FFXII: Vindicated by history?

[Wolf Kanno]

So it's been almost a decade since this game was released, how do you feel about it now that we've moved past the hype and backlash? Is it a good game that just got overhyped and disappointed an ever unpleasing FF fanbase or is it really a bad game that people have simply forgotten about because everyone has moved onto the next best thing. How have your own feelings about this game changed over the years if they have?

[Slothy]

First person that says it was over rated and terrible gets punched in the back of the head. This is one of the best FF titles ever made. Definitely top 3 material, and shits all over XIII.

[Pumpkin]

I enjoyed it. When it first came out, it had obviously made some changes and it didn't "feel" Final Fantasy to me. But the more I play it, the more I can appreciate it for what it is. The license board is excellent, and honestly is enough to bring me back to the game over and over, the world is great. It wasn't caught up in a love story, which was a nice change. The characters were solid enough.

My complaints would be that I miss the traditional FF battle system, there wasn't enough story in between long stretches of battle, and, at least for me, it got quite difficult at a certain point. That's good for people who like a challenge but I do not.

Overall though, solid game. Plan to play it again.

[Edge7]

When this game first came out, I loathed it. I hated the long spaces in between cutscenes, the scarce character development, always being short on cash, etc. Having played FFT and Vagrant Story, I've come to love FFXII's political nature, and I now view it as a tour through Ivalice's Golden Age; the world is now more important to me than the story or characters.

All in all, I've learned not to rush through the game for story's sake. Grinding's relaxing, and it's cool because you're rewarded with lore. I started reading a lot more of the flavor text, for the first time since my childhood. Heck, I even take the time to admire the towns I visit and think about what civilization the architecture of the area is referencing.

Heck, I don't even mind Vaan. Well, it's annoying when he just shows up in a cutscene that has nothing to do with him, but he's kinda become such a background character, even when I have to play as him in towns, I just reason it's because he's being sent on errands while the other characters are plotting and planning their next COA.

EDIT: I don't know how long you've been back Wolf, but it's nice to see you!

[Bolivar]

Continuing the trend, the game didn't feel like Final Fantasy at all but once you get past that, you have one of the most ambitious RPGs on the PS2, maybe of all time.

I think the real way it's been vindicated by history is with the following generation of consoles and the rise of WRPGs, we've seen how they struggled to translate the adventuring party to a real time setting - by either doing away with parties for a solo/action experience or simplifying things and giving you AI. XII's lasting achievement, to me, is how it gave you full control over every action of your party while allowing you to explore a semi - open world in real time. I wish they let this team make a PS3 game but hopefully they'll remake this soon or better yet, make something new happen on PS4 ^_^

[Freya]

I liked it the whole time. I tired the demo when it was released with Dragon Quest VIII and liked it from then on. I thought it had a good change of pace to the FF series. I think that it has changed in people's minds though since the whole Lightning Fiasco. Those games made people realize the brilliance of Captain Basche..... yeah.

[Jessweeee♪]

Most underrated title in the series if you ask me :bounce:

[Ayen]

First person that says it was over rated and terrible gets punched in the back of the head. This is one of the best FF titles ever made. Definitely top 3 material, and trouts all over XIII.

I'm gonna have to play this game again if Vivi is giving it a thumbs up.

I'm indifferent towards XII in general since I didn't play much of it. I got real into the beginning as I have stated several times before and the cool off period after that was enough to put me on ice and lose interest. Most of the hate I've seen garnered at it (outside of here) has mainly been due to Vaan and all the changes from the previous games. Like the ships being named after summons. How dare ye! Or something.

[Vyk]

I've been tempted to retry this game lately now that I managed to get my PS2 to display properly on my HDTV. Playing through a Tales game with the girlfriend lately though so it'll have to wait. Plus playing a Persona game in my down time. So yeah. No free time for old games for a while. But Vaan was the biggest turn-off to me. I hear once I make it to the point where he's not a necessary character I can pretty much ignore his existence and enjoy the game properly

[Skyblade]

First person that says it was over rated and terrible gets punched in the back of the head. This is one of the best FF titles ever made. Definitely top 3 material, and trouts all over XIII.

It's overrated and terrible.

The combat is a complete joke, with inconsistent rules and poor pacing.

The characters are ridiculous, with several of them serving no role in the plot.

The plot itself is a joke. There is no depth to the villain, and no subtlety or

The writing can be utterly painful at times, with so many awkward scenes and rushed development.

