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Jay Ayanami
04-03-2001, 04:40 AM
Well, they are the best in conjuction with other classes.

Does anyone *dare* disagree?

thornwithin
04-03-2001, 07:36 AM
I dare to disagree. Samurai can use almost as much armor, can deal almost as much damage per sword, and have a waaaay cooler special ability. Draw Out is incredibly versatile once you get all the swords--you can heal, cast protect/shell, damage in a radius, or damage from afar in a straight line. Compare this to the Knight abilities...breaking stuff. For one thing, those abilities are useless vs. monsters, and for another why not just use Meliadoul or T.G.Cid's sword skills to break _and_ deal damage in one action, from a range.

the only possible way Knights could be the best class is in the support abilities you can learn, but that doesn't really make a best class...just a class you _temporarily_ equip to augment your cool job.

Mwork
04-03-2001, 07:24 PM
Yep. Thornwithin's right.

A Samurai is pretty similar to the Knight, but he can also do much more (heal, attack from a distance Haste, Regen, Protect, and Shell himself and his party members).

Also, a Lancer is a beefed-up version of a Knight. He has greater range and is the Knight's equal in equips

Mindflare
04-03-2001, 08:43 PM
I like knights, but Samauri are better. I think the Ninjas are good, but the HP and lack of powerful weapons is sad.

Jay Ayanami
04-03-2001, 10:44 PM
Okay...I guess I will give away my secret. And you will agree...Knights are the best (incidentally, I was talking about the regular job classes, not things like Holy Knight or anything).

Oh, and by the way, I am very cocky when it comes to FFT. I love the game and probably put more time in it than most people do.

MY TEAM:
excluding special job classes

5 knights, equipped with...

Secondary skill set: Calculator Skills.
Reaction skill set: Counter Attack.
Support skill set: Two swords.
Movement skill set: Move + 3

and...

Right hand: Excalibur.
Left hand: Chaos Blade.
Head: Grand Helmet.
Body: Maximillian.
Acessory: Germinias Boots, Speed Shoes, Magic Glove, or Genji Glove.

Now do you see what I am getting at?

This team cannot die.

All you have to do is cast "Level Three Holy" over and over again. All my people will be hit by the spell because they are all on level 99. The Excalibur absorbs Holy, so it will heal you while doing damage to your enemy.

Other things to consider:

> They have high HP, given their equipment, which adds 350 HP alone. They also do not have to waste ability slots because they inherently equip high level armor and swords.
> Regardless of how many MP they have, "Level Three Holy" can be cast infinitely because it requires no MP.
> The Excalibur adds haste, so they are a fast unit. Also, they can still use Calculator abilities without the speed defecit.
> They magic deals a fair amount of damage if you trained them as magic users. The Magic Glove and Genji Glove also raise Magic Attack Power.
> As if that were not enough, in a case where they cannot rely on magic, they can still attack for two hits, one from an Excalibur, the other from a Chaos Blade. That alone is enough to cripple most units.

So, as you can see, nothing really poses a threat to them, except for perhaps Ninjas with 20+ speed. Even, then, it is not a problem with the heal/attack properties of "Level Three Holy" when I fight 15 Ninjas at Araguay Woods.

BWAHAHA!

Oh yeah, and don't you go taking credit for my strategy.

^_-

I forgot to mention that if anyone hits your unit without killing it, then the unit will counter attack for a huge amount of damage (one hit from Excalibur, one hit from Chaos Blade).

(If you have anything to add to a post, please use the "Edit/Delete" button on the bottom of each of your posts. Thank you and drive safely. --BOU)

Mwork
04-03-2001, 11:08 PM
Firstly, you cannot, I repeat cannot, I repeat cannot have more than Maximillian or Grand Helmet. It's impossible. But that doesn't make much of a difference, anyway.

Also, despite the Magic Gauntlets, Knight's just aren't that good with magic. Holy would cause low damage.

You could just equip Chameleon Robes, too. They also absorb holy attacks. Even a team of Priests can render your already weak magic completely obsolete. :)

But, if your current job cannot equip robes, just use a party of characters with a Faith of 3. Bye-bye Holy! :)


A team of 3-Faith, Sentiemson and Abandon equipped Lancers would totally slaughter those poor Knights.

Big Ogre Umaro
04-04-2001, 12:13 AM
I don't have any fun when my characters are too powerful. *shrug*

Jay Ayanami
04-04-2001, 12:29 AM
You cannot have more than one Maximillian or Grand Helmet. True. I simply stated the best member of the team. The rest of the team, I assumed you knew, would have different items. Obviously, they cannot all have Genji Gauntlets either.

Next, Knights cause enough damage with the Holy spells. Mine usually do 200+ HP worth of damage. The people are exactly the same, so 5 turns come up in a row. 5 x 200 = 1000 HP worth of damage, more HP than any PC can have. At the very least, my people do 100 - 150 HP of damage. That comes to 500 - 750 HP of damage, which is a fair amount of damage. If each character gets another turn in, that is lethal damage, as long as they did not heal. Remember, all the while, this is healing themselves.

Next, Chameleon Robes suck because they offer little HP protection, and more importantly, do not add haste. A team of preists would not stand a chance because they have too low HP and I would get my turn first Unless they were incredibly fast, my auto haste would over come them. If they tried to use Holy, they would not hurt me, and if they used Flare, it would hurt themselves even as it hurt me. With 350+ more HP, and all. I could just use "Level Three Flare" and take the damage incurred. While it would be lethal to them, I would survive, having higher HP levels.

Next, if you use a party with Faith 3, my team would still win. If I needed to cure, I would used "Level Three Holy". When I need to attack, I simply use a physical attack. Excalibur, Chaos Blade, smack. If they were hand to hand fighters, they would have to deal with a Excalibur/Chaos Blade counter attack. If they attacked from long range, one knight could stay behind and heal while the others forge onward with physical attacks. If any one happened to die, it would be a simple matter of "Level 3 Raise", followed by a "Level Three Holy". I would not have to worry about enemies ressurecting because their faith is 3.

This team is ultimate, no matter how you cut it. I have thought about it many times.

Jay Ayanami
04-04-2001, 12:40 AM
I agree. This is just my ultimate team. It is more fun to experiment with weaker characters and various job classes.

Mindflare
04-04-2001, 12:55 AM
There aren't enough of those good items in the game to have all of your characters really great, like you say...

Low faith archers or Chemists would be a challenge, because they could stay far away, and the magic wouldn't have much effect.

The least powerful person would be stuck with 2 Rune blades and some lame armor. He would be really lame.

They would be suseptible to attack, because they don't have shields.

Although after Holy, there's always flare...

That party isn't as invincible as you think.

Jay Ayanami
04-04-2001, 02:05 AM
There are enough good items, actually.

If you go to the second to last level of the Deep Dungeon with the ability "catch" equipped, you can get Chaos Blades and Excaliburs from the Ninjas who throw high level swords.

Chemists could do nothing. They can at best attack with guns or magic as a seoncdary ability, and all the time, my Knights could be healing easily with "Level Three Holy". Calculations have no range, anyway. Archers have even less aptitude for magic than Chemists, so all the could do it attack with a bow. They would only be able to target one person at a time, and all the while the knights could work their way up to him to slash him with two swords. And one could out of range for healing.

The least powerful person would still have a Chaos Blade and an Excalibur, but only have Crystal Mail and Crystal Helmet, for a total + 230. However, that is still impressive.

Actually, my team IS invincible...

Mwork
04-04-2001, 07:26 PM
I never said the Priests could kill the Knights, I just said they'd render your magic obsolete.

Still......those Lancers would kick the crap out of your Knights. For all eternity, it seems, seeing as how those Knights would spend their time reviving their dead partners.

Lesse, you couldn't damage with magic at all. The two teams are at about the same speed, the Knights have no defenses your Counter Attack will be useless, and it's extremely difficult to hit them physically. There's a very low chance of you actually causing any damage to my Lancers.


Also, those Knights are not so powerful just cuz they're Knights. They're powerful cuz of the abilities they use from other jobs. Meaning, Knights are in fact not the best job.

Jay Ayanami
04-05-2001, 05:25 AM
I said that Knights are the best..."in conjunction with other job classes".

Anyhow, the Lancers would not have haste, so they would be slower despite a marginally higher speed level. It only takes one Knight to revive all the other Knights, so reviving would not be a problem. At any rate, I can still rely on other spells, targeting your Lancers by other factors than 3 (or other types, like height). Aside from that, all I would have to do to raise my evade would be to equip a shield instead of the Chaos Blade. Plus, I would have access to the AT list, where you would not. I don't care much for trying to figure out when a Lancer attack will land in my head. It is much easier just to have the AT list.

thornwithin
04-05-2001, 07:18 AM
ok what I'm getting out of this is that the reason your party is so awesome is (1) all your Knights can equip Excalibur and (2) They all have Calculator ability. Now, any class can use Calculator so to sum it up you are saying that Knights are the best because they can equip an awesome weapon. I don't think the skill Equip Sword allows you to equip Knight-Swords (which excalibur is) so technically you are right. But even with all this, you haven't proven that Knights are the best class, as you claim, since NONE of the abilities you've used (calculate, Catch, Two Swords, Counter Attack, Move +3) are knight abilities. All you've proven is that Excalibur is the best weapon in the game, which we all already knew. So you haven't really proven anything. :P

Jay Ayanami
04-05-2001, 01:51 PM
I said they were the best in conjunction with other classes. It is the ability of every class but Mime to equip secondary skills, including the Knight. Therefore, saying that if take away that ability, it sucks is invalid, because that would require you to do it to every class. What makes the Knight so goods is that along with this ability, they can equip Knight Swords, good armor, good helmets, etc. It is this combination that makes Knights so good.

Mwork
04-05-2001, 07:26 PM
1.)Yes, my Lancers would in fact have haste.

2.) Also, higher natural HP and PA. So, my Lancers outclass you in both HP and attacking power. That's not a whole lot, but hey, it's something.

3.) Without Chaos Blade you lose the ability to cause a whole crap load of damage as well as your permanent Regen

4.) Also, no matter what parameters you use to calculate your spells, it won't do you any good. I have 3 Faith, remember.

5.) And still, even with the best shield in the world, I still have a 25% chance of hitting you from the front and sides, and 100% from behind. Now, your team won't be able to keep their backs to the wall cuz of their short ranged attacks, so there's usually an opportunity to hit you with a 100% success rate.

6.) (not completely positive 'bout this one) I believe Jump ignores a shield's defenses. So the Lancers would have a 100% chance of hitting you.
A female Lancer leveled up as a Lancer the whole way through would have a PA of 16. Your Knights (leveled up as a magic user, like you said) would have a natural HP of 306, 656 for the lucky one with Grand Helmet and Maximillian and less HP for the rest, who have lower-level equips. Now, one of my Lancers can use Jump and dish out 870 HP worth of damage in most cirmustances. That's more than enough to kill any one of your Knights. But, if Zodiac affinities aren't good, I'd be doing 652 with a bad affinity and 435 with a worst affinity. That's still pretty good, though.
It's pretty easy to time Jumps, actually. The time it takes for the Lancer to land is that character's CT / 2. So, s/he'll land in the time it takes his/her CT to reach 50. All you have to do (against enemies with the same speed as you) is Jump on them only if their CT is below 50. So, the two parties have the same speed. I might take my turn first. So I wouldn't be able to Jump cuz the Knight's CT would have filled up at the same rate as mine. The Knights would move right after I jump into the sky, so it wouldn't work. That means, I would have to is either Attack air and Wait or just Wait. You see, when you use Act and Move in a turn, your CT returns to 0 at the end. If you use only one, it'll reset to 20, 40 if you wait without doing anything. Now, all I would have to do is keep doing that until my Lancers' CT would be able to reach 100 before the Knight's would reach 50. Then I could Jump with each one of them and kill your whole party.

and finally 7.) you just can't damage me! :)

Even after changing your team like you did, they still can't beat the Lancers.




Okay, so you say it's the combination of abilities that make the class so good. Well...to tell you the truth, even the weak jobs can practically become Gods with Math Skill equipped. It is supremely cheap.

Mwork
04-05-2001, 11:28 PM
I was just reading this topic over when I noticed something that thornwithin said. Something about the Knight's Break Skills being useless on monsters.


Well, when there's nothing to break, you can, for some reason, use a Break Skill to cause damage. It's nothing special, though. You cause the same damage you would with the Attack command. I've seen it work with humans, not sure 'bout monsters.

psxboy500
04-06-2001, 01:04 AM
with the gameshark I use that class on some of my characters and no one can't disagree wtih that statement.

Jay Ayanami
04-06-2001, 04:34 AM
You Lancers have haste? Then you are using up a slot for an accessory. I can enhance my attack power while you cannot. Your attack power might not be higher than my own. Next, true, I would lose attack power, but I would still have the Excalibur, which is a powerul weapon in itself. Auto-Regen is pointless...so it is no loss to me.

As for spells, yes, I would still need them to heal with.

To keep you from attacking behind me, I can place my people strategically. Then you would have to rely on jumping, which can be a bit iffy.

As for your citing damage amounts, you are not taking into account the amount of damage dealt and position. First of all, to jump on me, I would have to be in your range. I might be able to attack you before you come in range. Secondly, if I was close enough, the jumped damage would be less.

Timing jumps is a bitch though because you have to wait the right number of times until your turn comes up in such a way that my CT is below 50. The point that I was trying to make is that, and also my CT would proably be a bit above 50. Your characters are not much faster. Even, then I have ressurect abilities.

First, you would have to time your people in such a way that their jumps would land correctly. And I would not let you do that so easily. Secondly, your people are only a bit faster than mine (unless I enhance my speed with speed shoes or something). The AT list would not begin so that my CT was less than fifty when your turn came up.

I only changed my team because you did. You tailored your team to beat my own. You changed the units to females so they would have higher affinity to my own, and also picked a team that would be able to exploit my weaknesses. Take away the shields, I don't care. It really does not matter.

Even then, I doubt I would lose, because it would be a tactical nightmare for you to entrap me and avoid attack. My people can move farther than yours can, first of all, supposing they have Germinias Boots (or sometimes teleport, but I opt for move+3 for stability). I could compromise HP for battle position and AT position, that is, die (or not) during an attack to be ressurrected is a more favorable position.

One way to be cheap is to have one guy hang back and ressurrect the dead units, which go closer and closer to you. You cannot ressurrect multiple comrades whereas I can raise four at a time.

Jay Ayanami
04-06-2001, 04:36 AM
Lots of job classes such with Math subskills.

Calculators themselves have horrible speed, any unit with no magic skills sucks, Chemists suck with Math because it makes their main skills obsolete, etc.

obac
04-06-2001, 04:51 AM
well, the best party i've ever used for final fantasy tactics was fomed completely of MONKS. heheh, thats right, MONKS. at level 50, my guys all had a movement range of 8, had two swords ability (two punches, actually) and would each do around 500 damage per punch. and this, of course, was before i found the magical world of genetic engineering. nowadays, my favorite party would have to be:
ramza (brave 97, faith 3), orlandu(brave 97, faith 3), beowulf(brave 97, faith 94), mustadio(brave 97, faith 94), reis(brave 97, faith 94). you just get all of these characters the good ol blade grasp ability, making them impossible to hit (well, 3% chance to hit....) ramza, orlandu and beowulf with two swords.
ramza and orlandu:rhand chaos blade lhand excalibur
beowulf: rhand chaos blade lhand ragnarok (shell is good for high-faithed war machines.)
well, with this combination, at level 99, you get this in the secont to last and last battle:
step 1- orlandu runs up to cast lighting stab. both ultima demons behind altima are dead, and altima gets 999 damage.
step 2-ramza runs up there and smacks altima 999+500
altima dies
altima revives
step 3- beowulf runs up there, 999+600 damage
skip through mustadio and reis (altima doesnt do anything yet.)
step 4- even before altima attacks once, orlandu smacks altima. altima dies. no resistance.

Jay Ayanami
04-06-2001, 09:47 PM
Honestly, I used to be a big advocate of the Monk with two swords, but then I realized that the Knight combination was better because you get Haste, can heal and damage multiple characters simultaneously without MP consumption. My units can attack any panel on the board, so as long as I stay out of range with at least one character, I am safe. Your team relies on brute force and a swift kill. But, because I have Haste and the ability to attack at long range, I would probably win. The only person on your team with low faith is Ramza, and I could then attack with two swords and kill him easily.

Thunder God Cid
04-06-2001, 10:22 PM
hmmm if i fought 5 knights like that and i was 99... orlandu (as a holy knight) and ramza (monk) agrias (monk or holy knight) mustadio (chem) and beowulf wouls still own u.....

orlandu would have haste and could drain tons of hp... at level 80 he drians 600-800 hp

ramza as a monk would have 2 swords and kill you guys in and instant cuz if you get close ill teleport to u and hit you in da back for 600+ 2 times

agrias i would have as a monk and hit you twice, a holy knight would stay away and hit you for 500+ with holf explotion, or a dancer ( she has a dance that does 600hp to all or i could stop your turn or drain you magic so u cant heal or reserect! you barley have any magic! you dont have items on you have math!)

musty would shoot u in you arm then u cant do anything!

beowulf would dont act you with musty. when everyone is dont acted ur gonna be a chicken! musty will keep dont act you!

i would OWN u if i was 99!

nobody stands a chance... monks are way better than knights... knights are not the best you just put tons of crap on them. monks are faster, hit harder, harder to hit, more movement range and they have awsome skills! what is a knight gonns do! break my weapon! hah

Mwork
04-06-2001, 10:27 PM
"First of all, to jump on me, I would have to be in your range. I might be able to attack you before you come in
range."

How the hell is that gonna happen?!?!? I have an attacking range of eight, yours is only one.




"Secondly, if I was close enough, the jumped damage would be less."

.............Eh? How exactly does that work?


"Timing jumps is a bitch though because you have to wait the right number of times until your turn comes up in such a way that my CT is below 50. The point that I was trying to make is that, and also my CT would proably be a bit above 50. Your characters are not much faster."

Well, by not acting and just waiting, I can make my CT fill up before yours. Say, for example, at the end of the first round, me waiting and you moving close to me (physically is your only hope of killing me), the Lancers would have a CT of 40, 20 for the Knights. After the second round, you'd still probably not reach me, so it's Lancers at 100 while Knights at 80. I'd wait, refilling my CT to 40 of the next turn while yours is at 80 of the current turn, you'd move and wait. So, by the end of your turn, I'd have a CT of maybe 60 or so, you'd have 20. So, gradually, I'd be getting an extra turn. At that time, I would Jump on each Knight, killing them all.



"I only changed my team because you did. You tailored your team to beat my own. You changed the units to females so they would have higher affinity to my own, and also picked a team that would be able to exploit my weaknesses."

I did no such thing. I never even posted my party.
Your original team would have lost against my original team. This proves you wrong. Your party isn't invincible.


"As for your citing damage amounts, you are not taking into account the amount of damage dealt and position."

How can I not take into account the amount damage dealt if I'm showing you all how much damage I can deal???

The Golden Chocobo
04-21-2001, 09:48 PM
I agree with Mwork and the great use of Lancers. I like the Jump ability, I gives you time to dodge magic spells still being charged and does extensive damage if direct hit. Also spears and a greatamount of armor really beefs em' up. If only you could use doblue sword on them though... sux that spears are two handed weapons in this game.

Mwork
05-11-2001, 09:51 PM
Ok, so I've been informed by a friend (real smart guy) about this Jump thing. Apparently, for same-speeded units, a Lancer's Jump would hit even if the target's CT is above 50. The highest CT you could have for the Lancer to land the Jump would be 82. That makes it even easier to win.


"I only changed my team because you did. You tailored your team to beat my own. You changed the units to females so they would have higher affinity to my own, and also picked a team that would be able to exploit my weaknesses."

I get what you're saying now. I did in fact change my normal party into those female Lancers to make it easier to win, but only to show you that there's no such thing as an invincible party. For every powerful setup there's at the very least another out there that can beat it. Usually there's plenty. Like here with the Knights. A team of Samurai or Ninja have pretty good chances of beating them, Dancers for sure would never ever get killed, Wizards would demolish them, and any magically strong Job for that matter.




And about that Math-Skill-turning-units-into-Gods thing, it actually is true.

Just answer me this question:

Would you rather a) Have a party of normal Chemists in a battle or b) Have that party of Chemists with Math Skill as a secondary?

Math Skill makes a unit's usefullness augment greatly. Compared to the normal Chemists, the MathSkillin' Chems ARE Gods.

Lans Tartare
05-19-2001, 04:32 AM
Something wrong with using Knights-Even with all the equip that they can use to raise MA (2 rune swords, wizard robe, magic gauntlet), their MA still fall short of the magician classes. Therefore your magic will be quite ineffective against enemies, and for healing. At most it will heal about 250. 400 at tops. The enemies can easily do up to that damage. By the way, I noticed that you sacrificed a lot of evasion, meaning that you will be hit all the time.

Knights are not the best class. Wizards are. Of course, their abilities alone are useless. You will need to use abilities from other jobs, but it definitely makes a better party than knights, even with normal equipments.
This party is as close to invincible as you can get.

2 female wizards:
97 Brave, 84 Faith

Math Skill
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

3 female wizards:
97 Brave, 3 Faith

Draw Out
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

Wizard Rod
N/A
Ribbon
Chameleon Robe
Chantage

You see, each time they get hit, they take MP damage. As long as they have 1 MP left, HP will not be decreased, no matter how much damage is done. It doesn't work the other way, so there is no worry about taking HP damage from MP draining skills.
If one happens to die, Chantage will raise her right back into battle. It is impossible to break or steal. They will not be affected by any abnormal status effects, except Innocent and Oil, which can be removed by calculating Esuna. It'll be almost impossible to impose a status effect, without using Draw Outs, on the Wizards with little faith.
Though they do not start with it, you can quickly haste this party using a Draw Out or Math Skills.
Finally, we are down to attacking.
Against high faith enemies: duh. Calculate any ol' spell that they can't absorb. Probably flare, since nothing can absorb non-elemental spells. Since the wizards have MP switch, you don't have to worry about dying from your own spell. Flare should do about 600.
Against low faith enemies: Draw Out. Draw Out damage is based on MA, not PA. Thus, wizards will do the most damage with it. You can quickly decimate the enemy rank around you, or far away with the Kikuijimoji. It neglects faith, so it's impossible to dodge, and its damage can only be decreased with Zodiac signs. Chirajiraden will do about 600 damage, and Kikuijimoji about 500, at level 99.

Lets try pitting this party against yours, Jay.
You say your knight can do 1000+ damage with math. We'll go with that.
1000+ damage-MP of the wizards leaves about... 700. That's 700 HP damage to the wizards with Math. That should be enough to kill them. About 1 second after your knights go, though, they'll be right back up. Now we come to the wizards with Draw Out. they'll take no more than 100 damage due to Faith. Now, 3 wizards with Draw Out will do... around 1800+ damage with Chirajiraden. Assume they can't get that near, they'll do 1500+ with Kikuijimoji. That should kill 1 knight and heavily hurt another if they can't catch the knights in rows. In reality, probably kill 2 or 3.
Now we get to the wizards with Math. Just tell them to walk, and MP goes back up. When wizard 1 calculates, and you say all your people are L99, they will all be hit by Flare. Of course, so will the wizards, but they have MP switch, so it does nothing but MP damage. That should take off 500+ from everybody. After that, the other wizard walks and calculates, destroying all the knights.

You probably should have realized by now that the ultimate party isn't with Knights. In fact, they are easily killed.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 07:03 AM
A party of Two Sworded, Magic Defense Upped, Chaos Bladed, Excalibured, Damage Splitting Knights with Draw Out would fare quite well against those Wizards.



But anyway, on to my analysis of Lans Tartare's Wizards

Lemme say this before I start, that's a VERY good party! Just a couple of small things that might cost you the battle.

If the Knights were equipped with Two Rune Blades, a Wizard Robe, and a Magic Gauntlet, their magic abilities would be quite good. Much better than before. Holy would damage the Wizards (the high-faithed ones) by 671 HP with neutral zodiac affinities. That's quite good. The 3 Faith Wizards would get a worthless 24HP taken from them. Plus, the Knights would be healing for 751HP, even higher than the damage they can inflict.

If in case one of your Wizards did get Innocented, then there's no way in hell you'd be able to Esuna if off. They've got ZERO faith for the time that Innocent is on them, remember? This means absolutely no magic spell will have any affect on them.

That Reraise won't take effect as quickly as you said either. If I'm not mistaken, Wizards aren't that fast of a Job. And Reraise activates in the time it takes for the Wizards' CT to get from 0 to 100. That's a much bigger waiting period than you would expect.

And with Magic Defense Up, a Chirijiraden that would normally hit for 600HP (with neutral affinity) would now hit for 450HP. a Kikuichimoji that would hit for 320HP would now cause a small 240HP, and a Flare that would damage for 726HP would be doing 545HP worth of damage.



Here's how a fight between Jay's Knights and Lans Tartare's Wizards would take place:

The strategy here would be to kill the Draw Outers first. That way, it'll be more difficult for the Chantaged ones to revive when they get killed. So, maybe like three of the Knights would stay behind and calculate like madmen while the other two (equipped with Bracers) went forward to attack the low faithers. The high faithed Wizards would get their MP destroyed by the first Knight, then get killed by the next two, revived, then killed, revived, then killed because the Knights have permanent Haste and would get their turns in before them. Or, if parameters allow, since the Knights go first, and the two groups have relatively high faith, the Knights could just calculate Break on those two (three?) high faithed Wizards. And if that somehow can't be achieved, the the three Knights just have to cast Doubt Faith as much as possible on everyone excluding themselves. Then the high faith Wizards would be screwed for the rest of the battle. All the while, the two Two Sworded Knights would be getting their HP completely restored three times each round and they also have permanent Regen and would therefore be able to hit the Draw Outers without any fear of dying. The Excalibur would hit, depleting the Wizard's MP, then the superpowerful Chaos Blade would hit the MP-less Wizards, more than likely causing death.


