What if FF as a series ended?

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm not talking about the complete end of FF, think more of SE declaring XV as the final entry and future FF projects would either be them franchising out older entries, releasing spin-offs and ports/remakes, but no longer really planning on making a new numbered entry of the caliber of earlier entries and instead decide to expand older properties and release spin-offs, in other words, what they have kind of done the past thirteen years just no promise of a new numbered entry.

[VeloZer0]

I wouldn't bat an eye. For me they haven't made a game that went beyond moderately enjoyable since FF9, and by now I have kind of lost faith that the next one is going to be one I really enjoy.

[Pumpkin]

I would be sad

[maybee]

I wouldn't bat an eye.


Same here.

[Bubba]

I would be sad but not devastated.

It would be the equivalent of one of your favourite bands splitting up. Sad yes, but you've still got all their old records that you can listen to.

[Mo-Nercy]

I'd probably do one of those slow reassuring nods to myself and think "well, they had a good run".

And then replay everything.

[Loony BoB]

:cry:

Eyes on RPGs or Eyes on Gaming would become a serious possibility.

[Formalhaut]

I'd be pretty upset, I think. I really enjoy Final Fantasy, and everything attached to it, so I'd be left just replaying the previous entries.

[Ergroilnin]

I am not really that big of a fan of FFs that came after X so I wouldn't be like mad about it or something.

But at the same time I would be a little sad that a franchise that had/has so big part in my heart came to an end.

Anyway, it should either continue or end completely. I really think that SE is pretty bad with all it's spin offs and sequels. There are maybe three of those that don't suck. Rest of them either just suck or actually kind of ruin the story of the original.

[Jinx]

I wouldn't bat an eye.

[Karifean]

I would be sad

[chionos]

:cry:

Eyes on RPGs or Eyes on Gaming would become a serious possibility.

EoFF isn't about FF like it used to be anyway. It's more like Eyes on Everything in all but name already. Which is good. And losing the potential for new FF does not mean EoFF's purpose fails. Hell, half the regulars these days don't even play FF regularly, perhaps haven't played one in years. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but you've got to admit, FF just isn't what it used to be, and even (honest) FF fans like us know it.

It's not about one game or even two games not being up to par. It's about what is Square doing lately. What have they done in the last 5 years, the last 10 years, compared to what they accomplished in the years previous?

It's not even about effort. I think it's clear that they're trying. They're just failing. They don't have the right minds in charge right now, they've lost a lot of their true artists. FFXIII wasn't a 7. If it didn't have the name Final Fantasy, it would have at the very best a 5. And I personally think it's lower than that. Terrible game. Terrible series, and for anyone not interested in MMOs, that's all there's been for YEARS.

A tree can't abandon its roots, even to innovate. It can stretch its branches, it can bend, it can split in two. It can change colors, grow parasitic vines, it can hold tree houses and squirrel nests, it can have broken limbs and dead leaves and still be itself. But without its roots, without being able to sustain itself, it'll die, and that's what's happened to FF. They don't remember the roots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY91K4iEdQU). FFXIII was far enough from everything they'd done before it didn't deserve the name. Yes, the series was all about making a new game each time. That's doesn't mean, however, that anything they do is "innovative" just because it's new or different.

Square has lost its identity (as far as FF goes). Or rather, it's taken on a new one, and most of us don't like it. MAYBE they'll turn it around with FFXV, but I honestly don't think so.

I guess, for me anyway, as long as they keep putting games in these pseudo-modern settings, I'll be looking elsewhere to fill my gaming needs, and if all they're going to make is shiny, flashy "Final Fantasies" then the series is already dead to me. They've lost their grit, and that was half the beauty of the games prior to FFX. That's what sucked me into the series. And that's what kept me coming back, and that's gone.

tl;dr: I think it would be a mercy to let the series die in peace as things stand currently.

[Sephiroth]

Square has lost its identity (as far as FF goes). Or rather, it's taken on a new one, and most of us don't like it. MAYBE they'll turn it around with FFV, but I honestly don't think so.


I don't think so. Even today most people who hear "Square" think about Final Fantasy. Just because it evolves it does not mean it no longer has a trademark series.

[Ayen]

I'd be sad, then if FFXV wound up sucking I'd be pissed that's how the series ended, then I'd hope that Bravely Default would become their new staple, then I'd be sad again if that failed, then I'd hope for some more Tomb Raider, then I'd get over it. I haven't thoroughly enjoyed a Final Fantasy game since 2006 anyway.

[arenzi]

While I haven't really loved a FF game since X-2, I'd still be sad if the series ended. They're not as amazing as they used to be but they're still good games and either way it's something for me to look forward to.

[Mirage]

It would be slightly annoying, but I wouldn't dwell on it for too long. The world of gaming wouldn't change extremely much after all, considering how few new main-series games have been released lately. It'd be like going from 0.2 a year to 0 a year.

[Aulayna]

I'd get over it pretty quickly really. Quality Final Fantasy titles have been few and far between for the last near 15 years now. During that time TV shows have come and gone as have other games. Until a release date for XV is actually confirmed - the series is already pretty dead in my eyes, all these mobile spin-offs/remakes just feel like an anti-climatic swan song really.

Of course I'd be sad at first, just like I was sad when some of my favourite TV shows ended. But like good TV shows, some of the better FF games have little nuances you don't notice until years later. FF would probably become something of a distant friend, that you had fond memories of but drifted apart as you both got older.

If you'd asked me this back during those 6-8 years when FFVI - X came out almost like rapid fire, then I'd probably say I'd be upset. But these days FF titles take far too long to show up that I've usually lost interest until the pre-release marketting starts kicking in.

[Psychotic]

It already did ten years ago.
:cry:

Eyes on RPGs or Eyes on Gaming would become a serious possibility.No need for that. FF will retain nostalgia value. I suspect we wouldn't notice a huge difference in user registration.

[Colonel Angus]

For me, personally, the last FF game was XII. I never played the MMORPGs or the Lightning Trilogy. So, in a way, it is a thing of the past. Thankfully, I've got 13 games I can always fall back on when I want my FFFix.

[Uchu]

Lots of interesting replies here, especially considering the foundation of this site. But i agree with those that said it wouldn't be a big deal. It would just be 'one of those things'. There are so many great games to play that losing one series would not send the gaming world into chaos (:bigsmile: hehe, chaos... *clears throat* ).

:wcanoe: Anyway... I think FF would simply slowly fall into irrelevance as SE focused more and more on smart phone titles while choosing to butcher past characters and themes that its fan base used to love by continuously trying to force unnecessary spin-offs down our throats.

[DMKA]

I'd be incredibly depressed, and probably quit playing video games altogether.

[Loony BoB]

It already did ten years ago.
:cry:

Eyes on RPGs or Eyes on Gaming would become a serious possibility.No need for that. FF will retain nostalgia value. I suspect we wouldn't notice a huge difference in user registration.
It definitely would. EoFF gets more new members because of games like FFXIII and FFXIV than we do because of FFVII these days. Anyone who thinks that a forum based around an active video game series will be just as active if the series closed up shop is blinded to logic. And with your knowledge of what is popular on YouTube, I think you know exactly what draws people to the site.

Re: chionos - What I said above, but also will point out that while you might think EoFF survives because of Final Fantasy. I am quite confident that EoFF, over a few years, would become a mere shell of what it is right now should SE close up FF. The community is what keeps members sticking around, but it doesn't keep every member and we need a steady supply of newer members to keep activity going for when the older members want to come back to an active place. Seven of our top ten posters this month joined in the past four years.

There's also the fact that while new members can join because of old games, it's often because of the marketing of newer FF games that people remember the old FF games at all.

Thankfully I don't see FF dying anytime soon at all. SE are sensible - there is more reason for them to simply change the way they work on FF but keep the FF name than to abandon it altogether. Each game is new and each game is unique and innovative - there is no worry of running out of material in the world of RPGs. If one person runs out of good ideas, you replace them with another.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think you're missing one vital element of my thought experiment BoB, I only said the numbered series would end, not the FF Franchise which means SE would probably still continue to make FF games, just no more numbered entries, by that logic it probably wouldn't affect the forum as badly as you assume since people would still come here for new FF content we just wouldn't bother with this wait a decade for a new installment nonsense. Unless of course you are assuming such a move on SE's part would end the franchise in its entirety eventually.

Basically how important is the core franchise to you and to SE?

[Bolivar]

The OP answered its own question, in that, materially, things would not change all that much. Square just does not prioritize original entries in the main series anymore. I could see why, given if we went back to the annual schedule of FFVII-X, it wouldn't be long before Final Fantasies are numbered like Super Bowls. For a game series, such numbers can become tiring and redundant, so I commend Square for trying to find a place for the series in other areas.

It's sad to hear how cynical people are about the newer entries, but I guess it's always been fun to speak hyperbole on the internet. FFX is one of the most revered games of all time. XI is fondly remembered and XII is a cult classic. XIV has really got people talking is also a nice next-gen foothold for Square. XIII is the only questionable one but by no means is it a bad game. Its naysayers would be rendered hypocrites if we looked at their favorite games with the same high power microscopes they use to tear it a part. XV looks promising. The pace of the series has slowed down but by no means has its quality. If anything, its storytelling techniques and gameplay mechanics are far more sophisticated than even the greatest triumphs in any previous "golden age."

[Loony BoB]

Yeah, the only real issue is the development time, but you have to consider that fast development times these days are generally achieved by games that don't innovate or are rather short in gameplay/gametime by comparison. Still, I would prefer the games be churned out a bit faster - the speed of three very different games in XIII, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns shows that they can bring games out pretty quickly if they really want to. I know these games all used the same engine which is not a normal thing for numbered games, but perhaps a new engine shouldn't be needed every time a new FF comes out.

