Gotham

[Calliope]

Thoughts? (http://mashable.com/2014/05/06/gotham-trailer/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link) I'm not sure what to think of Ryan as the commissioner.

[Ayen]

I heard about the premise in passing and side with those who are hesitant on how successful it can be. It isn't like Clark Kent with Smallville where a lot of the outline on how a show can work has already been laid out in Superboy comics. Gotham without Batman is basically just another crime drama on TV. How do you do it before Bruce Wayne and all of his greatest foes become who they are? It has potential, but it's going to be faced with a lot of obstacles getting off the ground.

I'm kind of surprised it's airing on FOX, though. I would have thought it'd be on The CW given that most of DC properties are owned by the WB but I could be getting the wrong idea of how that works since SHIELD is on ABC and ABC is owned by Disney. That's probably a good thing, though. Otherwise it'd be reduced to another teen drama before long.

I'll probably watch the premier if I remember it's on since the trailer does have me kind of excited.

[Aulayna]

I'm actually pretty stoked for it, although yeah it will probably take me a couple of episodes to stop thinking "oh it's Ryan from The OC"

[blackmage_nuke]

Gotham without Batman is basically just another crime drama on TV.

I assume it'll just have a lot of villain origin stories in it since most villains become villains before they run into batman. It does look pretty exciting.

[Ayen]

Gotham without Batman is basically just another crime drama on TV.

I assume it'll just have a lot of villain origin stories in it since most villains become villains before they run into batman. It does look pretty exciting.

And that has the potential to either be really great or a complete flop. I imagine there's a lot of cool things they could do if they adopt the Red Hood origin story of The Joker.

[Shorty]

I heard some talk about this on a podcast I listen to, and they actually psyched me up for it.

I actually hope the Joker/Red Hood story are not used, because I smurfing hate that story and I hate anyone who tries to explain Joker or his backstory. It defeats the entire smurfing purpose and mystery of his villainery :doublecolbert: I refuse to accept anyone's interpretation of Joker who tries to do this, especially as The Killing Joke comic explaining the Joker/Red Hood plot has him brutally rape Gordon's daughter. Sorry, my Joker isn't motivated by sexual desires and likely has no need for it at all.

[Ayen]

While I actually prefer The Joker's mysterious background, it seems inevitable that this show will give him a backstory to include him just because he's Batman's most popular villain and I think the Red Hood persona is at the very least worth considering if they do. But maybe the writers for this show will leave it alone.

[Colonel Angus]

The Joker's backstory should be that he was once a great Hollywood actor, who just got lazy & to pay for his courtside seats to the Lakers games, he turned to a life of crime.

[Del Murder]

They should do a Joker origin story every season, each one being completely different and with no reference to the previous versions.

This certainly has intrigue. I'm a big fan of the other DC 'origin' shows (Smallville, Arrow) so of course I'll give this a try. Will be tough to make it great without the main character, though.

[Mercen-X]

Rather than being canon to the story, they should all be flashbacks narrated by the Joker's voice.


SHIELD is on ABC and ABC is owned by Disney.

And Marvel is owned by Disney too now, hence SHIELD airing on ABC.

Also, rape doesn't need to be motivated by sexuality. Certainly, it helps, but it's not necessary.

[Ayen]

Did he rape her, though? It's never actually stated. All we know for sure is he took pictures of her naked and showed them to Gordon to drive him mad.

[Mercen-X]

Now that's always been the Joker's motivation. Riddler tries to prove he's smarter, Penguin likes birds, Catwoman likes cats, Scarecrow is the avatar of fear, and Joker is the avatar of chaos and madness.

[Depression Moon]

It looks like ass and how can you have Gordon with no facial hair?

[Shlup]

I just don't know how I feel about this show. I don't like SHIELD but I like Arrow okay... Batman is my favorite super hero so I want to like it. We'll see.

[Loony BoB]

I'm not sure what to think of Ryan as the commissioner.

it will probably take me a couple of episodes to stop thinking "oh it's Ryan from The OC"
I actually feel that this role suits Ben McKenzie better than the O.C. one did.

They should do a Joker origin story every season, each one being completely different and with no reference to the previous versions.
I love this idea. They should have each Joker story carried out by a different writer. "Who is the real Joker? Are any of them the real Joker?" It basically keeps things a mystery while still allowing us to imagine different ways it could have happened (and debate them, and I feel topics that are up for debate are important in any TV series as they increase the word-of-mouth adveritising potential).

I looked up who the actors are and I have to say I'm impressed with how much Camren Bicondova looks like a young Meg Ryan. Excellent choice. In fact, all of the actors look well casted although I'm not sure about the young Bruce Wayne. Hopefully they can act impressively, too.

[Calliope]

I looked up who the actors are and I have to say I'm impressed with how much Camren Bicondova looks like a young Meg Ryan.

Yeah, maybe if you stretch her face sideways???

This looks okay, really. I just want them to start The Flash. Wake up, Barry!

[Mercen-X]

There should be a Joe Chill who kills his former gang members for betraying him, a Jack "the Ripper" who is responsible for the murder of the Waynes, a Red Hood career criminal, an actor who portrays an edgy clown, a man who lost everything including his wife and unborn child and turned to a life of crime, a lab assistant spattered with disfiguring and mind-altering chemicals, a troubled teen who immolated his parents, a self-proclaimed immortal who has lived since the pharaohs, and perhaps the Phantasm should also be hinted as being an earlier persona of the Joker (of course, minus the spooky outfit). Or better than the Phantasm angle, what if there were a version of this "potentially the Joker" that was the actual Gray Ghost so as to imply that Joker started out not as a thug or a villain, but as a vigilante in a trench coat and fedora.

[Shorty]

so my worst joker nightmare has come true, heller particularly references The Killing Joke as being one of the great batman comics and it seems likely that he will base the Joker's origin on that storyline

Joker confirmed for 'Gotham' (http://geektyrant.com/news/joker-confirmed-for-gotham-showrunner-discusses-the-shows-visual-style-and-villains)

An awesome interview with Bruno Heller all the same. Pretty smurfing bold statement about Gotham surpassing the Batman movies in visuals. I am doubtful, but we'll see.

Extremely interested to see who they will cast as Joker and if they can fill such large shoes, but also I'll probably hold onto my reservations and not really give the character a chance because I don't believe in that story :shobon:

[Ayen]

Can we get some armed guards outside of Barbara's house?

[Shorty]

Also,


Did he rape her, though? It's never actually stated. All we know for sure is he took pictures of her naked and showed them to Gordon to drive him mad.

re: It's true that it is never outright stated in the comics that Joker rapes Barbara. Nonetheless, I believe it is heavily implied. Some months ago, previously unreleased original artwork for The Killing Joke (http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/12/original-killing-joke-art-reignites-debate-about-torture-scene/)* was revealed with even more hideous and uncomfortable scenes depicting the Joker's torture of Barbara, furthering the fact that I find it very difficult to believe he did not rape her. Additionally, there is talk of Alan Moore confirming during a reading that "as far as he was concerned the Joker did rape her" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABatman%3A_The_Killing_Joke), and that he possibly raped Jim Gordon as well. More sources in the trivia portion of this page (http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke).

*Please note that this link has nsfw comic drawing excerpts.

While I understand how far Moore wanted to push The Joker and his classic sentiment that "the world is just one bad day away from becoming like him," this is too far for me and it is why I don't like The Killing Joke or any portion taken from it (among previously stated reasons).

[Mercen-X]

The page does nothing to convince me that Joker either truly raped Barbara or that his motives were sexual in nature.
1) An argument made in the page comments that stripping a character naked to shame them is a common tactic, further it isn't restricted to "villains" but also used by larger-scale institutions such as armies.
2) Even if Joker did assault Barbara, it isn't proof that his motives shifted to the sexual. There were a few episodes of Nip/Tuck that involved a rapist who was a man who didn't even have a penis. He had to use a strap-on. His motives certainly weren't sexual, he just wanted to destroy the victims' self-esteem and sense of security.

Also, responding to a suggestion made in the article: Joker is a "psychotic evil villain", so it's not as if he's being made out to be some kind of role model for people to follow his example. This bull about sexualizing violence. He's smurfing evil.......!

And as for the wiki, I'd take anything said on those pages with a grain of salt.

[Shorty]

Was Two-Face confirmed before? If not, he is now (http://geektyrant.com/news/new-photos-from-gotham-and-synopsis-confirms-two-face).

Have to say, I think that revealing these characters little by little is a pretty genius move to get folks interested.

[Depression Moon]

Why are they putting in all these villains when Bruce is only about 10 in this? The only villains that were relevant in his childhood as far as I know were Oswald Cobblepot and Thomas Elliot.