So, in actuality, those Wizards have pretty big chances of losing.

And those are my two cents.


As a side note, I personally love Draw Out much more than Math Skill for that same reason you stated. It isn't affected by low faith and ignores all evasion percentages.

But....you think Chantages are normal equips???
And the Chameleon Robes on the Wizards seem a bit useless. Granted, it would help for the high faith Wizards, but the Knights could just do like the Wizards and use Flare or any other attacking spell. And the C.Robes would do the 3 Faith mages practically no good at all. They would only be recovering 24HP, which wouldn't help them the least bit.











All this talk about which Job is the best got me thinking. Which class truly is the best? You know, using only abilities from that one class. That would render more accurate results as to which Job is best, I believe.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 07:32 AM
Oh I see the whole board is back. Yay!

Anyhow...back to the matter at hand. <ahem>

T.G. Cid:

Orlandu and them are damaging, yes, but you are going on the assuption that you would be able to hit me. Remember, your Orlandu would be no faster than mine unless you equipped him with something to increase his speed. You cannot say any of your hits would contact me necessarily, unless you would explain your high speed. Your Orlandu has Haste, but do does mine. My Orlandu is every bit as good as yours, so conventional attacks are no good, me being able to do the exact same thing to you.

I don't know if teleport is faith reliant, but it does not always work. Even if you did hit me in the back, I could just do Level3Raise2 and I am back in the game. As I said before, I used to think that Monks with Two Swords was good too, but it is just not as good as my Knights. They just are not effective against a team of enemies.

Agrias as a Monk would first have to get to me before she could hit me. The other Holy Knight would have to be Orlandu, and you are forgetting that calculated attacks can target most any enemy. There is a set range for attacks like Holy Explosion. As for your Dancer, I have never seen one that attacks every character for 600 hit points. Sorry, but I just don't believe you. Unless you sharked yor game. If you actually had a Dancer who was that good, all your other characters would be nearly obsolete!

Drain my magic all you like. I don't need HP. Remember, calculated attacks do not require any MP. Therefore, I can heal and ressurrect indefinitely. And every character at once (Level3Raise2 and Level3 Holy (remember, I absorb Holy spells)). As you stated before, yes, I do have Math skills on. And I shall reiterate: they do not require MP nor are they limited to certain range. In addition, they are cast immediately upon selecting the attack. There is no charge time.

If you try any status anomaly on me, I still can rely on my strong physical attacks (Knights with an Excalibur and a Chaos Blade are usually rather good in that respect). On the other hand, I could just cast Level3Esuna.

You would not own me if you were on level 99 because I am on level 99.

And no, Monks are not necessarily faster. I have automaic Haste, remember? I do not choose the Knight class for their act skills.

Mwork-

Actually, I can attack any square on the field. You have zero Faith, but since I have good Faith, things like Level3PrayFaith might still work. If not, I can still ressurrect myself and work my way toward you. If I position my people correctly, I could have one unit in the back ressurrecting such that in order to get to him, you would have to past ressurrecting units who could move in and attack.

In regard to your question concerning jumped damage, I though you, being the Lancer lover that you are, would know that the farther away a unit is, the more damage you deal to it in a jumped attack.

You can fill up your CT my waiting, but so can I. Or I could get Protect on my people, not that it is worth anything. You are forgetting that if you MOVE, you are wasting time on your CT. Therefore, I would have time to do something before you could reach me. If I staggered my CTs (had some people act, others wait), then you would only be able to attack certain ones, and, in doing so, I would be able to ressurrect them after you kill them or attack you if you are in range. If you move so as to near to attack me, you are using time on your CT.

So, you are telling me you use all female Lancers? I hardly think you do. You seem to be the type who likes to try different combinations, so it is my educated guess that you do not employ that team currently.

Your citations of damage amount does not take into account how much damage would be dealt relative to my own HP totals. Excess HP damage does not do anything, you know. Also, position effects the amount of damage dealt, and, as you know, whether or not you can actually attack.

Chocobo-

Jump will not let you dodge spells if people time them right. At any rate, my spells are calculated, so it is impossible for you to avoid them. Mwork uses the only workable defense, which is having zero faith.

Mwork again-

Apparently, for same-speeded units, a Lancer's Jump would hit even if the target's CT is above 50. So you are using perfume for auto haste? That means you must have all female units. Other things to take into account are that females are weaker tham males and have less HP potentia (but admittedly more MP potential). What I mean is that if you trained each type to have optimal HP or MP the female would always win. As for your friends prediction of whether or not a jump would land, let me ask this: My CT would have to be at least 82 to avoid it? If that is so, you are forgetting that you are not necessarily faster than me. Both Lancers and Kinights have +10% speed advantage.

"I did in fact change my normal party into those female Lancers to make it easier to win, but only to show you that there's no such thing as an invincible party."

Thank you. That was the point I was getting at. At any rate, your Lancers would HAVE to be females to have auto Haste. Plus, they would HAVE to wear Chameleon Robes (as you already established) if you wanted to absorb Holy (not that you would need to).

The thing is with Math secondary skill is that it is best used with Knights. No other class works so well with it as Knights. Also, against a team with zero faith, it really cramps their style. But if you are a Knight with an Excalibur and Chaos Blade...

Lans-

MA is not important. Since every character is the same, then there will be five consecutive turns of Holy. I trained some as magic users turned Knights, so they are good with magic. Secondly, they all have good faith. My strong ones do an average of 300 HP of damage, the weaker ones 170-250 HP of damage. If I use Orlandu, that comes to three magic users turned Knights who do 300 HP of damage (3*300=900) and two who do, and let's round down, 170 of damage (2*170=240), for a total of 1140 (900+240=1140). Nothing but bosses survive that, unless you have zero faith. Holy does not miss. On a side note, in certain circumstances in which I used Level3PrayFaith to hit every unit, I have been able to deal 999 HP of damage per person. Of course, a Monk with Two Swords could do more, but they are less versatile and must do a physical attack with no range in order to deal the damage. Evasion is not worth while because it relies too heavily on luck and unpredictable affinities and such. I am not worried about getting killed. I can just Ressurrect all my units on a single turn.

Wizards suck. They have low HP, cannot do do physical attacks, etc. If you face off with a team with zero faith, you are doomed. MP Switch does not always work. Their HP levels being so low and their Faith levels being so high, I would need to connect with but one calculation to destroy that unit. Units with high Faith have no chance. The Reraise attribute of Chantage does not automatically Ressurrect (I am unsure, but even if I am wrong, it is a moot point, as you will see later). The unit will spend a few turns dead before it kicks in. Plus, I am not sure, but the effect might wear off.

The main benefit my team has that yours does not is speed. It would take one turn before you could calculate Haste on all your people. My team would get a turn first because they have auto Haste. By then, I coul calculate Level Three Flare and kill all of your people on one turn. You have low HP totals. Mine are high, me being able to equip high level armor whereas you cannot. If the one attack fails, then I can do another. I can heal myself with Holy when necessary and have only to wait until one calculation hits. I think that one of the five might just connect. I would, after all, be getting five consecutive turns before you.

Kikuijimoji (sp?) is the only of the Samurai swords (or Katana, whichever you prefer) that has any range. So don't necessarily rely on being able to target me on your first turn. Plus, on staggered levels like Nogias, Kikuijimoji is ineffective as a result of the height differences.

And let's pit teams. Even if MP Switch WAS effective, you cannot have that much MP. Three calculated attacks against you would uncoubtedly reduce that to zero, and leave two more calculated attacks to connect. That would kill you. Wizards suck in regard to HP totals and your have exceptionally high faith. If you ressurected immediately after being killed, my next attack would kill you. Your MP would not be replenished. The battle would be over before the last unit would ressurrect. But let's pretend I am wrong. You have one unit standing. You can attack me, but that is risky. Because Orlandu has a perfect set of armor and is better with physical attacks than magic, he, if no one else, would survive. Your turn is over and he would only have to Holy Explosion you to oblivion. Or, you might try and ressurrect your people. But that is a lost cause. By the time they are alive again, my people will have gotten a turn and I would simply Calculate another spell and you'd all be dead at once.

But let's say somehow, all your units survived. You cannot Kikuichimoji ALL my people with one character. I am not stupid and I would not put my people in rows. If you kill one Knight, that matters not at all to me. It first of all took you two turns to do; secondly, I could just ressurrect when my turn comes up. I think the Kikuichimoji has some range like 6 or 8, which is probably not enough to hit me. Also, you are restricting the fighting zone to flat areas. Nothing else would have the slightest chance of hitting me because the range is simply not enough.

"You probably should have realized by now that the ultimate party isn't with Knights. In fact, they are easily killed."

Actually, no. I'll assume you were not being a smart ass. in reality, you would not survive the first round of combat.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 07:38 AM
Mwork-

I realized that my "thank you" statement might easily be interpreted as me agreeing that my team could lose. Sorry. I do not concede that point. I meant that I agree that your team was tailored to have an advantage against my own.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 07:54 AM
Well, I must say, this whole discussion we got going on here is just excellent!

So the Wizard team doesn't really stand much of a chance. Let's just forget about them.

Onto other matters. Jay, you're mistaken. Jump inflicts the same amount of damage regardless of the target's nearness to the Jumper. I tested that out about an hour after I read that post. So position has no effect on the damage being dished out, unless the position is very far away so that the Lancer's couldn't reach the Knghts. Pray Faith won't have a ghost of a chance at being successful. You can forget about that. So you're only hope of ever killing the Lancer's is through physical attacks. I see you gave up the awesome power of the Chaos Blade. That decision right there reduces your physical damaging capabilities by roughly 65%. That's BIG loss of power. And with Abandon, your hits would never connect.

You said you would keep one character tucked away healing and reviving all the time. That tactic might work, but not wholly. I mean, you will be reviving and you will keep reviving because I would have to stay with the other Knights killing them over and over again. But, what good will that do you? You'll never win. The battle would just last forever, one Knight reviving his teammates with the enemy Lancers Jumping them back to death.

The Knights are beaten, seeing as their only chance of survival relies on having one of them stay in the back like a sissy to heal and revive. A bit cheap, if you ask me.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 08:01 AM
"Well, I must say, this whole discussion we got going on here is just excellent!"

I really must agree.

Onto other matters. Jay, you're mistaken. Jump inflicts the same amount of damage regardless of the target's nearness to the Jumper."

Are you certain about the Lancers? I have a game with all Lancers and if you attack at a range of 8, they always do 999, but if you attack at a range of 1, they do considerably less. If you have a Dex Drive (I just got one myself), then I can show you.

Pray Faith has worked on my own units with zero faith before, so I am just speaking from experience.

"I see you gave up the awesome power of the Chaos Blade."

When did I do that? I did not mean to. Please show me where I did that and I will correct it.

"I mean, you will be reviving and you will keep reviving because I would have to stay with the other Knights killing them over and over again. But, what good will that do you? You'll never win. The battle would just last forever, one Knight reviving his teammates with the enemy Lancers Jumping them back to death."

So then it would just be a stalemate, which is pointedly not a loss.

"The Knights are beaten."

Or brought to a stalemate, at worst. If one jump missed, that would be the window I would need to attack you. Then you would have to Ressurrect somehow, eliminating another turn.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 08:06 AM
1.) Jumps do not miss.

2.) You can't hit me at all

Mwork
05-19-2001, 08:07 AM
Oh, and I forgot something. I remember a post where you said you'd give up the Chaos Blade and use a shield instead. But I don't want to look through this monstrous thread, so you'll have to remember or look for it yourself.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 08:11 AM
Are you ABSOLUTELY sure about that?

Hits from behind can hit.

Obviously, you nor I will concede a defeat so...

What exactly do you think would beat that team? What you claim is that they cannot be touched by physical attacks and are uneffected my magic. That leaves what? Samurais and GEOMANCERS? LoL. With Samurais all you would have to do is stay out of range and jump at the opportune moment. I think my team would win because of my Math skills. But, that is a moot point now. I'd still like to know your idea of a good counter team.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 08:18 AM
Yes, I'm sure. The gold Escutcheon has Phys Ev. of 75% and a Magic Ev. of 50%, does it not? I'm pretty sure it does. And Abandon doubles the shield's capabilities.

Counter team for what other team?

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 08:22 AM
I assume you mean Escheucheon 2. Of course, not all of your characters would be able to equip it.

Counter the Lancer team.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 08:25 AM
Sure they can. Just dupe it! ^_^

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 08:26 AM
Blasphemy! *points at you* Cheater!!!

Mwork
05-19-2001, 08:34 AM
Yeah, well you're getting all these multiple copies of Chaos Blades and Excaliburs!

That's also cheating. You're using a programming mistake to your advantage.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 08:37 AM
Was that really a mistake though?

I like to cheat, for fun (not for serious). Resident Evil cheats are SO funny. Also, if it weren't for cheatsing, I'd never be able to have Velius use a Papyrus Plate on you!

Mwork
05-19-2001, 08:41 AM
Well, giving the player unlimited access to the most powerful, rarest weapons in the game sure does sound like a mistake.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 08:42 AM
Maybe they just wanted to leave the option open to the smartest player?

I don't know.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 08:45 AM
Well, at any rate, I'm having the damndest time thinking up a counter team for the Lancer's. It'll be VERY difficult to kill those chicks.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 08:47 AM
I guess Samurais would be most effective.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 09:08 AM
I GOT IT!!!!


A team consisting of:


1 Dancer

Br. 97
Fa. 03

Primary - Dance
Secondary - Punch Art
Reaction - (anything)
Suport - (anything)
Movement - (anything)

R.hand - (that bag that increases speed)
L.hand - (nothing)
Head - Thief Hat
Body - Secret Clothes
Accessory - Setiemson


and
4 Dancers

Br. 97
Fa. 03

Primary - Dance
Secondary - (Anything)
Reaction - Sunken State
Support - Attack UP
Movement - (anything)

R.hand - (anything)
L.hand - (nothing)
Head - Twist Headband
Body - Rubber Costume
Accessory - Bracer



Ok. Now that 1 Dancer has +5 Speed with her equips with an added Auto Haste. This assures that Dancer's turn will come up first. She'll just wait for now. Now, I'll have placed my other 4 Dancers in a line. When their turns come up, I'l have the 4 do Nameless Dance. Then when the fast Dancer's turn comes up again, I'll Earth Slash the other four, activating the 4 Dancers' Sunken State, which turns them invisible. Then I'll just leave them like that. Since the Dancers aren't doing any actions (I just choose wait) their invisibility won't wear off. They'll keep Nameless Dancing until the Lancers are Frogged! Then they can easily dispose of them.

Jay Ayanami
05-19-2001, 09:14 AM
LoL that is really funny.

Lans Tartare
05-19-2001, 02:14 PM
Mwork, you are making huge assumptions here:
1. you are assuming that his knights will be in perfect position to hit wizards.
2. in fact, in about every map, there is a way to position your men so that at least one of them can not be reached by melee attacks.
3. Draw Out wizards aren't affected by innocent, even it it hits. Also, the status wears off. Any other status except Oil, which can't be cast, will not affect the Wizards. In addition, if he kills a wizard, that status goes off when she reraises.
4. Wizards are not slow class, contrary to common believe. In fact, they have the same base speed as Lancers and Knights, 10% higher than that of the Squire. All classes have the same speed growth except for Ninja and Thief. Therefore the speed point is moot.
5. Chantage works when one's CT is filled.
6. Haste gives a 1.5x advantage in CT time.
7. Thus, the wizards will have their turn before the knights get their second set of turns.
8. You are forgetting about the 2 Math Skill wizards. There is a spell called Dispel Magic that removes Magic Defense Up. Unless he gains them from items, it can be removed.
9. MP can be easily recharged with the Move-MP up ability.
10. All Wizards require at least 2 hits from some source to die.
11. With 2 rune swords and such, you lose the Excalibur and Chaos Blade bonus.
12. Chameleon Robe ensure that he can't use Holy to hit them. Thus, he must use Flare, which means he will have a substantial chance of damaging his own team as well as mine.
13. Granted, Chantage is not something you can just waltz into a store and buy. However, you can get multiple copies of it by poaching.
14. You forget that with Draw Out, the wizards can easily set up their own Haste, Protect, and Shell.
15.

That Dancer team will do next to nothing in damage, of course, compared to the HP levels. There is no way they can do it fast enough before the enemies get their turn to 1. use a healing skill 2. get their turn in general. You forget that even though they have low faith, they can still be hit by attacking spells that are calculated. Of course, that will do nothing in damage, but it tells the other player where your Dancers are by looking at where the spell hit. After that, all you need is to go there and beat the Dancer to death. It is possible to attack empty spaces with melee, Draw Out, or magic.
I'll have to confirm this again with Ryan, but it is known that many reaction abilities will not occur if you are performing an action. Those actions include charging, singing, and dancing, or at least in my experience. Unless you want to argue that a 97 Brave Knight somehow missed the reaction Sunken State 3 times in a row while dancing on several occassions. Nevertheless, lets assume you can set that up.

Here is how the fight will go:
1. Set up the sunken state or whatever.
2. Knights go after the one that isn't invisible.
3. 1 hit will kill that one.
4. One knight calculates, and finds all the invisible Dancers.
5. The others go, leaving 1 Dancer alive.
6. The invisible Dancer gets her turn. She moves somewhere.
7. Knight calculate again, finds new location.
8. Knight kill the last Dancer.

Why did I leave out the Dance action? It's fairly simple: it takes forever to charge, usually about 8-12 turns. It gets even longer with people that are Hasted. Therefore that team doesn't work.

Jay, you are totally ignoring the 3 Wizards with 3 faith:
1. Magic spell works by K(MA)(C Faith)(T Faith)/10000*Zodiac capatibility=damage. Now, assume that damage=300 with high faith wizards, it means that the spell will do 300/18=16 damage. (FFT truncates decimals, so it will not round up to 17)
2. 16*5=a whooping 80 damage. That will really hurt.
3. % MP Switch to work=Brave/100. There is a 3% change that it won't work. What are the chances of that happening? You still have to deplete MP first.
4. The only class that gets an advantage in MA growth is the Mime class. Contrary to common belief, magicians do not have higher MA growth than normal classes. They just have a better class bonus stat. Those are two different concepts.
5. If it is true that you raised your knights as magicians, they will have much much lower HP than normal knights. In fact, they will have higher MP than normal, but you aren't even using it in any shape or form.
6. Chantage gives Auto-Regen and Auto-Reraise until it is removed from that unit, either by Breaking it or Stealing it. Neither is possible with Maintainance.
7. If you calculate Flare, you are liable very liable to damage your own units. If you heal with Holy, you are liable to hit mine, which will heal them. In either case, it's a give or take situation.
8. Mine will have their MP depleted before HP. Thus, it takes more than 1 turn nearly always to kill a wizard, with spells. Your knights will be near death or dead if you kill one of my wizards (which, by the way, will get right back up no matter what).
9. Kikuijimoji isn't the only Katana that I have. I also have Chirajiraden. That doesn't require a row.
10. You are also forgetting that you need a turn to resurrect someone.
11. It is impossible to kil the low faith wizards with spell in one turn, no matter what you are using.
12. You say that we don't have to be fighting in a flat area. That gives even a bigger advantage to my Wizards. In fact, it means it will not be possible for your knights to get to them in one turn, which means no melee attacks, which means you can't kill the low faith wizards. Even if you are right next to me, it's quite easily to position the starters so that at least one will not be able to be reached by one space melee attacks. You have no long range and non-magic based attacks, so you have no way to kill the low faith wizards.
13. %hit rate of Pray Faith is based on caster's and target faith. With a character that has 3 faith, it will have about... 1% chance of actually hitting. Even if it works, Pray Faith makes the affected person's Faith to be 150% of what it is supposed to be. That's a big 1 increase in faith.
14. My wizards will do 2x the damage your knights can. With Holy they will do 600, so they can heal themselves right there. With Flare they will do over 500. There are 2 of them, so 500*2=1000. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of normal units with over 1000 HP. Even L 99 Tiamats only have 999.
15. I won't be calculating spells. Whey would I do that when Using Masamune would give me all the status effects I'll need?

Your total neglect of factors has led to that conclusion. It is, in fact, your knights that won't survive.
Oh yeah, and you assume that Chantage is random. It's not. Even time the unit's CT fills, the person will reraise. So don't give me that "what is Chantage doesn't work in time"

Mwork
05-19-2001, 04:22 PM
Well, I'm done defending Jay's Knights. I'm still sure they can win, but it was Jay who was trying to prove his party was invincible, not me. So I'll let him debate that.


On the Dancers, they're a counter team for the Lancers. Lancers. LANCERS

I'm not planning on using Wiznaibus to attack. I know it's an almost useless ability. Like I said, they'd be using Nameless Dance. Also, that one Dancer is supposed to die. She's served her purpose, I don't need her anymore and I can't use her effectively, so I'll just let her get killed. Even if the other 4 did get hit, they're Sunken State would keep them invisible. Hey, I'm not stupid. I wouldn't keep the Dancers in that same spot if somehow the Lancers spotted them. That's just retarded. I would move away. So they would just Nameless until the Lancers are inflicted with some nice status ailments, preferably Frog, then just whack the froggies to death with their cloth.

And that last part, I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
That whole "I'll have to confirm this again with Ryan, but it is known that many reaction abilities will not occur if you are performing an action. Those actions include charging, singing, and dancing, or at least in my experience. Unless you want to argue that a 97 Brave Knight somehow missed the reaction Sunken State 3 times in a row while dancing on several occassions. Nevertheless, lets assume you can set that up."

And remember, the Dancers are made to beat the Lancers NOT the Knights.







O_O wow! I didn't think anyone here would know any of the calculations for an attack. I thought I was the only one in this message board.

Lans Tartare
05-19-2001, 04:47 PM
Letting that Dancer die is a batant waste of troops. Not only does that increase your casualty list, but you'll have to set that party up from scratch again. You don't have a way to revive that character.
By the way, what I mean is that while performing an action that doesn't occur immediately, reaction and evasion seem to not work. This is because a 97 Brave knight didn't use Sunken State when hit 3 times by 3 different enemies. This is probably not a coincidence, but I'll wait for confirmation.
By the way, countering Lancer is extremely easy. Just use some kind of strong unit equipped with Concentrate, and it goes right through Escutcheon II.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 04:54 PM
Increase my casualty list? That does not matter one bit. I couldn't care less about that. What bad can it do?

Set that party up from scratch?

What?

Ah. I see. But the Lancers would still have extremely low chances of ever finding the Dancers. It doesn't matter that their evasion is non-existant while performing.

Lans Tartare
05-19-2001, 05:16 PM
It means that if you can't end the fight within 3 turns, which probably you can't due to the long charge time and inaccuracy of songs and dances, that dancer will turn into a crystal. It's a vastly inefficient party.
The evasion doesn't matter. However, reaction does. As I have said twice in this post, reactions seem to not occur while performing a prolonged action. That is, you CANNOT have a Sunken State activated after they start dancing. Get that through your thick head.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 05:23 PM
I don't know what you're thinking, but that was already through my thick head a looong time ago.


The reaction has no need to be activated more than once. Once the Dancers have been Earth Slashed, they'll continue Dancing without choosing any act and will remain invisible. And there's almost no chance of the Lancers hitting them and removing the invisibility.


Vastly inefficient? No, not a whole lot, they can still win the battle. I knew from the very start that Dancer would turn into a crystal. But that doesn't matter.

And not so inaccurate. Nameless Dance has a 50% chance of taking effect on a target. That's pretty decent.

Lans Tartare
05-19-2001, 06:56 PM
Once again, you have missed my whole point. While dancing, the Dancer will not respond with a reaction is what I am confirming.
Training a new Dancer each time you participate in a battle is extremely inefficient.
50% chance, assuming normal Zodiac capatibilities, assuming none of the characters are guarded against its effects, which is easy. Just put a ribbon on, and your entire plan gets slashed to nothing. It's possible to equip a ribbon on a Lancer.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 07:02 PM
I ALREADY KNEW THAT A LOOONG TIME AGO!
I got the point when I asked you to explain your post because I didn't understand what you were trying to say. But once you explained, I KNEW.

Those Dancers were made just for THAT ONE battle against THOSE PARTICULAR Lancers. I would never ever ever EVER use this party on normal play.



Hey, T.G.C.

You say Agrias can Wiznaibus 600HP off of an enemy?
That is IMPOSSIBLE.

Wiznaibus Damag = [(1 +Br / 100) * PA]

So, even with the highest Br. and PA possible (100 and 99) here's how the attack would turn out.

[1 + 100 / 100) * 99] = (1.01 * 99) = 99.99 = 100 HP

I'm assuming you meant to type 60HP, or, more likely, 6HP, since Dancers don't normally have a PA of 60.

Lans Tartare
05-19-2001, 07:12 PM
You missed yet another point:
Reaction abilities do not occur if your character is charging for Charge, Spell, Dance, Song, or Limit. I said I am going to confirm this soon. It true, they it's impossible to set up the party you have mentioned.

By the way, it's possible to get multiple copies of Chaos Blades and Excaliburs without duplicating. You can simply go into one of the stages with Ninjas (HORROR or Araguay Woods), and catch them, provided that you are at the right level.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 07:18 PM
This is just dumb now!


Once Sunken State activites, the unit will remain invisible NO MATTER WHAT. The only things that would remove the invisibility are if the Dancer takes damage or Acts. Now, Once you start Dancing, you don't have to keep Acting to execute more Dances. They just keep going on and on. So you'll never choose Act, therefore the invisibility will not wear off.




