Microsoft to sell Xbox One without Kinect. Removes requirement for gold on apps [Archive]

Dat Matt

05-13-2014, 10:05 PM

I personally haven't bought Xbox live since 2009. I got a year of gold then and played halo reach online, but I got to a point that I got bored and stopped playing. That's when I stopped paying for gold.

The price drop for the kinect is interesting for 2 reasons.

1. The price Drop is only £30. The standard going price for a new Kinect 1.0 is £120 (much cheaper for Used ones). The price drop does put it at the same price as the PS4.

2. The removal of the Kinect from the system means that it is no longer an essential feature. This essentially renders the motion/voice controls of the Xbone useless. This means that the advantage of Xbox one, being it's all in one entertainment system interface deal, is rendered useless. It also eliminates the development of Kinect features in games. There is an install base for the kinect, but if consoles are being bundled without them then developers will not go out their way to include kinect features.

This essentially leaves the console weaker when compared to the PS4. This means that the XB1 will need to ride on the power of it's exclusives which, as of today are: Crimson Dragon, Dead Rising 3, Fighter Within, Forza 5, Killer Instinct, Kinect Sports Rivals, Powerstar Golf, Ryse Son of Rome and Xbox Fitness. The remainder of the exclusives games are either on on another windows format, are timed exclusives, or are not yet out (e.g. unknown gears title as an example)

Bolivar

05-14-2014, 02:19 AM

The big homie Mr. Shauna hit the nail on the head, that this essentially is a forfeiture of the Xbox One vision of a system that compromises on games to go after a larger demographic with its multimedia features. Which is a good thing for gamers, in that companies need to cater to the dedicated enthusiast for success, as demonstrated by the PS4. It's also good for Microsoft, as they'll be a lot more competitive now.

Unfortunately, the biggest problem for them isn't the original draconian DRM or even the mandated Kinect - a console using DDR3 memory for graphics simply isn't going to survive the coming generation of multiplatform games. This makes them much less attractive than the Wii U IMO, since Nintendo still has the gamepad as a differentiator. They will probably keep up with multiplats, but the gap will widen between Xbox One and PS4/PC.

Glad to see this thread, lately I feel like EoFF is uninterested in all the big industry stories that NeoGaf and such go crazy for.

Madame Adequate

05-14-2014, 03:23 AM

I agree that this is a very good move for gamers. It's a compromise that Microsoft must have been extremely loathe to make. They were building their entire strategy for this generation around Kinect, and without that gimmick it remains to be seen whether the platform has the chops to compete. My hunch would be that it does and that Bolivar is overstating the issues with memory - Microsoft still have absurd amounts of money to throw around at attracting talent and buying exclusives, and XBone sales have been quite a bit stronger than I would have predicted before release. Forza's a pretty huge deal, and Dead Rising 3 and Killer Instinct both have some serious fans.

I expect it will play second fiddle to the PS4 this generation, but then last generation saw the PS3 take a loooong time to catch up before finishing in a very strong position, so I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't afford to lose on that.

Must taste like ashes in Microsoft's mouth though. I commend them for accepting that it was a failed proposition in a fairly decent time span and making adjustments, though.

Also I think removing the Gold requirement is a much bigger plus for multimedia ambitions than removing Kinect as mandatory.

Quindiana Jones

05-14-2014, 05:00 AM

What? Have Microsoft suddenly stopped hiring idiots?

NeoCracker

05-14-2014, 05:57 AM

Oh no, they are still hiring idiots. It's not going to be long before they do something else to piss everyone off. Perhaps not with XBone, but in general. :p

I actually think all three big companies can pull through this generation. Sony started off strong, XBox may not be able to keep up due to lacking system power and less exlusives for the same price, but after this they should be gathering up a bit more steam (Of course we'll see how many developers have been told they have to include kinect functionality only for this news to come as a shock to them. :p), and if the leaked nintendo lineup for E3 is true, the Wii U may finally start to get out of the 'there are no good games for it' rut it is currently in.

But yeah, good on Microsoft for, once again, caving in on their stupidity thus far regarding the XBone. It'll be nice to keep the competion a bit more lively. :p

Pike

05-14-2014, 10:23 AM

Doesn't affect my opinion too much because I'm still seeing no compelling reason to buy any next-gen console at this point. But I guess this makes it at least a bit more likely that I'd lean for Microsoft again. I know this is supremely uncool to say but I've liked them since the original Xbox.

Slothy

05-14-2014, 10:54 AM

Dat Matt

05-14-2014, 01:09 PM

Everyone has a preference. Mine is nintendo so dont expect judgement for liking one over another.

While I think the news is good for new customers, I still think its a spit in the face for early adopters. Consider if you bought a day 1 Xbox one because you were excited that all games would have the kinect functionality through physical motions, voice commands etc. These functions can no longer be intergral as the user base will opt for the cheaper option without kinect rather than the more expensive model. Will me a minority, but it's still insulting. (Disclaimer - the above is opinion. I personally hate motion controls, but like to think of all parties when talking about removing features.)

Edit - the consoles are severely lacking when compared to PCs, and comments suggesting the hardware for the next gen consoles is the equivalent of a top spec PC from 2009. There was report that watch dogs will not run at 1080p and at 60fps on next gten consoles. Instead they'll run at 900p/30fps (ps4), and 792p/30fps (Xbox one). PC gamers will have no issue with getting 1080p/60fps, so long as thier machine is built for it, and it can be upgraded if necessary.

