Has the image of video game characters changed

[tony12]

I havn't been into gaming for quite some time and I am not up to date on all the latest games (the latest games I did go through I just watched a playthrough off of youtube).

However I noticed a very significant contrast between these two characters created about ten years apart.

http://www.terrariaonline.com/attachments/rikku_3_by_3dbabes-d38rgta-jpg.11986/


Edit. Had a pic of Ellie from Last of Us here. Didn't know how to put spoilertags so I just deleted the image.


Has the image of female characters really changed in gaming or do many of them still sexualized like Rikku was back about ten years ago. Or is a darker image like Ellie more popular than the hot beach babe type of character that Rikku was supposed to be.

I know Last of Us was a dark game naturally so you wouldn't see provactively drawn characters anyhow in that game but just curious if the animation style has really changed that much on what is considered the norm now.

[Mirage]

That's an exaggerated fan-3D rendering of Rikku, not official material. Just for the record.

[tony12]

That's an exaggerated fan-3D rendering of Rikku, not official material. Just for the record.

I know I thought it might be after I posted it. It is however the exact same clothing though that Rikku wore in the game.

Here is one from the actual game.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130209175128/finalfantasy/images/archive/c/c9/20140323210400!Rikku_yawn.jpg

[Bolivar]

It's certainly something that's on the mind of developers these days. You can't go very far on gaming sites without reading about the topic and developers frequently weigh in with their thoughts. I suppose you could call The Last of Us as a turning point or an indicative milestone, but if this is the kind of stuff that makes you cringe (reasonably so), then I'd say we still have a ways to go.

[tony12]

It's certainly something that's on the mind of developers these days. You can't go very far on gaming sites without reading about the topic and developers frequently weigh in with their thoughts. I suppose you could call The Last of Us as a turning point or an indicative milestone, but if this is the kind of stuff that makes you cringe (reasonably so), then I'd say we still have a ways to go.

No I personally don't care if they tried to make a teenage character cool because she was bubbly and walked around in a bikinni all game long. Or if they tried to make a teenage character look cool by sharpening her knife, shooting bows and arrows, and cussing a lot.

I was just pointing out the contrasting characterization between Rikku and Ellie and if a lot of games have gotten away from over sexualizing their characters.

I guess you could say though that characters like Ellie are still sexualized as well but just in a different way than all the skin showing characters they have had in the past.

[Sephiroth]

It is pretty hard to oversexualize a fourteen year old lesbian girl in a dying world. We have Lightning for that. And I like both Lightning and Ellie.

[tony12]

It is pretty hard to oversexualize a fourteen year old lesbian girl in a dying world. We have Lightning for that. And I like both Lightning and Ellie.

Lol, are you one of the ones that think that one kiss was meant to mean she was a lesbian?

[Sephiroth]

Lol, are you one of the ones that think that one kiss was meant to mean she was a lesbian?

It has nothing to do with thinking. It has been stated that Left Behind was even written with the idea of her being a lesbian.

[tony12]

Lol, are you one of the ones that think that one kiss was meant to mean she was a lesbian?

It has nothing to do with thinking. It has been stated that Left Behind was even written with the idea of her being a lesbian.

Where exactly did you get that from? I've heard from the people that worked on the game that the kiss was only meant to imply how close their friendship was and not if they wanted to have sex with eachother.

[Sephiroth]

Where exactly did you get that from? I've heard from the people that worked on the game that the kiss was only meant to imply how close their friendship was and not if they wanted to have sex with eachother.


http://gaygamer.net/2014/02/is-ellie-gay-naughty-dogs-neil-druckmann-weighs-in-on-the-last-of-us-left-behind/

[Ayen]

My god, a lesbian interracial couple.

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES THE INTERNET IS GOING TO EXPLODE!

[Bolivar]

Just an FYI please tag spoilers as such if anything on Ellie potentially spoils The Last of Us (no, I don't consider her orientation a spoiler).

[Sephiroth]

Of course she could still be bicurious (with the tendency to women then as it seems) but what is in Left Behind is definitely one true and stated part about her. For the whole bicurious thing I may refer to her looking at a men magazine and saying she wants to see what is so great about it.



Regardless of what Druckman said he was thinking when he was trying to write that particular scene I don't think too much should be made of one kiss in a post apocalyptic world where you will really try to cling to people you tend to get a long with no matter which sex they are.

So basically you say no matter what creators say it doesn't matter. And that makes stories in general useless as they are written with an intention and if that intention is ignored it is not the true story.



I'm saying that one kiss doesn't necessarily mean that much (especially in the world they were living in). I also do wonder if a site titled gaygamer might possibly have an agenda. Also they obviously did not have the whole Riley and Ellie relationship planned out from the get go. In that same article you linked to they said they had already told the platonic story of Joel and Ellie, the friendship between Ellie and Riley in the comics, and so they said they started brainstorming on what they could do next for the dlc. It's entirely likely that they never intended Ellie from the original game to be gay.

It means everything if he says he planned it, no matter if that was from that point on or before. They have the rights, they decide. And he said, they didn't want it to be to obvious but also not top subtle so the kiss alone as well as the comment about "an idea" might technically not be unequivocal but everything together is. He wanted it to be like that and that says everything.



Well you can believe that if you wish. If they never intended Ellie to be gay in the first game though means that she likely wasn't gay in the first game. As good as storytelling as naughtydog did with the original game they sure stunk up the roof with the dlc anyhow. They virtually made the same story that they had already told in the comics. If they hinted at anything in the first game it was that Ellie and Sam were becoming quite fond of one another and that Ellie made a joke about Bill.


That has nothing to do with believing and one day you will have to accept it. My legal and intellectual property is bound to my rules and no matter if others like it, they cannot decide about it. That counts for every person who owns something, no matter if intellectual or not. Also, as much as others do, you only chose to read what you wanted because my posts even included her to probably not have been a lesbian at first. Another proof you just read what you want is that you were going for hints when I told you he even said he had no intention for it to be absolutely obvious or subtle. That still does not change the fact that it is their brand and they can write and retcon what they want. Retconning will make her a lesbian at that time though as well. They own the brand, they own the right. And what they say about the world is true. You simply didn't want her to be a lesbian which is why you started the argument in the first place. If I had said "I just thought she is" you would have said "she isn't" and now with me using a creator comment you still cannot accept it.



Sephiroth let's just hope that with Neil's personal opinions on the ending of the game that a Last of Us 2 never gets made or that they just don't follow through with his personal opinions. Let's just be glad that Neil views it as being wiser to leave things open to interpretation than to throw his own personal opinions into the games.

You are struggling against axiomatic things. Creators don't have just "personal opinions" about their game and cannot do anything about it but only thinking as if it is a possibility just as fans can; it is exactly the opposite. If they decide it to be, it is. Just as Albus Dumbledore was declared to be gay and so he is or was until he died. Create something and then let someone complain about you stating something or retconning something of your own work. It does not matter what the others say. You have the right to do so and what you say is more than just an opinion if you make it that way and Left Behind made it as canonical as possible. Neil does not "leave it open to interpretation". He wanted it. It is. And if Ellie later gets attracted to men even though she is interested in girls, she gets attracted to men. Or if they want to retcon something they can do. It is that simple. They decide, not we. And I don't hope anything because I have no problem with her liking girls. And that goes for the whole company as the whole company owns the brand. If some of those who really have a say decide, they absolutely can do so no matter if it is about the ending or Ellie's sexuality.

[tony12]

Just an FYI please tag spoilers as such if anything on Ellie potentially spoils The Last of Us (no, I don't consider her orientation a spoiler).

I don't think any spoilers have been posted so far other than just to say she wasn't sexualized like Rikku was. I do wonder if the popularity of the Hunger Games has played a part in recent years of how people choose to characterize female teenage characters.