Wolf, you're right, I'd forgotten that you specified that the other games could continue as franchises of their own. I still feel that this would only work in the short term and eventually people would stop buying the games, or joining forums to discuss the series. I think original games are what has allowed Final Fantasy to outlast/outnumber any other major game series (bar the obvious sports games and whatnot... and Mario, should you consider him a franchise in his own right).

[Wolf Kanno]

The OP answered its own question, in that, materially, things would not change all that much. Square just does not prioritize original entries in the main series anymore. I could see why, given if we went back to the annual schedule of FFVII-X, it wouldn't be long before Final Fantasies are numbered like Super Bowls. For a game series, such numbers can become tiring and redundant, so I commend Square for trying to find a place for the series in other areas.

I don't necessarily agree that SE's slow churn of numbered entries is a direct result of not trying to overwhelm fans with high numbered sequels and more of a result of a disturbing internal issue that has become more and more public as the years went by. :p


It's sad to hear how cynical people are about the newer entries, but I guess it's always been fun to speak hyperbole on the internet. FFX is one of the most revered games of all time. XI is fondly remembered and XII is a cult classic. XIV has really got people talking is also a nice next-gen foothold for Square. XIII is the only questionable one but by no means is it a bad game. Its naysayers would be rendered hypocrites if we looked at their favorite games with the same high power microscopes they use to tear it a part. XV looks promising. The pace of the series has slowed down but by no means has its quality. If anything, its storytelling techniques and gameplay mechanics are far more sophisticated than even the greatest triumphs in any previous "golden age."

Someday Bolivar, you're going to come clean with us and reveal you actually work for SE in their online division who goes around trying to advertise on message boards pretending to be a "fan". The PS2 generation up to the current generation has been a very divisive 14 years for the franchise with each installment being a battleground. I can give you FFX being beloved and XII being a cult favorite but the online entries have both shared their controversy and the XIII Trilogy is definitely controversial among fans especially since many feel its partly to blame for XV's delay.

As for judging older games to the same standard as the newer ones, I would point out its a bit different trying to judge an artist by the works he did in the early part of his career against the works they did after years of more experience. Let's face it, XIII made some bad design choices and while I will concede that whether they ruin the experience for you is subjective, most people, even you, have publicly criticized the game for its choices. I wouldn't call it hyperbole as much as you being blind to the truth cause you can't face the idea the series has fallen on hard times.


Yeah, the only real issue is the development time, but you have to consider that fast development times these days are generally achieved by games that don't innovate or are rather short in gameplay/gametime by comparison. Still, I would prefer the games be churned out a bit faster - the speed of three very different games in XIII, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns shows that they can bring games out pretty quickly if they really want to. I know these games all used the same engine which is not a normal thing for numbered games, but perhaps a new engine shouldn't be needed every time a new FF comes out.

This has always been's SE's problem and Japanese devs in general, they don't like re-using game engines.


Wolf, you're right, I'd forgotten that you specified that the other games could continue as franchises of their own. I still feel that this would only work in the short term and eventually people would stop buying the games, or joining forums to discuss the series. I think original games are what has allowed Final Fantasy to outlast/outnumber any other major game series (bar the obvious sports games and whatnot... and Mario, should you consider him a franchise in his own right).

I agree.

[Loony BoB]

So basically we just need to convince SE to re-use game engines for multiple games per generation and to churn them out year-after-year. That way if people don't like one, it's okay because there is another one to look forward to. Similar to the PS1 generation, really. Alright guys let's put together a PowerPoint presentation and start learning Japanese.

[Bolivar]

Someday Bolivar, you're going to come clean with us and reveal you actually work for SE in their online division who goes around trying to advertise on message boards pretending to be a "fan". The PS2 generation up to the current generation has been a very divisive 14 years for the franchise with each installment being a battleground. I can give you FFX being beloved and XII being a cult favorite but the online entries have both shared their controversy and the XIII Trilogy is definitely controversial among fans especially since many feel its partly to blame for XV's delay.

I hope you're trolling because insisting I must be a SE employee suggests an inability to empathize with the perspectives of others, which is a sign of immaturity (as is insisting I'm "blind to the truth"). Are you honestly citing divisiveness as evidence of series decline? Do you remember some of the things you used to post about Final Fantasy VII and VIII? Those subforums were far more divisive in their heyday and make FFXIII's criticisms look like child's play.

And you know this (man).

Your analogy about art and individual experience is fallacious, which I'm going to take as evidence of a blind spot for you. Also, I criticize design choices in most games I like, so it's again illogical to take that as a sign of anything you're trying to prove.

[Uchu]

The OP answered its own question, in that, materially, things would not change all that much. Square just does not prioritize original entries in the main series anymore. I could see why, given if we went back to the annual schedule of FFVII-X, it wouldn't be long before Final Fantasies are numbered like Super Bowls. For a game series, such numbers can become tiring and redundant, so I commend Square for trying to find a place for the series in other areas.


It's sad to hear how cynical people are about the newer entries, but I guess it's always been fun to speak hyperbole on the internet. FFX is one of the most revered games of all time. XI is fondly remembered and XII is a cult classic. XIV has really got people talking is also a nice next-gen foothold for Square. XIII is the only questionable one but by no means is it a bad game. Its naysayers would be rendered hypocrites if we looked at their favorite games with the same high power microscopes they use to tear it a part. XV looks promising. The pace of the series has slowed down but by no means has its quality. If anything, its storytelling techniques and gameplay mechanics are far more sophisticated than even the greatest triumphs in any previous "golden age."


I agree. Not liking a story doesn't mean the game (or story) is bad in itself. I feel this is a mistake too many people make. Which is why at one point I asked why people dislike the laughing scene of FFX, because sometimes it seems people are hating on it as if they din't get that it's meant to be that cringe worthy.



So basically we just need to convince SE to re-use game engines for multiple games per generation and to churn them out year-after-year. That way if people don't like one, it's okay because there is another one to look forward to. Similar to the PS1 generation, really. Alright guys let's put together a PowerPoint presentation and start learning Japanese.


Fortunately, they are beginning to. They are also using 3rd party engines less reluctantly (not just SQ but Japan devs in general). It's baby steps, sure, but it's a start.


I also don't have a problem with the delivery times of the games. The trouble is the longer the development time, the more it costs and the more SE is reluctant to move on or admit mistakes. Now, I'm not looking at the sales figures for FFXIII (a game i did enjoy despite having some complaints about it), so maybe the sequels were justified by those numbers. But I would hazard a guess that they were more the result of putting too much time and money into the assets to not use them again.


I dunno, maybe thats okay to some degree, i mean, i did enjoy 13-2 (to the extent of grabbing that Platinum trophy) but even I lost interest in Lightning Returns and haven't played it. Maybe jaded is the term i'm looking for.


Oh, I seem to be rambling.


I see FF like a child, i'm not angry, just disappointed. DONE.

[Wolf Kanno]

I hope you're trolling because insisting I must be a SE employee suggests an inability to empathize with the perspectives of others, which is a sign of immaturity (as is insisting I'm "blind to the truth"). Are you honestly citing divisiveness as evidence of series decline? Do you remember some of the things you used to post about Final Fantasy VII and VIII? Those subforums were far more divisive in their heyday and make FFXIII's criticisms look like child's play.

And you know this (man).

Your analogy about art and individual experience is fallacious, which I'm going to take as evidence of a blind spot for you. Also, I criticize design choices in most games I like, so it's again illogical to take that as a sign of anything you're trying to prove.

I simply call you out because you're the first to defend SE and lately you've been whining around about how "it's not SE, it's the fans" which is pretty much the same hyperbole that Toriyama and Kitase gave when *gasps* the fanbase didn't completely rejoice about how wonderfully creative XIII was. When a game designer blames the fans first instead of taking a step back and maybe thinking that they had a misstep, it's a real bad sign.

Let me put this to you in terms you may understand, you're Vincent Valentine and Squenix is Lucretia, you are trapped in an abusive one-sided affair and instead of calling Lucretia out on their nonsense you're being overly defensive and taking their side convincing yourself that "you" or I guess "we the fans" are the problem instead of taking a step back from any emotional attachment from the situation and realizing that SE has some serious problems and maybe they need to be addressed if anyone is going to make this relationship work.

There is also nothing fallacious about my artist analogy, FFV (a game you claim to like) took one year to create, had a staff of maybe two dozen people and a modest budget. It was a solid game which you and I both agree on, was critically acclaimed for its time and is still hailed as one of the strong entries in the series franchise by both critics and fans. XIII took five years to develop, of which the entire gameplay concept was finalized only in the fifth year due to poor management making the development team basically waffle about as they dealt with silly internal politics like making the game a show piece for the new Crystal Engine which ballooned the development time. In five years the best they could come up with was a dumb down linear map system based on FFX and a dumb down Gambit system with the speed revved up to compensate for the lack of any real strategic thinking. They threw the rest of their resources into the story and graphics, the game had a development team twice the size of FFV and didn't bother doing any play testing until the game was almost ready for its initial release and largely ignored most of it. Now explain to me again how this comparison is so radically different considering one game was developed by six year veterans whose largest success at the time was FFIV and the other was developed by people who had a minimum of ten years and their names are attached to two of the most critically acclaimed entries in the franchise?