I wanted a Gotham Central show for years, but this looks like it's just going to be bad. My take would've been during Batman's years , but with just a focus on Gordon and him dealing with corrupt officers in his department, stopping villains without the aid of Batman (I doubt Gordon and his crew could stop the like of Clayface, Ra's, The Joker, and Mr. Freeze on their own, but criminals like Zsasz and Two-Face I think are within their skills), and just some more looks into Gordon, Renee, and Harvey Bullock's personal lives.

[Shorty]

It's not about Bruce, though, that's the thing. It's bigger than Bruce Wayne.

[Raistlin]

I am skeptical about this show, but I'll almost certainly watch at least a few episodes. I did enjoy both Smallville and Arrow, but I am wary of how well they can do a good Gotham origin show -- especially without Batman. Maybe it would appeal more to hardcore DC nerds who care about the villains, but I really just like Batman.

[Mercen-X]

It would be great if they could do a cross over with Arrow. Now before you say "this is Gotham's past, Arrow is in the present" consider that some characters have lived a lot longer. Ra's al-Ghul makes this a very real possibility. It would probably only work on an episode of Arrow where while Ollie is reading notes on an immortal, we flash back to events occurring on an episode of Gotham.

[Del Murder]

They''re on different networks, so that won't be happening.

[Mercen-X]

Ho...kay, there's that.

How did Fox even get Gotham? That dilettante network won't have sense enough to hold onto Gotham past its first season. Hopes... dashed... irrevocably.

[Ayen]

Gotham wasn't created by Joss Whedon so it'll be fine.

[Jiro]

This could go really well or really terribly. I hope that it becomes more than a tour of Batman villains becoming the forms we recognise though, because that sounds like a bit of a cop out.

[Shorty]

Saw a short trailer for this tonight! Just saw Oswald Cobblepot for a few short clips, but he looks great, holy trout. I am really excited for this.

I'm not totally disappointed with Ben McKenzie being cast as Gordon from the little bit I saw him. I wasn't going for him initially, but I think he'll do alright. Additionally, I'm not usually one for origins stories, but I think this show has a decent shot at being pretty good.

I also just heard a review from a tv columnist who moaned about Jada Pinkett Smith a few months ago but said they had to eat their words and that she basically stole the show. Kindof wish I didn't hear that because now I'll have ~*~expectations~*~ but I'm still interested to see how she does.

Premiers in less than a month! Super stoked!

[Kossage]

The premise looks interesting, and it's nice to give some spotlight to the GCPD and its quirky officers. I'm just worried if the show will focus too much on wowing audience with A list Batman villain origins, but hopefully they can balance those out and show some of the more obscure characters too. Based on the trailer I've seen, the show seems decent enough and does capture some of that gothic aesthetic which Nolan's movies were missing, so I'll definitely give it a try. :)

[Del Murder]

They have 23 episodes to fill each season so I'm sure there will be plenty of time to delve into the more obscure characters. I'm looking forward to that as well.

[Colonel Angus]

I thought this was good. I was kind of confused w/ the timeline. It seems they based it in the modern era, but not quite.

Lots of characters introduced.

[Shorty]

I thought this was good. I was kind of confused w/ the timeline. It seems they based it in the modern era, but not quite.

I heard just that morning on a podcast that it's the Gotham phenomenon. Besides super technology, no one has much to tell the times apart from any other decade. You aren't supposed to be able to tell what time Gotham is set in, and in that way, it allows you to interpret the city more personally (which I think is badass and awesome).

Turning this on now! :hyper:

[Ayen]

Lots of characters introduced. No kidding. I enjoyed the cameos. I forgot this was on, but luckily my mom taped it so I got to watch it. Enjoyed it immensely. Donal Logue makes a very convincing Harvey Bullock and I love the two they got to play Bruce and Catwoman. Of course, Gordon goes without saying. Never thought I'd say this in a million years, but I'm rooting for the Penguin to break some heads.

[Del Murder]

I really liked the premiere. Not loved. Gordon was great. Penguin was great. I even liked Fish, whom they created for the show. Bruce and Alfred were solid. Did not like Bullock, and not it the way I'm supposed to. I think he over acted big time. But they can make something of this. I am a little concerned about all the characters introduced already. It's almost like they didn't think the pilot could stand on its own without a lot of cameos. We'll see how it goes.

[Colonel Angus]

These kind of shows start a little slower (see Agents of SHIELD), because things need to be set up. I see a lot of potential in this. I hope Fox does, too.

Anyone want to take any guesses as to who it was that killed the Waynes? I know it's usually portrayed as being the Joker, but I wonder if this show is going to deviate from that. The Penguin?

[Del Murder]

It would be cool if it was the Joker and they just hint at it but never reveal it fully and just left it unsolved. I really hope they leave Joker to be a complete mystery rather than have him show up as a random character like they did with Riddler in the pilot.

[Ayen]

Wasn't the Joker thing just a Tim Burton movie exclusive, or did it happen in one of the retellings in the comic books? Because to my knowledge the guy who killed his parents was just some random thief with a gun like in the Christopher Nolan movies. I guess they plan to make it larger fry this time around.

And I don't think it was the Penguin. Too tall. And I guess the guy has a thing against killing kids since he left Bruce alive. "I really hope that kid doesn't grow up to take revenge on me or anything."

[Colonel Angus]

The Joker could've very well been the comedian entertaining Fish.

[Shorty]

Wasn't the Joker thing just a Tim Burton movie exclusive, or did it happen in one of the retellings in the comic books? Because to my knowledge the guy who killed his parents was just some random thief with a gun like in the Christopher Nolan movies. I guess they plan to make it larger fry this time around.

And I don't think it was the Penguin. Too tall. And I guess the guy has a thing against killing kids since he left Bruce alive. "I really hope that kid doesn't grow up to take revenge on me or anything."

I am pretty sure that it's Joe Chill who is generally responsible for the death of the Waynes, but I'm no expert.

[Ayen]

Wasn't the Joker thing just a Tim Burton movie exclusive, or did it happen in one of the retellings in the comic books? Because to my knowledge the guy who killed his parents was just some random thief with a gun like in the Christopher Nolan movies. I guess they plan to make it larger fry this time around.

And I don't think it was the Penguin. Too tall. And I guess the guy has a thing against killing kids since he left Bruce alive. "I really hope that kid doesn't grow up to take revenge on me or anything."

I am pretty sure that it's Joe Chill who is generally responsible for the death of the Waynes, but I'm no expert.

He certainly sent a chill down young master Bruce's spine.

*shot*

[Shiny]

They should do a Joker origin story every season, each one being completely different and with no reference to the previous versions.

This idea actually sounds good.

[blackmage_nuke]

I keep expecting Penguin to do the quacking laugh and Im always disapointed when he laughs normally..

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I'm at a friend's house right now who had me sit down and watch all the episodes out right now. It's enjoyable for the most part. Anyone still keeping up with it?

[Ayen]

I have. Thankful for the Friday recap since I always forget it comes on at seven. I have a cousin who's going to be in a minor role on the show. I thought it was today, but my father seems to think it's next Monday. Even though my aunt said next Monday, last week...

Doubt I would have been able to point him out if I saw him, anyway.

[Colonel Angus]

I'm hooked on it. Sure, AoS is better, but they do a really good job on this. Gives me a reason to look forward to Mondays.

[blackmage_nuke]

I dont think that was a paradox.

[G13]

I heard some talk about this on a podcast I listen to, and they actually psyched me up for it.

I actually hope the Joker/Red Hood story are not used, because I smurfing hate that story and I hate anyone who tries to explain Joker or his backstory. It defeats the entire smurfing purpose and mystery of his villainery :doublecolbert: I refuse to accept anyone's interpretation of Joker who tries to do this, especially as The Killing Joke comic explaining the Joker/Red Hood plot has him brutally rape Gordon's daughter. Sorry, my Joker isn't motivated by sexual desires and likely has no need for it at all.

Bit late, but didn't I see you post on Facebook a while back that The Killing Joke was the definitive Joker origin story? Maybe I misread it.

Either way, I hate The Killing Joke. I don't care for the back story or the explanation as to why he is the way he is, but something to remember is that Joker is a man, just like Bruce (Batgod notwithstanding), and he could be motivated by sexual desires. I don't agree with it because I am part of the collective sweaty nerd voice of the internet, but it could be a thing.

Anyway, Gotham's awesome and I feel there is a terrible lack of discussion in here. Robin Lord Taylor is a way better Penguin than I initially thought he would be and I find myself way more interested in his piece of the story than I do about Ryan's struggle with his not-quite-lesbian girlfriend. Seriously, why has that not been mentioned yet?

[Shorty]

Nope, my sister holds it as the definitive Joker origin story. I hate it.

[Del Murder]

Yeah, Penguin is stealing the show so far. He's been excellent. Gordon is good too, but the rest of the characters don't really do anything for me so far. More Penguin please.

The bisexual love triangle thing is interesting. You don't ever see that on a network show. I want to see its conclusion but I don't much care for it being dragged out.