Of course she could still be bicurious (with the tendency to women then as it seems) but what is in Left Behind is definitely one true and stated part about her. For the whole bicurious thing I may refer to her looking at a men magazine and saying she wants to see what is so great about it.

Regardless of what Druckman said he was thinking when he was trying to write that particular scene I don't think too much should be made of one kiss in a post apocalyptic world where you will really try to cling to people you tend to get a long with no matter which sex they are.


Of course she could still be bicurious (with the tendency to women then as it seems) but what is in Left Behind is definitely one true and stated part about her. For the whole bicurious thing I may refer to her looking at a men magazine and saying she wants to see what is so great about it.



Regardless of what Druckman said he was thinking when he was trying to write that particular scene I don't think too much should be made of one kiss in a post apocalyptic world where you will really try to cling to people you tend to get a long with no matter which sex they are.

So basically you say no matter what creators say it doesn't matter. And that makes stories in general useless as they are written with an intention and if that intention is ignored it is not the true story.

I'm saying that one kiss doesn't necessarily mean that much (especially in the world they were living in). I also do wonder if a site titled gaygamer might possibly have an agenda. Also they obviously did not have the whole Riley and Ellie relationship planned out from the get go. In that same article you linked to they said they had already told the platonic story of Joel and Ellie, the friendship between Ellie and Riley in the comics, and so they said they started brainstorming on what they could do next for the dlc. It's entirely likely that they never intended Ellie from the original game to be gay.

[Mirage]

That's an exaggerated fan-3D rendering of Rikku, not official material. Just for the record.

I know I thought it might be after I posted it. It is however the exact same clothing though that Rikku wore in the game.

Here is one from the actual game.


Yeah, angle and breast size kind of makes a big difference. In either case, I don't really care what she wears in FFX. It looks like a pretty warm place, and she doesn't really act in a very sexualized manner. I care a lot more about the fact that they made her two years older since FFX, but at the same rewinded her brain 4 years back, making her a total idiot, something she wasn't in the first game.

[tony12]

That's an exaggerated fan-3D rendering of Rikku, not official material. Just for the record.

I know I thought it might be after I posted it. It is however the exact same clothing though that Rikku wore in the game.

Here is one from the actual game.


Yeah, angle and breast size kind of makes a big difference. In either case, I don't really care what she wears in FFX. It looks like a pretty warm place, and she doesn't really act in a very sexualized manner. I care a lot more about the fact that they made her two years older since FFX, but at the same rewinded her brain 4 years back, making her a total idiot, something she wasn't in the first game.

Been a long, long time since I played the first game but she never really had all that many lines in the first game did she? She more or less just had the Yuffie or Selphie type of role where she just stands in the background as the youngster of the group didn't she?

[Bolivar]

She did have that line about jail bait.

[Sephiroth]

Last Mission has shown Rikku pretty serious. Yuna as well. They both were angry about each other.

[Freya]

I don't think so much that characterizations of females have changed. They have improved in some cases but I believe that it's more of the styles of games have changed. There are more dark and gritty games now than before. Everything is getting a brown tint, cause brown means realistic? And a character like Rikku wouldn't fit in in those games.

Now the strides in female characterization has vastly improved. Take the bioware games for example, they are making strides in making playable, well constructed and not very skanky unless their character calls for it, females. David Gaider, Dragon Age's Senior Writer gave a great panel/conference regarding sex in video games at last years GDC (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/29/bioware-david-gaider-sex-in-video-game/). It addresses females and the sexualization of it and how that's just lame. He addresses the Game Developers as a whole in it. It's a great listen/read.

Anyway, it's an uphill battle to include female protagonists and will be for a while because it's breaking down the whole "games are for boys" stereotype that many developers still have problems with.

Check out our former Editor Raistlin's Sexism in Final Fantasy (http://home.eyesonff.com/content.php/2256-Final-Fantasy-Sexism-Part-I-Why-It-Matters) article series.

