Who do you think had more development?

[Carl the Llama]

So someone mentioned they thought Zack had more character development then Cloud did... but I kinda disagree, so I wanna know what you guys think about it?

[Ayen]

Cloud. Didn't see a whole lot of development going on for Zack in Crisis Core, but Cloud had more than enough of it in the original game, which is good considering he's the main character.

[Sephiroth]

Zack was one of the latest created characters in Final Fantasy VII-1 and Cloud has character development in almost all parts of the Compilation as he is the "main main protagonist" who will always be more important than Zack or Vincent like Sephiroth is more important than Genesis or Hojo.

So Cloud.


... and then finally into a confident him was nice.

You are always you. And he is always himself just like where and whenever you are is your present and presence. The "him" was not necessary to be like this as you are still yourself even while confabulating.


Zack's journey: Cocky > Hero > Dead *Makes out with Aerith's spirit* (Bastard)


He never did. You need to read Maiden who travels the Planet. The world of Aerith is not just about Zack.

[Psychotic]

I barely even had a clue who Zack was when I first played FFVII. I did so as a kid and I didn't really join all the dots together about his parents, Aeris, etc and just thought he was some random bum.

[BlueD]

I barely even had a clue who Zack was when I first played FFVII. I did so as a kid and I didn't really join all the dots together about his parents, Aeris, etc and just thought he was some random bum.

Same here

[Shaibana]

I barely even had a clue who Zack was when I first played FFVII. I did so as a kid and I didn't really join all the dots together about his parents, Aeris, etc and just thought he was some random bum.

yeah but Zack hardly has any part in VII itself, he is a background characters of the past.

i think its not really fair to judge between them if you havent played Crisis Core :$

[Jiro]

I don't understand the question. Character development isn't measured in, like, something quantifiable*. It's a matter of quality. Cloud gets more on screen time for his character to develop, and his transition from confident ex-SOLDIER into feeble mind-fucked clone and then finally into a confident him was nice. Then he became super fucking emo and lost all the confidence he had gained throughout Final Fantasy VII. While I can understand that, post Meteor crisis, he would have a chance to finally grieve, but it completely deconstructed his character arc.

I'm only like halfway through Crisis Core but Zack's character development is not as dramatic. He deals with stuff like the "defection" of his mentor and all that dodgy Shinra business but basically he turns from cocky to truly heroic and that's kind of sweet even if it doesn't involve a lot of drama or anything.

* Obviously you can have "too little" character development, but having more does not mean better: if Barret ended Final Fantasy VII after having become a repentant anti-hero, a soulful jazz musician, a drunken abusive step dad, Mukki's gay lover, and then finally the founder of Neo Shinra, nobody would be like "WOW WHAT GREAT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT" because it's unrealistic and doesn't work.

[Carl the Llama]

I don't understand the question. Character development isn't measured in, like, something quantifiable*. It's a matter of quality. Cloud gets more on screen time for his character to develop, and his transition from confident ex-SOLDIER into feeble mind-fucked clone and then finally into a confident him was nice. Then he became super fucking emo and lost all the confidence he had gained throughout Final Fantasy VII. While I can understand that, post Meteor crisis, he would have a chance to finally grieve, but it completely deconstructed his character arc.

I'm only like halfway through Crisis Core but Zack's character development is not as dramatic. He deals with stuff like the "defection" of his mentor and all that dodgy Shinra business but basically he turns from cocky to truly heroic and that's kind of sweet even if it doesn't involve a lot of drama or anything.

* Obviously you can have "too little" character development, but having more does not mean better: if Barret ended Final Fantasy VII after having become a repentant anti-hero, a soulful jazz musician, a drunken abusive step dad, Mukki's gay lover, and then finally the founder of Neo Shinra, nobody would be like "WOW WHAT GREAT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT" because it's unrealistic and doesn't work.

If you want drama... wait till you see the ending, they tuned it from a brutal murder into some all american hero who can take on an army >.>

I don't care who you are, you have "thousands" of shinra troops attacking you with guns rockets and swords and even if they are the lowest of the low (like the ones cloud fought in the opening fight) who deal 4 damage, you will be dead after a single strike/shot from every one of them, they turned it from something dark and gritty (as it was in VII) into some miracle man capable of taking over 1000 damage with only 1hp remaining and yet somehow still survive? what kind of ridiculous game mechanics is that supposed to be? It was just square turning it from how it was supposed to be into something blown out of proportion.

[Shaibana]

I don't understand the question. Character development isn't measured in, like, something quantifiable*. It's a matter of quality. Cloud gets more on screen time for his character to develop, and his transition from confident ex-SOLDIER into feeble mind-smurfed clone and then finally into a confident him was nice. Then he became super smurfing emo and lost all the confidence he had gained throughout Final Fantasy VII. While I can understand that, post Meteor crisis, he would have a chance to finally grieve, but it completely deconstructed his character arc.

I'm only like halfway through Crisis Core but Zack's character development is not as dramatic. He deals with stuff like the "defection" of his mentor and all that dodgy Shinra business but basically he turns from cocky to truly heroic and that's kind of sweet even if it doesn't involve a lot of drama or anything.

* Obviously you can have "too little" character development, but having more does not mean better: if Barret ended Final Fantasy VII after having become a repentant anti-hero, a soulful jazz musician, a drunken abusive step dad, Mukki's gay lover, and then finally the founder of Neo Shinra, nobody would be like "WOW WHAT GREAT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT" because it's unrealistic and doesn't work.

If you want drama... wait till you see the ending, they tuned it from a brutal murder into some all american hero who can take on an army >.>

I don't care who you are, you have "thousands" of shinra troops attacking you with guns rockets and swords and even if they are the lowest of the low (like the ones cloud fought in the opening fight) who deal 4 damage, you will be dead after a single strike/shot from every one of them, they turned it from something dark and gritty (as it was in VII) into some miracle man capable of taking over 1000 damage with only 1hp remaining and yet somehow still survive? what kind of ridiculous game mechanics is that supposed to be? It was just square turning it from how it was supposed to be into something blown out of proportion.

i think the thing with that was more to make it dramatic, the DMW was still breaking in pieces

[Hollycat]

If you only play FF7, the clear winner is Cloud. IF you only play Crisis Core, the clear winner is Zack. If you play both, the waters get murky, but I'm sticking with Zack as I feel he truly went from being a cocky arrogant warmonger to a true hero, whereas Cloud went in FF7 from being Zack to being in a coma to being a man who lacks a true identity and confidence. In Crisis Core Cloud goes from being motion sickness guy to afraid of blood guy to unconsious tank guy, to the chosen one. Chosen by who? Zack.

Yes I'm aware in FF7 he does change a little more than I'm giving him credit for, but it's hard to put my finger on exactly what changes. It's also painfully obvious that parts of his true personality were lost between the Nibelhiem indecent and awakening from the life stream. In the end of FF7 he's like a hybrid between his perception of Zack and himself.

[Carl the Llama]

Zack's journey: Cocky > Hero > Dead *Makes out with Aerith's spirit* (Bastard)

Cloud's journey: Weakling > Shinra Grunt > Mental Test Experiment > Cocky/arrogant > Terrorist > Confused > Mental Headcase > High Powered Ex Shinra Grunt > Hero > Sick* > Doubtful* > Hero*

*Advent Children

I'm sorry Hypo, any way you look at it Cloud definitely had more character development then Zack.

[Hollycat]

Zack's journey: Cocky > Hero > Dead *Makes out with Aerith's spirit* (Bastard)

Cloud's journey: Weakling > Shinra Grunt > Mental Test Experiment > Cocky/arrogant > Terrorist > Confused > Mental Headcase > High Powered Ex Shinra Grunt > Hero > Sick* > Doubtful* > Hero*

*Advent Children

I'm sorry Hypo, any way you look at it Cloud definitely had more character development then Zack.

More hardly means better.

[Carl the Llama]

More hardly means better.

http://i.imgur.com/NXAHwHZ.png

>.>

[Shauna]

Zack's journey: Cocky > Hero > Dead *Makes out with Aerith's spirit* (Bastard)

Cloud's journey: Weakling > Shinra Grunt > Mental Test Experiment > Cocky/arrogant > Terrorist > Confused > Mental Headcase > High Powered Ex Shinra Grunt > Hero > Sick* > Doubtful* > Hero*

*Advent Children

I'm sorry Hypo, any way you look at it Cloud definitely had more character development then Zack.

No bias going on in this here post, nope not even a tiny little bit. ;)

As Jiro pointed out, more character development isn't necessarily better, and in this case I'd definitely be thinking of who was better developed rather than how much. Saying that so-n-so was more developed means literally nothing. x}

Anyway, I can't really comment since I've not played Crisis Core. :3 I'll get round to it.

