Is Final Fantasy Dead?

[Pike]

In another thread ToriJ linked to a couple of articles:

Final Fantasy Is Dead: http://www.wired.com/2013/07/final-fantasy-is-dead/

Final Fantasy Is Still Dead: http://www.wired.com/2013/08/final-fantasy-is-still-dead/all/

I don't know if I agree. FFTA2 is one of the best games I've played and it came out just a few years ago.

FFXIV A Realm Reborn is super popular.

What do you guys think?

[Colonel Angus]

clickbait

don't feed the trolls

FF isn't dead. It's more alive than a lot of series people get excited about these days.

[Ayen]

I think the Final Fantasy that a lot of people grew up with is dead, and the newer games are more for a new generation of gamers. The article is basically telling us old goats to stop worrying about Final Fantasy making its big comeback and find our entertainment elsewhere. I saw the article as an eye opener honestly.

[Fynn]

Have you seen the thread about Cindy's boobs?

I don't think that's exactly what you'd call dead.

[Freya]

No, squall is dead. Get it right pike, gawd.

I don't think it's "dead" I think it isn't the power house it used to be. Before it was a console staple. Now it's just a long running series. I think their biggest mistake was the long time for XV and the pushing of the XIII series when a large amount of fans didn't like it. Now some fans LOVED it but, in my experience, a lot of them disliked it. So by ostracizing those long time fans not once but twice with two XIII sequels just pushed those dedicated fans away. Now they will mostly be relying on newer fans to carry the next entries.

[Pike]

I think the Final Fantasy that a lot of people grew up with is dead, and the newer games are more for a new generation of gamers. The article is basically telling us old goats to stop worrying about Final Fantasy making its big comeback and find our entertainment elsewhere.

I disagree, I am an older goat than most here and IMO most of the newer FF games are still worth playing - by both old and new fans alike. I also have pretty high hopes for FFXV.

[Laddy]

Final Fantasy is out of the Golden Age?

The games are still popular at least retroactively and FFXV and Type-0 have lots of fans excited. It's not dead as there is plenty of promise and excitement but it could be in further decline if they cannot regain their momentum.

[Ayen]

I don't think it's "dead" I think it isn't the power house it used to be. Before it was a console staple. Now it's just a long running series. I think their biggest mistake was the long time for XV and the pushing of the XIII series when a large amount of fans didn't like it. Now some fans LOVED it but, in my experience, a lot of them disliked it. So by ostracizing those long time fans not once but twice with two XIII sequels just pushed those dedicated fans away. Now they will mostly be relying on newer fans to carry the next entries.

Basically this.



I think the Final Fantasy that a lot of people grew up with is dead, and the newer games are more for a new generation of gamers. The article is basically telling us old goats to stop worrying about Final Fantasy making its big comeback and find our entertainment elsewhere.

I disagree, I am an older goat than most here and IMO most of the newer FF games are still worth playing - by both old and new fans alike. I also have pretty high hopes for FFXV.

I don't. A game in development hell that long is rarely good.

[Pike]

Eh, FF has always gotten itself a new fanbase on a regular basis. How many people came into the series with FFVII? A lot. How many came into it with FFX? A lot. One glance at Tumblr even reveals a ton of people who came into it with FFXIII.

As much as I like to give playful flak to younger gamers, I can't deny that I'm in the minority as a 30-something gamer who is both a.) old enough to remember when the first Final Fantasy was new, and b.) still playing a great deal of video games. Most people my age are doing things like, you know, having kids, and often (though not always) gaming time is the first thing to go.

I wonder if older fans (by which I mean people much older than me) had these concerns when FFVII first came out - that it was alienating the original fans. I've seen old newsgroup posts from gamers in the 80s and 90s who thought that the NES was ruining gaming. And then thought that the SNES was ruining gaming. I reckon you can find all sorts of tears from the past about older FF games.

[Galuf]

. One glance at Tumblr even reveals a ton of people who came into it with FFXIII.



aye too bad i was one of them who entered through xiii:erm:. though all the prior ones are wayyy better:jess:.

[Pumpkin]

A lot of people absolutely adore XIII, and I personally didn't think it was bad. I like XIV a lot. I dunno how XV will be. But I don't think its dead

[Sephex]

Yeah, this whole thing should have been called, "FF Games Aren't Like They Were For The SNES and PS1 Anymore And I'm Upset About That." Granted, I prefer those days, but I wouldn't call the series dead. It just no longer has the clout or significance that it used to.

[Colonel Angus]

I think the Final Fantasy that a lot of people grew up with is dead, and the newer games are more for a new generation of gamers. The article is basically telling us old goats to stop worrying about Final Fantasy making its big comeback and find our entertainment elsewhere.

I disagree, I am an older goat than most here and IMO most of the newer FF games are still worth playing - by both old and new fans alike. I also have pretty high hopes for FFXV.
That's true. 3 out of my top 5~ are from the PS2 era. X probably had the best battle system in the series & XII the best world. X-2 did the job system right.

If anyone who's developing FFXVI is reading this, take those three things into account.

それは本当だ。 〜5私のトップのうち3はPS2時代からのものである。 Xは、おそらくシリーズ＆XII最高の世界で最高の戦闘システムを持っていた。 X-2は、ジョブ·システムの右をした。


FFXVIの開発だ、誰がこれを読んでいる場合は、考慮にこれらの3つの事を取る。

[DanielCLFFF13]

http://rs2img.memecdn.com/you-keep-using-that-word-i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means_o_1683091.jpg
http://magazine.nicktv.it/files/2015/01/Spongebob-Piange-6.gif

I just hope not, I only knew Final Fantasy for only about 2 years. And Final Fantasy is like the best game series ever (in my opinion, especially Final Fantasy XIII sequel :)) If they do, I'll be pretty disappointed.

But this is my opinion :)

[Ayen]

Eh, FF has always gotten itself a new fanbase on a regular basis. How many people came into the series with FFVII? A lot. How many came into it with FFX? A lot. One glance at Tumblr even reveals a ton of people who came into it with FFXIII.

As much as I like to give playful flak to younger gamers, I can't deny that I'm in the minority as a 30-something gamer who is both a.) old enough to remember when the first Final Fantasy was new, and b.) still playing a great deal of video games. Most people my age are doing things like, you know, having kids, and often (though not always) gaming time is the first thing to go.

I wonder if older fans (by which I mean people much older than me) had these concerns when FFVII first came out - that it was alienating the original fans. I've seen old newsgroup posts from gamers in the 80s and 90s who thought that the NES was ruining gaming. And then thought that the SNES was ruining gaming. I reckon you can find all sorts of tears from the past about older FF games.

Except FFVII is actually responsible for putting the series into the mainstream. FFXIII pave the way for two expensive sequels that didn't sell anywhere near as good as any of their predecessors. So I don't see how these things are comparable. The dip in sales are right there in the second link.


Yeah, this whole thing should have been called, "FF Games Aren't Like They Were For The SNES and PS1 Anymore And I'm Upset About That."

Not enough characters.

[The Man]

I certainly haven't had interest in any of the entries in the series for about nine years; XII is the last game released in the series (in the West anyway) that I liked the looks of, and I still haven't gotten around to playing it yet, so make of that what you will. I don't know if it's dead, but it's mostly evolved in a direction that doesn't interest me much. XV might be good, but as Tori pointed out, the development hell does not bode well. Type-0 might also be good, but in both cases it doesn't matter too much because I don't have a PS4 and am not likeky to get one anytime soon. And as for XIV, it may be a good game but I have zero interest in MMORPGs.

So yeah, the series might not be "dead", but I don't have too much interest in it either.

[Pike]

It's occurred to me that I might be looking at it differently than you guys. When I play an FF game I'm really just looking for a silly, familiar game to play when I feel like playing a grindy JRPG. I'm not exactly looking for a huge masterpiece or ~experience~ or anything. They're just games I play when I want to go back to something familiar and relax for a bit. As far as I'm concerned Square is still delivering those types of games and FFXV is looking like a similarly silly, lighthearted game.

If you see Final Fantasy as a more "epic" series than I can see where your disappointment is coming from. It's just not really how I see FF. (And I don't mean this in a bad way at all, by the way.)

[Galuf]

final fantasy aint dead. but sadly a few of their creations are :(

list of dead characters in comparison of "dead" ff games

those 3 dudes from ff2
Tellah
Galuf :(
Aeris
dead FF games:
FFXII
FF XIII ( 2 and LR)
( there may be more dead playable characters in FF but i only know these ones. and "dead " ff games are up to opinion. i just went with general looks. however 12 might not be dead at all)


this is more random stuff from me so dont ask what the point of this thing was about idk.

[Ayen]

It's occurred to me that I might be looking at it differently than you guys. When I play an FF game I'm really just looking for a silly, familiar game to play when I feel like playing a grindy JRPG. I'm not exactly looking for a huge masterpiece or ~experience~ or anything. They're just games I play when I want to go back to something familiar and relax for a bit. As far as I'm concerned Square is still delivering those types of games and FFXV is looking like a similarly silly, lighthearted game.

If you see Final Fantasy as a more "epic" series than I can see where your disappointment is coming from. It's just not really how I see FF. (And I don't mean this in a bad way at all, by the way.)

Yeah, I see what you're saying. My thing is I just want an enjoyable game to play. My angry hate filled speeches notwithstanding I'm actually not a hard guy to please. I'll go to a movie and enjoy it even if most people who thought about it for more than two seconds ripped it limp from limp, so when I play a game like FFXIII and not enjoy it I'm just confused. Because I know it doesn't take that much for me to be content, so what's the problem? What am I missing?

But I was looking at these articles from more of a business standpoint because those sales numbers were concerning, and I already know Lightning Returns did even worse than XIII-2. So either the FFXIII fans aren't buying the game or that fanbase isn't as large as some would have us believe and they couldn't have made back what they put into making those sequels (the amount of money that goes into AAA games in general is just ridiculous btw). I admit those articles are a bit out of date. I don't know how much ARR has made since then. I hope that clear things up. I just want the Chiefs to go to the Super Bowl one more time.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

Final Fantasy isn't dead, but I do feel like the Square I knew and loved has been on the decline for a while now. The PS1 era really brought about some interesting projects that you just don't see from the company anymore. I feel like most of the more experimental things they do end up having to have a connection to FF or another big name before they feel comfortable releasing them. There are some exceptions (like Bravely Default and The World Ends With You), but I miss the days where we were getting the likes of Ehrgeiz, Einhander, Musashi, Vagrant Story, Xenogears, etc etc.

In the end, XIII has been the only real slip up as a game to me. XIII-2 was a heck of a lot of fun. Lightning Returns was a little less fun, but it had a pretty interesting world and was still enjoyable. XIII isn't even absolutely terrible, it's just not one I personally enjoyed very much. XIV is fantastic. Type-0 looks fantastic. XV looks great, and they've even been improving as a company with the communication they've been giving on development for that game. I think if XV comes out and bombs, we might be at a point where we could start considering the possibility of FF being dead. It could also very well be the resurgence of an RPG powerhouse. You never know.

[Depression Moon]

I was going to ignore this thread because its a major repeated, but hell no how can it be dead when we get constant games in the series? You want to know what a real dead franchise looks like? Megaman, Banjo, and Def Jam.

[Lazerface]

Nah it ain't dead. Alive and kicking.

[Loony BoB]

Final Fantasy is not dead, it is simply doing what it always has done: Shaking things up each iteration so that the gameplay is markedly different and therefore picking up new fans, encouraging innovation in the industry, disenchanting some fans who expect every game to be exactly like the one they loved most and all the other usual things. The only key difference is the development time, which is a concern. But as far as the games go, little has changed but the technology and the freedoms and limitations said technology allows. Every Final Fantasy game in recent years has had it's criticism. The longer time between development, the longer there is for fans to overhype the game in their heads and to criticise it after it's released because another FF hasn't replaced it in their minds.

Thankfully, like Pike, I just enjoy them for what they are. =] Fun video games.

[VeloZer0]

it is simply doing what it always has done: Shaking things up each iteration so that the gameplay is markedly different
Actually between FF1 and FF9 they only shook things up with the gameplay once with the introduction of ATB over Turn Based. While games have always had innovation and change the idea that they have to completely re-invent the wheel every game is most certainly not a series staple.

[Loony BoB]

I disagree. Yes, the way people's turns in battle are picked out wasn't shaken up too much in that time, but other aspects of gameplay were notably changed. If you name any two Final Fantasy games (preferably those I've finished!), I can pinpoint a large number of differences between them, from the levelling up system, the job system, how magic is learned/obtained, the technological era, all kinds of things. Compare that with most other games (again, the shooter genres are worst for this) and you'll find that Final Fantasy does mix things up to a considerable degree, often doing things that have not been done before.

[Del Murder]

Final Fantasy isn't dead since they are still making Final Fantasy games. However, it has a lot different meaning than it used to have. Square was once a company that made high quality JRPGs with the FF label being reserved for the highest quality and most cutting edge of these games. Now, FF has become more of SE's general brand of JRPG games as the company has diversified significantly and produces a more wide variety titles, such as cell phone and action games. So the FF label does not have the power or significance it once had and it is indeed 'dead' if you compare it to what it used to stand for.

SE has always been a for-profit company but I believe in the past their philosophy was 'make great games, and the profits will follow.' These days, I feel like the philosophy is more of a general 'how can we make the most money?' Sure, making quality games is still a great way to make money and they still try to do that, but it's not the sole focus and they've opened up to other methods of generating revenue, such as casting a wider net with their FF brand and having microtransactions. This has resulted in success with new audiences but their core audience has been alienated by brand dilution and movement away from their historical pricing and development models.

[VeloZer0]

Yes, they mix up the character/party development systems every entry, I don't think anyone would dispute that. But somehow this got transmuted into the idea that they had to completely change how the battles work every game. Which didn't really have any precedent, and IMO significantly slows down the turn around time of each entry for exceedingly little return.

(Well, from my point of view it is a negative return because they by and large produce systems that aren't as good as ATB or Turn Based to begin with.)

[Del Murder]

And part of the problem is that they no longer make non-FF RPGs where they can try out these ideas, thus keeping the changes in the main FF entries a little more focused, as had been in the past. Case in point: Versus/FFXV. Was supposed to be a spinoff game with a different feel than the traditional FF, but due to their eroding commitment to being the defining JRPG developer in the word, it was eventually reskinned to be the next main entry in the series.

It will be some time before we (if ever) see a main console FF entry that is conceptualized as such from start to finish. That's why I'm hoping that Ito-FFXVI conspiracy theory is true.

[Wolf Kanno]

Final Fantasy isn't dead since they are still making Final Fantasy games. However, it has a lot different meaning than it used to have. Square was once a company that made high quality JRPGs with the FF label being reserved for the highest quality and most cutting edge of these games. Now, FF has become more of SE's general brand of JRPG games as the company has diversified significantly and produces a more wide variety titles, such as cell phone and action games. So the FF label does not have the power or significance it once had and it is indeed 'dead' if you compare it to what it used to stand for.

SE has always been a for-profit company but I believe in the past their philosophy was 'make great games, and the profits will follow.' These days, I feel like the philosophy is more of a general 'how can we make the most money?' Sure, making quality games is still a great way to make money and they still try to do that, but it's not the sole focus and they've opened up to other methods of generating revenue, such as casting a wider net with their FF brand and having microtransactions. This has resulted in success with new audiences but their core audience has been alienated by brand dilution and movement away from their historical pricing and development models.

62182

[Loony BoB]

And part of the problem is that they no longer make non-FF RPGs where they can try out these ideas, thus keeping the changes in the main FF entries a little more focused, as had been in the past.
Did they ever do this, though? You say they try things elsewhere in the past, in other non-FF RPGs, but I have never heard of this happening. My belief was that all the systems they introduced over the years were introduced in a Final Fantasy game.

As for ATB, I'm not sure sticking with it would have continued to win fans over in the long run, nor random battles. I quite like the new battle system compared to the older ones, and I think it's a step in the right direction. I don't think they've perfected it by any means, but I think that a mix between turn based and action is still the way to go. It's hard to come up with the perfect system, though. I like being able to move around on a battlefield, but also like turn based attacks. MMOs and FFXII fit this, but MMOs have you only controlling a single character and FFXII's gambit system was just not something I enjoyed at all. ATB is still cool for some games but when I played Lost Odyssey I did feel the battles were somewhat dull, and I can certainly understand why so many people pre-FFXII/XIII were crying out for a change in battle system in order to reach out to new fans. XII and XIII were two attempts to get past that and both have fans, but both also got criticism too. Finding the perfect balance is a tricky thing when you have so many people who will all throw out criticism if it's something they don't like. In the end, sometimes I feel that SE are damned no matter what they do with a FF battle system. If they stick with turn based, they get criticised. If they switch to gambits, they get criticised. If they try the paradigm system, they get criticised. D'oh!

As for microtransactions: I can't think of many companies (actually I can't think of any personally off the top of my head) that don't do these. I think that's more of a criticism towards game developers in general. I can see the pros and cons for microtransactions. On the one hand I hate them and refuse to pay for the majority of them unless I feel I like a game so much that I'd have paid more and still felt it was "worth it" in the first place. On the other hand, I can understand that many things they put into games simply couldn't be done in the first place if they didn't have microtransactions to pay for the development of them, especially if they are AAA games that require so much work in the first place. So I'm very conflicted on them in general. xD

[Del Murder]

And part of the problem is that they no longer make non-FF RPGs where they can try out these ideas, thus keeping the changes in the main FF entries a little more focused, as had been in the past.
Did they ever do this, though? You say they try things elsewhere in the past, in other non-FF RPGs, but I have never heard of this happening. My belief was that all the systems they introduced over the years were introduced in a Final Fantasy game.
Front Mission, Vagrant Story, Chrono Cross, the Mana series, Saga series, Parasite Eve, etc.

[Wolf Kanno]

To expand on what Del is referring to, Secret of Mana was the first game to really utilize the Mode 7 effect to create a pseudo 3D world map, a program later used in FFVI for great effect. Hell, technically the open ended nature of VI and CT was accidentally created in Mana as it's possible to do most of the last third of the game in any order as long as you know where to go without pushing the story mode making the whole scene with Sage Joch pretty amusing...

The SaGa franchise would also utilize gameplay mechanics that eventually found their way into the FF titles and vice versa. Games like Brave Fencer Musashi used boss battles where you're running from an enemy that got incorporated into VIII's running from the Spider Mech as well as Squaesoft's first foray into Voice acting. The interactive gunblade mechanic from VIII got it's origins from Square's work on Mario RPG. Chrono Cross' battle system is a variation of Xenogears system, several monster and architectural designs in XII are almost lifted verbatim from Vagrant Story. The Bouncer served as a trial run for the visual design for FFX and FFVII's use of different gameplay and minigames to freshen and involve the player more into the game traces itself back to Chrono Trigger which itself traces back to FFVI. You could see a lot of cross-pollination in the old days which ended after the merger.