Because even FF, even after they made Lightning be the hero, they still had to make her boobs bigger (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/151611-Editorial-Lightning-Returns-to-Sexy-Why-SE-Risks-Destroying-Lightning-s-Strengths) and gave her a cat outfit (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/151334-Article-Lightning-gets-the-Miqo-te-treatment). Sorry SE, that's defeating the whole strong female protagonist without skanky fanservice thing. Those are all things we've personally reported on.


So yes there has been a change but it's more because of the games. But there are still large steps into making it the other way that they create them because strong females are the reason.

[tony12]

It means everything if he says he planned it, no matter if that was from that point on or before. They have the rights, they decide. And he said, they didn't want it to be to obvious but also not top subtle so the kiss alone as well as the comment about "an idea" might technically not be unequivocal but everything together is. He wanted it to be like that and that says everything.

Well you can believe that if you wish. If they never intended Ellie to be gay in the first game though means that she likely wasn't gay in the first game. As good as storytelling as naughtydog did with the original game they sure stunk up the roof with the dlc anyhow. They virtually made the same story that they had already told in the comics. If they hinted at anything in the first game it was that Ellie and Sam were becoming quite fond of one another and that Ellie made a joke about Bill.


They should have taken a page from 400 Days and told a completely original story that would be completely new to the people paying for it (not just 10% new).



That has nothing to do with believing and one day you will have to accept it. My legal and intellectual property is bound to my rules and no matter if others like it, they cannot decide about it. That counts for every person who owns something, no matter if intellectual or not. Also, as much as others do, you only chose to read what you wanted because my posts even included her to probably not have been a lesbian at first. That still does not change the fact that it is their brand and they can write and retcon what they want. Retconning will make her a lesbian at that time though as well. They own the brand, they own the right. And what they say about the world is true. You simply didn't want her to be a lesbian which is why you started the argument in the first place. If I had said "I just thought she is" you would have said "she isn't" and now with me using a creator comment you still cannot accept it.

Sephiroth let's just hope that with Neil's personal opinions on the ending of the game that a Last of Us 2 never gets made or that they just don't follow through with his personal opinions. Let's just be glad that Neil views it as being wiser to leave things open to interpretation than to throw his own personal opinions into the games.



You are struggling against axiomatic things. Creators don't have just "personal opinions" about their game and cannot do anything about it but only thinking as if it is a possibility just as fans can; it is exactly the opposite. If they decide it to be, it is. Just as Albus Dumbledore was declared to be gay and so he is or was until he died. Create something and then let someone complain about you stating something or retconning something of your own work. It does not matter what the others say. You have the right to do so and what you say is more than just an opinion if you make it that way and Left Behind made it as canonical as possible. Neil does not "leave it open to interpretation". He wanted it. It is. And if Ellie later gets attracted to men even though she is interested in girls, she gets attracted to men. Or if they want to retcon something they can do. It is that simple. They decide, not we. And I don't hope anything because I have no problem with her liking girls.

Sephiroth I think it is time you drop the gay thing. This thread wasn't meant to imply rather or not Ellie was gay but instead you decided to focus in on it. Please go talk about that kind of stuff with someone else.

[tony12]

I don't think so much that characterizations of females have changed. They have improved in some cases but I believe that it's more of the styles of games have changed. There are more dark and gritty games now than before. Everything is getting a brown tint, cause brown means realistic? And a character like Rikku wouldn't fit in in those games.

Now the strides in female characterization has vastly improved. Take the bioware games for example, they are making strides in making playable, well constructed and not very skanky unless their character calls for it, females. David Gaider, Dragon Age's Senior Writer gave a great panel/conference regarding sex in video games at last years GDC (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/29/bioware-david-gaider-sex-in-video-game/). It addresses females and the sexualization of it and how that's just lame. He addresses the Game Developers as a whole in it. It's a great listen/read.

Anyway, it's an uphill battle to include female protagonists and will be for a while because it's breaking down the whole "games are for boys" stereotype that many developers still have problems with.