If you want to seriously sit here and dissect every FF entry with me so we can do a compare and contrast then by all means place your opening argument and let's get this show on the road but let's face it; it will go a few rounds, ultimately come to the same conclusion that all the games are flawed and liking them is subjective, you'll mention XIII's sales for why I should see XIII as being well recieved, I'll point out the sequels did terribly, we'll discuss metascore and both come to the conclusion the internet is a terrible place to get a valid opinion, I'll mention the general resentment the game gets across gaming sites and message boards, you'll say its due to the hyperbole of gaming critics and a vocal minority and then point out the sales of XIII and we'll start over again until we're both too tired to continue this petty argument. :wcanoe:

VIII is a divisive game and probably always will be but I bet you there are more VIII fans than there are XII or XIII fans. Fans have been complaining about the quality of the series for years but the backlash of XI, X-2, XII, and the XIII trilogy makes it more noticeable because its been getting bigger and unlike VIII, IX, XI, and X-2 it doesn't feel like fans are going to redeem the others in time. Partly because the fanbase is spread out thin along with the concept of what a proper FF should be. I'm not saying that fans are free of any blame in this situation but SE kind of caused the problem in the first place with their long production times and need to try to "push it to 11" technologically which has created a fanbase that possesses an unrealistic expectation.

It was easy back then to brush off a bad game when they had the next game coming out in a year or two but that era is over and I don't really feel the current generation of FF fans (PS2 Era) would even be able to take the series in stride like we did back in the day. Even if they did get out a bi-annual schedule, they may just as likely whine that the quality is bad because they don't take the proper time like they used to. As far as I'm concerned SE has created for themselves a "damn if you do, damn if you don't" situation and it will only be a matter of time before it reaches a head.

[chionos]

The thing is, there never was a bad FF till FFXIII. There were games that weren't liked as much. But the games were all good at something. I didn't/don't like FFVIII as much as any of the other games but I got that game the second it came out and played the shit out of it till I beat it, and have replayed it since then. I can't even get through the FFXIII series. I can't. It bores me to tears. It's supposed to be beautiful. It's not. It's flashy. It's high-def. And it's boring and bland and pointless. It has a pretense of beauty without the substance.

Think about FFXIII's place in the gaming landscape. Every single thing FFXIII does, some other contemporary game does better. If you took a FF virgin, and gave them FFXIII to play as their first FF, they'd probably not finish it in the first place, and whether they did or not, it would not convince them to play the rest of the series--quite the contrary--and afterward they'd just want to play some other game to get the taste of FFXIII out of their mouth. There are too many great games out there for anyone other than diehards to waste their time on a subpar game.

I'm a diehard fan. I've been a square fan longer than most. (I'm not a curmudgeon, either). I always had faith in SE. Until FFXIII. Until they stopped putting out Final Fantasies in a timely manner. Until they got sucked into the mobile market. Until they started buying other franchises and throwing money into those. Until they started making movies about games instead of just making games. Until they started making unnecessary sequels to the games that never needed a sequel. Until they forgot how to tell a mother.fucking.story. Until they forgot what fantasy means. What it meant to the fans. What it meant to them as artists.

I'm not saying I want Final Fantasy to end. I don't. At all. I want it to get better. I want them to fix what's gone wrong. The problem is, from a practical standpoint, I just don't think they're going to. I don't know that they can. And I hate to see suffering. Square is Old Yeller.

The sad thing is I'm going to gripe and bitch and complain, and I'll still buy FFXV. And FFXVI if it ever happens. Because I'm a fan, and I'm loyal. My Cincinnati Reds suck ass this year in baseball. But I cheer them on every night, even while hating on them with other Cinci fans. I think that's my fucking right as a long time supporter. I've given them a ton of money (FFXI alone=close to $2000), and until now I got games in the spectrum from good to great. I want all the games to be great. Some of them are just good, though, and I accept that. But now I'm waiting and waiting and waiting and then I throw money at them and they give me the steaming pile of shit that is FFXIII. I don't give a damn if I'm being subjective. I'm a fan, and they let me down. And the thing about subjectivity...when a bunch of people share the same opinion, things begin to skew toward objective truth. If the majority of people think something is true, they're either
A. Onto something.
B. Brainwashed
C. Mass-hallucinating
D. Sheep

I'm guessing, Bolivar, you'd say that in this case the answer is D. We're just sheep hating on Square because it's a popular thing to do right now, etc.

Thing is, I'm not a sheep. I've played FFs that even a lot of hardcores never touched (namely FFXI). I liked FFXII despite the many dissenting opinions against it. If I'm a sheep about anything, it's in my loyalty to Square.

This isn't a fanbase turning on the developers because they're whiny and butthurt, or because they're impatient and venting, or because everybody else is doing it. This is a fanbase--that, consequently, MADE THE COMPANY WHAT IT IS TODAY by supporting it financially--calling out said company on its ineptness. This is a fanbase who apparently care more about the integrity of the series than its developers do. Perhaps "integrity of the series" sounds a bit melodramatic, but I think it's poignant. Whatever else you want to say about FFXIII's qualities or flaws, I don't think anyone would try to argue that it's a piece of art. Other Final Fantasies were. I want that back.

[Pumpkin]

The main issue I have with SE lately is how long it takes to get the main numbered entries out. I don't actually have a problem with the games themselves. I don't think XIII was a bad game. I think it was a bad Final Fantasy game, because the series has produces some games that I fell in love with, and XIII didn't do that, but I don't think it was a bad game.

I've finished it more than once. There are so many games I've tried and turned off after a few hours. Or games that I played about halfway through and gave up because it was such a chore and I didn't like it. FFXIII meanwhile I have played and finished more than once. Heck sometimes I'm even in the mood for the paradigm system. That's not a bad game.

And even then, let's say I didn't like it at all. Well, I liked XII. And X. And X-2. And IX. And VIII. Am I really going to give up on the series that has made so many games that I absolutely adore because they made one whole game I don't like? No. I'm going to give XV a try. I'm excited about it! If I don't like XV? I'll give XVI a try. If I don't like that one, then I might think a little harder about buying the next one.

But yeah, personally, XIII is on the same wavelength as VII. Good game, bad FF game. Like I said, the main thing for me is having to wait foreeever for XV. I do find that pretty frustrating.

[Bright Shield]

I wouldn't bat an eye. For me they haven't made a game that went beyond moderately enjoyable since FF9, and by now I have kind of lost faith that the next one is going to be one I really enjoy.

Exactly. IX was the last great FF game if you ask me. After that game Square went down hill at a disturbing rated...

[Loony BoB]

The thing is, there never was a bad FF till FFXIII. There were games that weren't liked as much.
Oh man, dude, are you seeing what you're writing? xD I think there are a number of FFs that are worse than FFXIII. I know quite a bunch of people that will agree with me on this. You can't say there was never a bad FF til FFXIII. It just happened that for you, FFXIII is bad. Don't act as if there is some universal dislike for FFXIII because there really isn't.

Pretty much everything in your post I can argue against with an example of a fan who thinks the opposite of you. I have seen FF virgins play the game as their first FF and enjoy it. I know people who think it's a good game, I know people who think other FFs are bad games, I know other FF games have similar if not worse reviews/ratings. SE did the things that you say made you lose faith in games before FFXIII was released, yet you say you always had faith in SE until FFXIII.

Gonna have to quote myself from some way back...

Remember when FFVIII got lambasted by everyone and their uncle for being rubbish? Remember when FFX got the same treatment (by me, too, no less)? XII got a lot of criticism, too. Even FFVI fans are quick to lambast FFVII when given the opportunity. Modern gamers look back at games like FFII and FFIII with disbelief that they could be seen as good games.

Final Fantasy is arguably never outdone when it comes to reinventing itself. Square, Squaresoft, Square Enix... they innovate in every Final Fantasy game they create. It's always something new, it's never the same.

Gamers who enjoy one Final Fantasy game might not enjoy another Final Fantasy game. We have so many previous Final Fantasy games that at the time of FFXIII's release, you had fans of twelve very different games with different stories, different characters, different leveling systems, different battle systems, different minigames, different worlds. At the time of FFXIII's release, more than ever, the fans of these very different games were able to communicate with each other online. The world is huge, now. Everyone has their opinions. When FFXIII was released, the people all were hoping for a game more like the one they enjoyed most from the previous series.

What they got was Final Fantasy XIII. Like it or not, it was a different game. It had a different story, different characters, a different leveling system, a different battle system, different (if few) minigames, different worlds. Those who wanted FFVII got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFVI got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFX got FFXIII. It was a new game, and it has divided opinion just like the Final Fantasy games before it (VIII, X, XII, etc) - only now, more than ever, there are enough people online who could get together and rant about how it wasn't the game they wanted, and downgrade the rating to fit their rage at such an occurance. Final Fantasy XIII still got a decent rating compared to many games, though. Because it picked up new fans - FFXIII fans - along with those fans of previous FF's that were happy enough to see the game for what it was rather than for which previous FF it was not.

In the end, Square Enix released a Final Fantasy game.

With FFXIV, they did the same, but they buggered it up because it was buggy and laggy as hell. These are things that are actually inexcusable - FFXIII had no bugs whatosever that I've known about.

Still, Square Enix - in the case of both games - innovated. They tried new things. Success or failure, they did what Call of Duty, Uncharted, Far Cry, Starcraft and others did not. They didn't take what they knew already worked in previous games and create more of the same. They made something new. They started from scratch and worked their way up, even creating a new engine for both games. Like it or not, Square Enix will do what very few other games in this industry do and try to shake things up.

People criticise Square Enix, but these same people also criticise the industry for a lack of innovation. Perhaps they need to consider exactly what they want out of the industry. More of the same, or something new? If you want more of the same, it's out there in bulk. If you want something new in an AAA title, you have to look to the few developers out there that have the money and the balls to create such a thing. Those developers include Square Enix.

Do I trust Square Enix? Like Spooniest quite rightly pointed out, I don't have to trust them, it's not about trust. If they make a game I don't like, it doesn't mean I'm going to not trust them. I mean, if one of you lot were to like a movie I thought was crap, that doesn't mean I'm going to think that all movies you like are crap. Likewise, if you like a movie I think is amazing, I'll bet that there is a movie out there that you like that I don't. These things happen. It's a matter of opinion.

Again, this fuss would not have been as massive if there was another game coming out in a year or so, and Final Fantasy is not a series that will do what other series do: Give you the same old shit with improved graphics, over and over again. Final Fantasy is a series where you should expect something different each time, and FFXIII gave us something different.

As for FFXV... and I'm not saying it will be crap, but I am saying that you should start playing the game with a different perspective for better potential enjoyment. (http://davidodoherty.bandcamp.com/track/please-please-lower-your-expectations)

[Spooniest]

AHHHHHHH Reams of text! Reams and reams and reams of it!

*gets dizzy*

Ok, now that I've recovered, I'd definitely have to say that all good things come to an end, and Final Fantasy is no exception. Think of the game they would produce for it's grand finale!

I can't really think right now myself, but you think of it, for me, and get back to me, ok? :monster:

[Bolivar]

If you want to seriously sit here and dissect every FF entry with me so we can do a compare and contrast then by all means place your opening argument and let's get this show on the road


Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.

LOL, unfortunately, this just isn't the time or place (I'm also on my phone). All I'm saying is that while it wasn't life changing, I enjoyed XIII - it was pretty to look at, fun to play, and I thoroughly enjoyed the music and character chemistry. How can I call it anything but hyperbole when you start lecturing about internal Square politics, development hell, "push to 11" mandates and Vincent/Lucretia's abusive relationship? What does any of that have to do with XIII having fun combat and vibrant locations?

Chionos, if you really think FFXIII was a steaming pile of trout, then clearly you haven't been through the NES and 16-bit era where 1 in 8 games was literally unplayable yet somehow got through QA. There are vast logical chasms between a bad game and one that didn't do anything for you personally. If you really wanna go play FFII on the NES, be my guest, bro. Just don't blame me for calling certain vocal enclaves of the fanbase silly when they exaggerate their over-generalized complaints about FFXIII.

It wasn't a life changing game, it was a good game with a lot of great things going for it but I agree with you that I want that extra level of bliss that games like FFIX gave us. I guess I just don't qualify that as an existential crisis because a) that would be overly dramatic and b) I understand the difficulties Square, and Japan for that matter, have gone through.

[chionos]

You can't say there was never a bad FF til FFXIII. It just happened that for you, FFXIII is bad.

Can too: There never was a bad FF till FFXIII.


Don't act as if there is some universal dislike for FFXIII because there really isn't.

Didn't say (or imply) it was universal. It's more than just me though. More than any other game in the history of Final Fantasy.


I have seen FF virgins play the game as their first FF and enjoy it. I know people who think it's a good game, I know people who think other FFs are bad games, I know other FF games have similar if not worse reviews/ratings. SE did the things that you say made you lose faith in games before FFXIII was released, yet you say you always had faith in SE until FFXIII.

I've only seen the opposite. From my experience with real life people who have played the game, FFXIII is basically Square's version of "The Phantom Menace." That's a mix of new players and longtime Square fans, longtime Final Fantasy fans.



Gonna have to quote myself from some way back...

Remember when FFVIII got lambasted by everyone and their uncle for being rubbish? Remember when FFX got the same treatment (by me, too, no less)? XII got a lot of criticism, too. Even FFVI fans are quick to lambast FFVII when given the opportunity. Modern gamers look back at games like FFII and FFIII with disbelief that they could be seen as good games.

I'm a modern gamer, and I don't. I have perspective. I don't think anyone who defends FFXIII could possibly have the correct perspective. FFXIII has better graphics than FFII, so it's a better game, yeah? Perspective, people.

Also, graphics don't mean trout if you don't care about what you're looking at. Real life has even better graphics, but I want to play a game I can enjoy, I want to see things worth looking at, otherwise I'll just check out the HD graphics of the real world.

Every Final Fantasy has flaws. Not a one of them has been perfect. I know that. Nobody expects perfection.




Final Fantasy is arguably never outdone when it comes to reinventing itself. Square, Squaresoft, Square Enix... they innovate in every Final Fantasy game they create. It's always something new, it's never the same.

You do realize that change isn't always a good thing, right? That being an "innovation" implies jack trout about its quality. George Lucas "innovated" when he produced "The Phantom Menace." Sometimes innovations turns out to be a big ol' pile of trout. Not every change is good.



Gamers who enjoy one Final Fantasy game might not enjoy another Final Fantasy game. We have so many previous Final Fantasy games that at the time of FFXIII's release, you had fans of twelve very different games with different stories, different characters, different leveling systems, different battle systems, different minigames, different worlds. At the time of FFXIII's release, more than ever, the fans of these very different games were able to communicate with each other online. The world is huge, now. Everyone has their opinions. When FFXIII was released, the people all were hoping for a game more like the one they enjoyed most from the previous series.

Yes, yes, subjectivity, blah blah, different, different, change, innovation, I get it.

FFXIII has a horrible storytelling. And that not an opinion. No subjectivity there. FFXIII has a boring and convoluted story. And isn't that kind of the point of a Final Fantasy, to have a compelling story? It's implied in the name.



What they got was Final Fantasy XIII. Like it or not, it was a different game. It had a different story, different characters, a different leveling system, a different battle system, different (if few) minigames, different worlds. Those who wanted FFVII got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFVI got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFX got FFXIII. It was a new game, and it has divided opinion just like the Final Fantasy games before it (VIII, X, XII, etc) - only now, more than ever, there are enough people online who could get together and rant about how it wasn't the game they wanted, and downgrade the rating to fit their rage at such an occurance. Final Fantasy XIII still got a decent rating compared to many games, though. Because it picked up new fans - FFXIII fans - along with those fans of previous FF's that were happy enough to see the game for what it was rather than for which previous FF it was not.


There were enough people online for FFX and FFXII too, so that point is utterly invalid. And anyway, if there are more people online in general, there are more people to rate it up just as much as there are more people to rate it down.

So in the world of blind devotion to gaming companies, "different" is a synonym of "good"?



In the end, Square Enix released a Final Fantasy game.

With FFXIV, they did the same, but they buggered it up because it was buggy and laggy as hell. These are things that are actually inexcusable - FFXIII had no bugs whatosever that I've known about.

This has become too much about FFXIII. If you can successfully defend FFXIII, you successfully defend Square and all of Final Fantasy. The debacle of FFXIV's initial release just proves the point that Square is in a bad place. As you say, inexcusable. And this discussion isn't even really about bugs or glitches or anything like that. Not having bugs does not make a game good. Games should at default not have bugs. All games. No excuses.

And I would argue that it isn't actually a Final Fantasy game. Why should I accept that just because Square calls it that, that's what it is? Squeenix doesn't remember what Final Fantasy means. They don't. I do, though.



Still, Square Enix - in the case of both games - innovated. They tried new things. Success or failure, they did what Call of Duty, Uncharted, Far Cry, Starcraft and others did not. They didn't take what they knew already worked in previous games and create more of the same. They made something new. They started from scratch and worked their way up, even creating a new engine for both games. Like it or not, Square Enix will do what very few other games in this industry do and try to shake things up.


Bulltrout. If they really want to "shake things up," then stop slapping "Final Fantasy" on everything they put out. If there's no central identity to the series, then it's pointless as a series. I don't understand how so many people just don't get that. I mean, I really really don't.

Also, in the past when they "innovated" from game to game, there was a natural progression, some things changed some didn't. There was a centering identity. For the most part, it was something a fan would intuit. Just feel. But if I had the energy I could prove it statistically, prove that FFXIII is less Final Fantasy than anything that came before it, and therefore, in the context of talking about the series, the worst of them. I started this once before and never finished. I'll get back on it.



People criticise Square Enix, but these same people also criticise the industry for a lack of innovation. Perhaps they need to consider exactly what they want out of the industry. More of the same, or something new? If you want more of the same, it's out there in bulk. If you want something new in an AAA title, you have to look to the few developers out there that have the money and the balls to create such a thing. Those developers include Square Enix.


Both. Neither. I just want good games. FFXIII isn't. FFXV might be, but still looks like it has the issue of being a further departure. Continuing to slap the name "Final Fantasy" on games that share with the series what, a couple enemies? Some spell names? Summons? If I can get myself to care enough, I'm going to attempt to find 5 modern games that are more "Final Fantasy" than Final Fantasy XIII.



Do I trust Square Enix? Like Spooniest quite rightly pointed out, I don't have to trust them, it's not about trust. If they make a game I don't like, it doesn't mean I'm going to not trust them. I mean, if one of you lot were to like a movie I thought was crap, that doesn't mean I'm going to think that all movies you like are crap. Likewise, if you like a movie I think is amazing, I'll bet that there is a movie out there that you like that I don't. These things happen. It's a matter of opinion.

Yes I do. I have to trust them. I give them money. I give them time and energy and money, so yes, it is about trust. I give them those things in the expectation of getting a good game in return.



Again, this fuss would not have been as massive if there was another game coming out in a year or so, and Final Fantasy is not a series that will do what other series do: Give you the same old trout with improved graphics, over and over again. Final Fantasy is a series where you should expect something different each time, and FFXIII gave us something different.

False comparison. Nobody wants Final Fantasy: Modern Warfare V. Square has always "innovated" with the Final Fantasy series, yes. But in the past it innovated well. Not every change was a success, but the majority were.

And in some ways they did put out the same old trout with improved graphics. For so long we got our Shivas, Leviathans, Ifrits, Bahamuts all over again but improved with better graphics and new animations and so forth. Perhaps you've forgotten (or never experienced) what that was like, to anticipate those things. It was the mix of new and familiar that made Final Fantasy so awesome. FFXIII is almost entirely JUST NEW, no familiar, and most of the newness of it isn't all that great, especially relative to everything else that's out now.



As for FFXV... and I'm not saying it will be crap, but I am saying that you should start playing the game with a different perspective for better potential enjoyment. (http://davidodoherty.bandcamp.com/track/please-please-lower-your-expectations)

This isn't just about whether a game is good or not. There's two aspects to this "FF ending" idea:
1. Is Final Fantasy still quality?
2. Is Final Fantasy still Final Fantasy?

FFXIII is evidence (to me and a lot of other people) that the answer is no to both of those questions. What I can see of FFXV so far, I conclude (so far) that the answer to 2 is still no, but it's possible that we'll get back to 1 being yes again. If so, ultimately I wouldn't be as happy as if it were a true Final Fantasy, but a good game is a good game.



Chionos, if you really think FFXIII was a steaming pile of trout, then clearly you haven't been through the NES and 16-bit era where 1 in 8 games was literally unplayable yet somehow got through QA. There are vast logical chasms between a bad game and one that didn't do anything for you personally. If you really wanna go play FFII on the NES, be my guest, bro. Just don't blame me for calling certain vocal enclaves of the fanbase silly when they exaggerate their over-generalized complaints about FFXIII.

Au contraire mon frere. I've played every game in the series, and frequently replay all games, including nes and snes and gamecube titles. (including Mystic Quest). All very playable games. All enjoyable. FFXIII is the only FF I've ever truly had an issue with.

I'm not sure how the complaints are over-general, but it would take a book to lay out every single problem with FFXIII.



It wasn't a life changing game, it was a good game with a lot of great things going for it but I agree with you that I want that extra level of bliss that games like FFIX gave us. I guess I just don't qualify that as an existential crisis because a) that would be overly dramatic and b) I understand the difficulties Square, and Japan for that matter, have gone through.

I'm pretty sure me disliking a game and complaining about it in a forum devoted to the game doesn't qualify as an existential crisis. My life outside this thread's just fine. Thank you for your concern, though.

I understand their difficulties too. If they turn things around, great. I'm not rooting for their downfall. I'm just being honest about how I feel about them right now, in their current state.

[Bright Shield]

Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.

No, just no. VI is one of the most critically acclaimed RPGs of all time, and one of the most beloved by the FF fanbase. To even compare it to FF Tunnel XIII is a joke.

[Spooniest]

Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.

No, just no. VI is one of the most critically acclaimed RPGs of all time, and one of the most beloved by the FF fanbase. To even compare it to FF Tunnel XIII is a joke.

This whole thread has crossed the ridiculous line.

LUDICROUS SPEED...GO!!

[Wolf Kanno]

If you want to seriously sit here and dissect every FF entry with me so we can do a compare and contrast then by all means place your opening argument and let's get this show on the road


Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.
59098



LOL, unfortunately, this just isn't the time or place (I'm also on my phone). All I'm saying is that while it wasn't life changing, I enjoyed XIII - it was pretty to look at, fun to play, and I thoroughly enjoyed the music and character chemistry. How can I call it anything but hyperbole when you start lecturing about internal Square politics, development hell, "push to 11" mandates and Vincent/Lucretia's abusive relationship? What does any of that have to do with XIII having fun combat and vibrant locations?


The combat always felt hands off, the locations were static and lifeless because you were always stuck on invisible rails, the cast are shallow carbon copies of better characters and XIII basically stole most of its ideas from Persona 3 and then left it in the hand of a 7-year -old who thinks Michael Bay is the greatest director ever to make it into an FF. I don't mind stealing ideas from other games but for gods sakes, at least give it a good spin, and don't get me started on the pacing and lack of anything else...

Iknow you're big into linear gameplay and cinematic set pieces since you play so man FPS games but it just doesn't work in RPG design and I would hope playing Oblivion would teach you that.

I just feel that you and BoB were so hard up for FF goodness you were completely unprepared and thus traumatized by the experience that is XIII and are simply suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Please Bolivar, BoB, let us help you.

[Loony BoB]

I just feel that you and BoB were so hard up for FF goodness you were completely unprepared and thus traumatized by the experience that is XIII and are simply suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Please Bolivar, BoB, let us help you.
:lol:

Also a recent poll at EoFF had most people enjoying FFXIII's battle system. I do feel FFXIII had it's bad points, don't thing I'm blind to them, but I also really liked a lot of things about it and I know many others who feel similarly. I do feel that it was divisive, but the entire point of being divisive is that there are those that like it as well as those that dislike it. FFXIII fits into this 'divisive' thing pretty well. Still, I think FFII was a bad game and you probably don't, so... :shobon:

[Wolf Kanno]

I just feel that you and BoB were so hard up for FF goodness you were completely unprepared and thus traumatized by the experience that is XIII and are simply suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Please Bolivar, BoB, let us help you.
:lol:

Also a recent poll at EoFF had most people enjoying FFXIII's battle system. I do feel FFXIII had it's bad points, don't thing I'm blind to them, but I also really liked a lot of things about it and I know many others who feel similarly. I do feel that it was divisive, but the entire point of being divisive is that there are those that like it as well as those that dislike it. FFXIII fits into this 'divisive' thing pretty well. Still, I think FFII was a bad game and you probably don't, so... :shobon:

The thing I would point out is that do you feel your would say the same thing about FFII had you played it back in the day when it was new and had little to compare it too? I mean FFII is actually quite popular in Japan and while I like FFII, I had to grow to like it myself. Then again BoB, you come across as an overly agreeable person who tries to always stay positive on everything. Even when you dislike something you seem apologetic about it as opposed to someone like myself who has no qualms shooting down a dissenting opinion. :p

[Bolivar]

Iknow you're big into linear gameplay and cinematic set pieces since you play so man FPS games but it just doesn't work in RPG design and I would hope playing Oblivion would teach you that.


I would actually argue that linear design and set pieces worked wonders in FFs II, IV, and VII-X. You can clearly trace the origin of XIII's design philosophy by going back to VII and the ideal of creating a game where every locale is unique and different from the last, breaking away from the swappable dungeon palettes which RPGs (and most games) are notorious for. This doctrine became more relevant than ever in the PS3 era, where the game was competing with the tech mastery of Naughty Dog, Infinity Ward, and Sony Santa Monica. Believe it or not, I was actually very skeptical and disappointed in everything I heard about XIII leading up to and following its release. When I finally got to play it myself, I soon recognized what it was really trying to do. When I stopped comparing it to past FFs, switching focus to its contemporaries instead, it unlocked the ability for me to appreciate the streamlining of combat (you say hands off) and showcasing how Square was still a dominant graphics and audio player after all these years, something they prided themselves on since the NES days before the series even began. It capitalized on that sexy PS3 AAA tour de force of non-obtrusive gameplay, particle effects and DVS surround sound. Sure, the combat and customization pales compared to the Gambit system and Sphere Grid (respectively) and the environments don't have the interaction that made the FFVII philosophy work. The story also drags towards the end and the lack of mini games further damages the pacing. But those are small qualms to me when the game was a resounding success for the core principles it sought to adhere to. I'm playing The Last of Us right now and it's a masterpiece but it's no less linear than FFXIII was. The dirty secret is, outside of world map illusions and endgame content, neither were most of the FF games.

I see you're starting to go into specific criticisms and again, I doubt your favorite games would last long if we started questioning what they borrowed from other tales, how well they pulled it off, or how shallow their characters really are. And therein lies the scariest dirty little secret of them all: XIII couldn't possibly have been as painful as you pretend it was. You just can't admit it because some of us remember how furious you were before they had announced little outside of the title logo.

I can show you the receipts.

[Psychotic]

You can't whitewash the failure of FFXIII to live up to the Final Fantasy name. You can call it "divisive", I call it a critical failure that has contributed heavily to Final Fantasy no longer being the #1 AAA gaming brand that it was in the previous console eras. Essentially Daniel, in a metaphor you can understand, Final Fantasy is Man United from when Fergie took over. A little bit unsure at first, will this work? Won't it? But you know what? It smurfing did. Took off. Time and time again it was reinvented in different eras and time and time again the cream rose to the crop. Final Fantasy XIII is the David Moyes era. Languishing in midtable, its turgid and stale format has been surpassed by many gaming franchises and series. "We're still relevant!" No. No you're not. You have to earn it back.

"I like it and I know some other people who like it, look at this example of people on the forums liking it" doesn't change a damn thing. The people who don't like it aren't even going to sign up to EoFF - EoFF isn't an unbiased sample, and that there is still so much negativity towards it here speaks volumes. The general gaming public have shunned it and wouldn't touch EoFF or other FF games with a bargepole because of it. It has the lowest GameRankings and Metacritic score for any new Final Fantasy title. You have to go all the way back to FFIII to find one with a lower metacritic score, and that was a remake of a 20 year old game. When has a Final Fantasy game director had to come out and defend the game against criticism? When has the president of Square-Enix responded to negative reviews of a Final Fantasy game? It's unprecedented.

No Final Fantasy game has ever been so "divisive" and being divisive is not something to aspire to in the first place.

[Spooniest]

No Final Fantasy game has ever been so "divisive" and being divisive is not something to aspire to in the first place.

What was that first law of media again? "Give the people what they want?"

[Wolf Kanno]

I would actually argue that linear design and set pieces worked wonders in FFs II, IV, and VII-X. You can clearly trace the origin of XIII's design philosophy by going back to VII and the ideal of creating a game where every locale is unique and different from the last, breaking away from the swappable dungeon palettes which RPGs (and most games) are notorious for.

