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Pumpkin
03-11-2014, 07:00 AM
For both games, or one or the other, what would you say are the pros and cons of these games? Subjectively, I mean. What are things you liked about them and/or didn't like.

X:

Pros:
-A good number of playable characters
-Despite being so linear, it managed to not feel linear at all
-Interesting areas
-Good music
-Each character had an assigned role in battle, something I'm a huge fan of
-Some excellent, involving, touching moments
-Weapon customization
-Interesting races. Loved the Hypello
-Interesting fiends
-Al Bhed. Great having a second language to learn
-The overdrive system. Being able to choose how their gauge builds, and also being able to save it for a boss fight
-The Auron/Braska/Jecht side story
-Switching out characters in battle
-Keeping your aeons in battle, having their own HP and overdrive bar, etc

Cons:
-Seymour. And all 20 of the fights against him
-The main couple wasn't great for each other, imo
-Tidus
-Blitzball. I mean, I like the concept but being forced to play it is one of the moments I dread the most in game
-Takes a while to get all of the summons
-The Cloister of Trials. Good idea in theory, some of them were just a pain
-The Sphere Grid. Definitely not one of the series better ability systems
-The battle system. I miss the ATB

X-2:

Pros:
-The battle system. This is the one I like the most
-The mission system
-Alternate paths and decisions
-The classic job system, which I absolutely love
-the fun, lighthearted nature of the game
-Seeing how Yuna has developed and grown
-The subject of the two political systems, both with their faults
-Gippal
-Fun mini-games and sidequests
-Access to the airship right off the bat
-Seeing the world developed and changed over 2 years

Cons:
-Not many playable characters
-The pacing of the chapters. Chapter 4 didn't have enough and Chapters 3 and 5 were jam packed by compairison
-Calibrating those Lightning Rod Towers. Huge pain
-Some of the outfits bug me
-I like the lighthearted nature of the game for a sequel, but would have wanted it more serious if it were a main series game
-Bevelle Underground. This game is so easy until you do this part and its just ARGHGASDHAGDAKLFF
-Having to wait until New Game Plus for Mascot Dressphere
-The amount of AP needed to master the Alchemist Dressphere

Pete for President
03-11-2014, 09:49 PM
X: what cons?

I'm a fanboy :(

Karifean
03-11-2014, 10:36 PM
I find it hard to make a list like this. I love both these games and to me they're so packed with pros that any cons seem completely negligible and unimportant.

black orb
03-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Pros:
-A good number of playable characters
-Despite being so linear, it managed to not feel linear at all
-Interesting areas
-Good music
-Each character had an assigned role in battle, something I'm a huge fan of
-Some excellent, involving, touching moments
-Weapon customization
-Interesting races. Loved the Hypello
-Interesting fiends
-Al Bhed. Great having a second language to learn
-The overdrive system. Being able to choose how their gauge builds, and also being able to save it for a boss fight
-The Auron/Braska/Jecht side story

Cons:
-Seymour. And all 20 of the fights against him
-The main couple wasn't great for each other, imo
-Tidus
-Blitzball. I mean, I like the concept but being forced to play it is one of the moments I dread the most in game
-Takes a while to get all of the summons
-The Cloister of Trials. Good idea in theory, some of them were just a pain
-The Sphere Grid. Definitely not one of the series better ability systems
-The battle system. I miss the ATB

>>> That whole list are pros to me, except for the Cloister of Trials part, it was really a pain..:luca:

About X-2...
pros: fun game
cons: the story was a joke
Thats pretty much everything I can say about that game..:luca:

Bolivar
03-12-2014, 01:52 AM
I think the battle system is a little bit of both. While CTB is very well thought out and executed, I still miss my ATB :(

magemasher
03-12-2014, 03:54 AM
I loved the in battle character switch on FFX

Blitzball- I've been undecided whether to buy the HD, blitzball made my decision.

It's quicker just to say I loved FFX, no cons

X-2 really didn't like it. 33% completion on my 1 and only playthrough, that was enough for me, all cons ツ

Fynn
03-12-2014, 01:37 PM
FFX
Pros:
-mostly solid voice acting
-the Ronso (Kimahri is awesome)
-nice graphics for its time
-interesting idea for a world
-great idea for a battle system
-the expert sphere grid
-switching out characters in battle
-weapon customization
-side-quests involving extra summons and celestial weapons
-the summoning system
-gorgeous music, partly courtesy of my personal favorite - Masashi Hamauzu :love:

Cons:
-I'm not a fan of the plot, characters and the writing overall. This is what kills this game for me. It's like none of the writers of this game understand the concept of subtlety or actual human emotions. Not gonna delve deeper into this, lest I turn this into a snarky hate-fest
-linear as fuck, which is probably not an issue if you like the story
-"religion is evil because it's religion, therefore evil!"
-death is so cheap in this world, why is everyone so afraid of Sin again? Just don't send them, they'll come back just like Seymour and the entire church of Yevon!
-the battle system would have been way more fun if I actually needed to strategize, you know, because everything was too easy here
-fuckin' Tidus
-fuckin' Seymour
-fuckin' Jecht! I mean, not as a human, but as a character. "Let's write him so one-dimensionally abusive that people sympathize with that Meg Ryan dude! Yeah, that's relatable!"
-forced love plot
-bonus: I didn't like that people didn't get the laughing scene was supposed to be awkward. That was one of the few moments that actually felt charming to me.

FFX-2
Pros:
-light and fun - it knows very well it's stupid, none of the delusions of grandeur X clearly had
-the main trio have great chemistry, even if they're a bit flat on their own
-fantaatic battle system
-the job system!!!
-the 1000 words scene - with that one scene and no dialogue whatsoever, this game made me feel so much more for Shuyin and Lenne that the entirety of X made me feel for Todus and Yuna
-non-linearity and missions

Cons:
-way, waaaay too stupid at times
-the music (with a few notable exceptions; ironically, the piano collections to this are superb)
-Shuyin
-Leblanc and her goons
-on that topic - Leblanc's massage scene made me feel very uncomfortable
-too much fanservice - what was the purpose of this? It's like the entire point of this game was to leave you with a few hours wasted and a sticky controller
-the plot makes no sense in the context of the world, while some visible changes were neat, I don't think society would change so much in such a short time
-the clothing designs. What the hell happened to Nooj?
-implied incest!
-the golden ending is too golden for my tastes, but I guess that's just the kinda guy I am.

Sephiroth
03-12-2014, 04:05 PM
-death is so cheap in this world, why is everyone so afraid of Sin again? Just don't send them, they'll come back just like Seymour and the entire church of Yevon!