Check out our former Editor Raistlin's Sexism in Final Fantasy (http://home.eyesonff.com/content.php/2256-Final-Fantasy-Sexism-Part-I-Why-It-Matters) article series.

Because even FF, even after they made Lightning be the hero, they still had to make her boobs bigger (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/151611-Editorial-Lightning-Returns-to-Sexy-Why-SE-Risks-Destroying-Lightning-s-Strengths) and gave her a cat outfit (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/151334-Article-Lightning-gets-the-Miqo-te-treatment). Sorry SE, that's defeating the whole strong female protagonist without skanky fanservice thing. Those are all things we've personally reported on.


So yes there has been a change but it's more because of the games. But there are still large steps into making it the other way that they create them because strong females are the reason.

I think the biggest compliment you can say of how naughtydog portrayed Ellie in the original game is that if you google her name you won't find one image of her in either sexualized clothing or a sexual pose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ellie+last+of+us&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=uaPFU93RH8LTiwL8zYDIDA&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=566

[Mirage]

if you don't mind, can you spoilertag the huge image in your first post?

[Sephiroth]

Sephiroth I think it is time you drop the gay thing. This thread wasn't meant to imply rather or not Ellie was gay but instead you decided to focus in on it.

Now that is some hypocrisy. I stated that in a comment which was no reply to anyone specifically without even starting a debate and you began by commenting "lol ... (rest of the comment)". Then I gave you the proof and you still couldn't accept it. There was no way you would accept it and if anything you "focussed on it" because the debate was over already after the link.

Reported for trolling.

[tony12]

I don't think so much that characterizations of females have changed. They have improved in some cases but I believe that it's more of the styles of games have changed. There are more dark and gritty games now than before. Everything is getting a brown tint, cause brown means realistic? And a character like Rikku wouldn't fit in in those games.

Now the strides in female characterization has vastly improved. Take the bioware games for example, they are making strides in making playable, well constructed and not very skanky unless their character calls for it, females. David Gaider, Dragon Age's Senior Writer gave a great panel/conference regarding sex in video games at last years GDC (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/29/bioware-david-gaider-sex-in-video-game/). It addresses females and the sexualization of it and how that's just lame. He addresses the Game Developers as a whole in it. It's a great listen/read.

Anyway, it's an uphill battle to include female protagonists and will be for a while because it's breaking down the whole "games are for boys" stereotype that many developers still have problems with.

Check out our former Editor Raistlin's Sexism in Final Fantasy (http://home.eyesonff.com/content.php/2256-Final-Fantasy-Sexism-Part-I-Why-It-Matters) article series.

Because even FF, even after they made Lightning be the hero, they still had to make her boobs bigger (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/151611-Editorial-Lightning-Returns-to-Sexy-Why-SE-Risks-Destroying-Lightning-s-Strengths) and gave her a cat outfit (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/151334-Article-Lightning-gets-the-Miqo-te-treatment). Sorry SE, that's defeating the whole strong female protagonist without skanky fanservice thing. Those are all things we've personally reported on.


So yes there has been a change but it's more because of the games. But there are still large steps into making it the other way that they create them because strong females are the reason.

Thanks for the links Freya. Didn't know that this kind of thing was being discussed that much already.

[Shorty]

Sephiroth I think it is time you drop the gay thing. This thread wasn't meant to imply rather or not Ellie was gay but instead you decided to focus in on it.

Now that is some hypocrisy. I stated that in a comment which was no reply to anyone specifically without even starting a debate and you began by commenting "lol ... (rest of the comment)". Then I gave you the proof and you still couldn't accept it. There was no way you would accept it and if anything you "focussed on it" because the debate was over already after the link.

Reported for trolling.

It's not necessary to state that you're reporting someone in a thread.

Let's keep the discussion light, please. Disagreements don't equate to trolling.

[black orb]

>>> I think they have changed a bit.. In the 90`s and 2k girls like Tifa (giant breasts and skimpy outfits) were the trend. Right now.. Im not really sure, lately game designers have a thing on Girls wearing armors I think..:luca: