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Jiro
04-11-2014, 04:01 PM
I've brought up similar topics before, but I have a different, related question: what does Zanarkand look like once Tidus leaves? Is Dream Zanarkand a persistent world? Or is it a kind of Groundhog Day?

The whole Jecht getting to Spira by falling through some temporal vortex out in the ocean while training is a bit bollocks imo but it's a satisfactory enough excuse for how he left, but the idea that Auron could just cruise through riding on Sin's back is a little bit bonkers.

Karifean
04-11-2014, 04:12 PM
You know how when your Valefor dies it just takes a while (a bunch of battles) and then it's magically and instantly back to full health?

Yeah, maybe that.

Jinx
04-11-2014, 04:21 PM
You bring up a really good point that's always bothered me: Jecht appearing in Spira. It's total shit.

Carl the Llama
04-11-2014, 04:43 PM
You bring up a really good point that's always bothered me: Jecht appearing in Spira. It's total shit.

Maybe the fayth moved him there, like a summon.

As for the city, I think that it was as Karifean says, magically restored.

Skyblade
04-11-2014, 06:50 PM
You bring up a really good point that's always bothered me: Jecht appearing in Spira. It's total trout.

Dream Zanarkand is an Aeon. It is an actual place, located far out at sea. Hecht went out to sea, and eventually wound up on Spira.

There was no "temporal vortex", nothing mystical. He just sailed out to sea and wound up in a new location.

Sin, probably while Jecht still hand some control, carried Auron there (Auron was dead anyway, so Sin wouldn't exactly do anything to him). The same way, just moving across the water.

Goldenboko
04-11-2014, 07:05 PM
Skyblade has this 100% correct. There's actually a really telling line that's suppose to hint you in if you didn't put it together towards the end of FFX. Before you fight Sin's head above Bevelle, you talk with Yuna and she asks "what is Yu Yevon summoning inside of Sin?" and Tidus answers "The dream of the Fayth."

Here's an Ultimania Map that depicts Dream Zanarkand as in the middle of an Ocean:
http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/images/thumb/800px-Dzproof.jpg

Jessweeee♪
04-11-2014, 08:32 PM
I just imagined that he went all Truman and kept sailing 'til he hit something.

Sephiroth
04-12-2014, 12:28 AM
I don't know if a Dream becoming corporeal after being dreamed/summoned can be called "not mystical".

Skyblade
04-12-2014, 12:37 AM
I don't know if a Dream becoming corporeal after being dreamed/summoned can be called "not mystical".

I didn't say there was nothing mystical about Dream Zanarkand, I said there was nothing mystical about Jecht reaching Spira. He literally just got in a boat and drifted there.

Sephiroth
04-12-2014, 12:50 AM
I see. I thought the sentence with the temporal vortex was meant as overall connection for Spira and Zanarkand, not just in context with Jecht going through the vortex that does not exist. Many people think exactly that when the see the beginning and hear Rikku's story and then wonder about the whole story as it truly is.

Crop
04-12-2014, 01:22 AM
Why is Jecht the only one who has ever done that? You'd think explorers would be doing it all the time.

Also, if Jecht was already just a dream of the Fayth then how could he become sin after the pilgrimage he went on?

Also, if Sin is there to protect Dream Zanarkand why the hell does he blow the crap out of it at the start of the game?

Jiro
04-12-2014, 01:42 AM
Yeah, if the fayth were the only thing keeping Jecht alive, and their purpose was to defeat Sin, then surely stopping their dreaming at any point would've been fine.

Karifean
04-12-2014, 02:15 AM
Yeah, if the fayth were the only thing keeping Jecht alive, and their purpose was to defeat Sin, then surely stopping their dreaming at any point would've been fine.

A fayth CAN'T choose to stop being summoned. They granted the summoner their power, and ever since then that summoner can call forth their aeon.

Bahamut's fayth asks Tidus to "let them rest, because they were tired of dreaming", remember? This very much implies they cannot simply do it themselves.

@Crop: We don't know if Jecht was the only one. The Order of Yevon has "Sin's Toxin" as a convenient excuse if anyone said they came from Zanarkand.

There's no problem with a dream of the fayth becoming a fayth themselves. Aeons are just as physically existent as anyone else, just as real as anyone else, the only (main) difference is that their existence fades when the summoning stops.

As for why Sin attacked Dream Zanarkand, the most common theory I've heard is that Jecht had enough control over Sin to make it go near it, which it generally isn't supposed to. That's when Sin's instinct to destroy machina cities came into play, and things went their course.

Jinx
04-12-2014, 02:20 AM
it's dumb

Tavrobel
04-12-2014, 03:15 AM
The whole Jecht getting to Spira by falling through some temporal vortex out in the ocean while training is a bit bollocks imo but it's a satisfactory enough excuse for how he left, but the idea that Auron could just cruise through riding on Sin's back is a little bit bonkers.

DZ is a physical location in Spira.

The only person in the story who thinks anyone time traveled is Tidus.

Auron is dead, which means he's literally Hitler-Madoka-Jesus and do whatever he wants. As far as Jecht is concerned, he has limited willpower through his status as Sin, so his trips to and from DZ are limited by Yevon.


Why is Jecht the only one who has ever done that? You'd think explorers would be doing it all the time.

Also, if Jecht was already just a dream of the Fayth then how could he become sin after the pilgrimage he went on?

Also, if Sin is there to protect Dream Zanarkand why the hell does he blow the crap out of it at the start of the game?

Accident. It's one of those once-in-a lifetime things. Yevon can hard-reset DZ, in the same way you would reformat a computer, which limits people in the regular Spira from finding out about it. Normally, people who drift out to sea would be killed or people would assume that the survivor is nuts; exceptions, Braska believing Jecht or Rikku letting Tidus live. Guess how those stories ended?

DZ and its population work exactly like Aeons. They're summoned, and if they're summoned, Yevon can possess them.

Jecht as Sin destroyed DZ, to fetch Tidus, as part of a plan between him and Auron, and then let Yevon hard-reset it. He has some autonomy, but not much.

Jiro
04-12-2014, 03:37 AM
Yeah, if the fayth were the only thing keeping Jecht alive, and their purpose was to defeat Sin, then surely stopping their dreaming at any point would've been fine.

A fayth CAN'T choose to stop being summoned. They granted the summoner their power, and ever since then that summoner can call forth their aeon.

Bahamut's fayth asks Tidus to "let them rest, because they were tired of dreaming", remember? This very much implies they cannot simply do it themselves.



So did Dona and Isaaru have to be tracked down before Yevon would fuck off? What about Brother Zuke who was a summoner previously?

Karifean
04-12-2014, 03:41 AM
Yeah, if the fayth were the only thing keeping Jecht alive, and their purpose was to defeat Sin, then surely stopping their dreaming at any point would've been fine.

A fayth CAN'T choose to stop being summoned. They granted the summoner their power, and ever since then that summoner can call forth their aeon.

Bahamut's fayth asks Tidus to "let them rest, because they were tired of dreaming", remember? This very much implies they cannot simply do it themselves.



So did Dona and Isaaru have to be tracked down before Yevon would smurf off? What about Brother Zuke who was a summoner previously?

There's a bit of a difference there; Yu Yevon is summoning the aeon perpetually. Any summoner with a mind would dismiss them after their job is done. At that point the fayth is free. Yu Yevon does not do that.

Tavrobel
04-12-2014, 03:58 AM
So did Dona and Isaaru have to be tracked down before Yevon would smurf off? What about Brother Zuke who was a summoner previously?

They are not the summoners of DZ. Yevon is the summoner of DZ, and the people who are glowing on Gagazet are the fayth that gives DZ form.

Contrast this with Yuna (or any other standard summoner) who can use Valefor/Bahamut, etc., of whom are the fayth in the temples. Notice even more that you can't summon two copies of the same Aeon at any time (e.g., Remiem Temple challenges or the final sequence).

Sephiroth
04-12-2014, 11:19 AM
Contrast this with Yuna (or any other standard summoner) who can use Valefor/Bahamut, etc., of whom are the fayth in the temples. Notice even more that you can't summon two copies of the same Aeon at any time (e.g., Remiem Temple challenges or the final sequence).

To be fair there are moments when you can summon an Aeon that is on the field (Heretic Aeons) but that is more because of ingame missing logic than actual story logic.

black orb
04-12-2014, 05:05 PM
The whole Jecht getting to Spira by falling through some temporal vortex out in the ocean while training is a bit bollocks imo but it's a satisfactory enough excuse for how he left, but the idea that Auron could just cruise through riding on Sin's back is a little bit bonkers.
>>> Jecht entered Spira while out practicing in the sea and running upon Sin. The Zanarkand he hailed from, as well as Jecht himself, were but a dream recreation of the original city, created from the memories of its original citizens and maintained by Yu Yevon, the summoner who was Zanarkand's leader. The dream Zanarkand is based on Zanarkand as it existed 1000 years ago in Spira's history, whose ruins have since become the destination of pilgrimages. Unaware of any of this, Jecht was seen as a crazy drunkard and locked up in Bevelle.

Jecht asserts some control and makes his way to Dream Zanarkand where he communicates with the now-unsent Auron and transports him and Tidus to Spira, hoping that Tidus would find a way to destroy Sin for good. (source ffwikia (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Wiki))..:luca:

There is no temporal vortex..


Why is Jecht the only one who has ever done that? You'd think explorers would be doing it all the time.
>>> Its possible, if they can survive Sin..:luca:



Also, if Jecht was already just a dream of the Fayth then how could he become sin after the pilgrimage he went on?
>>> As Karifean mentioned, There's no problem with a dream of the fayth becoming a fayth themselves.:luca:



Also, if Sin is there to protect Dream Zanarkand why the hell does he blow the crap out of it at the start of the game?
>>> The strain of trying to control Sin was beyond Yu Yevon, and the process destroyed his mind, removing any conscious control he may have had on it. Sin thus became a monster that knew only its two instincts, and indiscriminately attacked cities and villages all over Spira, starting with the true Zanarkand itself. (source ffwikia (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Wiki))..:luca:

Ayen
04-12-2014, 09:38 PM
I always assumed that it was a physical location out in the ocean and lo and behold by this thread it's a physical location out in the ocean.

Jiro
04-13-2014, 02:43 AM
It must be pretty fucking far out to sea if nobody has been able to see it. Wonder why you can't just go there on the airship? I mean, it would simply be ruined Zanarkand 2.0, but if it's straight up there then easy.

Also, why the hell hasn't anyone else from Zanarkand just sailed out of there? If our own history is anything to go by, humanity wants the entire world charted. And if Spirans are anything to go by, they live fucking everywhere else. So to have a physical location that is entirely unknown to people despite the existence of giant salvage ships and whatnot seems utterly bonkers.

Karifean
04-13-2014, 02:52 AM
Well I can think of one good reason why people would have trouble exploring the oceans...

Tavrobel
04-13-2014, 03:27 AM
airship?

Also, why the hell hasn't anyone else from Zanarkand just sailed out of there? If our own history is anything to go by, humanity wants the entire world charted. And if Spirans are anything to go by, they live smurfing everywhere else. So to have a physical location that is entirely unknown to people despite the existence of giant salvage ships and whatnot seems utterly bonkers.

You mean sailed away from DZ? The primary reason would be that Yu Yevon has created people that don't care. They don't need to explore if that desire has been suppressed. If all else fails, we know that Yevon has a hard-reset switch for DZ.

There weren't many airships to begin with. Even the one scrounged up during the story was one-in-a-million, and at the end of FFX-2, there are only two airships, total, and this is after the technological growth (the first one even stopped working). Is it that hard to believe that magical-zombie-Hitler-O-Brien-Stalin-Napoleon-Jesus was able to control a world where he and his daughter were the center of a global religion?

For people coming from mainland Spira, technology and population is continually reset by attacks coming from Sin. Plebs of Yevon (99% of the population) are afraid of technology. The Al Bhed are limited by their resources and by manpower (and that they're second class citizens). You reference our history of exploration, but your impression is incredibly exaggerated.

The number of explorers in Western history is extremely small. The fact explorers existed is only prominent because Europeans love starting fights. It took many of the historical explorers great efforts to get funding from their governments. Exploration was largely fueled by militaristic ambitions i.e., "we require more minerals."

Eastern exploration was largely stopped by executive order. The Chinese ended their own exploration efforts because why explore that which is inferior? If you're at the center of the world, who cares about anyone else? The Japanese and Koreans shared isolationist tendencies.

Native American exploration pre-colonialism was non-existent. Native African exploration was equally non-existent.

Ayen
04-13-2014, 04:30 AM
Well I can think of one good reason why people would have trouble exploring the oceans...

Sin just be like, "Bump!" *tears ship in half*

Goldenboko
04-16-2014, 09:42 PM
Exploration of Spira's oceans didn't happen because thing like this tended to happen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3f2qCa6Ik4). If I'm a denizen of Spira, I'm probably avoiding the water.

Jiro
04-17-2014, 02:41 AM
Exploration outward of Zanarkand wouldn't be affected by that, because they don't know about Sin. The only possible explanation is that they don't care what else is out there, but that still feels weak. And why would Jecht go, if they were all designed to have minimal desire for exploration?

Tavrobel
04-17-2014, 03:21 AM
Exploration outward of Zanarkand wouldn't be affected by that, because they don't know about Sin. The only possible explanation is that they don't care what else is out there, but that still feels weak. And why would Jecht go, if they were all designed to have minimal desire for exploration?

Sin was present starting immediately before the end of the war. Sin ended it. It was known.



"There is a legend, you know."
"Just before the horrible Sin appeared..."
"a terrible war raged between Bevelle and Zanarkand."
"When the armies of Bevelle attacked Mount Gagazet, they heard a song echoing across the snowy slopes."
""'Tis a song from an otherworld," they said. The soldiers panicked and ran."
"And then, as if to pursue the retreating armies, Sin appeared!"
"Some time later, scouts from Bevelle braved the mountain."
"On the other side, they witnessed the ruins that had been Zanarkand."
"The city destroyed. Not a single soul left standing. Gone!"
"In its place, a multitude of the fayth had gathered on Gagazet."
"They were singing a song."
"It's the song we now call the "Hymn of the Fayth.""
"And that, as they say, is that."
"Well...maybe not all of it."

"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

Plenty of survivors.

Jecht didn't do it on purpose. He went out for a swim one day, went too far out, and was caught in the tide. Sin then brought him to the mainland.

Before you ask, I'm not doing a calculation of the tides of Spira and how far he would have had to swim before he could not physically swim back. If you want an answer for that, test it yourself. You can download that app that makes your phone waterproof if you want to let us know how it goes.


"I was in a coffee shop, running away from home when I heard the news."
"Our hero, Jecht, gone, vanished into thin air!"


Yuna
"A man named Jecht told me. He was my father's guardian."

[Tidus looks surprised, then slightly pissed, and turns around, muttering "Jecht" in a low voice several times]

Tidus
"My father...his name is Jecht!"

Yuna
"Amazing!"
[She does the prayer gesture]
"You know, our meeting like this must be the blessing of Yevon!"

Tidus
"Sounds like him, but it can't be him."

Yuna
"Why not?"

Tidus
"My old man, he died. Ten years ago, off the coast of Zanarkand."

[Yuna turns away]

Yuna
"I'm sorry."

Tidus
"He went out to sea for training one day...and never came back."
"And no one's seen him since then."

Yuna
"Why, that's the day that Jecht came to Spira."
"It's true! I first met Jecht ten years and three months ago!"
"I remember, that was the day my father left."
"The date fits, doesn't it?"

Reference:
http://www.ffwa.org/ff10/script.php?page=p4-02

http://www.ffwa.org/ff10/script.php?page=p1-01
http://www.ffwa.org/ff10/script.php?page=p1-04

Jiro
04-18-2014, 02:38 AM
Exploration outward of Zanarkand wouldn't be affected by that, because they don't know about Sin. The only possible explanation is that they don't care what else is out there, but that still feels weak. And why would Jecht go, if they were all designed to have minimal desire for exploration?

Sin was present starting immediately before the end of the war. Sin ended it. It was known.


I meant Dream Zanarkand.

I don't care about the logistics of the tides. Everyone else has said he was on a boat. If he swam, I don't care. Being a sarcastic bastard and telling me to download an app to waterproof my phone which clearly would not work is probably not the best way to continue the discussion.

Tavrobel
04-18-2014, 02:57 AM
"Everyone else" as in the one other person in this thread who conjectured that Jecht got on a boat but which was clearly untrue? I answered your questions and I gave you sources. He did not simply "get on a boat."

If you think that people not wanting to leave DZ because they didn't care is a weak explanation, you can feel free to do so. I never said it wasn't weak. It's just the only one we have based on evidence found within the game.

Your hostility is unfounded.

Sephiroth
04-18-2014, 03:01 AM
You better take Ultimania Omega lines or from the Japanese version of Final Fantasy X. The English text is known for being very inaccurately translated when it comes to being relevant for real detail questions. Same goes for all Final Fantasys.

Jiro
04-18-2014, 03:25 AM
Telling me to download an app which does not work as advertised is an implication that you think I'm a moron and would do something like this. That's without even taking into account that there is no way for me to test the tides in a fictional location.

By "everyone else" I am including the people who said the same in previous iterations of this thread; it is understandable if you do not recall those as I do.

I am entitled to judge apathy as a weak excuse, and if it is the only explanation we are given, then I will settle for that. I am merely prodding to see if there was anything else, anything more substantial and believable. The rest of the points you have made have been incredibly enlightening so I don't understand why the sudden shift towards implying my questions show a lack of intelligence or that you are getting tired of explaining things; if you are over it, then leave the thread. It's not that hard.

Skyblade
04-18-2014, 04:28 AM
What keeps Cindy, Mindy, and Sandy from splitting apart? Theoretically, you should be able to split them up, have them each enter encounters, and accumulate more Spheres and AP for Yuna. I think it might be reasonable that there is a general community mind guiding an Aeon created from multiple fayth from splitting apart under general circumstances.

Goldenboko
04-18-2014, 06:47 PM
What keeps Cindy, Mindy, and Sandy from splitting apart? Theoretically, you should be able to split them up, have them each enter encounters, and accumulate more Spheres and AP for Yuna. I think it might be reasonable that there is a general community mind guiding an Aeon created from multiple fayth from splitting apart under general circumstances.

Because Game Mechanics, come on man :exdee: