Knights are the best job class, and I am prepared to defend that statement.

[Summon Illusion]

Is there really an ultimate team? Both sides are changing their parties drastically to counter each other, so this is just not gonna go anywhere...I'd say they're all ultimate teams. everyone, throw in a towel please? - -;;

[Mwork]

Originally posted by Summon Illusion
Is there really an ultimate team? Both sides are changing their parties drastically to counter each other, so this is just not gonna go anywhere...I'd say they're all ultimate teams. everyone, throw in a towel please? - -;;


There we go! :)


That's what I've been trying to say for a loooong time; no party is invincible. You just tweak a setup a bit to beat an alleged ultimate party to beat it, then you change that party to win, then the other......

Every setup has another setup that can beat it...

[Yuffie is a B****]

Jay if you keep flaming people and trying to look cool *snorts* than this thread will be locked. Can you guys stop bickering like immature elementry students and get back to having an intelgent debate?
ANyway Mwok I see where your coming from but ultimate does NOT mean ubeatlbl just the best. Notice hwo he said ulimate not perfect. The ultimate team would be the strongest and most effecient not neserily the team thay couldn't be beat.

[Blackmage]

Alright. At least as far as attempting to defeat your knights, I believe I may have a slightly better solution to the matter.

*Lv. 98 Female Ninjas

*Equipped Items*
*Rubber Conscious
*Thief Hat
*Setiemson

*Abilities*
*Math Skill
*Blade Grasp
*Martial Arts
*Move +2

Jay, a MAJOR problem with your knights is the fact that they are a part of the lowest speed characters. They have have Haste, indeed, but any other class (Minus the lancer and samarai) with Haste is faster than your team. I've chosen the Ninja class to exploit that weakness in speed, regardless of their lack of HP that your knights can easily take advantage of without proper protection.
*In the first round, I'd simply cast L3 Doubt Faith until your entire team has innocent, making your Holy trick, as well as any other magic, not work when under the effects of the status; since I have 5 people going at it with the L3 Doubt Faith, depending on your evade, 5 attempts is more than enough to make your team innocent. My team also wouldn't move anywhere, starting them off with a CT bonus for not moving. Orlandu would probably be able to take out one of my chicks as long as he gets Holy Explosion in range. Your other knights would be just wandering around since they can only attack and use their break abilities.
*Second round comes. Supportive spells and initial attacking on my part. Orlandu will either come close to, or kill another one of my chicks; but depending on how close some of my people are to yours, you MAY kiss some of them good-bye. Especially if Orlandu is in range of hitting someone with Holy Explosion.
*Third round. My team will start ganging up on Orlandu. 6 attempted hits would more than likely be enough to have him be hit at least once, if not twice. Kiss ranged attacks good-bye. Your knights may hit one of my three people, depending on the success rate of Blade Grasp, killing yet another one of my people.
*Fourth Round. Calculated Raise 2 on my chicks to get at least two of them revived. If Innocent has worn off by this time, then I'll try to re-cast it. We'll say that it did wear off and I only managed to get three of the four to be innocent, with the guilty knight reviving Orlandu. We'll also say you killed one of the revived chicks.
*Fifth Round. I make sure all of your knights have Innocent. If possible, I'll make an attempt on Orlandu's life. We'll say I don't succeed in doing that. Orlandu then kills that person trying to kill him.
*Sixth round. I manage to revive two of my people, bringing me up to a total of four people. The other one who doesn't revive goes up to Orlandu and succeeds in killing him. We'll have one of your guys kill one of mine.
*Seventh round. I kill another one of your knights with all three of them ganging up on him. We'll say that you've killed one of them.
*Eighth Round. I have one person revive one person. The other one misses a knight. Then that knight will kill him.
*Ninth Round. I have one person revive another one again. Those then gang-bang on a knight, succeeding to kill him. You completely miss me this round.
*Tenth Round. If Innocent has worn off, recast. I get lucky and manage to get all three of them to be Innocent again. You kill another one of my people.
*Eleventh Round. Both of my people gang up on another one of your knights, succeeding in defeating him. You manage to defeat one of my two people.
*Twelveth Round. That person revives another. That other person revives yet another, but you kill the one that I last revived.
*Thirteenth Round. Both of my people gang up on the last knight, but miss. You kill one of my two people.
*Fourteenth Round. I kill your last knight.

Before you say anything about that, I know that a large portion of it is based on luck. But seeing how I have Blade Grasp and the pre-emptive attack on every round, that makes things go my way.

I also have an alternative team.
*Lv. 98 Monks
*Rubber Conscious
*Feather Mantle
*Math Skill
*Blade Grasp
*Magic Defend UP
*Move +3
No haste, but the Feather Mantle's evade as well as the Blade Grasp would make them bloody hard to hit without concentrate. The Magic Defend UP would help them with your Calc. attacks and my lack of HP.

Unfortunately, the only way to tell if any of these setups ever thought up on this thread would work is if we could actually play it out in the game.

And NEVER underestimate the powers of statuses.

[Summon Illusion]

Personally, I'm finding it impressive that this thread is showing very impressive parties that are quite likely to beat sucha team, especially when it's NPC versus generic. Quite impressive, if you ask me.

[Mwork]

ANyway Mwok I see where your coming from but ultimate does NOT mean ubeatlbl just the best. Notice hwo he said ulimate not perfect. The ultimate team would be the strongest and most effecient not neserily the team thay couldn't be beat.


If you're the best.....then you are the strongest, the most superior.....you've surpassed the rest.

Agree?




Now, if there's someone out there who can beat you, then you haven't surpassed the rest, you're not the most superior, you aren't the strongest. In other words, your not ultimate........¿no?

[Tdblitz]

PSSSSSSSSSH. Knights blow.
Master calculators Could ruin ya. And when I mean master, I mean Fully 'quipped with all Time magic, black magic, white magic, and Ying yang magic. You could be petrified, Holied, Fire 3'd ,frogged, demi'd, EVERY Black magic , Time magic , White magic and Ying Yang spell, MINUS the casting cost, and CASTING time. And no, calc spells cant be reflected.


Yeah, I have master calcs, but the only spells they cant cast from Black,white, etc are Cure 4 and Meteor (for obvious reasons). The possibilities are endless, as calcs can judge by height, AT, exp and level, Odd and Prime numbers.
Hahahahaha would sure suck to be you if you went up against me ;).

[Tdblitz]

btw, you could play 50/50 through out an entire battle using petrify, getting some, then missing them this attempt. But hell, its been ages since Ive put FFt into my PSX console, beating it in 1 sitting sure gets rid of its playability huh? :P.
(like, one 6 hour movie if you time it right).

[Summon Illusion]

...based on what you're saying I'd say you haven't even read this thread. I will disregard your message now.

[Tdblitz]

No, I havent. But is there a problem with someone running in, spilling coffee all over your shirt, while the rest of you were already shooting each other with hoses filled with scorching nabob coffee?.

[Summon Illusion]

You're still totally missing the point.

[Mwork]

Tdblitz, the thing is Jay's arguing that Knights are the best Job, if you use them in conjunction with other Jobs. He says Knights with Math Skill are the best..

[Summon Illusion]

Above that, a calculator class party would lose even if it was calclulator against knights, with just abiltiies from their classes (disregarding all magics, since it would sort of defeat the point of math skill if the magics weren't selectable). Even in that case, since an average calculator's speed is 3, the knights would all have 3 turns before any of the calculators would. No, 4. haste's on. Even if the calculators had setsimon (damnit, I can't spell that), then it would still be 3. The knights would reach them by them, and either kill them or break them.

[Tdblitz]

Originally posted by Summon Illusion
You're still totally missing the point.

OK, someone made a claim about Knights being the best job in FFT, and said he was "prepared" to defend that statement.

Ive seen some flame war pass over, with Jay correcting grammer and such, then someone challenging his well done part with a group of 6 female ninjas, and the assumed battle result.

I know for a fact, Knights arent the best job in the game.
Sure, they can equip some tasteful armor, with plenty of attributes, But that wont compensate for their lack of speed, and range. And depending on the map, a Knight could either be at his advantage, or at his worst. TAke the slums battle in the first chapter, the battle just after the wiegraf scenario. 1 knight would have to make quite a climb up those stairs, where those 2 archers are. And a KNIGHT ALONE, would NOT have Move +3. So it would
take quite a few turns to get to those archers.

Tell me, would an ordinary knight be invincible to the random success rate of a calculator? or the calculators math skill?. Its either Jay is ignoring all these factors OR this ENTIRE THREAD is about him obsessing about his own party, having the knight skill PLUS other attributes.

which one is it?.
If its him gloating about his "special knights" with other attributes, then thats him saying " MY KNIGHTS are the best job in the game". And this entire thread is just one persons attempt to gloat about how good their party is.
Trust me, Nothing is better than having a party of 4 , all masters of every job given to them.

Oh, so if it isnt knights in my opinion, what is the best all around job to be in?. The one given to Orlandu, what was it, Master swordsman or something along those lines?.
AN ARMY of master swordsman could rape anything in the entire game. Think about it.

[Tdblitz]

Ok, so wait, what if Orlandus job is "out of bounds" because of its cheap skill? , Im assuming thats what Jay would be at next. What about Dragoons with math skill, Move +3 at the abandoned fort, near the end of chapter 1?. Can Knights really get to the top of that roof?. I dont think so. But Dragoons can!, With one of their abilities, what was it. Jump all? or something? (SHOOT ME! ITS BEEN an entire year since I last touched the game after beating it in one sitting).
Knights cant possibly jump that high, and to my recollection, they only have +1 jump? or something no where near close to +3 jump.

And if timed right, Those Dragoons could do quite a bit of damage. But see, The thing is, Jay added, Math skill, which
contradicts his entire statement "Knights are the best job in the game". And now this sounds like a battle for title of "my party can whoop all parties".

Seriously, if yer gonna change the rules like that, then what makes Orlandu's class so sacred?. What if a whole bunch of Master swordsmen went up against your precious party?, How good would you do then?.

Oh wait, I forgot, lemme give them attributes that werent apart of their job originally, just like Jay. And Make the FALSE contradicting statement like: "MASTERSWORDSMEN ARE THE BEST IN THE ENTIRE GAME."

Trust me, Take any fast class, Ninja, Ramza's Squire, whatever, and add "math skill" with all the spells in their book, and you're pretty much out 50/50, BOTH parties.

[Summon Illusion]

Dude, he has calculator skills on as well. So he'd be able to hit the guys on the roof. Above that, there's Jump+1, +2, +3, AND IGNORE HEIGHT in case you didn't notice.

[Jay Ayanami]

"Jay if you keep flaming people and trying to look cool *snorts* than this thread will be locked. Can you guys stop bickering like immature elementry students and get back to having an intelgent debate?
ANyway Mwok I see where your coming from but ultimate does NOT mean ubeatlbl just the best. Notice hwo he said ulimate not perfect. The ultimate team would be the strongest and most effecient not neserily the team thay couldn't be beat."

For Christ's sake, get off your high horse, Yuffie. You are flaming more than me and as I said before, I am the one who alerted mods to the thread. Just don't be righteous.

As for the arguments about how the team you proposed to play against me being good, you are wrong. That team would fare poorly against any team with low faith. You could have any combination of strong warriors with low faith that would crush them utterly.

And Blitz, you don't know what you are talking about. Clearly you have not read any of this thread at all. Don't criticize until you educate yourself on the subject you refer to. It is pointless and annoying to all parties.

[Tdblitz]

Yeah but Jay, yer claim is kind of pointless then. "KNIGHTS ARE THE BEST JOB IN THE ENTIRE GAME"

When you really arent making that claim, rather "KNIGHTS WITH ADDED ATTRIBUTES FROM OTHER JOBS AND MATHSKILL ABIILITY MAKE THEM THE BESTS IN THE ENTIRE GAME".

So seriously, either Rename the thread, or stick to what you've claimed from the beginning, Because Knights alone arent the best job in the entire game.

[Mwork]

'''''As for the arguments about how the team you proposed to play against me being good, you are wrong. That team would fare poorly against any team with low faith. You could have any combination of strong warriors with low faith that would crush them utterly'''''


I'm a little confusticated here.....so clear this up for me wouldya?

What team is it you're referring to here?

[Summon Illusion]

Couldn't both teams have low faith? Then the average would be the same so it wouldn't make much of a difference. Also, you wouldnt' be able to cast raise 2 or heal yourself with holy very well with the low faith, right?

And um...no comment - -;;

[Tdblitz]

Im going to say it, and say it now, the Best JOB in the entire game, without a doubt is Holy Swordsman with all Swords skill.

Why do you ask? well, If yer like me, and have beat the game a few times, WITH and WITHOUT using orlandu, you'd know that Orlandu plays pretty much like a cheat.

I really think he ruined the game IMO, the second and third time around I beat it. Because well, he's just TOO GOOD. He has the Second best weapon in the game, Excalibur.
Which casts haste and other attributes on whoever holds it.
And all of his Swords skills , and abilities make him one strong sunuva bitch over all.

all Armor damaging sword techs are NEAR TO IMPOSSIBLE to block. Hell , why do you think he was General?. He could bring down an entire army. And heck, If Balbanes hadn't died so soon to his serial killing son Dycedarg, we've mightve seen him kick just as much ass as Orlandu, probably even more.

Orlandu in the least to say, is one cheap sunuva bitch. I mean I felt that what mightve been a horrible and extremely difficult challenge had been deteriorated by Orlandus Allswordskill ability.

CHEAAAAAAAAAAAAp!.
Yes, you heard me. So even though it isnt really considered a "legal" class, since you cant attain it, But if you pitted 5 Master Holyswordsmen against 5 ordinary Knights, Monks, Any class, You probably wouldnt win. Or if you get right down to it, and want to change your chars and add your math skill and what not, Lets make it fair for both sides and give the holy swordsmen the Mastered Math skill ability as well. Yer still screwed!.

So all in all, I think HOLYswordsmen all on its own, can rape any job class!!!!!

[Summon Illusion]

This is so retarded I'm not even gonna bother to respond an answer to it.

[Jay Ayanami]

You need to understand my thread of logic, Blitz. Intrinsic to the Knight is the ability to use a second skill set. This is the skill of every unit. Thus, it is valid to say they are the best since it is an ability of theirs to use other classes. It is other intrinsic traits, combined with this, that makes them the best.

Mwork, I was referring to the team you proposed that acted on Calculated status anomalies.

And Blitz, as for your last comment, I will say that I really wish you would read the rest of this thread before you make more of an ass of yourself. You don't even have to read the whole thing. Really, you only need read the last page or so ...

[Summon Illusion]

Weren't you saying ealier about not lowering yourself as much to go to insult the other person? Doesn't your action...contradict that?

[Mwork]

'''''Mwork, I was referring to the team you proposed that acted on Calculated status anomalies.'''''


Ah. Gotcha. ;)




Still, those Ninja can also attack, physically. The Math Skillin' was only to get to the Knights quickly.

They're pretty good physical fighters, as well. Plus, one or two could always stay behind to heal/strengthen/revive their allies. :mog:

Aside from that, no reaction or support abilities have been chosen for this party, so just slap on Blade Grasp and Concentrate, and they will do fairly well against low-faithed, physical-type opponents....

[Jay Ayanami]

Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?

And Summon Illusion, there was again no insult. He simply made an ass of himself by continuously making arguments already said after I had informed him that he had done so. Ironically enough, we had just finished discussing the matter with another poster. I would challenge you to argue that he was somehow not making an ass of himself. An objective statement. Take it how you will.

[Mwork]

'''''Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... '''''

The same thing can be said about your Knights, you know.....




'''''and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?'''''

I.
What if they don't? A great number of setups don't involve Blade Grasp. Those that don't would likely lose against the Ninja party. Meaning, the Ninja would do well against a great number of parties......

II.
Those setups that do have Blade Grasp aren't as big a problem as you'd think. Firstly, Blade Grasp only blocks out the first physical attack, completely ignoring a second. And, with Concentrate as a support ability, any other evasion is nullified, guaranteeing one hit per Ninja per turn...

[Mwork]

ANYWAY,

This is supposed to be "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights," not "Ferenan's Ninja vs. every other possible setup," so why are we arguing about this.......?

[Summon Illusion]

Isn't it somewhat useless in order to argue about something that is an opinion, though? Again, it changes depending on the view, so it would be worthless to do so.

Personally, I would say that the term 'ass' in general would only be used in an insulting case, you could say he's being annoying or he's specifically doing (insert reason why he's being an 'ass'), if you want an example of how to react civilized in such a situation which the other person is, in that person's opinion being irritable. After all, unless you explain why it doesn't really get anywhere, and is far less rude to the general audience, and doesn't really traitor your earlier statements in anyone's opinion, for that matter.


Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?

And Summon Illusion, there was again no insult. He simply made an ass of himself by continuously making arguments already said after I had informed him that he had done so. Ironically enough, we had just finished discussing the matter with another poster. I would challenge you to argue that he was somehow not making an ass of himself. An objective statement. Take it how you will.

[Summon Illusion]

Straightfoward, I don't know and I shouldn't something like that take place in another thread?


Originally posted by Mwork
ANYWAY,

This is supposed to be "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights," not "Ferenan's Ninja vs. every other possible setup," so why are we arguing about this.......?

[Tdblitz]

Blade grasp? what about blade grasp? blade grasp will never pull off successfully, 100% of the time, neither will Counter, Nor Hamedo, Nor any ability that triggers when being hit or when you're at low Hp. They DO infact, FAIL.

Knights ARE infact good even WITH souped up abilities and fitted with another skill, But Ive done alot better without them (infact, Ive done worse using knights and math skill).

If I were pitted up against 5 on 5 , Knights with math skill ability? Id add equip Knight Sword, To 5 ninjas in my group
#1*Give them all excaliburs, 2 in each hand*, which will give them haste without even needing to cast. And then 1 casting of Lv3 Raise faith on whomever it hits. Then rest of the battle, casting Petrify , pretty much taking a gamble, at 50/50 as you cant guarantee when petrify will successfully cast. Yeah, I could be screwing myself over , or screwing the opposistion, we may never really know.......mwahhaha.


But hey, it just hit me. Lets go back to chapter 1, where all the fine luxuries of armor are non existant. Your Characters are still souped up in mastering all classes, but you dont have shit worth for weapons. Yeah, thats right, no excalibur or Choas blade in site. Hell , the summoner from the Magic city of Gariland just left for deep dungeon in search of the Zodiac stone.

The Chocobos in Random battles hit harder than you do, because knights would rely too heavily on the damage of their own weapon. You would do nothing more than 80 minimum, 365 on rare occasions.

Yeah, I thought to myself that my team of well armored warriors would do faboulous in Chapter 1, but when I got there, ALL THEY HAD WAS ARMOR WORTH SHIZ!.
So tell me, would your Knights, paired up with
Calc attacks Counter attacks Two swords and move +3 do as well in the last chapter as they would in the first?.

Just goes to show you, Your knights without your weapons and armor are useless. Id spend more time mastering all classes then obsessing about the Armor and accessories I have.

Seriously, if yer ever going to beat the game in less than 2 days, or 16 hours (WITHOUT A GAMESHARK*AHEM*) You cant rely on weapons as a crutch. All the weapons your Knights have are non-existant in Chapter 1, Chapter 2, and chapter 3, and their math skill alone wont save them
(trust me, I've done this before).

I CLAIM MYSELF KING AT BEATING FFT! IN LESS THAN 12 HOURS! (well, I never actually timed it, so sue me).








#1*(which is possible :P you CAN dupe *without codes* you know, OR you could spend yer time in deep dungeon gathering all these things :P)

[Tdblitz]

Originally posted by Summon Illusion
Straightfoward, I don't know and I shouldn't something like that take place in another thread?



It wasnt originally "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights,"

just "Jay's Knights vs whomever".

[Summon Illusion]

However "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights" DOES fit under the category of "Jay's Knights vs whomever". See? It fits (ferenan's ninja goes into whomever). So your point's kinda pointless. Which is pretty pathetic for a point.

[Tdblitz]

Hey, that wasnt my point, it was Mworks, and you suggested it



Originally posted by Mwork
ANYWAY,

This is supposed to be "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights," not "Ferenan's Ninja vs. every other possible setup," so why are we arguing about this.......?


Originally posted by Summon IllusionStraightfoward, I don't know and I shouldn't something like that take place in another thread?

[Ferenan]

My high faith ninjas would kill his knights, end of story. Knights aren't ultimate, end of thread. Im not saying my ninjas are invincible, no team is in FFT. Everything can be defeated. But we have proven that your knights are defeatable. and you cant keep modifying your team or its not the same team. Now..thats the end of the discussion. At least one of us has proven his knights defeatable, so what is left to debate? If your going to go off topic, start a new thread of "I think Holy Swordsman are the best" or something, k?

[Jay Ayanami]

There is no such thing as Equip Knight Sword (to my knowledge) and the Knights are still ultimate because they are better than any other team imaginable.

[Mwork]

Yeah, Equip Knight Sword does not exist.



No one has proven Jay's Knights are better than any other team imaginable, rather, it's been proven that they aren't the best team imaginable (by showing another party capable of beating the Knights).

[Summon Illusion]

Yes, and this is one of the very advantageous things about the knight class. They can equip all the legendary swords.

The drawback is that we can also raise up the point that they cannot wear cloths (ex. Secret cloths, power sleeve), as well as hats (THIEF HAT, flash hat, twist headband etc), and there's no 'equip cloths' or 'equip hat'. I'm suprised noone brought that up yet.

I think the ultimate team thing is really preference. For example, I would prefer the ninja team and I'd have so much more fun in the game with a CHEMIST ARCHER team (I'm serious, they're fun to use).

Oh, and TD, I'm talking about what you said, not what he said. You 2 said separate things if you can tell the difference.

[Jay Ayanami]

Even if the could not beat every team, it does not mean they are not better. They need only to be better against more teams than any other team to be the best.

Despite that inability, Summon, they can still have Haste, which is good, and they have high HP.

[Summon Illusion]

I personally find the speed cloths or certain robes are much more important than the knight armor, but ah, that's preferences.

Personally, I'd much rather have a thief hat on than a grand helmet on, or even secret cloths rather than maximillian for that matter. I find that speed is much more important, rather than some helmet that protects you from darkness. Again, preference. I consider Speed more important than HP.

But in such a case, I would not know if the ninjas are better. You have to admit, by this point they're both about pretty much even. Even if there was a difference, as far as I see it's too small the the point which it makes a difference.

Setiemon also gives haste, and the haste is made up by their much higher speed (don't forget equipment, you can have up to +5 with just the equipment). Also, generally ninjas can THROW chaos blades and excaliburs, and since as you said you can get many without cheating on that deep dungeon level horror, it would make sense that they have multiples of them. This accompanied with move+2 or 3 would be very effective, especially with a ninja.

I would go with the ninjas, but again, that's just my preference. I find it suprising that a generic can match NPCs. Don't you find it quite amazing yourself? I do.

[Yuffie is a B****]

When have I flamed?
And I notice you failed to adress my arguments. yes oh course hoylswords is the best but thats a special job.
Anway assian's with olyswordsmen skill would own all teams. WHy ? the only way to stopthere death attack (which has 100% accrucey) is N kai armle or ribbon. Balster punch and Icewolf bite would take care of that!

[Summon Illusion]

I'm supposing your point is that if Orlandu's actually being considered as a knight, then an assasin should be considered as a ninja? Makes sense to me, and besides, since it is technically saying they are the best class, then a knight party with orlandu can still be easily outmeasured, if npc's are considered.

I personally prefer it if it was just knight (generic) vs ninja (generic) though.

I'm suprised that there's even a chance that these ninjas have against a cheat NPC character, really. Rather impressive.

I don't mean this to be offending, but Yuffie, he's the one that has the blaster punch and icewolf bite, not the assasins.

However, unless they have ribbons yes, it's pretty much unavoidable. However, they can equip 2 samurai swords (2 hands&samurai sword equippable), so I don't think that would neccessarily make them un-invincible or anything - -;;

[Mwork]

Even if the could not beat every team, it does not mean they are not better. They need only to be better against more teams than any other team to be the best.

Well then, it's very obvious we won't be able to determine who's the best by your definition, seeing as how there are hundreds of different possible setups for a party......


Though, it does make sense that the better team will beat the other. And since the Ninja are VERY capable of killing the Knights, I would say they are the better of the two.

....Anyone else agree?



So, Jay's Knight have been proven fallible where Jay had said (I believe) they weren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, though...

[Summon Illusion]

That could be proven false by pretty much any party, but I'll have to favor the ninjas for this one. At least until, its shown otherwise.

[Mwork]

er........what can be proven false by pretty much any party?

[Summon Illusion]

Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible. Perhaps a majority party might agree, but as far as I can see...neither side has proven the other side wrong, however neither side has been proven RIGHT either so....

[Mwork]

'''''Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible.'''''

I'm.....a bit lost with that part....... O_o




'''''as far as I can see...neither side has proven the other side wrong, however neither side has been proven RIGHT either so....'''''


Alrighty then, let's see.

(And this is considering Jay keeps the same Knights he originally posted...)

The Ninja have their Faith at the maximum, 94. Their MA would be (an estimated amount of) 10 or so. Since Jay hasn't given a specific number for his Knights' Faith, we don't know for sure. But, considering the damage he says he does with Holy, I would say it's around 85.

Okay, so if the first Ninja calculates a Lv.3 Petrify, the calculation will target all of the Knights (they are all at Lv.99). I would choose Petrify, by the way, because it's a more accurate spell than Death.

The chance of the calculated spell to successfully hit is 95%, rounded down, since the Knights have practically no magic evasion.

With those numbers.......

P (X=0) = (5!/0!5!) * (.95^0) * (.5^5) = .003125

There's a 3% chance that the Ninja haven't yet won the battle.

But there's four other Ninja who can calculate the same spell on all of the Knights.

P (X=0) = (25!/0!25!) * (.95^0) * (.5^25) = .00000003

So, once every Ninja has calculated the spell, there will be a .000003% chance that there's at least one Knight left to fight.

With those VERY low chances of survival, I don't know how anyone could say the two teams are pretty much equal....








if anyone notes mistakes on the math, please let me know. I typed all this up in a big hurry. :)

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?

And Summon Illusion, there was again no insult. He simply made an ass of himself by continuously making arguments already said after I had informed him that he had done so. Ironically enough, we had just finished discussing the matter with another poster. I would challenge you to argue that he was somehow not making an ass of himself. An objective statement. Take it how you will.

So if I were to say you are a hypocrite and an asshole I would simply be making an objective statement? Or would I have to say that you are making an asshole of yourself? I would appreciate your expert opinion.

[Summon Illusion]

"Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible."

Sorry, that must've been confusing. Basically, I'm saying that since in my view all of this is an opinion, it's really impossible to dig out a 'truth' in it.

And um...notice how this thread's died - -;;

Well, I guess that means...ninjas, for now - -;;

[Jay Ayanami]

The flaw in all of your guys' arguments is that you have been specifically designing teams to beat my own, not teams which are all around good. My Knight team is the best for obvious reasons I have stated but you must also consider that they are good against most any squad regardless of specialization. The team you all have cited is simply good against people who have Faith. Common Samurai, Monks, or Lancers could take them down and with ease.

Your counter argument to that is that there are too many combinations to ever decide what is the best. However, if you are a smart person, you can probably take that number down by 99% because most of those combinations suck and are only there because they are, quite simply, a combination.

And about the Ninjas, like I said before, there are only a few changes one would need to make to defeat them. You have simply had the advantage of what I will call "pre-emptive strike".

And Ragnarok, I was, in fact, being objective. Read what I have said before. It is quite funny, you will see, because you exemplified the very behaviors that I was seeking to prevent before you came. I think that if you found yourself in my position, you would see the humor in that.

[Summon Illusion]

Oh, finally, you responded. However, as shown earlier, you edited your knights little by little in order to counter their strategies, so that's not specifically for one side either. Additionally, these ninjas aren't just good against you - they're very good in general. I tried it out myself recently (although at a much lower level), as well as the knights (again, much lower level).

I'm pretty sure it works just as wlel against samurais, monks and lancers. Don't forget, those classes don't specifically have low faith either. And it's not like the ninjas have a very high speed, throw (chaos blades), as well as 2 swords. Then there's the whole assasin thing..but that's beside the point.

Can you be a little more specific against the ninjas? You're not really being specific, so.

And again, they both work generally well. The knights would be beaten in such a case, and they'd both do just as well in random battles. I cannot see, at the current standpoint, why the ninjas wouldn't generally win. And besides, it's not a competition of whether the ninjas are ultimate, but rather whether the knights are ultimate. And this has just proven that they aren't, until proven otherwise. This whole thread is whether knights are ultimate, not whether if there are any other classes that are more ultimate (although one can argue assasin, and the ninjas so far are right up there if not past). Most of the people who were in the discussion said as well, that their point arguing otherwise is there is 'no ultimate team in FFT', so.

Anyways, I'd like to see what other people have to say about htis.

And for the comments, again, ass is an opinion why stupidity is not (although that as well, to some extent is opinionated). If I was one to declare it to be low to do such a thing, I believe most would have the integrety to follow it themselves. Of course, that's just from my standpoint here.

[Jay Ayanami]

Yes, Summon, I finally posted. Pardon me if I cannot be online at all hours of the day as you seem to be. I am already on it enough as it stands. And for all of your all's benefit, I will tell you that I will be on Spring Break this week and have planned a vacation with my friends. So, you will not see me in the next five days for sure.

Back to the matter at hand:

I simply said that in order to defend myself, I would only need to make minor changes to my team. The team you suggested is very specialized and is really no good against people who excel in physical abilities (like I cited, Monks, Samurai, etc.). They need no Faith and can attack long range for massive damage. Plus Lancers and Samurai have an armor advantage. So, perhaps you can kill one or two of them by throwing Chaos Blades (two throws to kill one unit, probably), assuming I do not dodge. That puts you in range of a Samurai attack or at the very least a one move followed by a Samurai attack. Given your less than desirable HP defecit ...

In case I did not specify, any of these units could have 3 Faith since we have made it clear earlier in the thread that 3 Faith is a valid attribute. Thus, it does not matter if the unit type would normally have high or low Faith.

The Knight team does well against most any foe and the teams that excel against them are ones who have specifically designed to bring them down. As we can all see, these teams would do horribly against enemies who excel in Physical attacks (such as the ones I specified earlier: Lancer, Samurai ...) and have low Faith. And let's not forget Orlandu who has been established for the sake of consistency in this thread (and this thread alone for all you people who are still griping) as a Knight.

And Summon, Dictionary.com defines "ass" as "A vain, self-important, silly, or aggressively stupid person." (definition 2.2). I think Ragnarok fits the latter of that definition. I know how you'd love for this to be a totally subjective world but let's be logical here. Relative to other matters, this is more objective than "puppies are nice". This is objective as it could possibly for you even if you reject the concept of objectivity. Trust me.

[Summon Illusion]

Oh, that. This is spring break, and I've been doing a lot of recording&practicing. Of course, every hour or so I get bored so I check my mail. Then I go out somewhere. This results in me checking my mail anywhere from 2-7 times this week. Also, a lot of people tend to post at the same time I do, so I get a reply in my mail right after I posted (by the time I'm finished junking out, BAM there's a reply). Of course, that's only for this week, and otherwise usually I check about 1-2 times average.

I suppose I failed to address that you work most of the day. Well, I practice most of the time. Plus, most electronica stuff or recroding tools have to be found online, and none of my friends are musicians so it's an easy resource, or a substitute for at leat this time.

Oh yeah, I set up huge downloads and those screw up every couple hours or so and sometimes I check mail while fixing the problems that's occuring in the current setup.

I want to hear other people talk on this one, so I'm just gonna skip it (sorry).

Yes, but most of ass is things that would be considered opinion, and I wouldn't say Ragnarok is specifically intelligent. If it was simple truth that he was unintelligent, more people would agree to it.

Things are the hardest to apply to one's self.

[Mwork]

The team you suggested is very specialized and is really no good against people who excel in physical abilities (like I cited, Monks, Samurai, etc.). They need no Faith and can attack long range for massive damage. Plus Lancers and Samurai have an armor advantage. So, perhaps you can kill one or two of them by throwing Chaos Blades (two throws to kill one unit, probably), assuming I do not dodge. That puts you in range of a Samurai attack or at the very least a one move followed by a Samurai attack. Given your less than desirable HP defecit ...

In case I did not specify, any of these units could have 3 Faith since we have made it clear earlier in the thread that 3 Faith is a valid attribute. Thus, it does not matter if the unit type would normally have high or low Faith.



Oh my........just think about it a while....

....just look at the Ninja party. They REALLY do work well against the types of opponents you say.

....why do you keep refusing to accept that??

The Ninja's high Faith will ensure all healing and support spells will work exceptionally well. The Ninja have excellent Speed, so they'll act more often than the opposition. They could all just spend the first round calculating Protect, Shell, Regen, Reraise, Pray Faith and such on each other. Then they can attack the next round. They hit hard due to their inherent Two Swords. Against units with Blade Grasp, the Ninja's first strick will be blocked, but the second cannot be blocked. And, with Concentrate, that second is guaranteed to ignore evasion and will, therefore, connect. The Ninja will be well protected from their support spells, plus the added support of Blade Grasp, so they'll manage pretty well against the enemies' attacks. Then one or two Ninja could just calculate a healing spell or a reviving one at the start of the next round.

I don't see how a team this good would not be good against low-faithed physical warriors.....






But anyway, from my point of view at least, the point of this thread was to prove that Jay's Knights could be beat. This would mean, to me, that they are not ultimate.

Now, this has been done several times already, so unless something else comes up, I see no reason for me to continue posting about it.....

[Jay Ayanami]

As if calculated spells are effective against people with 3 Haith. Anyhow, the Samurai can add Haste, Protect, Shell, and Regen. The Lancers can jump and the Monks can Revive and Earth Slash.

'nuff said.

[Mwork]

1.) I never even hinted the Ninja should calculate their spells on the enemy. As I said "healing and support spells will work exceptionally well." Why in the world would one ever THINK about casting healing/support spells on the ENEMY??????



2.) C'mon Jay, think about it. You'll realize the Ninja really aren't bad at all against other setups. Well.....about as good as your Knights, since the Jobs/abilities you just described can also devaste your Knights quite easily.......

[Jay Ayanami]

I never even hinted the Ninja should calculate their spells on the enemy. As I said "healing and support spells will work exceptionally well." Why in the world would one ever THINK about casting healing/support spells on the ENEMY??????

I assumed this was a hangover from the Level 3 Status Attack strategy. Use your head, why would I assert you would heal me.

C'mon Jay, think about it. You'll realize the Ninja really aren't bad at all against other setups. Well.....about as good as your Knights, since the Jobs/abilities you just described can also devaste your Knights quite easily.......

No, all you could suggest is the same opening move only with a different job set. But then again, some classes are slow, so it would not work. Even so, all I would have to do is change speed. They are average. Not bad, but they fail against many phyiscal teams with low Faith.

[Mwork]

Well, it's really kinda pointless to argue with you about this......
.
.
.
.
.

........I'm only typing up this post to say that you shouldn't expect anything more from me on this current topic..... -_-

[Jay Ayanami]

If you manage to do that, then you'll be the first, but at least you'll have my respect.

I just don't see how you can argue that a team that relies on Calculations moreso than physical attacks would win against low Faith. Although Ninjas are good phyiscally, then cannot match up against long range attacers who have good defense mechanisms and can attack for lethal damage long range.

[Mwork]

Neither one of us would ever be able to convince the other to change his opinion.......so I just thought I'd be better if we stop the discussion... :)


But, honestly, I kinda enjoyed the whole thing.

It was.......entertaining, to say the least..... :choc:

[Edgar]

Not job classes are the best, trust me.

Squire: Good for experience gain
Archer: Good and fexible unlike throw and gun shooting
Knights: Can equip knight swords
Chemist: Heal without charging
Monk: Ultra high pa and can attack long range and can heal.
Lancer: Good for attacking enemies that are VERY FAR
Geomaner: Good for torturing
Oracles: Good for adding all kinds of stats
Calculator: Good for ranged magic casting
Mime: Good for combos
Thief: Good for getting rare items
Samuri: Good for healing and attacking surrounding enemies
Ninja: Good for the hit and run stretegy
Priest: Good for healing
Wizard: Good for offence
Time Mage: Good for moving faster than others
Mediator: Good for all sorts of talking
Summoner: Good for all long radiues attacks
Dancer & Bard: Good for thier Reaction and Movement abilities respectively:choc:

[Blackmage]

Has anyone created a paper-and-dice version of the FFT battle system that acts just like the game? If so, why don't we use it to test the teams' capabilities? Or perhaps even create our own, assuming we could get all the mathematical crap behind the scenes to be known? This game could very well be played on a board with little Lego people and a basic computer program that could keep track of all the AT's, attack damage, etc. I dunno, just food for thought to prove who's the best once and for all. And then, we can go back to our regularly scheduled lives and do something with them other than flaming people and arguing without supportive evidence. *shrugs*

[Mwork]

I've seen plenty of supportive evidence, from BOTH sides of this argument.........don't see how you could've missed that.

[Summon Illusion]

For example, chemists are required since it's too risky for a charge meter to turn to zero (not very high faith for some time in the game). Mediator skills, are not for battle, but making people's faiths extremely high or low. So someone could say the mediators are just as important. Their purpose isn't direct battle. Thiefs are extremely useful as well, together with other classes.

...So pretty much, what class ISN'T good?

[T.G. Cid]

If only Square would make a sequal that had a Vs. mode
so that we could test these ideas. I have a pretty good couple of teams. :mad2: :mad2:

[Summon Illusion]

Such as?

[The Amazing Spiderman]

They told there was one game of that. it's name was ehrgeiz, i think.
They told me that cloud, tifa, sephiroth, yuffie and vincent from FF7, and some others like yoyo yoko.It's a rpg too.

[Edgar]

I really wish that there's a game of vs. made from FF1-10

[Nakor TheBlue Rider]

In ergiez you can only use cloud, sephroth, tifa, yuffie, vincient, and Zack(clouds alter ego person thingy) to play in the fighting game. Its like an arcade fighting game like mortal combat or steet fighter. however you can use 2 of the other characters in the rpg mode but you can not vs each other it is a 1 player in rpg mode. the fighting mode is like any other fighting game.

just thought id clear this up cause i have this game.

Hey if you want a game that Has vs mode get Tactics Ogre. Its great i love that game just for that reason.

[Summon Illusion]

How expensive is ergiez, and where can you get it?

[Nakor TheBlue Rider]

I got it burnt for $5 but ive seen it in zellers or the local vidio store for like $40-$60

but i recomend getting it burn or at least renting it before you buy it because it really is not that great of a game. The rpg mode is not real rpg its an action but the character lvls.

[The Amazing Spiderman]

Originally posted by Nakor TheBlue Rider
I got it burnt for $5 but ive seen it in zellers or the local vidio store for like $40-$60

but i recomend getting it burn or at least renting it before you buy it because it really is not that great of a game. The rpg mode is not real rpg its an action but the character lvls.

I've actually think like you in that. it isn't a great game. The fighting mode i think would be better.

[Notti]

Maybe on the GameBoy Advance version of FFT coming out later this year.

I attached an old Knights versus Math Wizards tactics post which may be of interest to this thread.

[Remus Lupin]

Knight's weapon attack is strongest,with Excalibur,Ragnarok or something like that,but when I didn't put nothing on weapon's place,and he attacked with hand,his attack does 789 HP!
Knight is very useful,but best job would be Holy Swordsman.
IF you asks best regular job,that would be Time mage,cause he
has all kinds of magics:time changing (stop,haste...),attack (meteor),special damage (demi),and moving (teleport,float).

[mog42]

Unfortunately, Meteor is so horrendously slow that it forces you to target units instead of panel. The enemy you target with meteor will always get a turn before the spell resolves, and the computer isn't stupid. It will make the enemy you target with meteor go next to as many of your units as possible so that you end up hurting youself more with meteor than you hurt the enemy. Even with short charge, meteor is still slow enough that it won't resolve before the enemy gets a turn. In addition to that, it's MP efficiency is lower than most other spells. Those negatives aside, meteor works quite well when you don't move an enemy so it can't escape. It's also very visually impressive.

Meteor is especially useless in the beginning of the game when time mages won't even have the 70 MP required to cast it. Demi spells are also useless in the beginning because they have low hit% before you augment the faith points of the time mage. They will also do less damage than black magic spells while consuming much more MP. This severely limits the offensive capabilities of a time mage at the start of the game. Fortunately, the game allows you to make up for this by adding skills from other classes. Giving a time mage Black Magic is always a good idea because it allows you to inflict damage when you don't need any time spells.

[Lamia]

Samurai is...THE BEST CLASS.

1) Blade Grasp.

2) Required to get Ninja who has...... TWO SWORDS (double-damage..whaha!)

3) Versatile.


Note: I like dancers alot, they can hit...well it depends

If they hit 10 HP: They willl hit 30 each round to all foes.

If they hit 15 HP: They will hit 45 HP off each round.

If they hit 20 hp: They will hit off 60 HP each round.

Dancers dance about 3 times each round! I've never improved a dancer enough to hit over 20, I don't know if that's possible.

[mog42]

Samurai isn't required to get Ninja. For that matter, it isn't required to get any other job classes. The prerequisites for Ninja are Archer level 3, Thief level 4, and Geomancer level 2.

[Lamia]

Oops. For some reason I was thinking that cause when one of my chara was a samurai the ninja option opened up.
It was one of the earlier classes that leveled up on it's own..I knew that ...ohwell.

[Edgar]

Samuris are in the category of the final 'Combination Class', so are ninjas. That why there no need to get a lvl 8 Samuri to get a ninja because they are in the same category.

[Notti]

One little interesting bit on opening jobs...

It is impossible to open Mime with out also opening Bard or Dancer.

:eep: Just sharin'.

[Nakor TheBlue Rider]

Its also impossible to open it without over lvling.....unless you use one of those un-level tricks....

[shadows of betrayal]

No, please don't post a comment on this thread. I just wanted to bring up this ancient history because it is very very interesting. That and I was thinking that it is the longest thread that i have ever seen. And there was the little fact that i haven't finished reading it yet and am too lazy to try to find it all the time.
Happy reading.

Once again I am emploring you, please don't *revive* Cough, cough:rolleyes2 this thread. :angel: May this thread rest in peace.

[TheChosen1]

why doesnèt anyone ever mention Ragnorak or that sword u get just before u face the last boss? I found it very usefull.......

[chozobo]

I don't know if anyone said this or not (sorry if I didn't read through all 12 pages. I only read through three), but on the knights versus wizards, couldn't they break the chantage? also,assuming that the opposing team was not level 99, couldn't a calculated slow attack potentially screw some of the knights up without effecting the casting team? You probably know, but, after slow, you can't haste an auto-hasted knight, the computer views it as hasted already. I'm no master strategist, so I don't know if any sort of action would negate.

[gotenks_2322]

yall just couldnt bother to let this thread die could ya?

[Esjay]

First off, I'd like to say that it's a shame that a thread with such potential was ruined by idiots. I cannot be bothered to count the number of people who came into this thread and made a ridiculous post without bothering to read at all.

Second, I apologize for bumping a thread that is nearly 9 years old.

Now, let me say that this thread (despite all the BS) is great. Jay, if you're still around, which I doubt, congrats. I have read this thread many, many times in my life and I still believe you're right. I'm actually constructing the same exact team as we speak.

I just wanted to comment on this. It's one of the most informative and interesting topics I've ever had the pleasure to read, minus the 13 year olds acting like morons.

[VeloZer0]

dam, wish I was around when this was going on. I spent the last half hour thinking up builds that could beat this party.

Maybe I'll start up a new PvP thread :)

[Jay Ayanami]

Someone found this thread recently and my screen name on it as well, reminding me of its existence. I had totally forgotten about this. For the record, 9 years later, Knights are STILL the best basic class in FFT, and specialty Knight classes are still the overall best classes in FFT.

As I think about it, they don't even need two swords to be the best, either!

[Flying Mullet]

This thread was sleeping peacefully for six years, so let's let it sleep.

If anyone wants to start or continue this discussion, feel free to start a new thread.