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Scotty_ffgamer
05-12-2014, 03:44 AM
I've been wanting to get into these games lately! I've played Person 3 and 4, and I've just started up Nocturne. I've been pretty interested in Digital Devil Saga as well. Who all is a fan of this franchise? Outside of the Persona series, which of the games are your favorites? Any of the games have a particularly good story or set of characters?

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 04:09 AM
*raises hand*

I love this franchise, it reminded me that RPGs used to be challenging and more about preparation and thinking outside of the box. Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne is my favorite game from the main series followed by SMTIV. I also really enjoyed Digital Devil Saga and the Raidou series of Devil Summoner titles.

If you are looking for story/character driven entries then I would recommend Digital Devil Saga and Devil Survivor, if you need something "different" I would say Raidou Kuzunohara vs. the Soulless Army. If you want something more old school and closer to the original SMT but somewhat updated, then Strange Journey wasn't too shabby either.

black orb
05-12-2014, 05:09 AM
>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..:luca:

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 05:22 AM
>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..:luca:

Only Persona deals with Japanese High school, the cast of Strange Journey are all adults and the cast of DDS are soldiers though it gets a bit confusing... Hell even the main SMT games don't deal with Japanese High school as the world usually ends anywhere between 10 minutes to an hour into the game and then it's post-apocalyptic playground for you. Even though Raidou is a high school student, he spends most of the game playing demon-summoning detective in 1920s Japan and I have yet to see his school.

Even Persona doesn't completely revolve around school.

Skyblade
05-12-2014, 05:28 AM
Yeah, if your objection is to the high-school thing, SMT shouldn't really give you much problems.

I enjoyed Nocturne the most. Mostly because I hate first person perspective for RPG combat. However, I felt it had an encounter rate that was a bit too high. It wasn't hard, just annoying. But I liked the negotiations and a lot of the world setup in Nocturne.

The games themselves are stellar. The characters are fantastic, and the writing is excellent. But I have some serious objections to a lot of the central tenants of the mythos and the philosophies. Not to mention that, while it represents a lot of its figures from other cultures well, it absolutely butchers those it draws from Christian lore. Philosophy and morality play a pretty significant role in the series, and I kind of drags the entire thing down for me with how much I dislike those aspects of the games.


Overall, I think Persona is a much better series.

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 05:30 AM
What do you feel is butchered from Christian lore? Except the obvious which is Yahweh but even he kind of gets a pass due to certain circumstances in the background of the series plot. Other than that, I feel they do a fairly decent job about them.

Skyblade
05-12-2014, 05:36 AM
What do you feel is butchered from Christian lore? Except the obvious which is Yahweh but even he kind of gets a pass due to certain circumstances in the background of the series plot. Other than that, I feel they do a fairly decent job about them.

The fact that they have absolutely no understanding of even the basic principles of the faith. That they reduce the entire religion and all of the heavenly host down to essentially an army on the side of order in a battle between order and chaos. That they misrepresent the role of Yahweh, the angels, and pretty much the entire construct of the Church.

This is actually what ticks me off the most about the series, and why I really just usually quit the games partially through.

black orb
05-12-2014, 05:43 AM
>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..:luca:

Only Persona deals with Japanese High school, the cast of Strange Journey are all adults and the cast of DDS are soldiers though it gets a bit confusing... Hell even the main SMT games don't deal with Japanese High school as the world usually ends anywhere between 10 minutes to an hour into the game and then it's post-apocalyptic playground for you. Even though Raidou is a high school student, he spends most of the game playing demon-summoning detective in 1920s Japan and I have yet to see his school.

Even Persona doesn't completely revolve around school.
>>> Persona is pretty much all know about these games.. I guess im not fond of the artwork there. All the characters look too handsome and fashionable for my taste..:luca:

Skyblade
05-12-2014, 05:46 AM
>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..:luca:

Only Persona deals with Japanese High school, the cast of Strange Journey are all adults and the cast of DDS are soldiers though it gets a bit confusing... Hell even the main SMT games don't deal with Japanese High school as the world usually ends anywhere between 10 minutes to an hour into the game and then it's post-apocalyptic playground for you. Even though Raidou is a high school student, he spends most of the game playing demon-summoning detective in 1920s Japan and I have yet to see his school.

Even Persona doesn't completely revolve around school.
>>> Persona is pretty much all know about these games.. I guess im not fond of the artwork there. All the characters look too handsome and fashionable for my taste..:luca:

If you can get past the art style, it does have some absolutely fantastic writing.

But the Persona games have a very different style and setup than the rest of the Shin Megami Tensei series.

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 05:53 AM
Going to open a can of worms with this but let's go...

To be honest, and speaking as a former Christian myself, from an outsider's perspective, I don't feel they are off when you think about the tenants. Still Yahweh is not really evil, the game's background points out that God has been warped by something wrong in the universe and it frankly seems to be pointing towards humanity being the culprit which frankly is true to real life as well.

There is also a lot about the angels and Yahweh that has been removed from the faith over the centuries but are placed back in. I mean New Testament God is a pretty cool dude, Old Testament Yahweh on the other hand can be a dick when he wants to be and even his "chosen people" will generally attest to that. I mean it's not like The Books of Joshua, Judges, both Books of Samuel are not rife with Yahweh commanding his chosen people to wipe out every man, woman, child, and livestock that belongs to the heathen's for the sake of Yahweh creating his paradise for his chosen followers. New Testament God isn't interesting, Jewish Old Testament Yahweh on the other hand makes for a very interesting and atypical antagonist.

Granted, SMTII goes a little too far in this regard but the series is not about making religion look bad, as it about presenting people with choices by making them face the best and worst aspects of it. I mean the Law order tends to have more sympathetic characters than Chaos does. The Archangel Gabriel and Satan (not to be confused with Lucifer) are actually some of the sane people on their side. They have actually done a better job of restoring some of the heavenly host back to their place, cause figures like Satan and Metatron kind of got shortchanged by Christianity despite being more prominent back in the day.

black orb
05-12-2014, 05:57 AM
If you can get past the art style, it does have some absolutely fantastic writing.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/rodv/02575-021.jpg

>>> Get past to THAT is not easy you know :erm:... scaaary..:luca:

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 05:59 AM
I can't see anything.

It's Mara isn't it? or Arioch... :shifty:

Skyblade
05-12-2014, 06:04 AM
Still Yahweh is not really evil, the game's background points out that God has been warped by something wrong in the universe and it frankly seems to be pointing towards humanity being the culprit which frankly is true to real life as well.

I actually never caught this at any point. And, actually, no, that's not true in real life. The perception of God may be warped by man, but that's not the same thing.



I don't want to get too far into this, so I'll just briefly summarize. The games tend to group things into a battle between order and chaos. There are basically no good guys amongst any of the various mythological figures. They tend to be pretty firmly fixed in one camp or the other. The "true" ending (and the one most in holding with my own beliefs) is a middle path between the two. However, due to the way the factions are set up, the game represents this by man basically saying "to hell with this" to both angels and demons and kicking the butts of both to take a path they choose. It changes somewhat in some of the games (like the "true" ending of Nocturne being to become a general in charge of an army of demons to forge their own path), but that's the basic premise.

So I either get to be a complete slave to the forces of order (which is not in keeping with any incarnation of God in any section of the Bible). Or I get to strike out and fight and even kill Yahweh because I think mankind is better on its own. Or I can be a complete anarchist and lead the world to ruin that way. None of these choices appeal to me. At all.


Let's drop the religion aspect of it, though. I don't want to argue that. I'm fine with discussing the philosophy of it for now, but there's a reason I avoid EoEO, and I do not want to argue religion indefinitely here.

black orb
05-12-2014, 06:06 AM
I can't see anything.

It's Mara isn't it? or Arioch... :shifty:
>>> Dont know, but they look scary..:luca:

Skyblade
05-12-2014, 06:10 AM
If you can get past the art style, it does have some absolutely fantastic writing.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/rodv/02575-021.jpg

>>> Get past to THAT is not easy you know :erm:... scaaary..:luca:

Well, I meant getting past the art style of the Persona games. Which is far less scary, but far more high school.

black orb
05-12-2014, 06:13 AM
far more high school.
>>> They are scary for that exact reason..:luca:

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 06:16 AM
Fair enough, we won't argue the details, but I actually like that there is no "good" choice cause it's not about the people involved it's about what these factions represent. I mean even if you were to make them into political factions, Law is basically a Police State, Chaos is the collapse of society, and Neutral is just some form of government that lies in between. All three have their good and bad points cause the police state is kind means people will not have to worry about crime or violence at the cost of personal independence, chaos grants personal independence at the cost of security and the constant threat of violence, and neutral is a nice balance but it utterly imperfect and will eventually lead to the forces believing in the other two paths to rise again. Having to witness all three in their worst point makes the choice harder but genuine. The world is not black and white or good and evil, it's mostly just filled with ideas that some people created to make the world better and others use to make it worse for the rest of us. I can get behind that.

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 06:17 AM
far more high school.
>>> They are scary for that exact reason..:luca:

Only three of those characters are high school students. Besides you should see their original designs...

54342

black orb
05-12-2014, 06:19 AM
>>> You guys have not convinced me of the true greatness of "Shin Megami Tensei" yet..
Come on, show me something..:luca:

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 06:31 AM
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I've been wanting to post this for awhile even if it's from the anime.
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Del Murder
05-12-2014, 06:39 AM
I love this genre but I can't seem to get into this series. Why is this? It baffles me how much people whose tastes I usually agree with love these games.

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 06:40 AM
Which ones have your played, maybe you just need the right game. ;)

Del Murder
05-12-2014, 06:44 AM
Persona 3 Portable and Devil Survivor. In P3P I put in about 40 hours until I got sick of how repetitive it is. In DS I didn't even get into a battle. I don't quite remember why. Either the intro was too long or the story and art style just weren't doing it for me, or a better game came along.

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 06:51 AM
Eh, I think you've heard my feelings about P3P, I feel it loses a lot of it's immersion due to the UI. Still fair enough of it feels repetitive. I also have mixed feelings about Devil Survivor which is a fun game but the story and characters are a turn off.

Nocturne or SMTIV are pretty light on character and story, instead it's the fact it plays like Pokemon with demons that should be enticing.

Digital Devil Saga is the closest to a traditional JRPG outside of the older Persona games in that it's emphasis is on characters and story. It also has a really nifty customization system and utilizes Nocturne's Press Turn system.

If P3 isn't doing it for you, maybe try out Persona 4 instead because it does a bit more to break up the monotony of Tartarus and their are more things to do in the real world as well to keep you busy. It's plot is also a bit more involving from the get -go than P3's which even I'll admit is a slow burn until almost halfway through.

Skyblade
05-12-2014, 06:54 AM
Fair enough, we won't argue the details, but I actually like that there is no "good" choice cause it's not about the people involved it's about what these factions represent. I mean even if you were to make them into political factions, Law is basically a Police State, Chaos is the collapse of society, and Neutral is just some form of government that lies in between. All three have their good and bad points cause the police state is kind means people will not have to worry about crime or violence at the cost of personal independence, chaos grants personal independence at the cost of security and the constant threat of violence, and neutral is a nice balance but it utterly imperfect and will eventually lead to the forces believing in the other two paths to rise again. Having to witness all three in their worst point makes the choice harder but genuine. The world is not black and white or good and evil, it's mostly just filled with ideas that some people created to make the world better and others use to make it worse for the rest of us. I can get behind that.

I agree with most of this. I just can't agree with where Yahweh and the heavenly host are placed on that scale, nor can I agree that mankind is better off without God.

I think that's part of why I love Persona so much more. All the forces, for good or ill, are human. The battles are with how humanity views the universe and copes with both the world and humanity's place in it. In addition to having what I consider better writing overall, I also much prefer this philosophical focus.


I also have to agree with Wolf that Persona IV does a lot better at breaking up the repetition of the setup than Persona 3 does. But I personally don't think the plot is as strong. It might be worth checking out the new Persona 3 movies when they're imported.

black orb
05-12-2014, 06:58 AM
>>> Interesting.. I like demons and cats I think I saw one somewhere briefly.. I guess all these games are for Nintendo DS/3DS, thats bad news for me..:luca:

Wolf Kanno
05-12-2014, 07:11 AM
Fair enough, we won't argue the details, but I actually like that there is no "good" choice cause it's not about the people involved it's about what these factions represent. I mean even if you were to make them into political factions, Law is basically a Police State, Chaos is the collapse of society, and Neutral is just some form of government that lies in between. All three have their good and bad points cause the police state is kind means people will not have to worry about crime or violence at the cost of personal independence, chaos grants personal independence at the cost of security and the constant threat of violence, and neutral is a nice balance but it utterly imperfect and will eventually lead to the forces believing in the other two paths to rise again. Having to witness all three in their worst point makes the choice harder but genuine. The world is not black and white or good and evil, it's mostly just filled with ideas that some people created to make the world better and others use to make it worse for the rest of us. I can get behind that.

I agree with most of this. I just can't agree with where Yahweh and the heavenly host are placed on that scale, nor can I agree that mankind is better off without God.