And yes, I already knew you can Catch rare weapons. Didn't everybody? You just interpretted that other post of mine wrong, I guess.

Lans Tartare
05-19-2001, 07:45 PM
I will repeat this for the last time:
It has been in my experience that reactions do not occur if you are charging, dancing, or singing. Thus, it is impossible to put them into the invisible mode after they start to dance. If you activate it before then, once the Dancers start going, they will lose the invisibility.
You said he must have cheated because he had multiple copies of the special knight swords.

Mwork
05-19-2001, 07:51 PM
Yeah, by Catching.


OH! I forgot this.


I see that point you say I've been missing. I misread your posts. Happens all the time with me, so try not to let it bother you. :D

And to all those posts I respond:
Well, I guess that you haven't had enough experience then, because Sunken State will in fact activate even if the Dancers are already performing.

SerGe
05-20-2001, 01:29 AM
<small>Whoa, this is a friggen' big discussion! Now, I have a small question (of sort)s to Mwork.

Okay, Jay explained that the est you could get is a stalemate, because everytime your lancers killed a knight, he would revive them the next turn with the knight way at the back.

Now assuming the HP damage totals you stated, you would be able to kill each Knight with one Lancer, correct?

Now, if each lancer takes on each of the advancing knights, wouldn't there be one Lancer left, as there would be no knight for him to kill.

Now, if this were true, wouldn't you be able to find some way to pass the advancing guards with the one Lancer, and kill the Knight at the back?

I'm not a super strategist as you guys, so that's why I'm not too sure. :)

Mwork
05-20-2001, 01:59 AM
Hmmm.....that slipped my mind completely! Yes, yes, that could work.

But then there's a small chance of one the Jumps not landing on time, that's why I had originally planned on having all the Lancers stay with the four Knights.

Lemme see.....the Knights would have about 320 natural HP if they were leveled as Wizards. But he said that some were raised as Knights, so those would have around 380HP. With Maximillian and Grand Helmet equipped, that would bring the 380 up to 730. And a female Lancer would have 16 PA, which would be modified to 21 because of Attack UP. Then with the Ultimate Javelin, they would do....DAMMIT! Only 630HP worth of damage.

OK, maybe if I were to use Draw Out as a secondary, I could Masamune them. That would leave space for a Bracer. So the Lancers' PA would now be 25 with Attack UP. And they would hit for....750HP!! All right! That's enough to kill the strongest Knight.

Lans Tartare
05-20-2001, 03:29 AM
While Dancing and Singing, the character's evasion is lowered to 0, like any other charge. While charging, Blade Grasp and other Brave based attacks do not work. I have not tested it with Sunken State specifically (to the point that I can remember it clearly), but it's reasonable to assume that the same applies to it. If you have not actually performed the action you said with those Dancers, it's more reasonable to believe that there would be no reaction.
Lancer's Jump ability will do 3/2 damage as calculated by (PA*Weapon Power) if equipped with a spear. Thus, a Lancer that has 16 PA, with a Javalin of 30 power, will do 640 a jump. Attack Up is calculated at the end, with the damage. That would mean it's a 960 damage with each jump, not 640. However:
Lancers and Knights both have the same class speed bonus. However, Knights will get their turn before the Lancers can come down from a Jump. This gives some opportunity to:
Put up Defense Up, and reduce the damage by 2/3. That only requires one knight, anywhere.
You are assuming that the Lancers get a chance to jump, and it's probable that the Knights can't get right next to the Lancers right away to attack. Thus, they will only move.
When that happens, the Knights do not need to charge up all 100 CT to act. It starts at either 33 or 50. Assuming the lower, 33, they will have to charge 166 CT at normal speed. With the 3/2 speed bonus, however, it's only 110 CT to be charged.
Your Lancers:
66 CT to be charged before getting a turn to act. They, you have 50 more to charge for the Jump ability. That's 116 CT to be charged. It's more than enough for the Knights to move out of the way.
With Setiemson, the Lancers will not have any back EVA, givin the Knight a simple option of just attacking from the back.

By the way, you've yet to come up with a reasonable way to beat my Wizards with any of the current party without totally ignoring a huge number of factors.

Mwork
05-20-2001, 04:26 AM
GAAAHH!! You and your "you're assuming blah blah blah and you assumed blah blah blah because you're making huge assumptions blah blah blah blah blah blah" all the time.

I'm not assuming, man. I never assumed the Knights would be in perfect position to hit the Wizards! I never said they'd be able to physically attack right from the start, they would have to make their way to the Wizards. I never forgot about the Math Skill Wizards. Didn't you read my original post? All the Knights would have do to is calculate Petrify on those Math Skillers, if the spell somehow can't be cast only on them (meaning, some of the Knights are also targeted) then just Doubt Faith. Math Skilling Wizards are useless for a while. Then when it wears off, try Petrify again, and if not possible then just Doubt Faith again! That'll work until Petrify will be able to be calculated on the Math Skilling Wizards. Then the Knights would head for the Draw Outers. I never forgot the Draw Out Wizards. As I mentioned, they're Draw Outs would do low damage now (Magic Defense Up) AND the Knights have Regen, so no worries there. Also, I know that the Draw Outers would Masamune and Kiyomori their teammates! But still, what good would Protect do? The Wizards would have crappy as hell HP. Around 250HP and about 190MP. So the Excalibur would damage 305MP, 229MP with Protect. Either way, the Wizard's MP is gone. Then Chaos Blade, 582HP normally, 436 with Protect. Either way, your HP is gone. Meaning the Wizard is dead. And so what if their MP is recharged when you move? You're either dead before it happens or it happens, but you haven't been touched by the Knights yet, so that won't help either. And when a Wiz is revived and moves, a Knight just Attacks again, killing her again. Shell, well that's good for the Knights because you'd be absorbing less HP from Holy. And the Regen, that's also pointless. Your HP will be completely filled until the time when the Knights smack the Wizard, at which point the Wizard dies. Regen wouldn't be much help to a dead Wizard. The only one that isn't useless is Haste. But despite that, I still believe the Knights have a better chance of winning.

Totally ignoring a huge number of factors?!?!
.....what the hell?!?! What did I ignore??? My first post had not left anything out.




Dancers
IT WILL WORK FOR SURE. IT IS THE TRUTH. If you keep not believing me, then go ahead and try it yourself, you stubborn Tartare. But it DOES work.

I was calculating NORMAL attacks, not Jumps. I wasn't gonna take any chances of the Knights moving away when I Jumped, even though there's a small chance of that happening.






Also, the Knights can't possibly set up Defense Up during battle. Protect maybe, but never ever Defense Up.


Nope. Attack Up's 3/2 damage bonus is applied to PA in the calculation, not to the end with the damage. If you don't believe me (which you probably won't), then check the FAQ.





I'm sure I made a couple of mistakes there. I was in a hurry. I'll recheck it later when I have some time.

Lans Tartare
05-20-2001, 06:44 AM
Once again, you've ignored something very important:
Ribbon.
The only status you can impose on my characters is Innoncent. Granted, Oil can be as well, but there are no Bombs in the battle.
Since there is such a speed disparity caused by the Knights Auto-haste, the parties will go with all 5 in a row.
Assume he imposes Innocent:
Just use Draw Out with the wizards. Chirajiraden will do... around 450, even with Magic Defense Up. That requires 2 Draw Out to kill a knight. There are 3 of them that can perform the action. You can do the rest of the math. As soon as he gets within a certain area, it's almost impossible to survive. Since Draw Out have a larger range than melee attacks, wizards have a great chance of getting the hit in than the Knights.

By the way, have you even tried the Dancer trick?
Attack UP is applied to the end damage. Just equip the skill and look at your PA. It doesn't change, but the damage does. Since it's multiplication, the effect of Attack UP is the same at the end regardless of where it is put. However, there is no change in actual stat.

Mwork
05-20-2001, 06:58 AM
It doesn't change your PA on the screen, just in the calculation. Yes, I know it doesn't matter because the damage is still the same. I was just correcting you. Like I said, look in the FAQ. You'll see it is applied to PA.



"Once again, you've ignored something very important"

What have I ignored before that part about forgetting the Wizards had Ribbons equipped?




Try the Dancer scenario if you wish. You'll see.


Also, why do you keep bugging me on that whole Knights vs. Wizards battle? I have nothing to do with it. It's between you and Jay.

Lans Tartare
05-20-2001, 07:39 AM
I don't really care what FAQ says. It does not change the stat. Therefore it must not apply to PA, but in other other part of the process. It does apply to the damage, and it's more reasonable to say that it applies to damage.
How would you petrify anybody that has Ribbon on, which can't be stolen nor broken. Even if both target and castor have 1000000000000 Faith (which, by the way, is impossible), it will not do anything.
I have tried a similar scenario with Dancers, and it did not work.
It's very simple: you are the one tryng to depict is totally out of proportion, with each argument excluding a huge number of factors/variables that are involved.

Mwork
05-20-2001, 02:45 PM
What huge number of factors???????????????

You keep saying that, but never actually telling me what you believe it is I'm ignoring when I ask you.


Don't want to believe me? That's fine. Just forget about that whole Attack Up thing.





And what you said about the Ribbon, just read my post. The one before yours.




What was that scenario you mentioned you tried?


Because I have seen a performing Dancer get smacked and her Sunken State was still activated. Several times.

Lans Tartare
05-20-2001, 04:17 PM
It's very simple:
1. the knights do not start right next to the wizards, therefore they can't simply walk up and attack everyone.
2. positioning
3. chantage
4. ribbon
5. turn clustering
6. a myriad of other factors.

Setup
1 dancer
97 brave
performing slow dance
hit 3 times
sunken state
didn't work
Are you going to tell me it's coincidence?

SerGe
05-20-2001, 04:37 PM
"DAMMIT! Only 630HP worth of damage."


<small>Well yes, it would only do around that much, BUT you may be forgetting something really important so you don't have to use a bracer.


How is he gonna heal?

Quite simple, ain't it? He already stated that Holy would only heal about 2-300 HP, so one more turn would screw him, wouldn't it?

Or, if he wanted to, he could try and reraise his other knights, but then your Lancers would kill them if the jumps were to hit them on the first shot. Heck, you could just equip Concentrate on the one Lancer to get a 100% chance of nailing the one knight.

And if he tried to kill you with the one knight, his chances would be real slim if you have the Eustacheon (or however it's spelt) II equipped, right?

Mwork
05-21-2001, 12:44 AM
1.) When did I ever say, or even imply, the Knights could just attack from the get-go? I had posted that they would go and attack the Wizards. Go and attack the Wizards. That word pretty much says they'll have to Move (quite far, most likely) in order to get to the Wizards.

2.) What about positioning?

3.) My other posts all had a part where I mentioned some the Wizards would have to get killed repeatedly until the Knights would be able to kill them all before any one of them had the chance to revive. I'm positive that by saying that I was not ignoring the Chantages.

4.) Alright, you don't want to read that post I told you to reread. So I'll just tell you here what it said. I had posted that I forgot the Wizards were wearing Ribbons, which is why I had originally said the Knights would Petrify them. Because I forgot about Ribbon, not ignored it. So, instead of Petrify, just Doubt Faith those Math Skilling Wizards.

what other factors?





Coincidence? No.

It all depends on what you hit the Dancer with. Against some attacks, Sunken State won't activate. It seems to be only physical attacks will trigger Sunken State while the Dancers are peforming. Try it and see.

Also, Earth Slash wouldn't trigger the reaction. I was going to post this a lot earlier, but I've been pretty busy today. But that still wouldn't stop the Dancers from beating the Lancers. That fast Dancer would just Attack as many of her partners as she can before the Lancers are able to reach them. After all, only one invisible Dancer is needed to Frog all the Lancers. It'll just take more time that way.

Jay Ayanami
05-21-2001, 01:19 AM
Lans, what crawled up your ass and died?

You have stooped to petty smart ass comments that I amlost don't feel like gratifying with a response. Almost.

I ignored the 3 wizards with poor faith, but it does not matter. Here we go:

Today I cracked open the old Playstation and popped in Tactics. My best Knight-Calculators (actually, since they were used as Mimes, they did, in fact have magic attack growth; I used to like using the Calculator - Mime team for quick kills) did 400 damage with Level3Holy. So the two Wizards with faith now have zero MP. The next of my Knights goes and kills those two off with Level3Holy. I raised some of my Knights as magic users, the others as Physical attackers. I did that so that I would have people who, when they became Calculators earlier, would be able to use the job class. It is not fun to have a Caulculator who cannot cast any spells. Flare can be countered with Holy or Cure 3. If I calculate Holy by CT, there is a good chance I will NOT hit you, because all of my people are the same and yours are different.

"Mine will have their MP depleted before HP. Thus, it takes more than 1 turn nearly always to kill a wizard, with spells. Your knights will be near death or dead if you kill one of my wizards (which, by the way, will get right back up no matter what)."

One turn to take away the MP, another to recast Level3Holy and kill it. If you are reraised, it is of no consequence. You are healed not much more than 200 HP (at the most) with Reraise, and that is easily reduced to zero with even my weakest magic Knights.

Chirajiraden still does not have the range Kikuimoji has, so you will somehow have to get close to me to hit me. I don't know how you are going to manage that.

"You are also forgetting that you need a turn to resurrect someone."

On the first round of my own turns, I would not need to ressurrect because none of my people will have died.

I would kill the low faith Wizards with physical attacks - not too difficult with a Chaos Blade and Excalibur in hand. It would simply be a matter of walking near you. If you managed to kill one, it would be ressurrected in a flash. Personally, I don't see how you can damage all my people enough so as to kill them and keep them dead.

You have 2 wizards with high faith. And they are dead. Therefore, you will not cast Holy. And, since MP switch depleted their MP, they will have to calculate it. And, at that point (according to you, at least) you will have damaged me. The only reliable way to target a character to heal is Level3Holy, and you would be healing me too. Let's hope you can target the person you need to heal with some other Calculate skill.

My wizards will do 2x the damage your knights can. With Holy they will do 600, so they can heal themselves right there. With Flare they will do over 500. There are 2 of them, so 500*2=1000. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of normal units with over 1000 HP. Even L 99 Tiamats only have 999.[i]

That is pretty much worthless because they are both dead. They died in the first round. And then they ressurrect, I only have to cast Level3Holy (or whatever...just know I mean an offensive spell) to kill them. You are also assuming you will hit me. If you calculate the spell, as you said, you would be at risk of being it as well. You will not target me with Flare (with your high faith Wizards), because you have no MP. If you target me with your others, it will be weaker, and you will not be able to calculate. Besides...MP switch would have depleted their MP too, right?

If you are not calculating spells, then why have the ability equiped? If you have MP Switch on, how, then, do you plan to muster the MP to use Flare? You have no capacity to regain your MP. I am pretty sure there is no Draw Out ability that [i]restores MP. How do you plan on Flaring me, unless by calculating, which you say you will not be doing?

"Even time the unit's CT fills, the person will reraise. So don't give me that "what is Chantage doesn't work in time""

Grow up. CT, while not random, will not necessarily come at a convenient time. Don't treat me like I am stupid, when you are the one equiping Calculate then saying "I won't be calculating spells". That makes no sense whatsoever.

Jay Ayanami
05-21-2001, 01:22 AM
Forgive the HTML error, I am sure you are smart enough to figure out what it meant to look like.

Lans Tartare
05-21-2001, 02:14 AM
Go ahead and use Level3 holy. You'll be healing 400 hp to my wizards. This just shows what an incompetent commander is capable of.
It doesn't matter how much my wizards raise at. When they reraise, it is their turn. Therefore it is not your knights that will get to go. You said that your knights have high faith, but you are protected against only 2-3 status effects. In one turn, I will be able to destroy your entire party using Frog/Petrify/Sleep/Stop, or whichever.
By the way, I have no incentive to get close to you. Because you can't afford to wait and let my high faith wizards that died to reraise, as they will crush your knights in one turn. That means I can just wait while your knights get near, upon which time I can choose whatever katana is needed.
It would be difficult to reach the low faith wizards. You forget that in the beginning, you get to position your units. Thus, even if I have one low-faith wizard that can't be reached by melee, you have no way of killing her before the others reraise.
You are speaking as if my wizards won't get a turn. That is totally false, and distortion of facts. Once a wizard resurrects, it's her turn. Thus, they will get to cast whatever spell is needed, be it L3flare, L3Frog, or whatever.
CT filling is entirely dependent on speed and related status effects. There is no random chance. Because the base speeds are the same, I know that my wizards will get their turn before your knights get their 2nd turn.
By the way, Move MP-Up will ensure that I have a way to restore MP, which will keep MP switch going.
Come to think of it, after reading that really poorly thought out plan you presented, there is absolutely 0 chance your knights can possibly win, with the exception in a scenario where they start right next to my wizards, with each one in a convenient position to land a melee hit right away.

Mwork:
I said it before, and I'll say it again, but perhaps a visual aid is better.
- wall | wall *wizard
|------------------------
|***
|**
or
-------------------
__ ***
___**
Tell me, how would the knights reach the wizards surrounded by the other wizards? If those are 3 faiths ones, it would be impossible to kill them before the others reraise.
Choco Attack is physical, last time I checked.

Mwork
05-21-2001, 02:54 AM
Choco Attack = physical attack?!?!
Regular monsters don't have physical attacks.

That's more like a special attack. If it were a physical attack, don't you think Hamedo would stop it?


The only monsters with normal physical attacks are Byblos and the Ultima/Archaic Demons and Apandas and Worker 8.

Actually, I'm not positive if those are the right monsters, but I do know that there's only a few special kinds of monsters that have regular physical attacks, which would trigger Hamedo and Sunken State.


Try an actual physical attack. You know, where you have to choose the command "Attack." Those are physical attacks. You'll see it'll work.

Lans Tartare
05-21-2001, 04:32 AM
Actually, Choco Attack is a physical attack. It triggers: Counter attack, Blade Grasp, Speed Save, Face Up, Brave Up, or whatever. It also triggers Sunken State under normal conditions (without charging).
By the way, Jump is a physical attack that triggers counter, etc, but not Hamedo. Hamedo only works with the Attack command. Attack and physical attacks are two different matters.

Jay Ayanami
05-21-2001, 01:40 PM
I'll say it again, Lans. You are no better than anyone else here, so don't act superior.

"Go ahead and use Level3 holy. You'll be healing 400 hp to my wizards. This just shows what an incompetent commander is capable of."

Actually, if you were actually reading my post, you would have seen that I said "I only have to cast Level3Holy (or whatever...just know I mean an offensive spell) to kill them". My team is made to use Holy, but any other spell will work.

"It doesn't matter how much my wizards raise at. When they reraise, it is their turn. Therefore it is not your knights that will get to go. You said that your knights have high faith, but you are protected against only 2-3 status effects. In one turn, I will be able to destroy your entire party using Frog/Petrify/Sleep/Stop, or whichever. "

I am interested in knowing how you will do this, considering you told me you will not be calculating spells.

"By the way, I have no incentive to get close to you. Because you can't afford to wait and let my high faith wizards that died to reraise, as they will crush your knights in one turn. That means I can just wait while your knights get near, upon which time I can choose whatever katana is needed. "

You cannot crush my Knights in one turn. I only need to let one hang back to Raise them. It's not a difficult strategy to muster. Katanas do not have that kind of attack range.

"It would be difficult to reach the low faith wizards. You forget that in the beginning, you get to position your units. Thus, even if I have one low-faith wizard that can't be reached by melee, you have no way of killing her before the others reraise."

First of all, you are assuming that it will be positioned in such a way that I will not be able to attack it. You changed your party; originally you only had 2 high faith Wizards. Besides, Holy Explosion has a pretty decent attack range.

"You are speaking as if my wizards won't get a turn. That is totally false, and distortion of facts. Once a wizard resurrects, it's her turn. Thus, they will get to cast whatever spell is needed, be it L3flare, L3Frog, or whatever. "

Again, I am just going on what you said. And that was that you won't be calculating spells. Again, if you do, you run the risk of hitting your own people.

"CT filling is entirely dependent on speed and related status effects. There is no random chance. Because the base speeds are the same, I know that my wizards will get their turn before your knights get their 2nd turn."

I don't believe this is something I said. Clearly, CT is affected by such status effects as Haste and Slow, etc. I don't belive I ever said CT was random. I never said that you would not get a second turn given that you had 3 low faith Wizards. In fact, I said that if you killed one of my Knights, I would Raise them. Does that not indicate that you would have a turn? Obviously, it does, unless I am one to believe that you can act without regard to when your turn comes up.

By the way, Move MP-Up will ensure that I have a way to restore MP, which will keep MP switch going.
Come to think of it, after reading that really poorly thought out plan you presented, there is absolutely 0 chance your knights can possibly win, with the exception in a scenario where they start right next to my wizards, with each one in a convenient position to land a melee hit right away.

Your are wrong. I am sorry, but Move MP-Up does not fill up 400 MP, and I am willing to bet that you do not even have that many. Thus, it is a simple matter of attacking once with Flare (but I could use a weaker spell, of course) and reducing it to zero.

Although I should simply dismiss your argument about positioning as a blank rant, here goes:

First of all, you changed your party from 2 faith Wizards to 3. Secondly, in order to regain your MP, you have to MOVE. Thus, you would leave your primary Wizard unguarded. If I moved like this:

+ = me
o = you

_______
|ooo
|oo

+

...then I could attack with Lightning Stab and only risk attack from a Kikuijimoji.

It's not a difficult strategy.

Mwork
05-21-2001, 02:43 PM
Alright, so I got little careless there. No biggy. There should have been a "normal" in front of physical attack.

Still, Choco Attack is a special attack, as is Jump. Those are attacks that only Chocobos and Lancers can use, making them pretty special.

That test you did though, it's still not a very good one. I never said anything about taking a Chocobo into battle and using it to Sunken State the Dancers. So I see no reason for you to have used a Chocobo to test it out.

So just try using a human unit to Sunken State the other Dancers into invisibility.

Lans Tartare
05-21-2001, 08:50 PM
I didn't use chocobos to test. I took a person into battle that happened to get hit by a chocobo. By the way, 'special' attacks, such as Uribo's straight dash, triggers Sunken State, so there is no reason to believe Choco Attack cannot.
I said I will not need to calculate spells. If I get a turn, there is no reason not to. There are 2 wizards capable of it.
Actually, I'd be interested in knowing how your knight would calculate anything while in the shape of a frog, or in a body made of stone. As I said, one L3Frog, L3Petrify will knock all of your knights out of commission. You have absolutely no evade there.
I am not assuming any positioning. It is a fact that you get to position units at the start of a battle. It is also a fact that you can surround at least one unit at any given time with 5.
Even if I hit my own people
1. since my wizards will resurrect at their turn, they will only hit the low faith wizards, doing next to nothing.
2. the second wizard that resurrects will go after the first moves, thus replenishing MP.
3. My party is protected against statuses that will end the fight instantly, or reducing one team's chance of winning to 0. Even if I hit my team with Break, Frog, Stop, Sleep, Paralyze, or whatever, it will have no effect, or is your memory so short that you forgot I put ribbons on them?
As long as I have even 1 MP, any attack will only do MP damage. Therefore it requires at least 1 knight to move.
By the way, I have not changed any numbers. I don't know where to get that from.
I don't need to regain MP if my wizard is only taking 17 damage each turn, as the low faith ones. The low faith wizard surrounding another is the same as a high faith one surrounding one. I have not changed the numbers.
As I said, it is much more reasonable to put a low faith wizard in the middle. There is no need to replenish MP if I I lost 5*16=80 MP, while I have 300-400.
Remember, no matter what kind of attack you choose to use, you must get to me within one turn. That is not possible in most maps. Ignoring that for a moment:
1. Lightning Stab is not a knight ability.
2. You must use more than one, which means you need to get more than one there.
Once again, we are back to positioning, a crucial matter in the game. Your team needs to reach mine to do any damage to the low faith wizards. All I need is a one turn.

Mwork
05-21-2001, 11:55 PM
"I took a person into battle that happened to get hit by a chocobo."

That pretty much gives it away that you did use a Chocobo to test it out.



But like I've said so many times before, try taking a human to Sunken State the Dancers into invisibility. It doesn't even have to be a normal attack, either. Some not-normal attacks, like Wave Fist, still trigger the reaction while the Dancers are performing.

Lans Tartare
05-22-2001, 02:43 AM
I did not use a chocobo to test it. It just so happens that there were many chocobos in that battle. I did not bring it into battle, nor command that chocobo.

Anyway, I'll drop this argument until I get confirmation from other sources.

Mwork
05-22-2001, 02:50 AM
I see. You should have said that before, not just that "happened to get hit by a Chocobo."

But, why wait? Just try it yourself.

Quicker that way.

Lans Tartare
05-22-2001, 02:59 AM
Can't. Don't have a controller for the PSX. Existing one has a broken start button, and it will keep pausing and unpausing the game.

Jay Ayanami
05-22-2001, 04:34 PM
"I said I will not need to calculate spells. If I get a turn, there is no reason not to. There are 2 wizards capable of it."

That makes no sense. You control the Wizards, don't you? You keep talking about how you will have them do status attack calculations...

"Actually, I'd be interested in knowing how your knight would calculate anything while in the shape of a frog, or in a body made of stone. As I said, one L3Frog, L3Petrify will knock all of your knights out of commission. You have absolutely no evade there."

Smart ass comments again, I see. In accordance, grow up. This is no place for your childish games. I can calculate any spell I like on turn one without fail. You will not get a turn before me.

"I am not assuming any positioning. It is a fact that you get to position units at the start of a battle. It is also a fact that you can surround at least one unit at any given time with 5."