And eventually fade away by becoming monsters, with some exceptions that are stronger like Seymour, Trema, Yunalesca or Mika. And even they become monsters - still able to control themselves but who knows - wait for another 1000 years and maybe even they/their selves are gone completely.

All your cons are pros for me, except the laughing thing being incomprehensible for others. I don't care about that.



-implied incest!


Eh, Aniki is disgusting in general if you ask me and I don't like that part either as it totally disgusts me but cousins are allowed.


I find it hard to make a list like this. I love both these games and to me they're so packed with pros that any cons seem completely negligible and unimportant.


Pretty much this.

Pumpkin
03-12-2014, 06:15 PM
I forgot to add the switching characters in battle and how the Aeons stay once summoned, so I added those. The massage scene makes me uncomfortable too.

Fynn
03-12-2014, 09:51 PM
-death is so cheap in this world, why is everyone so afraid of Sin again? Just don't send them, they'll come back just like Seymour and the entire church of Yevon!


And eventually fade away by becoming monsters, with some exceptions that are stronger like Seymour, Trema, Yunalesca or Mika. And even they become monsters - still able to control themselves but who knows - wait for another 1000 years and maybe even they/their selves are gone completely.

All your cons are pros for me, except the laughing thing being incomprehensible for others. I don't care about that.

Except that's just what Yevon says and it may just as well be false propaganda, considering people like Belgemine and Maechen, who are both really old (Maechen is from Zanarkand) and not monstrous at all. And even if what Yevon says about the unsent is true, there's still the Farplane where you can just go and visit the dead. If your story relies heavily on the tragedy of Death, then having it be as unpermanent and trivial is a case of really sloppy writing. Again, I get the feeling the writers do not understand basic human emotion.

As for the religion aspect, I'm all for corrupt churches in my games as long as they have thought and respect put into them (Xenogears, FFTactisc, most recently - Bravely Default). Here it's just so dumb and heavy-handed I'm just speechless.

Sephiroth
03-12-2014, 11:42 PM
You even see bodyless/unsents becoming monsters so I don't know how it is false propaganda which was never implied - that they are a bunch of asses we all have seen, of course. If you are very strong or just stay for a certain reason you can stay longer like Auron but if you don't accept death you get corrupted. People who fully accept death can even enter the farplane without being sent. They still send people after "betraying" Yevon as entering the Farplane os how it is supposed to be. No matter if the Audio Drama will continue something now or not - eventually it will happen, I guess - Yuna and that other guy are even mentioned as senders.

I am a very religious person but I don't take those stories personally or seriously. Lightning Returns with "allmighty God" and all was more "personally" for me but even there it was not shown to be what it was claimed to be, so the allmighty God and it is just a game anyway. There are certain no gos in games for me but those are more sexual and abusive then.

magemasher
03-13-2014, 02:54 AM
The Cinema in Luca was cool. Where you could watch cutscenes again or listen to music.

Karifean
03-13-2014, 03:31 AM
And eventually fade away by becoming monsters, with some exceptions that are stronger like Seymour, Trema, Yunalesca or Mika. And even they become monsters - still able to control themselves but who knows - wait for another 1000 years and maybe even they/their selves are gone completely.

It only took 2 years after FFX. In the end, Mika became a giant snail. What an undignified way to go. And Yunalesca became an incredibly powerful basilisk. Now that's more like it.

Though I shudder at the idea of Trema becoming a fiend. How much stronger would he become, I wonder?

Fynn
03-13-2014, 08:55 AM
You even see bodyless/unsents becoming monsters so I don't know how it is false propaganda which was never implied - that they are a bunch of asses we all have seen, of course. If you are very strong or just stay for a certain reason you can stay longer like Auron but if you don't accept death you get corrupted. People who fully accept death can even enter the farplane without being sent. They still send people after "betraying" Yevon as entering the Farplane os how it is supposed to be. No matter if the Audio Drama will continue something now or not - eventually it will happen, I guess - Yuna and that other guy are even mentioned as senders.

I am a very religious person but I don't take those stories personally or seriously. Lightning Returns with "allmighty God" and all was more "personally" for me but even there it was not shown to be what it was claimed to be, so the allmighty God and it is just a game anyway. There are certain no gos in games for me but those are more sexual and abusive then.

My point remains - if people at large have real knowledge of what the afterlife looks like, it takes away all the tragedy of death. People fear death because they simply cannot know what happens until they die. Imagine that - even if you can't see those people or know that they are suffering but can be saved by this girl in your village, it really makes you much more at ease with death than when all you have are beliefs and assumptions. This is just what I mean - don't explain at length how this world's afterlife looks if you want to focus on death. A lot of other games do this right. Take Persona 3 - the main theme is death and dealing with the loss of someone dear. Once a character dies, they die and they stay dead. There are no implications whatsoever as to what happened to them later. The main characters just need to deal with that crushing feeling of emptiness by themselves. Heck, we don't even have to leave the series - FFIX's main theme was life and death as well! Vivi coming to terms with his eventual death is way more subtle and well written than anything brought in by X's script. I teared up at Vivi's letter. I could not feel a thing at the destruction of Kilika or operation Mi'ihen. Even if I know they might turn into monsters, FFX's world gives you proof that, yes, there is an afterlife. This severely cheapens the impact, and that is my opinion that has developed in me over the years, so I doubt there's anything you can do to change it :monster:

I am religious personally, but maybe I didn't word it well enough. I never said this offended me. I know this is a big thing in Japan, but a lot of my favorite games have the religious institution be the bad guys. FFTactics is one of my favorite games of all time, and yet the codex of Germonique could be considered almost blasphemous, what with Ajora (AKA Jesus) turning out to be an evil demon. And I still love it. I understand the Japanese don't like religion much, but the writers of Tactics did a much better job. Yes, the Church is power-hungry and corrupt, but there are plenty of people outside it who want to abuse it's power, just as there are many people within the Church unaware of it's machinations, but still being good people. Heck, it's implied Ramza stays religious even after all he finds out about this. That's called real faith. And then we have Xenogears where you have a bad god and a real God, but nobody knows about the real one and accidentally worships the bad one which is actually an intergalactic super weapon (to put it simply). Parts of the church are corrupt. Others work really hard to keep the world in one piece after trout hits the fan. What happens in X? Yes, there are good people in Yevon, but once they find out it's evil, they abandon it without a second thought. That's not how faith works. Everybody's just kinda okay with it, when there should be riots, suicides, any sort of conflict. That's my problem with this game's depiction of religion - not that it's evil and corrupt (I got used to that), but that it wasn't given much thought and turns out one-dimensionally evil, and all the masses that were being influenced by Yevon all their lives are suddenly all OK with abandoning religion. Again, understanding of basic human emotion.

Pumpkin
03-13-2014, 09:00 AM
I'm religious and I didn't really take offense to the game. I know the Catholic Church has done some crummy things throughout history, as have a lot of religions. You can have faith separate from the Church, it's a matter of what you believe. You don't need the Church to believe in God. I took this to mean more of a "don't blindly follow things, because in the end these things are still run by people and people can get things wrong and people can be corrupt and people can abuse their power." Which is true.

The Final Aeon/Sin thing ended up being a bunch of baloney, but it started with good intentions. They found a way to defeat Sin, but Sin would come back. So they continued the process because they figured getting rid of him for a little while was better than never getting rid of him. Then people became corrupt and instead of trying for more solutions as time progressed, they just spun this terrible thing (Sin) to their advantage to gain power. You can see some clear cases of corruption, and some more minor, like how they ban the use of machina except for themselves.

I think the game also shows a few instances of believing and respecting Yevon, without following the teaching to the T and blindly following whatever Yevon says. Rikku does this early in the game when she warns Tidus to not mention Zanarkand as Yevon says it's a holy place and he might offend someone. This shows she isn't just giving a big F U to Yevon and she respects others beliefs. The Crusaders knowingly and willingly go against the teachings even though they strongly believe in them, because they're trying to do what's right. Cid and some of the Al Bhed sing the Hymn of the Fayth, not knowing its true origins, but knowing it is currently associated with Yevon and teachings they don't necessarily follow.

I never took the meaning to mean that Faith is bad, religion is bad, but more of acknowledging that it has good intentions, but sometimes it falls short or takes a wrong path. So don't blindly follow things and instead question why things are done the way they are and decide for yourself what's right and wrong, a message I agree with.

EDIT: This isn't me arguing with you, Fynn, just to be clear. I understand and respect your opinion, I'm just talking about how the religious theme came across to me :P

Fynn
03-13-2014, 09:28 AM
Don't worry :D I can understand where you're coming from and I can agree with many of the points you've mentioned. For me, it's a matter of execution. I often really like Corrupt Church narratives, probably because I'm also Catholic myself, though I am critical of many of the Church's behaviors (I guess you could call me a liberal Catholic? I'm more liberal-minded, but I still put all my heart in my faith and the Church community), it's just that I don't think it's handled particularly well in this game. I really miss the days of subtle storytelling which are present in both IX and XII, so I can never understand how this game's popularity always overshadows those of the other two. I truly think it's badly written, so while I respect your opinions, after analyzing this game for long enough I cannot bring myself to like it.

Pumpkin
03-13-2014, 09:38 AM
I do agree with you about how death was handled in IX (my all time favorite game). It was brilliantly done, showing different stages of dealing with your own (Vivi's) impending death ranging from confusion to acceptance. And the way he finally accepted it was subtle and touching and wonderfully done.

But I guess that's a topic for another thread :P. X certainly has its flaws, and it isn't one of my favorite games in terms of story telling. I think the best story telling it has is with Yuna through the course of X and then even more so in X-2. But I know a lot of people who would disagree with me on that one. I think they did great with Yuna, and I think they had so much potential with Kimahri and they kind of fell short. He had that great scene on Mt. Gagazet, but he didn't have much else going for him, which was a shame, because he's my favorite character in game.

Sephiroth
03-13-2014, 12:46 PM
And eventually fade away by becoming monsters, with some exceptions that are stronger like Seymour, Trema, Yunalesca or Mika. And even they become monsters - still able to control themselves but who knows - wait for another 1000 years and maybe even they/their selves are gone completely.

It only took 2 years after FFX. In the end, Mika became a giant snail. What an undignified way to go. And Yunalesca became an incredibly powerful basilisk. Now that's more like it.


Yes it took two years but don't forget they were unsents a long time already that is why I mentioned the "variety of time for unsents" but I think you understood it anyway. I also said "even they become monsters" as Yunalesca has her Medusa form and her Chac form and Mika has his Neslug form. Of course Yunalesca and Seymour's incarnations are a bit different but it already shows that dead people work differently and even can use some afterlife powers before fading away and totally being replaced by the monsters they have transformed to. Mika and Yunalesca surely would have more time with the heroes not confronting them as Yunalesca had her purpose and time speaks for them (so from the point of view when they were still normal dead people and their "vanishing moment" in Final Fantasy X has not happened yet) but this is something that leads to nowhere. It was just about all of them some day turning into monsters without their will not being too strong or just accepting death instead and all.

The Via Infinito is some exception anyway because those people actually were forced to leave or purposely vanished except Jyscal and still they appeared there as monsters. Kinoc was absorbed by Seymour and you didn't see him being sent, okay. Jyscal was sent. Mika disappeared but was shown like he chose to go to no longer face what Spira confronts, Yunalesca was not sent with a dance but she also disappeared and Mika was shown to be shocked, so normally it should count as normal sending, Zeyon disappeared from the chamber and so there is a variety of exceptions, et cetera. In fact I expected Seymour to appear instead of Zeyon.

Skyblade
03-13-2014, 07:37 PM
Don't worry :D I can understand where you're coming from and I can agree with many of the points you've mentioned. For me, it's a matter of execution. I often really like Corrupt Church narratives, probably because I'm also Catholic myself, though I am critical of many of the Church's behaviors (I guess you could call me a liberal Catholic? I'm more liberal-minded, but I still put all my heart in my faith and the Church community), it's just that I don't think it's handled particularly well in this game. I really miss the days of subtle storytelling which are present in both IX and XII, so I can never understand how this game's popularity always overshadows those of the other two. I truly think it's badly written, so while I respect your opinions, after analyzing this game for long enough I cannot bring myself to like it.

I don't mind corrupt church stories (provided they're well done). They can add to a world, give it depth, and be quite interesting (Dragon Age does a really nice job of this). I do think they are tremendously overdone in the current era, especially with no real counterpoints being made (and some, like this one, being really badly executed), but I can appreciate the good ones.

But I hate corrupt/broken relegions. A Church is a mortal institution. It is as fallible as people are, there probably will be corruption and problems.

But, while games sometimes show relegious characters in a positive light, relegions themselves ALWAYS get the shaft. The core principles will turn out to be wrong. There either won't be a god, or it will be some psychotic demonic destroyer of worlds. Or, in the case of FFX, all three.

This is why Bravely Default actually has what is probably the most favorable portrayals of relegions I've ever seen in the game. There may be issues with the Church, but the fundamental relegious beliefs are held to be true. There's actually quite a bit more to it than that, but I'm saving that for a thread I'll craft after I finish the game.

Forsaken Lover
03-14-2014, 11:32 PM
I liked Yevon because they were a corrupt church that still had the best intentions. Notice that Mika "sends himself" after he hears of Yunalesca being destroyed. He is utterly distraught at the idea that Sin is now unstoppable and will only continue to ravage the world endlessly.

We can also see in X-2 that Yevon did have an overall positive effect on Spira. There were no rampant plagues of Bandits or thieves like the LaBlanc Syndicate in X. There was also no danger of one of the races wiping out the other, again seen in X-2 with the Ronso and the Guado. (what Seymour did, he did on his own. Yevon itself cannot be blamed for the Ronso massacre)

Overall, X paints a very nice portrait of theocracy as far as I'm concerned. They are making the best world possible out of a very bad and hopeless situation. We forget there were a lot of fortunate circumstances in the game that did not exist before. Appeasement of the giant death whale was really the only choice they had before the game.

Also why do people always think the Yevon religion has a god? It doesn't.

Fynn
03-15-2014, 12:43 AM
I liked Yevon because they were a corrupt church that still had the best intentions. Notice that Mika "sends himself" after he hears of Yunalesca being destroyed. He is utterly distraught at the idea that Sin is now unstoppable and will only continue to ravage the world endlessly.

We can also see in X-2 that Yevon did have an overall positive effect on Spira. There were no rampant plagues of Bandits or thieves like the LaBlanc Syndicate in X. There was also no danger of one of the races wiping out the other, again seen in X-2 with the Ronso and the Guado. (what Seymour did, he did on his own. Yevon itself cannot be blamed for the Ronso massacre)

Overall, X paints a very nice portrait of theocracy as far as I'm concerned. They are making the best world possible out of a very bad and hopeless situation. We forget there were a lot of fortunate circumstances in the game that did not exist before. Appeasement of the giant death whale was really the only choice they had before the game.

Also why do people always think the Yevon religion has a god? It doesn't.

It certainly does not portray theocracy as good. Hell, if this religion has no god, it is not a theocracy. We just have a religion in high power. Yes, Mika sends himself, but that's more out of cowardice than anything. And I don't think they were making what they could of their situation - Yevon is the cause of Sin. The church conceals the truth about who Sin/Yu Yevon actually is just so that they can control the masses. They know all too well you can destroy Sin by killing Yu Yevon, but they do not want Sin to be stopped. That is the very reason this church is corrupt! Instead of wishing for the good of the people, they wish for more power to themselves. Those who don't and really are looking out for the people actually know nothing and thus eave the church once they find out.

Goodness, whenever we exchange opinions I get the impression we played two completely different games :D

Forsaken Lover
03-15-2014, 01:41 AM
I'm pretty sure theocracy just means the nation and government are ruled according to the religion. Religion in turn does not mandate worship of a deity.

And Mika sent himself because "I have no desire to watch Spira die." I guess it is cowardice in that he was afraid the world was doomed to destruction....

Also you should read the origin of the Yevon faith. Maechen tells it to you if you find him on Gagazet.

Maechen
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."
Final Fantasy X | 10 | FFX | FF10 - Script - Maechen - FFWA (http://www.ffwa.org/ff10/script.php?page=p4-02)

Bevelle did all that stuff because from the first they were trying to avoid Sin killing everybody. Mika's complete despair when he hears Yunalesca is defeated is proof enough he was not just some tyrant who ruled over Spira because he was in love with power. He did it because he sincerely believed Yevon was the only way to keep the world even vaguely well-off.

If you look at it, all the villains of the game had their own idea of how best to "save Spira." Yunalesca echoes many of the same sentiments as Mika and Seymour took their logic to its natural, extreme conclusion.

Mika: "Men die. Beasts die. Trees dies. Even continents perish. Only the power of death truly commands in Spira. Resisting its power is futile."

Yuna: "All the people who have opposed Sin... Their battles, their sacrifices, were they all in vain?"

Mika: "Not in vain. No matter how many summoners give their lives, Sin cannot be truly defeated. The rebirth CANNOT be stopped. Yet the courage of those who fight gives the people hope. There is nothing futile in the life and death of a summoner."

Auron: "Never futile but never-ending."

Mika: "Indeed that is the essence of Yevon. Yevon is embodied by eternal, unchanging continuity, summoner."

-------------------------------

Yunalesca: "Hope is...comforting. It allows us to accept fate, however tragic it might be. [...] Yevon's teachings and the Final Summoning give the people of Spira hope. Without hope, they would drown in their sorrow."

And then Seymour sees that this horrible "false hope" life that is perpetuated and unstoppable by all accounts as being far worse than death itself. As Yunalesca tells the group, "it is better for you to die in hope than to live in despair. Let me be your liberator." That might as well be Seymour's motto.

Fynn
03-15-2014, 08:51 AM
Well, who am I to argue. It's been a long time since I played the game and interpretations may vary, I can't really remember that much from the game itself, so some of my arguments may be flawed that way. I may come back with a rebuttal once I read into the script more :D

And no, the idea of theocracy is that there is a god in the center of the religion (theos was Greek for god). Ancient Egyptians had a theocracy because they believed the Pharaoh was a god incarnate, therefore, his will must be fulfilled without protest. So while this often does overlap, just having a religious institution run a country does not constitute a theocracy, like in this example, where there is no central deity.

Sephiroth
03-15-2014, 11:58 AM
You could just read the definition of theocracy if you are not sure.

Skyblade
03-15-2014, 01:57 PM
You could just read the definition of theocracy if you are not sure.

I'll just drop it here to make it easier.

theocracy[ thee-ok-ruh-see ]
noun [plural the·oc·ra·cies.]
1. a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities.
2. a system of government by priests claiming a divine commission.
3. a commonwealth or state under such a form or system of government.

So, yeah, you do kind of need a God to have a Theocracy. As the White Wizard said, "Theos" means "god". Theology? Study of God. Theocracy? Rule of God.

Forsaken Lover
03-15-2014, 09:47 PM
If not a theocracy, what would you call the form of government where laws are all decided upon religious faith and doctrine? Where the head spiritual body are also the leaders of the government?

I'd call it a theocracy because religion does not require a god and so neither does a religion-based government.

Fynn
03-16-2014, 12:30 AM
Where the head spiritual body are also the leaders of the government?

That would make the UK a theocracy, then, as the head of state is also head of the Anglican Church.

Forsaken Lover
03-16-2014, 12:38 AM
Well that still doesn't fit the other part. Yevon is in every part of the government and people's lives. I don't see how this could be anything but a theocracy.

Skyblade
03-16-2014, 06:05 AM
Well that still doesn't fit the other part. Yevon is in every part of the government and people's lives. I don't see how this could be anything but a theocracy.

Then you are either admitting that Yevon is a God (or at least that the people of Spira treat him as one), or misunderstanding the definition of Theocracy, which I added in my last post.


I'm pretty sure theocracy just means the nation and government are ruled according to the religion. Religion in turn does not mandate worship of a deity.

And Mika sent himself because "I have no desire to watch Spira die." I guess it is cowardice in that he was afraid the world was doomed to destruction...

Also you should read the origin of the Yevon faith. Maechen tells it to you if you find him on Gagazet.

Maechen
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."
Final Fantasy X | 10 | FFX | FF10 - Script - Maechen - FFWA (http://www.ffwa.org/ff10/script.php?page=p4-02)

Bevelle did all that stuff because from the first they were trying to avoid Sin killing everybody. Mika's complete despair when he hears Yunalesca is defeated is proof enough he was not just some tyrant who ruled over Spira because he was in love with power. He did it because he sincerely believed Yevon was the only way to keep the world even vaguely well-off.

If you look at it, all the villains of the game had their own idea of how best to "save Spira." Yunalesca echoes many of the same sentiments as Mika and Seymour took their logic to its natural, extreme conclusion.

Mika: "Men die. Beasts die. Trees dies. Even continents perish. Only the power of death truly commands in Spira. Resisting its power is futile."

Yuna: "All the people who have opposed Sin... Their battles, their sacrifices, were they all in vain?"

Mika: "Not in vain. No matter how many summoners give their lives, Sin cannot be truly defeated. The rebirth CANNOT be stopped. Yet the courage of those who fight gives the people hope. There is nothing futile in the life and death of a summoner."

Auron: "Never futile but never-ending."

Mika: "Indeed that is the essence of Yevon. Yevon is embodied by eternal, unchanging continuity, summoner."

-------------------------------

Yunalesca: "Hope is...comforting. It allows us to accept fate, however tragic it might be. [...] Yevon's teachings and the Final Summoning give the people of Spira hope. Without hope, they would drown in their sorrow."

And then Seymour sees that this horrible "false hope" life that is perpetuated and unstoppable by all accounts as being far worse than death itself. As Yunalesca tells the group, "it is better for you to die in hope than to live in despair. Let me be your liberator." That might as well be Seymour's motto.

Yes, indeed. Seymour and Mika. Two people who demonstrate firsthand just how liberating death is. Who see that death has allowed them to put aside all their worries and problems and just fade away into an eternal peace. Oh, wait...


And, again, how did Yevon's teachings spread? They worshipped the entity that was slaughtering them. Not unlike the death cults worshipping Kefka in Final Fantasy VI. For that matter, how do we know that his teachings were actually his? We never hear about Yu-Yevon's teachings first hand. He was a summoner, and that's about all we know. Who taught the people about him? To fear and worship him? That machina were bad, and not to use them? He certainly didn't, nor did he preach about it, since he was kind of in the middle of summoning his "armor" (also, if Sin is just armor for Yevon, why does it slaughter everything? Armor is passive, it defends, it doesn't attack). It was almost certainly Yunalesca, teaching them (as she hung around after being killed) what to believe and what to follow, as Maechen hints.

Also, the fact that people starting the movement may have had good intentions is utterly irrelevant. The religion is wrong, the beliefs are wrong, everything about it, down to the core fundamental teachings, is a lie. Perhaps the lie is being perpetrated for good reason, but it's still a lie. Which, again, goes back to what I said. Religious people (like Mika) may be portrayed positively (although, really, he wasn't. Like, at all), but religion itself always is portrayed negatively.

Forsaken Lover
03-16-2014, 09:16 AM
Seymour and Mika are important characters. Important characters can come back from death. Regular people? Not so much. Hell, even Biran and Yenke and Kelk and whatever other Ronso Seymour murdered didn't come back either. There's also every single Al Bhed since they obviously don't have Summoners to send them all throughout history.

Dead people by and large do stay dead. What you're doing is the equivalent of taking the vocal minority and saying it's the majority, which it isn't.

And yes, Yevon was founded on lies. But they were lies for a noble end. That is supported by everything in the game and that was my only point.

Xenogears had a good religion in Nisam. Also the religion in Star Ocean 3 was all good but I guess it was kind of a lie on account of them all being in an MMO. Also that game is a crime against humanity.

As for the theocracy stuff, I'm still waiting for your alternative government system to describe when spiritual doctrines also determine government laws and the spiritual leaders are also heads of state. Because as far as I can tell, only a theocracy fits that bill.

Fynn
03-16-2014, 09:44 AM
What determines that Seymour and Mika are important characters? I mean, yes, they have an important role in the plot, but in-universe? What would logically make them able to stay alive while others don't? Either others can stay too but you can't see it, or they stay because they know they can stay, unlike the masses, which is another argument as to why this religion is just one-dimensionally evil. And if they don't stay dead only because the plot says the can't, then that just further proves how inept the writers of this game were. And we'll never know, since nobody seems to bat an eye at the fact that they're unsent yet look human, even though Yevon tells them people change into monsters when they die.

I still can't see the noble goal you keep mentioning. Sin is a creation of Yevon and Yevon hides that fact so that they can use people's fear of Sin to unquestionably control them. All they do is so that they can perpetuate people's ignorance and make them faithful to Yevon, even if they do use excuses that people will die otherwise. Well, guess what, Mika. You could just tell people you're an unsent so that they could stay alive as long as they wished to. Oh wait, I guess they can't because they're not part of the plot.

That circular argument that gets used about death being terrible and the only solution is more death reminds me of how Spoony summed up Shuyin's motivation in X-2: "I'm sick of all the violence and hate in the world. That's why I'm gonna violently hate-smurf the planet with my weapon of mass destruction's cock gun."

Karifean
03-16-2014, 12:05 PM
From what I gathered, Seymour and Mika (and Auron too) are able to remain as unsent because they have a strong attachment to the world, a strong will and purpose to remain. They're a lot like Sephiroth in that regard. Everyone becomes unsent when they die, but there are three possible outcomes: 1. they accept their death and peacefully fade into the farplane. 2. they refuse to accept their own death and envy the living which eventually grows out of control and manifests them as fiends. 3. they refuse to accept their own death but manage to not fall to despair as they feel they still have something they have to do, thus they form their own body from their pyreflies and that's the essence of the unsent people.

Also, while it's true that the Order of Yevon perpetuates several lies, I doubt the majority of them are for the purpose of controlling people. I believe that the ones who came up with Yevon's teachings and spread them had nothing less in mind than to give the people of Spira hope, something to cling to, even if it's an illusion. And honestly, I don't think that's changed. Mika cares deeply for Spira to the point where he can't bear staying to watch its inevitable demise. He really does believe that the illusion is the best way to give hope to the people, and that he's doing something noble in perpetuating it. At least that's my interpretation.

Seymour is a more difficult case. He's suffered from and extremely traumatizing childhood, ranging from racism to his own mother almost forcing her belief that he should become a High Summoner on him. Thus, it's unclear whether or not he actually has the best intentions for the people of Spira in mind. It could be that he's incredibly misled into believing death actually does mean salvation, as he himself has largely only benefitted from dying and may believe the same would apply to everyone. He could also be the total opposite of Mika, believing that Yevon's lies are a horrible way to keep Spira going - yet he does not believe that Spira could be saved from the spiral of death and keeping it going is absolutely pointless.

Skyblade
03-16-2014, 03:59 PM
So lying about everything and acting like a complete hypocrite is acceptable, as long as it is for "the good of the people".

...Are you by chance a politician?

Fynn
03-16-2014, 04:24 PM
Also, it's not the good of the people. The church of Yevon knows of a way to beat Sin once and for all. And chooses not to share that knowledge. If the Crusaders had known this, operation Mi'ihen would have been a success!

Skyblade
03-16-2014, 04:32 PM
Also, it's not the good of the people. The church of Yevon knows of a way to beat Sin once and for all. And chooses not to share that knowledge. If the Crusaders had known this, operation Mi'ihen would have been a success!

Well, to be fair, knowing that killing Yu-Yevon would break the cycle isn't the same thing as knowing how to kill Yu-Yevon, since you have to get through Sin first. So Operation Mi'hen would still have probably failed.

On the other hand, if Yevon was sincere and open about getting rid of Sin, there would be a thousand Crusaders waiting each time the Final Aeon was summoned to finish off the jellyfish before the new Sin is formed.

Fynn
03-16-2014, 04:42 PM
Exactly.

But what I meant about operation Mi'ihen is that it could have been planned out differently if they knew they were aiming at the jelly tick inside, not the armor itself. They had loads more firepower than Meg Ryan and his gang, so if only they'd known that they won't destroy Sin by hitting it head on and had to figure out a way to get to the middle of it, it would have been successful. Heck, if Yevon had been honest, the eternal calm would have come waaaay sooner than a thousand years later.

And this is all because these people think that's what religious people are like - you need to follow dumb laws even if they don't make sense and there are better ways to go about things, because we are blind and stupid and gullible enough to listen to religious authorities who ban things just because it to abuse power.

I mean, fucking Shin Megami Tensei is better in that regard. The God there is unquestionably evil, but at least this is based on some real beliefs and antitheist philosophies, jest like Xenogears borrowed all of it's mythos from Gnosticism. There's a lot to hate about those games if you dislike the concept of an evil god, but at least those two games really put a lot of work and effort to make their religious aspect actually reflect some valid philosophical mindset. In comparison, FFX seems like something a teenager would come up with, one who only ever heard of Nietsche at best.

Skyblade
03-16-2014, 07:19 PM
Actually, this is making a lot of sense. Mika doesn't believe Yu-Yevon can be stopped, but does believe that the teachings are important to placating him and keeping him from casually wiping out all life.

That's why during the wedding, it's only Seymour's Guado henchmen who carry forbidden machina, as they didn't grow up with the teachings. And why Mika immediately turns to Seymour and goes "WTF, dude, are you trying to summon Sin to Bevelle and get the most populous city in Spira wiped out?"

And then Seymour has Mika's unsent body turned into Swiss cheese as he makes a hostile takeover of the Church, since Mika cares too much about the teachings and the people to let such actions stand.

And then, since the teachings of Yevon are placating Yu-Yevon, Sin stops by and nukes the entire city.

Oh, wait, that's not quite what happens, is it? Mika doesn't care, neither do the "loyal Yevonite storm troopers", and none of Yevon's teachings turn out to be accurate or have anything to do with Sin's behavior, and the entire Church clergy knows this.

Forsaken Lover
03-16-2014, 08:30 PM
For God's fucking sake


Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Return to Bevelle - YouTube (http://youtu.be/Cl_kwg2yCK0?t=2m56s)

"You've taken away the only means of calming Sin!"

"Preposterous! There is no other way!"

"And the only thing that could have pierced that armor, you have destroyed!"

Yes yes these are clearly all lies he's telling the party. He's obviously BS'ing them for one last grand performance to prove what an evil douchebag he is.

Or...MAYBE...he's telling the goddam truth and every goddam line in the game supports that this is what he absolutely believes?

Maybe?

Yes?

Okay.

Now that we've established Mika did care and was doing the best he could in his own way, let's examine the facts about defeating Yu Yevon.

Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Help from the Fayth - YouTube (http://youtu.be/yFP8mAnNIbc?t=2m50s)

"I'm afraid your swords and magic won't be enough."

Now what are the odds the Fayth ever had a chat with Mika or any other Maester and explain this to them? To quote Ormi "zero, zilch and zippal."

It's not a matter of just whacking Yu Yevon with a sword or even blasting him with a cannon. As stated here and shown in the game, to defeat Yu Yevon you must repeatedly weaken him by having him possess summons and then killing those summons.

But ya know, fighting Yu Yevon is a pipe-dream to begin with. You know why? Because you're not gonna get through Sin's armor with anything less than the Final Summoning. The party only did as well as it did because Jecht had a connection to Tidus and thus he was weaker than he should have been. Any other Sin would have squished our heroes and their airship flat.

So to defeat Sin and Yu Yevon in the game, we had two entirely unique situations that had never happened in a thousand years.

So, no, I don't blame Mika and the others for believing their way was the only way. Until Tidus came along, there really was no other chance of permanently defeating Sin.

What's more, as Maechen said, the leaders of Bevelle were afraid of Sin, for good reason I'd say. They adopted those teachings to try and pacify Yevon.
Did they work? It doesn't matter. They were doing everything they could to keep people alive. If you cannot stop the abomination from crushing your home, why not grovel at its feet? You're not any less dead if he crushes you standing up or kneeling. Better to at least try something to save yourself and your loved ones.

Karifean
03-16-2014, 10:14 PM
So lying about everything and acting like a complete hypocrite is acceptable, as long as it is for "the good of the people".

...Are you by chance a politician?

Was that question directed at me? If so, no I do not condone it, I merely stated that I believe Mika acts this way.


Oh, wait, that's not quite what happens, is it? Mika doesn't care, neither do the "loyal Yevonite storm troopers", and none of Yevon's teachings turn out to be accurate or have anything to do with Sin's behavior, and the entire Church clergy knows this.

This is where reasoning gets a little more complex, so bear with me. As far as I recall, the teachings of Yevon were not made by the man himself. Of course not. The people who feared Sin created them. So since it's been established that Sin attacks larger settlements that start to make technological progress, it's only natural to assume that "machina = bad, it calls Sin". That might've made it into the teachings. However, over the course of 1000 years, the higher-ups of the Order may have been able to more accurately determine just what Sin is drawn to and to what it's not. Thus, maybe they found out that the guns the guards are using specifically are not a cause of Sin's appearance.

Of course, I can think of multiple reasons as to why the church might not want to publicly announce this. For one, a 'mistake' in the teachings would severely damage their credibility, something which the Order must've wanted to avoid at all costs. Second, maybe they were afraid of the guns being used in actual human conflicts, and since the Order of Yevon does still have the best intentions for the people of Spira in mind, they must've tried to avoid that as well. So they did the reasonable thing: not use them unless they really need to. Someone attempting to denounce Yevon is a traitor and to preserve the peaceful atmosphere the teachings brought, they must be dealt with, which is where the guns come into play.

Pumpkin
03-16-2014, 11:32 PM
Nice to see some discussion :D

As far as I know, Sin is ordered specifically to destroy places with a lot of machina to prevent another incident like when Bevelle was so technologically advanced that Yu Yevon summoned up Sin to punish them. Sin destroys places where lots of people gather and/or places that use a lot of machina, thereby halting its advancement.

I don't believe, replaying the game, that Mika and most of Yevon know there is another way to defeat Sin. They truly believe the Final Summoning is the only way. Like people have pointed out, Mika and Yunalesca get quite upset when the Final Summoning is stopped, and not because it ends their reign of power, that's just truly what they believe. They don't know of another way.

Also, there have been, what 5? summoners who have defeated Sin? Yunalesca, Gandof, Ohalland, Yocun, and now Braska. There are many more summoners, but those are the only High Summoners who have defeated Sin. Add to that the halt in technological advancement, and it isn't super easy to figure out there are other ways to defeat Sin. Even so, they have shown improvement. If you look at the timeline:

1000 years ago: Yunalesca defeats Sin
500 years ago: Gandof defeats Sin
230 years ago: Ohalland defeats Sin
??? unspecified: Yocun defeats Sin
10 years ago: Braska defeats Sin

If you look at that, the rate at which they defeat Sin increases a good bit, showing that they are learning and adapting as things progress. If not Yuna, chances are the Calms would get closer and closer together still and someone would figure something out. Heck, Seymour was even on to something, he was just too messed up to do anything properly.

Also add to the fact that this culture of Yevon is so ingrained in them. Its easy for us to look at this from the outside and see how blind they are, but this is such a part of their culture that they don't even think about it. Lulu and Yuna mention this a few times when Tidus asks. Sure, Yevon does have some corruption to them, but when its such a part of someones culture, so much that it goes back A THOUSAND YEARS, a lot of them genuinely believe they are doing good and are on the right side of things. Including Mika it seems. When something is so ingrained in your culture, you don't even think to question it. Its just how its done. Heck I see some of that in some real world countries.

Ayen
03-16-2014, 11:38 PM
Pros: Fun way to pass the time
Cons: Eventually ends at some point

I'm sure these would be better thought out if it hasn't been years since I played.

Forsaken Lover
03-16-2014, 11:52 PM
Getting away from all the other crap for a second, my chief complaint with the story is how short the Calms are. I think a lot of people assumed that Sin was gone for ten years after Braska beat it. It's never said but it's just kind of a common misunderstanding and a logical one IMO. A lot of people think that it just came around again kinda recently when Yuna started on her pilgrimage.

Official timeline shows however that the Calm lasts a ridiculously short period of time. Was it like a couple months? Maybe a year or two? I call bull on that. Dedicating everything to a decade of peace is believable and understandable but not a few damned months.

Skyblade
03-17-2014, 12:55 AM
For God's smurfing sake


Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Return to Bevelle - YouTube (http://youtu.be/Cl_kwg2yCK0?t=2m56s)

"You've taken away the only means of calming Sin!"

"Preposterous! There is no other way!"

"And the only thing that could have pierced that armor, you have destroyed!"

Yes yes these are clearly all lies he's telling the party. He's obviously BS'ing them for one last grand performance to prove what an evil douchebag he is.

Or...MAYBE...he's telling the goddam truth and every goddam line in the game supports that this is what he absolutely believes?

Maybe?

Yes?

Okay.

Now that we've established Mika did care and was doing the best he could in his own way, let's examine the facts about defeating Yu Yevon.

Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Help from the Fayth - YouTube (http://youtu.be/yFP8mAnNIbc?t=2m50s)

"I'm afraid your swords and magic won't be enough."

Now what are the odds the Fayth ever had a chat with Mika or any other Maester and explain this to them? To quote Ormi "zero, zilch and zippal."

It's not a matter of just whacking Yu Yevon with a sword or even blasting him with a cannon. As stated here and shown in the game, to defeat Yu Yevon you must repeatedly weaken him by having him possess summons and then killing those summons.

But ya know, fighting Yu Yevon is a pipe-dream to begin with. You know why? Because you're not gonna get through Sin's armor with anything less than the Final Summoning. The party only did as well as it did because Jecht had a connection to Tidus and thus he was weaker than he should have been. Any other Sin would have squished our heroes and their airship flat.

So to defeat Sin and Yu Yevon in the game, we had two entirely unique situations that had never happened in a thousand years.

So, no, I don't blame Mika and the others for believing their way was the only way. Until Tidus came along, there really was no other chance of permanently defeating Sin.

What's more, as Maechen said, the leaders of Bevelle were afraid of Sin, for good reason I'd say. They adopted those teachings to try and pacify Yevon.
Did they work? It doesn't matter. They were doing everything they could to keep people alive. If you cannot stop the abomination from crushing your home, why not grovel at its feet? You're not any less dead if he crushes you standing up or kneeling. Better to at least try something to save yourself and your loved ones.

Great. So that explains why no one has killed Yu-Yevon (though, again, not why no one has tried killing Yu-Yevon after the Final Aeon already destroyed Sin, while he was possessing the weakened Aeon, any of the four times it had already happened). It is specifically stated that it takes time to turn the Aeon into the new Sin. That's what the Calm is all about. Until the new Sin is fully functional, the Aeon, and thus, Yu-Yevon, are vulnerable. Had anyone known that, you could have had Operation Mi'hen type weapons at least attempting to take down Yu-Yevon in that time.

But, again, I'll give you that point, even as sketchy as it might be.

How does that explain any of the rest of the absolute nonsense that the Temple knowingly and willingly enforces? How does that explain someone who believes in the teachings not just ignoring them, but openly flaunting them. The strictures against machine? The necessity for prayer? The constant lies about atonement? All complete hypocrisy.



So lying about everything and acting like a complete hypocrite is acceptable, as long as it is for "the good of the people".

...Are you by chance a politician?

Was that question directed at me? If so, no I do not condone it, I merely stated that I believe Mika acts this way.

Nope, it was directed to this line:

And yes, Yevon was founded on lies. But they were lies for a noble end. That is supported by everything in the game and that was my only point.



Oh, wait, that's not quite what happens, is it? Mika doesn't care, neither do the "loyal Yevonite storm troopers", and none of Yevon's teachings turn out to be accurate or have anything to do with Sin's behavior, and the entire Church clergy knows this.

This is where reasoning gets a little more complex, so bear with me. As far as I recall, the teachings of Yevon were not made by the man himself. Of course not. The people who feared Sin created them. So since it's been established that Sin attacks larger settlements that start to make technological progress, it's only natural to assume that "machina = bad, it calls Sin". That might've made it into the teachings. However, over the course of 1000 years, the higher-ups of the Order may have been able to more accurately determine just what Sin is drawn to and to what it's not. Thus, maybe they found out that the guns the guards are using specifically are not a cause of Sin's appearance.

Actually, the only evidence in the game that Sin attacks areas of technological progress comes from the teachings of Yevon. Bevelle and Luca both go through the game utterly unscathed. As opposed to Kilika, which is clearly a technological powerhouse.

You'd think, if Sin was supposed to destroy heavily developed areas, that Bevelle would be constantly under siege, and since we've shown that he's quite capable of summoning a black hole the size of a small city, nothing the Crusaders could do would possibly stop him. That entire "stop technology" directive that Sin supposedly has (which apparently is to keep anything from becoming a threat to Sin) really falls short if it just leaves a place like Bevelle alone because of guards with guns.


Of course, I can think of multiple reasons as to why the church might not want to publicly announce this. For one, a 'mistake' in the teachings would severely damage their credibility, something which the Order must've wanted to avoid at all costs. Second, maybe they were afraid of the guns being used in actual human conflicts, and since the Order of Yevon does still have the best intentions for the people of Spira in mind, they must've tried to avoid that as well. So they did the reasonable thing: not use them unless they really need to. Someone attempting to denounce Yevon is a traitor and to preserve the peaceful atmosphere the teachings brought, they must be dealt with, which is where the guns come into play.

"Really need to" being "ensure Yuna gets married". Really? Bevelle is full of machina. Heck, remember the Moonflow? When Wakka tells you of the city that is destroyed because it was a city arrogantly built over the water? Have you seen Bevelle? It's way, way worse. It has machina built into every aspect of the city. Or how do they hide the DOZENS OF FLOATING PLATFORMS THAT MAKE UP THE CLOYSTER OF TRIALS?! Every summoner who goes through the Pilgrimage knows that it's a machina city, and that it's also the most populous city on the planet. It SHOULD be Sin's biggest target. But it isn't.

Pumpkin
03-17-2014, 09:00 AM
The Bevelle thing is a bit... odd. From searching around, it seems that Sin has taken a shot at Luca a few times, but the Crusaders work hard to rebuild it quickly and do everything they can to protect it.

As for Bevelle, there are a few theories. One is that most of Bevelle's machina is underground and/or well hidden as illustrated by Wakka's shock at the large amount of Machina he sees at Yuna's wedding. I am not a fan of that theory. The second one is that Sin mostly attacks coastal towns (Kilika) and things out in the ocean (S.S. Liki, the Al Bhed Ship) because Dream Zanarkand is located out in the ocean near Baaj Temple and part of what Sin does is protect Dream Zanarkand. That's also one of the reasons Yu Yevon wanted to stunt technological advancement is so no one would discover Dream Zanarkand. Bevelle is very much inland, and thus less of a threat. Or you could blame it on bad writing if you want to. It is after all a work of fiction meaning it is possible some stuff just doesn't have an answer.

If it is the second one, you may wonder how no one had discovered Dream Zanarkand. The answer to that seems to be that any ship that goes near it will be destroyed by Sin, and when Cid gets the Airship, its basically a first and they hadn't had time to go exploring and find it, especially since they weren't totally clear on what to look for and where to look for it. Plus they were preoccupied with the whole deafeat Sin thing.

Something I've never understood is why Sin attacks Dream Zanarkand in the beginning of the game. I assume it was to bring Tidus to Spira, but it is never totally clear. Maybe because its a dream, Yu Yevon can basically continue Dream Zanarkand as if Sin had never attacked it, minus Tidus who is now gone.

Karifean
03-17-2014, 05:21 PM
Something I've never understood is why Sin attacks Dream Zanarkand in the beginning of the game. I assume it was to bring Tidus to Spira, but it is never totally clear. Maybe because its a dream, Yu Yevon can basically continue Dream Zanarkand as if Sin had never attacked it, minus Tidus who is now gone.

I always kinda assumed Jecht controlled it to go there and then... things just kinda went their course. Sin is a being that destroys big cities after all. You might guess that Sin is naturally 'programmed' just not to go near DZ (thus preventing it from attacking it), but Jecht forcibly made it go there.

@Skyblade The whole thing about prayer and atonement I assumed was just to bring the people inner peace. If they can pray to be forgiven, that may give them peace of mind. It doesn't necessarily have to do with appeasing Sin/Yu Yevon. It could've eventually been born from the teachings that Yevon was sort of a deity and if you sin you should beg for forgiveness. I mean what do you expect a people doomed for 1000 years to come up with for leading an easier life?