A game this month is going to be 1080p/60fps on consoles though. Mario kart 8.

Skyblade

05-14-2014, 01:24 PM

Everyone has a preference. Mine is nintendo so dont expect judgement for liking one over another.

While I think the news is good for new customers, I still think its a spit in the face for early adopters. Consider if you bought a day 1 Xbox one because you were excited that all games would have the kinect functionality through physical motions, voice commands etc. These functions can no longer be intergral as the user base will opt for the cheaper option without kinect rather than the more expensive model. Will me a minority, but it's still insulting. (Disclaimer - the above is opinion. I personally hate motion controls, but like to think of all parties when talking about removing features.)

Yeah, this is what I got out of it. People who picked up a system based on the promises of its capability are going to be quite upset, because we aren't going to see too many Kinect driven games now.

There's also this concern, which holds for both early adopters and people currently looking for a system:54500

Microsoft has no idea what they want to do with the system. They've changed so many policies and systems that their product is going to appear poorer because of it. Every time they pull a feature while the PS4 doesn't, the XBone is going to appear weaker by comparison. When it's running a neck and neck race with another console, I don't know that it can afford that.

I am curious to see whether Nintendo could do something similar by selling the Wii U without the GamePad, and what that would do to the Wii U's future and sales.

Psychotic

05-14-2014, 01:27 PM

Microsoft have been pulling U-Turns ever since the Xbone was announced. Whoever the fuck was in charge of their strategy and design plans is clearly completely out of touch. I wonder if they would be so obsessed with Kinect had the Wii failed. Either way, as Huxley says props to them for taking immediate corrective action but I wonder if it's a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Slothy

05-14-2014, 01:46 PM

Honestly, if anyone was expecting every game to have kinect support and for that to be a good thing then they were delusional. The most useful thing about the kinect is the voice options. Which is pretty sad really. But motion controls haven't amounted to much more than a gimmick, and the Kinect is by far the worst implementation of motion controls given it's complete lack of any physical feedback, and possessing the worst level of motion tracking fidelity.

I honestly think the inclusion of the Kinect was nothing more than a refusal to drop it, and a quick and easy way to sell the console for a premium.

Bolivar

05-14-2014, 02:33 PM

Microsoft still have absurd amounts of money to throw around at attracting talent and buying exclusives

They already tried that:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/133834-Despite-Titanfall-The-PS4-Still-Outsold-the-Xbox-One-in-March

Scotty_ffgamer

05-14-2014, 02:36 PM

Possibly to further put the nail in the coffin for Kinect, Microsoft has supposedly been in talks with developers to try to get more power out of the system for their games now that resources don't have to be mitigated to Kinect. (http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/14/xbox-one-performance-could-become-more-powerful-without-kinect)

Dat Matt

05-14-2014, 04:07 PM

I am curious to see whether Nintendo could do something similar by selling the Wii U without the GamePad, and what that would do to the Wii U's future and sales.

To be honest, I don't know about this. While having a system without the touch screen probably wouldn't change much for the system now, we haven't yet seen any games to my knowledge where the Wii u gamepad gas positively impacted gameplay. To have a game that revolves around the use of the gamepad would be very interesting to see.

That and the Wii u is already behind even last gen tech, so it needs something to differentiate from the crowd.

Loony BoB

05-14-2014, 04:20 PM

The voice commands were actually one of the only things about the Xbone that interested me, so I guess this doesn't really mean much to me at all. Of course, I'm still waiting until after I upgrade my PC before I buy a PS4. I'll probably get one around the time that a killer game appears, and it may be that FFXV is the game that forces me into the fray. But for now, nothing seems obvious. PC upgrade takes priority because of Star Citizen and the fact that our current ones are starting to struggle.

Madame Adequate

05-14-2014, 05:26 PM

and without that gimmick it remains to be seen whether the platform has the chops to compete. My hunch would be that it does and that Bolivar is overstating the issues with memory

I'm not so sure he's overstating it. Both consoles are essentially running the same APU with the XBone actually being clocked higher than the PS4's and companies still aren't getting as much power out of it. Makes me wonder if it'll be able to keep up later on. Not that I really care that much since I don't want either, but it is looking like the XBone will be playing second fiddle in the horsepower race this gen.

I didn't mean to imply the issue doesn't exist, it does, and it'll be a problem for MS especially later in the generation. I am not, however, certain that it will make the difference between success and failure. Perhaps it will, as I said it's only a hunch on my part.

Microsoft still have absurd amounts of money to throw around at attracting talent and buying exclusives

They already tried that:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/133834-Despite-Titanfall-The-PS4-Still-Outsold-the-Xbox-One-in-March

You'll forgive me if I don't pass final judgment on a console generation likely to last seven or eight years a mere six months into it.

Bolivar

05-14-2014, 06:23 PM

They will probably keep up with multiplats, but the gap will widen between Xbox One and PS4/PC.

Bolivar is overstating the issues with memory

I didn't mean to imply the issue doesn't exist, it does, and it'll be a problem for MS especially later in the generation.

Lol

You'll forgive me if I don't pass final judgment on a console generation likely to last seven or eight years a mere six months into it.

Never mentioned final judgments, just pointing out that they already cracked open the war chest like a piñata, for no less the spiritual successor to Call of Duty, by its original developers. They gave the game away for free with the console and even cut the price on it. They fell further behind.