You are assuming you will be against a wall. You are not always against a wall when you begin a game. Yes, you are assuming position.

Your little dissertation is very nice, but it is not really worth replying point by point. Looking at your original team and the one youa re using now, I see a difference in the number of high faith Wizards. On a side note, do not resport to petty insults. If you cannot put this message board into perspective, I hardly think you can analyze the outcome of a game. Your arrogant attitute is disgusting and, like your smart ass comments, has no place here.

"1. Lightning Stab is not a knight ability. "

Did I not specify that Orlandu was on my team? Sorry for that misconception. I would have thought it obvious that Holy Knight is superior to Knight.

It does not matter what you or I say. I still think my team would win. There are too many holes in your argument, too many contengincies that are simply unpredictable. Arguing with you is nearly a lost cause, if only because of your grossly arrogant attitude, which I personally find disgusting.

Lans Tartare
05-22-2001, 09:10 PM
You just admitted that I said I will be calculating status attack spells. Those are still calculated spells. Therefore I must not have said I won't be calculating spells.
As I said about the status, your knights will go first. However, if you can't kill all of the wizards that have low faith, which you can't, due to positions, my wizards will get up before your knights get a second turn. Have you forgotten Chantage once again? I only need 1 status spell to disable your knights.
Actually, most maps start you out near a wall. In addition, there are 5 people. There will always be one that can be surrounded by the others. Thus, I am not assuming position. I merely gave exmaples using walls because it's easier to draw.
In addition, in most maps, you can't reach the other players in 1 turn, unless you get very lucky with Teleport.
Actually, if you actually read the post, I did not change the numbers. You, however, obviously are forgetting a lot of details.
By the way, your posted your team as
5 knights, equipped with...

Secondary skill set: Calculator Skills.
Reaction skill set: Counter Attack.
Support skill set: Two swords.
Movement skill set: Move + 3

and...

Right hand: Excalibur.
Left hand: Chaos Blade.
Head: Grand Helmet.
Body: Maximillian.
Acessory: Germinias Boots, Speed Shoes, Magic Glove, or Genji Glove.
First of all, you said 5 knights. Second of all, all of them have Math Skills. Thus, there is no place left for Orlandu.

By the way, your almost total ignorance of facts totally undermines your argument by itself. I am merely pointing out the holes that permiates your argument in almost every paragraph. Your hypocracy is worse than my alleged arrogance, which is probably the only reason you are even arguing, seeing the totally flawed and incompetent plan of attack you are using.

Jay Ayanami
05-23-2001, 01:01 AM
Despite what I posted, I would have thought it was obvious whe I started talking about Orlandu what I intended to use him. I could always split the semantic hair and argue that all Holy Knights are Knights, just as all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Therefore, I win either way. Sorry.

And, just for the record, your original team was:

2 female wizards:
97 Brave, 84 Faith

Math Skill
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

3 female wizards:
97 Brave, 3 Faith

Draw Out
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

Wizard Rod
N/A
Ribbon
Chameleon Robe
Chantage

Yet all of a sudden there are 3 high faith Wizards. How does that work?

And aside from the topic at hand, let me further explain your arrogance. You, who knows nothing about me, assumes that I am ignorant and stupid. You think your opinion, your opinion, is better than mine and Mwork's. I must assure, your opinion is no better than anyone else's. You are not better than me, nor I, you. But, unlike you, I never claimed that you were either ignorant nor did I suggest you were stupid. Enough with your assinine comments, please. It is unenjoyable. Remember, this message board is for FUN.

"You just admitted that I said I will be calculating status attack spells. Those are still calculated spells. Therefore I must not have said I won't be calculating spells."

I never denied this. You, on the other hand, said that you would not be calculating spells. Odd, that.

You also assume that your status attack will affect my Knights. If but one survives, I need only to cast Level3Esuna.

Next, yes, most battles do start of next to a wall. "A" is the operative word. Your senario put you against two walls. In any case, there is always Lightning Stab, etc.

An any case, I think we can agree that such battles as "Mlapan" in the Deep Dungeon do NOT put you against the wall, you ARE indeed assuming that you will be able to surround one character. Remember, not all positioning grids have a dimension of 3 by whatever, which would be necessary for you to have if there was no wall.

In regards to that, I will cite the following: "If those are 3 faiths ones, it would be impossible to kill them before the others reraise." You said that in the 13th post on page 3. The context was "Tell me, how would the knights reach the wizards surrounded by the other wizards?" Now, I would only need to reach the ones with LOW faith, right? Because I could not kill them with calculated spells. You suggest that the 3 surrounding are the dead high faith Wizards. But you only said you had 2 originally. Therefore, I shall redirect the following statement to you:

"You, however, obviously are forgetting a lot of details."

Perhaps you are the incompetent one? And you claim to be so virtuous.

Lans Tartare
05-23-2001, 09:06 PM
First of all, Orlandu isn't a Holy Knight. He's a Holy Swordsman. Not all Swordsmen are knights, and not all knights are swordsman. If you go by the game definition, the knight and holy knight are two different classes, with different growth and attributes. Therefore they must not be the same thing.
Second of all, you are just saying that I changed my team. I admit that I had 2 in the team I posted. Now, where is it changed?
In response to your "quote" there, which you diced up:
"If those are 3 faiths ones, it would be impossible to kill them before the others reraise."
That was obviously a typo. As we all agreed, the high faith wizards will be dead by the end of knights' turn. The anticident of the word "them" is the word "ones" before the sentence. Thus, it must follow that the word "them" refers to the "ones". However, we have established that the high faith wizards will be dead. It must then follow that the "them" refers to the low faithed ones, which means the "ones" in that sentence refers to the low faithed wizards. if you had any logic, the conclusion should have been that a word "low" was left from in front of the word "faiths." In addition, there was no word "high" there, which means the faith can't simply refer to high faithed ones.
Lets assume the worst case scenario for the moment: I did write 3 high faith wizards in that sentence.
Tell me, how would that affect the outcome? The condition is still that I only need 1 status spell to disable your entire party, or 2 to kill it.
Third of all, my analysis is more complete than both of yours. This can be shown by looking at the number of factors missed. Thus, it must be more reliable.
I'm assuming that my status will hit? Of course it will. You told me that your knights have high faith. I said my wizard will have 84 faith. If you plug in the numbers, the % hit rate is above 90%, if not 100%. I will do an actual calculation if you try to deny that. Therefore it is very safe to assume your knights cannot dodge my status spells.
Go play Mlapan. The enemy team starts in a different section, opposite of yours. Thus, it would be impossible for your team to reach mine in 1 turn. The physical attack point is moot. In most maps, the two parties start in such a configuration that one can't reach the other with melee attacks in one turn. Also, even with the ones where you can reach the party itself in one turn, the characters act as blocks. It wouldn't be possible to reach the other side.
As of now, the only conceivable situation where your knights have a chance to win is in one where your knights are in convenient reach, within 5 blocks away from my wizards, and where none of my wizards are surrounded. Of course, such a configuration doesn't exist in the FFT maps, therefore you can't win.

Jay Ayanami
05-26-2001, 01:44 AM
All of Orlandu's abilities are knight abilities...

More later...

Mwork
05-26-2001, 02:00 AM
"not all knights are swordsman"

.....That just doesn't sound right.

Lans Tartare
05-26-2001, 02:47 PM
All of Orlandu's abilities are knight abilities...
That is only true if you give him Battle Skill, and nothing else. I don't know what you are thinking, but there are no long range Battle Skills.

.....That just doesn't sound right.
Actually, most medieval knights were known more for the lance than the sword. It's much more efficient. For attacking in short range, a lot preferred the mace, as it damages armored foes much more readily, especially with the boosted crushing power of the horse.

Another thing, not all swordsmen are knights.

By the way, Mwork, you seem to be right about the Sunken State one. Attack does activate Sunken State while Singing. I've yet to check dancing, though, but it's safe to assume that it works that way as well.
I concede the Dancer v. Lancer argument to you, nothing else, though.

Mwork
05-26-2001, 05:16 PM
I was referring to the Knights in the game. Swords are all they use, except when they use any of the "Equip ----" abilities.

"Not all swordsmen are knights."
No argument there. :)

Lans Tartare
05-27-2001, 02:07 AM
If you are going by the game definition, Holy Knight and Knight are two distinct jobs, which no shared abilities.

Mwork
05-27-2001, 03:48 AM
"That is only true if you give him Battle Skill, and nothing else."

Stasis Sword, Crush Punch, Split Punch, Lightning Stab, and Holy Explosion are Holy Knight abilities. Hellcry Punch, Icewolf Bite, Blastar Punch, and Shellbust Stab are Divine Knight abilities. Dark Sword and Night Sword are Dark Knight abilities.


Those abilities still belong to Knights. Special Knights, but Knights nonetheless. All those special Knights are still Knights, only more holy or divine or dark than normal ones.





Except the Heaven and Hell Knights. Those two should not have those Jobs. They can't equip heavy armor or even regular swords, for crying out loud. >_< They should've been Heaven and Hell Mages or something like that.

Lans Tartare
05-27-2001, 06:41 AM
They are Holy Knight and Divine Knight abilities, not Knight abilities. Lets look at some examples, real life and Tactics, where having something as part of a name doesn't mean it is really so.

Tactics:
Angel of Death-gee, it must be an angel. Actually, it's a Zodiac Demon.
ArchAngel-see above.

Now, lets look at real life examples.
Intel Pentium III-Pentium III does not equal Pentium. Pentium, however, is part if its name.
Microsoft Internet Explorer-Is it the internet in itself? Is it some kind of person going to a farawar and unknown land to explore?

Lets step off the really obvious and infinite examples and actually examine the classes themselves. Are Holy Knights and Divine Knights really Knights? No, Knights, Holy Knights, and Divine Knights belong to 3 distinct jobs, with no overlayering abilities whatsoever. According to the game itself, they are separate entities, not to be confused with each other.

Mwork
05-27-2001, 06:46 AM
Three separate Jobs, yes, but still Knights.

Lans Tartare
05-27-2001, 02:27 PM
You have just admitted that they are separate. Thus, they must be different things in FFT. In other words, they are not interchangeable terms.

Mwork
05-28-2001, 07:49 AM
"You have just admitted that they are separate."

It doesn't really matter.


They are all still Knights.

Lans Tartare
05-28-2001, 02:52 PM
It doesn't matter if Knight is part of their name. They are different from the Knight job, which means you can insert one into the place of another. They are two distinct things, not to be confused with one another.
Therefore Holy Knights are not Knights. They are Holy Knights.

Mwork
05-28-2001, 07:44 PM
A Holy Knight is a devoted Knight who has been baptized by the church.

A devoted Knight who has been baptized by the church, but still a Knight.




But I'm gonna stop arguing now. There's no point to this whole thing, and I think you'd agree Lans.


Besides, it's pretty off-topic

Lans Tartare
05-29-2001, 01:47 AM
A Holy Knight is a separate job than the Knight. This much we can all agree on. Thus, a Holy Knight is not a Knight. It must be a separate entity.

Mwork
05-29-2001, 03:45 AM
"I'm gonna stop arguing now."

Notti
06-08-2001, 06:36 AM
Anyone interested in a related off shoot thread, click here (http://www.ffnet.net/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000586.html) :cool:

Mwork
06-08-2001, 06:59 AM
Haha.

Well, Lans, there you go. The great Notti has analyzed the two teams, and he thought the Knights would win.

I wonder if that Ice person is also an EoFF forumer, and why he/she didn't even mention my Lancers. Are they that useless against the Knights? :(

Notti
06-08-2001, 10:17 AM
Now, now...this battle isn't over just yet :) My post above was pretty much a stream of consciousness post and I probably glossed over a perfectly acceptable counter strategy for the Wizs. Too bad both teams are so homogenous that they become weaker... but at least it makes it much easier to imagine their fight.

Mwork
06-14-2001, 01:38 AM
So then, Notti, have you come up with a good counter-strategy for the Wizards?

Jay Ayanami
06-20-2001, 06:14 AM
Well, I left this discussion because, quite frankly, I was disgusted by the mentality of the people who "debated" within. I do not refer to everyone within the thread. Just a few.

At any rate, I am back, at least for the time being.

I cannot view the link that Nottie posted. Can someone copy and paste the meat of it here? I would appreciate it.

Mwork
06-20-2001, 09:38 AM
The link isn't the problem. It seems it's the site that's not working. :mad2:

I guess I'll have to try to post here what was posted over there from memory. :)


Well, the site was ffnet.net, I believe. Over at their FFT board, a person posted Jay's and Lans' teams and asked the people there which party was the better.

It got replies, some were pretty good, others (like the one from that darklaguna person) just weren't any good. If he's reading this, don't get upset. I didn't mean it that way. :)




Well anyway, the one that stood out was Notti's post. This is pretty much what he said:

Since Jay listed several accessories while posting his all-Knights' party, Notti picked the Sprint Shoes. This way, when the battle would start, one Knight could cast CT4 (I belive) Doubt Faith. This would only hit the Wizards, because with t he Sprint Shoes and Excalibur, the Knights would have their CT so it wouldn't hit them. The high-faithed Wizzes would be no good for a while. Then, Shell and Reraise on the Knights. Now the Knights would have to go to the Wizards, and use their two Knight Swords to Speed & Mind Break the Wizards. Math Skill wouldn't be a threat, and Draw Out wouldn't be much a problem with high HP, Shell, and Reraise. So, once every Wizard is at 1 Speed and 1 MA, the Knights would easily kill them. But then they would have probably had one Wizard surrounded by the others, so that one wouldn't get killed (wuss :)). So, the Knights would just have to stay away from that Draw-Outing Wizard, all the while calculating Pray Faith on her. It will hit, eventually. At which point, that Wizard would be toast.

But, as Notti said, the Wizards could still have a chance to win.

I honestly don't see how, but Notti said it, so it's probably true. :)

Jay Ayanami
06-20-2001, 09:48 PM
Thanks for posting that, Mwork.

I still contend that one of my Knights was Orlandu, as it is clear that he is superior to a normal Knight, in which case, he would obliterate the reamining Wizard.

Lans Tartare
06-24-2001, 05:37 AM
Well, Notti, I have to point out some things in your analysis:

1. you are assuming the wizards wouldn't do anything while the knights close in. Which has greater range? Draw Out or Battle Skill? Which is easier to hit?

Chirajiraden- 30*MA (probably 23)=690*2/3=460.
Kikuijimoji - 16*MA (probably 23)=368*2/3=244.

By the way, look at his counter ability. It's Counter, with a 97% change of countering against a wizard attack.

Much less 1 dimensional than what the thought you've apparently given, isn't it?

Jay Ayanami
06-25-2001, 07:51 AM
Rude, as usual, Lans.

Of course, "Doubt Faith" will occur instantly...

And I can heal easily...and I have more HP than that...

Britt
07-02-2001, 11:46 PM
Alright. It is quite clear that all of you are very skilled strategists. I would ask, however, that you all stick to strategy and not integrate insults into your discussions. That goes for everyone. :) Alright? Thanks, and have fun. It's been neat reading this. =D

Lans Tartare
07-03-2001, 03:07 AM
That was one person's damage. Don't forget, since all your units charge at a speed of 18, and mine at 11, that means all of mine will go at once, and the same for yours.
Thus, multiply the number by the appropriate number of wizards.

Chris Lionheart
07-05-2001, 05:52 AM
Seems like people are losing the joy of a challenge in a game. I was gonna ask but you could only get that near the end of the game, but then someone would say "Hey if you have the patience and time I would do it." If you use that team and you do Jay there's no challenge in the game and it would seem boring to me. Also whats "Level thee holy?"

Raistlin
07-08-2001, 06:37 PM
Chris: It's Level Three Holy. With the Math Skill, you can hit allies or enemies with known spells by using the numbers in their stats or position(you could hit them by their CT, Level, Height, Exp, all by Prime number, 3, 4, or 5). It's a really powerful skill for a mage character that makes them really powerful when fighting most battles. I rarely use it, actually, but I try everything in a game once pretty much.

Now, if you don't understand my explanation, someone else will do a better job of it than me.:)

Blackmage
07-14-2001, 10:47 PM
I've already posted here, I think (I'm not gonna take the timeto find it, though...). But, I believe that Monks are the best job class "in conjunction to other classes." First off, with their basic skills alone, they can annihilate your team of Knights with Earth Slash; the knights can't equip the Gaia Gear, but the monks can, leaving them to absorb the attack when they're in the way. And I also find that Calculate makes the best secondary ability slot for them along with a couple of spells of all sorts. Besides, when you get down to it, they cause 999 damage with their physical attacks at Lv. 99, outdoing any of your knight's swords. So... :p.

Jay Ayanami
07-22-2001, 11:00 PM
Everybody, I repeat, everybody knows about the Monks with Two Hands. Yes, everyone knows that they do 999 damage too.

On the other hand, no one really thinks past "whoa that is a lot of damage".

999 will overkill on any non-boss unit. 250 (Excalibur) + 650 (Chaos Blade) come to 900 HP, which is more than enough to kill any human unit. With Earth Slash, my people must be in a line to be targeted. Because my Knights have haste, they will be faster than your Monks. Furthermore, because you have the Gaia Gear (I think it is "Earth Clothes" in the English translation), you cannot equip the Chameleon Robe, which would absorb my holy attacks. Considering I do 999 damage per Holy spell with my best unit under good circumstances, I think all your Monks would die, and all my people would get healed (gotta love those Excaliburs). So, by the time that unit's CT comes up (can you say "Level Three Holy?), undoubtedly before yours, you will be dead.

Analyzing your strategy, you bank off my Knights being in a straight line, and you also assume I would not simply cast Level Three Raise 2. You also assume that your Monks would be in that line so as to be healed, and that they would only have sustained critical - not lethal - damage.

So basically my team runs over yours, and easily.

Blackmage
07-23-2001, 05:45 PM
True, 999 damage is unneeded on any non-boss unit. And, actually, your idea with your Chameleon Robe sounds better to the degree except that there is only ONE Excalibur. And you could turn the tables with the Calculator abilities by using them to your advantage. Most definitely, you could do that. But, then again, I still find the Earth Slash to be quite effective, 'cause it has much more range than any Knight attack (unless you count Orlandu as a knight, then it'd have the same effect as Holy Explosion.), and I really don't need the Gaia Gear/Earth Clothes, for then the Calculator abilties would come in with Cure 3. Well actually, here's the way I'd view my battling from the get-go...

Equipping: Chameleon Robe, 108 Gems on all (but I don't think there's more than one of those, but geez, I haven't REALLY played in forever...). First turns: (insert suitable Calc. abl. here) Pray Faith (making my members do more damage with magic attacks and healing, thus absorbing even more of your Lv.3 Holy), (insert suitable Calc. abl. here) Haste (Which would, duh, make me faster), (insert suitable Calc. abl. here) Wall (Making all of your attacks do less damage). Then, I'd whip out Earth Slash, Bolt 3/Fire 3/Ice 3/Death w/ Calc. (108 Gems boosts all elemental attacks), and heal when necessary. Then, if I feel really ugly, then I'd whip out the Oracle magic and make the fight really unfair, but I'm usually against using statuses anyway, unless of course, you decide to take care of that early on with equipping. And...say hello to Mr. Hamedo for me...hehehe...which could cancel your attack and let me attack, and with my Monk's power, kill you or at least majorly injure you before you could attack back. One last thing...Move+3 would be on all my monks, too. Oh, yeah, and if I'm feeling REALLY MEAN AND UGLY, then I'd cast Doubt Faith on EVERYONE, making your Knights depend on their low-ranged swords, while my Monks could still use Wave Fist and Earth Slash.
Please tell me what you think of my partially updated strategy. I'm participating in this to become a slightly better FFT player with you sorta teaching me by correcting me like you just did. I'll haveta thank you sometime when I get it just right.

Jay Ayanami
07-27-2001, 10:38 AM
Note: You can get more than one Excalibur by equipping "catch" in the Deep Dungeon. So all my people have Excaliburs.

My win will mostly be determined by the fact that I am faster than you. I have haste on my from the get-go. You only have it after you cast it. But you would not get a chance to do so. Turn one, I have only to cast a spell (other than Holy) to target you, and it will kill you, especially since you have pray faith.

Blackmage
07-27-2001, 04:54 PM
'Course, you could kill me easily but that's IF I cast Pray Faith; although, all I'd haveta do is add on the Equip Armor support ability and give all my guys the Reflect Mail, which would render your Calculator attacks useless. That'd leave you to use no magic spells on me. The only advantage you'd have would be your speed, for I think the Knights have a faster Speed rating from the get-go anyway and then you have your precious Haste on top of that. I'd also have Feather Mantles. Hamedo would be on all my guys, making them attack you before they attack me, which would render you a little defenseless as long as it works. All you could do is use your Break Arts and Break my stuff with your main job command. While I could still heal and have long-range attacks. Then for movement, I'd have Move+3 on all of them making your speed advantage less of one, for I could move more on one turn than you could. Counter that for me. (Man, too bad Square can't make a game that uses your save files from FFT or other FF's and then fight another team...that'd be a cool idea for PS2...and run that more-than-one-Excalibur thing by me again, 'cause I could use one for Beowulf on my file...)

I believe the only way anything could get done around here would end up being statuses. I hate using statuses, except for positive ones that affect my party. If you want to start using statuses, then I'm through. This's as good as I'm gonna get with this whole thing, and I'm not about to play the game through again to remember what item did this, that and the other thing.

~Zodiac~
07-28-2001, 07:43 PM
It's a very good job for if you start the game all over, you have more HP, more power, so the battles are easier, but later in the game (this is my point of view) it is not THE best, personally I prefer a Samurai, Lancer or Squire (almost equel to a Knight though :p ) but they have more functionel abilities then a Knight, a knight can only break armor (and more of those things) Samurai has: Katana's that can release spirits, very handy in battle.
Lancer has: Jump abilities, almost as strong as phisical hits and if you have a lancer who is master, then you can jump almost all over the field.
Squire has: Basic Skills, more for if you started the game all over, but later in the game the Squire is less effective.
BUT, you are correct, I still use Knights, they have lots of HP, lots of Strength and they can wear a shield, but, it's not THE best job there is.....

Greetz,

Evan :)

Jstncloud
07-29-2001, 01:11 AM
http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/avatar.php?userid=740&dateline=986713549




I dont know about you all but knights rule i like the two sword ability it rocks but i wouldnt know much i used a game shark HeHe...:mad:



:magus: Jstn

Jay Ayanami
08-04-2001, 10:03 AM
No one is getting the point.

Knights are not good because of their intrinsic job abilities. I never argued that. They are the best because of what they can equip and because of their resulting HP totals, etc.

They have crappy abilities, yes, but that does not matter when you can use Math as a secondary skill. Knights are the best. There is no argument.

*laughs*

I have discussed this several times with many people. I can just do a Level 3 Raise 2 whenever I need to ressurrect. Or a Level 3 Holy to heal and hurt my enemy at the same time. I am not sure, but I don't think Reflect Mail works on calculated attacks. At any rate, I can always just use my physical attacks. I can just let one person stay behind and heal the ones you manage to kill. At one point or another, I will be able to strike. And you will die. Try to ressurrect, and you waste a turn not killing me. Meanwhile I can still use Raise 2 and Holy. Besides, my people can move the 8 squares that Earth Slash can affect!

Blackmage
08-05-2001, 03:33 AM
As far as I'm concerned, you're mainly saying that Excalibur is the best weapon in the game, the Calculator ability is the best in the game, and that Haste is the best status in the game. This is all that I have gathered. You're basing everything on those three items. While I'm trying using the Monk's abilities to my advantage, you're using the Calculator's Math Skill to your advantage. And so, I now bow down in respect; to a certain point, however. You should consider changing the title of this thread to "Excalibur is the best weapon, and I am ready to defend that statement." Just food for thought. If you're gonna say that Knights are the best class with other abilities, don't make them depend on one weapon. That's just what I think. If you aren't going to make them depend on one weapon, I sure hope you pick the Monk class as the best class with other abilities because they are. And as Big Ogre Umaro said before: "I don't have any fun when my characters are too powerful." This is just getting boring now...*shrugs* *thinks you should change the name of the thread to "Excalibur-Equipped knights are the best job class in conjunction with other classes, and I am prepared to defend that statement."*

IF the Equip Sword ability could be used to equip Excalibur on anybody, then, yeesh, they'd all be able to kick butt. Even Summoners with Short Charge, Excalibur, and Calc. could beat your knights.

But, heck, just have 5 female people, all with Chantages, and then I could call it a day...

Raistlin
08-05-2001, 04:03 AM
I've noticed something:

Jay: there's one flaw in your plan. What if his monks aren't at a level which you can target them with math skill? If they are, and he moves them strategically to avoid certain levels, and he starts with 0 Exp, you'd have to depend entirely on CT to hit any of them(you might get about two, but no more probably). He could then have the rest(we'll say three) of his monks cast Lvl 3 spells on your Knights, most likely killing them.

Most jobs that could get in a turn before your Knights get in two could win using the strategy above. However, you could counter that by switching your levels around(some prime, some divisible by two, etc.). But you already said all at Lvl 99.:p

Jay Ayanami
08-05-2001, 04:15 AM
No.

No, no, no.

I chose my words carefully. Knights are the best job class (and I did note that this was excluding special job classes). Knights are the ONLY, I repeat, ONLY unit that can use KNIGHT swords.

I was right in saying I meant Knights.

Calculators suck because they have a crappy speed base. ANY job class can equip a secondary job class, and I noted in the first thread that it was the best "in conjunction with othere job classes".

The ability to USE a knight sword is an INTRINSIC ability OF the Knight. Therefore, it is like saying Monks can not use their own innate abilities. Furthermore, you cannot argue that I am saying an ITEM is the best, firstly because I am not, but more importantly because it would be like saying your Monks can not equip items.