[Carl the Llama]

No bias going on in this here post, nope not even a tiny little bit. ;)

Of course I am biased, everyone who has played both games that posts an opinion is biased one way or another.


As Jiro pointed out, more character development isn't necessarily better, and in this case I'd definitely be thinking of who was better developed rather than how much. Saying that so-n-so was more developed means literally nothing. x}

I never said anything to disagree and while Dak does have raises an interesting point, Cloud (obviously imo) has more character... think about it, who do people relate to the most? Cloud, the character who didn't have his dreams fulfilled, but goes on to do well in his life, over coming hardship to make himself proud of the man he has become. Or Zack, who left home at an early age to live his dream, joined Soldier and had love in his life and died a tragic death? I don't know about you but imo 9/10 times people would say they were rooting for the underdog.

Of course that doesn't mean I don't like Zack, I think he has an amazing character, upbeat and strong while being kind and gentle at the same time... but I personally think that Cloud is the better of the two.


Anyway, I can't really comment since I've not played Crisis Core. :3 I'll get round to it.

You really should, best game I've played on the PsP.

[Hollycat]

No bias going on in this here post, nope not even a tiny little bit. ;)

Of course I am biased, everyone who has played both games that posts an opinion is biased one way or another.


As Jiro pointed out, more character development isn't necessarily better, and in this case I'd definitely be thinking of who was better developed rather than how much. Saying that so-n-so was more developed means literally nothing. x}

I never said anything to disagree and while Dak does have raises an interesting point, Cloud (obviously imo) has more character... think about it, who do people relate to the most? Cloud, the character who didn't have his dreams fulfilled, but goes on to do well in his life, over coming hardship to make himself proud of the man he has become. Or Zack, who left home at an early age to live his dream, joined Soldier and had love in his life and died a tragic death? I don't know about you but imo 9/10 times people would say they were rooting for the underdog.

Of course that doesn't mean I don't like Zack, I think he has an amazing character, upbeat and strong while being kind and gentle at the same time... but I personally think that Cloud is the better of the two.


Anyway, I can't really comment since I've not played Crisis Core. :3 I'll get round to it.

You really should, best game I've played on the PsP.
Agreed, Crisis Core and BBS are probably the two best psp games. SE really won with the PSP

[Shaibana]

No bias going on in this here post, nope not even a tiny little bit. ;)

Of course I am biased, everyone who has played both games that posts an opinion is biased one way or another.


As Jiro pointed out, more character development isn't necessarily better, and in this case I'd definitely be thinking of who was better developed rather than how much. Saying that so-n-so was more developed means literally nothing. x}

I never said anything to disagree and while Dak does have raises an interesting point, Cloud (obviously imo) has more character... think about it, who do people relate to the most? Cloud, the character who didn't have his dreams fulfilled, but goes on to do well in his life, over coming hardship to make himself proud of the man he has become. Or Zack, who left home at an early age to live his dream, joined Soldier and had love in his life and died a tragic death? I don't know about you but imo 9/10 times people would say they were rooting for the underdog.

Of course that doesn't mean I don't like Zack, I think he has an amazing character, upbeat and strong while being kind and gentle at the same time... but I personally think that Cloud is the better of the two.


Anyway, I can't really comment since I've not played Crisis Core. :3 I'll get round to it.

You really should, best game I've played on the PsP.
Agreed, Crisis Core and BBS are probably the two best psp games. SE really won with the PSP

Lol those 2 games are only games i have for psp xD .. that and Dissidia

[Jiro]

Another point of interest:

Being easy to relate to is an important quality for a protagonist. Zack is the protagonist of one game. Cloud is the protagonist of an entire compilation. Zack is given significantly less time to develop, and his character arc is already confined by the time his chance to be the protagonist comes along.

Signposting the development of each character is a little harder than it seems because the changes aren't necessarily dramatic.

Consider, for instance, that Cloud shifts his viewpoint after Tifa corners him in 7th Heaven. He changes again when he realises Shinra is after Aerith, and then becomes more determined once they have her and have fucked over Sector 7. Once he realises Sephiroth is still alive, he changes again. All of this happens within like two hours game time, but the changes are slight.

Cloud's in game arc is great, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Zack's is too. Both are characters that started somewhere and then ended up in a believable, necessary, and resonating place. I think it would be much easier to compare characters of similar positions -- Cloud v Squall or something -- than it is to compare these two who are actually the same person for a period of time. :shobon: