of science education and fostering STEM interests in our youth at every possible opportunity. He wasn't there to change fundie minds; his agenda was to reach any non-fundie and show them what kind of trout we're up against.

[Freya]

Bill was the best person for this kind of debate. Mainly because he doesn't get flustered and angry. Even with the most ridiculous claims, he stays calm and even cracks jokes.

[Ayen]

Bill Nye's face is priceless.

[TrollHunter]

I watched the entire thing... and oh god it basically went in circles. I'm glad I watched it because it was awesome at first... but by god was it dragging in the end. I swear, kens entire strategy was based around directly answering as few questions as possible.

This kind of debate almost ends up going nowhere anyway... so I can't say I was really surprised.

[Shlup]

I'm at 2:27 where Nye busts Ham for saying that there are parts of the Bible he views as literal and parts he views as poetry. I'm glad even nutbag Ham couldn't get behind stoning people for touching pig skin. That was just poetry, apparently.

[Freya]

The Q&A is the best part. Cause Nye gets to refute him fairly quickly. He rambles a bit sometimes though.

[Ayen]

I'm at 2:27 where Nye busts Ham for saying that there are parts of the Bible he views as literal and parts he views as poetry. I'm glad even nutbag Ham couldn't get behind stoning people for touching pig skin. That was just poetry, apparently.

Don't forget the sky being made out of water and the earth being created in six days.

[Tavrobel]

http://i.imgur.com/d9QD3EC.png

[escobert]

A guy I work with says the planet is only 6,000 years old AND here's the best part, the world was covered in a bubble and that bubble popped and it caused the great flood! and that's where our oceans come from. and men walked with dinos and giants!

[Pumpkin]

I met a man who says that the Earth was covered in ice or something. Like the whole planet was just surrounded by... ice... or something like that.

I kind of tuned most of it out.

[Ayen]

Man, even the host of the 700 Club acknowledges the planet is billions of years old just from looking at dinosaur bones.

[Raistlin]

Unfortunately I don't have the time/energy to watch this whole thing during the week, but I'm going to try this weekend. Bill Nye is great, and Ken Ham is a loon.

[escobert]

I met a man who says that the Earth was covered in ice or something. Like the whole planet was just surrounded by... ice... or something like that.

I kind of tuned most of it out.
I hear ya. the worst part is I really really like the guy. He's VERY nice, intelligent for the most part. Knows TONS of stuff in the woods and has a green thumb like no other. He even states he believed in evolution while a high school student but "the facts told him otherwise" once he became more religious. As you can imagine I had some pretty lively debates with him about his views. He doesn't believe alien life is possible. So I asked him if god created the earth and all of the planets, why would he only put life on one? He replied that he likes to look at the rest of space since it's pretty, you know like a toy train set xD

[Ayen]

Yeah, I have a friend I've known since 2008 that's intelligent and awesome for the most part, then I found out she was a creationist and thought the 'evidence' science have uncovered was mostly made up.

I just slowly backed away. I saw nothing good coming out of that discussion.

[Dr Unne]

FYI all of this ice and water in the sky stuff is referencing Genesis 1:6-8:


6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

It was a giant dome made of ice or crystal or magic, and it held a huge amount of water above it. Holes would open up in the dome and that's where rain came from. Young-earth creationists believed that this actually existed, and that it's why (for example) people had a lifespan of 1000 years in the Old Testament, and it's where all the water came from for Noah's flood. This is called Canopy Theory.

This is Ken Ham's website discussing it: Noah's Flood - Where did the water come from? (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/tools/flood-waters.asp)

[escobert]

interesting. I had never heard anything of this theory until Dan at work mentioned it.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

I've heard of that theory, and the physics would simply be impossible on so many different levels.

I don't see how they can refute demonstrable science that can be backed up with repeatable results and yet claim to have "the facts" from a very old book and no way to back those "facts" up, yet still claim to be scientists.

[Slothy]

I don't see how they can refute demonstrable science that can be backed up with repeatable results and yet claim to have "the facts" from a very old book and no way to back those "facts" up, yet still claim to be scientists.

I guess it's not that hard when you just lie.

[Dr Unne]

I don't know if they're lying. I think they believe that God told them the truth, so everything that doesn't agree with that must be a lie, no matter how convincing it sounds.

Fossils? Maybe scientists are lying about where they found them. Maybe scientists did the math wrong. Maybe they're interpreting it wrong. Maybe Satan put fossils in the ground. Maybe God is testing us. The global flood is impossible because of physics? Maybe God changed physics after the flood. Maybe there are more physics that we haven't discovered yet. Evolution is starting to sound convincing? It's not true, it's a problem with your imperfect mind. It's Satan tempting you. The answer is believe harder in God.

You can build a 100% consistent view of the world using this framework, and it's not easy to dispel. That's the danger of faith.

[The Man]

Bill Hicks had a good routine about creationism:

“Fundamentalist Christianity: fascinating. These people actually believe that the world is twelve thousand years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them.

"Well, we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages? Twelve thousand years."
"Well, how fucking scientific, OK. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble there. That's good. You believe the world's twelve thousand years old?"
"That's right."
"OK, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?"
"Uh huh."
"Dinosaurs."

You know, the world's twelve thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, and existed in that time, you'd think it would been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point:

And O, Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in its paw. And the disciples did run a-screamin'. "What a big fucking lizard, Lord!"
"I'm sure gonna mention this in my book," said Luke.
"Well, I'm sure gonna mention it in my book," said Matthew.
"I'm not sure what I saw," said Thomas.
Timothy nudged him. "It was a big fuckin' lizard, Thomas!"
But Jesus was unafraid. And he took the splinter from the brontosaurus paw, and the brontosaurus became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch, O so many years, attracting fat American families with their fat fuckin' dollars to look for the Loch Ness Monster. And O the Scots did praise the Lord: "Thank you, Lord! Thank you, Lord!"

Twelve thousand years old. But I actually asked this guy, "OK, dinosaur fossils-- how does that fit into your scheme of life? What's the deal?" He goes:

"God put those here to test our faith."
"I think God put you here to test my faith, dude. I think I've figured this out."

Does that-- That's what this guy said. Does that bother anyone here? The idea that God might be fucking with our heads? Anyone have trouble sleeping restfully with that thought in their head? God's running around burying fossils: "Ho ho! We'll see who believes in me now, ha ha! I'm a prankster God. I am killing me, ho ho ho!" You know? You die, you go to St. Peter:

"Did you believe in dinosaurs?"
"Well, yeah. There were fossils everywhere. (trapdoor opens) Aaaaarhhh!"
"You fuckin' idiot! Flying lizards? You're a moron. God was fuckin' with you!"
"It seemed so plausible, aaaaaahh!"
"Enjoy the lake of fire, fucker!"

They believe this. But you ever notice how people who believe in Creationism usually look pretty unevolved. Eyes really close together, big furry hands and feet? "I believe God created me in one day." Yeah, looks like he rushed it.

Such a weird belief. Lots of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he's gonna want to see a fucking cross, man? "Ow." Might be why he hasn't shown up yet.

"Man, they're still wearing crosses. Fuck it, I'm not goin' back, Dad. No, they totally missed the point. When they start wearing fishes, I might show up again, but... let me bury fossils with you, Dad. Fuck 'em, let's fuck with 'em! Hand me that brontosaurus head, Dad."”

[Slothy]

I'm sure not all of them are lying, but I do wonder about the ones using this garbage to try and make money.

[Shlup]

"Did you believe in dinosaurs?"
"Well, yeah. There were fossils everywhere. (trapdoor opens) Aaaaarhhh!"
"You smurfin' idiot! Flying lizards? You're a moron. God was smurfin' with you!"
"It seemed so plausible, aaaaaahh!"
"Enjoy the lake of fire, smurfer!"

Best part. Like, do Christians not realize their god is a total ass?

[Slothy]

"Did you believe in dinosaurs?"
"Well, yeah. There were fossils everywhere. (trapdoor opens) Aaaaarhhh!"
"You smurfin' idiot! Flying lizards? You're a moron. God was smurfin' with you!"
"It seemed so plausible, aaaaaahh!"
"Enjoy the lake of fire, smurfer!"

Best part. Like, do Christians not realize their god is a total ass?

Apparently not. And we don't even need the idea that he's screwing with us by putting fossils everywhere to come to that conclusion. If you can make it through Genesis without realizing God's a dick, you're probably a creationist.

[Jinx]

RE: The Man: Some Christians believe that the dragons mentioned in the Old Testament are what we know as dinosaurs today. Of course I don't agree with thim, but I suppose it's a justifiable correlation to make if you're trying to reconcile the two. Some Christians figure it probably just wasn't mentioned because not every animal in the world is mentioned in the Bible.

RE: Thread: I shouldn't have to say this, but I hope that you guys realize that a majority of Christians don't actually believe in Young Earth Creationism. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and of course I meant YEC. But even growing up in the most recognizably fundamentally Christian zone in the world, more people than not were Old Earth Creationists. Some even reconciled Evolution with Creationism, because they weren't ready to disparage science.

I just want people to remember this, because it's easy to put blinders on when you're poking fun at a group of people you don't like. :)

[Slothy]

RE: Thread: I shouldn't have to say this, but I hope that you guys realize that a majority of Christians don't actually believe in Young Earth Creationism. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and of course I meant YEC. But even growing up in the most recognizably fundamentally Christian zone in the world, more people than not were Old Earth Creationists. Some even reconciled Evolution with Creationism, because they weren't ready to disparage science.

I just want people to remember this, because it's easy to put blinders on when you're poking fun at a group of people you don't like. :)

Of course. Even amongst Christians, YEC's are a pretty fringe group as I understand it. When even the Catholic Church says you're full of shit and evolution is real, it's time for those people to take notice.

If I didn't make it clear before, anything I said disparaging religion and Christians in this thread was specifically directed at the YEC kind, since that's the kind Bill Nye had to debate.

[Pumpkin]

Of course. Even amongst Christians, YEC's are a pretty fringe group as I understand it. When even the Catholic Church says you're full of trout and evolution is real, it's time for those people to take notice.

Was just talking to sharky about this.

[Ayen]

If I didn't make it clear before, anything I said disparaging religion and Christians in this thread was specifically directed at the YEC kind, since that's the kind Bill Nye had to debate.

Likewise. It's comforting knowing they're the minority.

[Dr Unne]

Of course. Even amongst Christians, YEC's are a pretty fringe group as I understand it.


Likewise. It's comforting knowing they're the minority.

NNNNNNNNNNNNNOPE! In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins (http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/Hold-Creationist-View-Human-Origins.aspx)

[Pumpkin]

Well that's just sad.

I think before I moved to the U.S. I was fortunate enough to not have met anyone to my knowledge that believed in creationism.

[Raistlin]

Yeah the actual numbers are depressing. Polls have consistently shown that roughly half of the entire US does not believe in evolution. That's a significant majority of American Christians. That's not true of most other Western countries, however.

Fortunately, I believe most of that is out of simple ignorance. With the ever-increasing access to information, hopefully that percentage drops -- just as the percentage of religiously-inclined Americans has been declining. My guess is that it's an inevitable trend.

[Shlup]

That's 46% of Americans, not just American Christians?? I am so sad now.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/p_yjcwwaxuor-xzl2te4qa.gif
My uncle is right! Colleges are liberal factories out to destroy our godly nation with thinking and knowledge! Noooo!

[Slothy]

There is a difference between creationism and Young Earth Creationism I believe. Don't ask me how because I largely tune out anyone once they say the word Creationism.

That's still depressing, though technically, the minority. I think those percentages would look a bit different in other countries. Probably not where they should be, but I really hope the rest of the west isn't that stupid.

[Ayen]

Of course. Even amongst Christians, YEC's are a pretty fringe group as I understand it.


Likewise. It's comforting knowing they're the minority.

NNNNNNNNNNNNNOPE! In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins (http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/Hold-Creationist-View-Human-Origins.aspx)

You just couldn't let us have the comforting thought.

[Pumpkin]

Polling creationism in Canada | NCSE (http://ncse.com/news/2008/08/polling-creationism-canada-001375)

Slightly less depressing in Canada, but not by much :stare:

[Slothy]

Polling creationism in Canada | NCSE (http://ncse.com/news/2008/08/polling-creationism-canada-001375)

Slightly less depressing in Canada, but not by much :stare:

44 percent?! 44 fucking percent?!

That's it, I'm getting my bow. Waiting for these people to die of old age is taking too long.

[Shlup]

Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.
It's possible their poll was flawed and many who answered "yes" believe God created everything, but billions of years ago... I'm going to decide to cling to that hope.

[Slothy]

You can have your hope. I'm still putting my faith in deadly force.

[Dr Unne]

22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/messages-from-creationists-to-people-who-believe-in-evolutio)

[Ayen]

Polling creationism in Canada | NCSE (http://ncse.com/news/2008/08/polling-creationism-canada-001375)

Slightly less depressing in Canada, but not by much :stare:

44 percent?! 44 smurfing percent?!

That's it, I'm getting my bow. Waiting for these people to die of old age is taking too long.

Today on Hunting with Vivi!

[Slothy]

22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/messages-from-creationists-to-people-who-believe-in-evolutio)

If those people holding those signs truly believe those things then there is no hope for them. Anyone who brings up stuff like thermodynamics and says it disproves evolution pisses me off because it shows how little they know about the thing they're trying to use as proof.

[Shlup]

AHHH!

1. Yes.

2. No. Prove their is one.

3. With zero proof? Yes.

4. He directly addressed that issue!

5. Die.

6. This is not a thing.

7. What about it?

8. From life. It's awesome as-is.

9. Yes.

10. Fair enough. But not 6000 years ago.

11. Wat.

12. Read more, please.

13. Maybe? Wtf?

14. Creationism is a theory like you being made of my poop is a theory. Both were made up by someone.

15. Another person who doesn't know what "theory" means.

16. An actual interesting question! Hooray! I don't know though.

17. Life is good enough as it is without needing to make up superficial "meaning."

18. Because the earth is really big and bones are really small? Why have we found not a single thing to prove your story?

19. Depends on what you believe about it.

20. Some would argue that the lack of a creator makes it even more amazing.

21. Good question! You can try to find out, or you can just rely on a story in a book and stop looking for answers.

22. I haven't met your parents, but more of us didn't come from monkeys.

If Bill Nye would respond to each question on his Facebook I would be soooo happy.

[Slothy]

About number 18 Shlup: most remains never fossilize. Hell, even going for a walk in the woods and trying to find remains of any kind is difficult. Most break down or are consumed and destroyed by predators.

And as for 21: no one should be allowed to ask this without answering where god came from. And if the words "I don't know," "he always existed," etc. leave their lips ask why it's okay for God to spontaneously exist but not a Universe. It's one of the biggest cop out questions they have because the same burden of explanation doesn't seem to apply to their silly bull shit.

Fossil evidence is another cop out question from them as well to be honest. No matter how many intermediate evolutionary steps you find, there will always be more and they'll keep asking for it, ignoring the mountains of evidence accumulated in the mean time.

[Ayen]

I could only make it to #14 before I just zoned out.

[Raistlin]

16. An actual interesting question! Hooray! I don't know though.

For everyone else, the question was: "What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process?" It's a more eloquent version of a common creationism trope: evolution is invalid because evolution cannot add information. As with most anti-evolutionist claims, it is completely bogus (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html).

[Shlup]

Neat! I figured as much; I was just too lazy to look it up.

[Black Magic Shopkeeper]

I wind up agreeing and disagreeing with some things from both sides, except for the end, something Bill Nye said.

Still, I'm glad they're both able to speak in the same room, heck even TO each other, without venom. But I feel like Neil DeGrasse Tyson would be NAILING it. He just has a way of getting my blood pumping when he starts talking about 'the beginning of life' in all his excitement.

[Shlup]

Nye was able to speak without venom only because he's a classy mofo. Ham deserved a good smack.

[NeoCracker]

While it may be a minority, the numbers from the 2007 Gallup Poll on the subject show that 49% of americans believe in evolution, 48% do not, and 2% have no opinion.

And when asked if the believed in creationism, the Idea that god created us in our present form in the past 10.000 years 39% said definately true, 24% said probably true.

These numbers are astonishingly horrifying.

Majority of Republicans Doubt Theory of Evolution (http://www.gallup.com/poll/27847/Majority-Republicans-Doubt-Theory-Evolution.aspx)

It's sad that debates like this happen in this day and age, but the matter is they need to happen. The numbers that disbelieve evolution and even the numbers that believe we came about our current form within the last 10,000 years (I believe the earliest it is believed to have been is 100,000 years, but I may be a bit off on that number) is something that needs to be dealt with.

It's way too many people to brush off as an unimportant minority.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

On the bright side, official Roman Catholic position supports evolution!

As far as I am aware and have been told, Young Earth Creationism and Intelligent Design remain largely a North American phenomenon and has significant less presence outside of NA. I could be wrong here but that was the impression I was given.

Also, the article regarding Canadians did point to the fact that the word of the poll can change the results. Angus Reid and Gallup asked similar questioned worded very differently. So there is ambiguity there!



And as for 21: no one should be allowed to ask this without answering where god came from. And if the words "I don't know," "he always existed," etc. leave their lips ask why it's okay for God to spontaneously exist but not a Universe. It's one of the biggest cop out questions they have because the same burden of explanation doesn't seem to apply to their silly bull shit.

Classical theism would probably respond with the cosmological argument/prime mover argument. Then again, this just shows the strong influence that Classical Greek notions of divinity/Greek Philosophy played in the development of Abrahamic religions. Essentially, the whole prime mover/unmoved mover argument which can be traced all the way back to Aristotle though often popularized by Aquinas (I think). Or you could just go with the whole "God is beyond human understanding/knowledge". Depending on how it is formulated, the latter is far more respectable.

As for "science" is a theory, by definition. No, science is not a theory. Evolution is a theory. Science by definition means :knowledge" and historically refers to systematize knowledge/knowledge system. While in English it has largely lost this meaning and is synonymous with what is called "natural sciences", in French and German its "original" (derived from the Latin) meaning still holds.

[The Man]

The thing about biblical literalism is that, if I understand my religious history correctly, it's only about two hundred years old. No one took all parts of the Bible literally before that.

The other thing worth noting about the word "theory" is that it means "pretty close to accepted scientific fact". The way people use the word "theory" colloquially is the way scientists use the word "hypothesis", which of course, is nothing like a theory.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

The thing about biblical literalism is that, if I understand my religious history correctly, it's only about two hundred years old. No one took all parts of the Bible literally before that.

They did--just were often the minority.

[Mo-Nercy]

I facepalmed with Ham opened with "I'm an Aussie".

[Quindiana Jones]

It's weird. They look normal. *pokes with stick*

[Mo-Nercy]

The whole division of science into observable and historical is bullplop. Ham's idea of historical science is simply "we weren't there to see it, so all sorts of magical, wonderful things could've happened. God is awesome etc. etc." That's not science.. Science is making predications as to what could have happened in the past - not just dismissively waving it off and putting it down to a magical being in the sky.

If anything, Ken Ham's approach to science is more akin to philosophy.

[Quindiana Jones]

I resent your slander of philosophy. :colbert:

[Freya]

51893


Not bill nye but oh well.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I would actually question the inherent/apparent "objectivity" that science is often attributed. Then again, I have been reading a lot of feminist, post-Kuhnian, and/or post-colonial critiques of science lately...The "truth" of science is often a vested interest.

[Bolivar]

^ That's the problem, the word "science" is used interchangeably to refer to: 1) general or specific means of identifying natural phenomena, 2) natural phenomena itself, and 3) the centralized institutions that demand legitimacy over not just facts but the policies informed by them by virtue of their profession.

I find it very interesting that the third category has been more and more interested in convincing people about which ideas they should and should not believe to be true. I also find it fascinating how they've deputized non-scientists into taking up the fight for them, and how passionate these laymen can get over what amount to little more than abstractions that have no practical consequence in their day to day lives.