The open world, while allowing massive exploration and making it feel like a real place, also utterly destroyed the games pacing and ruined character growth and development.

The sidequests are great, but are vastly outnumbered by the incredibly boring marks. Go here, kill this. Yay?



One of the very few Final Fantasy games that I just didn't care about enough to finish.


Edit: Nope, haven't complained enough.

The enemies are almost all entirely forgettable. The only bosses I remember were Fury, Humbaba, and Gilgamesh, because they were the only ones that had any personality.

I only vaguely even remember the Judges. I know I fought them, but I can't tell you anything about them. One was the boss of an airship we were captured on, that's as close as I can get.

The entire Zodiac Spear thing is designed moronically. No way of knowing what chests to avoid, no explanation why. Because we need to sell strategy guides.

The entire Bazaar system is painfully designed, and led to one of the most frustrating loot grinds in the series.

The License Board was one of the worst customization systems the series has had, being both too restrictive to allow actual customization, and too easy to max to actually bother worrying about.

The "I'm Captain Basch" scene is one of the worst pieces of writing in the series.

The Gambit system is far too restrictive, and is even worse for blocking off ninety percent of it early on.

"Difficulty" is a joke, consisting of nothing but high health bars and RNG, with Yiazmat being the pinnacle of this pathetic design.

[Freya]

I don't like your judgement and I strongly disagree with your assessment.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/472cd7671ed5bbce7305f88952ecc14e/tumblr_mix505mZW31qbn69no1_500.gif

[Skyblade]

I don't like your judgement and I strongly disagree with your assessment.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/472cd7671ed5bbce7305f88952ecc14e/tumblr_mix505mZW31qbn69no1_500.gif

You're right, I didn't complain enough. I've fixed that for now with an edit, but there is so much more this game did badly.

Which is a shame, because I do like quite a bit about it. Almost every character that I can remember except Vaan is good (Vaan is worthless until other games), the Quickening system is a good idea, Ivalice is a fantastic world that would be brilliant if they just fixed the pacing problems, and there is a lot of promise in the Gambit system if it were more refined.

It's just a shame it didn't fulfill any of its potential.

[Freya]

I have noticed this a lot about you recently skyblade, you're extremely critical and often stretch many common "issues" of various games, systems and general gaming topics to the negatives. I feel what you have done here about XII could be done about every FF game. In fact I feel one could pick apart any game due to personal preference and if they feel like they had ants in their pants that day.

Maybe you should stop looking at everything so negatively!

https://31.media.tumblr.com/7fc4f08839187c7cfce58e54b4a7a541/tumblr_mrigqpXXUI1s4e0zto1_500.gif

[Wolf Kanno]

But he's an FF fan, that's just what we do. Seriously, let me go into the FFX or XIII forum and let me tell you how I really feel about them.

[maybee]

Nope, but is it ever loved on this forum.


I would say maybe more cult following, or has a fandom, but not for sure not one of the most hated Fin-Del Fantasy games anymore.



I still hate it, but who knows, maybe one day I'll be joining the fans. c; YOU NEVER KNOW~

[Freya]

Maybe you should all pep up a bit!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100417002355/finalfantasy/images/0/0e/Nono.jpg

[Fynn]

I loved it from the start but didn't really understand why until my second play through. I love how different it is. I loved the world, the music, the battle system - I really think FF needed more of that sort of things. And I really did enjoy the story and characters. Here's where Skyblade and I completely disagree - I think the writing is one of the more subtle, refined and mature within the whole series and the characters seem much more like actual human beings than in any game befor, especially X :D

And I'm glad more people have come to appreciate it lately. It's like Jess said - this is probably the most underrated title. At the very least, it's the most divisive. Too bad Japan still doesn't like it. That probably means we'll never see an HD remake.

[Ayen]

But he's an FF fan, that's just what we do. Seriously, let me go into the FFX or XIII forum and let me tell you how I really feel about them.

*splash cold water on Wolf Kanno*

[Wolf Kanno]

You're new here aren't you?

http://home.eyesonff.com/general-final-fantasy/122499-wolf-kannos-swear-jar-thread.html

[Ayen]

You're new here aren't you?

Yes.

[Freya]

Kanno is our resident fanboy/hater/used to be a mod until he thought real life was cool. He may dislike something but he can dislike it with well reasoned thoughts and evidence instead of just proclaiming that something is lame. We missed him.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well then Welcome to the forum! :cheers:

[Ayen]

But how did he fix the Jusenkyo curse?

[Elpizo]

Anyone with a good head on his/her shoulders knows Skyblade's opinion on XII is wrong anyhow. It's an objective fact that XII is awesome. :p

[Fynn]

Now now, everyone has the right to their personal nitpicks. I openly dislike FFX for things many people love it for. Is any of us objectively wrong? No, but to me it seems they are, and to them it seems I am. I can speak about how it sucks at length, but others won't change their minds. I think XII has subtle writing, Skyblade disagrees, and I don't think anyone can actually objectively decide which is the case.

[Psychotic]

I'd have to replay it, but my feelings of "ugh, smurf that dull grindfest" have not yet subsided.

[Elpizo]

Now now, everyone has the right to their personal nitpicks. I openly dislike FFX for things many people love it for. Is any of us objectively wrong? No, but to me it seems they are, and to them it seems I am. I can speak about how it sucks at length, but others won't change their minds. I think XII has subtle writing, Skyblade disagrees, and I don't think anyone can actually objectively decide which is the case.

The ":p" at the end of my post was an indicator I was only kidding. ;) If Skyblade doesn't like XII, that's his opinion. I happen to not like VI, even though 90% of the FF fanbase would happily skin me alive for that, hee hee.

...

XII is still awesome, though. :D

[Jiro]

Being between XI which a fair few people panned for being an MMO and XIII which most people (?) thought was rubbish must have an impact. Maybe they like it more for being a beacon of light. Maybe they hate it in a dull "that time kinda sucked" haze.

I liked it. It was good. There are a lot of issues, maybe more than most of my favourites, but I think it was a good, mature, innovative Fin-Del Fantasy title.

EDIT: regarding Zodiac Spear: you want everything handed to you? The "good old days" didn't have strategy guides and didn't tell you shit. You found stuff through luck and curiosity and if you didn't find it you didn't care.

[Sephex]

I liked it back then and I like it now. This is a game that I been meaning to replay for quite some time. It's not for a lack of interest, but for a lack of time/wanting to play new games/wanting to play old games for the first time/replaying old favorites/ADULT LIFE/BUSY!!!/hsdjfhasdj;la

But seriously, I welcomed the dramatic change in everything from the storytelling to the battle system. In fact, I bet if I play it now I'll have tons of more fun.

[Miss Mae]

My love affair with FFXII started the moment I played it and has not ceased, so for me history has done nothing but sustain my feelings of joy towards the title. I believe most/all of my reasons why this is the case have already been listed, but:


the game was creative and interesting
the plot contained subtleties and depth
the characters were interesting and were not simply reboots of similar archetypes as are often found in not just FF games but RPGs in general (oh man I have too many feels regarding Balthier and Fran)
the combat system took a little getting used to but when I looked beyond the 'It's not what I'm used to!' feeling I found having to strategise outside of battle when setting up gambits to be incredibly intricate and challenging, but also very fun (I had some lovely flashbacks to gambits when I played The Last Story, pausing battles to set up instructions and whatnot, although I still feel FFXII did a better job of this style of battle because characters generally did as you told them to, which is an important detail)

I've spoken to a lot of people who have mixed feelings towards this game, but it will always hold a very special place in my heart.

[Fynn]

the characters were interesting and were not simply reboots of similar archetypes as are often found in not just FF games but RPGs in general (oh man I have too many feels regarding Balthier and Fran)



BalthierxFran is my ultimate OTP :love:

[Miss Mae]

the characters were interesting and were not simply reboots of similar archetypes as are often found in not just FF games but RPGs in general (oh man I have too many feels regarding Balthier and Fran)




BalthierxFran is my ultimate OTP :love:

They're both smokin' hot, aren't explicitly together, are both brilliantly independent in their own right and are such a fantastically atypical couple. I honestly cannot get enough of them.

[maybee]

the characters were interesting and were not simply reboots of similar archetypes as are often found in not just FF games but RPGs in general (oh man I have too many feels regarding Balthier and Fran)




BalthierxFran is my ultimate OTP :love:

But isn't Fran like a rabbit/ bunny rabbit chick ???

[Fynn]

That's racist, maybs.

[Miss Mae]

the characters were interesting and were not simply reboots of similar archetypes as are often found in not just FF games but RPGs in general (oh man I have too many feels regarding Balthier and Fran)




BalthierxFran is my ultimate OTP :love:

But isn't Fran like a rabbit/ bunny rabbit chick ???

She's a viera. But yes, bunny ears are the height of fashion.



52625

[maybee]

That's racist, maybs.

I like Fran, she was only of the very few characters that I liked, her and Larsa.

But rabbit + man


errr, getting kinda bestially -ish

[Freya]

She looks more woman than bunny.

Its okay to not like furrirs, there are a lot of people who don't

[Quindiana Jones]

When I played it, I thought the pacing of the story was poor even though the plot and delivery were both excellent. I loved every other aspect that I can now remember.

Now, looking back, I've come to the conclusion that despite having an excellent plot that was well-told when told, the pacing was pretty awful, but every other part of the game I can currently remember was wonderful.

[Miss Mae]

When I played it, I thought the pacing of the story was poor even though the plot and delivery were both excellent. I loved every other aspect that I can now remember.

Now, looking back, I've come to the conclusion that despite having an excellent plot that was well-told when told, the pacing was pretty awful, but every other part of the game I can currently remember was wonderful.

Issues with pacing are an incredibly valid complaint in my book. I think my experiences with MMOs where I used to run around and avoid the storyline for ages anyway made this aspect of FFXII either less obvious or less bothersome to me.

[Kalevala]

It gets a lot of flak, but I really don't think it was THAT bad. I love the battle system and the art design, but the plot and characters just didn't do it for me.

[Pumpkin]

Aren't all Viera female, or am I misremembering?

Because if they are, who helps make their babies? Do they reproduce asexually? Does having relations with other races lead to Viera babies?

[Wolf Kanno]

I read a long time ago that there are males but they apparently live in their own society and the two sexes only meet to reproduce.

[Pumpkin]

Oh, interesting

[Bolivar]

I loved it from the start but didn't really understand why until my second play through. I love how different it is. I loved the world, the music, the battle system - I really think FF needed more of that sort of things. And I really did enjoy the story and characters. Here's where Skyblade and I completely disagree - I think the writing is one of the more subtle, refined and mature within the whole series and the characters seem much more like actual human beings than in any game befor, especially X :D

And I'm glad more people have come to appreciate it lately. It's like Jess said - this is probably the most underrated title. At the very least, it's the most divisive. Too bad Japan still doesn't like it. That probably means we'll never see an HD remake.

Post needs quoting. I always hate when people nudge you on to keep playing games you don't like with promises of "it gets better." But as disgusting as it sounds, XII really is a game you need to play twice to truly begin appreciating just what it did for RPGs. I replayed the thing 3 or 4 times in the first year or so of it being out.

[Skyblade]

I loved it from the start but didn't really understand why until my second play through. I love how different it is. I loved the world, the music, the battle system - I really think FF needed more of that sort of things. And I really did enjoy the story and characters. Here's where Skyblade and I completely disagree - I think the writing is one of the more subtle, refined and mature within the whole series and the characters seem much more like actual human beings than in any game befor, especially X :D

And I'm glad more people have come to appreciate it lately. It's like Jess said - this is probably the most underrated title. At the very least, it's the most divisive. Too bad Japan still doesn't like it. That probably means we'll never see an HD remake.

Post needs quoting. I always hate when people nudge you on to keep playing games you don't like with promises of "it gets better." But as disgusting as it sounds, XII really is a game you need to play twice to truly begin appreciating just what it did for RPGs. I replayed the thing 3 or 4 times in the first year or so of it being out.

I played through till past the Great Crystal, and it hasn't gotten better yet. "Appreciate what it did for RPGs"? I'm sorry, I don't appreciate removing almost all of the most important aspects and replacing them with the mindless grind and repetition of the standard MMO.

[Freya]

MMO's revolutionized the RPG genre and if you think otherwise, you're misguided. The sheer amount of content included in MMOs shows how engrossing a RPG can be. XII was one of the first to take MMO elements and apply them to a single player game. Now it has drastically affected (not just XII of course) the genre as a whole.

Example: Dragon Age.
Dragon Age is a freaking awesome game. It shares similar elements with what XII did. Illusion of an open world, party members with active combat. Etc etc.

You obviously haven't played too many MMOs because if you have you'd know they aren't all "mindless grind and repetition". Korean MMOs are, yes. Because they like the grind. But most popular MMOs, aren't. And they have a huge amount of story and content that sorry, a standard game anymore can't compete with. Check out WoW. It has the lore from the first 3 warcraft games. It has spin off books. It has comics. It is going on its 5th expansion. For one game (essentially) Any game or series that tries to emulate that amount of content is okay in my book. It makes for a more engrossing world.

Take Skyrim as another example. The Elder scroll series is FULL of lore. That series itself has been around forever and has been taking on a "MMO" feel. It goes along the same boat.

Discarding this one game because it was too much like an MMO is silly and foolish when countless other games since then were successful when playing off it. FF XII was just one of the first to do so, so it was riding a bike up hill for fans.

[Skyblade]

I'm not discounting the game for taking elements from MMOs, I'm discounting the game for taking the wrong elements from MMOs. Poor pacing, pitiful story, meaningless grinds, repetitive combat, etcetera.

[Jessweeee♪]

meaningless grinds
repetitive combat
you are on a final fantasy board did you get lost

[Skyblade]

Before Final Fantasy XII, no Final Fantasy game had nearly as much tedious frelling grinding as XII did. Since then, it has only gotten worse. XIII and Dissidia may both put XII to shame in regards to the amount of grinding they require, but it all started with XII.


Let me talk for a moment about things the game could have taken from MMOs that would have actually made the game better.

-Make the world worth exploring.

Go find someone running a pirate legacy server for World of Warcraft, and try out the game. Play through the first few zones, and you'll discover something very quickly. The world is absolutely chock-full of content. Every zone has a half dozen NPCs outside the town wanting help or quests done. You can explore to find new questgivers, and new NPCs to talk to.

Ivalice has none of this. From the moment you step out of the town, that's it. You are going to encounter no sentient life until you step back into town. Ivalice is completely devoid of anything interesting. You have almost no incentive to explore (you might find an Esper that's about it), and you just rush from point to point with no interest in the world because it's absolutely mind numbing. That's right, they made Ivalice boring. The towns are fantastic, everything else is just dull.

Now, this may be the case in other Final Fantasy games. The problem is, most Final Fantasy games have a world map, to streamline out the boring process of running from town to town and make it take only a hundredth the time it takes in FFXII. Dungeon runs are actually saved for dungeons, instead of being the entirety of the world outside of towns.


-Social interaction

There are two ways to play MMOs. When you play alone, you're alone. There is no one else there, and the mood is you off adventuring on your own. The other way to play is with a group. When you group up, you are never alone, and the game is never silent. The party constantly chats back and forth, party members do stupid things, jokes are made, and the adventure is more enjoyable.

They could bring this aspect to the games. Have your party members banter and talk as they explore the world. Give us character moments and dialogue to serve as a backdrop to the mindlessly dull tasks that the game sets us at. But, no. We get hour after painstaking hour of dull combat and dungeon crawling, interspersed with a few brief minutes of cutscenes that try to suddenly make us care about these automatons as individuals.


-Give you a reason to fight.

MMOs go to great length to make fighting interesting. You always get something out of it. Experience, gold, loot, whatever. They also endeavor to make the fighting mechanics themselves interesting (and I really don't need to explain how badly FFXII failed at this). The game knows you're going to be fighting a lot, so they make sure it's worthwhile. You'll be constantly acquiring goodies. Also, if you are too overpowered to get much use out of enemies, they're far more likely to ignore you.

In FFXII... Yeah, no. Not only is the combat agonizingly dull, but there is no reason for almost any of it. You get so little gil or item drops that combat is essentially worthless, and you spend the majority of the game running or trying to avoid everything, unless you're grinding for a particular drop or stolen item. Oh, but even when you're level 100, those level 1 wolves will still charge at you from across the zone and make sure that you have to engage in a fight or specifically run away.



These are just a few of the ways the game could have taken ideas from MMOs and actually implemented them well and improved the game. Instead, they took most of the worst and most annoying concepts, and then poorly executed them.

[Freya]

Did we play the same game?

[Edge7]

Sounds like a difference in taste, Skyblade.

I understand your points, I really do; that was how I felt when I first played the game back when I was in seventh grade, when the game first came out. Hell, I met one of my best friends by arguing over how the last two FF's were mediocre at best, and that I even thought FFXII was the worse of the two.

I guess as time went, I started looking for other things in JRPGs. Maybe I loved reading Alexander O. Smith's localization work, maybe I loved how straight faced the entire cast acted, maybe I loved the distinct lack of melodrama I typically associate with the genre, maybe I started to find the tedium of level grinding to be soothing akin to why some people play games like Harvest Moon or Animal Crossing. Whatever the reason, FFXII clicked for me, and personally, I'm glad I took the opportunity to revisit it.

I won't tell you what you can or can't like; hell, I don't even know when the last time you attempted to give it another chance occurred, if it ever occurred. But I respect your opinion, and hope that if in the slight chance you do replay the game; there might be some redeeming quality you find.

[Skyblade]

I won't tell you what you can or can't like; hell, I don't even know when the last time you attempted to give it another chance occurred, if it ever occurred. But I respect your opinion, and hope that if in the slight chance you do replay the game; there might be some redeeming quality you find.

The redeeming quality is the setting. Ivalice is always awesome. The towns in this game are wonderful. So many people to talk to, so much to see. Rabanastre is great. The rest of the game just doesn't hold my interest.

Unfortunately for FFXII, there are tons of other Ivalice games. I can play this one longer than I can Tactics, at least, but I'm still more likely to jump into FFTA or FFTA2 if I want to experience the world again. I'd be more likely to play Revenant Wings, except I've reached a point where it's basically unplayable, so I leave it alone as well.

[Pumpkin]

You don't like Tactics even?

[Fynn]

You don't like Tactics even?

:stare:

[Pumpkin]

What are you staring at me for, stare at him!

[Wolf Kanno]

Skyblade has made his feelings heard about FFTactics many a time on these forums. Don't encourage him.

[Fynn]

What are you staring at me for, stare at him!

I am! That quote was for context.

[Pumpkin]

Oh, okay

[Skyblade]

You don't like Tactics even?

I like about half of Tactics, and the other half I absolutely abhor. The game does so many good things, and then the rest is filled with incomprehensible design choices and plot elements that ruin the game for me. I want to like Tactics, and I keep playing it every so often just to see if maybe this time will be better, but it never lasts more than an hour or two.


Skyblade has made his feelings heard about FFTactics many a time on these forums. Don't encourage him.

Too late. But, yeah, there are probably threads full of my ranting about that game in the Tactics forum.

Here's one. (http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-tactics/147591-game-mechanics.html)
Here's another. (http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-tactics/147699-criticize-game.html)
More. (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-final-fantasy/146892-worst-character-ever-4.html)
Still more. (http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-tactics/145613-fucking-algus.html)
Yep, even more. (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-final-fantasy/146892-worst-character-ever-4.html)
Hey, more rage against this game, but tempered with a genuine request for help. (http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-tactics/147408-progression-trap.html)
Probably not the last, but I'm too lazy to hunt down any more after this. (http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-tactics/130688-ramza-3.html)

Tactics is a good game, but some choices I hate just completely ruin it for me.

[Freya]

Wow you post a lot about things you dislike. When I dislike something I may mention something but then I move on. You should pep up! :kaoclove: less hate, more love.

[Fynn]

It doesn't work that way. Some things may bother you to the point something becomes unenjoyable. I fully understand Skyblade in this, despite fully disagreeing with him about XII. Put me in the X forum, and you get a similar result :D

[Skyblade]

Wow you post a lot about things you dislike. When I dislike something I may mention something but then I move on. You should pep up! :kaoclove: less hate, more love.

Well, Tactics is a unique case, because I really do keep trying to like it. So every six months or so, I give the game a try, and I just come on here to vent about all the awful things about it when I do.

XII was just boring. Uninteresting combat, uninteresting world exploration, uninteresting story, and several uninteresting characters. It was always a chore to push through from one section to the next, the plot never held my interest, the grinding was absolutely ridiculous, and I just gave up eventually.

I only posted here because I felt like the thread title was somehow suggesting that the ire directed towards this game wasn't earned, which is completely untrue.

[Depression Moon]

I liked the game a lot when it first came out and I'm not sure if I should still express an opinion since I haven't played it since at least 2008. The character development and pacing I felt were poor and the music was forgettable, but the battle system made up well for that. I was addicted to it in this game. The game also provided some challenge that you don't really get out of the modern FF games. I still remember the basement level of The Pharos. I couldn't survive more than three minutes down there even with every buff on my party members. I put in over 300 hours of that game, so it was fun for me despite its flaws.

[Wolf Kanno]

I largely feel its been vindicated, I don't see nearly as much hate as it got back when it first released and lately, like this thread for instance, I'm seeing more people look back and say "You know, it was actually pretty good". While I can agree with Skyblade about some of the gameplay issues, I don't feel they ruined the game as badly as he feels they do but I will disagree with the story of XII. Though I feel it's story has problems, I do feel its one of the better entries in the series and probably the last well written game to sport the Final Fantasy title in its name now that I think about it.

Regardless, I feel that XII has largely ended its hazing period and fans think more positively about it than they did in 2006. It will be interesting to see if XIII will get the same treatment. I guess that largely depends on how the JRPG genre is faring in the next couple of years.

[Skyblade]

Let me take a moment and talk about some of the game's good points, because it does have a lot.

I like almost all of the main characters. With the exception of Vaan, I like nearly everyone. I also think that most of them were well integrated into the story, with the exceptions of Vaan (again) and Fran. Fran serves as mostly a plot device and exposition dump, unfortunately. But you really don't care, because her voice acting is excellent and her relationship with Balthier is just brilliant.

I really like the designs in this game. Enemies, characters, landscapes... They're all excellent. Ok, so Basch's potholder annoys me a little, but that really is a very minor thing. This game looks stunning.

I love the Judge design. Yes, it's another design point, but it bears mentioning. Everyone loves the Judges, they're awesome. I wish they had more involvement with the story and more fleshing out of their personalities. I also feel that the political story basis would have been a lot stronger had the Judges been the real foe instead of Vayne. Partially because Vayne had no depth to him, and partially because he was all alone. There was no real conflict or drama with Vayne, he was just the villain, and you were there to stop him. One of the few strong story moments was when the Dawn Shard was claimed and experimented on, in an attempt by one of the Judges (can't recall his name) to use its power to overthrow Vayne and take control of the Empire. That was awesome. That's how a political story needs to be done, you need multiple power blocks clashing with each other and creating tension and action, with the scale of nations in the balance.

I like the weapon variety. I hate the incredibly broken weapon progression, but I love the number of different types and how differently they all feel. I wish there was a little bit more balance, as I do feel (and I think most will agree) that there are a few "best" weapon types, but I still do love the options it gives you.

I like the sidequests, and I like the plot heavy hunts. I wish there were more hunts which had stories and cutscenes involved, because those were really fun. And the actual sidequests, like helping the Viera fighter join Clan Centurio, were awesome (though unfortunately massively overshadowed by the mark hunting).


That said, the good points aren't enough to vindicate it. It still deserves all the hate it gets, and it still is a broken and boring mess to play through. People may not hate on it that much, because it's no longer the new bad game (criticism dropped off when everyone went to complain about XIII, it's not exactly anything "new"), but most people still think it had a ton of negative points, and aren't nearly as likely to pick it up and replay it as they are the franchise classics.

[Elpizo]

It still deserves all the hate it gets.

No it doesn't, and that's all that needs to be said on the matter.

[Skyblade]

It still deserves all the hate it gets.

No it doesn't, and that's all that needs to be said on the matter.

It still deserves a lot of the criticism that is hurled against it, as a great deal of it is valid. How much its flaws detract from the game is of course a question of personal preference.

[maybee]

Let me take a moment and talk about some of the game's good points, because it does have a lot.

I like almost all of the main characters. With the exception of Vaan, I like nearly everyone. I also think that most of them were well integrated into the story, with the exceptions of Vaan (again) and Fran. Fran serves as mostly a plot device and exposition dump, unfortunately. But you really don't care, because her voice acting is excellent and her relationship with Balthier is just brilliant.

I really like the designs in this game. Enemies, characters, landscapes... They're all excellent. Ok, so Basch's potholder annoys me a little, but that really is a very minor thing. This game looks stunning.

I love the Judge design. Yes, it's another design point, but it bears mentioning. Everyone loves the Judges, they're awesome. I wish they had more involvement with the story and more fleshing out of their personalities. I also feel that the political story basis would have been a lot stronger had the Judges been the real foe instead of Vayne. Partially because Vayne had no depth to him, and partially because he was all alone. There was no real conflict or drama with Vayne, he was just the villain, and you were there to stop him. One of the few strong story moments was when the Dawn Shard was claimed and experimented on, in an attempt by one of the Judges (can't recall his name) to use its power to overthrow Vayne and take control of the Empire. That was awesome. That's how a political story needs to be done, you need multiple power blocks clashing with each other and creating tension and action, with the scale of nations in the balance.

I like the weapon variety. I hate the incredibly broken weapon progression, but I love the number of different types and how differently they all feel. I wish there was a little bit more balance, as I do feel (and I think most will agree) that there are a few "best" weapon types, but I still do love the options it gives you.

I like the sidequests, and I like the plot heavy hunts. I wish there were more hunts which had stories and cutscenes involved, because those were really fun. And the actual sidequests, like helping the Viera fighter join Clan Centurio, were awesome (though unfortunately massively overshadowed by the mark hunting).


You seem to like XII alot more than I do

:|


people may not hate on it that much, because it's no longer the new bad game (criticism dropped off when everyone went to complain about XIII

Yeah I do think that the Final Fantasy XIII games helped Final Fantasy XII and helped the game appear more attractive and more enjoyable.

I would still prefer to play XIII-2 over XII anyday though.


And yes


and Tactics

[Bolivar]

Wow you post a lot about things you dislike.

He's turning into Vivi22! :p

Also, you probably shouldn't talk about poorly implemented game design if you're going to mention how much you like FFTA shortly afterwards!

[Skyblade]

Wow you post a lot about things you dislike.

He's turning into Vivi22! :p

Also, you probably shouldn't talk about poorly implemented game design if you're going to mention how much you like FFTA shortly afterwards!

At least FFTA had consistent mechanics.

But that's off topic, and I think I've talked as much about XII that I care to.

[Slothy]

Wow you post a lot about things you dislike.

He's turning into Vivi22! :p

Hey now, I post about all kinds of things I like. Feel free to chat with me about Just Cause 2, Vanquish, Persona 3, Tales of Symphonia, Any FF which is greater than, and divisible by, 3, The odd numbered MGS titles, Demons and Dark Souls, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, Mega Man, any Mario game released before 1997, and a hundred other things that aren't FFX or XIII sometime.

It just happens to be that a lot of people who make gaming threads consistently have awful taste. :p

[Bolivar]

Wow you post a lot about things you dislike.

He's turning into Vivi22! :p

Hey now, I post about all kinds of things I like. Feel free to chat with me about Just Cause 2, Vanquish, Persona 3, Tales of Symphonia, Any FF which is greater than, and divisible by, 3, The odd numbered MGS titles, Demons and Dark Souls, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, Mega Man, any Mario game released before 1997, and a hundred other things that aren't FFX or XIII sometime.

It just happens to be that a lot of people who make gaming threads consistently have awful taste. :p

Wouldn't have it any other way!

[CimminyCricket]

I didn't like the game for anything more than just the voice overs, but when I finally did get around to trying to beat the game I loved it. There's definitely a lot of challenges to be had in this game. I haven't been able to beat any of the post game bosses, but one day I will. :c)

The political theme behind it was spectacular.

[Loony BoB]

Of all the Final Fantasy games that I have mixed feelings over, I liked this one the most. I liked the characters although I don't feel they did enough with them. I liked the fantastic world, but I never really found myself actually caring about the story, or even feeling that it mattered if I cared or not.

I feel this story - and the characters - had a lack of emotion to it. I'm not talking about love. I could feel that the characters were experiencing emotion, but I felt that they all were excellent at bottling it up completely. Their faces never changed, there were few smiles throughout. I felt the music was great, but again, I don't feel it ever lended itself to the story - just to the environments (further pushing that emphasis on more world, less story thing).

It was also a very political story at times and that kind of thing bores me. I get that other people like it, though.

The battle system was alright. I had no qualms with that. I liked fighting in the game well enough.

I adored the reward for exploration, I adored the various races, although I feel they didn't play into the races as much as they could have - ie all major characters were human apart from Fran, and it really irks me that I have only just noticed that.

I think for me this was like watching a good story that drags on just a little, but it still worth watching. It isn't emotional, but it is intelligent. There is a place for games like that, definitely. It just didn't wow me like many other games, though, because there were few moments where I felt wowed. It felt very serious, and I feel it needed a bit mroe... well, drama, in the theatrical sense.

[maybee]

TV Tropes believes that this game is vindicated by history in the 'your mileage might vary'



I really believe that they have it right. Whether this game is vindicated by history is up to you, and what you have experienced on the internet, and whom you hang out with online and offline.