I think that's part of why I love Persona so much more. All the forces, for good or ill, are human. The battles are with how humanity views the universe and copes with both the world and humanity's place in it. In addition to having what I consider better writing overall, I also much prefer this philosophical focus.

Fair enough, though I feel the opposite, I like that the mainline games feel a bit heavier and deal with more controversial material. It shows the series sticks to it's punk roots I guess. Not that I dislike Persona since I am very much of the mind that as the series shows time and time again, mankind will most likely be the cause of our species demise. ;)


I also have to agree with Wolf that Persona IV does a lot better at breaking up the repetition of the setup than Persona 3 does. But I personally don't think the plot is as strong. It might be worth checking out the new Persona 3 movies when they're imported.

Well... when a version without a jacked up price finally gets released at least...

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/04/08/persona-3-the-movie-1-sees-english-release-on-may-20th/

I love P3, but I'm not paying for this.


>>> Interesting.. I like demons and cats I think I saw one somewhere briefly.. I guess all these games are for Nintendo DS/3DS, thats bad news for me..:luca:

Actually, most of the games I posted are for the PS2.

PS2:
Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne
Devil Summoner 1 and 2 Raidou Kuzunohara series (has a cat)
Persona 3 and 4
Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2 (the other one with a cat)

black orb
05-12-2014, 07:27 AM
>>> PS2 is still bad news for me..:luca:

Fynn
05-12-2014, 05:28 PM
Digital Devil Saga. Oh my God. How I adore that game :love: You need to give it a shot, Scott!

Haven't really beaten anything of the main series, though :/ The closest I got was Strange Journey, which I had a blast with, but I got stuck at the end and I still want to beat it so eday. And yes, I do consider it a main entry, as it is most similar to the main series, unlike the spinoffs, which usually diverge more.

SMTI got a rerelease on iPhone now. Might give it a shot someday. Also thinking about trying Soul Havkers. IV wasn't even released here yet. And Lucifer's Call was so hard to get.

And you can't go wrong with Persona, that's for sure.

Scotty_ffgamer
05-12-2014, 05:44 PM
I'll eventually play through Persona 1 and 2. I wish there was a collection of all three of those games for the Vita. I'd play the PSP version for them aside from the one P2 game that is only on PS1 still.

I'm holding out hope that Digital Devil Saga will end up on PSN. I'd rather not hook up my PS2 if I can avoid it.

Jiro
05-13-2014, 03:20 AM
Raidou Kuzunohara vs. the Soulless Army was the first experience I had with SMT and it was pretty great. I should try and pick that up again so I can play it now that I'm familiar with SMT games.

Mirage
05-14-2014, 01:01 AM
what's wrong with the designs anyway

black orb
05-14-2014, 05:59 AM
what's wrong with the designs anyway
>>> Nothing, I just dont like them..:luca:

Scotty_ffgamer
05-15-2014, 02:01 AM
Just picked up the PSP versions of Persona and Persona 2 Innocent Sin. They're on sale for $5 each right now on PSN which is pretty awesome. P3P is also the same price. I'll finally get to try out the older Persona games, which I'm excited about. Continuing my immersion into the SMT games, haha.

Fynn
05-15-2014, 06:11 PM
Persona 1 really, REALLY sucks balls though :(

Wolf Kanno
05-15-2014, 08:16 PM
Persona 1 really, REALLY sucks balls though :(

It's combat system is clunky and its plot does emulate a cheesy Sci-Fi Channel B-Movie but it did actually have a lot of cool elements I wish had remained in the series proper, such as two actual distinct story paths to choose from, multiple cast of characters that bring variety into every play-through since it's impossible to recruit all of them and much clever multiple ending branching points.

Hell, while I know most people don't like First-person dungeons, I would argue it has the best dungeon design in the series since it actually had puzzle elements and more to do in them than just wander around til you find the exit like the later games.

Skyblade
05-15-2014, 10:05 PM
Persona 1 really, REALLY sucks balls though :(

It's combat system is clunky and its plot does emulate a cheesy Sci-Fi Channel B-Movie but it did actually have a lot of cool elements I wish had remained in the series proper, such as two actual distinct story paths to choose from, multiple cast of characters that bring variety into every play-through since it's impossible to recruit all of them and much clever multiple ending branching points.

Eh, I'm fine with being able to get the whole cast in one play. Completionist here, missing things bugs the heck out of me.


Hell, while I know most people don't like First-person dungeons, I would argue it has the best dungeon design in the series since it actually had puzzle elements and more to do in them than just wander around til you find the exit like the later games.

I loathe First-Person dungeons, but I will admit that it had stronger dungeon design than the rest of the series, and I wish they brought that aspect back (just keep it Third-Person).

Scotty_ffgamer
05-15-2014, 11:59 PM
At least I already knew what I was getting into when I bought it. I can't imagine people who only played 3 and 4 going back to the first one expecting more of the same, haha.

I know it has a lot of things that I will wish was different, but I really do think I'll enjoy it despite it's shortcomings. I've been really in the mood to try some different, more old-school RPGs lately. If I don't like it, I can't really complain since it was only $5.

Wolf Kanno
05-16-2014, 07:57 AM
Persona 1 really, REALLY sucks balls though :(

It's combat system is clunky and its plot does emulate a cheesy Sci-Fi Channel B-Movie but it did actually have a lot of cool elements I wish had remained in the series proper, such as two actual distinct story paths to choose from, multiple cast of characters that bring variety into every play-through since it's impossible to recruit all of them and much clever multiple ending branching points.

Eh, I'm fine with being able to get the whole cast in one play. Completionist here, missing things bugs the heck out of me.



This game will punish completionist, it doesn't have some of the terrible choices like non-GBA FFVI does but trying to get all the Personas is a real bitch especially since some of them are not acquired through fusion but performing certain tasks. My one piece of advice is if you are going to do the SEBEC quest first, you should get Reiji in your party.

I'm fine with a game denying you everything the first time through, because if I like the game its nice to have something to look forward to in subsequent playthroughs. Games I totally complete, I rarely ever go back to cause I've already accomplished everything.

Mirage
05-16-2014, 11:19 AM
>>> PS2 is still bad news for me..:luca:

So, which consoles are not bad news for you?

radicaledward124
06-25-2014, 07:28 AM
SMT are among my fave games. I have so many of them and i'm still collecting them. While the combat may not be the best thing ever it's at least for me always fun. I like the stories more than anything and I have to say that Persona 3 and 4 are among my faves of this series. I can't wait for P5 to come out next year, even though it will be on PS3. and then there's P4UAX i think that's what their calling it, P4 Arena Ultimate or whatever that looks to be fun and the Persona Q just looks cute!! Chibi character from P3 and P4!! I can't wait!

Mirage
06-25-2014, 10:58 AM
at this rate, I'm thinking P5 might just get released on both PS3 and PS4, if they can cheaply port it to PS4 without losing performance.

Wolf Kanno
06-25-2014, 04:20 PM
I kind a doubt it will be released for next gen, if P4 taught us anything its that Atlus isn't afraid to release their high profile games on last gen systems even though everyone if going gaga over the new stuff. Course the real issue is that the Persona team is actually pretty small (like 20 people) so a port might be a really bad idea and get mercilessly killed in reviews.

Skyblade
06-25-2014, 05:25 PM
Why would having a small team have anything to do with review scores?

Wolf Kanno
06-25-2014, 06:08 PM
It is more about their ability to make a half ass port for a next gen console they most likely have not really bothered to learn the ends and out of. They might do a port later but considering the ports on the handhelds they have done are using mostly the same game engine as the PS2 entries, I feel it is a safe bet they have been slow to adapt to the new tech, hence one of the reasons why Catherine was created to serve as the team's intro to using the PS3 console.

The poor reviews line comes from them, in the hypothetical situation they actually did do a PS4 port of the game to coincide with the PS3 one, it would most likely not make use of any features or even be high quality in graphics or sound to take advantage of the PS4 hardware. It would feel like a cheap PS3 port to make money and considering Atlus gets reamed for their questionable DLC as it is, the last thing they need to do it mar their reputation with a cheap port or worse, pull an SE and promise a game on one system only to turn around and delay it so they can release it on a new system properly. It just seems to me like a waste of time to try to expand a project in its closing development days to incorporate another console release and unlike SE and EA who often have hundreds of people working on games, Atlus is pretty small and really doesn't have the resources to pull it off in a way that would satisfy the fans. Hence why I would bank on it getting poor reviews, especially since games like Disgaea are often criticized by fans and critics alike for sticking to a graphic style that is two generations old now, in the face of games that have really improved on the expectations of sprite based games.

I actually expect P5 to look like a PS2 game myself. Atlus is not exactly a sensory overload specialist like SE or Konami and they have proven they don't really need to but in the early days of a console cycle, people are often expecting games that really show-off (more like verify to themselves) why the console in question is worth the money. So I don't think a port is going to make anyone happy if they can't bring something to it.