I love when your inner VII Fanboy comes out and you try to spiel you BS revisionist history so you can try to attribute design elements to VII that really deserve to be given to other games. Square was already exploring the idea of making locations and settings different from each other long before VII with games like Secret of Mana trying to give each location a different flavor and geographical feel, Live A Live not only creating visually different scenarios for each character but even different gameplay from other genres, and CT itself also did its best to make each time period visually unique from each other to break away from overused tile sets, even then I would argue the artistry that went into the tile sets were still impressive and showed up in FF all the way back to the NES days to try to move beyond everything looking the same.


This doctrine became more relevant than ever in the PS3 era, where the game was competing with the tech mastery of Naughty Dog, Infinity Ward, and Sony Santa Monica.

You know what they all have in common except XIII? They all make fun games that fans want sequels to. :monster:


Believe it or not, I was actually very skeptical and disappointed in everything I heard about XIII leading up to and following its release.

You certainly kept it to yourself if you did, as my memory recalls you defending the game most of the time.


When I finally got to play it myself, I soon recognized what it was really trying to do. When I stopped comparing it to past FFs, switching focus to its contemporaries instead, it unlocked the ability for me to appreciate the streamlining of combat (you say hands off) and showcasing how Square was still a dominant graphics and audio player after all these years, something they prided themselves on since the NES days before the series even began. It capitalized on that sexy PS3 AAA tour de force of non-obtrusive gameplay, particle effects and DVS surround sound.

Sure, the combat and customization pales compared to the Gambit system and Sphere Grid (respectively) and the environments don't have the interaction that made the FFVII philosophy work. The story also drags towards the end and the lack of mini games further damages the pacing. But those are small qualms to me when the game was a resounding success for the core principles it sought to adhere to. I'm playing The Last of Us right now and it's a masterpiece but it's no less linear than FFXIII was.

So basically you're saying that XIII is a poorly developed action game trapped in a JRPG body and needs a "genre change" that it finally received after two sequels? So its Transgenre ( I apologize for any actual transgender members and mean no offense but its a good analogy for his statement) and I'm a hateful person for trying to hold it to the standards of the genre I was told it was?

Honestly I don't even know why SE needs to show off graphics and audio, many developers have proven they can build fun games without resorting to blowing all their time and budget on one of the more shallow elements of the gaming experience.

If you really want to compare this game to a true contemporary, instead of grasping at straws by genre hopping, let's compare it to a highly acclaimed JRPG like Xenoblade. Xenoblade also has you control one character while A.I. does the rest but it also allowed for all the characters to be used by switching between them in battle or using special group combo attacks, and I controlled the movement of the characters which was important for the 3D battle system where attack abilities alter depending on orientation. The normal attacks are automated but special attacks are controlled by me, like the Gambit System Xenoblade made the wise decision to only automate tedious tasks, not remove the player from the experience. In XIII, your a platoon leader at best, in Xenoblade (and FFXII) you can be the General, the platoon, leader or even the foot soldier, switching the level of player control based on the challenge or when you're doing the easy mob battle.

The areas of Xenoblade are linear, in that like mid-to-late 90s JRPGs, you can't really sequence break the order of events like you can in a true open world game like the Elder Scrolls series but each area is smurfing huge with so many elements to explore, optional challenges, and a gameplay achievement system that rewards the players for exploring or achieving silly goals. The environments can be interacted with and they don't feel static because if you can see, it, 9 out of 10 times you can reach it. The third area of the game is larger than the main area of Pulse in XIII, THE THIRD smurfING AREA, IN A GAME ON A SYSTEM THAT IS INFERIOR TO THE PS3, IS AS LARGE AND VISUALLY STUNNING AS PULSE. Later areas are just as large or even larger, you have linear objectives but a sandbox arena to play in making Xenoblade also on equal footing with other sandbox games like GTA.

The game doesn't hold the player back to explore and play around its visual landscapes. Cocoon is an old stuffy museum where you can look but cannot touch, Xenoblade is like a modern museum that recognizes you need to engage the patrons to help them learn by letting them interact with what you're selling. In terms of being a game, Xenoblade is just better, hell in terms of being a story Xenoblade is better but that's because it actually has some legitimate surprises even if most of them are revealed in the game's 11th hour and the final stretch of the plot has world changing plot twist fatigue. XIII is a game that deals with a theme of death and overcoming destiny by largely not addressing one and instead focusing on the party's petty problems (though some are legit) and deals with the other by having a literal Deus ex Machina fulfill it. Xenoblade deals with ethnic fighting, environmentalism, historical racism, genocide, and fighting against fate in a the most creative way imaginable by actually incorporating it into a gameplay feature. This is the Xeno team so you know they didn't half ass any of these concepts.

It has towns you can explore and interact with, townspeople who you actually get to know and have names and back stories you can slowly uncover by doing side missions for them which then unlocks new townspeople and missions, even ones from other towns. It all plays into the games world theme of interconnection. The Bionis makes sense as a fantasy world, as a concept and its world is very interconnected. Cocoon is mostly themed maps which you so proudly touted but they don't really make much sense on how they are connected nor does the game feel its important to make them important to the characters, the plot, or the player. You could switch most of the locations in the early chapters and it wouldn't change the plot much because that's how relevant they are. Pulse is a large em,pty mass of repetitive side content, lots of mystery but no narrative to tie it all together and it doesn't bring any new perspective to the story you go there cause the game mentioned it exist but it serves no narrative purpose, Pulse is practically a giant sidequest for what it brings to the story. The Mechonis? Mothersmurfing Holy Grail of plot twists, epic battles, tricky puzzles, and full on emotional roller-coaster ride from beginning to end. XIII tried to change the JRPG by just cutting all the content that makes it a JRPG instead of really addressing its problems, Xenoblade actually tries to address the problems and found a happy compromise by simply making the tedious aspects of the game more user-friendly.

Did I mention both games had the same amount of development time (five years) and Xenoblade shows it, XIII can try to play with the western AAA titles but it lost the JRPG fight and frankly it's underwhelming compared to The Last of Us, Uncharted and other Western affair. By trying to appeal to the West it lost a lot of its potential fans.


The dirty secret is, outside of world map illusions and endgame content, neither were most of the FF games.
Not true, you can sequence break at various points in the NES titles, FFIII and the SNES entries gave you vehicles that opened up the world with side content to explore and had new worlds to explore opening up the world early to explore and then changing the landscape to create a whole new world to explore of which VI's world map is pretty open ended. Even the PS1 generations pulled this though starting with VII more lengths were made to cut off the player from fully exploring the world until the writers wanted you to as cinematic took more prominence, X began the awful practive of linear maps and small world design which was sadly used in games like Xenosaga and Suikoden but that trend began to end thanks to DQVIII and XII introducing a more realistic seamless world. XIII is a dinosaur that took the idea from FFX whereas Xenoblade took its roots from DQVIII and FFXII and that's partly why it feels like a real evolution of the genre as opposed to XIII that was just striving to be accepted by its western gaming peers despite no one really giving a smurf.



I see you're starting to go into specific criticisms and again, I doubt your favorite games would last long if we started questioning what they borrowed from other tales, how well they pulled it off, or how shallow their characters really are.

Possibly, no game is perfect and I believe in the old saying, and I am paraphrasing, that "there is always someone out there better than you" . Yet I am confident in a battle against contemporaries many of my fave games would come out on top but maybe that's simply because I'm confident I can make the better argument as opposed to any real objective truths. :cool:


And therein lies the scariest dirty little secret of them all: XIII couldn't possibly have been as painful as you pretend it was. You just can't admit it because some of us remember how furious you were before they had announced little outside of the title logo.

Why yes Bolivar, I am obviously a closet XIII fanboy because in the past, before I knew anything about the game and actually played it, I wanted to know more to get excited cause I am a Final Fantasy fan, made obvious cause I frequent a FF message board and talk about it. I am so grateful you steel trap like intellect was able to uncover this mystery for all of us.


I can show you the receipts.

You're so adorable when you try to troll me. :love:

This is all I'm thinking when we spar.

:love: Bolivar X Wolf Kanno = Best Couple Winter Ciddies 2014! :love:

[Venom65437]

I haven't read this whole thing but I don't think I'd even care anymore. The last FF game that was truly enjoyable for me was X and everything after that was mediocre for me. XIII has really killed it for me. It was so terrible. I don't have a PS4 and FF XV sure isn't going to make me buy one. I've lost all faith in SE to make a FF game anymore.

Besides the best FF game in at least 10 years is Bravely Default...

[fat_moogle]

I'd be disappointed if Final Fantasy were to end. Of course it's inevitable that one day it will, but I hope not for a long while yet. From the moment I first played FFVII on PlayStation I was hooked, who knew that 17 years later I'd be waiting for XV on PS4. Final Fantasy has come a long since the SNES days and I'd like to see it continue for as long as possible. Not everyone hated FFXIII but I think the fact that it spawned two unnecessary sequels soured peoples tastes even further. Personally I still look forward to FFXV but SE are starting to take the piss a bit.

[Loony BoB]

No Final Fantasy game has ever been so "divisive" and being divisive is not something to aspire to in the first place.
I didn't say it is something to aspire to, but I disagree 100% that it has never been so divisive. It has. The difference between then and now is the length of time since there has been a single player release. People moved on from the other games because new ones came out.

VIII wasn't as divisive, but it was divisive. IX wasn't as divisive, but it was divisive. X, XI, XII and XIV were all as divisive as XIII based on my experiences of public reaction at the time the game was released and being played. X & XI in particular. Perhaps XII too. Actually XIV was not so divisive because almost everyone hated it. xD But don't you guys remember the initial reaction to these games when they were out? I definitely remember.

EDIT: For anyone who disagrees that this is just a rehash of things we've been through before, check out this thread (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/46465-Do-you-think-the-end-of-the-Final-Fantasy-series-is-near) where the likes of VIII, X, XI and XII are dissected with some saying the series is going down the crapper. 2004-2013, nothing has changed but the game people pick on. ;)

[Ayen]

if they do run out of ideas, then they'll just probably make sequels to all of the ff's until they get a new idea

*looks at all the sequels that's been created recently*

*snorts*

[DMKA]

So basically we just need to convince SE to re-use game engines for multiple games per generation and to churn them out year-after-year. That way if people don't like one, it's okay because there is another one to look forward to.
Didn't they say they were going to do that around the time FFXIII-2 was being made? (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114322-Square-Enix-Wants-a-New-Final-Fantasy-Every-Year)

So much for that idea.

[Bolivar]

The third area of the game is larger than the main area of Pulse in XIII, THE THIRD smurfING AREA, IN A GAME ON A SYSTEM THAT IS INFERIOR TO THE PS3, IS AS LARGE AND VISUALLY STUNNING AS PULSE.

:lol:

There it is!

Anyway, I've gotten all I need to out of this thread. Sorry you guys didn't like XIII as much as I did but feel free to keep making neurotic arguments about it, though :thumbsup:

[Aulayna]

Wait...


But yeah, personally, XIII is on the same wavelength as VII. Good game, bad FF game.

http://media1.giphy.com/media/12luQDyqvum5l6/200_s.gif

[Pumpkin]

I didn't think my feelings on VII were a secret :P

[Bright Shield]

Bob, every game ever made has tons of detractors. FFXIII is widely considered to be the weakest FF by the majority of fans and critics though. It is easily the most divisive game in the entire franchise.

[Wolf Kanno]

EDIT: For anyone who disagrees that this is just a rehash of things we've been through before, check out this thread (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/46465-Do-you-think-the-end-of-the-Final-Fantasy-series-is-near) where the likes of VIII, X, XI and XII are dissected with some saying the series is going down the crapper. 2004-2013, nothing has changed but the game people pick on. ;)

Actually BoB, the thread does show a definite shift from this one. Honestly with the exception of all the FFX/X-2 bashing (man I should have been on the forums back then :( ) coming mostly from one guy, the whole thread is utterly positive about FF and people like "I hope they go on forever! I love FF" whereas this thread is kind of dripping in utter apathy for the franchise. The shift in tone I feel shows a more underlying issue concerning the franchise than either you or Bolivar are willing to accept.

[The Man]

Wow, a lot of people on the forum were borderline illiterate back then. I'm amazed I even posted. Then again this was in the days before Wikipedia so I guess the people who made the forum worthwhile really made it worthwhile.

Anyway, FFXIII may have disappointed people to an unprecedented degree, but FF probably isn't going anywhere.

[chionos]

No Final Fantasy game has ever been so "divisive" and being divisive is not something to aspire to in the first place.
I didn't say it is something to aspire to, but I disagree 100% that it has never been so divisive. It has. The difference between then and now is the length of time since there has been a single player release. People moved on from the other games because new ones came out.

VIII wasn't as divisive, but it was divisive. IX wasn't as divisive, but it was divisive. X, XI, XII and XIV were all as divisive as XIII based on my experiences of public reaction at the time the game was released and being played. X & XI in particular. Perhaps XII too. Actually XIV was not so divisive because almost everyone hated it. xD But don't you guys remember the initial reaction to these games when they were out? I definitely remember.

EDIT: For anyone who disagrees that this is just a rehash of things we've been through before, check out this thread (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/46465-Do-you-think-the-end-of-the-Final-Fantasy-series-is-near) where the likes of VIII, X, XI and XII are dissected with some saying the series is going down the crapper. 2004-2013, nothing has changed but the game people pick on. ;)

I see what you're saying, and that thread was...enlightening. Lol, especially me bitching like an old man about all the "kids" worrying about FF's doom. Oops.


The only thing that's changed, though, is that now there's a game that actually sucks. One of the main gripes about FFX was its linearity. Things picked back up with FFXII because it compromised between linearity and openness. It gave an illusion of openness at the very least. FFXI was super open and FFXIV too. The game we're griping about has changed because whatever caused small worries or small gripes with FFX were magnified a hundredfold in FFXIII and have become legitimate issues. If FFXIII had existed in 2004, nobody would have been griping about FFX. And that's our most recent Final Fantasy. Add in the fact that so many other gaming companies have stepped up and made amazing games and amazing series, that other companies are innovating and listening to their fan base, that other companies have embraced transparency, and you see that Final Fantasy is in danger. I'm not saying it's at the critical point yet or anything, but if nothing extremely positive happens within the next couple years (for instance if FFXV bombs), I could see Square dropping the FF franchise, at least as far as numbered entries go.

[Loony BoB]

I see what you're saying, and that thread was...enlightening. Lol, especially me bitching like an old man about all the "kids" worrying about FF's doom. Oops.

[spoiler=redundancy]
The only thing that's changed, though, is that now there's a game that actually sucks.
100% subjective. Back then, people were saying that there were games that actually sucked. Now people are saying it again about another game. I do not thing FFXIII actually sucked. I know a lot of people who also disagree that FFXIII actually sucked.

WK: You must have read a different thread than I did because I saw people saying they disliked all kinds of games and it was certainly more than one person who said they didn't like FFX. I mean, really, why would you say only one person was dissing FFX and then go on to say that you wish that you were around at that point? You know full well that FFX got lambasted by a large number of fans at it's release, surely? Because it was. I was one of them. :p

It's all opinion. Every new game brings in a new kind of fan, a fan of a different kind of game, because every game is a different kind of game in some way. Every time this happens, the amount of diversity amongst FF fans increases. That means every time a new game is made, there will be a more diverse group of fans awaiting it. It will only suit some of these fans, due to the diversity of fans. The others will not like the game. The long wait between games means that the negative opinions will often be exaggerated because they waited so long for a game they don't enjoy. This will mean that you end up with a situation like that of FFXIII's reaction. You guys can rag on FFXIII all you like but if you stop and think about it, you know that what I'm saying makes sense. Logic's a bitch like that. For all I know, FFXV will be awful to me and wonderful to you guys. If that happens, perhaps my long wait will mean that I will feel an exaggerated annoyance at it, and exaggerate it's negative points, forgetting it's positive points (or dismissing them as negative out of spite) and you guys will consider me weird because you feel it's a good game. Hey, this is what happened in FFX with me, so it's definitely possible. But yeah, in the end, one "bad" game is not justification to denounce a series, it's just the time between that is exaggerating your negative opinions. Lambast the time, not the series. LOOK INTO YOUR HEARTS, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE. ;)

[The Man]

Loony BoB really making a pull for that "Biggest Final Fantasy Fangirl" Ciddie. :monster:

[Loony BoB]

What, by pointing out that I dislike some FF games? :p Psh. Many people have enjoyed FFXIII, some people just can't accept this and like to have a moan. To be fair, though, I did the same with FFX - although I don't think I ever felt the series was going to die because of it.

[Bright Shield]

But yeah, in the end, one "bad" game is not justification to denounce a series

I haven't loved a FF game since IX.

The FFVII compilation was pure rubbish, as was the XIII Saga. It wasn't just XIII itself Bob. The two sequels were horrid, as was anything related to FFVII.

It's not getting any better either.

XV looks like an action game to me.

I feel that Square is moving in the wrong direction. XV should be less Devil May Cry, and more Bravely Default...

[Loony BoB]

But yeah, in the end, one "bad" game is not justification to denounce a series

I haven't loved a FF game since IX.

The FFVII compilation was pure rubbish, as was the XIII Saga. It wasn't just XIII itself Bob. The two sequels were horrid, as was anything related to FFVII.

It's not getting any better either.

XV looks like an action game to me.

I feel that Square is moving in the wrong direction. XV should be less Devil May Cry, and more Bravely Default...
Sadly I think if you haven't liked X, XI, XII, XIII or XIV and don't like the look of XV... I think you have much more reason to feel the way you feel than those who simply dislike FFXIII. Sorry you feel that way, but I guess in your personal case, FF may just not be what it was. :( Sucks to hear you feel that way, though. I mean, wait, when you say you haven't loved one, have you liked one?

[The Man]

People didn't just dislike XIII, BoB. They also disliked its sequels and the Compilation of VII and the original release of FFXIV. I haven't played any of these so I can't evaluate for myself if they were justified in doing so, but regardless, people are basing this opinion on a lot more than just one game.

Personally, I haven't even felt interested in playing any of the games Square Enix have released in the series since FFXII. It used to be that the announcement of a new Final Fantasy game was something I looked forward to, but these days I have so little faith that the company will produce something I enjoy that I can't justify spending my money on it. A hallway simulator, sequels to a hallway simulator and sequels/prequels to a game that I felt needed neither just don't pique my interest.

And I still haven't played XII either, though that's mostly because I don't spend enough time gaming these days to justify picking up a game that will undoubtedly take me at least 100 hours to finish.

[Loony BoB]

...you have no faith in the company but haven't played any of the games they have released? Uhm. ._. What?

I would take people a lot more seriously about their dislike of FFXIII if they weren't just going "OMG EVERYTHING IS BAD NOT ONE THING IS GOOD IT'S ALL BAD" when that is on par with me when FFX got released. With retrospect I've been able to concede that it has it's good points. People who say "EVERYTHING SUCKS ABOUT THIS GAME" are not worth taking seriously, and it's mostly just a vocal few at EoFF that do this - well, of those that have actually played the games.

Crisis Core is almost universally liked, FFXIII-2 got excellent reviews despite it's awful ending. Lightning Returns had it's up and downs, but it showed that SE is certainly not running out of ideas (as did FFXIII-2). FFXIV has been revived and is now winning awards and getting touted as one of the greatest comebacks in gaming history. The series is so far from bad. It's just bad in the eyes of some people, and they happen to get pretty angsty and vocal about it because they loved the FFI-VI days more than the VII-XIII days. And if that's their bag, so be it, but I'm a little tired of the repeated claim that few people liked FFXIII when actually that's entirely untrue and some people just refuse to admit that actually, quite a lot of people liked it.

[The Man]

I've seen gameplay videos and read reviews. Nothing the company has done for quite some time has interested me, except Bravely Default. But I lack a 3DS, so I haven't played that either.

XIII-2 might have been a very good game, but the problem is, to properly understand it, you'll have to have played XIII, and that's an experience that a lot of people simply have no desire to go through.

Crisis Core seems to have been the only part of the Compilation that wasn't universally hated, but even then, it hasn't gotten anywhere near as glowing reviews as the games from Square's heyday. The general consensus seems to be "It's a passable game, but nowhere near as good as the original, and Genesis is a terrible character". And since the original didn't bowl me over that much in the first place, I don't really see any need to play a prequel.

I'm well aware that the relaunch of XIV has been quite successful, but the fact that Square Enix botched the initial launch as badly as they did does not inspire confidence that their future products will be good. We can't expect that they'll have the opportunity to revamp their future games as they did XIV.

I've been a fan of the series since before X came out and I haven't seen any game in the series be as widely reviled as XIII. Yes, it still has its defenders, but there are nowhere near as many of them as there are for any other games in the series (at least since maybe II).

[Loony BoB]

I dunno, XII doesn't have as many defenders as you'd think. EoFF has an above average number of FFXII fans and even then it's not a huge number. I think you might be surprised if you got all the FF Fans together. It'd be interesting to get a 'census' of FF fans, asking them which games they had played and which of those games they liked. I think the difference is that most people who like the game don't spend their time going around defending it, they just sit happy in knowing they liked it, and don't care about what XIII haters say.

Obviously I care to defend, but that's just me. :shobon:

[Psychotic]

See again, your problem is you're viewing it as "What FF fans think". That is a totally biased sample. Even if there are FF fans that don't like FFXIII and are quite vociferous about it, the average FF player will have a higher view of FFXIII than an average gamer will. FF, in order to survive, needs to acquire new fans. Before you say it, yes, maintaining the existing fans - though I would argue they have failed to do this too but whatever - is important but it's not a viable strategy for survival. People grow up, get older, have family responsibilities, stop having time for gaming. Eventually you'll lose all those fans. Indeed, look at EoFF - we lose members as people grow up and have less time.

Outside of FF fans, your average gamer has nothing but contempt for FFXIII. The same ones that might say FFVII or FFX was a great game.

[Loony BoB]

Actually I've spent this morning looking up what people who played FFXIII as their first FF thought about FFXIII, and the results are... pretty good. :shobon: I also looked up what reddit people thought of FFXIII (reddit people are the young kids, right?) and the results aren't nearly as bad as what you see at EoFF.

[metagloria]

Just going to poke my head in to say...

XIV rules.
XIII was fine. Not great, but fine.
XIII-2 and Lightning Returns were even better. Heck, they were even a little... *gasp*... innovative.
Bravely Default has proven that somebody at Square still knows how to make a good "classic" JRPG.

I'm not throwing the series down the toilet yet. I think XV looks like a fun trip, and I'm praying that XVI is the next XII, combining some of the XII, XIV, and BD teams to make an ultimate next-gen open-world job-system-based sidequest-heavy FF.

[deepdoop]

I'd be sad because a world without Final Fantasy would seem weird to me, but I'm a more casual FF fan these days anyway. I've been playing since the first one, but I stick mostly to the core, numbered games in the franchise and don't spend a lot of time with sequels, prequels and spin-offs.

It would suck partially because, love it or hate it, Square does try different things with each new entry in the main series. I don't think they get enough credit for that these days because there seems to be a hate for Square at this point.

When I think about it though, I haven't felt the magic for a Final Fantasy since 10. I didn't play 11, hated 12, didn't like 13, enjoyed 14 (as an MMO it's great, I'm still not entirely sold on FF as an MMO though), and 15 is the first entry in years where I've been excited... because I am hyping myself up. I want to give Final Fantasy a real go again.

So yeah, I'd be said. The series was important in my life and I still have respect for it.

[chionos]

But yeah, in the end, one "bad" game is not justification to denounce a series, it's just the time between that is exaggerating your negative opinions. Lambast the time, not the series. LOOK INTO YOUR HEARTS, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE. ;)

"it's just"

You're dismissing a very significant gripe as if it's nothing. A company taking a long time to make something that turns out to be horrible is a lot worse than a company that makes the same crap in a lot less time. You can still convince yourself to have faith that if the company that took too little time just spent some more time on the next thing, it could be better, especially if they've done it before. It's not like I want it to be this way.

It's not like I just hate on games for no reason at all. I've supported Square for as long as some EoFF members have been alive. I've introduced my fair share of people to the Final Fantasy series. I've given them my money time and again (and will in the future). Furthermore, I have extremely eclectic tastes, and can enjoy and even love almost anything. I'm not going to dig into the game's flaws again because BoB is utterly blind to them, but suffice it to say, I tried, I wanted to like the game, I tried to make myself, I looked for anything I could to justify all of its inadequacies and flaws, but I couldn't. I'm not just a hater. It's legitimately the worst FF. It has the worst characters and the worst writing. The end.

And it's not like the FFXIII hate is the only issue, either. SE managed to turn FFXIV around, but the initial blunder is still cause for a little bit of concern. I don't think I need to reiterate the Fabula Nova Crystallis mess, the FFXV frustrations, the rumors of internal strife, the lack of transparency. For instance, when, if ever, are we going to hear about what the deal is with Yatsui? Does his departure mean even more delays? Perhaps not, but Square does NOTHING to dispel rumors or to keep its fan base happy. That was annoying but not as much of an issue back in the day when they developed games in a timely manner. Now that they don't (because they're too busy putting out--mainly--unnecessary sequels), they're going to have to learn how to be more vocal, more transparent, or they're going to alienate a lot of their fans and they're going to lose out on a lot of opportunities to gain new ones. That's just the facts and the truth of it.

It's not like we're saying that Square is going to lose all of its fans, and have to shut down the series because nobody at all buys them. That won't ever happen.

But that's not the only situation that would end Final Fantasy. All it would take would be the bigwigs at Square deciding that the energy and resources they put into the FF series would be better and more profitably used elsewhere. For now, the name alone still carries enough weight to add profitability. As other games come out which are better than anything Square has put out for years (and you've got to admit that even if you like FFXIII, even if you think it's objectively a good game, there are much better games being put out by other companies), and if Square continues to blunder around and alienate even a relatively small portion of their main fan base then, sadly, Final Fantasy is not long for this cruel, new world.

It's not a prediction, but it's a possibility. That's all any of us are pointing out. I think all of us "haters" acknowledge that Square is capable of turning it around. They have the resources, they have the history, they have a strong fan base, so it's possible. But it's not fucking inevitable like some of you seem to think. Just because they've turned it around in the past does not mean they will now. There are different people in charge than there were then, or different people in different positions. Square isn't the same company it has always been. It has changed internally. So blind faith is rather silly.

In the end, I'll continue to buy games until they prove to me they've lost it. Presently I just suspect they have. To be honest, I hoped to hear a little better defense of Square and Final Fantasy. I would love to be convinced that I'm wrong. But even if I'm right, it's not like I've given up on them yet.

If FFXV sucks, though...woe be unto you.

[VeloZer0]

1) I think SE has more or less been in a downward spiral since the merger (in terms of game quality)
2) BoB is right in that using FF13 as being indicative of anything is poor logic.

Now, I have just about given up hope on SE. But that isn't because FF13, that is because of FF10-13 and the FF7 compilation. If you look at the last decade you can clearly see a trend that I don't like any part of.

Bob is also absolutely right about the wait time exacerbating the letdown of FF13 to a lot of fans. If we had two numbered entries since it's release we would probably feel quite different right now. I though FF8 was terrible and if I was left sitting with that for several years before FF9 came out it would probably be a completely different story.

So using FF13 as a microcosm to illustrate the terminus of SE's fall is one thing, describing it as indicative of a fall is another. (For the record I think that FF13 is on the same level of quality as FF10 and FF12. Not terrible but not good either.).

[The Man]

I don't think anyone's using FFXIII as indicative of the terminus of Square Enix' fall. They seem to me to be saying that it's simply indicative that the quality of the series has declined substantially.

I'm on a lot of message boards besides just this one and the overall opinion of FFXII is much higher than it is of FFXIII. It received much better critical reviews as well.

[Bright Shield]

Sadly I think if you haven't liked X, XI, XII, XIII or XIV and don't like the look of XV... I think you have much more reason to feel the way you feel than those who simply dislike FFXIII. Sorry you feel that way, but I guess in your personal case, FF may just not be what it was. :( Sucks to hear you feel that way, though. I mean, wait, when you say you haven't loved one, have you liked one?

I didn't hate X or XII, but I wasn't really a fan either. I blame X for the shift in linearity, and XII always reminded me of an MMO. Still, they have their strong points.

The XIII saga and The VII Compilation were just bad...

[black orb]

>>> It kind of ended for me already, nothing good after XII and I dont see anything good in the future, unless they do spin-offs or remakes..:luca:

[Rin Heartilly]

I'd be sad :( However if that meant they would focus on the older entries like redoing VI - IX with HD graphics I wouldnt mind :D

[jlenoconel]

I sort of feel like Final Fantasy could do with a reboot. Would be interesting to have rebooted versions of the first 9 games in the series.