Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

[Shlup]

The new issue of V Jump has a feature on FFXV, which shows an image of a female mechanic. Cid has come in many incarnations in the series, but he's been a mechanic on several occasions. With the popularity of FFIV and FFVII, goggles are considered an iconic part of the Cid character by many, and the goggles featured around the woman's neck have sent many fans into speculation mode.

http://nichegamer.net/media/2014/12/final-fantasy-xv-12-19-14-1.jpg

How do you feel about this potential new Cid?

[Colonel Angus]

Progressive: Square makes a character a female mechanic

Not so Progressive: bOObs

[Hannibal_Khan]

Progressive: Square makes a character a female mechanic

Not so Progressive: bOObs

Dude, some women actually do have large breast. Not a big deal. Besides, look at Gladiolus...... :roll2 .

Aint nuttin wrong w/ a 'lil fan service bruh.

[Spooniest]

Being fair, that shot has equal opportunity fanservice

[Colonel Angus]

Progressive: Square makes a character a female mechanic

Not so Progressive: bOObs

Dude, some women actually do have large breast. Not a big deal. Besides, look at Gladiolus...... :roll2 .

Aint nuttin wrong w/ a 'lil fan service bruh.
It's only sexist if the women are the objects. Hasn't the media taught you anything, broseph?

[Ayen]

I think the issue is less about the size of her breasts, and more about her inability to zip up her shirt so they aren't hanging out.

[Hannibal_Khan]

I think the issue is less about the size of her breasts, and more about her inability to zip up her shirt so they aren't hanging out.

....but i don't hear "Why can't Gladiolus button his shirt up?" what gives?

Maybe they live/work in a warm climate? maybe she just proud to be beautiful.... no shame in it.

[Fynn]

Progressive: Square makes a character a female mechanic

Not so Progressive: bOObs

Dude, some women actually do have large breast. Not a big deal. Besides, look at Gladiolus...... :roll2 .

Aint nuttin wrong w/ a 'lil fan service bruh.
It's only sexist if the women are the objects. Hasn't the media taught you anything, broseph?

We still have too little info to determine if she's an object. Doesn't seem to sexist so far. And yes, as others mentioned, there's fanservice on both ends so far.

[Shlup]

Progressive: Square makes a character a female mechanic

Not so Progressive: bOObs

Dude, some women actually do have large breast. Not a big deal. Besides, look at Gladiolus...... :roll2 .

Aint nuttin wrong w/ a 'lil fan service bruh.

To be fair, according to video games, 90+% of women have large breasts without the trunk and thighs to support them.

[Hannibal_Khan]

To be fair, according to video games, 90+% of women have large breasts without the trunk and thighs to support them.

well you just pulled that number right outta your trunk sooo..... lol

What do ya expect tho, it's the entertainment industry.

[Shlup]

I'm sure I care about all the excuses for why female representation in games is trout. :roll2

I'll get back to you on that 90% number. I'm working on it!

[Night Fury]

As a large breasted lady I can assure you that we can find clothing that covers them. I take issue with the fact the guys are clearly acting as voyeurs on her by staring at her legs poking out.

I don't really care, honestly. It just bugs me that in a male only game, they just had to put in a sexualised female. Makes me even less likely to want to play it.

[Jinx]

Yeah, and there's a big difference between showing your cleavage and having your breasts completely hanging out like that. I'm not sure if this character design bothers me personally, but Shlup and Locky have a point.

As to how I feel about a female Cid in general: I think that's really cool. Especially given that the main cast is all male, it's interesting to mix things up like that.

[Spooniest]

There are actually women in the real world who wear very low cut outfits, especially during the summer.

This is a thing I saw in real life. My best educated guess on their motivation was that it was very hot outside.

[Jinx]

Saying "Oh well women do that in real life" isn't really the point.

Also, she's wearing coveralls ffs, so it's not like she's exactly "staying cool". And this is a video game (series) that's known for having people wear whatever in the harshest of climates. Please don't pretend like you actually think this has anything to do with the weather.

[Sephiroth]

Progressive: Square makes a character a female mechanic

Not so Progressive: bOObs

So a woman without breasts is progress. Hmm...

I have no problem with that, I like breasts. And a female Cid is something new.

[Psychotic]

Her outfit is shameless and embarassing on the part of Square-Enix but if I'm honest, I didn't really notice it. I don't know what that says about me, whether I'm desensitised to half dressed video game females or I'm at an age where I've grown out of liking that sort of thing. I hadn't noticed Gladiolus's wide open shirt and perfectly sculpted body either until it was pointed out in this thread.

I guess what I'm saying is it's dumb, but it's a drop in the ocean as to my feelings on the game overall.

[Fox]

Her outfit is shameless and embarassing on the part of Square-Enix but if I'm honest, I didn't really notice it.
I guess what I'm saying is it's dumb, but it's a drop in the ocean as to my feelings on the game overall.

Yeah exactly that. It's certainly a point of criticism, but making a traditionally male character a woman (assuming they follow through with her being the 'Cid' for this game) kinda makes up for it.

Although I don't really buy the "some women go around like that in real life" argument. Yes... but how many of those are mechanics working on the underside of a car? Oil from those things gets everywhere when they're being worked on, and it's a real pain to get off your skin. Long story short: it's an especially silly get up for a mechanic, so let's not pretend this is anything​ but silly fanservice.

[Jinx]

Yeah, like I said, I don't personally have a problem with it. I don't care if people do or don't; that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. But, just don't make up silly and ridiculous excuses about WHY it's like that. Just admit it's fanservice and carry on.

[Night Fury]

It's great they made their 'male' character a female. It is, but isn't Cid known for his smarts and technical abilities? Also, he's usually older. I can't remember Cid getting his kit off, ever. So yeah, they made the male character a female but not without smurfing making her look like a sex object first. They've sat and asked themselves "how can we make Cid a girl?" and the answer to that was to stick a massive rack on her and have it popping out of her shirt. So, in Cidney's case - everyone is talking about her damn tits/legs/ass/physical appearance (including me) and not the fact she's gonna be an awesome engineer and super smart. That's the issue here.

Sorry but it just reminds me of this bulltrout.

61306

You know who was an amazing girl mechanic who wasn't sexualised but was still super sexy and cute anyway because of her personality and smarts?

This gal

61307


FYI I'd have loved to see a baller 30-40 y/o lady being Cidney.

[Night Fury]

Also, I just google imaged 'topless mechanic' to see if the fellas also get down to work in barely there outfits...

You know what came up?

Ladies. All topless models posed over car bonnets in high heels 'fixing' engines while pouting at the camera.

Also, before someone says; "But, Lockharted, what if Cidney is like the best Cid ever? Just because she has big bewbs doesn't mean she isn't a good mechanic/engineer/tech person."

- Good point. I agree with you, she could be the most awesome Cid of the series, but why does she have to prove that? Why does it have to be a 'she has big boobies and she's sexy, but she actually does know what she's doing too so you can't really complain.' Why can't it just be a given that she's a great mechanic, why this sudden need that it must be proven to us that she is because you can't be sexy/booby/feminine and be a mechanic, not at all! So we must present you with a massive chested youngun to make a statement about it! No, I absolutely can complain because it is totally sexist, demeaning and ridiculous.

I'm going to stop now because I feel like I'm going on a tangent and I kind of make it my rule to not get in a tizz about these things.

[Depression Moon]

well topless is a term more referring to women. If you wanted men you should've typed shirtless. Like Psychotic, I didn't notice the breasts or the unbuttoned shirt until they were mentioned, well until I saw the cutscene for Cidney

[Shlup]

well topless is a term more referring to women. If you wanted men you should've typed shirtless. Like Psychotic, I didn't notice the breasts or the unbuttoned shirt until they were mentioned, well until I saw the cutscene for Cidney

Valid point. "Shirtless mechanic" brings up dudes.

Here are a couple of better shots:

http://i.imgur.com/d17rXk3.jpg

[Jinx]

Oh, I take back what I said earlier about her wearing coveralls. I hadn't seen a full body picture of her.

[Shlup]

Kotaku confirms (http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xv-features-the-first-female-cid-1673478411), though apparently her name is Cidney.

bp376hw

[Hannibal_Khan]

This is certainly not the first time in Final Fantasy that a character has worn a revealing outfit(male or female). Why is this one getting all the criticism? Her outfit looks like alot of other FF outfits. Move along ppl, nuthin new here.

[Yellow_Magic]

You know who was an amazing girl mechanic who wasn't sexualised but was still super sexy and cute anyway because of her personality and smarts?

This gal

61307


Uhh..in one episode, wasn't she depicted having sex after apparently being turned on by mechanical things? Is that not sexualisation?

[Psychotic]

It's a shame, 'cause in that second pic Shlup posted she looks like a really neat character with the dirty face, cap and scruffy hair, as well as that eye colour.

[Shlup]

This is certainly not the first time in Final Fantasy that a character has worn a revealing outfit(male or female). Why is this one getting all the criticism? Her outfit looks like alot of other FF outfits. Move along ppl, nuthin new here.
Maybe the "nuthin new here" is part of the problem? There have been plenty of ladies with their tits out, yes, though this is the first time I recall seeing one that's so blatantly non-sensical. She's a mechanic FFS, she needs clothes.


Uhh..in one episode, wasn't she depicted having sex after apparently being turned on by mechanical things? Is that not sexualisation?
She isn't treated as a sexual object; her sexuality isn't on display in order to titillate you. Sex and sexy isn't off the table--it's all in how it's handled. Even Inara, who's a prostitute for goodness sake, has more agency in regard to her sexuality than most female characters in video games.

That said, I do still like Cidney so far, even if she is dressed smurfing stupid.

[Fox]

This is certainly not the first time in Final Fantasy that a character has worn a revealing outfit(male or female). Why is this one getting all the criticism? Her outfit looks like alot of other FF outfits. Move along ppl, nuthin new here.

Oh? Which ones?

http://japanesestation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/final-fantasy-girls.jpg

FFX-2, sure. But that got plenty of criticism for the same reason. I don't think Cidney's design is being singled out here just because commentary on media sexism is in vogue right now... it's just being called out the same as it would (and should be) anywhere else.

[Hannibal_Khan]

Maybe the "nuthin new here" is part of the problem? There have been plenty of ladies with their tits out, yes, though this is the first time I recall seeing one that's so blatantly non-sensical. She's a mechanic FFS, she needs clothes.

Oh boy, really? the MAJORITY of FF outfits don't make any sense, practically speaking...

[Sephiroth]

I don't see how a SOLDIER with a sleeveless sweater is supposed to fight safely either. Except the shoulder armor their is nothing to actually protect them. Not that they need protection, they are overkill in this fantasy world anyway.

Celes is an Imperial general running around in a green bathing suit.

[Shlup]

Oh boy, really? the MAJORITY of FF outfits don't make any sense, practically speaking...
A majority? No. Some of the outfits are silly fantasy-wear, but very few make active non-sense.


I don't see how a SOLDIER with a sleeveless sweater is supposed to fight safely either. Except the shoulder armor their is nothing to actually protect them. Not that they need protection, they are overkill in this fantasy world anyway.

Celes is an Imperial general running around in a green bathing suit.

Other troutty examples are supposed to make this troutty example less troutty? There are practical reasons for not wearing armor, and, despite my complaints, it is okay for outfits to not make sense in a fantasy world. Those things make the choice to dress Cidney in such a ridiculous outfit tolerable perhaps, but not any less stupid.

Why can't I just think her outfit is stupid and sexist without people coming at me with "but other outfits are stupid too!" like more troutty examples somehow makes things better? What kind of logic is that? And, given the gaming industry is currently receiving heavy criticism over the percentage of female characters that are over-sexualized, I think maybe you could stop and consider whether giving me more examples of women dressed in skimpy clothes really helps your argument. Yeah, I'm already fully aware that female characters having their body on display isn't new; let's not try and portray it as some kind of "tradition."

I'm okay with Tifa's sexy outfit, Lulu's massive cans, Rydia's leggy sorceress outfit... No one's saying put video game women in burkas. All I'm saying is Cidney is a smurfing mechanic wearing a titty shirt, hotpants, and thigh boots and it makes no sense and looks ridiculous. Does that personally offend you? I don't understand your motivation for defending the outfit.

[Depression Moon]

http://media.psu.com/media/articles/14-12-20-02-58_0_large_cidney.jpg

Goldeneye DD7

[Sephiroth]

Other troutty examples are supposed to make this troutty example less troutty? There are practical reasons for not wearing armor, and, despite my complaints, it is okay for outfits to not make sense in a fantasy world. Those things make the choice to dress Cidney in such a ridiculous outfit tolerable perhaps, but not any less stupid.

It does not make it "less trouty" because that, so what you actually think of all these examples, is completely up to you. And you really think people risking their lives have more right not to wear armor out of convenience than a person who only risks getting a bit of oil on her body?



Why can't I just think her outfit is stupid and sexist without people coming at me with "but other outfits are stupid too!" like that's going to change my mind? What kind of logic is that?

It is the logic of fairness. You are okay with other things you think of as equally stupid and justify them but have a serious problem with this example of Cidney which is seriously not worse than people risking their lives wearing no actual protection and you still justify as practical. I am not actually targeting you, by the way. This has become an actual problem all over the world. People get upset because of everything, no matter how pointless it is. People do not mean anything as if they are sexists and are called sexist, people don't mean their comment racist and are called racist, they do not mean anything homophobic and are still called homophobic. Being so quick with calling people names results in a prejudice itself.

You say you see no motivation but at the same time I see no motivation for the sexism card just because there is another open-hearted person in a position where in our world it is inconvenient. I think this is getting old. Sex sells and it will always be like this. We should not make more about this than it is because it does not actually cause any harm.

EDIT to not get debate problems:


I didn't mean for this thread to be a debate, so I'll just say this: Sexualization isn't black-or-white. It's not that all displays of sexuality are objectification or none of them are, especially when it comes to fictional characters who, by definition of being fictional, have no real agency. A person, in being sexual, can be a sexual subject or a sexual object, and trying to say that someone must be either okay with every instance of sexuality or none to be consistent shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what sexual objectification is.

Which is wrong. Case A counts and Case B doesn't is because of a different relation but once the core elements of what someone wants to talk about are the same then it very well is of relevance.

We talk about convencient clothes, not matter if sexist or not. And in terms of clothes you're trying to justify your view with points that are really not good enough. And why? Because fantasy. And yes, this is an actual thing if it takes away half of the points like "this is not good to use because of reason x" as character x actually does not have that problem or this "problem" is actually insignificant.

In this relation both the mechanic and the soldier example is completely fine. The gender "issue" is not relevant for this single aspect when it comes to compare a similiarity. And if you actually want a half-naked fighter example that was in army and has like no armor which is inconvenient then I still refer to Celes.


As for armor, aside from it having nothing to do with the frequent objectification of an entire gender, isn't always appropriate. It hampers speed and agility, which are also important. When an armor choice is absolute nonsense then it's annoying, but it doesn't result in that character being objectified--the character is just dumb. Trying to equate armor choice to sexual objectification feels petty and dismissive to me.

It hampers nothing. This is Final Fantasy, a world where either light armor or speed beyond imagination exists and people can jump with large weapons, no matter what. There is a great variety of armor that would still be good even if speed is the problem, which isn't. I am sorry but the only real insult comes from you by using words like "petty" and "dismissive" as if our words are worth nothing and yours are justified just because they are "against sexism" (which is not even the problem to be honest because I am against everything that is not moderate and causes harm but this here does not). You see, my thing here is not "yeah, sex sells is great" but a "so what"? I am a man and I like it. Do you hate me now or call me perverted just because I admit that one of the oldest instincts, an actual normal thing that is supposed to be good for life, that is also a part of you is a part of me? You get upset because of something that was not even meant to be an insult in the first place. And no, just showing a half-naked woman that might not be necessary for us is still no insult. Sex sells is not always sexism. It can be an insult to you personally but it is questionable how much things that were never meant to be, in no way meant to be, insults, should be understood as an insult.

This is getting nowhere, however.

[Hannibal_Khan]

I'm okay with Tifa's sexy outfit, Lulu's massive cans, Rydia's leggy sorceress outfit... No one's saying put video game women in burkas. All I'm saying is Cidney is a smurfing mechanic wearing a titty shirt, hotpants, and thigh boots and it makes no sense and looks ridiculous. Does that personally offend you? I don't understand your motivation for defending the outfit.

Yea id be less annoyed if the criticism was consistent. Most FF outfits don't make any sense for protecting them from Guns, Sword, etc. So why should it be any different for engine oil?

Also, this- http://i.imgur.com/tiCLOGj.gif
sry, couldn't help myself

[Pumpkin]

I don't like the outfit. To me there is a difference between a sexy outfit and a sexualized outfit. But I can forgive stuff like that if the character is actually a well written and enjoyable character. If the character gets treated like a walking sex object, I'll dislike the outfit that much more. Obviously not saying that's the case here as I have no idea what they're doing with her, just talking about in general

I also just find the outfit incredibly ridiculous looking and unappealing, overly sexualized or not.

As far as having a female Cid, could be a neat idea depending how its handled. I would have expected an older lady though because Cid is usually older. We will see how it goes~

[Sephiroth]

She won't win my best Cid award anyway because that one will stay with Cid Raines.

A cool anime man comes in Final Fantasy before a good-looking lady - in my book.

[Night Fury]

Just.... Eyeroll

[Psychotic]

Don't be butts to each other. Mockery isn't cool so knock it off. Thank you for your co-operation.

[Shlup]

I didn't mean for this thread to be a debate, so I'll just say this: Sexualization isn't black-or-white. It's not that all displays of sexuality are objectification or none of them are, especially when it comes to fictional characters who, by definition of being fictional, have no real agency. A person, in being sexual, can be a sexual subject or a sexual object, and trying to say that someone must be either okay with every instance of sexuality or none to be consistent shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what sexual objectification is.

Whether a character is a sexual subject or sexual object is highly subjective. Cidney's outfit bothers me because it's extreme in its sexual nature, makes no sense for her role as a mechanic, an, based on what little I know about her, doesn't seem so far to suit her character. It seems to me that she was dressed that way to be eye candy--she's fan service. She's a sexually objectified character. If you don't agree, then I'll live with it, but don't try and get on me about how it's "not consistent" unless I dislike every leggy outfit. Or maybe the fact that 96% of sexualized imagery features women's bodies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMS4VJKekW8) has made me sensitive--I wonder why that could be a problem. (http://www.livescience.com/21806-brain-male-female-objectification.html) Hmm.

As for armor, aside from it having nothing to do with the frequent objectification of an entire gender, isn't always appropriate. It hampers speed and agility, which are also important. When an armor choice is absolute nonsense then it's annoying, but it doesn't result in that character being objectified--the character is just dumb. Trying to equate armor choice to sexual objectification feels petty and dismissive to me. Unless you just plain don't think sexual objectification is a real thing, which is possible--I've been told sexual objectification is just a feminist buzzword invented to shame men several times recently,
https://bensbitterblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/colbert.gif?w=676

[Shorty]

As a large breasted lady I can assure you that we can find clothing that covers them. I take issue with the fact the guys are clearly acting as voyeurs on her by staring at her legs poking out.

I don't really care, honestly. It just bugs me that in a male only game, they just had to put in a sexualised female. Makes me even less likely to want to play it.

This, by and far. Overall, it could be considered a minor issue in a way. It's just the notion that this keeps happening over and over and over again, game creators putting women in revealing outfits for [pick your reason]. The fatigue over this issue is emphasized even more by the total boy's club vibe that this game has going for it, which, like Shlup, makes it off-putting enough for me already.

And also, Tara's example of Kaylee Frye vs. Megan Fox was so apt.

[Mirage]

I really like her face, but she could have zipped up that zipper.

[Depression Moon]

I wonder if she'll be like Lucca.

[Hannibal_Khan]

I wonder if she'll be like Lucca.

No. She is an object. Thats all she will be.

[Spooniest]

61323

Nobody's brought this up.

This is Luna, I guess?

That's awfully low cut as well! Is it ok because she's not super endowed, wearing tough clothes and filling a traditionally male role?

I'm honestly asking, because I'm socially inept in the extreme.

[Shauna]

Not a single person has said that a low cut top is not okay under any circumstances. Nobody has said that Cidney shouldn't be wearing those clothes. So yes, Luna wearing those clothes is okay.

I mean really, Cidney wearing that outfit is okay too. It is just being side eyed though, which is understandable. For the entirety of the series Cid has worn reasonable clothes for a mechanic, and then suddenly when it's a girl there needs to be hot pants and an unzipped top with boobs hanging out. Which yeah, are probably not the most appropriate clothes for a mechanic to wear.

Again, nobody is saying that this type of clothing is bad. Nobody is saying that sexy clothes aren't allowed, or that a character being in sexy clothes automatically makes her a sex object. We know nothing about Cidney right now, so we can't say if she's been relegated to that role, and I have every faith that she won't be. We're just saying that Square Enix made a dumb decision putting her in those clothes, which will be commentary present even if she is amazing.

It's not the last time a video game developer is going to do something stupid relating to female representation, and next time we'll talk about it too.

[Shlup]

Nobody's brought this up.

This is Luna, I guess?

That's awfully low cut as well! Is it ok because she's not super endowed, wearing tough clothes and filling a traditionally male role?

I'm honestly asking, because I'm socially inept in the extreme.
In my opinion, knowing very little about the character, it doesn't seem to me that her sexuality is beibg paraded out for someone else's pleasure.


I wonder if she'll be like Lucca.

No. She is an object. Thats all she will be.
Oh for heavens sake, go cuddle up with you straw man and go pout about people expressing perfectly valid criticism of one detail of the game somewhere else. Really now.

[Del Murder]

Maybe she wears that stuff so that here customers are less likely to haggle with her outrageous mechanic prices.

[Fox]

The crux of the criticism here (ironically made all the more loud and vehement by the resistance to it) is the very clear difference in treatment with the same type of character just because she's now a woman.

How many male Cids have we had over the years? I can't think of the exact number of the top of my head, but it must be somewhere around 10. And how many of them have showed up looking like this:

http://cdn.i.ntere.st/p/6744373/image

The first time Cid's a woman? Just gotta expose everything. I mean, she's a woman! Can't just treat her the same as you would any of the male​ Cids, right? That would be preposterous!

[Mirage]

I've always wanted a cid like that :(

[Spooniest]

The only possible antidote to all this criticism is for them to make Cidney a complete and total badass.

Which (I hope) THEY WILL.

[Kalevala]

Also, this- http://i.imgur.com/tiCLOGj.gif
sry, couldn't help myself

Are you seriously implying that the only reason this would be irksome to someone is out of jealousy?

[FFFFsephychibi]

I'm a straight woman, and honestly, I'm totally okay with a revealing cleavage, mid section, and ass/leg on a female character.

The only time it doesn't work for me is when they are battling enemies, and have little to no armor on, and their boobs and ass are still hanging out, while getting shot with arrows and stabbed/slashed with swords.

But for a mechanic, whatever, if she doesn't mind getting dirty and oil in between her cracks, so be it.

Cidney's design is really nbd.

[Loony BoB]

I agree with everyone against Cidney's attire. Women should cover their tits the hell up, it's repulsive.

But on a more serious level, yeah, I imagine wearing those kind of clothes in that kind of workplace is kind of a silly thing to do. Maybe she just really hates doing the laundry and really likes taking showers...

All the same, this is Square Enix doing what Square Enix do. Sometimes their females cover up, sometimes they don't. Sometimes their males cover up, sometimes they don't.

I do wonder, though, really. I mean, I play FFXIV and you wouldn't believe the number of girls that voluntarily play with the skimpiest clothes when there are far more cover-up clothes than skimpy ones. I think it's fun for guys and girls to be able to go into these fantasy worlds where everyone is sexed up a little bit, and we can do so without (much) prejudice. I don't think it suddenly means it's okay to mistreat people in the real world or hold them to a standard seen in video games, though. In short, I don't blame Square Enix for sexing things up in a video game, but I do blame people who think that means that people should be treated as sex objects in the real world.

But yeah, I'm pretty confident that if that jacket was wearable crafting attire in FFXIV then a lot of girls would be wearing it (and guys, using girl characters, naturally).

[Ayen]

If it was a man with unzipped pants and a visible bulge through his underwear this conversation would be going very differently.

[Fox]

If it was a man with unzipped pants and a visible bulge through his underwear this conversation would be going very differently.

I long for the day where we can see how that conversation would go. Alas, nobody ever seems to design their male characters that way.

[Mirage]

I wonder why...

[Loony BoB]

If it was a man with unzipped pants and a visible bulge through his underwear this conversation would be going very differently.
Meet my secondary character in FFXIV. Even my main character is often seen running around with only his underwear and a gimp mask on. xD The Bulge, though, he's the one that gets the comments. I've had people come up to me and say they want to lick me up and down until I'm completely wet, or something similar to that. I'm not even kiddin'. I'd just log in as The Bulge, walk around and laugh at the comments it would bring about.

[Slothy]

I'm going to leave the whole sexualization topic alone because I agree with Shlup and have little to add there.

But as someone who spends his afternoons at school in the shop learning automotive service and working on cars/welding/using oxyacetylene torches, there would be very little sexual about her wearing clothes like those while working. Largely because her skin would be permanently stained from some pretty toxic chemicals getting on and absorbing through her skin on a daily basis, and shed be covered with plenty of burns, cuts, and bruises because she's not dressed to protect herself from the dangers inherent in her work. About the only believable part of her outfit is the goggles she has around her neck. If it weren't for those shed have no eyes either.

[Ayen]

To think I was hesitant to make that post, but now I have no regrets. No regrets at all. Behold Loony BoB's bulge, EoFF!

[Vyk]

She looks like someone out of Borderlands. It kinda clashes with the style they've had going so far

I don't mind there being a female Cid, or her being well endowed. But I've always had a problem with ridculous outfits just for the sake of having ridiculous outfits. Tidus

And she fits that. But at least with Tidus, it was really simply for the sake of having a ridiculous outfit

This one isn't even that ridiculous in comparison. The ridiculousness comes in when you know for a fact that there is an ulterior motive. To sexualize her. And why?

I mean what's his face having his shirt open is questionable, but he's not presented as a sex object. Sure, girls can drool over him if they want, and that's a nice side effect of course. But that's not the intention

With this, you can tell very clearly what the intention is. A ridiculous outfit, stripped into a revealing nature, because its a woman who in order to hang with the boys has to also be a sex object

A lot of the examples of past FF girls being in weird revealing outfits were generally tomboys or in generally male oriented roles. Celes was a badass knight. Rikku was a huge tomboy mechanic thing. So yeah. I agree with the problems. Not because they've never existed before. But because they've existed too much, for no good reason other than fan service (which isn't really a good reason, it's just a reason), and I'd like it to stop

Just have awesome characters. No need to sexualize them. People will like them or dislike them regardless. You're still going to get nudey fanart of them regardless. No real justifiable reason to expedite the issue and make it easier to for artists to photoshop them out of their clothes

But it's not a turn-off. It's just disappointment. Like the original quote that started this whole argument. They are progressive putting a female in a traditionally male role, and even so far as a traditionally male character (if this does turn out to be Cid, and not just Cid's daughter or niece or something). But they completely ruin it with primitive motivations of boobage for no reason

[Loony BoB]

I mean what's his face having his shirt open is questionable, but he's not presented as a sex object. Sure, girls can drool over him if they want, and that's a nice side effect of course. But that's not the intention.
I would be interested in knowing the intention if it's not to sexualise him. If I wear an open shirt (or no shirt) in a game, it's because I know that sexualises my character. I can understand people saying "Oh, this sexualises the female and it's ridiculous because most men don't get that" but if a guy DOES get that, suddenly it's not sexualising them... how? Sorry, just a little confused. I personally don't mind characters being sexualised (I don't mind them not, either, but to me sexualising a character isn't a great evil, regardless of gender, and it's worth noting that in some cultures boobs ain't nothin' but a thing... this is culture and tradition dictating what is and is not allowed, when really boobs just aren't any more a sex thing on girls than incredible abs are on guys as far as I'm concerned) but I'm not going to pretend it's not happening altogether.

[Ayen]

Gladiolus' thing has more to do with male power fantasy than sexual fantasy. It's the same reason why all those old action movie stars fought with their shirts off.

[Loony BoB]

Perhaps the feeling of power stems from the fact that the ladies tend to find a nicely chiseled man to be sexually attractive. I'm just sayin', from experience, the ladies do have a habit of admiring a man with that look. I know, because I have nothing like that look irl and I hear girls going on about dudes with that look all the time. It used to get to me a little, but I got over it because confidence as ever remains king. The other argument I have towards the power fantasy thing is that many of the characters in FFXIV who choose to show off their chest in FFXIV don't choose the Roegadyn race, which is (as demonstrated by The Bulge) the most physically powerful character in appearance. However you see Lalafell, Miqo'te, Hyur and Elezen males all showing off their chest, so... See also: Wolverine. Small guy. Shows off abs. Girls go gaga for Hugh Jackman. ;)

I would certainly say it has a lot to do with sex appeal. It's possible that you're only looking at it from the perspective of someone who just doesn't find that kind of thing sexually attractive. In the end, I've found that girls do most certainly like a nice chiseled man's chest, arms, buttocks and legs. Some might like other things, but I hear about these things a lot. I'm not including faces in this because both genders find it apparently completely okay to be intoxicated by the face of someone else as if that's somehow less shallow than other parts of their body. *dunno*

In the end, it's important that a person can distinguish between appearance and personality. I can appreciate these things seperately pretty well. If a girl is physically attractive but an absolute horrible personality (that sounds so harsh, honestly) then I would not be very attracted to them overall.

I do still see the sexualising going on in games (and film!), but for me it's all down to whether or not you think someone is capable of enjoying a sexy looking character without it somehow damaging their ability to appreciate other people for who they actually are in the real world. The problem is in the individual if they can not do that. If they can't do that, then... well... yeah.

[Ayen]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of a game by male developers making a male oriented game aimed at male audiences, hence there being more intent at sexualizing Cid on the part of the developers than any intent to sexualize Gladiolus. It's the same reason Quiet from MGS5 was designed the way she was. We know what the intent was, that's why people get pissed off/annoyed when it happens.

[Vyk]

It could certainly be interpreted as that, but I have my doubts if its ever intended that way. I never got the impression Vaan was meant as a sex object. I think for men, the sexualization comes from having "the bulge". Women comes from large boobs in revealing clothes

[Slothy]

Perhaps the feeling of power stems from the fact that the ladies tend to find a nicely chiseled man to be sexually attractive.

The movie Commando was not made with the intent of any women seeing it besides those forced to watch it by their boyfriends. And Arnold doesn't spend half the movie killing folks with his shirt off because women want a bodybuilder sexually. Men wanted to be Arnold. Most women don't want a guy that jacked.

Just saying.

[Shlup]

I agree with everyone against Cidney's attire. Women should cover their tits the hell up, it's repulsive.
That's kind of a smurfed up way to be dismissive of other's concerns, BoB. No one has said women should cover up.


All the same, this is Square Enix doing what Square Enix do. Sometimes their females cover up, sometimes they don't. Sometimes their males cover up, sometimes they don't.
It never ceases to amaze me when a guy (or girl, though I don't think I personally have seen this argument from a girl) comes back with the argument "Well, treating women as sex objects is just 'doing what they do.'" Like, yes, tell me that the problem is also a reason why the problem isn't a problem--sexualizing female characters is the status quo, therefore it's okay to do. And you say it with a straight face. OMG BoB.


I do wonder, though, really. I mean, I play FFXIV and you wouldn't believe the number of girls that voluntarily play with the skimpiest clothes when there are far more cover-up clothes than skimpy ones. I think it's fun for guys and girls to be able to go into these fantasy worlds where everyone is sexed up a little bit, and we can do so without (much) prejudice. I don't think it suddenly means it's okay to mistreat people in the real world or hold them to a standard seen in video games, though. In short, I don't blame Square Enix for sexing things up in a video game, but I do blame people who think that means that people should be treated as sex objects in the real world.

But yeah, I'm pretty confident that if that jacket was wearable crafting attire in FFXIV then a lot of girls would be wearing it (and guys, using girl characters, naturally).
No, you don't wonder. You are fully aware that 1) a human being expressing their own sexuality makes them a sexual subject, not object. Though using an object (your character) as a non-realistic representation of your sexuality is kind of questionable, if you think about it. 2) Men don't have the market cornered on sexual objectification. Women are trained from birth to "be pretty" and "if someone cat-calls you on the street, you should take it as a compliment." It's not a male problem, it's a society problem, so you can take your "well if women are doing it too then it couldn't possibly be a problem" card and stow it.

A person sexualizing themselves is a nuanced issue. It's why some people argue that stripping is a demeaning job, while others argue it's an empowering job. Cidney, however, isn't a real person--she was created by someone with an obvious purpose to be eye candy. She is literally a sexual object. She could be a cool character, but let's not do this "well, it's just how it is," and "well, women do it too" bulltrout like that makes her outfit less stupid.

Also, I'm sure you personally play with a lot of females in FFXIV, but keep in mind that a lot of the female characters are played by males. When you see me playing Guild Wars 2 with my guild, you'll see six females (and a male--I don't think my brother-in-law has a female character), all played by men except for me, and all dressed as skimpy as possible except for probably me.


The crux of the criticism here (ironically made all the more loud and vehement by the resistance to it) is the very clear difference in treatment with the same type of character just because she's now a woman.

Seriously. I wasn't even going to comment on it, but as soon as someone said "boob" we had to have people coming out of the woodwork defending it. Do you all seriously think the fact that 96% of sexualized imagery is of female bodies, and that the first female Cid is the only hyper-sexualized Cid are not relevant at all? Does context mean nothing to you people? For heavens sake.

Here, perky-ass Laci Green will break this shit down for you:

4dPB9MVS8

[Loony BoB]

Perhaps the feeling of power stems from the fact that the ladies tend to find a nicely chiseled man to be sexually attractive.

The movie Commando was not made with the intent of any women seeing it besides those forced to watch it by their boyfriends. And Arnold doesn't spend half the movie killing folks with his shirt off because women want a bodybuilder sexually. Men wanted to be Arnold. Most women don't want a guy that jacked.

Just saying.
As for Fassbender, Jackman, Efron...?

There appears to be a massively different stance between guys and girls with all of this. I mean, girls love Tomb Raider. Girls love Final Fantasy girls. There will probably be a lot of girls that will love Cidney just like there were a lot of girls that loved Rikku, loved Tifa, loved Vanille, loved... you get the idea. And often that is appearances kicking into it rather than just personality.

What I'm getting out of this is that guys are unable to be sexualised, while girls are able to be sexualised. It quite possibly stems from the fact that there seem to be more guys in this world who do sexualise people rather than the fact that girls or guys are being sexualised. The problem exists in the audience rather than the developer. What does a developer have to do? Make everyone ugly just for the sake of making them ugly? Dress everyone approriately at all times? Whatever happened to fantasy?

In the end, I just think that it's not a problem to sexualise fictional people. So long as you're not going around insisting that real people dress in skimpy clothing, I just don't a problem on a personal level. It's hard to really put into words, I suppose, but if the only people to watch an action film were females I don't think we'd suddenly be seeing any fewer men with their shirts off. Girls like a bit of eye candy just like guys do.

[Vyk]

I think if it were more clear that they were interested in aiming the game at female audiences, there would be a different vibe coming from the male characters (and likely the female characters)

Sexualized males represented in dating sims aimed at females would be a better example of a counter-argument, than trying to twist the male characters of a game into an argument about the sexualization of female characters from a game obviously aimed at males

Edit: In fact, I think that's part of my problem with this. Just more proof that the male gamer means more to developers in general, and they see no reason to be more progressive. While I, for one, prefer more progressive minded games with higher thought process than just jumping on every opportunity to create fantasies derived from primitive urges. I think if you get to that point, then your writing capabilities are probably better than average. And there's a higher chance I'll enjoy your stories AND characters. But if you're just making a dude-bro roadtrip male power fantasy. Then (at least so far), there's not a good argument for really compelling and thought-provoking characters and story. They're just not representing themselves very well is all

[Loony BoB]

I'm just going with the names that women typically go on about, dude. Film industry, game industry, it doesn't matter - if anything, the fact that it's an real person in live-action film should be even more important, if anything. To say girls don't watch film would be absurd. Fewer girls play games than guys, but that gap is lessening. Girls definitely watch films.

Again, I don't mind that the likes of Jackman and co are sexualised, I have no issue with that. I know a number of girls that fancy other girls, too, and they often find the same girls attractive as I do.

I don't know how women think in general other than that they tell me, of course. I get that a lot of them get really annoyed at the portrayal of women in games, but at the same time, a lot of girls are more than happy to pick up the games that have a hot female girl leading the way, and when they are able to customise their own character, they often make 'em sexy. This is just... normal. Guys do it too. Girls don't look like insane buff freaks, but honestly I don't think guys always go down that route either. I don't imagine there are too many that intentionally go out of their way to create characters they don't find attractive on some level. I don't see a problem with this. I think there is a problem if it means the person then starts to treat real people like sex objects.

Is it okay to have sexy characters in a video game? Even if it's just for the sake of making them sexy? Sure, I don't see why not. Guy or girl. Just don't care, really. Will it make me more or less likely to buy a game? Depends on the game, I suppose. FFXV - it's gonna have a female Cid who has her boobs out. Pretty much the entire game is going to feature dudes who are designed to be attractive in all different kinds of ways. It's a brofest, we all know it. I would say that there is more eye candy in this game for those interested in men.

If you want equal treatment when it comes to attire in games, I'd say equal treatment is being given as one of each gender is goin' down the chestway. If you want to change how people react to that, you need to change the people, not the characters.

[Psychotic]

But if you're just making a dude-bro roadtrip male power fantasy. Then (at least so far), there's not a good argument for really compelling and thought-provoking characters and story.I don't think that's an accurate interpretation of what we've seen at all. Too many people have jumped to this dude-bro conclusion based purely on the fact that it's four guys in a car and I think you're doing both yourself and the game a disservice by parroting that.

They didn't hop into the car to go on a roadtrip for spring break, they got in the car to escape genocide. They are survivors of a war and fugitives from the victors. They're not looking to pick up some hotties and do a keg stand, they're living in the wilderness to survive and are being hunted. He's a prince who has lost his home, his family, everything, and now lives in poverty. He doesn't even have a home, he lives in his car! That sounds compelling to me, if a little Disney. Well, not the living out of your car thing. Substitute car for the jungle Simba went to live in I guess.

This isn't some subtle subtext, by the way. If you've seen all of the trailers you will have seen some lovely footage of their home being utterly smashed.

[Vyk]

But if you're just making a dude-bro roadtrip male power fantasy. Then (at least so far), there's not a good argument for really compelling and thought-provoking characters and story.I don't think that's an accurate interpretation of what we've seen at all. Too many people have jumped to this dude-bro conclusion based purely on the fact that it's four guys in a car and I think you're doing both yourself and the game a disservice by parroting that.

They didn't hop into the car to go on a roadtrip for spring break, they got in the car to escape genocide. They are survivors of a war and fugitives from the victors. They're not looking to pick up some hotties and do a keg stand, they're living in the wilderness to survive and are being hunted. He's a prince who has lost his home, his family, everything, and now lives in poverty. He doesn't even have a home, he lives in his car! That sounds compelling to me, if a little Disney.

This isn't some subtle subtext, by the way. If you've seen all of the trailers you will have seen some lovely footage of their home being utterly smashed.
Either I haven't watched enough trailers to actually get that, or I didn't catch that while watching them. That definitely does put a different spin on it. Though yes, my actual intent for that statement was to parrot the original feelings most people got when we originally found out that your party was nothing but guys driving across country, because that was simply what had been revealed. But I concede. It's a dated point of view, and therefore a dated argument. Thanks for the spin on the perspective though. None of this was really turning me off to the game, just a little disappointment here and there. But your synopsis does make it sound legitimately compelling. Kudos

[Slothy]

Perhaps the feeling of power stems from the fact that the ladies tend to find a nicely chiseled man to be sexually attractive.

The movie Commando was not made with the intent of any women seeing it besides those forced to watch it by their boyfriends. And Arnold doesn't spend half the movie killing folks with his shirt off because women want a bodybuilder sexually. Men wanted to be Arnold. Most women don't want a guy that jacked.

Just saying.
As for Fassbender, Jackman, Efron...?

Your rebuttal is to name some men who aren't body builders and none of whom look like the stereotypical super hero body type? You missed the point BoB. Completely missed it actually.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that a man having his shirt open or off, particularly a playable character who's meant to be a hero and is significantly muscular isn't equal to a woman mechanic with giant tits hanging out of her top because she's a female character in a video game so of course she does. With the former it's meant to make him look tough. Like he can handle himself in a fight because they're showing off his muscles, and it's intended in exactly the same fashion as someone like Arnold or characters like Superman being built like a tank. Because men frequently enjoy watching/playing the tough guy. But why are Cidney's tits hanging out? Because regardless of whatever qualities she may have as a character, guys like tits. So they're going to throw in some eye candy, even when it makes no sense. Like legitimately makes no sense at all.

Your problem is you're trying to look at depictions of men and women as being equal based on the amount of skin that's shown while ignoring hundreds of years of history and societal norms which dictated that men and women aren't equal, and still continue to do so to a much greater extent than you seem to realize today (take a trip to any beach in an english speaking first world nation and tell me how many men have no shirt on and how many women have their boobs showing and tell me that men and women aren't still treated differently. I dare you).


In the end, I just think that it's not a problem to sexualise fictional people.

So it's not a problem to take female characters who may very well be strong, well written characters in their own right, and sexualize them for absolutely no reason? To turn them into sexual objects even when doing so is not only unnecessary, but actually undermines their other attributes as a character by turning them into nothing but eye candy from a visual perspective? You don't think that that, and people being okay with it happening all of the time, demonstrates that we have a problem in society right now with how people view men and women differently? Never even mind that people frequently take social cues from what they are exposed to in their life. And before anyone gets into the idea that it's hypocritical to believe that sexualizing women in games might impact people's behaviour in the real world but not believe that violence in games does the same thing, let's remember that violence is much, much different than how people view other people. Most people can figure out that murder is bad because, if nothing else, we have some very strict laws against it and most people don't want to be murdered themselves. But how the different genders are portrayed in media is a much greyer area, and infinitely more subversive in that it takes some degree of actual thought to realize that treating women as objects is bad when you don't have anyone telling you it is save for people who tend to get written off as being lunatics, feminist extremists, social justice warriors, or any other derisive moniker people choose to use these days.

So yes, I firmly believe that many of the male characters in action movies aren't being sexualized, and that sexualizing female characters for no other reason than they have breasts is a bad thing. As Shlup said, that does not mean that sex and sexy are bad things. But this isn't a case of that. Sex and sexy used well will benefit the story and the characters in some way. It will be an element that helps drive things forward in a way that makes sense and isn't just some cheap titillation for the sake of titillation. Cidney's clothes, however, are the exact opposite of that. They serve no practical purpose (and as I said before, are actually counter productive to her profession in so many ways she's probably dying of cancer) aside from showing off her boobs. Why are her boobs being shown off? Do we need to see them for her to be sexy? That arguments already been addressed and is a resounding no. Does she need those clothes to engage in an actual well used sex scene or demonstrate some sexual tension with another character? Also no. So why is she dressed that way? If the only answer anyone can come up with is because boners then she probably shouldn't be dressed that way.

[Shlup]

So, BoB, your arguments seem to be:

1) It doesn't matter than more than 90% of sexualized imagery is of women, because sometimes women think men are sexy.

2) It's okay to sexually objectify women, full stop, as much as we'd like, because people like to feel sexy themselves. Sexual objectification is no different, value-wise, than being a sexual subject.

Why are you so bent on ignoring culture and context? Cidney doesn't exist in a vacuum.

[Loony BoB]

I dunno Vivi, those three dudes I mentioned get their shirts off and show off their abs or even drop their pants and show off their butts and girls go "ooh" and that's what the girls tell me. I'm just thinking about guys I know girls do consider to be sex objects in one way or another and I'm telling you that the guys get their shirts off and the girls love it. And that's okay.

Do the dude characters in video games look like them sometimes? Sure. Do they show off abs? Sure. Are they also considered to be highly sexualised enough to make a fuss? Not nearly as much in my experience. I don't know about these female-audience dating sims because quite frankly I don't know any females that play them and tell me about it afterwards. I can only go by what the ladies say.

And no, the actors I mentioned aren't insane bodybuilders, but they are people who are sexualised by females. Are the dudes in FFXIV, FFXII or otherwise insane bodybuilders? No. But they are sexualised, unless you think making a man attractive going by what most females find attractive to be nothing to do with sexualising in which case there are some weird double standards going down here and I don't know how to get further into it.

Why are Cidney's boobs hanging out? To sexualise her. I've already conceded that it's sexualising a girl and I already stated I don't mind that. I don't mind if they sexualise a guy but apparently that is something that is impossible to do going by your logic, either that or there are a lot of guys being sexualised anyway because, as I say, all these dudes in FFXIV are already covering the various bases - we have the emo teeny guy with the slick hair and moody look, we have the shirt-open dude, we have guy who looks stereotypically nerdy-yet-handsome, we have the fancypants metrosexual kinda guy, we have the manly man with stubble and scars, we've got the lot.

If none of them are sexualised then apparently it's damned near impossible to sexualise men, and I think that's absurd.

Nobody in this game is wearing appropriate clothing. Nobody. This is the norm for Final Fantasy games.

Regarding the hundreds of years of history and all that: I get that there were things that happened before I was alive but that's not my fault nor is it my problem. Blunt, but 100% true. I'm not the kind of guy that believes in changing his ways to be biased towards either gender because of what people did before I was born.

Regarding how many dudes have a shirt on at a beach and how many girls don't: That's personal choice, man. If they want to wear something different the power is with them to do so. Don't blame me for culture or social choices, it's not my fault. But girls like to wear bikinis, great. Guys like to wear trunks, fine. I don't wear a t-shirt at the beach very often, provided it's hot, but yeah. My choice. I wear a t-shirt if I'm feeling the chill, definitely. Danielle would too. No harm done. It's practical.

Is it a problem to sexualise video game characters for no other reason than to sexualise them? Personally, no. I don't think it's a problem. Is it a problem if it's done all the time? Yeah, sure. But I don't think girls are made to look that way all the time in Final Fantasy, certainly no more with the dudes. Both wear inappropriate clothing nearly all the time. Often involving a complete lack of coverage of vital organs. If there is one thing that Square Enix is good for, it's dishing the stupidity to men just like it dishes the stupidity to the women. So be it - they know what will drive sales and it's a business.

Again, I think you should be more interested in changing people than should be in changing attire of ladies in video games. Unless, of course, you want all attire to become reasonable in video games, in which case you should stop treating women like they are the only ones who suffer from it. Well... the only ones who suffer from it in Final Fantasy. We all know how gender biased it gets in other video game series, it's a rather famous thing. Still, even then, if there is a market for it then I'm not gonna be the guy that tells a company they aren't allowed to sex up their characters for their target demographic.

She's a mechanic and she's dressed stupidly for the job for the sake of sexual appeal. Guys are going to be in the middle of a war, in close-combat, with leather jackets and open shirts. Makes no sense either way. They're both being created this way to look cool or sexy, depending on who is looking at them. I know a lot of girls out there that might look at her and go "Oh, she is cute." Others will go "This is a terrible sexist crime." If Final Fantasy resorted to realism for females but not males, would that be more or less sexist?

I get the impression this is all down to her being a mechanic and therefore people are waving their "OMG now we can declare them sexist because her skin would burn!" when I've seen a number of shirtless guys in Final Fantasy history facing up to a hell of a lot more dangers than toxic gases, and nobody ever blinked because, well, they're dressed for power... right? Same for girls, of course. They face those dangers in bikini tops in FFX-2, apparently.

It could be a culture issue, it could be a social issue, but as for myself, I don't mind fictional characters being shown to be sexy because they are in a fantasy world where bullets, swords and toxic chemicals used by car mechanics are all things that do not harm one so easily.

Do it for all of them, or do it for none of them. You want the girls dressed appropriately, the guys should get the same run.

Personally, again, I don't give a damn so long as I don't go around treating actual people like nothing but sex objects, be it just one gender or otherwise. That is something I see as a legitimate problem.

It reminds me of people who consider porn and hentai to be things that should be illegal. If a company wants to sex something up, that's their choice and their choice alone. I personally enjoy seeing attractive people on my TV without being aroused by them or for them to be partaking in some kind of sexual activity. I think this is okay. It doesn't make me treat people any worse. I would never in my life expect either gender to dress like people do in Final Fantasy video games if they were in a hazardous environment. But thankfully, fiction, fantasy, etc.


1) It doesn't matter than more than 90% of sexualized imagery is of women, because sometimes women think men are sexy.
Sometimes any gender thinks any character of any gender is sexy. 90%? I don't know about that. I do think that female characters are, in Final Fantasy history, designed to be physically attractive to a fairly equal rate to that of males. How much sexualising is done is down to the individual. If females just happen to sexualise males less in general, do we have to start making more females physically unattractive in a game compared to males?

2) It's okay to sexually objectify women, full stop, as much as we'd like, because people like to feel sexy themselves. Sexual objectification is no different, value-wise, than being a sexual subject.
No. It's not. I never said that. I said it's okay to sexualise females as much as one likes in a fictional environment. I've never said it's okay to do it full stop and I've mentioned before that I don't think it's okay to treat actual people as sex objects, because they are actual people.

Let's not put words in my mouth, I'm only talking about fiction here, as I've said a few times in this post and before it, too.

[Ayen]

I mean, girls love Tomb Raider.

You know you can love something and still criticize it, right? I see women on this very forum criticizing Lara Croft because she's more aimed at male audiences than female.


What I'm getting out of this is that guys are unable to be sexualised, while girls are able to be sexualised.

Men can be sexualized, but let's not pretend that whatever sexualiazation men may face is anywhere near as bad as women has been, and are continuing to be objectified. The reason this happen in our media is because it happens in real life, it's a reflection on our society.

And if you want to argue fantasy, there is nothing fantasy centric about Cid's outfit to begin with. Her outfit is a standard mechanic suit with one obvious exception. You can make up fantasy clothes without breasts sticking out of it, or any of the other BS clothes that's been designed for the sole purpose to excite the player. Which is always assumed to be male by default.

Vivi has already covered the difference between male power fantasy and sexualiazation a lot better than I could.

[Loony BoB]

You know you can love something and still criticize it, right? I see women on this very forum criticizing Lara Croft because she's more aimed at male audiences than female.
Absolutely, I get that, but she won female fans over in a big way. Huge. She drove up a lot of criticism but I'll be damned if she didn't increase the number of females playing video games. I'm not sure what you lot make of that, though.

On a sidenote, it also depends on what you think of when you're talking about 'fantasy'. I meant it in more ways than one. ;) I'm not saying full on sexual fantasy, but a hot mechanic girl? I'm down with that. I'm sure girls have often seen guys with their shirts off when dealing with cars in the media, and nobody has blinked.


Men can be sexualized, but let's not pretend that whatever sexualiazation men may face is anywhere near as bad as women has been, and are continuing to be objectified. The reason this happen in our media is because it happens in real life, it's a reflection on our society.
Again, this is all down to what you see as sexualising. Look up any article on what physique females prefer and you'll find it's pretty much directly on par with a large number of male video game characters. There's a lot of ways to look at this, really. Perhaps females are less likely to let people know that they sexualise males. Perhaps females are less likely to sexualise males in general due to just generally not finding males as physically 'sexy', even at their prime, as a female can be according to men. There's a lot to mull over there, but I think you are right when you say it's a reflection on our society - but in more ways than you might initially intend to mean.


And if you want to argue fantasy, there is nothing fantasy centric about Cid's outfit to begin with. Her outfit is a standard mechanic suit with one obvious exception. You can make up fantasy clothes without breasts sticking out of it, or any of the other BS clothes that's been designed for the sole purpose to excite the player. Which is always assumed to be male by default.
Always assumed to be someone who finds that kind of female attractive, you mean. And that goes for girls and guys alike. But think about it carefully now: How would you create a fully sexualised man? What do women want to see if they are sexualising a guy? In my experience of female reactions to male characters, it involves...

- Either a manly, rugged face or a really pretty face (Final Fantasy does both of these).
- A Brad Pitt / Hugh Jackman style body. Maybe Christian Bale when he's buffed up a bit. This involves clearly defined chest and abdominal muscles as well as strong looking arms. But not body-builder levels, they don't want that - they don't want chubby, they don't want over the top, they want inbetween - but still prefer muscular.
- Shirt off, for the above mentioned reasons.
- Bulge size is unimportant, but any kind of clothing that compliments a nice butt seems to go down well.
- If clothed, jackets, t-shirts and jeans tend to be the way to go.
- Hair can go any way. Some prefer bald guys, some prefer floppy hair, some prefer styled/spiked up hair, some prefer long hair.
- Some girls prefer a scar here or there, particularly if it's either subtle or on the chest or something.

In the end, I think most Final Fantasy males fit these sexualised images of men.

[Yellow_Magic]

Women should cover their tits the hell up, it's repulsive.

That's....kind of a screwed up thing to say, dude. Women should do whatever the hell they want wrt clothing.

[Jinx]

You guys all know that BoB was being sarcastic when he said that, right?

[Yellow_Magic]

I just figured it out LOL sorry BoB. I'm leaving my post there for posterity though

It's funny because usually I'm the one pointing out people's sarcasm detectors failing. How the tables have turned...

[Sephiroth]

And if you want to argue fantasy, there is nothing fantasy centric about Cid's outfit to begin with. Her outfit is a standard mechanic suit with one obvious exception. You can make up fantasy clothes without breasts sticking out of it, or any of the other BS clothes that's been designed for the sole purpose to excite the player. Which is always assumed to be male by default.

Vivi has already covered the difference between male power fantasy and sexualiazation a lot better than I could.

Final Fantasy is full of half-naked or hot stereotypical anime males that "everyone" loves. Also you can make an outfit or other items look totally normal like the mechanic outfit and still make it a part of the "fantasy rules".

[Shlup]

90%? I don't know about that.
I've already posted a source for that claim, so I have to say I'm more than a little insulted that you'd question me on it; it makes me feel like you really just don't care about any of the points I'm trying to make. I can give you a litany of examples for how the sexual objectification of women 1) far outpaces the sexual objectification of men, and 2) affects gender equality in negative ways, with consequences for both genders. Apparently you're just going to ignore them because you don't "feel" that this is a problem. Fictional characters both reflect and reinforce society's values.


If females just happen to sexualise males less in general, do we have to start making more females physically unattractive in a game compared to males?
We could maybe consider making the range of female body types comparable to the range of male body types. Men can be fit, fat, old, short, hulks... Women are almost always fit, young, and very often excessively busty. You are fully aware that no one's saying to get rid of attractive people; people are saying every single girl being young and busty is getting really fucking old.

I've used
https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Z-jLt02etdSysfhCEzayubr1ZbI=/assets.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2439718/overwatch_cast.0.jpg as an example before. Look at the range of body types and ages for male characters. They're short, tall, muscular, fat, young, and old. The women are young, slim, and busty. Every single one. And please come back at me with the "But men made this game for men and that's just the status quo for how men want women to be so it's okay!" Because fuck you.

You may dismiss an avalanche of examples because "everyone likes to look at pretty people," but as I said, the consequences of valuing women based on their looks and sexualizing every fucking female character are far reaching. I've posted a study that illustrates one major example, and a video that lists many more examples. I can continue to list examples until I'm blue in the face. You don't get to dismiss this as "but what's wrong with liking to look at attractive people"? I like to look at attractive people too; it's why I don't watch British TV shows. But the gap between how men and women are treated is wide; you would have to ignore thousands of studies in order to believe otherwise. Please tell me you want more studies--I will drown you in studies, motherfucker.

And don't BS me about the differences in swim wear being a simple matter of personal choice; that's being purposefully dense. Women are expected to cover their breasts because "sexual" (and illegal to show in many places). In other cultures, you'll get laughed at for thinking breasts are sexual because they're "for babies." In yet other cultures you'll get rocks thrown at you for having your shoulders covered because "sexual." This is not an issue men in any culture that I'm aware of deal with on any level.

[Hannibal_Khan]

Also, this- http://i.imgur.com/tiCLOGj.gif
sry, couldn't help myself

Are you seriously implying that the only reason this would be irksome to someone is out of jealousy?

Hmmm, your joke detector must be broken. You know, Cidney could probably fix it for ya...Oh wait, her cleavage prohibits her from doing anything useful....

To Shlup,

No one here is saying that women are not sexually objectified more than men, but i believe that 90% thing is just BS!. Did you not watch Magic Mike? well neither did I b/c Matthew McConaughey is a joke as an actor, but I have Zero problem with someone making/watching that movie.

Secondly, why is your criticism's not consistent? You say you have no problem w/ Tifa, but Cidney's outfit is no more gratuitous than Tifa's huge chest, Lulu, Yunalesca, etc. Why does open cleavage make it worse? As a man, I see no difference(in fact, i find Tifa's outfit WAY HOTTER). But just so were clear, I think Tifa is great character, first, and a great rack, second. I hope Cidney turns out to be the same.

Humans are sexual creatures(or i am anyways, maybe some of you are more highly evolved than me), and people are always going to sexualize each other to some degree or another.

There have been a vocal minority of ppl saying she looks like a bimbo/slut, and i really don't understand it.

[Agent Proto]

I want to contribute to this thread with this picture and caption.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/355/1/9/cidney_by_j3_proto-d8anx56.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/147347-pr00t-s-quick-drawings?p=3494206#post3494206)
You mad bro?