If you're hoping they'll money hat their way out of this situation, you're in for quite a disappointment.

Madame Adequate

05-15-2014, 07:09 PM

Lol

Nothing I said is contradictory or anything so...?

Never mentioned final judgments, just pointing out that they already cracked open the war chest like a piñata, for no less the spiritual successor to Call of Duty, by its original developers. They gave the game away for free with the console and even cut the price on it. They fell further behind.

If you're hoping they'll money hat their way out of this situation, you're in for quite a disappointment.

I'm not 'hoping' for anything except a bunch of good videogames to play. All I'm saying is that they've still got a huge war chest and that we cannot foresee what they will have achieved with that five or seven years from now. Are they disappointed that Titanfall hasn't crushed all opposition? I'm certain of it. Are they disappointed with the XBone's performance to date? They must be devastated, the numbers must be atrocious if they're throwing out their core Kinect element. Doesn't mean we can necessarily discount them as an important factor this generation. They certainly have their work cut out for them though.

Loony BoB

05-16-2014, 12:00 PM

Aye, I agree - it's not like consoles suddenly getting a surge of sales after a pricedrop or anything similar hasn't happened before. The 3DS in particular springs to mind as a console that initially struggled, they cut the price considerably and I believe the sales kicked in like a monsoon.

Dat Matt

05-16-2014, 03:47 PM

That and they released a strong game or two for the system every month from March 2013. Here's a list for Europe, omitting shovelware and things I thought were more niche:

March 2013 - Castlevania - Lord of Shadow: Mirror of Fate, Luigi's Mansion 2, Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate
April 2013 - Fire Emblem Awakening
May 2013 - Donkey Kong Country Returns , Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Gates to infinity
June 2013 - Animal Crossing - New Leaf
July 2013 - Mario and Luigi Dream Team Bros
August 2013 - Etrian Oddesy IV, Harvest Moon: A New Beginning
September 2013 - Shin Megami Tensei Soul Hackers
October 2013 - Pokemon X/Y
November 2013 - Professor Layton and the Azran Legacy, Legend of Zelda: A Link between Worlds
December 2013 - Bravely Default: Where the Fairy Flies

Finish one game, have a break and next month there is a new game waiting for you. That's why the 3DS is crushing the vita. Things to note about this list is that they are all exclusives With the exception of Castlevania [Multi platform] and Monster Hunter 3 [Nintendo Exclusive].

Shauna and I did some research into the next gen consoles in regards to exclusive games. Minus any games that are [e.g titanfall for XB1 / XB360 / 360 ] and [e.g Family Party: 30 Great Games Obstacle Arcade for Wii U] our opinion is that there are 10 exclusive games worth playing on the Wii U right now.

How many on both PS4 Xbox One? 2. Killzone Shadowfall / Infamous Second son for the PS4, and Dead Rising 3 / Forza 5 for the Xbox one. And yet people went nuts for these consoles with nothing to play on them. A workmate of mine bought a PS4, but doesn't own any games for it. So he watches nextflix on it.

Bolivar

05-16-2014, 07:45 PM

To be brutally honest, I wouldn't even put Shadow Fall on that list and this is coming from a BIG Killzone fan!

Lol but to be fair, there's a difference between these systems not having hardly any true exclusives (unavailable on other platforms) and having "nothing to play on them." They both have a lot of games that aren't on the Wii U, for example. I also play games like Blacklight and Mercenary Kings that I wouldn't normally play on Steam (being free doesn't hurt either).

Jiro

05-17-2014, 09:40 AM

These consoles offered players nothing and I expect the sales reflect that.

Dat Matt

05-17-2014, 10:24 AM

The most recent figures puts the PS4 at 7 million units shipped, the Wii u at 6.2 million units shipped and the xb1 at 5 million units shipped. I find it strange the Ps4 is doing the best currently. I suppose thsts the power of marketing and not using a dumb name.

Jiro

05-17-2014, 11:19 AM

A lot of people don't want to feel like they are behind and will buy the new consoles out of habit. They do not like to wait, and so they shell out for their favourite(s). I'm not sure why the PS4 is winning, but the Wii U also has the issue of not exactly being next gen, not offering a worthwhile library, and having its core demographic be uninterested and unfamiliar with the console generation cycle. I know it is very early days still, but the three of them are only like 170% the sales of the Dreamcast.

Skyblade

05-17-2014, 02:16 PM

I'm not sure why the PS4 is winning.

Well, the PS3 had done better by the end of the last generation than the Xbox 360 did, so there were more people with brand loyalty. During last year's E3 and pre-release hype run, the PS4's marketing absolutely crushed that of the Xbone. Heck, "Xbone" was a name given out of general derision for Microsoft's incredibly bad handling of the early press events. Microsoft also had a more expensive machine, and has made a history of massive design changes and has not had a consistent vision for the console.

Plus, everyone who really wants to play Titanfall would just get the PC version. PC is becoming more and more of a mainstream competitor in the gaming market, and Microsoft's tendency to have 95% of their best games available on the PC is probably not helping.

Dat Matt

05-17-2014, 02:45 PM

Skyblade

05-17-2014, 02:55 PM

Well, the PS3 had done better by the end of the last generation than the Xbox 360 did, so there were more people with brand loyalty.

That and the PS3 was a superior machine. It was expensive in it's early days due to the Blu Ray player, but as the generation has gone on and Blu Ray is now being pushed as the advanced DVD experience, Having a cheap blue ray that also plays games is more appealing than one that does not have Blu Ray capabilities. Currently you can get an Xbox 250GB model for £120. This is more expensive that then 320GB Slim PS3 which is £110. Sony won in the long run against Microsoft.

Agreed. I was just saying that, as far as it affects future sales, the PlayStation name would have more people loyal to it than the Xbox name.

Plus, everyone who really wants to play Titanfall would just get the PC version
This is the reason that I omitted it from my previous list of exclusives for the Xbox One. If a game has the option to be played on the PC over the consoles then that's going to cripple it. I did some research there and I cannot find any data to suggest the sales figures per format. Just that there are 925K sales at last count, and 60% of these are for the Xbox One. That's 555k sales by m count. That's pretty bad for a "Big Title". Even Super Mario 3D world sold 2.17 Million copies.

I don't want to assume, but I think Microsoft is in trouble here. With the poor sales figures and the constant change in polices the Xbox one is clearly the weakest of all three consoles at the minute.

I know that's why you didn't mention it, but I wanted to bring it up, because all the hype surrounding it pushed it as a system seller, and that's clearly what Microsoft wanted it to be. But its ability to do that is crippled by the fact that you can play it on a PC that you've had sitting around for five years.

I am actually surprised that the Xbone is doing worse than the Wii U, though. Just because everyone harps on how badly Nintendo is screwing up with their console, and yet no one is even mentioning the other next-gen systems. I guess the Wii U has been out longer, did it factor that in?

Dat Matt

05-17-2014, 03:53 PM

Skyblade

05-17-2014, 03:59 PM

Nintendoomed is a favorite of mine in regards to the Wii U. The issue with the Wii U is that is isn't as well advertised as the Wii was to draw in the casual market, and it doesn't have the games for the Hardcore market to get interested. Mario Kart and Smash are the first port of call for the latter. and perhaps dome of the "E3" Games due to be announced such as Zelda: Shards of Nightmare, Xenoworld etc.

Not heard any big news from Microsoft other than Halo 5: Guardians, or FFXV from Sony.

Mario Kart is a game for the "hardcore" now?

I understand what you're saying. But that's my point. Everyone is harping about how poorly the Wii U is doing. But apparently the Xbone is doing even worse, and no one mentions it.

Jiro

05-17-2014, 04:02 PM

I'm not sure why the PS4 is winning because they are offering just as little as the XBOX ONE. Certainly, the PS4 owns a lot to the late success of its predecessor, but I expect them all to flounder until they actually deliver something. I cannot think of an appropriate metaphor, but this generation of consoles is incredibly lacklustre so far and not a one of them deserves to win. It's simply a matter of which one deserves to lose less.

Bolivar

05-17-2014, 04:21 PM

When you think about all the biggest games that have dominated in the last few years - Battlefield, Assassin's Creed, FIFA, Call of Duty, Need for Speed - all those games have released on next gen consoles. I know those games probably don't appeal to EoFF that much but they do to the broader demographic. Those are the games that sell systems, more than any exclusive that either Microsoft or Sony has. And as I bring up in other threads, PS4 has had a free game on PlayStation Plus every month since launch, in addition to an already strong offering of high quality free to play titles. Again, those games might not be appealing to EoFF but they do make a very overall enticing platform for people like me and that's why the system has been sold out until only very recently.

For context, Microsoft isn't doing bad by any measure - they're outpacing the 360 launch year and are #2 every month. The only problem with not being #1 is that USA and UK are their biggest fans, they don't have the same global appeal as Sony or Nintendo. So they can't afford to fall behind in those markets or they'll have a very mediocre worldwide presence. That said, those are very big markets and they likely will continue to do very well there.

I also wouldn't worry about PC harming them too much. I know the year I played Call of Duty on Steam, the daily player count was approximately 1% of what it is on PSN, much less Xbox Live. There are a few PC centric franchises that do well on there but it's still very niche.

Dat Matt

05-17-2014, 04:35 PM

Mario Kart is a game for the "hardcore" now?

I consider it "hardcore" in the sense that it's a major Game for the Wii U as a central franchise. Not so much in the sense that only true fans will pick it up, like Bravely Default. Can't think of a better word for it than "Hardcore" though. Popular, probably

For context, Microsoft isn't doing bad by any measure - they're outpacing the 360 launch year and are #2 every month. The only problem with not being #1 is that USA and UK are their biggest fans, they don't have the same global appeal as Sony or Nintendo. So they can't afford to fall behind in those markets or they'll have a very mediocre worldwide presence. That said, those are very big markets and they likely will continue to do very well there.

Isn't this because they staggered the release of the Xbox One? The only released in Australia, Austria, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Mexico, New Zealand, Spain, UK, and USA. It is due to release in 26 more in September (http://news.xbox.com/2014/03/xbox-one-new-markets), but this is still not worldwide. Perhaps these more niche markets is why it's the lowest selling of the three.

I also wouldn't worry about PC harming them too much. I know the year I played Call of Duty on Steam, the daily player count was approximately 1% of what it is on PSN, much less Xbox Live. There are a few PC centric franchises that do well on there but it's still very niche.

I understand things like Call of Duty are pretty Niche on PC. Games like Battlefield 4 though are played most on PS4 -> PS3 -> PC -> Xbox 360 -> Xbox One based on the most recent details from BF4stats.com . The Xbox 360 + Xbox One combined don't even match that of PC players.

Loony BoB

05-19-2014, 03:21 PM

I wonder if the problem the Wii U has goes back to the Wii. I mean, I never saw the Wii as competition for the PC, PS3 or 360. Why is that? I just see it as this "other thing" that exists outside of my general gaming nature. There could be a lot of things that build up to this. I've outlined some I feel personally affect my interest in a Nintendo console.

The Wii targeted a casual demographic. Do you really expect a casual market to buy a new console at every turn? Do you expect the Wii U's second console to be something that realistically caters to a casual market when compared to the high success of the extremely basic Wii controller?

Nintendo refuse to put their games on anything but Nintendo products. Most young gamers I know don't know Nintendo stuff nearly as well as older generations did. It's like SEGA all over again. At some point you need to grab a new audience with new games, and I feel that Pokémon in particular has not aged well, let alone Mario and co. I know they still sell well and that's great, but I feel they are not competition because they live in their own little Nintendo bubble. I want a console that does more than Mario, Pokémon and comic-y sports games. I want more than little cartoony characters. I want gritty with my whimsy. Nintendo won't market this at all, and therefore they alienate a large audience. They rarely market third party products, if ever. The things that most made me want to buy a Nintendo console were all non-Nintendo products... Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles, Last Story and a potential Timesplitters sequel.

Essentially Nintendo live off Nintendo fans more than anything else. If that works for them, great, but I simply don't look at Nintendo as a valid competitor for my interests because of all the Nintendo in their Nintendo while Nintendo Nintendos Nintendo.

Consider that the biggest thing for Nintendo to happen in recent years to get them new long term, spending fans is not the Nintendo Wii picking up lots of casuals who won't buy a new game, but rather the Pokémon TV series. By putting their product outside of a Nintendo console, they gained floods upon floods of fans. Why not put a Mario game onto PC/360/PS3? People like me might actually bother to get it, get caught up in the Mario frenzy that apparently exists and they will get new fans. Instead I haven't played a Mario game since I can remember. Seriously, I think the last Mario game I played was Mario Kart and I think that was... what... 14 years ago?

Shauna

05-19-2014, 03:24 PM

Your entire post is why Nintendo (specifically the WiiU) is floundering, and everyone knows it. Except Nintendo, probably.

Loony BoB

05-19-2014, 03:27 PM

Someday they will release a PC-based Pokémon MMO in which you can capture every Pokémon without the need to attend special events and the entire world will go fucking mental for Nintendo all over again.

Dat Matt

05-19-2014, 03:57 PM

I mean, I never saw the Wii as competition for the PC, PS3 or 360. Why is that? I just see it as this "other thing" that exists outside of my general gaming nature.

I understand what you mean here. Nintendo seems to do what Nintendo does, and has removed itself from the "Console wars" so to speak. When I commented to someone I liked games, he asked me if I rallied for Sony or Microsoft. I said Nintendo and retorted "Oh yeah, those guys". They tend to just do their own thing these days which is pushing attempting to do what the others don't.

The Wii targeted a casual demographic. Do you really expect a casual market to buy a new console at every turn?

To be fair, the Casual market was never Nintendo's origonal focus. They saw motion controls, a market that had never been introduced to a home sitting, and ate it up. When they saw "I can play bowling in my own home by using this machine, it's like the real thing" it went from there. It's one of the reasons there are so many crap games of "50 in 1 party games" for the Wii. The issue is, the Casual market turned to the next big thing, which was games like Clash of Clans and Candy crush. Many of the "casual" people I know that bought Wii units haven't used them in 2+ years.

I want more than little cartoony characters. I want gritty with my whimsy.The things that most made me want to buy a Nintendo console were all non-Nintendo products... Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles, Last Story and a potential Timesplitters sequel.

I agree with you on that fact that nintendo is first and foremost a family console, and they could use a bit more "Gritty" content. At the same time though, when I'm plaything through a Gears of War game on my Xbox with is super manly filled with blood, guts and heartbreak I need the fallback of family friendly Nintendo to counterbalance. I associate Xbox with "Western Games" filled with space marines and guns and swearing, but Nintendo with Light hearted games that I enjoy playing more than shooters.

Truth betold, I wish Nintendo would push games like Metroid and F-Zero more, because I am bored as all hell of Mario games. I still enjoy them when I play them, but I dislike that it's a annual franchise (if not bi-annual). Nintendo has lost the support of a lot of 3rd party developers, and I don't thing Monolith Software, Retro Games and Platinum Games are going to be enough for them to keep the attention of players.

Essentially Nintendo live off Nintendo fans more than anything else. If that works for them, great, but I simply don't look at Nintendo as a valid competitor for my interests because of all the Nintendo in their Nintendo while Nintendo Nintendos Nintendo.

Entirely true. The issue with Nintendo while it has strong franchises you can't get elsewhere like Zelda, Metriod, Kirby etc many of these have not even been discussed for next gen. If a new Metriod game came out multiplatform, it would be superior on Xbox one, but the loss of sales of the Wii U hardware would be a bigger loss to Nintendo overall despite the increase sales.

Honestly, I don't think Nintendo are doing too hot just now. They've released 3 Mario Games on the Wii U, 1 Pikmin and one Donkey Kong game. That's there input from the franchises they've built up these years. They just aren't pushing out the variety of the full nintedo Catalogue. I would love to see Nintendo hit a new markets, but all the "Casual Market" are playing Madden, Call of Duty or Candy Crush. They need to win back people that drifted off in previous generations to Sony/Microsoft by offering something that they don't.