Chantage is easy enough to deal with. You must remember that my attack will hit ALL your people, killing you in one turn. At any rate, Chantage does not ressurrect you with full health.

Raistlin:

There is no flaw. Sooner or later, I would be able to target his character. They are all the same unit, so their CT would be the same. Anyhow, if he planned on doing ANYthing to me, then I could use EXP as a target, and there is always height to use. Most people here prefer to use level 99 characters for the obvious reason that they are the strongest (generally speaking). It does not matter though. I will, in all liklihood, be able to target him in some way or another. If he targets me, he will probably not kill me; please note first that I get my turn before he does; please note secondly that Monks are NOT magic users; please note thirdly that I have the best armor. There are more reasons, but I don't think it would be reasonable to state them all.

Game, set, match.

Oh yeah...I have haste, and I have yet to see a team that could have their turn before me AND guarantee enough turns to kill me completely.

And that I am all on level 99 is not some "trick" that you figured out. Its just that there is no reason for me to have it any other way.

Jstncloud
08-05-2001, 04:42 PM
Hey you guys argue too dang much who cares who is better than who you will not be able to battle each other on fft unless a new version comes out so stop belly aiching aight. But if i had a logical comint i would go with nights with the two sword abiliy and a more powerful sword.

Jstn :magus:

( Cid has spoken heed hi words )




"Wish there was a way to battle each other than th fft game would be much much more exciting!"

Blackmage
08-06-2001, 06:14 PM
Well, let me just compare the baseline stats...

Knight (Ramza)

HP: 356
MP: 97
Move: 3
Jump: 3
Speed: 11
AT: 18
MA: 11

Monk (Ramza)

HP: 400
MP: 97
Move: 3
Jump: 4
Speed: 13 *
AT: 20 *
MA: 11

So, in theory, Monks have more Speed and Attack power without any equipping at all than your Knights do. So, a group of 5 female Monks with the Setiemson and Power Sleeve, along with Magic Attack UP, Move+2 (since they can't have Move+3), and Hamedo, would be able to defeat your Knights on account of speed and range! All 5 female Monks would go first and use Earth Slash or Lv. 3 Flare! And so...die. If you want to play with Haste, I'll gladly play...hehehe...

Chris Lionheart
08-06-2001, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
No.

No, no, no.

I chose my words carefully. Knights are the best job class (and I did note that this was excluding special job classes). Knights are the ONLY, I repeat, ONLY unit that can use KNIGHT swords.




Really what about Equip Sword?

Black Mage
08-06-2001, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Chris Lionheart



Really what about Equip Sword?

You are missing it, a Knight sword is not an ordinary sword. A Knight sword is a sword like Excalibur and Ragnorak. They can't be used with "Equip Sword" and I believe only the Knight class (aside from special characters) can use them.

HugiEugie
08-06-2001, 09:06 PM
I do think the knights class is pretty darn awesome. I especially liked the way he looked and his sleek white cape. Also, the exclusiveness of the all mighty knight sword to that class only made it a better class, since the chaos blade and excalibur simply rocked! However, I didn't like the break ability of the knight. It was useful SOMEtimes, actually, rarely. First off, you had to be close to the enemy, and when I was right next to them, I figured that it was better to slash at them and bring them even closer to death's door rather than break their equipment.

I think a better way of using this ability was to equip it on a chemist or a mediator. With their guns, they were able to break the armor of people that were way farther away. This helped because guns didn't do that much damage and getting rid of their armor did more damage than the gun. But for the knight's case, it's a little different because the knight's attack can do more damage.

Another thing is that by the middle of the game, I always threw away all my normal characters and began to use only special characters. I always used either Agrias, TG Cid, Beowulf, Meladoul, Mustadio, Worker 8, Reis (she has very high HP level!) and Ramza of course. Agrias, TG Cid, Beowulf, Meladoul, and Ramza are able to use knight swords and armor in their first class, so it sorta got rid of the usefulness of knights, plus, their jobs had better abilities like sword magic, all swordskill, holy sword, guts, and Meladoul's ability, which was much like the knights but it had a much better range and it looked a lot cooler!

In the beginning, the knights class was useful, but as time progressed, the usefulness died out.

Kaeru
08-07-2001, 05:41 PM
I'm just guessing that Jay Ayanami here is using some GS power. Please...you know that he must have 99 of all items...he was so confident till Mwok told him about how many Maximillians there were in the game :D Never named what eq he has that's *normal*, either. Don't tell us now, it's useless ^_^

Just go for the Samurai/Lancer pick. Knights can only be good so much. Sure, the knight swords are nice, but I'll leave that to Ramza or some other special character that can normally use it. I'm usually not too keen to change a class just to use a good sword with useless abilities (man, did they suck).

Plus, Lancers can hit enemies two squares away, to boot. While you cast your Holies, I'll be safe in the skies...

Raistlin
08-07-2001, 10:09 PM
Jay:

I was not specifically talking about his monks. I was using any class as an example. I also said "moved strategically" so you could not use height. Your knights get in a turn right away; you MIGHT get two of your knights to target him on the first round using CT and the height that they started on, killing 2, 3 max. Then, the person that challenges you has 2-3 units where he can target you by your units' level. If his units were leveled up as wizards, you are dead.
There is no "sooner or later." Your characters could be dead before the first round is over.

Jay Ayanami
08-09-2001, 03:21 AM
Before I go on, let me make it perfectly clear (and the comment which I am about to respond to absolutely does not deserve a response; it is nearly an insult to everyone's intelligence) that my team of Knights does NOT require the Maximillian or the best armor. To accuse me of using a Gameshark is a copout of an argument; you believe that I could not possibly beat you unless I sharked my game, which I did not. All I need are the Excaliburs, and you can get as many of those as you like in the game without using the duplication trick or a Gameshark.

Don't waste my time (or anyone else's) with that crap.

Kaeru
08-09-2001, 05:54 AM
FFT2 could be very successful if it included an online mode(NOT ONLINE EXCLUSIVE), to play against your friends...Petetion, anyone? :D

We would then finally know what the best class is...whatever that class may be.

Don Quixote
08-13-2001, 08:05 PM
Do us a favor, Jay, and don't defend the knights. You make them look worse than they actually are. I'm currently addressing the team you used on the first page. If you updated it, I didn't look for it. I just replied to the first.

That team is so bad, and 1 wizard can destroy it.

Just use this unit:
Wizard
Brave 97 Faith 84

Math Skill
MP Switch
Magic Attack Up
Move-MP Up

Wizard Rod
N/A
Thief Hat
Black Clothes
Sentiemson (I think that's the one that gives Auto-Haste)

Even if you choose Sprint Shoes, this wizard will go before them. Since you have no evasion whatsoever, all that's needed is 1 spell to knock your entire team out. Just do L3Stop, whichever is preferred, and you can't do anything. I forgot whether knights and wizards have 10 or 11 base speed, but in the former case, the knights will have CT 91 on the first turn, and 92 in the latter case. In the latter, the wizard will have to use Stop then Flare, but in the former, she can simply use Petrify and get it over with.

Using only 1 class, especially with only 1 setup pattern, is the epitome of stupidity. You've exhibited that quite well, and boasted about it?

Ramza7K
08-13-2001, 11:05 PM
i havnt read every post here but the best job class is knight depending on what abilities and items you equip.

For example, if you give ramza 2 sword ability you can equip Chaos Blade and Excalibur, which gives him Auto regen and auto haste :)

GeneralLeoLives
08-14-2001, 12:25 AM
5 ninjas could cast almost any powerful attack or status spells and kill you. Just what I think. I will admit I don't know all the exact stats of the game. Feel free to prove me absolutely wrong. But even you admitted ninjas would be quicker than you. And if they all cast status spells, than all your guys would be stopped, stoned or frogged. Just an idea, no one get angry. I could be quite wrong.

Don Quixote
08-14-2001, 12:53 AM
Ninjas, I believe, have either a -30% or -40% MA difference from Squires. What that translates into is that their MA is around 6-7. That's not really good for hitting status spells.

GeneralLeoLives
08-14-2001, 01:12 AM
But if all 5 cast it wouldn't at least one get a good one off?

Garland
08-14-2001, 05:31 AM
Knights are a good class in that they give some lasting power the characters. Their high hp and defense make them one of the harder classes to kill. Lancers too share this trait. As far as that goes, it comes down to whether you like spears or swords, and that's a personal choice. I do believe knights have one of the less used secondary skills, break. I don't think it's bad in its own right, but in the situations where break would be a good option, wouldn't you think steal is even better? Maybe that's just me. IMHO what puts the knights above their other well armored cousins, is that they have no MA penalties. My favorite skill set is Math, and it's nice being able to have a near perfect magic user who can survive an attack. Theoretically, they can use the strongest weapon in the game, the Chaos blade, though I have yet to find it. Same with Maxmillian armor. Oh, and I should mention, there's only one legitimate Excalibur in the game, from Orlandu. I forgot who said there were many. So basically, they're great because they have no MA penalties, great AT, and the hit points to live. Early in the game before your characters are walking death machines, simply surviving is a victory in itself.

Jay Ayanami
08-15-2001, 01:21 AM
"Do us a favor, Jay, and don't defend the knights. You make them look worse than they actually are. I'm currently addressing the team you used on the first page."

Sorry, but here goes...

"If you updated it, I didn't look for it. I just replied to the first. "

I didn't.

"That team is so bad, and 1 wizard can destroy it."

That remains to be seen.

"Even if you choose Sprint Shoes, this wizard will go before them. Since you have no evasion whatsoever, all that's needed is 1 spell to knock your entire team out. Just do L3Stop, whichever is preferred, and you can't do anything. I forgot whether knights and wizards have 10 or 11 base speed, but in the former case, the knights will have CT 91 on the first turn, and 92 in the latter case. In the latter, the wizard will have to use Stop then Flare, but in the former, she can simply use Petrify and get it over with."

First of all, faith has been, in my experience, more of a determining factor in whether or not a status spell hits. Only 2 of my 5 units were trained as magic users. The other ones are Orlandu and 2 trained as physical attackers. Therefore, there is no conclusive way to say that a spell such as Stop would hit.

Knights and Wizards both have a base speed of 8, by the way, which is way off what you were thinking.

"Using only 1 class, especially with only 1 setup pattern, is the epitome of stupidity. You've exhibited that quite well, and boasted about it?"

Whether you call me stupid or not makes no difference to me. Having all of the same class has served me well and it streamlines my team. Though my actual team does use a Summoner (useful for beating the game), I found it easier to just have 5 Knights. And I do believe that the 5 Knights could beat any team mentioned thus far.

Stupidity is not defending a team you believe in. Stupidity is calling someone else stupid when you don't even know them. You might also call someone who puts a question mark at the end of a declarative sentence stupid, but I would not know.

P. S. And don't bother calling it a rhetorical question, because it was not. Since when is a question mark used solely for inflection?

P. P. S. Another thing that hit me after I had posted this was that your thesis which stated on Wizard could kill my team does not even work by your own logic. Since when can a Wizard use Level 3 Stop AND Level 3 Flare in one turn? Oh yeah, it can't.

So quick to point the finger of stupidity at others when you yourself provide for a much finer example. "Ful wys is he that kan hymselven knowe", my friend.

GeneralLeoLives
08-15-2001, 01:34 AM
If they were trained as wizards why couldn't they status all your guys before you got a turn?

Jay Ayanami
08-15-2001, 02:10 AM
Just because they are trained does not mean there is a 100% chance of hitting. Simple as that.

GeneralLeoLives
08-15-2001, 02:27 AM
Of course not 100%, but they could all hit and then my team would win. I was only trying to get you to admit that your team could lose, a fair amount of the time, say 50%. I won't argue what class is best because I think every class has an advanateg and you can only debate class if you debate straight class without benefit of any other.

Don Quixote
08-15-2001, 04:09 AM
Only 2 of my 5 units were trained as magic users. The other ones are Orlandu and 2 trained as physical attackers. Therefore, there is no conclusive way to say that a spell such as Stop would hit.
Of course, it's a wizard. At a 84 Faith, it'll have a 80% of higher chance of hitting, usually. Since you've talked as each Knight doing a great amount of damage with Holy, it's only natural to assume that you either had a naturally mid-high faith unit (60-70 faith), or had artificially raised it. It's also reflected in your replies to Lans Tartare. You seem to go along with your spells hitting with high % chance.

Knights and Wizards both have a base speed of 8, by the way, which is way off what you were thinking.
At L99? I don't know what kind of game you played. It's either 10 or 11. Actually, now that I think about it, 9 might also be a possibility.

And I do believe that the 5 Knights could beat any team mentioned thus far.
*Laughs at your overwhelming confidence and stupidity.*
Since you have no physical evasion nor magical evasion, any team that consists of precise, physical attack, and low faith, can decimate it. I merely used the wizard as an example of how badly your team is formed.

Since when can a Wizard use Level 3 Stop AND Level 3 Flare in one turn
Since when can your knights move with the status "Stop" on them? The wizard is going to get 3-4 turns before the status wears off the knight.

Since I elected only to use 1 unit that time, you've shown really nothing about whether your team is actually good. This time, I will show you a team of 5, from 1 class, that's going to demonlish yours.

Wizard
97 Brave 84 Faith

Math Skill
MP Switch
Magic Attack Up
Move-MP Up

Wizard Rod
N/A
Thief Hat
Wizard Robe
Sentiemson

Wizard x2
97 Brave 3 Faith

Draw Out
Hamedo
Two Swords
Teleport

Wizard Rod
Wizard Rod
Flash Hat
Wizard Robe
Chantage

Wizard x2
97 Brave 3 Faith

Talk Skill
Hamedo
Two Swords
Teleport

Wizard Rod
Wizard Rod
Flash Hat
Wizard Robe
Chantage

First thing to do is lower the Faith of the ones with 3 to 0. Now you have no chance of landing any spells on them. Second is raising their Brave to 100. Good luck landing a physical hit now. The especially good thing? I can invite your units with fairly good success, due to the 28 MA that the 2 wizards with Talk Skill have. Range attack is not an option, and melee attack isn't either.
For one thing, my high faith wizard can just get her turn, then cast L3Flare, which would do next to nothing to my wizards, if it even hits. It will, however, demolish your knights. Second option is casting L3Don't Act, which is going to hit your knights with much higher accuracy than it will for my wizards.

By the way, I make no claim to this team's invincibility. In fact, a group of gunners or archers with battle skill can defeat it fairly easily.

You talk as if you've just proven some sort of superiority for your knights. In fact, that's not true at all. You've not even proven, with any convincing evidence, that you can beat my 1 Wizard. Perhaps the reason is so that you have room to lie? One moment, the spells won't hit because you'll have 3 faith, and the next, your spells will hit with 100% efficiency because your knights have 84 faith? Lay down your stats.

By the way, Wizards don't have any higher MA growth than the other classes. Only Mimes have higher MA growth, out of the normal ones, of course. Leo, your ninjas will probably successfully hit 3-5 times. However, the chances that they'll cover all of the enemy units is not high at all. I believe those odds are over 1000 to 1.

By the way Jay, you have no talent as a commander either. If you did proceed to command the battle against the previous 5 wizard team (not mine) the way you described, you would lose very badly. Notti's strategy is what salvaged your team.

GeneralLeoLives
08-15-2001, 04:21 AM
So if my first three hit I could kill the rest of the knights with magic. I would not win every time, but I Think I would win at least 50% of the time.

Jay Ayanami
08-16-2001, 01:41 AM
"Of course, it's a wizard. At a 84 Faith, it'll have a 80% of higher chance of hitting, usually. Since you've talked as each Knight doing a great amount of damage with Holy, it's only natural to assume that you either had a naturally mid-high faith unit (60-70 faith), or had artificially raised it."

That is incorrect. Firstly, I stated that my Knights worst at magic only did about 150 points of damage. With the force of my whole team that makes for 150+150+250+250+250=950. Which is more damage than you would ever need to do against a regular unit. Magic damage is more dependent on magic attack power, in my experience. And I allowed myself access to a Gengi Glove or Magic Glove, both of which would aid in that, without the use of high faith.

"It's also reflected in your replies to Lans Tartare. You seem to go along with your spells hitting with high % chance."

No, you misinterpreted what I said. I said that since there is a possibility, you cannot rule it out, even if it is a small possibility.

"At L99? I don't know what kind of game you played. It's either 10 or 11. Actually, now that I think about it, 9 might also be a possibility."

"*Laughs at your overwhelming confidence and stupidity.*"

Anyone with half a brain will tell you that you can learn little to nothing about a person from what they say online. To be so arrogant so as to assume you can qualify me as stupid from what you acrue from my posts is ignorant and far more stupid than you may think I am.

"Since you have no physical evasion nor magical evasion, any team that consists of precise, physical attack, and low faith, can decimate it. I merely used the wizard as an example of how badly your team is formed. "

As I said before, it is impossible to say whether or not such a status attack would hit or not. Status attacks are iffy at best.

"Since when can your knights move with the status "Stop" on them? The wizard is going to get 3-4 turns before the status wears off the knight."

ASSUMING your Wizard hit EVERY SINGLE Knight. And a wise man once said that assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.

"Since I elected only to use 1 unit that time, you've shown really nothing about whether your team is actually good. This time, I will show you a team of 5, from 1 class, that's going to demonlish yours."

Personally, I would think that this should allow for further editing on my team, but it does not matter. You could never say that there is a 100% possiblity or even a good possibility that Level 3 Stop would definitely hit.

"Wizard
97 Brave 84 Faith

Math Skill
MP Switch
Magic Attack Up
Move-MP Up

Wizard Rod
N/A
Thief Hat
Wizard Robe
Sentiemson

Wizard x2
97 Brave 3 Faith

Draw Out
Hamedo
Two Swords
Teleport

Wizard Rod
Wizard Rod
Flash Hat
Wizard Robe
Chantage

Wizard x2
97 Brave 3 Faith

Talk Skill
Hamedo
Two Swords
Teleport

Wizard Rod
Wizard Rod
Flash Hat
Wizard Robe
Chantage

First thing to do is lower the Faith of the ones with 3 to 0. Now you have no chance of landing any spells on them. Second is raising their Brave to 100. Good luck landing a physical hit now. The especially good thing? I can invite your units with fairly good success, due to the 28 MA that the 2 wizards with Talk Skill have. Range attack is not an option, and melee attack isn't either.
For one thing, my high faith wizard can just get her turn, then cast L3Flare, which would do next to nothing to my wizards, if it even hits. It will, however, demolish your knights. Second option is casting L3Don't Act, which is going to hit your knights with much higher accuracy than it will for my wizards."

First of all, Flare is not too powerful an attack, but I can see that this is one of your few options. One Flare attack will not kill my units. Sorry. Range is an option because you cannot invite someone too far away. You've only proven that if a calculated status spell hits every one of my characters, you could win. And more often than not, calculated spells do NOT hit every unit.

"You talk as if you've just proven some sort of superiority for your knights. In fact, that's not true at all. You've not even proven, with any convincing evidence, that you can beat my 1 Wizard. Perhaps the reason is so that you have room to lie?"

I have never once lied in this debate. To suggest otherwise is a poor style of debate and unworthy of my time, or anyone else's.

"One moment, the spells won't hit because you'll have 3 faith, and the next, your spells will hit with 100% efficiency because your knights have 84 faith? Lay down your stats."

Knights still have theirs break abilities to rely on, but more importantly, there is Orlandu, who can attack with great effeciency at a distance. I could include Agrias - she is a Knight, too - but I think the discussion can rest at that.

"By the way, Wizards don't have any higher MA growth than the other classes. Only Mimes have higher MA growth, out of the normal ones, of course. Leo, your ninjas will probably successfully hit 3-5 times. However, the chances that they'll cover all of the enemy units is not high at all. I believe those odds are over 1000 to 1."

I never suggested this, so perhaps you should have addressed Leo before you ran your mouth...

"By the way Jay, you have no talent as a commander either. If you did proceed to command the battle against the previous 5 wizard team (not mine) the way you described, you would lose very badly. Notti's strategy is what salvaged your team."

One moment you criticize me for using all Knights, then you turn around and make a team of all Wizards. Don't be a hypocrite. It is disgusting to be so openly flaunting this double standard. As Mwork will testify, Notti's strategy was my own. Forgive me if I do not feel like posting every day. I have justification, persons such as yourself being at the top of the list.

Notti
08-31-2001, 01:45 AM
... I uploaded the post that I linked to awhile back, Jay. Check the FFT folder:

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/Lune_Dragoon/

Jay Ayanami
08-31-2001, 05:06 AM
I was not debating whether or not it was your own strategy; clearly, it is. However, I in the meantime had also thought of it, and mentioned that I had to Mwork.

Don Quixote
08-31-2001, 03:24 PM
With the force of my whole team that makes for 150+150+250+250+250=950. Which is more damage than you would ever need to do against a regular unit.
That's about 49 short of what a normal Tiamat of that level would have. It also doesn't take into account the fact that you can't always target everybody in a fight.

I said that since there is a possibility, you cannot rule it out, even if it is a small possibility.
What is the possibility? You rely on "possibility," but then talk as if the other team has no chance of winning. You are not only wrong, but also hypocritical. Tell me your faith, and I'll tell you exact what is this "possibility," if any at all.

Anyone with half a brain will tell you that you can learn little to nothing about a person from what they say online. To be so arrogant so as to assume you can qualify me as stupid from what you acrue from my posts is ignorant and far more stupid than you may think I am.
Yet another example of your overwhelming stupidity, or is it one that shows your lack of attention span? You just said you can learn nothing about a person from what he/she says online, then you proceed to say because of what I said online, I'm ignorant. Either you are practicing to be a hypocrite, you forgot what you just said, or you don't have half a brain.

As I said before, it is impossible to say whether or not such a status attack would hit or not. Status attacks are iffy at best.
Lets see.
0.84*x/100*(25+110)*4/3=1.512x, where X is your faith. That's not particularly low. Of course, you refuse to say your MA.

And a wise man once said that assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
Again, hyporcrisy. Your entire argument, and anything said in support of or against your team, have been based on assumptions. Every analysis until now, and after, have been based on assumptions. If you are going to argue assumptions get one nowhere, then it's impossible for you to say your team can't lose.

Personally, I would think that this should allow for further editing on my team, but it does not matter.
Go ahead and edit it. I don't see how this justify your editing, unless you want to say that a 1 wizard team is comparable to yours.

First of all, Flare is not too powerful an attack, but I can see that this is one of your few options.
Flare has a base damage of 46, and Holy has a base damage of 50. Interesting. That means there is around 100 difference between the damage Flare does and the damage Holy does. 46*25*0.84*x*4/3=12.99x, where X is your faith, which you refuse to say. Now I wonder why this is so.

Sorry. Range is an option because you cannot invite someone too far away.
Interesting you should mention range, because Invite has a much better range than melee attacks. Your magic isn't going to do anything to 4 of my units. I can make their faith 0 before you can land a Pray Faith on them. Unless, of course, you ignored my 4 low faith wizards out of convenience, in which case you might be able to use magic.

Orlandu, who can attack with great effeciency at a distance. I could include Agrias - she is a Knight, too
Those are not knights, nor are they even normal classes. In any case, Orlandu isn't even a knight. If you change their default class, you are not going to have 5 casts of magic.

Knights still have theirs break abilities to rely on
Go ahead. Put Hamedo on, oh, say, Orlandu. Raise his brave ot 100. Then, try to break something of his. See for yourself what's going to happen. I'll tell you right now the breaker is going to get cut down.

Don't be a hypocrite. It is disgusting to be so openly flaunting this double standard.
There is an old Chinese proverb: he who is a thief calls others thief first. I think this applies to you very well. I'm merely showing how badly made your team was.

Jay Ayanami
09-01-2001, 01:52 AM
"That's about 49 short of what a normal Tiamat of that level would have."

I suppose you will just change all your character's job classes to Taimat now? Oh wait, Taimat is not a regular job unit is it? That's right, it's a monster class.

Besides, my people do 999+ on most occassions; I give 950 as a low so as a) not to make a mistake b) not to get called out of it does not do more than 950 which has happened before c) make people shut up and not bother to argue the point. 950 is more than your wizards have; it is more than any regular unit will have.

"What is the possibility? You rely on "possibility," but then talk as if the other team has no chance of winning. You are not only wrong, but also hypocritical."

That is not hypocritical. Get a grasp on your vocabulary. You state that Stop WILL hit. By saying that it might not, I am being LOGICAL and more correct. You cannot counter that statement by calling me hypocritical. It is the logical counterpoint. It is not that hard. I could revise my team, as everyone has done so thus far, but I am confident that my team as I originally stated it would have a better than fair chance against the Wizard team.

"Tell me your faith, and I'll tell you exact what is this "possibility," if any at all."

I assume my faith was whatever it began as; I did not tamper with it at all during beating the game. I would check, but my saves were (of course) erased by my computer when I went to e-mail my saves to someone I know online who wanted to see my team. I would imagine, however, that I will be replaying the game during December, at which point, I will be happy to tell you what my faith is, exactly.

"Yet another example of your overwhelming stupidity, or is it one that shows your lack of attention span? You just said you can learn nothing about a person from what he/she says online, then you proceed to say because of what I said online, I'm ignorant. Either you are practicing to be a hypocrite, you forgot what you just said, or you don't have half a brain."

It's called reading, my friend. I did not call YOU stupid, but I called a behavior stupid. That is NOT the same thing. You may learn something about someone online; I don't rule out that possibility. But more often than not, a person is not who they seem from a few posts on a message board, a few messages over ICQ. I wish I did not have to clarify this to you. It is not a difficult concept. If I was so arrogant to assume that I could know anything about you from your posts here, I would guess you are A) bigoted B) a moron C) stubborn D) militant E) immature, and well...I don't think I need to continue on. But I am sure you would agree that you do, in fact, seem that way. On the other hand, I do not think you would consider yourself to be all those things. And perhaps if you did not throw yourself at my posts, then I would not have to defend myself in such a way.

"0.84*x/100*(25+110)*4/3=1.512x, where X is your faith. That's not particularly low. Of course, you refuse to say your MA. "

All I know is that my summoner's MA is 26 (and I am not even sure about that, either). I don't pay attention to such stats with other units. I am not a stat person. I see what works, and I go with it. There is no need to perform complex calculations when you already know the outcome.

"Again, hyporcrisy. Your entire argument, and anything said in support of or against your team, have been based on assumptions. Every analysis until now, and after, have been based on assumptions. If you are going to argue assumptions get one nowhere, then it's impossible for you to say your team can't lose."

I do not assume that the attack would absolutely not hit. Do not twist my words around. I said that I would really not be surprised if one did not. Every analysis based on assumptions? Please. Did you even read this thread? I said there is not possible way for you to conclude your team would win. I don't know why you would bother saying "impossible for you to say your team can't lose"; I never stated the contrary.

"Flare has a base damage of 46, and Holy has a base damage of 50. Interesting. That means there is around 100 difference between the damage Flare does and the damage Holy does. 46*25*0.84*x*4/3=12.99x, where X is your faith, which you refuse to say. Now I wonder why this is so."

Holy is not too pwerful, either. Perhaps you are assuming too much. I would consider a two "sworded" Monk doing 999+ damage to be a lot of damage. However, the way in which you deal damage with calculated Holy spells is far more useful than Monks with two-hands. See above for my faith calculations.

"Interesting you should mention range, because Invite has a much better range than melee attacks."

*cough* Orlandu... *cough*

"Your magic isn't going to do anything to 4 of my units. I can make their faith 0 before you can land a Pray Faith on them. Unless, of course, you ignored my 4 low faith wizards out of convenience, in which case you might be able to use magic."

How could I ignore them; your strategy depends on them. I think I reference Orlandu in the post above. Perhaps I did not though... Holy Explosion has a nice range, and it is bigger than the Mediator skills reach. Of course, Orlandu is the best character in the game, but either way...

"Those are not knights, nor are they even normal classes. In any case, Orlandu isn't even a knight. If you change their default class, you are not going to have 5 casts of magic."

I had already clarified that Orlandu IS on my team. Orlandu has Knight skills, *I* consider him a Knight, and that is what counts, because it is my team. It is what was originally intended. You may disagree with my relation of this to you, a valid point now (I should have typed out 5 separate units so that all would understand; however, at the time I was not in error; retrospect is always 20/20), but it does not matter. Remind me why, again, someone would want a generic character over Orlandu?

"Go ahead. Put Hamedo on, oh, say, Orlandu. Raise his brave ot 100. Then, try to break something of his. See for yourself what's going to happen. I'll tell you right now the breaker is going to get cut down. "

I don't really use Hamedo...it's not too horribly valuable. I shall if you like though.

"There is an old Chinese proverb: he who is a thief calls others thief first. I think this applies to you very well."

Living the life of a second-hander, I see. While I think citation of quotes is valuable, I don't see the point of this one, especially in this day and age. To make a point: he who is a law enforcer calls the other a thief first (I realize it loses it rhetorical value here, though). I called you a hypocrite here, and you are. I don't know if you flipped it around on me because your skewed perception makes you really think that I am, or if you wanted to bend the situation around that quote. In any case, I never said resolutely that it would not happen. People with a 99% chance of hitting miss all the time in FFT. People with a 7% chance of stealing steal all the time.

" I'm merely showing how badly made your team was."

You have really deluded yourself that much. You pick someone out of the crowd whom you happen to disagree with, and before you even know them, you proceed straight to personal attacks. Learn some maturity, man. No one worth impressing will listen to this sort of crap. And no, I am not worth being impressed by you; after all, I am just a random person you met online. Try to put thing is perspectivel don't fool yourself.

HugiEugie
09-01-2001, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Garland
Oh, and I should mention, there's only one legitimate Excalibur in the game, from Orlandu. I forgot who said there were many

If I remember correctly (i hope i do) you were also able to poach a certain monster and be able to buy an Excalibur. I think that's what they are trying to say by that there were many Excaliburs. I think that was how I got my first one too. However, it is impossible to get more than one maximillian, which kinda sucks. I also accidently sold my Eustacheon, the best one, because I thought it was a regular Eustacheon. <sighs>

Knights are great. Seriously, I agree with Jay Ayanami. Way to go there on your part. Although everyone's dogging on you, I'm pretty impressed at how you're doing. Sure, some of the things you posted don't seem to make logical sense and half the time you're relying on luck, but FFT is actually a game heavily based on luck. I've once seen a character with a speed of 3 have two more turns than a character with a speed of 9. Logic and Luck don't mix, so don't even bother people. Logic can't be explained by luck and vice versa.

Knights are a great class. Although I don't agree with the best, they are a great class nonetheless. I love 'em especially in the beginning of the game. Sure, break ain't that handy, but heck, I can almost confidently say that half of the abilities in the game aren't worth learning. You know what I think sucks even more? Heaven and Hell. That ability sucked big time. And also, the female knights didn't look that great, but the male knights were TYTE! And their armor and weapons were worth looking at and getting. SAVE THE QUEEN!!! hehehe! This may be my opinion, so don't rebut against it... I think that TG Cid, Temple Knight, Holy Knight, Dark Knight, and etc. all somewhat go under the Knight class in a way... So, all together, Knight would be in a very distant way, the best overall class... I think...

I also think lancers are cool. I just wish that you could check when they land before you use their jump ability... Samurais, Monks, and Ninjas are also great. As you can see, I'm sort of a sucker for heavily armed classes (exception of ninjas and monks) and not much of a magic type of guy since I don't like to charge or wait. I love raw power, and in my opinion, Knights, Monks, Ninjas, and Samurais take the cake. But hey! If you like magic, fine! Be my guest, and flare, holy, and Meteor away! Just give me swords and i'm happy. Oh god, I'm becoming just like fighter... swords... shiny swords... hehehe...

I think that the best party would have to be a whole party of Tiamats or a whole party of Workers (I can dream... can't I). Those would be great! I could just imagine my party of workers crushing the hell out of poor little goblins and chocobos.

I can literally tell Jay's getting quite pissed. But I don't think you should be using such harsh words. You, after all did bring this on by saying that your party of knights can take on any other group. I don't agree with that particular statement, but I do agree that knights are the best job for the first half of the game. That wasn't quite a educated statement IMO. But that doesn't give you (others) the right to call him stupid either. He obviously likes knights and you probably won't be able to change his opinion, no matter how much you yell at him. Every person has their "thing", you say tomato and I say tomato... uhhh... I guess that only works verbally... Anyways, calling each other stupid doesn't seem pretty mature at all. I think you two could do without any verbal abuse...

KNIGHTS ARE GREAT!

Jay Ayanami
09-01-2001, 08:28 AM
I am not so much pissed as I am in utter digust. If you disgree, handle it like you did. Don't stoop to personal attacks. A bold statement is not an invitation for personal attacks; there is no room for such comments (e.g. "you're stupid", etc.) in a civil debate.

The_Stranger
09-02-2001, 04:11 AM
Hello all, I'm new here and I'm not quite as Knowledgeable about Tactics as ya'll are. But I am interested in this "best party" debate.

I'll grant this, that party is pretty tough. But I'm of the beleif that nothing is impossible to beat.

Of course one of my characters has to be male, Ramza. I dunno what I'd do with him. Another unfortunate thing is I'm assumming that he would have to survive the battle. These are the rules of the game.

I've never had level 99 characters, heck I havn't even beaten it yet. but I'm still having fun playing. grin.

Lets try this.

Ramza, Bard.
eq shield (The Big Escutcheon Shield)
MA switch
MA on Move
Thief Hat
108 gems

4 female Mages
Math Skill
eq Shield (Ageis Shields) There are more than one of those I think.
MA Switch
MA on Move.
(With Chantages)
Ribbons or Barettes to cancel the status effects.
or maybe Feather hats for speed and magic +1
h bags not to attack. but for the +1 speed.

Chamelon Robes on all that can wear them.

Now My hard part is surviving the first wave of attacks. The First wave of Flares will hurt us both alot. That is of course if the Knights still attack first. I'm not sure. if My speed + items will offset your haste or not.

Assuming that I do survive the first wave. I think I could end up winning. It would still be tough though.

With My mages I would calculate level 3 frog, I wouldn't have to worry about my guy and gals getting frogged. I'm sure I could frog prolly at least 2 of your guys maybe 3 if I'm lucky.

I'll take my chances with my 50% magic evade to help protect me.
I'll also have to try and raise pour Ramza.

I'll also cast level3 holy. and heal my guys (as well as yours).

I should be able to take away one of your fighters per round with some sort of status ailment. While Ramza is either setting my ct to 100. or speeding us all up. (except when I gotta raise his butt.)

Of course you could try and cast a Level3 frog. but you will be chancing turning your other guys to frogs too.

Now you know I'll run my butt off from you. I'll never attempt an armed combat with you on that. but If I can Keep a 3 guys of yours outta the battle with Frog, or Don't act, or something like that. I'll win.

Of course with some bad luck... I'll get toasted. either way. it would be fun to watch...


Have fun. and Go easy on me... I'm new after all. Laugh.


While I think my group would beat yours. I don't think it would beat any battle in the game. Yours would prolly would win with out any difficulties.
So as an all around party, yours pretty much Kicks butt, Mine is only an assasin squad for your guys. tehehehe (Just kidding)



The Stranger:D

mog42
10-04-2001, 04:15 AM
Math skill knights would be pretty much invincible in the game. The only party I can think of that would beat them is a party of monks with brave 97, faith 3, and blade grasp. The knights wouldn't be able to attack unless they wanted a hit percentage of 3, and their magic would be rather ineffective against a party of faith 3 people. Meanwhile, the monks would have basic skill and would be accumulating to the point where an earth slash would deal 999. Then they could start attacking. But since your knights all have haste, at least one of them could do a lv3raise2 and bring all the dead ones back before they all got finished off. The only thing that would work then is if all the monks were female and equipped with setiemsons. This perfume gives them haste, so they might possibly win, considering that monks have a slight speed advantage over knights. Then again, this is just a party I made up now to see if anything could beat your knights. This party doesn't exist in the game, so you won't have to worry about people with low faith and blade grasp. Therefore, I can agree that a party of math skill knights would be one of many possible ultimate parties in fft. My personal favorite is all math skill wizards with blade grasp, 97 brave, 94 faith, magic attack up, and chameleon robes. The basic goal is the same: to kill of enemies with holy and heal yourself at the same time, although most of the time I don't need to heal since the enemies never hurt me.

Mr Bean
10-31-2001, 02:34 AM
I can't believe i read this whole thread.

I am new enough not to argue stats and 'possibilities', but I would like to contribute a couple points that were mistaken in this thread:

1. Knights' abilities ARE useful against monsters:
-Speed Break
-Power Break

2. Knights have break abilities that are not shared by other "Knight Classes" (speed break, power break, magic power break)

3. More of an argument: There really is only one "Knight Class". Special characters are special variations of the SQUIRE class. The only argument that they are knight class is that they can equip knight swords. But they can also equip non-knight clothes, no? Ooh, actually I may be wrong on that... But I argue that they are a beefed up SQUIRE class.

Therefore, (sorry Jay) Orlandu's primary ability must be Knight, to claim that knights are the best class. But I'm perfectly ok with a claim that "4 knights plus Orlandu squire" is the best team.

Mr Bean
10-31-2001, 02:41 AM
Actually, I don't think Jay's original post of this thread included Orlandu anyway. But for those who argue special knights are a knight class, argument #3 above is for you.

Argue against it, but I won't agree with you, because my Orlandu, Agrias, Meliadul, Gafgaron, etc. have the option to change to "Knight" class!!

allkaiser
11-06-2001, 03:32 AM
Wow, this is a long thread. Let me say how you could use those same tactics to get a better party.

Full party of Summoners

Equip sword
Excaliber

Calculate

You can use the same holy-tactic, but it'll do at least twice as much damage because of the Magic power difference. Also, you can use summons (better than the knight's abilities), and your other spells with rock also. The summoner party will probably win, because you can use other calculator skills in combination with spells like flare to do more damage. Or you could always slow or stop the enemy.

Also, damage split would be a better counter-attack, most likely.

Only problem I see is that I'm not sure you can use the excalibur with the the "equip sword" ability.

Mr Bean
11-06-2001, 08:17 PM
yep, that's the problem. And that's pretty much one of the ONLY reasons knights are being argued as best class (with Jay's setup, that is).

Tokki Wartooth
11-14-2001, 12:43 AM
pfft. lancers are better, no questions asked.

knights abilities suck

Mwork
11-14-2001, 05:53 AM
................................. O_o


What's this? Someone actually on the Lancers' side?

mog42
11-14-2001, 04:07 PM
Here's a list of reasons why I think lancers are better than knights.
1. Lancers can use spears, which allow them to attack from farther away and avoid counterattacks
2. Jump can't be avoided except by blade grasp, and has a huge range
3. Lancers actually have a movement ability (ignore height) and it's a very useful one
4. Dragon Spirit is useful, even though my lancers almost never get killed
5. Break isn't very useful. Most of the time, its better to kill people than try to break their weapons with a 38% chance of success.
6. Knights have to go right up next to an enemy to do anything, and that exposes them to danger. With a lancer, it is very unlikely that you will even get close enough to the enemy for them to attack you.
7. If I was to play the game using only one job class, I would definitely choose lancers, with monks as a close second.
8. And finally, lancers have way cooler sprites and portraits.

Tokki Wartooth
11-17-2001, 11:14 PM
*agrees with post above*

yeah...cos whenever i fight knights in the wild or wherever, i can always kill them before they even come close to me. so...yeah. that's the reason you get knights so early, and you hafta wait soo long to get lancers. cos lancer is better.

*ducks*

Deception
11-22-2001, 12:57 AM
You're team may be invincible to the computer, but if the game where to be played online those Knights wouldnt stand a chance think about it a Summoner or some high magic point user can have the faith rod on and be in Auto Haste (a few was) and probally cast level 3 death as a calc skill and/or Flare maybe even sleep which comes in handy more then enough times... while the other units may vary can just jump your sleeping guys or bust out and the percentages of indirect magic attacks with knights with good prevention equipment will be about 50% at best. And having Ramza as a squire with a monk skill i believe can be very deadly. And if anyone doesnt know this Blade Grasp is the best counter technique!!! having all your guys with a 3% chance of getting hit... but then again it doesnt protect against 2 swords... =) but o well. If you think pure knights are good think again a variation is better your strat would be better if you had a little variation like your knight with the calculator skill as a Summoner (nothing can excape from Zodiac with the faith rod on =) other then with the Inocent spell.

Tasslehoff Burrfoot
11-23-2001, 02:50 PM
! simple team that could beat your would consist of either Ramaza or a summoner with Zodiac and the rest mimes. Have ramsa cast ultima or the summoners summon Zodiac and have the mimes mime it untill all the other units die. You can also give them the calaulate skills and chamelon robes and to heal cast level3 holy. If you need more then u can mime it. also the ultima or zodiac will do massive damage, probally killing atleast one unit. Then come the other 4 mimes with the same attack. U lose

Mwork
11-24-2001, 12:16 AM
1. Zodiac is not calculable.
2. Ultima is not calculable, and it doesn't dish big damage.
3. By healing yourself, you'd also run the risk of healing the Knights.

Tasslehoff Burrfoot
11-24-2001, 06:20 AM
i never said to caulate ultima or Zodiac. I would simply Cast it. Also, noone can withstand 4-5 zodiacs in a row so there would be no need for healing. Even if he raised people that sucummbed i could do it all over again. I forget bc i havent played for so long but does mime require mp? if it does equip the move mp up skill. If not you could use anything else you like.

Mwork
11-24-2001, 07:08 AM
Yes, yes. I see that now. Major brain fart on my part. :)


BUT, now that I realized you weren't planning on calculating those spells, a few other things came up.


Your Mimes won't be able to mimic Ultima. But that isn't much of a problem; Ultima hits for average damage, and it has a small effect radius, so it would be difficult to position your Mimes to hit the Knights.

By not being able to calculate Zodiac (and Miming them instead), you'll have to get in range for it to hit the Knights. Jay's Knights, on the other hand, can easily blast away from a distance. If in case your party starts off close to the Knights, though, Jay could just target as many of you with Doubt Faith before you could start your Zodiac Miming (this would happen by the way, since he'd get the first turn due to the Auto Haste provided by Excalibur). This would zap your only chance of beating him; if you were to try hitting him physically (which is pretty much all you could do at this point) he'd counter with Chaos Blade and Excalibur, killing the attacker. He'd only have to have one or two Knights stay behind calculating Doubt Faith on as many enemies as possible while the others went and hunted down the Mimes and Summoner.

Tasslehoff Burrfoot
11-24-2001, 09:20 AM
i didnt think that far.
This is aonther team i thought about.

5 knights
3 mediator ability
2 calulate
same equipment as Jay's

I have the powerful calculate albility and i could invite or do other nasty tho Jay's knights. We would also have the same speed and pretty much everything that Jay can do.

Yuffie is a B****
11-24-2001, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Well, they are the best in conjuction with other classes.

Does anyone *dare* disagree?

I *dare*. I haven't got fa rinto the gam ebut I lareayd have forund sevral betetr job classes.

Monks: combat Gods. Take all that was good about them in ff5 then add some broken techniques like spin fist and wavefist. Despite there armour limtiations they have good defence.

Mediator: MUHAHAHAHAH! Turn the power of the knight on its own temamates! How good is that? Oh and as a bonus it gets you tons of coll equipment and you never have to worry abotu the recruting office agian! Oha nd don't forget the faitrh lowerign and rasing abiltes,the abilty to get monsters and all the othe rcoll perks

Priest: the glue that holds the party together plus Holy

Chemist: odd chocie i know. To be hones tthe only reason its her eis ebcause of phoeniex down. But phoeniex down is a life saver early in the game.

and i bet when I get them samuris will also be better

Yuffie is a B****
11-24-2001, 10:43 PM
oh yeah if were doing a "my squad coulod eat yours for lunch crap" then my 5 mediators would destroy/ recuit your squad of knights.

Note neither 2 were meant as flames. Please do not take offfence

bennator
11-27-2001, 09:25 PM
I'm pretty new to this discussion, and even though I don't take the side of the knights, I do want to say that they would beat the 5 mediators.

Invite has about a 20% chance of working on average. That means that in one turn, it would take all 5 mediators to invite one kinght. However the knights in that time could wreak some serious havoc on the mediators, possibly killing one or more in that time. So most of the time the knights would win.
---------------------

Anyway, as many of you have probably noted, there is a gameshark code (world map debug) that lets you play part of your party against another part. It might be interesting to try some of these parties, and post the results, this weekend when I have some free time. If I do this, I would post the battle step by step, and tell the map used.

And, wouldn't it be great if someday we could all play tactics against each other just for fun?

Edit:

I'll begin raising the first two definitive parties that I saw, they'll be lv. 99 in combat, I'll subsititute equipment if there is only one of each, the next srtongest down the list in the FFT OSG:
--------------

Jay Ayanami :

5 knights, equipped with...
Secondary skill set: Calculator Skills.
Reaction skill set: Counter Attack.
Support skill set: Two swords.
Movement skill set: Move + 3

and... Right hand: Excalibur.
Left hand: Chaos Blade.
Head: Grand Helmet.
Body: Maximillian.
Acessory: Germinias Boots, Speed Shoes, Magic Glove, or Genji Glove.
--------------------

Lans Tartare:

2 female wizards:
97 Brave, 84 Faith

Math Skill
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

3 female wizards:
97 Brave, 3 Faith

Draw Out
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

Wizard Rod
N/A
Ribbon
Chameleon Robe
Chantage
---------------------

I'll make the combat take place in a random battlefield (use a random # generator for it), and then I'll have my friend who is equally skilled as I in this game play against me, the sides will be determined by a coin toss. I'll write down the battle step-by-step, and then post it. After this, I guess I'll move on to the next group.

InferNoX66X
12-30-2001, 07:41 PM
lancers would jump and level 3 holy is obsolete by adding abandon i could jump and stay invisible
dancers could also beat you by using nameless dance and causing sleep confuse berserk blind poison
I would let the stat effects kill you
My lovely lil dancer berserked and confused meliadoul making her easy to steal from her 2 archers petrified
and after that the summoners were silenced
HAHAHAHA what an easy fight
btw i was level 30 dont think i over levelled
but i could win with a team of monsters as well 1 tiamat which i have 2 red chocobos and 1 yellow chocobo and one of those tree guys with the shell protect otion
OVERLEVELLING IS FOR LOSERS

Notti
02-01-2002, 02:49 AM
Love this thread :)

Summon Illusion
02-09-2002, 02:36 AM
This might be kinda late, but wouldn't the calculator thing only work assuming that all the enemies are at Lv. 99 as well?

Rocky
02-09-2002, 03:04 AM
you know what has a larger range than every other weapon? guns. Gun's rely on physical attack, and but simply using the degenerator/re-level up trick, you can pull off 999 damage with a gunshot. Although you would have to consider that you wouldn't always hit, but you could have many more chances to attack before they got close. Combine that with Blade Grasp, you could get some very good combinations. Lower the faith to three and raise teh brave to 97. Give them Knight Skills, and they could try to break you from a pretty nice distance.

For anyone who desires to use Tiamats, I would throw Reis in the background to dragon tame them. Equip her with the Chantage (automatic re-raise/regen), which would leave her subject only to Orlandu and knights.

Summon Illusion
02-09-2002, 03:16 AM
Question: Considering you are doing the relevel up trick, doesn't that mean all that status talk earlier has NO MEANING WHATSOEVER? My 1 cent.

Rocky
02-09-2002, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Summon Illusion
Question: Considering you are doing the relevel up trick, doesn't that mean all that status talk earlier has NO MEANING WHATSOEVER? My 1 cent.

but weapon's still do matter. And giving a chemist with a gun and knight skill would still allow you to destroy a sword drom a large distance away.

Summon Illusion
02-09-2002, 11:16 PM
Yes, but since the chemist's bad points are his stats and the other way around for the knights, isn't that kinda unfair...?
Sort of, imagine the calculator knights doing 999 heal and 999 damage with their holy. That is just not fair.

Oh yeah, and the jump thing earlier mentioned. It's true. The reason why people probably confuse it so much is because, something like the first 4 squares are the strength of about a normal attack, while the last 4 (the farther away squares from the original location where jump's done) does the double damage. Probably the reason why people confuse this is because they test it on something liek someone 6 squares away then someone 8 squares away.

mog42
02-10-2002, 04:01 AM
Gun's rely on physical attack, and but simply using the degenerator/re-level up trick, you can pull off 999 damage with a gunshot.

I do not think that there any guns that rely on PA for damage. Romanda, Mythril, and Stone guns deal damage equal to the gun's attack power squared. For spell guns, the amount of damage dealt is equal to the amount that a similar spell from the black magic skill set would do, but the gun's attack power is used in place of MA.


Oh yeah, and the jump thing earlier mentioned. It's true. The reason why people probably confuse it so much is because, something like the first 4 squares are the strength of about a normal attack, while the last 4 (the farther away squares from the original location where jump's done) does the double damage

Actually, jump attacks do extra damage when the unit executing the jump is equipped with a spear. When the jumping unit does not have a spear, jump does the same amount of damage as a normal attack.

Summon Illusion
02-10-2002, 04:05 AM
Really? But that can't be true...since if that's true then the accumulate trick for Weigraff shouldn't have worked for me, Ramza was a chemist with a gun...

And yeah, Ramza was another class when I did the jump thing and didn't have a spear, but the damage DID change depending on the square drastically. Like, double.

mog42
02-10-2002, 06:32 AM
Are you sure that zodiac alignments weren't responisible for Ramza doing different amounts of damage to units on different squares?

Summon Illusion
02-10-2002, 07:42 AM
I'm pretty sure it wasn't...but now that I think of it I can't be 100% there, sorry.

Jay Ayanami
03-19-2002, 01:10 AM
I'm ba-ack!

Just when you thought you had the best of me, too!!!

Anyhow, *jumps around* Knights are the best, Knights are the best, Knights are the best.

*Level3Holy-s everyone*

Anyhow, Knights are the best. No other team is as good as my team is, overall!!!

Summon Illusion
03-19-2002, 02:23 AM
I don't think Knights are much of a good class. In collaberation with the long-ranged calculators they're amazing (since it makes up for the fact that they're slow, movement, NO ranged attacks and their main ability being total crap), however unfortunately on their own they're useless. Of course, this could be said with other classes as well (for example, a knight with equip gun, a black mage with draw out abilties or calculator abilities), however then that would be stating the knight class is the best class to be in putting in other classese' abilties. I find this an interesting thought...which class would be the most powerful, supposing that you can only have abilites of any sort from their class (so no move+3 on the mage, for example).

Jay Ayanami
03-20-2002, 03:32 AM
Think of it this way. The job of Knight entails the ability to select a subskill (as all other jobs classes do, aside from Mime). I select Math. In conjunction with Calculator, it is better than any other class, all things being equal (for other classes may also equip Calculator subskills).

Summon Illusion
03-20-2002, 11:11 AM
Yes, but without the calculator class the knight class would automatically be useless. Then Knights aren't the best class, it's just the best class overall to collaberate with a calculator, and only with that specific pattern.

mog42
03-20-2002, 03:46 PM
Knights don't have very high MA, so it wouldn't be a very good idea to give them math skill. The only spells that would be worth casting from knights are status spells that only rely on faith. It would be much better to give math skill to a wizard because then you could deal more damage with spells.

Summon Illusion
03-20-2002, 04:23 PM
I find wizards with draw out fun to ues.

Edgar
03-20-2002, 08:39 PM
Knights can easily defeat holy knights, dark knights, etc. That's why some people say that they are good...you should give knights punch art or something

mog42
03-20-2002, 08:39 PM
Yeah, I did that once. I had a draw out wizard doing around 400 damage with kikuichimoji. Draw out damage is based on MA, making wizards the best draw out users. It's probably nothing more than a coincidence, but I've noticed that katanas break more often when draw out is performed by someone other than a samurai.

Summon Illusion
03-21-2002, 01:18 AM
I have ramza with that setup, he does 600 damage easily, it's great.

Jay Ayanami
03-21-2002, 04:01 AM
No, they are the best class because at their optimum setup, they are the best. For instance, you can make any job class crappy if you set them up in a certain way. Therefore, you take into account the best possible setup. Knights have the best possible setup.

Anyhow, when I say Knights, I (as I have said eariler in the thread) include all Knight type classes (primarily Holy Swordsman, since it is a conglomeration of all Knight classes).

And they are far better than anything else.

mog42
03-21-2002, 04:29 AM
I don't think that Holy Swordsman or any other special job should be considered the same as a knight. Their special sword skills are much more powerful than most generic abilities, so it is pointless to say that they are the best.

Edgar
03-21-2002, 08:03 AM
Knights and Holy knights, etc. have nothing in common, except the fact that they both hold knight swords. Holy Knights are (i think) blessed by the church or something

Summon Illusion
03-21-2002, 05:34 PM
Dude, Knights, Divine Knights, Holy Swordsman, Holy Knights and Arc knights are NOT the same thing. THat's like saying summoners, calculators, oracles and black mages are the same. They're differnt classes, you're talking about the pure knight class, and if you aren't that's not even a generic class which would basically make this into a completely stupid conversation (well DUH Orlandu would win no matter what).

mog42
03-21-2002, 09:27 PM
Yeah, I totally agree with you. This thread needs to be about plain generic knights or it will just be pointless.

Edgar
03-21-2002, 09:41 PM
Knights are knights, they break things using physical.
Holy Knights, Dark Nights, etc are what i call 'Blessed Knights by God). And they do damage by holiness.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!!!!

Kngihts DO NOT have a Holy knight's ability anyway

Jay Ayanami
03-21-2002, 10:12 PM
Your OPINION notwithstanding, I have used since the beginning of this thread "Knights" as a term referring to all Knight classes. I would not include Orlandu on my team if I restricted myself to Knight.

Note now that I did not mean you have no right to your opinion of what a Knight is. I simply meant that your opinion is meaningless here, since "Knight" had already been previously qualified. We are discussing this topic within the context of "Knight" being any type of unit with Knight abilities. It may not be the right definition, but it is the one which has been established for use within this thread.

Just so we are all on the same page.

(At any rate, think about this logically... why would I say a plain Knight is the best when others, such as Divine Knight, are clearly superior? I was not even listing them as the best as a result of their break abilities. I think those abilities suck. It's their non-Break abilities that make them good.)

Mecha Sepheroth
03-21-2002, 10:42 PM
Heres my anser your an ass Ninjas are by far man.

Jay Ayanami
03-22-2002, 12:26 AM
"Heres my anser your an ass Ninjas are by far man. "

If only that made sense. Here is my response:

"Heres" should be "Here's" (It's a conjunction!); "anser" is not a word - "answer" is, however; you need a period after "anser"; "your" is the possessive form of "you" - "You're" would have done fine (It's also the beginning of a new sentence so go ahead and capitalize it.); good job on not forgetting to use "an" instead of "a" before a word beginning with a vowel; you need a period after "ass"; you need a comma after "far"; the last sentence does not make sense - perhaps consider rephrasing it thus: "Ninjas are better by far, man.".

Okay, I am not that anal, but I think you get the picture. I don't take a post containing grammar of that level seriously.

But if I did, I would say you are wrong. I won't bother to argue what I have already said. If you are curious as to what I would have said, refer to the previous posts.

Also, let's not stoop to unnecessary verbal insults. There is no purpose in being petty here.

Ragnarok
03-22-2002, 12:31 AM
Dude lighten up, its not like he killed somebody. It's just a typo.

mog42
03-22-2002, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami

We are discussing this topic within the context of "Knight" being any type of unit with Knight abilities. It may not be the right definition, but it is the one which has been established for use within this thread.



That isn't a very good definition of Knight because most knight abilities aren't that good. Battle skill has such a low hit percentage that it is usually better to attack with a normal physical attack. Weapon guard and the Equip abilities are generally worthless because better support and reaction abilities are available.

Ragnarok
03-22-2002, 12:52 AM
To save this thread I will say that Knights are a pretty good class as equipment goes but their abilities could be better. There are much better classes you could use but knights arent bad.

Jay Ayanami
03-22-2002, 01:09 AM
We are not debating (or should not be, at least) the term "Knight". I call it "Knight" simple because it has "Knight" in the name. I include Holy Swordsman because it has Knight abilities. It is a sound definition for this reason only. If I was addressing the issue with regard to the difference of ability, then I would use your definition. However, it has been made clear that in this context, the definition includes "all those" Knight classes. It depends on what your need is as to whether or not is a good definition.

Next, let me make it clear that I think Knights have bad act abilities. HOWEVER, this is all overshadowed by the other benefits you get with the Knight class. Thus, overall, they are the best class.

Q. E. D.!!!

mog42
03-22-2002, 01:22 AM
Well, here's a list of pro's and con's for the knight class.

Pro:
Able to equip knight swords and heavy armor
Battle Skills are good in theory
High HP and PA

Con:
Low MA and MP
No ranged attacks
Battle skill is extremely unreliable

It's a pretty average class in my opinion. There are other classes that are more useful, like monks and lancers.

Notti
03-22-2002, 02:32 AM
In the very title of this thread you say "Knights are the best job class". If you meant to include all the SPECIAL knight related classes that only one person on your team could ever use you should've said "classes". Anyway, it's not like it's that bad. Regular Knights do above average in hypothetical duels due to Knight Swords, Shields, and their ability to chip away at stats. They lose out on Hats though.

If you insist on including all special knights, could you list the specific jobs and the the names of the wielders? (ex: Holy Swordsman - Orlandu)

Also, unlike your first "strat" post at the beginning of the thread, I disagree very much on Grand Helmets and Maximillians being better than Thief Hats and Robe of Lords. If you were truly including people like Orlandu you should've given him a Thief Hat.

Jay Ayanami
03-22-2002, 04:30 AM
Notti, I don't know if you read what I said, but I stated that there would be no point in favoring a Knight over a Holy Swordsman, so it would have been foolish to me to refer exclusively to Knight. I explained why I included Holy Swordsman above.

People fail to be objective; they are too compelled by the suckiness of the Break skill set. My point is that it is the other attributes of the Knight is what makes them the best.

I choose HP over speed simply because Excalibur already caters to that need. While Robe of Lords may increase MA attack power and MP, which each seem to give an advantage, it is again a moot point. Five Knights attacking with Holy is overkill. Adding extra MA is just adding more overkill. MP does not matter at all.

Blackmage
03-22-2002, 06:26 AM
Damn...I can't believe that this thread is STILL going. Yeesh. As far as taking out your knights goes, Lv. 98 Monks should do the trick. Deck them out with the following:

*Jump (with max range)
*Dragon Spirit
*Defense UP
*Move +2

*Black Costume
*Thief Hat
*Bracers

-The problem with weapons in FFT is that they aren't as powerful as fists, in the end. You can give Orlandu an Excalibur, and you wouldn't come close to the capability of damage that a Monk's bare fists would give. Monks usually do 999 damage when that high in level.
-These monks would be a notch harder to hit with Calculator spells on account of an impossible-to-hit level number.
-Even if you can give good damage with your blades, the Defense UP would help compensate for the lack of HP the monks get.
-Dragon Spirit's just plain annoying. At least I'd find it to be annoying if my enemies would reraise themselves.
-Movement is at 6. That's just plain nice.
-Jump would get a low-HP monk out of the way and still cause damage; even if it didn't damage, they can't be hit when in the air.
-The hat gives them a base speed advantage over the knights, if I am not mistaken. Not much good for anything else.

I dunno if this would work or not. I'd say it'd be a close match, especially if you're including Orlandu and the unique knights.

Summon Illusion
03-22-2002, 06:39 AM
Ok, let's say like everyone else in this thread besides you the term knight was directly defined to the class knight, with the exact same name instead of holy knights, divine knights, arc knights, dark knights, and holy swordsman which just have the name knight in them.
Oh, and considering that everyone besides you who started the topic was confused with the header, I'd say that you should have made it more specific, because we all did think you were talking about knight, as in knight (obvious reasons why...)

Now, let's say it was just knight as in, knights. In that case, would you still say that? It seems like the whole knights issue is a backup in the case some argument came about the original strategy. To me, at least.

Oh yeah, don't forget this strategy assumes that everyone's at level 99. Maybe that's true in your game, which random battle monsters are equal to your level, but that isn't neccessarily the case with everyone. You'd have a bit of a hard time.

I'd have to gree here that thief hat's more useful than the other. +2 speed is a gift from god, and the don'tmove don'tact cancelings come in handy very frequently.

I feel that somewhat your comparings to the referall knight to all classes that look like knights is unfair. I mean, this is the MIDDLE AGES. DUH, most of the special classes would have the knight concept in it. What else do you expect? - -;;
I suppose we should include squire now as a knight class as well, which would make ramza's guts part of the knight class.

Additionally, is it really interesting to compare generic classes with NPC characters? It's not really interesting, (cheat) Orlandu would win every single time.

mog42
03-22-2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Kuja Highwind
-The problem with weapons in FFT is that they aren't as powerful as fists, in the end. You can give Orlandu an Excalibur, and you wouldn't come close to the capability of damage that a Monk's bare fists would give. Monks usually do 999 damage when that high in level.
-These monks would be a notch harder to hit with Calculator spells on account of an impossible-to-hit level number.


Yeah, I agree that monks would be able to kill knights very easily, especially if skills from other jobs are allowed. Unfortunately, monks will never do 999 damage under normal circumstances. The formula for barefist damage is PA*[PA*Brave/100]. This amounts to PA^2 with 100 brave. Without level up/down, a monk won't have PA higher than the mid 20's at level 99, meaning they will only do 400-600 damage.

Also, no one is ever immune to math skill because of being at level 98. For some reason, CT 4 usually targets all units when it's used on the first turn of combat. I don't know why, but it probably means that the number of clock ticks it takes for the math skill person to get a turn is a multiple of 4, so 4 is a factor of everyone's CT.

For the purpose of saving this thread, I'm proposing that knight be defined as the generic job class. No special classes are included here because everyone agrees that they are more powerful than the normal job classes.

Summon Illusion
03-22-2002, 05:32 PM
Oh yeah, I noticed that with calculator spells as well. Around the first turn or so there's always a ct that hits everyone (or everyone besides the caster).

However, you can't consistantly in such a case, it changes after a little.

Blackmage
03-22-2002, 09:59 PM
*Dude, he's got Haste and I don't. Only all of his team's gonna have CT 100 on turn one, thus making it all the harder to hit me with his lousy-cheap-skate Calculator Holy. Who knows about Height or exp? It could all very well help me in him not hitting me with those Calculator Holy spells.
*As far as the damage goes, my monks have always seemed to kick that much ass, but I could be wrong; or it might have been Ramza that did that much. Still, the point remains that the monks can outdo the Knights with their Excaliburs about 2 to 1.
*And don't forget about the almighty ranged attack of Earth Slash. It may cause nearly as much damage as an attack would, but it does deal a significant amount of damage. Monks also have a few supportive abilities, mainly Chakra, that come in handy at times, compared to the knight's lousy break weapon skills.

I'd also like to think that Lv. 98 female thiefs with Setiemsons could potentially take care of the job, so long as they can get to the Knights in the first round and steal those bad-ass-cheap Excaliburs. Give 'em all a Black Costume, Thief Hat, Move +3, Math Skill, Dragon Spirit, and Magic Attack UP, and they just might take care of the cheap Knights. They've got just a bit more Speed than the knights now, a move of 7 if I'm correct, and the ability to hit every last one of those pricks with Level 3 Flare. If nothing else, they can always charm the knights. See what you can do with both of these strategies, Jay.

Summon Illusion
03-23-2002, 12:41 AM
I like the thief idea.

Jay Ayanami
03-23-2002, 05:16 AM
"I mean, this is the MIDDLE AGES."

This is a fictious world. It is not in the Middle Ages. It is in a time period unique to the game. If it were in the Middle ages, there would be no magic and combat would not be turn-based.

Before I continue, let me ask that you READ THE REST OF THIS THREAD if you have not already done so. Many of these issues have already been dicussed. For example, I have previously and EXPLICITLY explained how I meant the term "Knights" in this thread. In addition we have already discussed Monks.

So moving SWIFTLY on ...

Yes, I KNOW Monks are powerful. I KNOW they can easily do 1998 damage on one turn. HOWEVER, they do not have Haste and would not get their turn first. FURTHERMORE, the attack has no range, so you would need to be in proximity of the Knight in order to attack it. ADDITIONALLY, 1998 damage is pure OVERKILL. A lot of damage does not necessarily equal the best unit. A knight can deal damage which, while admittedly less than 1998, is still lethal, and that is all that matters. Dead is dead. A Chaos Blade / Excalibur attack is something to be reckoned with.

Next, I only say to calculate for level 99 because most people are on level 99. I can calculate by any number of different factors and attributes. I thought that much was obvious ...

While I am thinking about it, let me point out the tragic flaw in every one of your arguments, which is all anyone has ever been trying to do is to design a team which can beat mine. To be the best team, you must be the best in general. Even if a team you design could beat mine, it would probably not be better than mine on average.

Kuja, that team would still lose as a result of HP defecit. Let's assume you manage to steal an excalibur from each and every one of my Knights. Their turns are now over and now it is my turn. They are all adjacent to my Knights, for the proximity on a Steal ability is one. So, all I do is attack with my remaining Chaos Blade, killing each and every one of your Thieves. If you charmed them, it would not matter; all I would have to do is Calculate a spell which will hurt your units by a great deal but only mildly to mine because I have high HP.

As for you, Summon Illusion, I do not take responsibility for your misunderstanding. I have explicitly defined "Knight" earlier in the thread and readig that is your responsibility. Not mine.

Squires would not be considered Knights because they do not have Knight-type abilities.

MLenyo
03-23-2002, 05:24 AM
itd be fun to steal the excaliburs and chaos blades and CHUCK EM AT HIS CHARACTERS HEADS! BAH HQ HAHAHAHHAQHQHQHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHKAKJHKAHJAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!

Jay Ayanami
03-23-2002, 06:41 AM
Alas ... if that only made sense ...

MLenyo
03-23-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Alas ... if that only made sense ...

oh, i assure you, it did. steal/throw is a fun yet not very effective combo. theres some joy in stealing someones weapon and then killing them with it ::sighs happily::. it would just be fun with your guys because they have such good weapons. get what im saying?

Summon Illusion
03-23-2002, 11:41 PM
You're one of those people that try to sound intellingent but really isn't, aren't you.

The majority's definition is different from yours, which would mean that the general thought for knight would intdeed, be the generic knight class. Of course you may just be an eccentric one, however the discussion earlier just simply faded out, meaning that most people are going by their own definitions anyways... (side look)
Ah, but you see, it's pretty damn close to the design of that of the middle ages, corrupt churches to knights, general wars and the island looking like europe, gothic shaping, peasant rebellions, lords, distant lands referring to japan...how is this NOT middle-ages designed.
The ancients would be representational to rome&greece, and of course they did believe in magic, which doesn't neccessarily make it true but hey, that's because they need magic to make it an FF (duh).

You know, it's people like you that don't get anywhere.

Like something he would say, there's no point in talking in this sort of case. You can write some long-dwindling explanation which sort of really isn't an explanation anyways, but I'm just gonna ignore this thread like he did. Don't expect me to read the reply which you spent so much time wasting.

MLenyo
03-24-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Summon Illusion
You're one of those people that try to sound intellingent but really isn't, aren't you.....

me? or jay ayanami(pssh)?

Jay Ayanami
03-24-2002, 01:34 AM
MLenyo:

"oh, i assure you, it did. steal/throw is a fun yet not very effective combo. theres some joy in stealing someones weapon and then killing them with it ::sighs happily::. it would just be fun with your guys because they have such good weapons. get what im saying?"

This course of logic is first flawed because it relies on a successful theft, an action that typically has low chances of working. Secondly, one hit with a Chaos Blade by a Thief will in all liklihood not kill one of my units. My units have high HP due to the Maximillian and Grand Helmet. You'd have to have a unit with relatively high attck power. Moreover, you'd have to have a second turn to throw the item and in all liklihood, I'd have killed you By then.

Summon Illusion:

"You're one of those people that try to sound intellingent but really isn't, aren't you."

Okay, you spelled intelligent wrong and mispunctuated, just so you know. Only trying to live up to your expectations. Anyhow, you know nothing about me. Think of me however you want to; it would be an impossible feat for me to convince you otherwise. There is no point in stooping to petty insults as you have done so I shall not.

"The majority's definition is different from yours, which would mean that the general thought for knight would intdeed, be the generic knight class."

I stress this point: the majority's opinion is a moot matter. I clearly defined what "Knight" meant earlier in the thread. It was your responsibility to read the thread before you post. I could wager that half of the people who see this thread simply read the subject and then post, and without heed to what has already been established. I have chosen to approach this debate in an Aristotelian way (i.e. I define a word before I employ it; this is the meaning that is used when I speak with the word; regardless of the audience's opinion, it is the meaning intended.)

As for what you have said about this taking place in the Middle Ages (and I will say here and now that you are wrong) I will say the following:

"I feel that somewhat your comparings to the referall knight to all classes that look like knights is unfair. I mean, this is the MIDDLE AGES. DUH, most of the special classes would have the knight concept in it. What else do you expect? - -;;"

That line of logic is flawed. You will notice that the abilities of the special Knight classes are largely based around the generic Knight class. Meliadoul breaks people, just as a normal Knight would. Orlandu also possesses these abilities. You will notice that I did not include Hell or Heaven Knight in the types of Knights available! This is because their abilities are not of the Knight type.

And about the setting of the book - I will not deny that there are compelling similarities between FFT and the Middle Ages. However, this does not make them at all synonomous. It simply makes them, at best, analogous.

And there are compelling reasons that it does not take place in the Middle Ages. Shiva is Hindu, for example. Furthermore, they have technology that never existed in the Middle Ages including guns and robots. This world is ficticious and therefore you cannot apply the premises of the real Middle Ages to it.

"You know, it's people like you that don't get anywhere."

Yet another pointless insult. In my defense, I will say that I am the one driving this debate onward. You dwell on the conflict over the Knights by not accepting that "Knight" had already been defined as something other than what you are happy with. Accept this definition not in general, but in the context of this debate. You and I both know what is meant by it so let's go with it, regardless of whether we believe it is correct or not.

Secondly, I don't see how you could possibly make this inference since you know little to nothing about me. You simply know a bit about how I write, that I disagree with you, and that I like FFT. You should stop and consider your words before you allow them to spew from your mouth in a passionate fit. To lay this matter to rest, I will say that I do, in fact, "get anywhere" in life. You'll have to take my word on that.

In closing:

I DO, in fact, explain myself clearly. You choose to be obstinate. Call this what you like, but it will only be a hollow justification to yourself. I have posted, and it is available to you should you wish to read it. I have left the option to make a response in YOUR hands.

Finally:

"Don't expect me to read the reply which you spent so much time wasting."

That didn't make any sense. Perhaps you meant to add "making" to the end. That might have made sense.

P. S.

Feel free to e-mail me if you desire proof that I am not a stupid individual. I will provide it. You have my word on that.

MLenyo
03-24-2002, 01:38 AM
hey, chill jay, i never said "my thieves would steal your items and kill you because youre team is beatable!!!" i was having some fun, thats what this is all about anyways. and i said it would be fun to steal the weapons, not i WOULD steal the weapons. some people...

Jay Ayanami
03-24-2002, 02:10 AM
"hey, chill jay, i never said "my thieves would steal your items and kill you beacuse youre team is beatable!!!" i was having some fun, thats what this is all about anyways. and i said it would be fun to steal the weapons, not i WOULD steal the weapons. some people..."

I was only saying that it is a flawed approach to defeating my team. You seem to think that I was passionately debating with you. Not at all. I was simply showing the inherent flaw. There is no need for me to chill; I assure you I am quite calm now. Take offense if you like; I only felt your post deserved a response.

MLenyo
03-24-2002, 02:30 AM
it wasnt an idea to beat your team, it was something fun to do.

Ferenan
03-24-2002, 02:57 AM
Sorry to interrupt..but would you listen to yourselves? you sound like kids heh. "Nono! i would do this and youde die!". well..the point is..as i was looking at this thread i just noticed some things.

1) There is no way to prove how "elite" your team of knights are, because we cannot test.

2) This is one of the most unintelligable threads iv'e ever read. im surprised its not locked.

3) And lastly, there is no such thing as an elite team in FFT. Everything has a weakness.

Edgar
03-24-2002, 11:02 AM
That's not true. There IS a elite team in FFT with or without special characters. We're just going to find out what is the elite team.

BTW: Elite doesn't mean invincible. It just mean strong...(Checks the dictionary):eep:

Yuffie is a B****
03-24-2002, 03:54 PM
I didn't come reply before as I was a nOOb and unable to make fully infromed statments about the game. Now I am a vet and ready to debate!
First to the guy who syas 5 knight would ebat the crap out fo 5 meds where did you get 20%? I used my mediator bridgette a lot thoguh the game and the average chance ws abotu 35%. She took most of her levels as a white mage but still its makes a large diffrence. Also ebar in mind one or more of the knight turing on his fellows oculd seriouslley upset there chance of winning. Going down to 4 men and having one of there fighter go agisnt them is pretty tough.
But I admit it would be hard to determine the winner. Maybe when I get a gs3000 i will test this. Anyone know where I can get one is England?
Anyway on to the topic. Knights are pretty good having good lv growth,being able to equip many kinds of armor and having the fantastic equip armour abilty. But there ar emany jobs better than knight

Monk: in pure melee a monk will beat a knight becuse of there fantastic strengh (in most cases). However there abiltes put them out of the knights league. Hp restore means killing a monk is very hard for a knight and more than cancels out a monks armor limit, earth slash can strike multiple knights far away (with 100% accuracy). Oh and revive is incrediable and free! Also don't forget charka! The knight has only 3 things over a monk:
1) the abilty to wear armor (hp restore mor ethan makes up for this
2) Equip armor (agian hp restore more than makes for this)
3) better stat growth. Even with this a lv 99 monk raised a monk form lv 1 will obliterate a knight raised from lv 1

Lancer: Able to equip all the armor a Knight can. Also Dragon spirit is a great abilty. Spears can do a heck of a lot of damage and can atatck from 2 squares away/ Jump getrs thm out of the way of aknights atatck and aguments there damage even more. tehy do everything a knight does (minus the useless breaks) except better

Priest: There are many combat classes and a good few better than the knight but other than the chemist how many healing classes? 1 if you include the monk. White mages are far mor e likely to turnt he tide of war than a knight. Cure is great and raise rocks. Protect can be great as well.

Chemist only 3 reason here:
1) phoeniex down)
2) guns
3) Auto potion! yay!

Mediator turning the enmy gisnt itself, getting tons of free and cool equipment and never having to worry about the soldier office all add up to a brilliant class. Plus its got guns and can shoot brave up to 97. YAY!

Ninja Agian only a few reasons:
1) its has the best stat growths int he game
2) the speed is VERY useful
3) throwing stuff can be good
4) 2 swords is fantastic

Summoner
Hp is sucky but offensivley NO ONE (except holy swordsmen *cough* munchkins) equal these guys.
Tere slwo and fragile but summons do immense damage and hit many enmies. Plus Golem and fairey ar evry useful indee
I still ddint ge tthe samuri (meh to hard) but I think I made my point

Ferenan
03-24-2002, 07:21 PM
Last time i checked...the definition was something like..


Elite: A group of people regarded as superior in someway and therefore favored; Peerless

Jay Ayanami
03-24-2002, 09:24 PM
"Sorry to interrupt..but would you listen to yourselves? you sound like kids heh. "Nono! i would do this and youde die!". well..the point is..as i was looking at this thread i just noticed some things."

By your logic, the act of sheer debate would sound childlike. I think we have conducted ourselves for the most part in a professional manner. At least, I feel as though I have. At any rate, to your post ...

"1) There is no way to prove how "elite" your team of knights are, because we cannot test."

Just because you cannot test something does not mean it is not true. We cannot test evolution (because by definition, definition is change over time - long periods of time; scientists do not debate the fact that evolution is untestable), for example, but we are 99.99% sure it is true. In fact, if you were to say it was not, you would be shunned by the logical (scientific) community.

"2) This is one of the most unintelligable threads iv'e ever read. im surprised its not locked."

Your point being ... ? I can understand it. I think I and many other people have been more than lucid in our posting. You'd have to be pretty dense not to understand it.

"3) And lastly, there is no such thing as an elite team in FFT. Everything has a weakness."

Lastly, I agree with Edgar. There IS such a thing as an elite team in FFT. Not everything has a weakness. It is just a belief people have come to accept as a truth. We like to think that everything has a weakness.

Yuffie -

I am afraid that I cannot offer a counter argument against your post simply because I have made several in the past which address nearly identical issues. As I said before, Knights are not good for their action abilities. They are good for their innate abilities to use Knight Swords, etc. And they could beat any of the units your proposed ...

Please read earlier posts for clarification.

Ferenan
03-24-2002, 11:32 PM
Sigh. Right. Evolution is accepted widely. The point is, your knights aren't. Evolution also has research on it, whereas you just tested against a bunch of computers. Hell, i can make a group of all squires and whop computers too. And there is no use debating since we cannot test. This isn't even like opinionated with good evidence. it's simply you boasting and refusing to admit that you can be beaten. But since we cannot test and you deny, WTF is the point in arguing? And yes, this thread is very lucid in its meaning: Pointless. Everything has a weakness. Whatever is done can be undone and nothing remains constant except change itself.

Jay Ayanami
03-24-2002, 11:50 PM
"Sigh. Right. Evolution is accepted widely. The point is, your knights aren't. Evolution also has research on it, whereas you just tested against a bunch of computers."

No, you are completely missing the point. I cited evolution as an example of something most people agree is correct yet is not testable. This was meant to show that while you cannot test whether or not my Knight team was the best, you could still draw a conclusion. You misunderstood (or perhaps misconstrued) my analogy.

"Hell, i can make a group of all squires and whop computers too. And there is no use debating since we cannot test. This isn't even like opinionated with good evidence."

I have presented evidence and argued logical scenarios. That is the best we can do.

"it's simply you boasting and refusing to admit that you can be beaten."

Not at all. If I thought it could be beaten, I would admit it. But that is not even the matter at hand. I am seeking to prove that Knights are the best job class. Even if they could be beated, it could still be that they are the best overall, and I would still be right.


"But since we cannot test and you deny, WTF is the point in arguing?"

If there is no point to having this debate, then there is no point to a lot of things. Debate here and posting here is for recreational purposes. If you do not feel that this is worth time, then stop posting as Summon Illusion did. You are absolutely free to that choice. But don't come in here and hate just because you can.

"And yes, this thread is very lucid in its meaning: Pointless. Everything has a weakness. Whatever is done can be undone and nothing remains constant except change itself."

"Pointless" is not a point to be proven. It is a thing. Everything does not have a weakness. If you buy into the Big Bang Theory then you might just believe in a deity; if that is so, then you have something that is without a weakness. Even if that is not true (I'd REALLY rather not get into a theological debate!) to limit yourself to think that everything has a weakness, then you have closed you mind to a whole field of possibilities.

Ferenan
03-25-2002, 12:03 AM
And you are close minded to think that some things don't have a weakness. God, your right im simply not going to post in here because your being anal and your arguments are completely bogus. Your oh so right mr big and bad, nothing messes with your awesome knights. Now shut up. Oh, and i do know a strategy to beat your knights: snap your CD in half and make you eat it :mad:

Jay Ayanami
03-25-2002, 01:14 AM
Please, let's not stoop to childish taunts and insults. I've had enough of that.

"And you are close minded to think that some things don't have a weakness."

I never said that. I simply said that not everything has to has a weakness. Do not misconstrue what I say.

"God, your right im simply not going to post in here because your being anal and your arguments are completely bogus. Your oh so right mr big and bad, nothing messes with your awesome knights."

I'll be anal, if that is the expectation you have constructed for me. You should first learn to form a contraction correctly; it is "you're", not "your". "Bogus" is a simple subjective comment. I have substanitaed my arguments, which is more than I can say for you and have also refrained from making personal insults. You may insult me if you like but like I said before, it has no place here.

"Now shut up. Oh, and i do know a strategy to beat your knights: snap your CD in half and make you eat it"

Again, say what you like. Here, you only have free speech as long as a moderator grants you that privelege. And that is not beating anything. That is just breaking something. But resort to voilence if you like. It is not in the least humorous unless I consider your own actions that of a fool.

Britt
03-25-2002, 06:05 AM
If you people can't refrain from insulting one another and resorting to common idiocy, I'm not afraid to close this thread and restrict your access to this forum. I've spoken to you about this thread before. My patience wears thin. Talk tactics and talk classes, but do NOT insult the intelligence/importance/logic of anyone.

Ferenan
03-25-2002, 06:36 AM
Hmm..since you INSIST on correcting my grammar..

"I'll be anal, if that is the expectation you have constructed for me(This statement makes no sense. well..not that it doesnt make sense, it just sounds funny. it should be "If that is what you expect of me"). You should first learn to form a contraction correctly; it is "you're", not "your". "Bogus" is a simple subjective comment(im pretty sure bogus is slang for wrong or incorrect). I have substanitaed(spelling error) my arguments, which is more than I can say for you and have also refrained from making personal insults(incorrect sentence structure, "I have substantiated and have also refrained from making personal insults" should be together, and THEN refer to me after you have finished the complete thought about yourself). You may insult me if you like but like I said before, it has no place here."

I never said that. I simply said that not everything has to has(spelling error, should be have) a weakness. Do not misconstrue what I say.


I type "your" because im lazy. Its not like you go around everyone that uses "2" instead of "to" to stop doing it. And i wasn't going to pick on your spelling mistakes but you insist on picking mine out.

Edit: Sorry Britt, i didn't see your post til after i posted. Im not really insulting him, just replying kind of.

Edit 2: Interestingly enough..i have a question actually..What would prevent my team from NOT being level 99, but level 98? And what would prevent me from using Fully grown Ninjas with the Calculator skill to cast Level three Death? or even use calculator skills on myself? Wouldnt that prevent you from healing yourself and dealing damage at the same time? Not to mention if im faster and i use level three death with all of my chars, i am bound to kill them all. And even if you spend your 1 or 2 guys left reviving your own, couldnt i just keep casting level three death til all your guys dropped?

Yuffie is a B****
03-25-2002, 07:32 AM
Yeah I admit you said some of the sutff before. But not all. And I'd LOVE to see your knights beat a well done monk. Hp restore and earth slash should not be underestimated. Oh and you also didn't mention priest and summoner

Avatar_1000
03-25-2002, 04:43 PM
Those knights could be beaten...... lancers, well trained monks. preistes, summoners..........Jump,earth slash,healing,zodiac, and if orlandu was on the party...

Summon Illusion
03-25-2002, 11:49 PM
I checked on this thread again seeing the name "Britt" being the recent replier but...who are you talking to? Or in general?
Well, it would result this way, right from the beginning it was asking for it...


Originally posted by Britt
If you people can't refrain from insulting one another and resorting to common idiocy, I'm not afraid to close this thread and restrict your access to this forum. I've spoken to you about this thread before. My patience wears thin. Talk tactics and talk classes, but do NOT insult the intelligence/importance/logic of anyone.

Summon Illusion
03-25-2002, 11:52 PM
I don't see the point in being technical, perhaps robots can do stuff like that but humans, have the potential to do something different. That's like the type of people that become calculators when they grow up.

The whole point of communication is the mesage. If everyone understands that your is referring as in you're, it works. More than enough people use that form, therefore the regular audience is used to it. How can one state that slang is incorrect? I find it rather...pointless.


Originally posted by Ferenan
Hmm..since you INSIST on correcting my grammar..

"I'll be anal, if that is the expectation you have constructed for me(This statement makes no sense. well..not that it doesnt make sense, it just sounds funny. it should be "If that is what you expect of me"). You should first learn to form a contraction correctly; it is "you're", not "your". "Bogus" is a simple subjective comment(im pretty sure bogus is slang for wrong or incorrect). I have substanitaed(spelling error) my arguments, which is more than I can say for you and have also refrained from making personal insults(incorrect sentence structure, "I have substantiated and have also refrained from making personal insults" should be together, and THEN refer to me after you have finished the complete thought about yourself). You may insult me if you like but like I said before, it has no place here."

I never said that. I simply said that not everything has to has(spelling error, should be have) a weakness. Do not misconstrue what I say.


I type "your" because im lazy. Its not like you go around everyone that uses "2" instead of "to" to stop doing it. And i wasn't going to pick on your spelling mistakes but you insist on picking mine out.

Edit: Sorry Britt, i didn't see your post til after i posted. Im not really insulting him, just replying kind of.

Edit 2: Interestingly enough..i have a question actually..What would prevent my team from NOT being level 99, but level 98? And what would prevent me from using Fully grown Ninjas with the Calculator skill to cast Level three Death? or even use calculator skills on myself? Wouldnt that prevent you from healing yourself and dealing damage at the same time? Not to mention if im faster and i use level three death with all of my chars, i am bound to kill them all. And even if you spend your 1 or 2 guys left reviving your own, couldnt i just keep casting level three death til all your guys dropped?

FatherOfChrono
03-26-2002, 01:42 AM
I don't understand why people take stuff other people say so seriously. I love tactics but come on guys, who gives a rip? Ninja is by far the best class without any help at all from any other group. TG Cid's squire is the best if you use help from other classes IMHO. cya guys: tongue:

mog42
03-26-2002, 02:20 AM
The lack of any long range attacks is what makes knights a weak class. They have high PA and they can break equipment and lower stats, but they need to be right next to an enemy to do anything. Classes like monks, lancers, ninjas, and samurai are able to deal long range damage. Some of these classes are so adept at long range attacks that they would be able to defeat a party of knights without any casualties. I am of course assuming no secondary skills and R/S/M from other classes for the purpose of discussion.

FatherOfChrono
03-26-2002, 02:23 AM
werd;)

Jay Ayanami
03-26-2002, 04:36 AM
Just so you know, I am the one who contacted the mod, so there is no reason for you to feel supported. In fact, I have included a chat transcript for all of your entertainment! I am sure you will find it funny since I found it hilarious. And since it is pretty much a slander against me, you should think it downright "put me in stitches" material. Of course I found it funny for many different reasons (Oh, and if you think that I may have altered it in any way, just IM me or e-mail me; I think you will find that my contact information has remained clearly posted. If not, AYANAMIJ is my AIM screen name and you can e-mail me at that hotmail extention!). Nevertheless ...

ONWARD!

I readily admit that I make typographical errors. I never denied that I was a mere human. I however rarely make spelling errors because if I am using a word, it is a word I am comfortable with using and am familiar with. If I need to use a word I am unfamiliar with, I look it up in the dictionary. At any rate, yes, I know I make typographical errors. Although I think you will find me a bit less touchy than yourself about being corrected for it. Oh, and on a side note, I do like the way I had originally phrased that sentence because I wanted to indicate that there was a construction of my persona which had already built.

Moving on ...

The Monk's Earth Slash would be renedered much less powerful since, unlike the computer, I have the sense not to group my people all in one line.

Summon Illusion, I don't know why you are here. Didn't you say that you were leaving this thread? You say you returned since Britt was here and then you continue to post in opposition to me later? How odd! I'll simply say that typing correctly here makes for good practice for typing correctly when it is necessary. Feel free to disagree, but I feel that there is no reason not to use correct grammar for the benefits if being right outweigh the benefits of being lazy.

Chrono - I agree. I don't see why people are taking things so personally. I do not mean to make personal comments and am often careful to phrase things that might be seen as pejorative in Modus Ponens format. However, people are so sensitive that they automatically assume it was an insult.

Mog - I know that they do not have any long range attacks (actually, they do, since I am including Orlandu); you will notice that I am using them in conjunction with the Calculator skill set which is not limited by radius.

P. S. I am fully aware that you need not be on level 99 to be good. However, I can calculate via any number of other factors. One way or another, I can attack.

---

el loco cebras: you cant ignore me you bastard
Ayanami J: Excuse me, who are you? Did you expect me to reply to someone who keeps calling me a bastard?
el loco cebras: i thought you might
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: Well, you would at least seem to owe me an explanation of why you think I am a bastard, though you have ever right to call me whatever you like.
Ayanami J: *every
el loco cebras: are you sure you want to knwo who i am
Ayanami J: It does not really matter, does it?
el loco cebras: yes it does
Ayanami J: I simply asked for a reason why you think I am a bastard.
Ayanami J: Okay, if that is how you feel.
el loco cebras: you want to know why i think you are a bastard?
Ayanami J: I don't see how I could not wonder.
el loco cebras: well you are black for starters
el loco cebras: and you oppose cactus
Ayanami J: I am not back, but go on.
Ayanami J: *black
el loco cebras: and knights are a suck ass job class
Ayanami J: No, they are quite good.
el loco cebras: that might narrow it down
el loco cebras: no they arent
Ayanami J: Oh, I figured you were from EOFF.
el loco cebras: lancers are better
Ayanami J: Lancers are good, yes.
el loco cebras: better than knights
el loco cebras: knights have to range
Ayanami J: You are free to that opinion.
Ayanami J: Yes, I know.
el loco cebras: appearantly not since you attack everyone
Ayanami J: I did not attack anyone. I am simply arguing a point, which I am free to do.
el loco cebras: no you didnt
el loco cebras: you attacked that person for misspelling a word
el loco cebras: then you started attacking everyoen else
Ayanami J: It was not an attack. I think the comment was preceded by my comment which is that I was only living up to that person's expectations.
Ayanami J: I believe that is what I said, at least.
el loco cebras: well if that was what you said then i guess hitler was just making a few comments too huh?
el loco cebras: you nazi
Ayanami J: If someone has already made up their mind about me, then I see no reason I should not live up to that expecation. All in all, that person has made up their mind about me, so I may as well not waste my time with niceties.
el loco cebras: i think you are a homo
el loco cebras: so you should go have sex with guys
Ayanami J: You seem to be more of a nazi than me, due to your apparent hatred of black people.
el loco cebras: and live to my expectations
Ayanami J: Petty insults, say what you like. You know nothing about me.
el loco cebras: i never said that
el loco cebras: you did
el loco cebras: nazi
Ayanami J: "el loco cebras: well you are black for starters"
el loco cebras: i know enough to tell you that you are a conceited bastard
el loco cebras: i said back
Ayanami J: Again, call me what you like. You really do not know anything about me.
el loco cebras: back from buttsex
el loco cebras: i know everything
el loco cebras: me and cactus
Ayanami J: That is not what you said.
el loco cebras: and robert fulmer
el loco cebras: i will learn you
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: What do you hope to accomplish by insulting me. This is just the internet. It is of no consequence.
el loco cebras: is that a challenge
Ayanami J: There is no need for me, or you, to get bent out of shape over a trivial debate at EOFF.
el loco cebras: it has nothing to do with the debate
el loco cebras: you were being an asshole to everyone
el loco cebras: for no reason
Ayanami J: Not at all, I am simply saying that perhaps that we have a disagreement over FFT, but it is no reason to hate eachother.
el loco cebras: becasue of their opinions
Ayanami J: Not at all.
el loco cebras: yes
Ayanami J: I have been civil, which is more than I can say for you at the moment.
el loco cebras: i am civil
el loco cebras: you are a bastard
Ayanami J: Well, did you not call me a homo, a nazi, and a bastard?
Ayanami J: That seems a bit uncivil to me.
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: You have already built a construct of evil for my character. I cannot convince you otherwise. I don't see what this is going to accomplish.
Ayanami J: I am sure that if you knew me in real life, you would find me a most pleasant and amicable person.
el loco cebras: stop talking all big
Ayanami J: "All big" - What do you mean by that?
el loco cebras: you attacked everyone for no reason
el loco cebras: you hypocrit
Ayanami J: I did not attack everyone for no reason.
el loco cebras: you arnet innocent in this
Ayanami J: In your humble opinion.
Ayanami J: It seems to me that everyone else is as much guilty of attacking me as I am of "attacking" them.
el loco cebras: why did you call people stupid who start sentences with "i think"
el loco cebras: you coon
Ayanami J: I simply stated a fact. In good rhetoric, you do not use a) the pronoun "I" b) the phrase "I think".
el loco cebras: no you didnt you lying bastard
Ayanami J: If you want to write persuasive prose, your thesis begins with a statement that you propose is true. Then you support it with evidence.
el loco cebras: you flat out attacked him
el loco cebras: you spearchucker
Ayanami J: No, I did not. Please read the post again. You will find that I was only speaking about proper writing in prose.
el loco cebras: you lie like an eagle
el loco cebras: and a spider
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: Eagles and spiders are animals and they do not lie.
el loco cebras: you called him a moron
el loco cebras: yes they do
Ayanami J: Please read my post.
el loco cebras: fine you tree spider
el loco cebras: Only morons with little knowldge of rhetoric begin a persuasive statement with "I think...". When you write an essay, especially a persuasive essay, you state your point of view as a fact. You don't say "It is my belief that Leviathan is the best because..."; you say "Leviathan is the best because...".

el loco cebras: how is calling someone a moron stating an opinion?
el loco cebras: you dont need to call him a moron
el loco cebras: you nazi
Ayanami J: "Only morons with little knowldge of rhetoric begin a persuasive statement with "I think..."."
Ayanami J: Read farther into that sentence.
Ayanami J: It was hypothetical. I did not say "and that is what you did".
el loco cebras: yes you did
el loco cebras: you racist
Ayanami J: I simply said that if someone were to take that stance, then they would be a moron.
Ayanami J: Racist? Hardly. I myself am an ethnic minority.
el loco cebras: there arent many bastards around these days huh?
el loco cebras: are the bastards supressed?
Ayanami J: I hardly think that "bastard" is an ethnic minority.
el loco cebras: ys it is
el loco cebras: you nazi
Ayanami J: Anyone of any race can be a "bastard".
el loco cebras: keep it up mexican
Ayanami J: I believe that since I am not of the "perfect aryan race" that I do not qualify to be a nazi.
Ayanami J: "el loco cebras: keep it up mexican" Now aren't you being racist?
el loco cebras: you must be chinese
Ayanami J: I am not Chinese.
el loco cebras: no i was stating an opinion
el loco cebras: you are something of the sort
Ayanami J: I think you are being a bit racist. It seems to me that you suggest any Asian must be Chinese or "something of the sort".
el loco cebras: i am speaking in terms of the third perosn character of the second degree proclimation
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: You don't know what you are talking about. "Proclimation" is not even a word.
el loco cebras: im done with you now
el loco cebras: yes it is
Ayanami J: "Proclamation, however, is".
el loco cebras: i made it up
Ayanami J: Oh, I see. Very well then.
el loco cebras: dont patronize me you bastard
Ayanami J: I am not patronizing you.
el loco cebras: yes you are
el loco cebras: i will learn you
Ayanami J: As you like it.
Ayanami J: Learn is not a verb.
el loco cebras: i am learning you a lesson
Ayanami J: If you warn me again, then I will block you.
el loco cebras: do it you bastard
el loco cebras: im everywhere

FatherOfChrono
03-26-2002, 04:49 AM
omg u guys .. get girlfriends: :mad2: (you) + :love: (your girlfriend) = :love::love: (more happiness than arguing on here IMHO (assuming your are both guys)).

Blackmage
03-26-2002, 10:21 PM
Jay, what exactly do your "knights" have equipped, and, more importantly, which of the "knights" are you using for your team?

screwtifa
03-26-2002, 11:53 PM
I don't think Knights are the best class by themselves. I think that they are very good if they have skills from other classes though. I have a knight that has jump level ten, and two swords. He's probably my best guy.

I think this could have all been settled if square would release fft for the computer, and have internet play.

Ferenan
03-27-2002, 01:18 AM
Umm..Jay, the point is..you corrected my grammar and your being picky and snooty. your "Replies" may be witty and thought out, but your just coming off as a snobby prick to me. I don't like snobby pricks. i like communicating with people who don't give a damn about their spelling as long as its understandable. And if your in the right, so many people wouldn't be disagreeing with you. What you think doesn't matter, the majority of thought does. Anyways, you didn't respond to my ninja idea at having them at level 98 and fully grown as ninjas having them cast level 3 death. I would have more speed than you and it would be hard to avoid death every single time. My ninjas would also have a faith of 3 making it hard to just hurt them with holy. As for equiptment..well..it doesnt matter much. All the best storebought stuff will do. An item with haste would help too.

Mwork
03-27-2002, 01:34 AM
Well, with a Faith of 3, you might as well forget about ever winning that battle via calculated Death.

It would work better for the Ninja to have high Faith (94 at most), be equipped with a Ribbon or any other piece of equipment that cancels Death, and Setiemson equipped.

The Ninja will take the first five turns. You can calculate a Lv. 3 Death and, your high Faith combined with the Knight's good Faith, and you're very likely to kill them all in that first turn. If it doesn't work, however, you have four more Ninja to cast the spell. :)

There is no way the Knights could survive that.......unless they have low Faith for some reason...... O_o

Ferenan
03-27-2002, 02:30 AM
Erhh right, thats what i meant. High faith :P But yeah, i would get first turn and since your based on using holy, its almost certain the ninjas would wipe them out.

Jay Ayanami
03-27-2002, 03:56 AM
"omg u guys .. get girlfriends: (you) + (your girlfriend) = (more happiness than arguing on here IMHO (assuming your are both guys))."

Well I already have one and I do not think that I need another. Even so, I fail to see how this pertains to the matter at hand.

"Jay, what exactly do your "knights" have equipped, and, more importantly, which of the "knights" are you using for your team?"

I have already stated this previously in the thread. You should have read it; it is not my responsibility to re-iterate. Let me make it clear that I am using the optimum Knight, so I am probably going to want Orlandu if we include special classes.

"I don't think Knights are the best class by themselves. I think that they are very good if they have skills from other classes though."

Which is basically what I am asserting.

"Umm..Jay, the point is..you corrected my grammar and your being picky and snooty. your "Replies" may be witty and thought out, but your just coming off as a snobby prick to me. I don't like snobby pricks."

Call me a prick if you like. Know at least that I have not lowered myself to sniveling at percieved insults. I admit my foibles and move on. You would do well to benefit from that lesson.

I never claimed that my arguments are well though out at all. I simply type them and let them go. Clearly, if I did organize them properly, then there would be far fewer typographical errors.

I only corrected your grammar because you made it clear initially what your attitude toward me was. I only lived up to that construct. I figure, in my mind, why not be an anal retentive "prick" if someone has already decided that I am and in all liklihood will not change their opinion?

"i like communicating with people who don't give a damn about their spelling as long as its understandable. And if your in the right, so many people wouldn't be disagreeing with you."

That it is what you like is no reason for me to conform to it. I am not here to impress you or anyone else. I am here because I find it entertaining and beneficial. On the second point, your logic is flawed and I think you will see how in the following sentece I post.

"What you think doesn't matter, the majority of thought does."

That is so totally wrong that it is ridiculous. In the early days of America, most every person believed that the place of the African American in society was as a slave. Even a great deal of black people themselves, having been brainwashed my whites, believed this was true. However, revolutionaries changed the way despite what the general consensus was. And what about Einstien? No one really thought the universe was relative until he developed many of the theories of relativity that we use today. Before Newton, we never had derrivation or integration. I think you see my point.

"Anyways, you didn't respond to my ninja idea at having them at level 98 and fully grown as ninjas having them cast level 3 death. I would have more speed than you and it would be hard to avoid death every single time."

Level 3 Death rarely works - ESPECIALLY when you have faith 3. In any case, I have Haste and can calculate by a different factor (probably CT). Ninjas have low HP and they would be easily wiped out with one wave of Calculated attacks. There are any number of spells to choose from though if necessary, I can resort to physical attacks. I need to simply stay out of your range or sacrifice one Knight to lure a Ninja or Ninjas into attack or Holy Explosion range.

"My ninjas would also have a faith of 3 making it hard to just hurt them with holy. As for equiptment..well..it doesnt matter much. All the best storebought stuff will do. An item with haste would help too."

If you had Haste, you would get your turn first in all liklihood. However, I doubt you would be able to attack me within range on the first turn. Typically the combatants are positioned at opposite sides of the fighting arena. See above for the rest of my strategy.

"There is no way the Knights could survive that.......unless they have low Faith for some reason...... O_o"

Ah yes, the infamous Mwork, who has been trying to bring me down from the very beginning. Good to see you. There is no reason to assume that it would kill all five Knights. Even if it did, I would only need to make a few alterations to my team in order to win. The key here is that everyone has been designing teams to specifically fight my team. Often they would fare well against my team but fail on many levels against other teams. Say, for instance, if I had an item that equipped against Death. In that case there would be little chance of you winning at all.

"Erhh right, thats what i meant. High faith :P But yeah, i would get first turn and since your based on using holy, its almost certain the ninjas would wipe them out."

Somehow, I find that hard to fathom as there is a big difference between 3 Faith and high Faith. It does not look typographical to me. I am not based on using Holy. I just use that attack because it works well in general. There are any number of attacks I can fall back on. Even so, I could always simply equip something that protects against Death!

Mwork
03-27-2002, 05:30 AM
'''''There is no reason to assume that it would kill all five Knights'''''

It's very likely, though. For your Math Skillin' Knights to be as effective with spells as you've said they are, they'd need a decently high Faith stat.....85 or so? And with the Ninja's Faith of 94, once calculated Death spell would have about an 80% chance of hitting. That's good on its own, but it's just about a guarantee it'll hit all the Knights if that 80% chance spell is calculated five times....




'''''Even if it did, I would only need to make a few alterations to my team in order to win.'''''

Yeah, I know that. But then, Ferenan would only have to adjust his strategy a tad (like, say, calculating Petrify, a more accurate spell, instead of Death) to beat that new party.

Then you could change the Knights some more to beat that party, then Ferenan could change his Ninja to beat the new Knights, and so on and so forth........I can't see where it would end....



'''''The key here is that everyone has been designing teams to specifically fight my team. Often they would fare well against my team but fail on many levels against other teams.'''''

Often, you say?

The party of Lancers, the Wizards, and the Ninja as well, would all fare very well against other teams, actually factually. They are all very good at handling varied groups of enemies.