[Vyk]

I think the difference might be Tifa at least had a shirt on and it wasn't open down to her bellybutton for the sole purpose of showing off her goods. Her goods are big enough that they get put on display regardless. And granted, its fiction, so it didn't have to be that way regardless. But supposing she's a real person, at least she tried to put clothes on like a normal person. This girl is designed to look deliberately like she's unzipped just to show things off. Which, again, its fiction, so that's certainly the point. But I think the creators have the capability of being more tasteful these days

I think my big issue is that I am a man with sexual desires, but I don't need a game company pandering to the more primal side of me that I barely even pay any attention to. It's insulting to presume that the only way to get me to pay attention to a female characters is to shove her boobs in my face. Or if that's not what they're trying to do, then the only other explanation is that they don't think they made her likable enough so they substitute quality with boobs. It's like a substance of style thing. If all they're going to do is show style, I presume its a compensation thing, and she may not have substance. Or if she has substance, why parade her boobs out like they're pandering to cavemen who only think about sex

End of the story is that I am obviously not the main demographic they are aiming this game at. I can accept that, and I hope to still find a lot to enjoy it. Like I said earlier, this will not ruin the experience by itself. But I hope its not a sign of other things that they didn't put much thought into and try to overcompensate for..

[Shlup]

Hmmm, your joke detector must be broken. You know, Cidney could probably fix it for ya...Oh wait, her cleavage prohibits her from doing anything useful....
If it makes you feel better, I laughed.


No one here is saying that women are not sexually objectified more than men, but i believe that 90% thing is just BS!
And I care so much more about what you "believe" than I care about actual research done by professionals in the field. I'm glad you can just be "smurf science, reality is based on my feelings!" but I am not in a similar boat.

And it was approximately 96%.


Did you not watch Magic Mike?
Thank you for one counter example. I'm... proven wrong by this in what way? Though I can't speak to its content because I didn't see it.


Secondly, why is your criticism's not consistent? You say you have no problem w/ Tifa, but Cidney's outfit is no more gratuitous than Tifa's huge chest, Lulu, Yunalesca, etc. Why does open cleavage make it worse? As a man, I see no difference(in fact, i find Tifa's outfit WAY HOTTER). But just were clear, I think Tifa is great character, first, and a great rack, second.
I've already addressed this. Sexualization is not black-and-white. It's not that everything must be sexual objectification or none of it is. I do have criticisms of Tifa. I like Tifa, and I'll probably like Cidney, but Tifa's breasts are far too large for her to be bouncing around without severe back problems, and her skirt isn't really practical for fighting. She's not a mechanic though--she owns a bar, so her outfit doesn't make active non-sense for her profession. Though if someone disliked Tifa entirely for the aforementioned reasons I wouldn't think they were insane.

Cidney's outfit I have a problem with because, as I've said several times, her outfit makes active non-sense for her profession, no male Cids are sexualized, and sexual objectification of women already far outpaces that of men so continuing to perpetuate that at the first opportunity is smurfing irritating.

Of course you think Tifa has a great rack. That's why they gave her boobs of an unhealthy size--for you. For your pleasure.

Again, sexualization isn't black-and-white, so telling me I'm "inconsistent" for viewing completely different things differently doesn't hold water.


Humans are sexual creatures(or i am anyways, maybe some of you are more highly evolved than me), and people are always going to sexualize each other to some degree or another.
Yes, and no one's saying that's not ever okay. In fact, I promoted the idea that, ideally, people would be treated as sexual subjects most of the time and sexual objects some of the time. I apologize if my complaint wasn't clear, so I'll try to state it very plainly here: Men and women are not treated anywhere near the same in regards to sexualization. Women are objectified more often than not, and at a rate far greater to that of men. Is the solution to sexualize men more? To make women less attractive? Maybe a little bit of both. Or maybe we just stop and think "Gee, we're making a character that's a mechanic. How about we dress her in something that a mechanic would wear?"


There have been a vocal minority of ppl saying she looks like a bimbo/slut, and i really don't understand it.
You know exactly why people are saying that (though I don't subscribe to slut shaming). You will not convince me that you're that dense. She's wearing a toddler's jacket over E-cup breasts, hot pants, and thigh boots. To work with machinery. Do yourself a favor and stop pretending to be oblivious to obvious things just because you also happen to enjoy looking at it. You don't have to feel guilty for enjoying looking at a sex object, you just also have to recognize the issues that come alone with that kind of blatant and ridiculous sexualization.

[Hannibal_Khan]

You mad bro?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG_f1GzmwHo

[Slothy]

but i believe that 90% thing is just BS!

Shlup posts source. You simply state the claim is BS with no sources of your own.

You don't seem to understand how a debate works.


well neither did I b/c Matthew McConaughey is a joke as an actor

Off topic, but you should really watch some of his more recent, and highly acclaimed, roles. Dude has chops.


Secondly, why is your criticism's not consistent? You say you have no problem w/ Tifa, but Cidney's outfit is no more gratuitous than Tifa's huge chest, Lulu, Yunalesca, etc.

When did she say she has no problem with those? Did I miss it or is staying on topic considered tacit endorsement of characters that aren't really being directly discussed now? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Loony BoB]

90%? I don't know about that.
I've already posted a source for that claim, so I have to say I'm more than a little insulted that you'd question me on it; it makes me feel like you really just don't care about any of the points I'm trying to make.
I haven't read every post in the thread. :shobon: I'll get to this in a bit. But just for clarification: I said "I don't know about that" not as a dismissal but as a genuine response in the literal words: I don't know about that. At the time of the post I didn't, as I had missed a few posts before replying to the thread. It was long, okay! xD


I can give you a litany of examples for how the sexual objectification of women 1) far outpaces the sexual objectification of men, and 2) affects gender equality in negative ways, with consequences for both genders. Apparently you're just going to ignore them because you don't "feel" that this is a problem. Fictional characters both reflect and reinforce society's values.
How much of that is down to Final Fantasy, though? Is FF really the source of these issues, or is it more likely the representation of females in far worse video game series for this kind of thing? We all know the old joke - huge armouf for men, tiny bikinis for women, and off they go into a swordfight. Final Fantasy is fairer than that and I genuinely believe this. I think it's fair to bark at some games where one gender is sexualised way, way beyond that of another although that is still just a case of targeted demographics and how people react to it all.


We could maybe consider making the range of female body types comparable to the range of male body types. Men can be fit, fat, old, short, hulks... Women are almost always fit, young, and very often excessively busty. You are fully aware that no one's saying to get rid of attractive people; people are saying every single girl being young and busty is getting really smurfing old.
I actually was thinking about this - in Final Fantasy, when was the last time you saw a fat dude? Danielle and I were discussing it just now - she said Galka, but I disagree, they're muscly like mad (and only men). The only time I can think of fat characters in Final Fantasy is the midget races in the MMOs, and even then it's both genders that get the treatment, not just one. And they're only a bit chubby, really. Final Fantasy just doesn't do unfit characters in my experience. As for old, you get old women in FF just like you get old men. It might be slightly more favouring men if only because, in earlier years, Final Fantasy had a greater number of male characters in general. In recent years that table has most definitely turned (up until FFXV, naturally). Old women are known in the FF series, though.


I've used
https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Z-jLt02etdSysfhCEzayubr1ZbI=/assets.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2439718/overwatch_cast.0.jpg as an example before. Look at the range of body types and ages for male characters. They're short, tall, muscular, fat, young, and old. The women are young, slim, and busty. Every single one. And please come back at me with the "But men made this game for men and that's just the status quo for how men want women to be so it's okay!" Because smurf you.
And fair enough! I'll hold my hands up and say that I don't care about that game, but rather care about how people and how they react to such a game. If they react in a bad way then I think people should deal with that problem. However, I've never been against getting a mixture of women into games (and comics, and film, and whatever else). I do think that game is biased towards guys in a notable way. I don't have a problem with any game putting in a female dwarf or a giant female, or a fat female, or a fat old girl. Whatever works for that game.


You may dismiss an avalanche of examples because "everyone likes to look at pretty people," but as I said, the consequences of valuing women based on their looks and sexualizing every smurfing female character are far reaching. I've posted a study that illustrates one major example, and a video that lists many more examples. I can continue to list examples until I'm blue in the face. You don't get to dismiss this as "but what's wrong with liking to look at attractive people"? I like to look at attractive people too; it's why I don't watch British TV shows. But the gap between how men and women are treated is wide; you would have to ignore thousands of studies in order to believe otherwise. Please tell me you want more studies--I will drown you in studies, mothersmurfer.
I'm focusing on Final Fantasy in my debate because I do believe that men are made to look as attractive as they could possibly be, and the same goes for the females. I think it's fair and equal.


And don't BS me about the differences in swim wear being a simple matter of personal choice; that's being purposefully dense. Women are expected to cover their breasts because "sexual" (and illegal to show in many places). In other cultures, you'll get laughed at for thinking breasts are sexual because they're "for babies." In yet other cultures you'll get rocks thrown at you for having your shoulders covered because "sexual." This is not an issue men in any culture that I'm aware of deal with on any level.
It was said "on English beaches" so I was referring to them, but I completely agree with you regarding the point of boobs being different in different places. And both Danielle and I agree that boobs are just boobs and it shouldn't be a big deal, but culture has decided that they are, and just because that's happened doesn't mean I need to think it's right that it was decided that way. Neither of us do. But we have to deal with the culture we're given. Thankfully in a world of fantasy, they can put in whatever the hell damned culture they want to (provided they can still make money from it).

Anyway, I had to dig around your posts a fair bit to find the 96% thing, but again, it begs the question I posed to ToriJ: Perhaps females are less likely to let people know that they sexualise males. Perhaps females are less likely to sexualise males in general due to just generally not finding males as physically 'sexy', even at their prime, as a female can be according to men. There's a lot to mull over there, but I think you are right when you say it's a reflection on our society - but in more ways than you might initially intend to mean.

I asked Danielle what she considers to be sexy on a guy and we agreed that the most sexualised a guy can be is open shirt, jeans, buff. It's not much more than that. And that happens with the guys. It's just that... it's not as globally "OMG'ed" over, be that because of girls (and homosexual men etc. but you know what I mean) not playing the games, not being as vocal about it as your average straight guy is or perhaps just simply it doesn't get as 'hot under the collar' as a straight guy looking at a girl due to genetic differences or some other kind of cultural/scientific reason. I dunno. But a guy at his very sexiest will probably still never be criticised. My perspective? It's probably because guys just don't give a crap if a guy looks like Gladiolus. Is he being sexualised? Yes. Yes, he is. If he was only an NPC like Cidney, would anyone give a rat's arse? No, no they wouldn't. Just because most games sexualise women more than men doesn't mean that Final Fantasy isn't one of the fairest examples out there - they sexualise girls and guys. Anyone who argues otherwise makes me shake my head, because I honestly don't know how more sexualised a guy is supposed to be. Danielle said she preferred showing chest/abs, jeans, manly look. Tick, tick, tick. I asked if Gladiolus could have been more sexualised. Her answer? Hmm... no. :p She's happy. I'm happy. I don't believe that Final Fantasy sexualises one gender and not the other. No fat blokes, no ugly blokes. Some blokes with any sexualising possible done to them.

Also, I imagine based on the bits I watched of that video that it covers so much more than video games, let alone Final Fantasy, and I completely agree that it is wrong that 96% of sexualising is done using females, especially if using real females and with some of the taglines being read out in that video, which were majorly offensive (the "She might not be your first, but do you care?" thing - what the hell). What I'm getting at is that I don't believe Final Fantasy is part of that problem and I don't think they could sexualise men much more if they wanted to unless every male had their tops open, but then, often a female will be well covered so then it goes back to whether it's being fair or not to both genders.

But yeah, I just don't think FF is contributing to the 96% like you might (or might not!) feel it is. I think with FF, it's closer to something like perhaps 50-60% as I think 95% of the characters in FF games are designed to be physically attractive. It also may have something to do with those things I mentioned to ToriJ, again, though. I genuinely wouldn't mind someday sitting back and talking with you about it in person because I think it would be really interesting, but on forums I fear a lot of our tone gets lost in the internet and it comes out super serious so yeah, don't think I'm totally oblivious to oversexualisation of females, just that in fiction I don't personally see it as a problem provided the people - and I can only refer to myself when it's what I deem as okay for me - are capable of seperating fiction from the real world. I mean, I don't go watching Game of Thrones and deciding how to treat women based on that, either. It's important to be able to seperate the real world from games in this way. Or rather, real people and characters. I see Danielle doll her character up in skimpy clothes and I think the character looks sexy, she likes it. Another person's character - a male, even, playing as a female - dresses their character up and I think that character is sexy. Does that mean I instantly think the dude irl is sexy and treat him like a sex object? Hell no. xD

EDIT: Oh man I did not intend on that long a post, dammit Shlup, what you doing to me. :stare:

[Shlup]

90%? I don't know about that.
I've already posted a source for that claim, so I have to say I'm more than a little insulted that you'd question me on it; it makes me feel like you really just don't care about any of the points I'm trying to make.
I haven't read every post in the thread. :shobon: I'll get to this in a bit. But just for clarification: I said "I don't know about that" not as a dismissal but as a genuine response in the literal words: I don't know about that. At the time of the post I didn't, as I had missed a few posts before replying to the thread. It was long, okay! xD
No forgiveness. Grudge against you forever.


How much of that is down to Final Fantasy, though? Is FF really the source of these issues, or is it more likely the representation of females in far worse video game series for this kind of thing? We all know the old joke - huge armouf for men, tiny bikinis for women, and off they go into a swordfight. Final Fantasy is fairer than that and I genuinely believe this. I think it's fair to bark at some games where one gender is sexualised way, way beyond that of another although that is still just a case of targeted demographics and how people react to it all.
What does Final Fantasy have to do with anything? I'm not talking about the series; I'm talking about Cidney. Neither of which exist in a vacuum regardless.


I actually was thinking about this - in Final Fantasy, when was the last time you saw a fat dude? Danielle and I were discussing it just now - she said Galka, but I disagree, they're muscly like mad (and only men). The only time I can think of fat characters in Final Fantasy is the midget races in the MMOs, and even then it's both genders that get the treatment, not just one. And they're only a bit chubby, really. Final Fantasy just doesn't do unfit characters in my experience. As for old, you get old women in FF just like you get old men. It might be slightly more favouring men if only because, in earlier years, Final Fantasy had a greater number of male characters in general. In recent years that table has most definitely turned (up until FFXV, naturally). Old women are known in the FF series, though.
Queen Brahne, actually. Maybe Steiner? I don't know. FF still doesn't exist in a vacuum though.


And fair enough! I'll hold my hands up and say that I don't care about that game, but rather care about how people and how they react to such a game. If they react in a bad way then I think people should deal with that problem. However, I've never been against getting a mixture of women into games (and comics, and film, and whatever else). I do think that game is biased towards guys in a notable way. I don't have a problem with any game putting in a female dwarf or a giant female, or a fat female, or a fat old girl. Whatever works for that game.
A wide range of males and very narrow range of females "works for that game"?
http://i.imgur.com/cbl5Cn0.gif. And we're back to the "Well the game is made for males so of course female representation is shit, because males view women as sex objects! Duh!" I hate you.

Also, that game is an example. It's representative of the status quo for female representation in games, especially playable characters. You're focused too much on that game being that game; it's a reflection of how gaming and the medial treat men


I'm focusing on Final Fantasy in my debate because I do believe that men are made to look as attractive as they could possibly be, and the same goes for the females. I think it's fair and equal.
Then you're being purposefully dense. It's pretty easy to make a list of playable characters in every FF game and categorize them as attractive males, attractive females, unattractive males, and unattractive females. Guess which column will be empty?

I'd give an example, but I have to finish this post and get ready for work. Side-ish note: I'm actually working on a study that analyzes this very thing, and hope to get my Kickstarter up sometime in January or February.


But we have to deal with the culture we're given.
No, not really. We can free the titties of their bondage if we just believe hard enough.


Anyway, I had to dig around your posts a fair bit to find the 96% thing, but again, it begs the question I posed to ToriJ: Perhaps females are less likely to let people know that they sexualise males. Perhaps females are less likely to sexualise males in general due to just generally not finding males as physically 'sexy', even at their prime, as a female can be according to men. There's a lot to mull over there, but I think you are right when you say it's a reflection on our society - but in more ways than you might initially intend to mean.
Or you could just, like, read books and stuff. The information is out there. Yeah, it's nuanced as fuck and it's really hard to separate nature versus nurture past infancy, but you seem to be pretty focused on reality being based around your feelings instead of looking at the information that's already right in front of you.


I asked Danielle what she considers to be sexy on a guy and we agreed that the most sexualised a guy can be is open shirt, jeans, buff. It's not much more than that. And that happens with the guys. It's just that... it's not as globally "OMG'ed" over, be that because of girls (and homosexual men etc. but you know what I mean) not playing the games, not being as vocal about it as your average straight guy is or perhaps just simply it doesn't get as 'hot under the collar' as a straight guy looking at a girl due to genetic differences or some other kind of cultural/scientific reason. I dunno. But a guy at his very sexiest will probably still never be criticised. My perspective? It's probably because guys just don't give a crap if a guy looks like Gladiolus. Is he being sexualised? Yes. Yes, he is. If he was only an NPC like Cidney, would anyone give a rat's arse? No, no they wouldn't. Just because most games sexualise women more than men doesn't mean that Final Fantasy isn't one of the fairest examples out there - they sexualise girls and guys. Anyone who argues otherwise makes me shake my head, because I honestly don't know how more sexualised a guy is supposed to be. Danielle said she preferred showing chest/abs, jeans, manly look. Tick, tick, tick. I asked if Gladiolus could have been more sexualised. Her answer? Hmm... no. :p She's happy. I'm happy. I don't believe that Final Fantasy sexualises one gender and not the other. No fat blokes, no ugly blokes. Some blokes with any sexualising possible done to them.

Also, I imagine based on the bits I watched of that video that it covers so much more than video games, let alone Final Fantasy, and I completely agree that it is wrong that 96% of sexualising is done using females, especially if using real females and with some of the taglines being read out in that video, which were majorly offensive (the "She might not be your first, but do you care?" thing - what the hell). What I'm getting at is that I don't believe Final Fantasy is part of that problem and I don't think they could sexualise men much more if they wanted to unless every male had their tops open, but then, often a female will be well covered so then it goes back to whether it's being fair or not to both genders.

But yeah, I just don't think FF is contributing to the 96% like you might (or might not!) feel it is. I think with FF, it's closer to something like perhaps 50-60% as I think 95% of the characters in FF games are designed to be physically attractive. It also may have something to do with those things I mentioned to ToriJ, again, though. I genuinely wouldn't mind someday sitting back and talking with you about it in person because I think it would be really interesting, but on forums I fear a lot of our tone gets lost in the internet and it comes out super serious so yeah, don't think I'm totally oblivious to oversexualisation of females, just that in fiction I don't personally see it as a problem provided the people - and I can only refer to myself when it's what I deem as okay for me - are capable of seperating fiction from the real world. I mean, I don't go watching Game of Thrones and deciding how to treat women based on that, either. It's important to be able to seperate the real world from games in this way. Or rather, real people and characters. I see Danielle doll her character up in skimpy clothes and I think the character looks sexy, she likes it. Another person's character - a male, even, playing as a female - dresses their character up and I think that character is sexy. Does that mean I instantly think the dude irl is sexy and treat him like a sex object? Hell no. xD
I think that, besides frequently implying that FF should get a pass for not being as bad as some series, you're ignoring normalization. What's normally considered sexy for a woman is to have parts of her exposed that would be covered by "conservative" clothes. Male sexiness is more about being powerful (muscled). I mean, yeah, that's fine--I'm way turned on by a guy with his sleeves rolled, but... it's not as simple as "everyone's attractive so it's okay." The entire point of Cidney's outfit is to give you something sexy to look at, to the point where her outfit makes no sense for what she's doing. Gladiolus having his shirt open isn't dangerous considering his profession. He's not wearing that just to give me something sexual to look at--male characters display their muscles to play into the power fantasy of the male player. Unrealistic bodies on male characters are typically about male power fantasies, and unrealistic bodies on females are typically about male sex fantasies.

Also, I often see people argue in the same breath that it's okay for the women to be sexy because games are for men and that the men are sexy for the women that the game apparently isn't made for. No, you were right the first time, the games are made to appeal to men. People say this as though it makes everything alright, but 1) maybe men constantly being told that women should be sexual and men should be powerful with big man titties isn't healthy for men either and 2) maybe making games purposefully (and cheaply, as Vyk so aptly described) appeal to these harmful tropes isn't the greatest thing to do. Maybe it's lazy and old and cliche. Maybe developers could try and make dynamic characters and stories instead of just going "Guys like tits! Put in some tits!"

[Night Fury]

Nobody would stop or look twice at a shirtless guy walking around tbh. A girl with a low cut top though - oh she's a slut for sure. :roll2

Also, to the point of 'but guys are sexualised in movies too' Yes, I guess they are. But they're also given fleshed out characters with importance to the plot. They aren't just a motivation device, a love interest...

[Pumpkin]

I can't argue on every single point in this thread, so I'll just elaborate more on my view.

Overly sexualized males also make me uncomfortable. Maybe I'm in the minority. Although I do believe they are presented in a different intention as opposed to sexual objects, but either way it does make me uncomfortable. I have nothing against people being sexy, dressing sexy, being sexual, I don't think there's anything wrong with nudity BUT when I'm playing a video game, it is not with the intent of being sexually aroused, and some characters are presented as being sexy FOR that purpose, not as a personality trait, and so it makes me uncomfortable. Just like I have nothing against porn, but I don't need it playing on the back of my cereal box while I'm eating breakfast. It's not the time for me.

As far as FFXIV characters, sexy outfits don't bother me because its a choice on the part of the player. I like looking sexy. As much as I'd like to say I want to lose weight to be healthy, it would be a lie. I want to be sexy. And that's okay. But that's my choice. I can choose to wear a sexy dress and feel sexy. However, if someone were to make me wear a sexy dress in public and it wasn't my choice, it would make me extremely uncomfortable. Now tone that down to video games.

I also have nothing against sexuality in a character when it fits the character. Some women like wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Some like wearing form fitting dresses. Some are shy or quiet or reserved and some like to flirt and be more openly sexual. Both are okay. But why is the girl who is shy and modest in every other way showing off her entire body? Sometimes it makes no sense. And that's when it bothers me. Not every girl wants to go out showing off 3/4 of her boobs and her butt cheeks. Some do. So make a variety of characters.

Also, it can be redeemed when the character is actually well written. Take Ayla from Chrono Trigger. When I first saw her I was like "Oh here we go, a cavewoman waxed all over except for her perfectly coiffed hair, showing off most of her body." I thought she was going to be Miss FanService. Instead, I found her to be a genuinely awesome and interesting character. When she actually became a character and not Miss FanService, the clothing doesn't matter to me as much because she's not just there to be objectified.

I also think a lot of the reason I dislike it is because its excessive. I can pick up so many game covers and not have to worry about seeing a guy with his crotch bulge in my face while making sex face. I have had to worry about picking up a game cover to see a girl bent over, or on her knees, with her (massive) boobs sticking out while blushing sexually. Like... why all the time. And its in movies and TV and its just... it gets to be too much, you know?

And also like Shlup said, its also harder to find diversity with women. Fat men, old men, short men, tall men, sexy men, stereotypically nerdy men. Women you largely have thin girl, slightly less thin girl who is somehow supposed to be a fat girl just because she isn't rail thin, sexy nerd girl, and my favourite: old woman who is 86 BUT LOOKS 19. Because you can't just like.. have an older woman.

I'm obviously generalizing (Suikoden for example has women of all ages) but it happens a lot. Or like how its more acceptable to have a fat man on TV, but if a woman is fat or ugly its like... the entire plot of the show. Eventually it just gets exhausting you know?

Anyways, like I said, I'll have to wait to see the character, but my main issue lies with women who are created with the intention of being sexually objectified. Like that's their entire purpose. That's why they exist. And that makes me uncomfortable whether its a male or female, it just is usually female

[Hannibal_Khan]

First, Shlup, if your going to cite a source, you should do it properly and not have the link embedded in a sentence in the middle of long paragraph. Very easy to miss.

I also have a small issue with the fact that are no sources cited for her(the female speaker in the video) research in the video description. Did any of you research her claims any farther than watching said video? I doubt it. And you people call my scientific method into question..:lol:

Your original statement was-


http://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_neoclassic/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Shluphttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3493767#post3493767)To be fair, according to video games, 90+% of women have large breasts without the trunk and thighs to support them.

This is what I took issue with. This is factually incorrect, and not even supported by the evidence you gave. The woman in the video said "96% of sexually objectified images are of women". 96% of the images they deemed sexually subjective. That is quite subjective in it's self, but we have no way to check her methodology b/c their are no sources to check her research. Also, that doesn't support your claim that "90+%" of women in video games have large breast.

What you've done, is to try to put everyone that doesn't agree with your view that Cidney's attire is inappropriate on one side of the fence(the one where your are a misogynist/sexist), and yourself & those who agree with you, on the other side(the side of righteous).

I never said women aren't objectified more than man(see previous post). My argument was only that Cid's outfit is not inconsistent with with how FF characters are portrayed in the past(male & female). And you agreed, but yet you seem to have an issue with the fact that she has cleavage even though she's a mechanic. Why try and make this an argument about the unwarranted sexual objectification of women, when we know almost nothing about Cidney's character/personality? And, yes. It does sorta come-off as slut shaming.

[Loony BoB]

Shlup: Neither Cidney or FF exist in a vacuum, but I'm one of "those people" that don't think a game should try to balance out the rest of the world, I believe a game should be the fairest it can be, the best it can be. Final Fantasy is completely entitled to have a cast of attractive characters. I don't believe that Final Fantasy games are designed 100% for males. I do believe that the characters are designed to be as attractive as they can be and I don't think there is this huge imbalance in character models depending on the gender. So far I think FFXV has had "healthy/fit male" and "healthy/fit female". I don't live in a vacuum, nor does Cidney, nor does Final Fantasy. But that doesn't mean Cidney, Final Fantasy and myself all need to overcompensate to make up for the 96% out there. I think Final Fantasy are one of the few out there who are doing it right, or extremely close to right, and I'm not the kind of guy that believes they have to be the ones to add in a complete cast of ugly ladies with two sexualised men to attempt to balance out all the inconsistencies the rest of the media world has.

Don't call me "purpopsefully dense". You're going around insulting my intelligence or attitude or integrity and I don't appreciate it. Debate the details, not the person, or stop debating at all.

Regarding your reasoning for calling me purposefully dense: I do believe that unattractive males barely exist in Final Fantasy, and I do believe there is the odd unattractive female in Final Fantasy, so while unattractive (males AND females) columns will be near-empty, they will not be empty. You yourself mentioned Brahne like... four sentences earlier as an unattractive female, negating your point. Despite this I don't believe you are purposefully dense at all.


No, not really. We can free the titties of their bondage if we just believe hard enough.
I think it'll take more than just a few people 'believing' and I think you know that. You can't walk down main streets of cities with your boobs out without either acting out against the law and (much more likely) being looked upon by hundreds of people with all kinds of unwanted attention. As I say... we have to deal with the culture we're given.


Nobody would stop or look twice at a shirtless guy walking around tbh. A girl with a low cut top though - oh she's a slut for sure. :roll2
Disagree 100%. But you grew up in Newcastle, where guys are famous for taking off their shirts in any and all conditions, and now live in Perth, where it's super-hot yet simultaneously super-conservative, which may have something to do with it. ;) Where I've live, if a guy is walking around shirtless people will be thinking he is trying to show off to the girls, or is a knob, or is generally a weirdo (unless it's a beach or an insanely hot day). If a girl is walking around with a low cut top, she is not instantly viewed as a slut. If there are people out there who actually think in the way you suggested (and sadly I'm sure there are), they are stupid and we shouldn't cater to their way of thinking.


Also, to the point of 'but guys are sexualised in movies too' Yes, I guess they are. But they're also given fleshed out characters with importance to the plot. They aren't just a motivation device, a love interest...
And we have no idea how relevant Cidney will be to the plot yet, so let's not jump to conclusions!

shion: I get where you're coming from but I think it's pretty rare in modern Final Fantasy that a shy, modest female is dressed in a skimpy outfit. Penelo springs to mind. Lightning, despite what people think, is someone I would call shy and modest. Fang is the opposite, I guess.

I agree it's excessive in general, like films, advertising, etc. I can only assume that this is down to marketing and that sexy men just don't make people want to buy things nearly as much as sexy women. That's a whole different discussion though and I haven't put much thought into it, but my general feeling is that it's a problem to which I don't know the solution without restricting freedom of an artist. And it's worth noting that in my experience, girls freakin' love creating art of girls rather than men. I think it's something about the generally more aesthetically pleasing curves on a woman as opposed to a man, I dunno.

[Sephex]

Know what would be really funny? If they named her Ciddie.

[Spooniest]

SE Employee #1: Have you looked over at the FFXV subforum on EoFF?
SE Employee #2: They're going crazy over Cidney...something about sexism.
SE Employee #1: Well, as long as they're going crazy.

[Ayen]

Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.

[Spooniest]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

[Ayen]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

That's the smurfing point.

[Sephiroth]

She has no actual relevance to the plot anyway. Hajime Tabata said that already.

[Loony BoB]

Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.
You could probably say the same about Gladiolus. Say what you like, there is no profession other than "male model" that requires his attire, and his job is supposed to be 'shield to the Noctis family'. Shield? Guy doesn't even wear a vest. xD

Also, just found out something interesting which might further explain the attire of various characters in this game.

Tetsuya Nomura would be the director and character designer, but not costume designer, as Square Enix signed a contract with Japanese fashion brand "Roen" to promote their clothing designs in the game through different characters. Roen Creative Director Himuro Takahara serves as the game's costume designer.
:shrug: I guess we should expect fashionable costumes for fashion stores and nothing but fashionable costumes for fashion stores. I expect with the limited number of females that pretty much every female will be dressed by Roen.

[Spooniest]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

That's the smurfing point.

And a fine fucking point it is, indeed.

This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.

Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.

Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?

The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.

[Ayen]

Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.
You could probably say the same about Gladiolus. Say what you like, there is no profession other than "male model" that requires his attire, and his job is supposed to be 'shield to the Noctis family'. Shield? Guy doesn't even wear a vest. xD

You can, if you want to continue to miss the point that's been laid out in this thread time and time again. But a woman is more likely to be judged by their clothes than a man will ever be, but if it will get you to stop mentioning him.

Gladiolus, button up your goddamn shirt!




Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

That's the smurfing point.

And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.

This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.

Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.

Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?

The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.

Seeing that America doesn't appear to be much better than Japan in this area I fail to see how my criticism falls on wanting to convert an entire culture to my own. This whole debate happened because the Colonel said boobs, so people who liked the outfit ran to its defense and argued with anyone who dared to criticize it, as is the case every time a topic like this comes up.

[Yellow_Magic]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

That's the smurfing point.

And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.

This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.

Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.

Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?

The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.

As uncomfortable a point this is to agree with, Spooniest isn't wrong. It's worth remembering that Square Enix is a primary Japanese company, and Japanese cultural norms are far from similiar to western ones - A lot of the stuff that's regarded as a-okay over there still freaks us out for the most part. But who are we to argue their values are plain wrong?

Ultimately, whatever stances the Japanese have re: Sexualisation are mostly their own to worry about. We can voice our disagreements (and yes, I do disagree with Cidney's clothing choice like pretty much everyone else in this topic) as much as we like, but they're not obliged to change them because us Westerners said so. You could argue it makes sense from a business standpoint to discourage female sexualisation, but I don't readily have access to, say, US/Japan sales figures to draw that kinda conclusion myself.

Again, not the easiest point to make or agree with, but I attended an anthropology class recently and it really got me thinking about issues like ethnocentrism.

[Spooniest]

Seeing that America doesn't appear to be much better than Japan in this area I fail to see how my criticism falls on wanting to convert an entire culture to my own. This whole debate happened because the Colonel said boobs, so people who liked the outfit ran to its defense and argued with anyone who dared to criticize it, as is the case every time a topic like this comes up.

Well, I didn't say "at what point does ethnocentrism negate fighting for discrimination," I said "at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism?" What is the relationship between these two concepts?

[Loony BoB]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.
I'm assuming by "non-exploitative" you mean "covers up legs, covers up boobs, doesn't wear skintight gear and is generally a sweet person"? And are using their default attire, not including fanart, etc.

In which case (do forgive me if some of them are actually poor role models, I haven't played all games), at least surely some of these must apply: White Mage, Refia, Porom, Leonora, Calca, Brina, Lenna, Faris, Krile, Aeris, the female Turks, Quistis, Freya, Yuna (FFX), various FFXI characters, Penelo, Lightning, Agrias.

EDIT: As for "Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?" - reword that to "Is it right for me to shame that culture for having gender discrimination?" and the answer is yes, because no person should be discriminated against because of their gender without a damned good reason (eg. sporting events, bathrooms, that kind of thing - and even then you could argue further on whether it's appropriate).

[Spooniest]

It begs the question: what is the definition of a positive female role model that we are working from?

[Ayen]

Seeing that America doesn't appear to be much better than Japan in this area I fail to see how my criticism falls on wanting to convert an entire culture to my own. This whole debate happened because the Colonel said boobs, so people who liked the outfit ran to its defense and argued with anyone who dared to criticize it, as is the case every time a topic like this comes up.

Well, I didn't say "at what point does ethnocentrism negate fighting for discrimination," I said "at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism?" What is the relationship between these two concepts?

Hell if I know. Guess you can encounter it if the sexism in your own culture is one day abolished and you start looking your nose down on other cultures that hasn't done the same, like America is likely to do on the day it happens. Or like the rest of the world does to America on... pretty much everything.

[Loony BoB]

It begs the question: what is the definition of a positive female role model that we are working from?
Indeed. Really, being a role model should only come from their words and actions - not what they wear. Because no woman should be judged on her clothing (nor man, for that matter). So long as you're a good person, it's all gravy.

[Spooniest]

Near as I can tell, the issue is the tenet of polite society that breasts be covered. Displaying one's breasts is thought of as uncouth, attention-seeking, loud, garish, and over-the-top. Outrageous.

Why does this sound like Cid...?

[fat_moogle]

NEWSFLASH: SQUARE ENIX PULL CIDNEY FROM FINAL FANTASY XV DUE TO FANS ANGER OVER BOOBS

[Loony BoB]

Near as I can tell, the issue is the tenet of polite society that breasts be covered. Displaying one's breasts is thought of as uncouth, attention-seeking, loud, garish, and over-the-top. Outrageous.

Why does this sound like Cid...?
Eh, not so sure it sounds like Cid. Every Cid has been pretty different in all honesty. I don't think any of them have been sexualised to this degree, people are right about that. If the character were not named Cid (or Cidney or Cindy) then I don't think people would have batted too many eyelids. Things you can generally define most Cids by would be: Something to do with airships, older than the main cast, one of the good guys. There are naturally notable exceptions to these rules.

[Spooniest]

I guess I'm thinking particularly of IV and VII, yeah. But those were my favorite portrayals, so I guess it's confirmation bias at work.

[Ayen]

NEWSFLASH: SQUARE ENIX PULL CIDNEY FROM FINAL FANTASY XV DUE TO FANS ANGER OVER BOOBS

Nah, it was because they knew I'm a likely suspect of bombing them. You've appeased me for now, Square.

[Shlup]

First, Shlup, if your going to cite a source, you should do it properly and not have the link embedded in a sentence in the middle of long paragraph. Very easy to miss.
Are we going to argue about the appropriate way to cite things in a forum post? Nobody likes a pedant.


I also have a small issue with the fact that are no sources cited for her(the female speaker in the video) research in the video description. Did any of you research her claims any farther than watching said video? I doubt it. And you people call my scientific method into question..:lol:
You can doubt it, but you would be wrong. Caroline Heldman is a PhD, a professor, and highly published. I've read a bit of her work, though it's mostly political (she's worked in politics), which I both enjoy and really don't enjoy at the same time. She got that number herself analyzing media in 2010--because, like, that kind of stuff is part of her job. You can decide to dismiss a respected professional and her work based on nothing but your "feelings" on the topic if you want, I suppose. I appreciate that, instead of offering something that proves anything I've said wrong, you're just saying "Nah, I choose not to believe this information, therefore you're wrong." You sure put me in my place.

I mean FFS. :mymelbert:


Your original statement was-


http://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_neoclassic/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Shluphttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3493767#post3493767)To be fair, according to video games, 90+% of women have large breasts without the trunk and thighs to support them.

This is what I took issue with. This is factually incorrect, and not even supported by the evidence you gave. The woman in the video said "96% of sexually objectified images are of women". 96% of the images they deemed sexually subjective. That is quite subjective in it's self, but we have no way to check her methodology b/c their are no sources to check her research. Also, that doesn't support your claim that "90+%" of women in video games have large breast.
You're right, it's not supported by the evidence I gave. What you're doing here is taking the one exaggeration I made (which is not related to Caroline Heldman's research) and using that to dismiss everything I've said, including things I've offered citations for, based on that one thing. Though I do apologize that it wasn't obvious that I was being facetious with that comment. If I state something specific like that as fact, I wouldn't post it without a citation.


What you've done, is to try to put everyone that doesn't agree with your view that Cidney's attire is inappropriate on one side of the fence(the one where your are a misogynist/sexist), and yourself & those who agree with you, on the other side(the side of righteous).
You would be hard pressed to convince me that Cidney's attire is appropriate for her role as a mechanic. I don't appreciate you putting the words "misogynist" and "sexist" into my mouth though; I never called anyone any such thing.


I never said women aren't objectified more than man(see previous post). My argument was only that Cid's outfit is not inconsistent with with how FF characters are portrayed in the past(male & female). And you agreed, but yet you seem to have an issue with the fact that she has cleavage even though she's a mechanic. Why try and make this an argument about the unwarranted sexual objectification of women, when we know almost nothing about Cidney's character/personality? And, yes. It does sorta come-off as slut shaming.
You can't simultaneously make the argument that female characters in games aren't oversexualized all that much, and also the argument that oversexualizing a female characters is consistent with how characters in FF games are portrayed.

And I don't agree that male characters in FF are sexualized even a fraction of the amount of the female characters. Even if I do agree that female characters are consistently sexualized, that doesn't come anywhere close to meaning I'm then somehow okay with that. The point I'm making is that the frequency with which female characters are objectified actually makes me the opposite of okay with it, so telling me her titties are consistent with how characters are treated by the series would be actually proving my point.

I know enough about Cidney's character to know her outfit makes the opposite of sense. It's a very cheap and forced attempt to give males something to oogle. The very idea that you're pretending otherwise is just insulting. I understand that you may be completely unable, to understand disparities in how men and women are treated by the media, how that reflects society, and how it influences society, but you can't possibly be dense enough to think there is a context where that outfit makes sense for that character, even if you are willing to completely ignore the implications of the first female Cid being hyper sexualized in a culture where sexual objectification of women already far outpaces men. I don't believe you are unable though; you seem really unwilling though. I don't understand your personal investment in defending an obvious cheap trope.


Shlup: Neither Cidney or FF exist in a vacuum, but I'm one of "those people" that don't think a game should try to balance out the rest of the world, I believe a game should be the fairest it can be, the best it can be. Final Fantasy is completely entitled to have a cast of attractive characters. I don't believe that Final Fantasy games are designed 100% for males. I do believe that the characters are designed to be as attractive as they can be and I don't think there is this huge imbalance in character models depending on the gender. So far I think FFXV has had "healthy/fit male" and "healthy/fit female". I don't live in a vacuum, nor does Cidney, nor does Final Fantasy. But that doesn't mean Cidney, Final Fantasy and myself all need to overcompensate to make up for the 96% out there. I think Final Fantasy are one of the few out there who are doing it right, or extremely close to right, and I'm not the kind of guy that believes they have to be the ones to add in a complete cast of ugly ladies with two sexualised men to attempt to balance out all the inconsistencies the rest of the media world has.
Yes, they are entitled to objectify women in a cheap attempt to sexually thrill male players. And I'm entitled to criticize that cheap attempt. I'm entitled to feel disappointed that a franchise I enjoy would choose to make Cid female for the first time ever, but also make sure she's sexy and her clothing exposes her to the point where it's a ridiculous and dangerous outfit for her profession.

You don't need to overcompensate. Maybe you could just, like compensate. No one's saying make a game with all ugly people on purpose to counter-balance all the attractive people. I mean, really, you can save this straw man martyr for the titties bullshit. No one's saying she has to be ugly, just that her outfit is stupid. It's cheap pandering at the expense of a group of people who are already treated as sexual objects to the point where people see men as whole people and women as a sum of their parts. Do you understand how much this kind of culture affects everything? And yet, someone opens their mouth and says "Hey, that outfit is stupid," and we have to spend multiple pages defending why we think it's stupid to perpetuate a cliche that already has many well documented negative effects on men and women alike. Because you want to be one of "those people" who says "Hey, it's not my responsibility to care," even though caring costs you very little. Like, literally all I'm doing is saying is "that outfit is stupid" but that's just too much effort for Daniel! Not your responsibility to take seven seconds to acknowledge the outfit is cheap pandering!

Hell, the only reason we're even having this conversation is because, as soon as one person made a small comment criticizing the outfit, people had to come in to be sure everyone understood that sexual objectification is totally no big deal. I don't understand the motivation. Is the idea that women should be displayed for your sexual pleasure maybe a little less frequently threatening somehow? I don't think that's the case but it's all I can think of.


Don't call me "purpopsefully dense". You're going around insulting my intelligence or attitude or integrity and I don't appreciate it. Debate the details, not the person, or stop debating at all.

Regarding your reasoning for calling me purposefully dense: I do believe that unattractive males barely exist in Final Fantasy, and I do believe there is the odd unattractive female in Final Fantasy, so while unattractive (males AND females) columns will be near-empty, they will not be empty. You yourself mentioned Brahne like... four sentences earlier as an unattractive female, negating your point. Despite this I don't believe you are purposefully dense at all.
Oh for goodness sake, it's not like I called you a name. I called you out on your behavior. I apologize; I thought you would have to be purposefully dense to say "It's fair and equal" with a straight face. That was my mistake, unfortunately.

Anyway, I specifically stated playable characters, not that I believe the ratio would be much different, if any different, if we were to take the time and effort into expanding it into all named characters. Regardless, you think is equal? Fine, I'll tally that shit up for you right now.

Playable characters in FF3-13 (I skipped 1 & 2 because they're pixels FFS):
Attractive males: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 29
Unattractive males: |||||||||||||||| 16
Attractive females: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25
Unattractive females: ||| 3
Non-gendered: | Quina

That makes 35.5% of male playable characters unattractive (I counted Sazh and Shadow as attractive, for example) and 10.7% of females (Porom, Freya, and Eiko). A male character is more than three times more likely to be unattractive than a female character. You think this is equal? There are several (four or five? I didn't count) elderly male characters, but zero female. I did not count whether or not they were sexy, mostly because I just kind of want to go to bed, though the project I'm working on will include that kind of information.



No, not really. We can free the titties of their bondage if we just believe hard enough.
I think it'll take more than just a few people 'believing' and I think you know that. You can't walk down main streets of cities with your boobs out without either acting out against the law and (much more likely) being looked upon by hundreds of people with all kinds of unwanted attention. As I say... we have to deal with the culture we're given.
Sorry, I'm one of "those people" who doesn't believe in doing more than just believing. How're you gonna come at me as one of "those people" who thinks calling an outfit stupid is too much effort and then preach at me about doing more and "believing"? I'm the one who's speaking out against stupid sexist bullshit here. I'm the one with my boob exposed in public because I will not be sent to a booth or wear an uncomfortable blanket to feed my kid. How about you try doing more than just "believing," like just fucking acknowledging that Cidney's outfit is sexually objectifying and that is a problem? Even if you still like the series and the game and the character, that outfit is shit for more reasons than it just being ugly.


I agree it's excessive in general, like films, advertising, etc. I can only assume that this is down to marketing and that sexy men just don't make people want to buy things nearly as much as sexy women. That's a whole different discussion though and I haven't put much thought into it, but my general feeling is that it's a problem to which I don't know the solution without restricting freedom of an artist. And it's worth noting that in my experience, girls freakin' love creating art of girls rather than men. I think it's something about the generally more aesthetically pleasing curves on a woman as opposed to a man, I dunno.
Yes, we can tell you haven't put that much thought in it. And I don't say that to come down on you, but I do think you should put some thought into it, for goodness sake. You want a solution? I'll give you a hint: simple things like saying "Hey, I don't appreciate the cheap pandering of a mechanic in a nonsensical costume for the sake of being sexy" is participating in the solution. That is literally all I require of you. The TeDx talk I posted also has quite a few of the answers to the questions you're asking.

Here (http://seejane.org/research-informs-empowers/) is another good link, if you have the time. You could save it for later if you want. Or save it for when you have a daughter and these issues really start to mean something because you don't want her to value herself primarily based on her looks.

[Spooniest]

You want this changed?

Find any and all inboxes on the internet of anyone having anything to do with Square and send them a link to T-shirts made by this Fashion Designer who has designed the costume.

Do it all day every day until they change it.

There. Action.

[Bubba]

I have no idea what you lot are talking about. Cidney's outfit is perfectly reasonable for a mechanic. When I had my car fixed the other week she certainly knew what she was doing and didn't appear to get any grease on her exposed skin.

I'm not sure why she felt the need to lick her wrench but I'm sure that is an insider trick to enhance it's productivity.


61345

[Loony BoB]

Yes, they are entitled to objectify women in a cheap attempt to sexually thrill male players. And I'm entitled to criticize that cheap attempt. I'm entitled to feel disappointed that a franchise I enjoy would choose to make Cid female for the first time ever, but also make sure she's sexy and her clothing exposes her to the point where it's a ridiculous and dangerous outfit for her profession.
:up: Fair enough!


No one's saying she has to be ugly, just that her outfit is stupid.
To be fair, I agree with this much. I don't mind it being stupid because I'm a typical guy who has no issue looking at boobs. On the flipside, I don't mind if girls want to sexualise men, either. And I say this despite considering myself rather unattractive in appearance. I just don't see a problem with sexualising in general so long as it's being done in a fictional world, and it's being done to both genders. I imagine Cidney is dressed to titilate and I'm okay with that.


Because you want to be one of "those people" who says "Hey, it's not my responsibility to care," even though caring costs you very little. Like, literally all I'm doing is saying is "that outfit is stupid" but that's just too much effort for Daniel!
To be fair, I joined the conversation long after it was simply "This outfit is stupid." :shobon:


Hell, the only reason we're even having this conversation is because, as soon as one person made a small comment criticizing the outfit, people had to come in to be sure everyone understood that sexual objectification is totally no big deal. I don't understand the motivation. Is the idea that women should be displayed for your sexual pleasure maybe a little less frequently threatening somehow? I don't think that's the case but it's all I can think of.
It's not the case, I'm just saying that I don't think it's automatically a problem the first moment we see a girl who has her rack on display. I mean, if you live in a hot climate, this kind of thing happens. It happened in NZ all the time, I saw it in America while I was there, Menorca had it in droves, hell, the girls in Sweden and even Scotland do it sometimes. This is a Thing That Happens. Sure, they picked the most ridiculous character to do it with, but then, this is Square Enix and that's par for the course - girls and guys alike. If a guy has a sexy look with his shirt open to show off his chest and abs, dressed in about as sexy clothes as you can dress a guy in, nobody blinks. Girls - because of historic reasons - jump onto the girl with the rack out. I get that, but I do think that SE are actually pretty fair. Which brings us to...!


Attractive males: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 29
Unattractive males: |||||||||||||||| 16
Attractive females: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25
Unattractive females: ||| 3
Three? Really? You're not even counting Penelo? >_>; And who are all these unattractive males!? I'd like to see the breakdown of this list someday. :p I might even go through the list myself and state who I think is attractive and who I think is unattractive. In the end, personal perspective makes a big difference. I could even include sexy, but it's hard for me to define sexy in a man without assistance. :S I can only go by the "This is what girls find sexy... right?" kind of method if I'm doing it on my own. Basch wins, by the way. ;) But seriously, more than anything the note of too few elderly ladies raised my eyebrow. I never really think of the guys as that elderly but I guess there are a few. Were they mostly in the older games? I wish they'd bring in more elderly characters (not geriatric, but you get the idea) in modern FF's.


Sorry, I'm one of "those people" who doesn't believe in doing more than just believing. How're you gonna come at me as one of "those people" who thinks calling an outfit stupid is too much effort and then preach at me about doing more and "believing"? I'm the one who's speaking out against stupid sexist bulltrout here. I'm the one with my boob exposed in public because I will not be sent to a booth or wear an uncomfortable blanket to feed my kid. How about you try doing more than just "believing," like just smurfing acknowledging that Cidney's outfit is sexually objectifying and that is a problem? Even if you still like the series and the game and the character, that outfit is trout for more reasons than it just being ugly.
Like I say - I don't mind sexualising of fictional characters. I simply don't. I don't know what more to say on that. Goes for guys and girls. I do have a problem with people saying "This is what you should wear in the real world" but thankfully I never do that to anyone and I have no problem with girls in the real world wearing whatever the hell they want, and do my best to never judge them for it. ...with the possible exception of Lady Gaga. Don't wear meat. =|


I'll give you a hint: simple things like saying "Hey, I don't appreciate the cheap pandering of a mechanic in a nonsensical costume for the sake of being sexy" is participating in the solution.
Quite simply, I don't mind either way. They could make her wear coveralls and that's fine. They could make her wear a boiler suit, I'd be okay with that, too. They could make her wear what she's wearing now and I'll shrug. They could make her wear a gigantic marshmallow suit that makes her look like a moogle and I would just roll my eyes and go "Oh, SE." I just don't mind what people in fictional stories are wearing, and I've never been the kind of guy to say something that is a lie. I don't "appreciate" cheap pandering, but I "accept and quite frankly don't care about" cheap pandering provided it's a fictional character and it is done to each gender. I suppose I'd prefer it if there were a healthy mix of extremely sexy and most definitely not sexy characters. Get a bloke with a beer gut in there. He could be a mage or a gunner if it doesn't fly with their "but fat people can't run around with a sword" or something (but again, since when did they care about realistic outfits/bodies for jobs?).

If it went to the lengths of a game like Dead or Alive, I probably wouldn't like it. If the makers of Dead or Alive want to make that kind of game, power to them. All girls, all sexualised to the maximum. It's not for me. Cidney? Eh, one character, sexualised to about 90%, I don't mind. I see worse when walking around a hot city. Absurd for the job? Par for the course. SE likes doing that. I don't know why. But I don't get upset over it anymore, not since Tidus.

Anyway, to summarise the tl;dr of it all... :sleepy:

Things we seemingly don't agree on...
- That it's okay to sexualise an individual character for no other reason than to sexualise that individual character.
- That guys get sexualised about as much as they can be.
- That more old girls or "unattractive" people in general could be a very good thing for Final Fantasy.
- More body shapes within Final Fantasy would be a nice thing.
- That Final Fantasy should change to compensate for the rest of the industry, who are often considerably worse offenders.

Things I believe and am not sure if you agree on...
- That you shouldn't sexualise one gender if you're not going to sexualise the other one, too.
- That almost every guy in modern Final Fantasy has an attractive "fit/healthy" body type (ie, no fatties, although a couple of skinnies are probably in there like Hope).
- That guys get absurd outfits too in Final Fantasy.
- Sometimes the above happens for the sake of sexualisation over any relevant reasoning.

Things I'm pretty sure we agree on!
- The Cidney outfit is absurd and stupid for the job she is in.
- It does sexualise her, and that is probably the intention of the outfit.
- Video games in general sexualise females far more than they sexualise males, which is not a good thing.
- Film and media do this too.

[Vyk]

Also, just found out something interesting which might further explain the attire of various characters in this game.

Tetsuya Nomura would be the director and character designer, but not costume designer, as Square Enix signed a contract with Japanese fashion brand "Roen" to promote their clothing designs in the game through different characters. Roen Creative Director Himuro Takahara serves as the game's costume designer.
:shrug: I guess we should expect fashionable costumes for fashion stores and nothing but fashionable costumes for fashion stores. I expect with the limited number of females that pretty much every female will be dressed by Roen.
You know what? To me, that's a far more justifiable reason. We can never expect the fashion industry to get any more progressive. The male/female ratio is ridiculous there too, but they are quite transparent about objectifying men as frequently as they can. So at least it's a money and promotional issue, rather than some crusty old Japanese suits saying "Here's a female character... and now HERE'S HER BOOBS!"

[Ayen]

You want this changed?

Find any and all inboxes on the internet of anyone having anything to do with Square and send them a link to T-shirts made by this Fashion Designer who has designed the costume.

Do it all day every day until they change it.

There. Action.

Taking action and discussing these matters on forums aren't mutually exclusive.

[Spooniest]

You want this changed?

Find any and all inboxes on the internet of anyone having anything to do with Square and send them a link to T-shirts made by this Fashion Designer who has designed the costume.

Do it all day every day until they change it.

There. Action.

Taking action and discussing these matters on forums aren't mutually exclusive.

All I mean is that actions speak louder than words. Do something about it, or suggest that something be done, rather than simply saying that it upsets you.

If you really want to be a proper role model, do something about it. Otherwise it's a lot of protracted talk and nothing more.

[Ayen]

You want this changed?

Find any and all inboxes on the internet of anyone having anything to do with Square and send them a link to T-shirts made by this Fashion Designer who has designed the costume.

Do it all day every day until they change it.

There. Action.

Taking action and discussing these matters on forums aren't mutually exclusive.

All I mean is that actions speak louder than words. Do something about it, or suggest that something be done, rather than simply saying that it upsets you.

If you really want to be a proper role model, do something about it. Otherwise it's a lot of protracted talk and nothing more.

And all I mean is that it's possible to do both.

[Loony BoB]

I think what ToriJ means is that sometimes words are actions. Preaching the gospel, if you like. If nobody spreads the word, nobody hears about an issue and so forth.

As much as I do find it admirable to say "actions speak louder than words, let's make a real statement" - I wish I had the energy to do that for every little thing I believed in. xD I burn out from things fast enough right now. I don't blame people who don't do these kind of larger things, but I do appreciate what others do on larger scales (provided they do it the right way - no 2 terrorism etc).

[Tyson]

Wowzers this thread got out of control. I don't get the big deal really. She is very reminiscent of Rikku, who also dressed similarly even tho it didn't fit her job description. This is Final Fantasy for gods sake.

It's like complaining about Noctis's hair as it's unrealistic you'd want hair that long while swinging a sword around. Do we want everything to be 100% logical and PC in a JRPG? If you want that your probably better looking for a western RPG like Mass Effect.

This whole thing is very reminiscent of what just happened with the new Tekken game. The new character Lucky Chloe was announced (cleavage, pigtails, kawaii anime girl personality) and the western audience lost there shit. The game director eventually responded by saying on twitter "Hello small world. I'll make muscular & skinhead character for you"

Kind of a sharp dig at the western audience but I loved his response. Us westerners are so obsessed with making everything politically correct that we're stifling creativity. You create a character like Aerith and people complain that women shouldn't have to be seen as virginal or 'pure' So instead you create a confident female character that isn't afraid to show off her body but then you're being exploitive.....

[Ayen]

I think what ToriJ means is that sometimes words are actions. Preaching the gospel, if you like. If nobody spreads the word, nobody hears about an issue and so forth.

As much as I do find it admirable to say "actions speak louder than words, let's make a real statement" - I wish I had the energy to do that for every little thing I believed in. xD I burn out from things fast enough right now. I don't blame people who don't do these kind of larger things, but I do appreciate what others do on larger scales (provided they do it the right way - no 2 terrorism etc).

Close. I mainly mean it's possible to debate something on an online community and still perform the necessary action elsewhere. I'm sure there are plenty of protesters who also debate the same issues they're protesting online because internet has become a necessity and an easier means to communicate and share ideas. I remember people getting flak for simply saying "I'm praying for them" in response to a tragedy because their critics assume they weren't donating money or blood when one can easily do both things. The assumption that's it either one or the other needs to stop being made.

[Pumpkin]

Wowzers this thread got out of control. I don't get the big deal really. She is very reminiscent of Rikku, who also dressed similarly even tho it didn't fit her job description. This is Final Fantasy for gods sake.

It's like complaining about Noctis's hair as it's unrealistic you'd want hair that long while swinging a sword around. Do we want everything to be 100% logical and PC in a JRPG? If you want that your probably better looking for a western RPG like Mass Effect.

This whole thing is very reminiscent of what just happened with the new Tekken game. The new character Lucky Chloe was announced (cleavage, pigtails, kawaii anime girl personality) and the western audience lost there trout. The game director eventually responded by saying on twitter "Hello small world. I'll make muscular & skinhead character for you"

Kind of a sharp dig at the western audience but I loved his response. Us westerners are so obsessed with making everything politically correct that we're stifling creativity. You create a character like Aerith and people complain that women shouldn't have to be seen as virginal or 'pure' So instead you create a confident female character that isn't afraid to show off her body but then you're being exploitive.....

I actually don't mind the new Tekken character, I think she looks fun to use. And I don't see her looking any worse than say... Anna who is walking sex. But Anna never bugged me because it fit her personality. Although I do dislike that the later Tekken Tag game got much more fanservicey and it made me uncomfortable to the point I don't want to play it anymore.

Also, I think part of the issue with this one is that they took a precedent and changed it in a sexual way because the gender changed. Cid was USUALLY an older, not super attractive guy. Now because Cid is a woman, she's suddenly overly sexy and aged down like 20 years. I know I would personally be reacting differently if they made most of the male Cid's young and sexy and then made a female Cid that way. It would be like "Well, yeah, that's Cid."

At BoB: I understand what you're saying for the most part of it not being huge in Final Fantasy, but there are still some cases. Like in XII, I can see Fran in her outfit, I really can. Ashe not so much. If you showed me her dialogue, told me her personality, I wouldn't be like "I bet she wears a tight pink mini-skirt that could pass for a really big belt". But maybe that's me. And also as for Penelo, I personally find her one of the more attractive FF characters, and while I would say her clothing isn't the most modest (I mean you'd have to be sewn in to that thing its so tight) it certainly isn't one of the more revealing anyways. Which also makes me wonder why sometimes we can't just make characters sexy without showing off everything. Or maybe different types of sexy. Not saying it never happens, again, just talking about the general.

Like you said and I said, I do enjoy looking at cute female character designs. Its probably a form of escapism because I think I look horrible so I can pretend while I'm playing the game that I can actually be pretty. But there are ways to do that without making them walking sex objects. Again, my goal while playing a video game is not to be sexually aroused, its to play a video game. There are sites I can go to for the other thing.

There's nothing wrong with a sexy or attractive character but A) make it suit the character, don't just make them a sex toy B) Have a variety of characters. Not everyone is a super thin, super attractive, D cup. And C) It's hard to not feel like this is a bit about sexism when male Cid's have looked a certain way and then suddenly its a female Cid and its all boobs, booty shorts, and thigh high boots (which, if she's getting hot enough at work to unzip her shirt like that, she really should invest in new boots because I can guarantee you those are pretty friggin warm in there)

[Loony BoB]

Totally understand where you're coming from, especially as I was never a massive admirer of my own looks (I'm not very self-conscious these days, though, probably just due to age and general confidence in myself despite my looks which I don't see as important) and I do agree that it's absurd what they've done with her since all the other Cids have generally been older guys. At least 30 I think? But yeah.

I guess I just kind of shrug these things off, because fiction and artistic licence are a thing that I don't mess with in general. And it's not about being massively aroused, for me, either. I don't think I've been aroused by a Final Fantasy character since I was a randy teen. ^^;

I'd be far more concerned if they put in a character who had a personality that was of major concern, personally. If they started making females a secondary gender in the games, stuff like that. That would be where I go "Woah, woah, woah, no."

But appearances and suitability to jobs and general sexualising? Pah, it's a multigender silly thing Square Enix does and I genuinely don't think they are the harmful ones in the video game industry in this regard. Could they do better by adding in more variety? Yeah, but I wouldn't want them to stop having sexy characters at all because I like sexy characters.

As for Penelo, I never liked her appearance at all. Like, anything about it. I don't like latex-style clothing. I don't like her hair. I don't even like her face much. Just a personal thing. Not my preference. I could say this about quite a few FF characters, really. Selphie. Not my cup of tea for physical apperances. Fran? What was it that one guy said about feather vs. the whole damned chicken? I prefer the feather. Krile? Eh, nah, don't like ponytails much. Not a fan of Aeris's look. Not a fan of Yuna. Not a fan of Lightning that much either. :shobon: Everyone has their personal tastes, though. It's a good thing. :D

EDIT: As for personality not suiting clothing, I'm torn on it. My instinctive response is "I KNOW! Aeris and Tifa are the best example, I mean, Tifa is shy yet dresses like a confident girl, and Aeris is the opposite..." but on the other hand it goes back to "People can dress how they want to dress. I don't wanna judge people based on clothing!" so I try not be that way as best as I can, always giving people the benefit of the doubt, because exceptions are a thing.

[Mirage]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

Why universally positive? I can give you non-exploited. Faris.

[Spooniest]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

Why universally positive? I can give you non-exploited. Faris.

Male dancers in FFV are dressed reasonably, female not so much.

[Loony BoB]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

Why universally positive? I can give you non-exploited. Faris.
Male dancers in FFV are dressed reasonably, female not so much.
Yeah, I find those ten or so pixels pretty freakin' sexy man.

PS. Galuf shows more skin. ;)

[Spooniest]

People seem perfectly comfortable to discard the ethnocentrism argument out of hand.

Achievement: Made forum uncomfortable!

[Hannibal_Khan]

Originally Posted by Shluphttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3493767#post3493767) you're just saying "Nah, I choose not to believe this information, therefore you're wrong."

I never said that I didn't "believe" the information. Neither did I call Ms. Heldman's credential's or credibility into question. I simply stated that the video you cited was not some kind of irrefutable scientific evidence that supports your claim the way you are presenting it to be. Sorry if you think i'm just being a stickler, or a "pedant"(you really searched your lexicon for that one, huh? lol I had to google it, but it's now my new favorite word of the day, so thank you) but, you know, Scientific Method and such(you should google this, maybe?). It's just kinda how my brain operate's.


Originally Posted by Shluphttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3493767#post3493767) You sure put me in my place.

Here, you are directly implying that I'm some kinda of misogynist or something. Literally just one paragraph before claiming that you haven't. Also, claiming that I was dismissing Ms. Heldman's credibility is also implying that I am sexist/misogynist(because obviously i'm only doing that because she is a woman). And I don't appreciate that.


Originally Posted by Shluphttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3493767#post3493767) You can't simultaneously make the argument that female characters in games aren't oversexualized all that much, and also the argument that oversexualizing a female characters is consistent with how characters in FF games are portrayed.

Seriously, are you confusing me with someone else? I never said; "female characters aren't oversexualized all that much". Nor did I say that oversexualizing female characters was consistent in FF games. I said, "Cid's outfit isn't inconsistent with how other FF characters are portrayed". You deemed it sexually objective, not me. HAHA I am also now thoroughly annoyed with the term "sexual objectification" as it is certainly a subjective matter.

Now i'm not going to call you "dense", the way you have to other's on this thread(quite rudely, I might add), because I know that your not(and I don't need to try and talk down to people in an attempt to get my point across). Your simply highly charged on the issue of the sexual objectification of girls/women, as well you should be, but no one on here is on the other side of that issue. But you do seem to be only hearing what you want to hear, as is evident in your multiple misquotes of me(but, hey, at least you were consistent with that).

Not satisfied w/ my retort? Then let me just say what you want to hear, that way you won't have to go outta your way to misquote me in order to make me out to be a sexist pig:

Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khanhttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3494302#post3494302)
- Jeez, hysterical much?
-Why am I arguing with you? You are woman, and therefore incapable of making any sense. I hereby dismiss you.
-Why are you on your computer when you should be in a kitchen making a man his dinner.
-hmm, geuss it's that time of the month again...
-Seriously, where's my dinner?

[Psychotic]

Hey Shlup, what about Relm (10) Krile (14) and Rikku (15) you dirty old woman

[Mirage]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

Why universally positive? I can give you non-exploited. Faris.

Male dancers in FFV are dressed reasonably, female not so much.

They dress like dancers. Cindy doesn't dress like a mechanic. Stop embarrassing yourself.

[Del Murder]

Can't wait until Cidney's cleavage becomes the new EoFF banner.

[Mirage]

Ĺ
People seem perfectly comfortable to discard the ethnocentrism argument out of hand.

Achievement: Made forum uncomfortable!

Feel free to make a new thread to discuss this issue. However valid a point it is, it is off topic.

Or are you suggesting that we can't discuss one issue because other issues exist?

[Hannibal_Khan]

Also, just found out something interesting which might further explain the attire of various characters in this game.

Tetsuya Nomura would be the director and character designer, but not costume designer, as Square Enix signed a contract with Japanese fashion brand "Roen" to promote their clothing designs in the game through different characters. Roen Creative Director Himuro Takahara serves as the game's costume designer.
:shrug: I guess we should expect fashionable costumes for fashion stores and nothing but fashionable costumes for fashion stores. I expect with the limited number of females that pretty much every female will be dressed by Roen.
You know what? To me, that's a far more justifiable reason. We can never expect the fashion industry to get any more progressive. The male/female ratio is ridiculous there too, but they are quite transparent about objectifying men as frequently as they can. So at least it's a money and promotional issue, rather than some crusty old Japanese suits saying "Here's a female character... and now HERE'S HER BOOBS!"

This also has relevance to the Tedtalk Shulp cited. Most the images Ms. Heldman's used a examples of sexualy objectified women seem to be coming from fashion magazines. Now I might be wrong here, but if i'm not mistaken those are majority women in those editorial rooms deciding what goes into those magazines, which are mainly marketed towards women.

And to the people saying, "Cid's outfit doesn't look like a mechanic outfit", I say yes it does. It looks like a sexy mechanic outfit. It's almost like this game is a "Fantasy based on reality". hmm why does that sound familiar?

It's Final Fantasy! It literally has Fantasy in the title. And like Bob said previously, most character's in FF are portrayed as beautiful(except for villains, of course, who are probably disproportionately older, white-men.)

And then their's deviant.art, where there are some truly great artist(and people) who often do something very natural......... They depict our beloved FF character's in very sexually explicit ways. Are they wrong for doing this? Should we all apologize for our sex drives now?

I still find Cid's outfit tame compared to other character's outfits, but yet I've never heard this level of criticism for those character's. Is her outfit gratuitous? sure. But is it egregious? nope. fairly consistent with the rest of the title's, IMO. Everyone on this thread knew what to expect when it comes to these games.

[Jinx]

Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

[Hannibal_Khan]

Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

yunalesca. And Tifa, imo. I still don't get why people are acting like cleavage is new.

[Jinx]

Tifa's outfit isn't bad that bad. Her skirt is maybe a little short, and her shirt is midriff but she doesn't even have cleavage, she just has large breasts (and they aren't even really that large in the actual game and official artwork). The shirt covers her breasts.

And cleavage isn't the problem. In any case, it's her entire outfit, not just her shirt. You're zoning in on one single thing. It's the fact that she's wearing a belly shirt, and a hot pants where you can see the top of her underwear, and smurf-me boots.

EDIT: You're also purposefully ignoring Shlup when she keeps repeating that the fact that it isn't news is exactly the problem.

[Mirage]

Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

yunalesca. And Tifa, imo. I still don't get why people are acting like cleavage is new.
Just because it isn't new doesn't mean it's fine. I hope I don't have to make a list over things that used to be fine but aren't anymore.

[Hannibal_Khan]

Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

yunalesca. And Tifa, imo. I still don't get why people are acting like cleavage is new.
Just because it isn't new doesn't mean it's fine. I hope I don't have to make a list over things that used to be fine but aren't anymore.
So cleavage isn't fine? why not? And as posted earlier, I've been a FF fan for many years, and have been active on this particular forum for several months but have never heard these criticism's levied on the older title's character's. It seems like up until 2 days ago, this was never really an issue for the people on these boards. So what's changed?

[Fox]

Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

yunalesca. And Tifa, imo. I still don't get why people are acting like cleavage is new.
Just because it isn't new doesn't mean it's fine. I hope I don't have to make a list over things that used to be fine but aren't anymore.
So cleavage isn't fine? why not? And as posted earlier, I've been a FF fan for many years, and have been active on this particular forum for several months but have never heard these criticism's levied on the older title's character's. It seems like up until 2 days ago, this was never really an issue for the people on these boards. So what's changed?

What's changed is that those other games have already been out for more than a decade. The criticisms came and ran their course a long time ago.

[Hannibal_Khan]

Tifa's outfit isn't bad that bad. Her skirt is maybe a little short, and her trout is midriff but she doesn't even have cleavage, she just has large breasts (and they aren't even really that large in the actual game and official artwork). The shirt covers her breasts.

And cleavage isn't the problem. In any case, it's her entire outfit, not just her shirt. You're zoning in on one single thing. It's the fact that she's wearing a belly shirt, and a hot pants where you can see the top of her underwear, and smurf-me boots.

EDIT: You're also purposefully ignoring Shlup when she keeps repeating that the fact that it isn't news is exactly the problem.

Oh, so Final Fantasy is the problem? Then why are you here? Vote with your dollars and go buy tetris are some other game where you will encounter exactly 0 sexualized characters.

I see no difference in cid's outfit compared to other's in the series. And I don't think that's a problem. Long live the beautiful Cidney and Yunalesca! Long live the sexy Kuja and Gladiolus! LONG LIVE FINAL FANTASY!

[Hannibal_Khan]

Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

yunalesca. And Tifa, imo. I still don't get why people are acting like cleavage is new.
Just because it isn't new doesn't mean it's fine. I hope I don't have to make a list over things that used to be fine but aren't anymore.
So cleavage isn't fine? why not? And as posted earlier, I've been a FF fan for many years, and have been active on this particular forum for several months but have never heard these criticism's levied on the older title's character's. It seems like up until 2 days ago, this was never really an issue for the people on these boards. So what's changed?

What's changed is that those other games have already been out for more than a decade. The criticisms came and ran their course a long time ago.

So the previous title's also further the outrageous act of sexualizing women, but everyone just let it go? Then you confirm my opinion. Cid's sexy outfit isn't really a big deal...

[Jinx]

AND THE FACT THAT YOU THINK OTHER OUTFITS IN THE SERIES LOOK LIKE HER OUTFIT PROVES THERE'S A PROBLEM.

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS STATUS QUO DOESN'T MEAN IT'S OKAY.

[Jinx]

Tifa's outfit isn't bad that bad. Her skirt is maybe a little short, and her trout is midriff but she doesn't even have cleavage, she just has large breasts (and they aren't even really that large in the actual game and official artwork). The shirt covers her breasts.

And cleavage isn't the problem. In any case, it's her entire outfit, not just her shirt. You're zoning in on one single thing. It's the fact that she's wearing a belly shirt, and a hot pants where you can see the top of her underwear, and smurf-me boots.

EDIT: You're also purposefully ignoring Shlup when she keeps repeating that the fact that it isn't news is exactly the problem.

Oh, so Final Fantasy is the problem? Then why are you here? Vote with your dollars and go buy tetris are some other game where you will encounter exactly 0 sexualized characters.

I see no difference in cid's outfit compared to other's in the series. And I don't think that's a problem. Long live the beautiful Cidney and Yunalesca! Long live the sexy Kuja and Gladiolus! LONG LIVE FINAL FANTASY!

EDIT: Thanks for eating my post, EoFF.

Summary of what I posted: I have no personal problem with her outfit itself. The ACTUAL PROBLEM AS HAS BEEN STATED SEVERAL TIMES IS THE FACT THAT HER OUTFIT IS ONLY THERE TO OBJECTIFY. CLEAVAGE IS NOT THE PROBLEM, SO STOP TALKING ABOUT THAT TINY DETAIL.

And apparently you haven't been paying attention, because at the very least FFX-2 Yuna and Rikku have received plenty of criticism, including on this board.

And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say Final Fantasy was the problem. I did say that that THE FACT THAT THIS IS A DROP IN THE POND IS A PROBLEM.

[Fox]

Let it go? No... we just don't get hung up on criticisms of good games - however valid those criticisms are - for the rest of our lives. It is possible to enjoy something whilst admitting it has problematic aspects. The world isn't about "total acceptance" or "complete condemnation", there are areas in between. I loved and look back fondly on Final Fantasy VII, while also accepting it was flawed in areas such as (but not limited to):
- Representation of women
- Representation of non-Caucasian people
- Representation of gay people

The criticisms that were valid then are still valid now. It just doesn't come up as much. I guess when we talk about FFVII we tend to be having a discussion of particular game mechanics or story aspects, not an analysis of media within our culture. When those conversations do happen these days (such as right now) there tend to be more contemporary examples to talk about, so why bring up something from 15 years ago?

[Vyk]

Eh, I thought Rikku's sexualization was more than enough in the first game, when she bends over and pulls her pants down in front of you upon your first reunion with her. And they decided that was, in fact, not enough, and sexualized her MORE in the second game. Which I opted NOT to buy. Yes. It was a problem back then, too

And just because people eventually break down and buy (or even enjoy) a game that recieves criticism, isn't necessarily an endorsement that the person approves of every artistic choice that was made for that game's development. Sadly, it rarely works out like that

I was offended and insulted by the art in Dragon's Crown. And it wasn't just the women in that game. It was damn near everything. But I still rented it and played it with my girlfriend. The gameplay was grand, and we'd probably still buy it from a discount bin. And we'd definitely still roll our eyes at the art style whenever the amazon/valkyrie chick went on display to jiggle her boobs and rub herself all over the treasure we'd find

In that scenario though, it's like your racist grandpa. You know there's nothing you can do to change him. You accept everything else that's good about him, and openly disapprove of the worst parts about him so nobody thinks you're endorsing his attitude, and life just goes on. But it is NOT perfect

Edit: I agree with Fox_. I think it's a tad more relevant, that they JUST made this decision. Rather than wasting time lambasting them for decisions they made 10 - 15 years ago

[Shorty]

It's getting quite heated in this thread. Let's tone it down a bit, thanks.

[chionos]

Also, I think part of the issue with this one is that they took a precedent and changed it in a sexual way because the gender changed. Cid was USUALLY an older, not super attractive guy. Now because Cid is a woman, she's suddenly overly sexy and aged down like 20 years. I know I would personally be reacting differently if they made most of the male Cid's young and sexy and then made a female Cid that way. It would be like "Well, yeah, that's Cid."

This is the crux of the issue, clearly (and I'm not sure how so many people can't see it), though I am definitely of the opinion that the fact there's not a clearly defined definition for "sexy" or "sexualized" means we can't really get anywhere resembling an agreement.

Because while I believe Cidney is certainly a sexualized character (and unnecessarily so) and is evidence of sexism in video games (or in this case specifically the Final Fantasy franchise), those who think that males in Final Fantasy aren't sexualized are blind or straight up lying to themselves.

I also think that anyone who ignores the differences between what the average female finds sexy or sexual in a male character and what the average male finds sexy or sexual in a female character will never understand the truth about the situation and furthermore will never be able to change anything.

Comparing revealed skin percentage doesn't work. Comparing female chest bulge to male crotch bulge doesn't work.

Again, I'm pretty comfortable saying that Cidney is a sexualized character because that outfit is just ridiculous. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any other Final Fantasy character. That's where this discussion breaks down. There are sexualized male and female Final Fantasy characters. There are non-sexualized male and female Final Fantasy characters. None of that changes a single thing regarding what's been done with Cidney.

I think it's neat that Cid's been gender-flipped, but I also think this is kind of a lame way to go about it. Non-playable and nothing to do with the story? I'm disappointed. I also do not like the eye color. Sadly, everything about the character is leaving me kind of meh.



And also as for Penelo, I personally find her one of the more attractive FF characters, and while I would say her clothing isn't the most modest (I mean you'd have to be sewn in to that thing its so tight) it certainly isn't one of the more revealing anyways. Which also makes me wonder why sometimes we can't just make characters sexy without showing off everything. Or maybe different types of sexy. Not saying it never happens, again, just talking about the general.

As you said, it does happen. There are different types of sexy all over Final Fantasy. Balthier is a great example. For all that physically attractive is a relative state, the other elements of attraction are even more relative or even arbitrary.


But there are ways to do that without making them walking sex objects.

That's where Cidney seems (from what we know so far, which is, to be fair, less than we should before we started speculating, but oh well) to be different from other FF characters. Distinct from other sexualized FF characters like Lulu, who was overtly sex-objectified, but also had a full personality apart from her "boobexual" moments (bending over after battle, etc.) Again, maybe Cidney will have more of a personality than is implied by her role as a non-playable character that has nothing to do with the story. As it stands, she may well end up being the most sexist version of a character in FF's history. And then again, she might not. I really hope Cid's first foray in a female shell turns out to be deeper than it looks, though.

[Hannibal_Khan]

Originally Posted by Jinxie Poo http://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3494498#post3494498)
I did say that that THE FACT THAT THIS IS A DROP IN THE POND IS A PROBLEM.

I've stated from the beginning that my issue was with the criticism Cid's outfit was receiving, in relation to other FF outfits in the series. Not about any other games and/or media. Go back and read my post Jixie. That why I was "purposley ignoring" those statements. I had already answered that I was not debating whether or not a majority of women are sexually objectified throughout the media.


Originally Posted by Jinxie Poo http://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3494498#post3494498) HER OUTFIT IS ONLY THERE TO OBJECTIFY

You say this, but you know almost nothing about her character. Characters in the past have worn revealing outfit's but still have been great characters. Why can't the same be true for her?

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Jinxie Poohttp://home.eyesonff.com/images/images_15/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=3494498#post3494498) HER OUTFIT IS ONLY THERE TO OBJECTIFY

You say this, but you know almost nothing about her character. Characters in the past have worn revealing outfit's but still have been great characters. Why can't the same be true for her?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Go back to Rikku from X-2. I think she was a very good character! Now how much of the goodness of her character existed "because she's in a bikini?" Approximately 0%. Bikini or business suit, her character remains the same.

The bikini was chosen just to make guys lust after her. Which is pretty much the definition of sexual objectification.

[Spooniest]

So take out full page ads in all the newspapers in Japan saying you're pissed about this, picket the release of the game, do something.

I just can't stand it when there's all this suspense built up by the discussion of a problem and no solution. :( It's because I watched too many movies as a kid, I bet

[Fox]

Discussion on the subject is the solution.

- Publisher does something stupid
- Gets bad press
- Thinks twice before doing it next time.

And, you know, talking about character depictions on video game forums? Surprisingly useful in itself. Because where do the next generation of game developers spend their internet time in their youth? Right here.

[Mirage]

@spooniest Maybe someone will. Maybe someone at SE will notice the online controversy and make the developers aware of it. I know this is SE we're talking about, but there have been examples of other businesses responding to internet stuff in various ways. Like Bamco overreacted and removed a character from the US release of T7.

Also before someone says something about it. Fox' "right here" might be a general "here", as in "online message boards", not this forum in particular.

[Vyk]

Yeah. Getting bent out of shape doesn't really solve anything, but it feels better to vent at least. Plus the venting happens all over the internet. Media sources sometimes pick it up, and it becomes a thing. Sometimes even a phenomenon. Sometimes it forces change. Or at the very least gets noticed and attention. But whatever. We probably mostly just want to vent and hope they wake up and do better next time. Or surprise us and prove us wrong this time

[Psychotic]

Square-Enix is aware of Eyes on Final Fantasy and they almost certainly have some poor intern crawling internet forums like ours (and the big boys like NeoGAF and reddit etc) and a thread like this is going to make that intern sit up and take notice. Hi intern, by the way, how's it shaking?

The intern will then report the trends and online reactions to someone who will say "Great work!" and promptly put their report into a shredder and Square-Enix will carry on doing what they're doing irregardless. Sorry to make you feel bad about your job, intern person.

[Mirage]

You know, even a thing where she wears a coverall zipped all the way up when she works and unzips a bit when she's done because it gets hot would be better than what we have now.

[Del Murder]

You know, even a thing where she wears a coverall zipped all the way up when she works and unzips a bit when she's done because it gets hot would be better than what we have now.
Hell, that could be a mini game.

[Mirage]

seriously though, if they're gonna keep those clothes, they need to give her the most terrible skin ever seen in final fantasy.


Here's an actual question:
Does her appearance sell more games? Do you think people who are not interested in FF15 will now buy the game because she has her tits out in a skimpy outfit? Do you think guys will actually seriously rate the game higher because of her tits? This is 2015. If you're horny you pause whatever game you're playing, open a new tab and start writing redt...

If it doesn't sell more games, which i seriously don't think it will, I don't see anything other than a potential slight drop in sales because of certain people who's finally just had enough of this sort of thing. Nothing "personal" towards FF15, that might just happen to be the game that finally caused them to actually take a stand, after seeing tons of other games doing the same thing before it.

So from a business point of view, what's the point? Why do it? Why not make her look more tasteful to both male and female customers?

[Tyson]

seriously though, if they're gonna keep those clothes, they need to give her the most terrible skin ever seen in final fantasy.


Here's an actual question:
Does her appearance sell more games? Do you think people who are not interested in FF15 will now buy the game because she has her tits out in a skimpy outfit? Do you think guys will actually seriously rate the game higher because of her tits? This is 2015. If you're horny you pause whatever game you're playing, open a new tab and start writing redt...

If it doesn't sell more games, which i seriously don't think it will, I don't see anything other than a potential slight drop in sales because of certain people who's finally just had enough of this sort of thing. Nothing "personal" towards FF15, that might just happen to be the game that finally caused them to actually take a stand, after seeing tons of other games doing the same thing before it.

So from a business point of view, what's the point? Why do it? Why not make her look more tasteful to both male and female customers?

Subconsiously yes, I think it will sell copies. Us FF fans are buying regardless but to the more casual gamer I think it will peak there interest.

Hell I've seen pictures of Cidney posted all over gaming news sites and even by some facebook pages that don't have anything to do with gaming. Sex does sell. Its the reason they stuck Lightning on the cover of XIII even tho every other cover beforehand was just the logo (I'm still sore about that :/)

[Mirage]

Most customers who aren't already into Final Fantasy aren't going to know about her existence prior to buying it. Most customers don't even spend a lot of time on online gaming sites. I don't think it's going to push any more copies than they will lose by people who dislike it.

People who are already into it but sit on the fence aren't going to be like "wow look at that rack that i might see like a few times over the course of 50 hours. Definitely getting it now, yup. Not even subconsciously. Half-dressed women isn't a scarce commodity on the internet. People aren't going to buy a 60 buck game for it.

for the record, sex doesn't sell all that much, at least not for advertisements

Sex catches attention, but that doesn't mean it sells.

[Fox]

To be fair I don't think the business side of it came into it anywhere. Somebody came up with an idea to make a character called Cidney. Whoever did either gave a brief to the character designer or let them do what they liked. One of those decided how to dress her, and when her design was presented to the rest of the team nobody objected (or, if they did, they were shot down). Most likely they aren't attempting to 'get more sales using sexy ladies,' someone creative just made an instinctive decision without really thinking about it, and here we are.

It's a super easy thing to do. On the last game I worked on, the player could choose from a list of audio names that they would be referred to by the game. When I joined the project there weren't any female names. There was no malice in there, just ignorance - it was a team of 95% dudes making a game they just assumed would only be played by other dudes. And I'm sure if we looked at the sales demographics that would end up being the case. Still, we got the female names included in the end. It didn't harm the game in any way. If even one woman played it and got to use her name, I think it was a worthwhile effort.

But if nobody along the pipeline gives it the thought... that's how this happens so often.

[Spooniest]

The project director (name escapes me) is likely in total apocalyptic crunch mode right now. I wouldn't advise memo'ing him on the subject. :) This game has been in the works for 8 years already, after all.

[Shlup]

No one's saying she has to be ugly, just that her outfit is stupid.
To be fair, I agree with this much. I don't mind it being stupid because I'm a typical guy who has no issue looking at boobs. On the flipside, I don't mind if girls want to sexualise men, either. And I say this despite considering myself rather unattractive in appearance. I just don't see a problem with sexualising in general so long as it's being done in a fictional world, and it's being done to both genders. I imagine Cidney is dressed to titilate and I'm okay with that.
I appreciate that you can acknowledge the outfit is stupid, but to say that's okay with you because you "don't mind" shows me that you are choosing to ignore all the negative impacts this kind of gender inequality and over sexualization of females has on society. The videos I posted list quite a few, and I've mentioned several times that we are so used to seeing women as sexual objects that both men and women view men as whole people and women as the sum of their parts. I mean, you're entitled to not mind something that seems pretty smurfed up if you want... It's pretty likely you'll realize these issues matter when you have a daughter. And, no, that doesn't mean you have to be a huge advocate for social change, but navigating gender stereotypes as a parent is really hard, and being vocal does help. I do not want my daughter to think she must be pretty to be of value, which is a very well documented issue with women in our society, far more than with men.



Because you want to be one of "those people" who says "Hey, it's not my responsibility to care," even though caring costs you very little. Like, literally all I'm doing is saying is "that outfit is stupid" but that's just too much effort for Daniel!
To be fair, I joined the conversation long after it was simply "This outfit is stupid." :shobon:
Okay, fine, literally all I require of you is to say "This outfit is stupid and that's a bad thing."



Hell, the only reason we're even having this conversation is because, as soon as one person made a small comment criticizing the outfit, people had to come in to be sure everyone understood that sexual objectification is totally no big deal. I don't understand the motivation. Is the idea that women should be displayed for your sexual pleasure maybe a little less frequently threatening somehow? I don't think that's the case but it's all I can think of.
It's not the case, I'm just saying that I don't think it's automatically a problem the first moment we see a girl who has her rack on display. I mean, if you live in a hot climate, this kind of thing happens. It happened in NZ all the time, I saw it in America while I was there, Menorca had it in droves, hell, the girls in Sweden and even Scotland do it sometimes. This is a Thing That Happens. Sure, they picked the most ridiculous character to do it with, but then, this is Square Enix and that's par for the course - girls and guys alike. If a guy has a sexy look with his shirt open to show off his chest and abs, dressed in about as sexy clothes as you can dress a guy in, nobody blinks. Girls - because of historic reasons - jump onto the girl with the rack out. I get that, but I do think that SE are actually pretty fair. Which brings us to...!
It's not that her rack is on display. I display my rack. My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times. To reiterate: The first female Cid is the first sexy Cid. And not just because her boobs. They're just just uncovered, they're pushed up and out and on display. And her belly is out. And her buttcheeks are peekin'. And she's wearing thigh-high smurf me boots. And she's supposed to be... a mechanic?? I mean, if she were doing her work and then took off her coveralls to reveal some sexy casual clothes, I would not be nearly as irritated.



Attractive males: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 29
Unattractive males: |||||||||||||||| 16
Attractive females: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25
Unattractive females: ||| 3
Three? Really? You're not even counting Penelo? >_>; And who are all these unattractive males!? I'd like to see the breakdown of this list someday. :p I might even go through the list myself and state who I think is attractive and who I think is unattractive. In the end, personal perspective makes a big difference. I could even include sexy, but it's hard for me to define sexy in a man without assistance. :S I can only go by the "This is what girls find sexy... right?" kind of method if I'm doing it on my own. Basch wins, by the way. ;) But seriously, more than anything the note of too few elderly ladies raised my eyebrow. I never really think of the guys as that elderly but I guess there are a few. Were they mostly in the older games? I wish they'd bring in more elderly characters (not geriatric, but you get the idea) in modern FF's.
Obviously what each individual person finds "attractive" is subjective, but if they were adult, physically fit, and not too non-human-like I considered them "attractive." I wanted to err on your side so I included characters whose face you don't really see (Shadow) and middle aged men (Auron, Sazh and... I forget his name) as attractive. Penelo is attractive; don't be a dumbass. Just because you don't like her hair and outfit doesn't make her an unattractive person. Make the list yourself if you want; it didn't take me very long. You may change a couple of people, but there is just no possibility of the percentages nearing "fair and equal."

Yes, the elder playable males are in the older games. I also wouldn't consider the female characters in the older games sexually objectified, for the record, even in their more revealing outfits. Skin showing doesn't mean sexualized--I find Celes and Terra's outfits whimsical. Who's the oldest playable female character? Lulu at 22?

P.S. You owe me a "You were so right, Shlup. I'm sorry for being hella daft."


Like I say - I don't mind sexualising of fictional characters. I simply don't. I don't know what more to say on that. Goes for guys and girls. I do have a problem with people saying "This is what you should wear in the real world" but thankfully I never do that to anyone and I have no problem with girls in the real world wearing whatever the hell they want, and do my best to never judge them for it. ...with the possible exception of Lady Gaga. Don't wear meat. =|
I liked the meat dress. It looked delicious.

In the interim, I encourage you to continue to consider the effects of how women are portrayed by the media, even fictional ones. I assume your children will learn to read by playing Final Fantasy. When they're playing young men and old men and cat men and beautiful young girls and beautiful young girls and beautiful young girls with giant titties and beautiful young girls and a fat guy, what message does that ingrain in them? Sexualization aside even. What message does that send about the value of men as individuals versus the value of women as individuals?


Anyway, to summarise the tl;dr of it all... :sleepy:

Things we seemingly don't agree on...
- That it's okay to sexualise an individual character for no other reason than to sexualise that individual character.
- That guys get sexualised about as much as they can be.
- That more old girls or "unattractive" people in general could be a very good thing for Final Fantasy.
- More body shapes within Final Fantasy would be a nice thing.
- That Final Fantasy should change to compensate for the rest of the industry, who are often considerably worse offenders.
Wait, you don't think I thing that a wider range of character types (looks, age, bodytype) is something I agree with or it's something you don't agree with? I also don't feel Final Fantasy has a responsibility to compensate for anyone. It's everyone's responsibility to treat sexuality with respect. Excluding maybe porn; I don't have a problem with actual porn as a rule.

I definitely disagree with you on the first two though. Especially the second one. For your second point you are being very daft.


Things I believe and am not sure if you agree on...
- That you shouldn't sexualise one gender if you're not going to sexualise the other one, too.
- That almost every guy in modern Final Fantasy has an attractive "fit/healthy" body type (ie, no fatties, although a couple of skinnies are probably in there like Hope).
- That guys get absurd outfits too in Final Fantasy.
- Sometimes the above happens for the sake of sexualisation over any relevant reasoning.
Most people in media are fit regardless of gender, yes. The gap between how the genders are treated is still extreme though. I agree that Final Fantasy has some absurd outfits all around, though I can't think of any except maybe Gladiolus who are supposed to be actually sexy. And it's just an open shirt. No low-cut jeans or happy trail peeking out or big bulge in his pants. Many of the men are sexy, just like many of the women are sexy by nature of being attractive, but none of them are dressed in a way specifically to display their bodies for my sexual pleasure aside from maybe one open shirt. Showing skin is not, in and of itself, sexua


Things I'm pretty sure we agree on!
- The Cidney outfit is absurd and stupid for the job she is in.
- It does sexualise her, and that is probably the intention of the outfit.
- Video games in general sexualise females far more than they sexualise males, which is not a good thing.
- Film and media do this too.
Yes.


Wowzers this thread got out of control. I don't get the big deal really. She is very reminiscent of Rikku, who also dressed similarly even tho it didn't fit her job description. This is Final Fantasy for gods sake.

It's like complaining about Noctis's hair as it's unrealistic you'd want hair that long while swinging a sword around. Do we want everything to be 100% logical and PC in a JRPG? If you want that your probably better looking for a western RPG like Mass Effect.

This whole thing is very reminiscent of what just happened with the new Tekken game. The new character Lucky Chloe was announced (cleavage, pigtails, kawaii anime girl personality) and the western audience lost there trout. The game director eventually responded by saying on twitter "Hello small world. I'll make muscular & skinhead character for you"

Kind of a sharp dig at the western audience but I loved his response. Us westerners are so obsessed with making everything politically correct that we're stifling creativity. You create a character like Aerith and people complain that women shouldn't have to be seen as virginal or 'pure' So instead you create a confident female character that isn't afraid to show off her body but then you're being exploitive.....
We've pointed this out more than once, but I'll address you specifically. You are making the argument here that "this kind of sexual treatment of women is normal," which is exactly our complaint.

I will add, however, that I really disagree with you that it's stifling creativity. Consider how easy it is to think "We want to attract an audience. People like looking at sexy ladies. Let's add sexy ladies." Think of how easy it is to think "The character needs motivation. Kidnap the girl he likes." Those things are easy. They are cliche. They are lazy. The point is to challenge the media to work beyond lazy cliches. Make dynamic characters. Make interesting stories. Relying on sexualizing women to sell their art isn't creativity--it's cheap pandering. And it's harmful. The effects of these types of things are well documented, and they're bad for both genders.


People seem perfectly comfortable to discard the ethnocentrism argument out of hand.

Achievement: Made forum uncomfortable!
Honestly, I just don't care what country the game was made in. But you did remind me to add "country of origin" to my project.


I never said that I didn't "believe" the information. Neither did I call Ms. Heldman's credential's or credibility into question. I simply stated that the video you cited was not some kind of irrefutable scientific evidence that supports your claim the way you are presenting it to be. Sorry if you think i'm just being a stickler, or a "pedant"(you really searched your lexicon for that one, huh? lol I had to google it, but it's now my new favorite word of the day, so thank you) but, you know, Scientific Method and such(you should google this, maybe?). It's just kinda how my brain operate's.
"Nobody likes a pedant" is a common phrase in casual debate, I think. At least in my experience. I apologize; I didn't intend to make you Google anything.

Do you believe Dr. Heldman is presenting her factual findings based on the scientific method or not? If not, you are literally telling me you don't believe the information and calling Dr. Heldman's credibility into question. If so, then, fine, you believe Dr. Heldman analyzed media in 2010 and found that 96% of sexualized imagery was of female bodies. Now, do you believe that's relevant?


Here, you are directly implying that I'm some kinda of misogynist or something. Literally just one paragraph before claiming that you haven't. Also, claiming that I was dismissing Ms. Heldman's credibility is also implying that I am sexist/misogynist(because obviously i'm only doing that because she is a woman). And I don't appreciate that.
You are assuming that I'm saying these things because you're male and Dr. Heldman and I are female. There is no reason for you to assume that.


Seriously, are you confusing me with someone else? I never said; "female characters aren't oversexualized all that much". Nor did I say that oversexualizing female characters was consistent in FF games. I said, "Cid's outfit isn't inconsistent with how other FF characters are portrayed". You deemed it sexually objective, not me. HAHA I am also now thoroughly annoyed with the term "sexual objectification" as it is certainly a subjective matter.
I misunderstood you then, primarily because the notion that Cidney's outfit isn't sexually objectifying is telling me the sky is green.


Now i'm not going to call you "dense", the way you have to other's on this thread(quite rudely, I might add), because I know that your not(and I don't need to try and talk down to people in an attempt to get my point across). Your simply highly charged on the issue of the sexual objectification of girls/women, as well you should be, but no one on here is on the other side of that issue. But you do seem to be only hearing what you want to hear, as is evident in your multiple misquotes of me(but, hey, at least you were consistent with that).
The thing about having friends is you don't have to sugarcoat things. I'm not going to defend telling my friends they're being dense when they're being dense.

And, yes, people are on the other side of that issue. People have stated that men and women are sexualized equally, that Cidney's outfit isn't sexually objectifying, and that, even though most people agree that the media at large sexualized women far more than men, that it's not something to be concerned over. That even criticizing it somehow stifles the creativity of "artists" lazily pandering.

I'll just ignore your last part. There's no point if you can't even acknowledge that Cidney's outfit isn't sexually objectifying.


Hey Shlup, what about Relm (10) Krile (14) and Rikku (15) you dirty old woman
Ah... I counted Relm as attractive. I am trout. I was going quickly and using Amano artwork as my guide; totally glossed over Relm being a kid. Krile is... borderline? And Rikku is clearly jailbait. Even if you were to list all three as unattractive that wouldn't equal things out though.


This also has relevance to the Tedtalk Shulp cited. Most the images Ms. Heldman's used a examples of sexualy objectified women seem to be coming from fashion magazines. Now I might be wrong here, but if i'm not mistaken those are majority women in those editorial rooms deciding what goes into those magazines, which are mainly marketed towards women.
The video addresses that very plainly.


And to the people saying, "Cid's outfit doesn't look like a mechanic outfit", I say yes it does. It looks like a sexy mechanic outfit. It's almost like this game is a "Fantasy based on reality". hmm why does that sound familiar?

It's Final Fantasy! It literally has Fantasy in the title. And like Bob said previously, most character's in FF are portrayed as beautiful(except for villains, of course, who are probably disproportionately older, white-men.)
Yes, it's an unrealistically sexy mechanics' outfit designed to sexualize the character. You are, again, kind of proving my point here... In the fantasy world, the men are powerful and the ladies are nice to look at. "It literally has Fantasy in the title," yes. In the fantasy world, this is how we treat men and women.


And then their's deviant.art, where there are some truly great artist(and people) who often do something very natural......... They depict our beloved FF character's in very sexually explicit ways. Are they wrong for doing this? Should we all apologize for our sex drives now?
I have no intention of getting between people and their porn.


I still find Cid's outfit tame compared to other character's outfits, but yet I've never heard this level of criticism for those character's. Is her outfit gratuitous? sure. But is it egregious? nope. fairly consistent with the rest of the title's, IMO. Everyone on this thread knew what to expect when it comes to these games.
I don't agree with either of your points. I don't feel her outfit is consistent, it seems to me to be far more extreme than almost any character (Yunalesca being the exception), and other characters have received a lot of criticism. Tifa, Rikku, and FFX-2 Yuna. Lulu's massive rack. I didn't even participate in those discussions and I remember the criticism they got.





Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

yunalesca. And Tifa, imo. I still don't get why people are acting like cleavage is new.
Just because it isn't new doesn't mean it's fine. I hope I don't have to make a list over things that used to be fine but aren't anymore.
So cleavage isn't fine? why not? And as posted earlier, I've been a FF fan for many years, and have been active on this particular forum for several months but have never heard these criticism's levied on the older title's character's. It seems like up until 2 days ago, this was never really an issue for the people on these boards. So what's changed?
Again, it's not the cleavage. It's the boobs being pushed up and out and presented, the middriff, the hot pants, the smurf me boots, and... working on machinery. Also that combined with Cidney being the first female Cid, and comparing her to the treatment of other Cid's. Also women in general being treated as sex objects far more than men. It's all of those things.

Also, the "this isn't new" is, again and again, a big part of the problem. As for, this "never being an issue before," the other games mentioned are older. Those discussions have passed for the most part. They also don't have the precedent of a lineage of non-sexy male Cids to compare them to, and their sexy outfits weren't in blatant contrast to what would make sense for their professions quite as much as Cidney's is. It's not that everyone just let the other things go... I mean, do you expect there to be a currently active decade old thread about it? I'm confused what you're expecting here. Raistlin wrote a series on sexism in games fairly recently, actually. Sexism in games is being discussed constantly. Do you want us to hold a weekly "Let's talk about Tifa's boobs" meeting or something?



Also, I think part of the issue with this one is that they took a precedent and changed it in a sexual way because the gender changed. Cid was USUALLY an older, not super attractive guy. Now because Cid is a woman, she's suddenly overly sexy and aged down like 20 years. I know I would personally be reacting differently if they made most of the male Cid's young and sexy and then made a female Cid that way. It would be like "Well, yeah, that's Cid."

This is the crux of the issue, clearly (and I'm not sure how so many people can't see it), though I am definitely of the opinion that the fact there's not a clearly defined definition for "sexy" or "sexualized" means we can't really get anywhere resembling an agreement.
I agree that this is perhaps the crux of the issue. That and that she's supposed to be a mechanic.


Because while I believe Cidney is certainly a sexualized character (and unnecessarily so) and is evidence of sexism in video games (or in this case specifically the Final Fantasy franchise), those who think that males in Final Fantasy aren't sexualized are blind or straight up lying to themselves.
Show me one example of a male character as sexually on display as Cidney. Every item in her outfit is specifically designed to display a different part of her body, and it's not to show off her strength. Describe to me what makes them a sexualized character.


I also think that anyone who ignores the differences between what the average female finds sexy or sexual in a male character and what the average male finds sexy or sexual in a female character will never understand the truth about the situation and furthermore will never be able to change anything.

Comparing revealed skin percentage doesn't work. Comparing female chest bulge to male crotch bulge doesn't work.
You're ignoring centuries of socialization.

Also, you don't think women are into crotch bulges? You want to balance out how men and women are sexualized in the media, we can talk about increasing crotch bulges. Consider how many women in games have massive titties. Now imagine the same percentage of male characters you had the option to play had a bulge indicating he was carrying a can of Monster energy drink in his pants. And sometimes the developers put the time and effort into making it bounce and sway when he moved.


You say this, but you know almost nothing about her character. Characters in the past have worn revealing outfit's but still have been great characters. Why can't the same be true for her?
I know someone else addressed this, but I know I already have stated that it's entirely possible I'll like her character in spite of her ridiculous outfit. It adds nothing to the character but eye candy, and, as I've stated repeatedly, it's lazy pandering at the expense of an already sexually marginalized group, but we are all capable of liking things in spite of having criticisms. Think of the thing you like the most in the world--there is something you can criticize about it. I love my daughter, but I can acknowledge that she is lazy as hell without damaging my love for her. I can acknowledge that Tifa's boobs are painful to look at and still really like that character. The same may (or may not, dunno yet) be true for Cidney. She can still be a great character, though there is no way for them to justify that outfit. If I like her, it will be in spite of the outfit.

[Spooniest]

May I pose a practical question?

Are we gonna change the name of the thread to "Final Fantasy XV: Cid looks like a lady?"

[Hannibal_Khan]

@chionos,


though I am definitely of the opinion that the fact there's not a clearly defined definition for "sexy" or "sexualized" means we can't really get anywhere resembling an agreement.

So we are in agreement on this at least :D.

But you also said that previous FF's are not relevant to discussion of Cid's attire, and with that, I disagree. Why should this character be held to a different standard? You say, "her outfit is just ridiculous", but I believe in the context of this game, her outfit is actually less ridiculous than Gladiolus.

Are they both sexually objectified? yes, equally so IMO(appearance wise). Is sexual objectification categorically wrong? I don't believe so. Humans are inherently sexual creature's. And sexual objectification does not equal sexism.

We've seen 3 female characters so far, Luna, Stella and Cidney. The first two are dressed modestly, which seems right b/c they may be royalty or something. Cidney works at a gas station garage. Her outfit, to me, seems to jive with her character. And is not inconsistent with the artistic license Square has taken with previous character design's for the series. Which, I am okay with. Nor do I see her outfit as "evidence of sexism". Should the creator's not have the creative license to make the character according to their artistic vision? Should their vision be censored because of this culture's current P.C. dogma? Why are so many, so quick to dismiss her as nothing more than "male fan-service", with ,what every one musts admit is a very small sample size of information, simply b/c of her outfit?





The two are not mutually exclusive. Go back to Rikku from X-2. I think she was a very good character! Now how much of the goodness of her character existed "because she's in a bikini?" Approximately 0%. Bikini or business suit, her character remains the same.

That's your opinion that it didn't add any thing. For me, it did. That's just my sexuality in play, I geuss, and I wont apologize for that. I enjoyed her as a character, in fact, she was my favorite of X-2. I thought she had the best personality/funniest, and she also looked hot in that outfit. Am I not supposed to say this? Am I not allowed to comprehend complex character and story development while also enjoying seeing a very good looking woman?


The bikini was chosen just to make guys lust after her. Which is pretty much the definition of sexual objectification.

Any proof of this? Link with quote's from the designer....? No. Then this is just another opinion. Most of characters in FF are aesthetically good looking, regardless of gender. This is Final Fantasy game. I say keep the real world dogma outta my fantasy adventure.

[Fox]

Any proof of this? Link with quote's from the designer....? No. Then this is just another opinion.

Just like I have no proof that the execs of a major bank are trying to make money. Is that really all you'll accept? A quote from a guy saying "Yes well, we wanted to reduce Rikku to her sexual organs so that all our horny teenaged fans would have something to drool over. I think it really added a lot of nuance to her character."

If you have any alternative viable hypotheses, be my guest. Hey, perhaps it was satire, right?


Most of characters in FF are aesthetically good looking, regardless of gender. This is Final Fantasy game. I say keep the real world dogma outta my fantasy adventure.

Are you really trying to tell me your idea of 'Fantasy' is to disproportionately reduce women to sexual objects? If so, how I envy that your fantasies are so well catered for in the current market.

[Loony BoB]

I appreciate that you can acknowledge the outfit is stupid, but to say that's okay with you because you "don't mind" shows me that you are choosing to ignore all the negative impacts this kind of gender inequality and over sexualization of females has on society.
This is not the case, I just don't think that Final Fantasy is the trigger for that kind of thing, nor do I think that having a sexualised character is a bad thing.


Okay, fine, literally all I require of you is to say "This outfit is stupid and that's a bad thing."
This outfit is stupid and that's a bad thing... in some people's perspective, but not mine. I don't care if an outfit is sexualised and/or stupid. I stopped caring about stupid outfits a long time ago. I think Lady Gaga wears stupid outfits every day and I don't care. As for sexualisation, I disagree that real people should be sexualised unless it's their personal desire to be sexualised. And even then, when I don't know the person in question personally, I always wonder if there was any manipulation of coercing. I am immediately suspicious of any young pop star being treated appropriately when they are dancing around in sexy outfits. But it's out of my control, and for all I know they ARE wanting to do that. So it's their decision. I dislike sexualising in advertisements in particular, though. Unless it's advertising something that is inherently sexual (and things like perfume do NOT count). Even in that case, it should be done in mags that are PG or something, not on billboards.

But in fiction in general, I don't mind it. For me, fiction is something that allows you to immerse yourself in a fantasy world. Sometimes that might be really ugly, sometimes it's full of gorgeous people. I don't think females get unfair treatment in Final Fantasy in this regard. I am pretty sure I disagree with your assessment of males - and females - in Final Fantasy, because I literally don't think Penelo is attractive. She strikes me as really nerdy. Everything about her struck me that way. She also struck me as dull. Sure, she has a spotless face, but I don't think she was attractive just because she had a certain body shape and no zits. Thankfully I'm not that shallow.


It's not that her rack is on display. I display my rack. My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times. To reiterate: The first female Cid is the first sexy Cid. And not just because her boobs. They're just just uncovered, they're pushed up and out and on display. And her belly is out. And her buttcheeks are peekin'. And she's wearing thigh-high smurf me boots. And she's supposed to be... a mechanic?? I mean, if she were doing her work and then took off her coveralls to reveal some sexy casual clothes, I would not be nearly as irritated.
Well, duh. But she was being sexualised. Of course they're going to make her dress sexy if that's the case (although again, I'm unsure how much of that was the intent, and how much of it was the intent to gain sales of certain girl's jackets, hot pants and thigh high boots for some random Japanese clothes line).


Obviously what each individual person finds "attractive" is subjective, but if they were adult, physically fit, and not too non-human-like I considered them "attractive." I wanted to err on your side so I included characters whose face you don't really see (Shadow) and middle aged men (Auron, Sazh and... I forget his name) as attractive.
Firstly, I consider someone attractive if I consider them attractive, not if they meet certain criteria. That's what "attractive" is, subjective. As for your criteria, I'm still a bit confused. You say you found 16 male characters that were not physically fit, not adults (surely more girls in this game are underage than guys?), and were basically human. So, I can think of... Vivi, Red XIII and Kimahri - all of which are fair play. But once you get to humans - the ones that ladies and men of the world can actually compare themselves to - the guys are pretty much all fit, aren't they? And obviously all human. That leaves adult, and I'd be surprised (but would hold my hands up) if there were more guys than girls. I still find it absurd to consider every fit adult human attractive, though. xD

Just browsing the list from VII onwards (I find myself incapable of looking at little pixely FFI-VI characters and seriously considering how sexy they are or are not... same for Chibis in IX), I found one fat guy. Ward. Every other character (excepting blatantly-not-human characters for the pre-mentioned reason of human people not comparing their own bodies to them) was a fit teen or adult, both female and male. One or two were underage. Unless all those unattractive males were flooding the old games of I-VI - and perhaps IX where it can get really debatable because... chibi - I'm just not seeing the big obvious unfairness when it comes to which gender is being sexualised. VII, VIII, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIII-2, LR, XIV. Even Crisis Core. They all do it fairly. I personally think IX is done fairly too, because I just can't bring myself to see chibis as sexualised. It doesn't compute in my head. Even if you do, you have... tails to consider, and people who are black blobs with eyes, and rat-people, and people in full armour, and Quina, and bratty kids, and... you get the idea. xD


Wait, you don't think I thing that a wider range of character types (looks, age, bodytype) is something I agree with or it's something you don't agree with? I also don't feel Final Fantasy has a responsibility to compensate for anyone. It's everyone's responsibility to treat sexuality with respect. Excluding maybe porn; I don't have a problem with actual porn as a rule.
I may have put that on the wrong list. xD I think we both agree more body shapes would be a nice thing.


I definitely disagree with you on the first two though. Especially the second one. For your second point you are being very daft.
See chionos' post. :shobon: Same for the next paragraph you put in, about how there is only one guy who is sexualised because he has an open shirt. I would love to hear from a large group of people who consider themselves to be bisexual to describe what outfits they consider sexy on a guy and then on a girl. I suspect they will not markedly different - in my experience, this is the case, anyway. Girls are generally seen as having a sexy appearance if they are fit and dress skimpy. Guys, if they go around wearing nothing but underwear and showing off their full body, don't tend to get the same treatment. Again, I asked Danielle what she considered sexy on a guy - the "most sexualised" a guy could be for her - and she said showing chest and/or abs (but with a shirt or jacket of some kind) and with some jeans or something on. Bikini top? Hot pants? "No." xD The problem is that the clothes guys are considered to be at their sexiest in tend to be normal clothes. Suits. T-shirt and jeans. Stuff like that. Girls, on the other hand, are seen as sexy in these things, but also seen as sexy in a bikini, or seen as sexy in a low cut top, or seen as sexy in a skirt, thigh high boots, turtlenecks even. A nice dress. Effectively girls tend to be seen as sexy - appearance-wise, obviously - in a much wider variety of clothing, and in some cases it is considered extremely sexy, while guys don't get that kind of thing. That's possibly unfair, but it's just the way people are in a large number of cultures, certainly the ones we live in, in the current world.

For what it's worth, I agree with you on Rikku being blatantly sexualised when you replied to Psy. So freakin' obvious. Krile is wearing clothese appropriate for her age in today's culture. I wouldn't say she is borderline in anything other than "could be at the age when puberty is kicking in and therefore her body is developing in to what some people may mistake for 16 or 18 and therefore consider her sexually attractive" - but she's pixels so idgaf. xD Relm is clearly a kid in every way. But, again, pixels. All the game is pixels. And clearly not sexual.

Oh, you replied to chionos. Goody.


Also, you don't think women are into crotch bulges? You want to balance out how men and women are sexualized in the media, we can talk about increasing crotch bulges. Consider how many women in games have massive titties. Now imagine the same percentage of male characters you had the option to play had a bulge indicating he was carrying a can of Monster energy drink in his pants. And sometimes the developers put the time and effort into making it bounce and sway when he moved.
I... have been told by many girls that they do NOT find penises attractive, nor do they find tight clothing in the penis area attractive. Bulges get giggled at on occasion (Olly Murs being the prime example I can think of) but yeah, when I ask for a list fo things girls find sexiest about guys, crotch bulges are generally quite far down the list, below facial features, butt, abs, chest, arms, hands and even "nice calves" which always surprises me. Veeery rare I hear about girls wanting more crotch bulge.

Crotch bulges don't bounce and sway to my knowledge. xD But I do get the point you were making. I agree that boobs bouncing and swaying is a bit much in video games including Final Fantasy, although at the same time I know at least one big boobed girl (not saying who) that was delighted at a certain game including bouncing boobs because they hated how 'static' boobs were in games when a person ran, saying it was 'wrong'. But for me, it's something I find unneccesary even when sexualising a character. If they can magically handle toxic chemicals, they can get a magic bra.

[Pumpkin]

I find bulges sexy





just sayin

[Ayen]

I... have been told by many girls that they do NOT find penises attractive, nor do they find tight clothing in the penis area attractive. Bulges get giggled at on occasion (Olly Murs being the prime example I can think of) but yeah, when I ask for a list fo things girls find sexiest about guys, crotch bulges are generally quite far down the list, below facial features, butt, abs, chest, arms, hands and even "nice calves" which always surprises me. Veeery rare I hear about girls wanting more crotch bulge.

The women you talk to have different tastes in what they find sexy and don't represent what all women find attractive.

What's this? A thread where women not only admit at looking, but enjoy it? Why I'd never! (http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/1gcnwy/question_for_the_women_do_you_try_to_catch_a_peek/)

The comparison is a fair one to make.

Never thought we'd be talking about breasts and crotch bulges in the FFXV board, though.

[Psychotic]

My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times. Why? Like, I'm not judging you on a moral standpoint, I just... what is the context of this? "Hey Mickey, I've got a surprise for you!"?
Who's the oldest playable female character? Lulu at 22?Just looked into this and you're right, Lulu is the joint oldest - Aerith is also 22. Even the likes of Lightning, Fang and Freya are only 21. I was thinking "Huh, surely Imperial General Celes will be older" and she's just 18. The best I can come up with are temporary characters Beatrix (27) and Edea (unknown but surely in her 40's) and Rosa in The After Years at 36, but bear in mind that's a sequel and she's 19 in the original FFIV. Square has a really weird attitude towards women.

[Loony BoB]

Well, in that case, I don't mind if the guys have a bulge, sure. Whatever works!

Although as someone said in that reddit page...

But when I do take a peek it's less of a "how big is he" look and more of a "damn I want that" look.
...and I still think it's not very high on most girl's lists (either that or they simply don't want to admit it ;)).

Still, as the player behind The Bulge, this makes me smile a little. Especially when they say "Its such a turn-on to see the bulge." xD

EDIT: Just saw Psy's post about female ages. That, to me, is far worse than anything else when it comes to sexism in Final Fantasy games.

[Pumpkin]

Who's the oldest playable female character? Lulu at 22?Just looked into this and you're right, Lulu is the joint oldest - Aerith is also 22. Even the likes of Lightning, Fang and Freya are only 21. I was thinking "Huh, surely Imperial General Celes will be older" and she's just 18. The best I can come up with is Rosa in The After Years at 36, but bear in mind that's a sequel and she's 19 in the original FFIV. Square has a really weird attitude towards women.

I was actually looking in to that after playing Atelier Totori and Meruru, because one of the girls would have been in her 30's by the third game (Meruru) but instead they aged her down to 8. Why? Because they literally say no one wants to see her in her 30's. Oh and turning her in to an 8 year old was an accident. They were actually trying to make her in to the "ideal age" of FOURTEEN

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChristmasCake

Apparently to some, women are past their prime by 25. But its always bugged me because I mean some of these characters have like years and years of experience and high up positions and they're like... 19. And I'm not saying that's impossible but it sure as heck is much more unlikely than they make it. Like in Xenosaga, Shion Uzuki is in an extremely prominent position for one of the biggest companies in the universe heading all these major projects and how old is she? 22.

That's part of what I was talking about with Cidney. FFIV Cid: 54. FFVII Cid: 32. And you know Cid Kramer, Cid Fabool, Cid from VI, Cid from X, you know they're older than 30. How much do you want to be Cidney is under 25? I could be wrong but its just a feeling

[Jinx]

Ha, yeah, who doesn't love the JRPG trope of the 15-year-old army captain?

[Del Murder]

Hey now, Fran is like 50.

[Sephiroth]

I was actually looking in to that after playing Atelier Totori and Meruru, because one of the girls would have been in her 30's by the third game (Meruru) but instead they aged her down to 8. Why? Because they literally say no one wants to see her in her 30's. Oh and turning her in to an 8 year old was an accident. They were actually trying to make her in to the "ideal age" of FOURTEEN


That has nothing to do with just women. Gio is 70 and does not look like 70, Sterk is in his 40s and still looks like in his 20s. Some characters are just not cool enough looking for anime-lovers. Xehanort in Kingdom Hearts did his body change not simply to survive. Also Rorona is supposed to be 14 because Totori and Meruru were teenagers in their games and Rorona was 14 in her game originally as well (something that got changed in the West by making her 17). Plenty of Atelier characters are 30+, women as well but just don't look like it. Such as Gisela, Astrid or Esty.

[Fox]

The weirdest age related thing in Final Fantasy was Quistis, I felt. Usually you get away with the fact that everyone's like, 19 by simply not talking about it. But Quistis? "I became a SeeD when I was 15, and then an instructor when I was 17. That was one year ago."

How can you be an instructor at that age? Is she even old enough to be drinking the champagne at that party?

[Loony BoB]

Honestly it kind of annoys me how young they make them. I kind of pretend that they're much older, based on their appearance, personality and maturity. FFXII in particular gets this treatment... I can't help but see Ashe and notably Fran as much older than they probably officially are. Even with the older guys, like Cid Highwind. He's 32 in FFVII but for me he acts notably older. Maybe it's just in my head, but I really get the impression he's more like a 40 year old.


Hey now, Fran is like 50.
So she is. "Eldest is Lulu at 22" my butt, Psy!

[Aulayna]

What was that one phrase from most of the Versus XIII trailers right up until the rebranding to Final Fantasy XV?

This is a fantasy based on reality.

Now tell me, how many mechanics have you seen dressed like that in real life?

At least the clothes the guys are wearing are more believable as practical (if slightly exaggerated high-market) everyday fashion. (same with the likes of Luna and Stella)

But a mechanic dressed like that, really? You can't see why some people might feel it's a bit ludicrous? Might as well change her name to Cidney "The Mechanic" from Page 3 of The Sun.

[Pumpkin]

But of course she can't look 50 because no one wants to see a 50 year old woman amirite

[Sephiroth]

Lightning is over 500. Fang and Vanille are over 700. Ultimecia is like, ancient.

[Fox]

I have an awesome character design an artist did for me for one of my projects. I'd come up with a female scholar but realised I'd done exactly this ("I'm the leading researcher in my field! I'm 17 years old!") so I changed it so she's in her 40's. Guess what? She looks badass. Older women can look cool as well, there's no reason (other than the obvious one that makes us sad) to make them all so young. Although in fairness this is one silly area that is often shared by the men. Perhaps not quite equally​, but often.

The world would be a better place if awesome characters like Judge Drace could be promoted to protagonists.

[Ayen]

It's shared by the men, but if XV has proven anything it's that they're fully capable of making older characters with wrinkles and all. Hopefully women won't be far behind.

Just look at how awesome Asha'bellanar from Dragon Age was.

[Psychotic]

Hey now, Fran is like 50.
So she is. "Eldest is Lulu at 22" my butt, Psy!

Lightning in Lightning Returns is over 500, but who's counting? :p Fran isn't human and ages differently.

[Sephiroth]

But of course she can't look 50 because no one wants to see a 50 year old woman amirite


You cannot give Atelier characters a consistent look because it is a game that tells a story of many years and not every event has to be in time x. In the endings they normally have aged a bit.

Also, Atelier does exist for the purpose of eyecandy and never was supposed to be the opposite.

[Shorty]

The literal age number doesn't matter here; the point is that in this series, the appearance of a majority of primary female characters shows them to be look as if they were 25-ish or younger, with many of them actually as teens. That is what the problem is.

[Spooniest]

SO STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

[Loony BoB]

It's shared by the men, but if XV has proven anything it's that they're fully capable of making older characters with wrinkles and all. Hopefully women won't be far behind.
Have they? I mean, all the playable characters look about 25 at most. Maybe that's just me. They have had older female NPCs, but never playable older characters. Even Cid Highwind, old man himself, was said to be 32 and it's silly. They should be able to have 40 year old girls and guys that look and act 40 and are 40 in pretty much all recognisable ways.

This reminds me a little of that thing we did about "What FF could learn from GoT" - we should have added in "older women are cool". But hey, at least they listened to one thing we added on that list. Look! Cidney has dirt on her! Is she the first ever character in Final Fantasy history to get some grub on their face? Even in FFXIII I recall them getting into all kinds of muck and them coming out clean every time.

[Fox]

Can you imagine a world like that? Where instead of being able to both enjoy a piece of media and harbour criticisms towards it, you had to just love everything about it unconditionally or not buy it? The economy would collapse!



"I'm not all that keen on this all-male cast". STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES!
"The game is good, but the ability system is kind of boring." WHY DID YOU EVEN BUY IT!?
"Check out my new car! It's a bit slow off the line but makes up for it in-" YOU KNOW YOU'RE JUST ENCOURAGING THEM RIGHT??

[Ayen]

SO STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

I don't disagree since I'm a big believer of "vote with your wallet" but here how conversations like this would go if more people did that.

"trololol you don't even play the games, what do you know?"


Have they? I mean, all the playable characters look about 25 at most. Maybe that's just me. They have had older female NPCs, but never playable older characters. Even Cid Highwind, old man himself, was said to be 32 and it's silly. They should be able to have 40 year old girls and guys that look and act 40 and are 40 in pretty much all recognisable ways.

Yeah, I may have botched it here because I was thinking of the old men in the trailers without knowing how relevant they are to the plot and such. I mainly just meant they're fully capable of designing older characters so there's not much excuse not having one of them playable.

[Psychotic]

This reminds me a little of that thing we did about "What FF could learn from GoT" - we should have added in "older women are cool". But hey, at least they listened to one thing we added on that list. I don't know how old you think Daenerys is but... :erm:

There are four female point of view characters in AGoT. Three of them are fourteen or under. Just sayin'.

[Aulayna]

It's shared by the men, but if XV has proven anything it's that they're fully capable of making older characters with wrinkles and all. Hopefully women won't be far behind.

Have they? I mean, all the playable characters look about 25 at most. Maybe that's just me.

Cidney isn't a playable character either though?

Noctis and his hatchback Brosephs are all the playable characters as the devs have stated in the interviews so far.

As for the old guys, just use the Fifteen skin on this site and examine the guy to the left of Stella, the guy to the right of Noctis and the guy to the right of Assassin's Creed Assassin Man. I believe it is those characters that ToriJ was referring too, showing that SQEX are more than capable of designing older characters that are integral to the story.

[Ayen]

As for the old guys, just use the Fifteen skin on this site and examine the guy to the left of Stella, the guy to the right of Noctis and the guy to the right of Assassin's Creed Assassin Man. I believe it is those characters that ToriJ was referring too, showing that SQEX are more than capable of designing older characters that are integral to the story.

Yup.

[Sephiroth]

Also the main consumers of Final Fantasy are young adults. You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that. If the looks of older characters would interest more people there would be more Dysleys, Tellas or FuSoYas, but cool, good-looking and strong fantasy-anime characters that they want to be like and are interested in are the main aspect.

[Aulayna]

Also the main consumers of Final Fantasy are young adults. You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that.


Main character != NPCs


Also the main consumers of Final Fantasy are young adults.

Citation Needed :monster:

[Sephiroth]

Main character != NPCs

The talk was about characters that were also in your team.




Citation Needed :monster:

I don't know about you but in my country Final Fantasy is not for smaller kids and being in multiple forums the amount of young adults has been way greater than that of, I don't know, people in their 40s. I could even take a younger age than 40 but I am afraid to insult someone with that, which I do not want so I just leave thatb one out before someone here is insulted again by stuff that was never meant to be bad/insulting in the first place.

[Aulayna]

Main character != NPCs

The talk was about characters that were also in your team.

Still not the "main" character though.




Citation Needed :monster:

I don't know about you but in my country Final Fantasy is not for smaller kids and being in multiple forums the amount of young adults has been way greater than that of, I don't know, people in their 40s. I could even take a younger age than 40 but I am afraid to insult someone with that, which I do not want.

And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_culture#Demographics) suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15 (which seems to be a common age for fantasy RPG characters), for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

[Loony BoB]

This reminds me a little of that thing we did about "What FF could learn from GoT" - we should have added in "older women are cool". But hey, at least they listened to one thing we added on that list. I don't know how old you think Daenerys is but... :erm:

There are four female point of view characters in AGoT. Three of them are fourteen or under. Just sayin'.
I was referring to the TV series, where we have a number of very cool older ladies. My point stands. And I don't think Dany is notably cool, so yeah. I think almost all the older females are cooler than almost all the younger ones in GoT and also think the eldest of them all (I think) is the coolest.


As for the old guys, just use the Fifteen skin on this site and examine the guy to the left of Stella, the guy to the right of Noctis and the guy to the right of Assassin's Creed Assassin Man. I believe it is those characters that ToriJ was referring too, showing that SQEX are more than capable of designing older characters that are integral to the story.

Yup.
Oh, I know older males are in there, and I know older females have been in FF before too, although probably not in notable roles (unless they appear young like in VIII with the sorcerers, or Fran).

[Sephiroth]

And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_culture#Demographics) suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15, for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

The age you have mentioned covers young adults. You take "young adults" as "teenager" which I never defined as in the first place. It only begins with teenagers. And yes, 30 is also young considering how old a human being can get. And yes, also those people were perfectly fine with the age of the characters. People should not think just because 10/1000 want something different that it is a problem.

[Aulayna]

And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_culture#Demographics) suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15, for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

The age you have mentioned covers young adults. You take "young adults" as "teenager" which I never defined as in the first place. It only begins with teenagers.


You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that.

?

[Scotty_ffgamer]

The weirdest age related thing in Final Fantasy was Quistis, I felt. Usually you get away with the fact that everyone's like, 19 by simply not talking about it. But Quistis? "I became a SeeD when I was 15, and then an instructor when I was 17. That was one year ago."

How can you be an instructor at that age? Is she even old enough to be drinking the champagne at that party?

I'm not getting into the rest of this argument because I don't care to really, but Quistis has always been an interesting character to me. The fact that she was made an instructor at such a young age is absolutely ridiculous, but she never really comes off as a particularly good instructor either. I've always thought that she always seemed a bit immature, and she acted like a teenager for much of the time I felt. Balamb Garden is kind of poorly run in general. The initial purpose of building the school was shakily vague at best, and it eventually just seemed to become a school where they were simply training kids from a very young age to become highly trained mercenaries by 18ish. Cid doesn't seem to really be running things well in the glimpses we see of the school. Honestly, the garden faculty and NORG all seem to have more control at the end of the day.

Interestingly, we never see any other teachers either that I can think of. I wonder if all the teachers in that school are young like Quistis, or if maybe Cid had the stupid idea of thinking "well, maybe the kids will be able to relate better to an instructor that is the same age as them." The whole of the VIII world and the Garden concept is really weird when you think about it.

But I digress, that has little to do with the arguments being made in this thread, and has literally nothing to do with XV.

[Sephiroth]

And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_culture#Demographics) suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15, for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

The age you have mentioned covers young adults. You take "young adults" as "teenager" which I never defined as in the first place. It only begins with teenagers.


You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that.


?

Ah, you took those two together. They were two different examples. I did not mean that the main consumer age of Pokémon is equal to Final Fantasy. My bad. Pokémon begins earlier. I thought that was obvious.

[The Man]

who calls a thirty-year-old a young adult, seriously

[Sephiroth]

A 30 year old is for sure no old adult. Do you want to call it "mid-adult"? Also, my term was just there to stand for something. I could take it away and still mean exactly the same. And as said, Final Fantasy has plenty of "younger adults" that the player can use to project their own wishes in. You will not see a 60 year old player ranting that they have not 100 60 year old characters to play that stand for them.

[The Man]

Well, considering "young adult" is commonly understood to describe fiction aimed at ages 14 to 21, it's a pretty idiosyncratic use of the term to use it to describe a thirty-year-old.

[Del Murder]

who calls a thirty-year-old a young adult, seriously
30 is the new 15.

[Sephiroth]

It does not matter at all which word I use for a certain age if I explain what is meant. And with many teenagers and the few years after teen-age, up to late 20s or early 30s or whatever I have certainly no problem to call them "young". This is not supposed to be a discussion about "I am 30. Does that make me old?"

If I take a 20 year old main character I know I cover many players. If I take one in his/her late 20s or also in their 30s we also have many players. Their might be some guys who want an even older character but that is obviously not the main audience. I also want a non-human character and also not humanoid. That does not mean that everyone wants a Mog or Nanaki just as I do.

[Karifean]

Huh, so FFXV's Cid is going to be a woman. Interesting change of trend. I wonder how plot-relevant she's going to be. Probably a person closely connected to the main characters either stationed in a fixed settlement or traveling to new plot-relevant locations every now and then. Would be neat if she were a guest party member at some point. Maybe the car was made by her? Maybe she can upgrade your weapons or provide you with new tools? That'd be neat.

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

[Pumpkin]

I'm guessing she'll have something to do with the car. Because mechanic

[Sephiroth]

As mentioned, she is mainly there for the adventure of the player but not the main plot. There was an interview with Hajime Tabata. That does not mean that she has no relevance at all, of course. Maybe there is a time when we must meet her at least once.

[The Man]

It does not matter at all which word I use for a certain age if I explain what is meant.But you didn't explain what you meant initially. It was only after you had confused multiple people that you clarified what you meant.


And with many teenagers and the few years after teen-age, up to late 20s or early 30s or whatever I have certainly no problem to call them "young".The phrase "young adult" has an established meaning in common usage. You can't just disregard it because you don't like it and expect people not to comment.


A 30 year old is for sure no old adult. Do you want to call it "mid-adult"? That sounds stupid. "Twentysomething" or "thirtysomething" is fine.

[Ayen]

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

It's easy not to care when things don't affect you.

[Sephiroth]

Yes, it is perfectly fine to redefine something that has another meaning already. I use a word, give it a meaning and officially explain it and it does not affect the global definition. I just need to get sure no one confuses one thing with the other. Which I have made clear now. Actually there are even definitions out there which are extremely unclear or definitions that get a new meaning all the time like in Computer Science where you define stuff. It has also fixed defined stuff but even that could technically be redefined safely by pointing out that you mean xy.

Is it helpful? Probably not always when someone is confused but if someone gets what I mean then the purpose is fulfilled. People just need to be aware of that it might be something else which I will explain without problem in case someone is confused. I do not say that other meaning that is normally used by others is wrong.

[Karifean]

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

It's easy not to care when things don't affect you.

Indeed it is.

I will start caring when the game does, though.


As mentioned, she is mainly there for the adventure of the player but not the main plot. There was an interview with Hajime Tabata. That does not mean that she has no relevance at all, of course. Maybe there is a time when we must meet her at least once.

Sounds like she'll be mainly gameplay-relevant for most of the game. Maybe something like O'Aka's role from FFX as the one who provides you with supplies from time to time.

[FFFFsephychibi]

Huh, so FFXV's Cid is going to be a woman. Interesting change of trend. I wonder how plot-relevant she's going to be. Probably a person closely connected to the main characters either stationed in a fixed settlement or traveling to new plot-relevant locations every now and then. Would be neat if she were a guest party member at some point. Maybe the car was made by her? Maybe she can upgrade your weapons or provide you with new tools? That'd be neat.

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

I cannot remember which info dump/interview I read this in, but Tabata said the car would be customizable in FFXV, I think Cidney will have something to do with customization and tunes ups. It would make sense especially if the characters need to sleep to gain better advantage in battle, maybe the car will break down and need to be fixed.

[Shlup]

I appreciate that you can acknowledge the outfit is stupid, but to say that's okay with you because you "don't mind" shows me that you are choosing to ignore all the negative impacts this kind of gender inequality and over sexualization of females has on society.
This is not the case, I just don't think that Final Fantasy is the trigger for that kind of thing, nor do I think that having a sexualised character is a bad thing.
Having a sexualized character isn't a bad thing. Having the first female Cid be so vastly different from previous Cids in a clearly sexist way is a bad thing, especially if you take a moment to acknowledge that women are sexualized far, far more often than men already. I know you've said repeatedly that "she's fictional" and you believe "Final Fantasy is better than most," as justification for ignoring the disparity between how males and females are treated by media, but that doesn't mean the negative consequences we all deal with go away just because you don't care.


Firstly, I consider someone attractive if I consider them attractive, not if they meet certain criteria.
First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society, and then you're unable to judge attractiveness by any criteria but your own. Knowing you as long as I have, I'm having a hard time believing you're honestly so unable to step outside of your own perspective. I think you're being stubborn.

If I were to re-do the tally, with the corrections Psy pointed out, I would put Hope and probably Gau as "attractive males" and Realm as an "unattractive female." Hell, let's put Kimahri as an attractive male too, since he has pecs. That would make the male characters 30% unattractive and 14% for the females. So the males are only a little more than twice as likely to be permitted to be unattractive. "Unattractive" people would be the elderly, the non-fit, children under 14, and non-humanoid (Red and Cait Sith). I think it's notable that females are always young and humanoid.



I definitely disagree with you on the first two though. Especially the second one. For your second point you are being very daft.
See chionos' post. :shobon: Same for the next paragraph you put in, about how there is only one guy who is sexualised because he has an open shirt. I would love to hear from a large group of people who consider themselves to be bisexual to describe what outfits they consider sexy on a guy and then on a girl. I suspect they will not markedly different - in my experience, this is the case, anyway. Girls are generally seen as having a sexy appearance if they are fit and dress skimpy. Guys, if they go around wearing nothing but underwear and showing off their full body, don't tend to get the same treatment. Again, I asked Danielle what she considered sexy on a guy - the "most sexualised" a guy could be for her - and she said showing chest and/or abs (but with a shirt or jacket of some kind) and with some jeans or something on. Bikini top? Hot pants? "No." xD The problem is that the clothes guys are considered to be at their sexiest in tend to be normal clothes. Suits. T-shirt and jeans. Stuff like that. Girls, on the other hand, are seen as sexy in these things, but also seen as sexy in a bikini, or seen as sexy in a low cut top, or seen as sexy in a skirt, thigh high boots, turtlenecks even. A nice dress. Effectively girls tend to be seen as sexy - appearance-wise, obviously - in a much wider variety of clothing, and in some cases it is considered extremely sexy, while guys don't get that kind of thing. That's possibly unfair, but it's just the way people are in a large number of cultures, certainly the ones we live in, in the current world.
First, you're ignoring the socialization that comes with the difference between what men and women find sexy. Second, you're way off base about what women find sexy. Third, you're ignoring the difference between "sexy" and "sexualized." Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it? Or is this just back to confusing "sexy" with "sexualized" because you have some notion that a woman in a bikini humping a car hood is equal to a man in a suit standing in a place...?



My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times. Why? Like, I'm not judging you on a moral standpoint, I just... what is the context of this? "Hey Mickey, I've got a surprise for you!"?
Breastfeeding.


...and I still think it's not very high on most girl's lists (either that or they simply don't want to admit it ;)).
Or we're socialized against oogling and hooting. We like crotch bulges, but we are supposed to be the pretty, submissive, sexualized group, not men.

And, yes, I realize that sounds like I'm being an "omg feminist," but I really need you to consider here just how little you, as you said yourself, know about socialization of the genders. I'm not going to pull the "I read books" card here because it would be rude of me to expect you to just take my word for it... I also don't want to cite entire books as my sources. I have a plan! Every time I come across a relevant article, I will forward it to you. Win-win.


SO STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES FOR CHRIST'S SAKE
You've already been told you're being unreasonable here, but I'll just reiterate: I can like something without liking everything about it. If I were to tell you my husband frequently puts dirty dishes back in the cupboard would you say "SO DIVORCE HIM FOR CHRIST'S SAKE"?


Also the main consumers of Final Fantasy are young adults. You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that. If the looks of older characters would interest more people there would be more Dysleys, Tellas or FuSoYas, but cool, good-looking and strong fantasy-anime characters that they want to be like and are interested in are the main aspect.
Except that they do make Final Fantasy characters over 22, just not females.

And, just for posterity, here's some linkspam that supports my stance:

http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexual-objectification.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11199-006-9147-3
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/26/sexual-pressure-objectification_n_5708921.html
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2961930?uid=3739560&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21105504405683
http://pwq.sagepub.com/content/38/3/398.abstract
https://news.wsu.edu/2014/05/27/study-links-mens-magazine-readers-unwanted-sexual-behaviors/#.VJoFM_8B_d
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/men-objectified-by-women/
http://www.alternet.org/story/146396/new_discoveries_suggest_that_sexual_objectification_is_more_damaging_to_women_than_you_might_think

For those who think that men and women are equally sexualized, or that the gap between the genders and sexualization isn't all that wide, or that it's not a big deal, or that Cidney should get a pass because... whatever reason: [citation needed]

[Spooniest]

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

[Vyk]

I know the topic has changed already, but I just wanted to jump in and give a huge sigh of relief, because I always felt like I was in the minority around here with regards to JRPGs and anime, and their ridiculous age structures where they have such a romantic view of high school, they think all their best characters have to be high school aged, even in settings where school and age are pretty irrelevant, and even (more ridiculous) where age and school completely contradict logic in their social and career position. I honestly can NOT play certain games where this is a huge factor, it grates me so badly, and trying to relate to someone who is not only half my age, but also supposedly twice as advanced both intellectually and in their field of study is just absolutely ridiculous, and I cannot seem to suspend my disbelief enough to swallow that or enjoy it

Most recently had this issue with Tales of Xillia, where one of the main character is supposed to be a DOCTOR who is FIFTEEN. My girlfriend and I both agreed to completely ignore his official age, and just consider him something more reasonable. Like ... 20. Possibly a really sheltered 20 to account for his emotionally immature demeanor

But yes, these things have been rampant in FF, and I am honestly surprised to find that aside from Fran, Lulu was the next oldest at 22. I had never realized that, and find it completely ridiculous. Especially considering they're happy to have older guys here and there. But like BoB pointed out, even then their ideas on their ages are still far from reasonable. I too consider Cid from VII to be like 45

[The Man]

Yes, it is perfectly fine to redefine something that has another meaning already. I use a word, give it a meaning and officially explain it and it does not affect the global definition.The thing you seem to be refusing to acknowledge is that you are being criticised because you didn't explain it. If you had explained what you meant up front, there would have been no problem.


I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

Uh.


Discussion on the subject is the solution.

- Publisher does something stupid
- Gets bad press
- Thinks twice before doing it next time.

And, you know, talking about character depictions on video game forums? Surprisingly useful in itself. Because where do the next generation of game developers spend their internet time in their youth? Right here.


Media sources sometimes pick it up, and it becomes a thing. Sometimes even a phenomenon. Sometimes it forces change.

[Laddy]

I would seriously want to see a game with male characters in it designed by aggressively enthusiastic yaoi fangirls. I would kill to see how the internet would react.

Her outfit is silly. Not prohibitively silly, but it out of place in an otherwise serious and realism-oriented game. She's a mechanic and she has no practical reason to dress like that. Now if Noctis and his crew were a bunch of guyliner'd guys in black bikinis and short blazers there might be room for an argument that it's fair game but they aren't. A character can be attractive, sexy even, without having their agency or ability to be taken seriously away. While Cidney is not a failure of a character just by her design, it creates an impression of the character and her role that the game will have to make an effort to dispel. If she turns out to be the best character ever then that's all well in good but my argument is that she should be able to exist as a sexual and/or dynamic character based on how she's written and framed rather than presenting her in such a way.

[Loony BoB]

First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society
If you would be so kind as to stop repeatedly putting words in my mouth, I'd be really grateful. Do I think sexualising is okay? Yes. Do I think gender disparities are okay? Depends on the gender disparity in question. If I like the taste of Cheddar that doesn't mean I like the taste of all cheeses. Do I think the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters, in general throughout all media, negatively impacts society? Yes.


Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it?
Both. These things are not mutually exclusive. Men are sexualised, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise. But men and women ARE treated differently, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise regarding that, too.

[Shlup]

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.
Here are a few actions you can take, with varying degrees of effort:
1) Reflect on these issues and how they may affect your feelings and behavior. Try to do better.
2) Talk about these issues in hopes of making someone aware of them who previously wasn't.
3) Talk about these issues so that others realize they're not alone. Silence doesn't change anything.
4) Write a letter to Square Enix expressing your disappointment that they would choose to turn an iconic character into fan service.
5) Write a letter to Square Enix, and let them know you won't be buying the game because of it.
6) Write an article, a blog post, or make a video about the issue for the above reasons.
7) Start a petition to let Square Enix know others are also disappointed by their choice.

Is that acceptable for you? That's all I could think of off the top of my head.



First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society
If you would be so kind as to stop repeatedly putting words in my mouth, I'd be really grateful. Do I think sexualising is okay? Yes. Do I think gender disparities are okay? Depends on the gender disparity in question. If I like the taste of Cheddar that doesn't mean I like the taste of all cheeses. Do I think the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters, in general throughout all media, negatively impacts society? Yes.


Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it?
Both. These things are not mutually exclusive. Men are sexualised, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise. But men and women ARE treated differently, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise regarding that, too.

I wanted to highlight those two statements before reminding you that you've said each of the following:


I don't "appreciate" cheap pandering, but I "accept and quite frankly don't care about" cheap pandering provided it's a fictional character and it is done to each gender.


Is it okay to have sexy characters in a video game? Even if it's just for the sake of making them sexy? Sure, I don't see why not. Guy or girl. Just don't care, really.


I don't care if an outfit is sexualised and/or stupid.


In the end, I just think that it's not a problem to sexualise fictional people.


It could be a culture issue, it could be a social issue, but as for myself, I don't mind fictional characters being shown to be sexy because they are in a fantasy world where bullets, swords and toxic chemicals used by car mechanics are all things that do not harm one so easily.


I just don't see a problem with sexualising in general so long as it's being done in a fictional world, and it's being done to both genders.

You acknowledge that "men and women ARE treated differently," you acknowledge that "gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society" but tell me I'm putting words in your mouth after you've said repeatedly that you don't care, as long as they're fictional and it's happening to both genders. The genders are not treated equally, it negatively impacts society, but you "don't see a problem."

Maybe you could just clarify what it is that you don't care about then.

I would also appreciate you giving me a handful examples of sexualized male characters. We can limit it to Final Fantasy since you've declared the series "fair and equal."

Keep in mind these objective facts: The oldest [human] female character is Lulu at 22 and oldest male is Strago at 70. At least FFIV Cid (54), Yang (35), Tellah (60), Edward (24), Fusoya (?), Edge (26), Galuf (60), Locke (25), Edgar (27), Sabin (27), Cyan (50), Strago (70), Setzer (27), Barrett (35), Vincent (27), Steiner (33), Amarant (26), Auron (35), Wakka (23), Basch (36), Sazh (40) playable male characters are older than 22-year-old Lulu; not counting temporarily playable characters over 22 (Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Seymour), characters of unknown age other than obviously elderly Fusoya (Shadow and Gogo), and non-humans 25-year-old Kimahri and 46-year-old Red.

There are no non-humanoid female characters.

This isn't completely objective, but I think I was very fair in saying male characters are more than twice as likely to be allowed to be unattractive as female characters (also, I thought Gau was 14, but he's 13 so I'm amending my "attractive" to 13+ for the sake of erring on your side).

To my knowledge, no male characters pose in a way designed http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131228200629/finalfantasy/images/2/24/Lulu_Victory_Pose.png.

Before you delve into your many examples of sexualized males, I want to point out that I feel like a major issue here may be people thinking "sexy" and "sexualized" are synonyms. They're not. Leonardo DiCaprio is always sexy no matter what he's doing or wearing. A sexy person/character is "sexually interesting or exciting," or desirable.

According to the American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report-full.pdf), a person is sexualized when:
-a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;
-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or
- (def: expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive ) is inappropriately imposed upon a person.

So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.

Also, just for posterity and because I hate for anyone to think I just talk out of my ass, here are some choice quotes from a few highly regarded studies, primarily the APA's report:
"Games were significantly more likely to depict female characters partially nude or engaged in sexual behaviors than to depict male characters in this way. (http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report-full.pdf)

"Dill, Gentile, Richter, and Dill (2005) found that in the 20 top-selling games in 1999, only female characters were portrayed as highly sexualized." (http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report-full.pdf)

My primary source for these is the Wiki entry on sexualization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualization). I know there's always someone who goes "Pfft, Wikipedia," but each statement has a citation, so you're welcome to skip the wiki and read each of the citations if you prefer.

[Loony BoB]

You acknowledge that "men and women ARE treated differently," you acknowledge that "gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society" but tell me I'm putting words in your mouth after you've said repeatedly that you don't care, as long as they're fictional and it's happening to both genders. The genders are not treated equally, it negatively impacts society, but you "don't see a problem."

Maybe you could just clarify what it is that you don't care about then.
When, in a specific game and/or series, I feel the genders are sexualised and/or not sexualised to a reasonably equal degree (gender-wise), no, I don't care. If, such as in a game like Dead or Alive, we see it blatantly one-sided, I think it's bad. Doesn't mean I'm going to lose my trout, but I feel these games go too far. They're entitled to make these games and like yourself, I'm entitled to not buy them, but hey, whatever. Still, I can see the appeal of these games to people who are seeking titilation without the use of outright porn. I won't kick up a stink about it, but I'm happy to state my opinion on any particular game and/or series if I have one and feel like putting it out there. FF just happens to be a series close to my heart and if I feel people are overreacting, I'm just as happy - if not even happier, due to the series being something I'm fond of - to express my opinion on it.

I'll also note that when I feel they go too far, I still express an opinion against Final Fantasy - such as in the case of Fran, which I personally felt was ridiculous. But some people - interestingly often female - like that, so I wasn't going to make a huge fuss.


I would also appreciate you giving me a handful examples of sexualized male characters. We can limit it to Final Fantasy since you've declared the series "fair and equal."
Gladiolus. Tidus. Barret. Snow. Gadolt. Kuja (although personally I imagine that the majority of girls are more likely to find other characters sexier than Kuja, like Basch, because girls tend to prefer the feather to the whole damned chicken, which I personally agree with but hey, if you like the codpiece, power to you).


Keep in mind these objective facts: The oldest [human] female character is Lulu at 22 and oldest male is Strago at 70. At least FFIV Cid (54), Yang (35), Tellah (60), Edward (24), Fusoya (?), Edge (26), Galuf (60), Locke (25), Edgar (27), Sabin (27), Cyan (50), Strago (70), Setzer (27), Barrett (35), Vincent (27), Steiner (33), Amarant (26), Auron (35), Wakka (23), Basch (36), Sazh (40) playable male characters are older than 22-year-old Lulu; not counting temporarily playable characters over 22 (Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Seymour), characters of unknown age other than obviously elderly Fusoya (Shadow and Gogo), and non-humans 25-year-old Kimahri and 46-year-old Red.
I've acknowledged already that the age thing is something they can work on.


There are no non-humanoid female characters.
Freya. Unless you mean non-humanoid in a more loose term, in which case there's probably only been one non-humanoid ever, Red XIII. All the rest have two arms, two legs, a vertical torso, a neck, a head, etc.


To my knowledge, no male characters pose in a way designed http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131228200629/finalfantasy/images/2/24/Lulu_Victory_Pose.png.
It's a bit unfair as males don't have boobs or any kind of "secondary sex characteristics" I can think of according to society. We've just got the genitalia, which to my knowledge isn't exaggerated in either gender beyond that seen in Kuja.


Before you delve into your many examples of sexualized males
BUT I ALREADY DID THIS :stare: Dangit, Shlup! Let me reply to your post as I read it more often! xD


I want to point out that I feel like a major issue here may be people thinking "sexy" and "sexualized" are synonyms. They're not. Leonardo DiCaprio is always sexy no matter what he's doing or wearing. A sexy person/character is "sexually interesting or exciting," or desirable.

According to the American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report-full.pdf), a person is sexualized when:
-a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;
In this case, 90% of the claims for both sides can probably be thrown out. Damned near everyone has value beyond physical appearance in the Final Fantasy series. And we haven't even seen FFXV yet but I'm pretty confident that Cindy (wish they kept it as Cidney) will have more relevance than her sexual appeal.

-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
I don't quite understand this bit. >_<;

-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or[/quote
See two bits up - I'm pretty confident that Cindy is not going to be a whore and I'm pretty sure most FF characters, if not all of them, can have the same said about them. Perhaps a few exceptions such as dancers in FFV and people you encounter within honeybee inn.
[quote]- (def: expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive ) is inappropriately imposed upon a person.
...Aeris? >_>; But kidding aside, again, I don't think we can say much of this for anyone. Has sex ever actually been a thing in FF? Personally speaking, I think sexualised should include "being dressed inappropriately for ones role for the sake of gaining sexual appeal via physical attraction." If one of the above was meant to equate to that, it goes back to "is it sexy, is it relevant for what they do" and we're back to what we've been discussing earlier.


So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.
I'm troubled here because every single guy I can think of that is supposed to be sexually attractive appears to be muscular (and therefore powerful) because that is what is deemed to be sexy according to most females. So I could tell you Gladiolus, and you could say "No, he's strong, that's a power thing." And I don't know where to go from there because it's down to how you personally want to interpret it. The guy legitimately looks like a male model, to me at least.

Really, I think before we can go much further, you need to send me examples of sexualised males (...probably better to do so via PM or something) so I can get a better understanding of your interpretation of what they should look like. I've grown up being told (by females) that male wrestlers in tiny pants was not something they found attractive, but I'm getting the impression that this is what you mean by sexualised, because I'm unsure what else it could be.

[Vyk]

So now that her name is actually Cindy, what are we going to do if/when the real Cid pops up? I've obviously been on the side that her outfit is a little too purposefully sexual for no good/justifiable reason. But the people saying "They changed Cid's gender and immediately sexualized it" will have lost a little momentum

Is this going to be more forgivable if it turns out to not be an incarnation of Cid? I obviously threw my hands up when it was pointed out her outfit was designed by a fashion designer and not just a perverted character artist locked up and deprived(/depraved) at Square HQ, but I think it leaves a little more wiggle-room for the possibility of context

She legitimately could end up being Cid's daughter or niece. Which would mean he's the real deal, and she's probably just some up-start prodigy mechanic who might not have been wearing that while working on stuff. She may have just gotten done taking off her coveralls, or she may have been standing on the sideline helping her uncle/dad and just got some stuff on her face. I still don't completely approve of her outfit as a standard for FF characters, but the situation has at the very least opened up for more reasonable context possibilities. And if any of that turns out to be the case, I'll likely be a lot more lenient on her

But in the end I'd probably swallow it anyway, my biggest problem is not so much that it exists, but that it exists in contrast with everything else. I already said she looks like someone out of Borderlands in that get-up and I don't hate Borderlands. But they established their own style. This game established its own style a long time ago. And then she shows up and just sorta throws things off in all kinds of wrong and weird directions

But the fact alone that they've made her name officially Cindy rather than Cidney gives me pause for thought. But yeah..

[Ayen]

Is this going to be more forgivable if it turns out to not be an incarnation of Cid?

No.

[Loony BoB]

I'm pretty confident that Cindy is the real Cid, given in FFXV she is named Cidney. I mean, you're right, it's possible she's a niece or something, but I find it unlikely. It would be pretty cool to have Cid have a family including Cindy, though, as I really do feel that Final Fantasy lacks "complete" families. It's always just a mum (Ma Dincht, Cloud's Mother, Elmyra) or just a dad (Barret, Sazh, Tifa's Dad). Even then, they're often adopted. Give us real families, dammit. We had Hope but then, well, yeah, that ended quickly.

[Sephiroth]

Where was it ever said that "Shidonii", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?

[Shorty]

-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
I don't quite understand this bit. >_<;

-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or
See two bits up - I'm pretty confident that Cindy is not going to be a whore and I'm pretty sure most FF characters, if not all of them, can have the same said about them. Perhaps a few exceptions such as dancers in FFV and people you encounter within honeybee inn.

No one is saying that anyone in Final Fantasy is a whore. You are jumping to astounding conclusions and implications of what Shlup is saying. I don't want to speak for her, but what it seems that she's saying is that there is an over-abundance of unnecessary sexualization of female characters in the series, not that everyone who shows off a little bit skin or cleavage is a whore. She literally used actual definitions of these words and somehow you snagged "whore" from them? How?




So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.
I'm troubled here because every single guy I can think of that is supposed to be sexually attractive appears to be muscular (and therefore powerful) because that is what is deemed to be sexy according to most females. So I could tell you Gladiolus, and you could say "No, he's strong, that's a power thing." And I don't know where to go from there because it's down to how you personally want to interpret it. The guy legitimately looks like a male model, to me at least.

Really, I think before we can go much further, you need to send me examples of sexualised males (...probably better to do so via PM or something) so I can get a better understanding of your interpretation of what they should look like. I've grown up being told (by females) that male wrestlers in tiny pants was not something they found attractive, but I'm getting the impression that this is what you mean by sexualised, because I'm unsure what else it could be.

The problem here is that you are confusing physical attraction with sexualization. A character having muscles is not sexualization, those are simply characteristics. Someone feeling attracted to another person =/= that person is a sexualized individual. It is a fact that females in this series are outrageously sexualized in showing off cleavage, breasts, and revealing much of their bodies. I don't see how you can draw a line from "women in thongs, bras, midriffs, short skirts and short shorts and other revealing outfits showing off sexual parts of their bodies is sexualization of the gender" to "girls liking muscles makes men sexualized". The two don't match up at all.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/streams/2013/June/130613/6C7866573-ffhair.blocks_desktop_large.jpg

Please explain to me how Gladiolus is a sexualized character. How exactly are parts of his body being shown off in order for women (and others) to objectify him? His shirt being open, okay, I'll give you that. Even so, such a thing doesn't imply sex appeal for all women and it still doesn't make him a sexualized character. Even with an example of his open shirt, he is a single male out of how many other males and how many other games where the males are not sexualized.

Saying that this problem plagues both sexes is not accurate; a single instance of it happening within the realm of male characters does not make it a problem for the male characters; it makes it a happenstance occurrence. The problem flat out lies with female characters and that is that.

[Loony BoB]

I didn't say Shlup said anyone was a whore, I was just going through the bullet list of what makes something sexualised and referencing it to Final Fantasy. Don't read too much into that bit.

Anyway, like I said, I'm genuinely going to need to see examples of what you think are sexualised men so I can get what you're referring to as what you think a sexualised male is, and what you think a sexualised female is. I mean, I know what I think they are, but you seem to be in disagreement. I dare say this is ironic that a guy like me could feel that a guy is being sexualised and girls are telling me "Nah he's not sexualised you're just wrong." Pretty sure I'm capable of saying when I feel a man is being used as a sex object. If I were a younger guy with more self confidence issues, I would be looking at the men women fawn over and he would be one of them and I would be going ":( I'm nothing like that, and never will be anything like that. I'm inferior." which is basically what Shlup is worrying about her daughter over. I get the feeling that people think guys are immune to such things, and I tell you, I was not when I was a kid. So if you're going to say that he is not being sexualised then I'm genuinely baffled.

What I'm getting out of Square Enix's characters is that they want physically attractive characters. For a lot of guys, like it or not, girls looking like Cindy are seen as highly physically attractive. For a lot of girls, whether I like it or not, guys looking like Gladiolus are seen as highly physically attractive. If you don't think he's being sexualised, I don't know what to say beyond "I think he's about as sexualised as Cindy is, it's just that sexualised girls are far bloody sexier than sexualised men are by default, in my personal opinion."

[Vyk]

Where was it ever said that "Shidoni", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?
Her role as "a Cid" wasn't changed. Though I always thought it was just our presumption that she was meant to be "a Cid" to begin with. Has it been confirmed that she is in fact this series Cid? My whole comment was under the impression that we were merely assuming she was "a Cid" based on the similarity in her name and supposed ability as a mechanic, which is a typical Cid career. I wasn't aware it was confirmed. But even if it was, I was commenting on the idea that they had translated her name to Cindy, rather than Cidney. Which would mean "Cid" is not even in her name, which would give credence to the idea that she may not in fact be this game's Cid. And we may have presumed wrong in this thread. People were calling her "Cidney" and then assuming that meant she was Cid. I haven't really seen an official confirmation that she is indeed Cid. But I haven't been following things as closely as others

[Sephiroth]

Where was it ever said that "Shidoni", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?
Her role as "a Cid" wasn't changed. Though I always thought it was just our presumption that she was meant to be "a Cid" to begin with. Has it been confirmed that she is in fact this series Cid? My whole comment was under the impression that we were merely assuming she was "a Cid" based on the similarity in her name and supposed ability as a mechanic, which is a typical Cid career. I wasn't aware it was confirmed. But even if it was, I was commenting on the idea that they had translated her name to Cindy, rather than Cidney. Which would mean "Cid" is not even in her name, which would give credence to the idea that she may not in fact be this game's Cid. And we may have presumed wrong in this thread. People were calling her "Cidney" and then assuming that meant she was Cid. I haven't really seen an official confirmation that she is indeed Cid. But I haven't been following things as closely as others

Shidonii and Shindi is not the same and her name is written and pronounced "Shidonii", so Cidney. I'd wonder about her being called Cindy in the West as Cidney was meant and you can conclude from the interview. Especially because Shidonii is a different name.

Shi-do-ni-i

[Loony BoB]

If it is an assumption we've made, the rest of the internet has made the same assumption. Possible! But unlikely.

[Shorty]

I didn't say Shlup said anyone was a whore, I was just going through the bullet list of what makes something sexualised and referencing it to Final Fantasy. Don't read too much into that bit.

Anyway, like I said, I'm genuinely going to need to see examples of what you think are sexualised men so I can get what you're referring to as what you think a sexualised male is, and what you think a sexualised female is. I mean, I know what I think they are, but you seem to be in disagreement. I dare say this is ironic that a guy like me could feel that a guy is being sexualised and girls are telling me "Nah he's not sexualised you're just wrong." Pretty sure I'm capable of saying when I feel a man is being used as a sex object. If I were a younger guy with more self confidence issues, I would be looking at the men women fawn over and he would be one of them and I would be going ":( I'm nothing like that, and never will be anything like that. I'm inferior." which is basically what Shlup is worrying about her daughter over. I get the feeling that people think guys are immune to such things, and I tell you, I was not when I was a kid. So if you're going to say that he is not being sexualised then I'm genuinely baffled.

What I'm getting out of Square Enix's characters is that they want physically attractive characters. For a lot of guys, like it or not, girls looking like Cindy are seen as highly physically attractive. For a lot of girls, whether I like it or not, guys looking like Gladiolus are seen as highly physically attractive. If you don't think he's being sexualised, I don't know what to say beyond "I think he's about as sexualised as Cindy is, it's just that sexualised girls are far bloody sexier than sexualised men are by default, in my personal opinion."

It's not ironic. You are not a woman, yet you make statements saying what women find to be attractive and how they sexualize men in instances where they are clearly not sexualizing them. That is wrong, because you are making assumptions on behalf of women, especially when they don't apply. You have yet to provide a sufficient example of male characters that appear to be sexualized by women, so you are wrong there again. There's nothing ironic about it; you are not presenting correct facts. It is incredulous that you feel like any one of the men in these games is used as a sex objects, and even moreso that you are using this comparison to contrast the present sexism to the female characters. You don't need to see photos of men I or anyone else consider to be sexualized males; it doesn't apply here. It doesn't change the fact of whether the males in this series are sexualized or not.

Just because you personally feel like you won't measure up to certain characteristics does not mean those characteristics are sexualized. I don't know how you are drawing these conclusions.

And on Cindy; how is she physically attractive? Is it her mechanic garb? Is it the oversized trucker hat on her head or her boyish haircut? Is it the dirt on her face, which you mentioned earlier? Tell me what it is exactly that you find attractive about her.

http://www.thegamecavern.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ffxv_cidney.jpg

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I'm betting on the fact that it's her blatant open breasts and bra that lead that attraction. And because her character is in a sexualizing and revealing outfit showing off a sexual part of her body, it is safe for me to make that assumption.

[Sephiroth]

Host: (reading fan question) "Cidney-tan."
Tabata: I'm sorry, what am I supposed to answer there?
Host: Well, just who is she?
Tabata: Ah. Well, her name is "Cid"-ney, so that should give you an idea. But in terms of who she is to the player, well, she isn't integral to the story, rather she's integral to the player's adventure – she's a mechanic who supports your travels. What she works on, you can probably guess [from the trailer]
Host: That's who she is.




Source:

http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xvs-director-breaks-down-the-newest-trail-1673513161


I do speak Japanese, by the way. Not that this would exclude a mistake but the director mentioning it and me understanding her name and seeing a picture where her name is written should be convincing. Shidonii has nothing to do with Cindy. Shi = Shi or Si, do = do or d, nii = n + long pronounced i = Cidney.

[Loony BoB]

Hadn't even seen that pic 'til just now. :shobon:

What I'd seen is the bit in the trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swfK8hnuplQ#t=108), and the pic of her and Gladiolus pictures at the start of this thread, and the screenshots of the trailer I just linked to. Honestly didn't even know there was more footage out!

As for what I find physically attractive regarding her: Hair, facial features, boobs, legs, general body shape. Clothes that highlight said features. What's not to like? And honestly? Yeah, dirt on the face. Hell yeah.

Personally, I can only hold my hands up at this point and say that you perceive sexualisation completely different to me and I disagree with your assessments. And I still have yet to be actually told what is a sexualised male, so what the hell can I do but go by what I am told by females? And as for saying what women find attractive: Hey, I'm going by what women have told me my entire life. It is legitimately news to me that you guys think something else is physically attractive than what I believe. Because wherever I go, girls talk about all these dudes and I'm going by what characteristics they have on display, and of course books based on studies (in case you're wondering, Shlup: Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps).

[Shorty]

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boobs were showing.

If Square wants to establish attractive female characters, it can obviously be done without showing off women's bodies.

Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/02/1412259555527_Image_galleryImage_Nick_Jonas_talks_chin_mus.JPG

Even so, I don't see how what I consider to be sexualized males has anything to do with this conversation. It is a fact that males are not sexualized in this game, plain and simple.

A simple dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he happens to have big muscles. End of story. It doesn't matter if "not all guys look like that" or if they look like models; so do all of the women in the games. Differentiating body types aren't being debated here (though maybe they should be). We're talking about sexualization based on how women are presented in these games.

[Depression Moon]

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

[Loony BoB]

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boob were showing.
I'm not going to complain if they make hot lookin' ladies, no. Is it ever necessary to do this? No. But they do it. I'm okay with that. They make hot lookin' dudes, I'm cool with that too. Boobs on display does increase physical attraction. This is one of the most commonly known things in the history of humankind and I'm shocked if you think it's not true.


Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/02/1412259555527_Image_galleryImage_Nick_Jonas_talks_chin_mus.JPG

Otherwise, sorry, but a dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he has big muscles. End of story.
Do you find that to be really physically attractive? If there were a character dressed like that, do you think he'd be really popular with the ladies? If so, throw him in, hell, I don't mind. But I've been told all my life that buff dudes (and that guy is muscular, don't kid yourself that Jonas has the physical condition of a regular bloke) in their underwear were not attractive. Especially when I watched WWF and WWE. So yeah, I've been coditioned by females to believe that this is not what women want.

Also, to go back to Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps, it generally backs up the theory that women just don't buy into this kind of thing like men do...

Nude male centerfolds come and go as women's magazines try to persuade us that women's attitudes to nudity are now the same as men's. These centrefolds vanish just as quickly as they appear, but it has been shown that they increase overall readership by gay men.

All attempts at selling porn to women have failed although, during the late 1990s, there was an increase in the sale of semi-naked male pin-up calendars, which ended up sout-stripping the sales of female nude calendars. The buyers of nude male calendars have been shown to fall into three categories - teenage girls who want pictures of their favourite movie or rock star, women who want it as a humorous joke for one of their friends, and gay men.

It just makes me feel like what lots of men find to be the peak of physical attraction (including but not limited to the showing of cleavage) is not the same as what women find to be the peak of physical attraction. I'm not saying that men can't find a covered up women attractive, we can. Nor am I saying that no women find near-nude dudes to be the peak of physical attraction, some obviously do. But I think Square Enix is going for the peak physical attraction for at least one of their characters in each of the games and I think for men and women that leads to very different results.

From what I've seen of the new video, I think it confirms further that she is sexualised but I also think that to assume that she is restricted to being a sex object and a sex object alone is on par with me saying the same for Gladiolus. I believe they've both been sexed up, I don't believe either will end up being nothing but sex objects.

[Fox]

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

Tabata confirmed that it's Cidney and that she plays the Cid role... but if the translation team miss the memo it's possible it is still possible end up being Cindy in the English version.

[Sephiroth]

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

Cindy is not her (the Magus Sisters one) Japanese name. They are called Mug, Dug and Rug so sisters not being shown would not say anything but she is Cidney.

[Shorty]

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boob were showing.
I'm not going to complain if they make hot lookin' ladies, no. Is it ever necessary to do this? No. But they do it. I'm okay with that. They make hot lookin' dudes, I'm cool with that too. Boobs on display does increase physical attraction. This is one of the most commonly known things in the history of humankind and I'm shocked if you think it's not true.


Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/02/1412259555527_Image_galleryImage_Nick_Jonas_talks_chin_mus.JPG

Otherwise, sorry, but a dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he has big muscles. End of story.
Do you find that to be really physically attractive? If there were a character dressed like that, do you think he'd be really popular with the ladies? If so, throw him in, hell, I don't mind. But I've been told all my life that buff dudes (and that guy is muscular, don't kid yourself that Jonas has the physical condition of a regular bloke) in their underwear were not attractive. Especially when I watched WWF and WWE. So yeah, I've been coditioned by females to believe that this is not what women want.

Also, to go back to Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps, it generally backs up the theory that women just don't buy into this kind of thing like men do...

Nude male centerfolds come and go as women's magazines try to persuade us that women's attitudes to nudity are now the same as men's. These centrefolds vanish just as quickly as they appear, but it has been shown that they increase overall readership by gay men.

All attempts at selling porn to women have failed although, during the late 1990s, there was an increase in the sale of semi-naked male pin-up calendars, which ended up sout-stripping the sales of female nude calendars. The buyers of nude male calendars have been shown to fall into three categories - teenage girls who want pictures of their favourite movie or rock star, women who want it as a humorous joke for one of their friends, and gay men.

It just makes me feel like what lots of men find to be the peak of physical attraction (including but not limited to the showing of cleavage) is not the same as what women find to be the peak of physical attraction. I'm not saying that men can't find a covered up women attractive, we can. Nor am I saying that no women find near-nude dudes to be the peak of physical attraction, some obviously do. But I think Square Enix is going for the peak physical attraction for at least one of their characters in each of the games and I think for men and women that leads to very different results.

From what I've seen of the new video, I think it confirms further that she is sexualised but I also think that to assume that she is restricted to being a sex object and a sex object alone is on par with me saying the same for Gladiolus. I believe they've both been sexed up, I don't believe either will end up being nothing but sex objects.

I personally do not find either Joe Jonas or those photos to be physically attractive, no. You asked me to provide a photo of a male being sexualized, and that is the photo I provided. A male being sexualized. And sorry, but Joe Jonas broke the internet with those photos the same way Kim Kardashian broke the internet with her ass photos, just to a lesser degree. You just weren't in the demographic it was directed at and thus and didn't hear about it.

As I said earlier, attraction does not equal sexualization. Which you seem to still be confusing with the rest of your post, so I really have nothing else to say on the matter, except that if you take advice on what ladies prefer pased on WWF and WWE, I feel sorry for you.

[Pumpkin]

BoB, here is something I would consider sexualization of men.

http://i.imgur.com/Cf5Nk.jpg

The men are muscular, nude (while covering their business), and also wearing hats to appeal to the "women like men in uniform" look. This image is pretty much there to sexualize those men. At least in my opinion. There's a difference between that and just a muscular dude in jeans, just like there's a difference between a curvy attractive lady and a curvy attractive lady with her boobs hanging out and groping herself, for example (not saying Cidney is doing that, just using it as an example)

[Loony BoB]

if you take advice on what ladies prefer based on WWF and WWE, I feel sorry for you.
No, that was just an example. I've been told my entire life that women don't like nudie dudies. Perhaps I have been misled, I dunno. I've also grown up in a house where my Mum would regularly draw female nudes because she felt the female body was beautiful, but rarely draw dudes the same way. This was a common theme throughout my life, especially in the art arena and through discussions online and in person.

What I can say I have learned today is that sexualisation isn't to you guys what it is/was to me. Sexualisation to me was making a character as sexy as possible (generally directed at, but not limited to, heterosexual members of the opposite gender) for no other reason than to make them as sexy as possible. For yourselves, it seems to be accentuating what are culturally defined as sexual organs - ie, breasts, bums and genitals.

It just so happens that for women, what I thought was sexualising generally ends up being exactly the same as what you guys refer to as sexualising. Not so much for men.

Essentially, things done to girls to make them appear as physically attractive to guys as possible involve sexualising the girl, because that is what, on a very raw level (like it or not) guys tend to find make a woman appear at her sexiest. I am pretty sure I'm not being sexist when I say this, but rather referring to biological and scientifically proven fact without the need to cite anything. If you really want me to, just ask, I'm sure I can find something. ;)

However, the things done to guys to make them appear as physically attractive to girls as possible do not involve stripping him to his tighty whities, because, well, women have been shown to not subscribe to that kind of thing. See the stuff mentioned earlier, the quote from the book for citation.

So I'll concede that, based on a differing viewpoint of what sexualisation actually is, I've misunderstood what you girls were complaining about, but at the same time I will suddenly say "But hold on, how many girls are actually sexualised in that kind of way?" We don't know about Cidney's personality, but it's safe to assume she's not going to be there purely to stand there bending over in provocative positions. If you focus on clothing (which you guys have said you aren't, but I'm just putting this in for my own train of thought, before you all jump on me :p), then Kimahri and co could be argued to be sexualised, when we all know that's not the case. That means it's entirely down to the emphasis on boobs. In which case I go back to my opinion of boobs not being such a freakin' big deal in the first place. They may be culturally unacceptable in some countries, but in my opinion a girl is allowed to show off her rack and it's perfectly fine, I don't count it on par with genitalia (and no FF babe has her genitalia defined to my knowledge, certainly no more than that of a guy). Finally, we go to job unsuitability and then we're back at square one again when I say "Guys don't wear job appropriate gear either, this is all being decided by some fashion chain."

It's frustrating to not really get my head around this, honestly I'm trying. Don't think my arguments are because I think you're terrible and wrong or anything, I'm legit trying to understand where you're coming from but the logic in my head doesn't really get it at the moment, and these linked sites are just so generalised that I find myself agreeing because Dead or Alive etc. are blatant sexualisation. But for Final Fantasy, I'm not seeing it the same way. I'm not rejecting your opinions, I'm just saying that I can only say what I think and/or agree with and so far the logic rollin' around in my head isn't piecing things together the same way you girls are. Maybe in time, I dunno, I'm just really confused and a little frustrated and not really seeing the same thing you ladies seem to be seeing, or not interpreting intention and/or results of said intention the same way.

If Cidney starts rubbing her boobs and moaning, or spends her entire time talking about sex, or something like that, then I will hold my hands in the air and say "You guys are right" but she hasn't done that.

...yet. :shifty:

[Lawr]

At first I was really excited to see a XV thread with almost 250 posts! Until I actually read the posts. :aimsad:

Well, I just hope they go with Cidney and not Cindy.

[Night Fury]

Khimari is not sexualised. There is a reason for him dressing like that - tribal, and his whole race dresses like that too.

[Aulayna]

It's frustrating to not really get my head around this, honestly I'm trying. Don't think my arguments are because I think you're terrible and wrong or anything, I'm legit trying to understand where you're coming from but the logic in my head doesn't really get it at the moment, and these linked sites are just so generalised that I find myself agreeing because Dead or Alive etc. are blatant sexualisation. But for Final Fantasy, I'm not seeing it the same way. I'm not rejecting your opinions, I'm just saying that I can only say what I think and/or agree with and so far the logic rollin' around in my head isn't piecing things together the same way you girls are. Maybe in time, I dunno, I'm just really confused and a little frustrated and not really seeing the same thing you ladies seem to be seeing, or not interpreting intention and/or results of said intention the same way.

If Cidney starts rubbing her boobs and moaning, or spends her entire time talking about sex, or something like that, then I will hold my hands in the air and say "You guys are right" but she hasn't done that.

...yet. :shifty:

Well let's remove all the concept and theory and put this out into face-value terms shall we?


What was that one phrase from most of the Versus XIII trailers right up until the rebranding to Final Fantasy XV?

This is a fantasy based on reality.

Now tell me, how many mechanics have you seen dressed like that in real life?

At least the clothes the guys are wearing are more believable as practical (if slightly exaggerated high-market) everyday fashion. (same with the likes of Luna and Stella)

But a mechanic dressed like that, really? You can't see why some people might feel it's a bit ludicrous? Might as well change her name to Cidney "The Mechanic" from Page 3 of The Sun.

Let me put a re-emphasis on that one point with a screenshot:

http://i.imgur.com/crZjbmy.jpg

Now then, imagine that Final Fantasy games had always had female protagonists and all the major characters were always female with males filling in for support characters and non-major NPCs. Cid in all the previous games was female too.

Then this new game comes along and goes "hey guys look Cid is male this time" and all he's wearing is a Borat G-string to show off his bulge, some goggles and has a few splashes of oil on his face to warrant being called a mechanic. Pretty unbelievable right?

This is the issue here, Cidney is the first time Cid has been female and she is a) not wearing attire remotely suitable for an actual mechanic (this would potentially be a minor point, but this is a game that's supposed to be more grounded in reality after all - and the other females we've seen like Luna and Stella are modestly dressed... one could even go so far as using the word "normally" dressed) and b) has huge boobs that are gratuitiously held out in what could only be described as a gravity defying push-up bra and c) has her midriff on display, wearing hotpants AND high heeled knee-high boots. So yay, Cid is female for a change - but also had to be overly sexualised as a result. Because just putting her into mechanics overalls (ala Kaylee from FireFly) would be far too unrealistic. Right?