They've got 3 advantages right now against the PS4 and Xbox one right now:

1. It's the cheapest console of the three
2. It's currently got the most exclusives of the three (as a result of being out a year early)
3. It has a tablet interface that the other two systems do not.

They've very poorly utilised the year they had prior to the release of their competitors, but by offering something that the competitors do not as well as having a strong library is all that the consoles need to sell. That's the reason the 3DS and Wii have done so well.

Loony BoB

05-19-2014, 04:18 PM

Many of the "casual" people I know that bought Wii units haven't used them in 2+ years.
Ditto, but for basically everyone I know that had a Wii. The fact that I hear more about the Wii from my 50-something year old mother in law than I do from people my age sums it up. What sums it up even more so is that my 50-something year old mother in law does not play it very often and I would not be surprised if she hasn't played it in the past year.

I agree with you on that fact that nintendo is first and foremost a family console, and they could use a bit more "Gritty" content. At the same time though, when I'm plaything through a Gears of War game on my Xbox with is super manly filled with blood, guts and heartbreak I need the fallback of family friendly Nintendo to counterbalance. I associate Xbox with "Western Games" filled with space marines and guns and swearing, but Nintendo with Light hearted games that I enjoy playing more than shooters.
This is why I find the PC and PS3 have been the highlight for me - they offer variety without the need to switch consoles. I can switch from gritty and dark to cartoony and whimsical by switching between games and they are all good, numerous and popular.

Truth betold, I wish Nintendo would push games like Metroid and F-Zero more, because I am bored as all hell of Mario games. I still enjoy them when I play them, but I dislike that it's a annual franchise (if not bi-annual). Nintendo has lost the support of a lot of 3rd party developers, and I don't thing Monolith Software, Retro Games and Platinum Games are going to be enough for them to keep the attention of players.
Thing is, I don't know what Metroid and F-Zero are because I didn't grow up on Nintendo. What Nintendo needs is not One More Game Featuring Your Favourite Thirty Year Old Character, but A Group Of New IP's and Multiple Exclusives By World Famous, Massive and Highly Respected Third Party Developers. Nintendo needs to un-Nintendo it's Nintendo. As someone who has rarely touched Nintendo products, I can say that I don't give a rat's arse about Metroid or Mario. If they want to grab me, they need to get TimeSplitters, Last Story, Final Fantasy and (of course) a Pokémon MMO mixed in with a game titled Badass Mothertruckers. They need to shake the impression that they are nothing but whimsical, they need to have titles that carry the interest of non-Nintendo fans. They need hooks. Right now, they have no hooks for new fans, they are simply fishing in their own bucket of fanfish.

Until they do so, I will see them as stuck in the past and living on past ventures. You said in your post that what Nintendo's thing is "pushing attempting to do what the other's dont." The only thing they are pushing is exactly what they have been pushing since the 70's.

Now, I love M*A*S*H, but I don't watch the reruns and I would have no interest in a sequel nor would I have any interest in the M*A*S*H 3D.

EDIT: Oh, and regarding the second advantage - the exclusive titles mean little to someone who a) hasn't heard of them and b) has no Nintendo fanboy blood... exclusives are only good when you also have the games that are released on the other consoles, otherwise you're not so much a console of exclusives, more so an excluded console...

Dat Matt

05-19-2014, 04:55 PM

Only 2 things I want to comment on, I hate long posts xD

You said in your post that what Nintendo's thing is "pushing attempting to do what the other's dont." The only thing they are pushing is exactly what they have been pushing since the 70's.

What I intended by this post was that Nintendo pushes for innovation where the others don't. The last console, the Wii offered motion controls, and both the PS3 and Xbox 360 adopted similar practices. Motion controls are not interesting anymore, so Nintendo moved to having a tablet interface on top of games. They've yet to do anything interesting with this hardware yet, but I am interested to see what the tablet inface will hold. If it turns into just another party game gimmick then I'll renounce the Wii U as a console. (from what I know, the only function the Wii U controller functions as in Mario Kart 8 is a horn. That could have been assigned to any button and provided the player with a map or something). The DS was also an innovation by offering a 2 screens, as well as a touch screen. 3DS updates the top screen to have a 3D effect. Nintendo pushes for innovated changes in the hardware. Nintendo do rely on a few franchise to be cash cows, which is why they can take risks and try and offer Variety. It is however, why they are miles behind the other hardware. That being said though, people are debating the other two next gen consoles abilites when Mario Kart is 1080p 60fps, while watchdogs is only 792p 30fps on Xbox One.

Hell even things like the Gameboy and Virtual boy were innovative. Virtual boy flopped hard but at least they attempted something weird and new. They are doing the same thing with the Wii U, which is also failing consider Wii U units are still selling at a loss per unit sold.

Regarding the second advantage - the exclusive titles mean little to someone who a) hasn't heard of them and b) has no Nintendo fanboy blood... exclusives are only good when you also have the games that are released on the other consoles, otherwise you're not so much a console of exclusives, more so an excluded console...

They could do much better with the promotion of their games. It's strange to me that someone does not know What Metroid and F-Zero is in 2014, but it's understandable as Nintendo have done nothing to advertise them in recent years (to my understanding. I tend to ignore advertisements anyway). Funny thing is, Nintendo have gone and released one new IP for the Wii U so far, called "The Wonderful 101". Only thing I know about it is that you control 101 superheroes to fight for justice and each member of your team has special unique abilites that when combined can turn into things like giant swords controlled on the touch screen. I seem to have missed all if any advertising for this game, so I cannot actually comment if it looks good or not before playing it. Suppose that's another issue with Nintendo's Draconian polices.

Loony BoB

05-19-2014, 05:36 PM

I agree that they innovate when you look at hardware. Unfortunately with hardware innovation you need software innovation to back it up. Nintendo lack in a massive way any real software innovation. I mean, I can't say for certain as I don't play on them much, but Pokémon and Mario Kart are both excellent examples of how to release the same game over and over and over and over and over again. Sony may not have much hardware innovation by comparison, but what they do have is Flower, Journey and Final Fantasy. These games innovate because they do things differently each time. I don't know how much Metroid or Super Mario Brothers innovate, but... yeah. Zelda, perhaps?

They could do much better with the promotion of their games. It's strange to me that someone does not know What Metroid and F-Zero is in 2014
I've heard of the former, absolutely, and seen some pics. It looks old and archaic from what I've seen. I'm guessing there are more modern variations. Are they more innovative and new, or more remakes of the older games?

but it's understandable as Nintendo have done nothing to advertise them in recent years (to my understanding. I tend to ignore advertisements anyway). Funny thing is, Nintendo have gone and released one new IP for the Wii U so far, called "The Wonderful 101". Only thing I know about it is that you control 101 superheroes to fight for justice and each member of your team has special unique abilites that when combined can turn into things like giant swords controlled on the touch screen. I seem to have missed all if any advertising for this game, so I cannot actually comment if it looks good or not before playing it. Suppose that's another issue with Nintendo's Draconian polices.
Yeah, you're right. It's no good if nobody knows about it. You need hype. Sony hypes even third party games, so I don't see why Nintendo can't but then again, it's Nintendo, and Nintendo only Nintendos Nintendo. I just searched for "The Wonderful 101" and the reviews seem pretty good, particularly user reviews. Although apparently it's the kind of game that you have to play over and over again and hone skills and improve scores and that isn't really my bag. :S

EDIT: Wait, I'm sure I've seen something about that ages ago, looking at the images. It looks like it would be fun for co-op.

Dat Matt

05-19-2014, 06:40 PM

I agree that they innovate when you look at hardware. Unfortunately with hardware innovation you need software innovation to back it up. Nintendo lack in a massive way any real software innovation. I mean, I can't say for certain as I don't play on them much, but Pokémon and Mario Kart are both excellent examples of how to release the same game over and over and over and over and over again. Sony may not have much hardware innovation by comparison, but what they do have is Flower, Journey and Final Fantasy. These games innovate because they do things differently each time. I don't know how much Metroid or Super Mario Brothers innovate, but... yeah. Zelda, perhaps?

Mario Games tend to follow the same sort of Format - Run though a level, Collect a Star/Run into a flagpole/beat a boss. No real variation there with the exception of new level design from game to game. Mario Kart is a standard racing game at it's core, what makes it different from the competition what it does differently from iteration to iteration.

Double Dash - Allowed for 2 riders at one time,
Wii - Bikes as well as Karts
Mario Kart 7 - offers vehicle customisation and a flying mechanic and underwater racing
Mario Kart 8 - Is dabbling with anti-gravity.

Each adds something new each time. Pokemon doesn't change much from game to game, but it does expand itself with each generation. Each is a "New" with new pokemon, new regions, new updates to pokemon (Most notability to Mega-evolve Pokemon in this generation) game with all the content of the last.

I've heard of the former, absolutely, and seen some pics. It looks old and archaic from what I've seen. I'm guessing there are more modern variations. Are they more innovative and new, or more remakes of the older games?

Metriod is separated into 2D Sidescollers, and 3D FPS games. Each use the same sort of mechanics (Samus has a gun, she shoots aliens) she gets powerups as the game progresses. The last game they released was their Second Wii Game "Other M" which apparently was terrible.

Loony BoB

05-19-2014, 07:15 PM

While the changes you mentioned are indeed changes, I wouldn't call them innovation on the level seen amongst other consoles. This is just throwing something in so it isn't exactly the same. Admittedly a lot of other series do this as well, but with Sony & MS they can rely on a variety of developers to crack out new and innovative IPs that are promoted almost equally to that of their in-house products, while Nintendo's big lists are essentially "The Same Games You Saw Last Generation... With An Extra Minigame!" or something. =/

Again, though, the Wonderful 101 sounds cool. It's a shame they don't do the smart thing and plug this. If you think about it, the last two times Nintendo marketed fantastically were both to do with new things - the DS sold big when Nintendogs came out and the Wii sold big when they advertised a number of Wii Sport/Fit kind of things. Neither were Nintendo, Zelda or anything. Perhaps they'll learn eventually!

Skyblade

05-19-2014, 07:25 PM

Nintendo releasing their games on multiple consoles would be the worst thing they could do. It would absolutely destroy them as a hardware producer. As soon as they made that shift, they would basically never sell another console.

Nintendo's problems are fairly complex right now. Their first problem is actually the tablet controller. It's innovative from a hardware stance, but it requires innovation from a software stance to be back it up. If you want to program a game for the Wii U, you need to program for the GamePad. This means a lot of extra programming for your game, and it makes it more difficult to port it to other consoles, because it would lack the GamePad features. A few companies may be willing to risk this, but not many. This makes it harder for Nintendo to pull in third party publishers, and that is where their major flaws lie.

You talk about Sony being innovative. It isn't, at all. What it has is a system that caters enough to third party and indie devs that it allows them to be innovative with its system. Flower, Journey, and Final Fantasy aren't Sony products (and Final Fantasy is hardly selling because of "innovation", just an FYI), they're third party products that have done incredibly well on Sony consoles.

Nintendo lacks this on the Wii U. They have it in spades on the 3DS. There are a host of

Also, Nintendo does innovate in software, even on its major franchises. If you take a look at The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds, at first glance it will seem like just a High Definition version of Link to the Past. But it is actually is one of the most innovative games in the franchise, serving up a huge amount of changes to the series formula (all of which works brilliantly).

Then too, innovation is not everything. Hell, Game Theory said it far better than I ever could:
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But let's take the recently released Yoshi's New Island. This game has been blasted by critics for bringing nothing new to the series, for being a stale copy of the original. The thing is, I never got to play the original, and after I saw it speedrun in AGDQ2014, I wanted to try it. So I bought the new one, and it has fulfilled my expectations brilliantly. It wasn't new, but I don't get games just because they're new. Sometimes, when you have something that works, iteration on the concept and basis is all you need. There are a ton of older, Nintendo era games that I would happily play today. There are tons more which are new to me, which I would probably enjoy if I got around to playing them. Releasing these old classics is not itself a problem. Nor is releasing iterative sequels to them (again, just look at any First Person Shooter series).

Nintendo has two major problems that I see right now. The first is lack of third party support. They aren't pulling in enough third-party developers to get a good game library on the Wii U, and they don't seem to understand the importance of doing so.

The second is lack of advertising. They either don't advertise well, or they don't know how to properly advertise their games and systems. The 3DS has actually been marketed really successfully, but the Wii U hasn't been supported nearly as well by adds. The Wii was promoted incredibly successfully because the promotion style they went with appealed to the casual market brilliantly. I don't even see promotions for the Wii U, though. Let alone promotions for any of the games. I can't watch a video online without seeing an ad for Titanfall for the 360 (even though you could get a better version of the game with better controls on the PC), yet I can't remember ever seeing an ad for Nintendo's big games.

Proper marketing could also solve their "oh, they're just a kiddy company" image. They have darker games for their systems. The 3DS has things like Bravely Default, Fire Emblem Awakening, and Shin Megami Tensei IV. Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney is another darker title that I can't wait to play. Heck, even Link Between Worlds is darker than most of the Zelda series. On the Wii U, we have titles like Bayonetta 2 and Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem coming out for the Wii U. We could see some marketing on the scale of the other consoles, an actual attempt to push the Wii U as a console for another market of gamers. But we probably aren't going to. Nintendo needs to learn how to market.

There's also the fact that they aren't properly utilizing their IP. We get three new Mario games in a year. Whoop de doo. I've never really liked Mario games either, BoB. But they aren't releasing new games for about 9/10ths of the great properties that they hold.

If they could fix these problems, they could begin to absolutely dominate the console market again. They still release fantastic games. They just don't have enough of them, they don't have the variety they'd get if they were better at attracting third party help, and they don't market them well.

Bolivar

05-19-2014, 08:23 PM

You talk about Sony being innovative. It isn't, at all. What it has is a system that caters enough to third party and indie devs that it allows them to be innovative with its system. Flower, Journey, and Final Fantasy aren't Sony products (and Final Fantasy is hardly selling because of "innovation", just an FYI), they're third party products that have done incredibly well on Sony consoles.

I'm not sure you're really up to speed on this front Sky. You just can't compare the interesting twists you mentioned in Zelda to what Little Big Planet accomplished for user generated content on consoles or the storytelling risks taken by Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls. And from what I understand, Flower and Journey were co-developed by Sony Santana Monica. Demon's Souls, arguably the most influential game of last generation, came about from a similar arrangement with Japan Studio.

If you want to make a case for Nintendo over Microsoft and Sony, innovation is not one of the categories you should pursue.

Loony BoB

05-19-2014, 08:29 PM

Nintendo releasing their games on multiple consoles would be the worst thing they could do. It would absolutely destroy them as a hardware producer. As soon as they made that shift, they would basically never sell another console.
I don't mean all their games. Just once per generation, say. Or put out another TV series or something for their next IP, I dunno. But they need to hook people in and right now they are not gaining new fans because the only way to introduce yourself to Nintendo is to buy one. There is no "try before you buy".

You talk about Sony being innovative. It isn't, at all. What it has is a system that caters enough to third party and indie devs that it allows them to be innovative with its system. Flower, Journey, and Final Fantasy aren't Sony products (and Final Fantasy is hardly selling because of "innovation", just an FYI), they're third party products that have done incredibly well on Sony consoles.
Sorry, I never intended to say that Sony were innovating software, but indeed that they actively promote software innovation and are happy to market it. Although I will note that Flower and Journey were financed entirely by Sony. Nintendo do not market the Wii U third party software at all.

Also, Nintendo does innovate in software, even on its major franchises. If you take a look at The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds, at first glance it will seem like just a High Definition version of Link to the Past. But it is actually is one of the most innovative games in the franchise, serving up a huge amount of changes to the series formula (all of which works brilliantly).
Again, this is good and all, but if it's not what is being marketed nobody is ever going to pay it much attention in the long run unless they're already using Nintendo.