So DS9

[Pumpkin]

Sharky has started watching it. I know some of you like it (Pike?) so you can discuss it with me and tell me how wrong my opinions are

There's too much grey and that Dr. guy is an absolutely atrocious actor. I'm told he improves later on but my goodness so far

I only like on character so far. And Chief O Brian is okay. I feel like he hangs around too much now. Sure its his job or whatever, but its weird




There has been no Data :stare:

[Freya]

I haven't got there ye and haven't watch it in ages! Give me a few months and i'll be there with you! I have to finish TOS, Animated, TNG, THEN DS9. I'm excited though :excited:

[Pumpkin]

Took us over a year to get through TNG xD

Mostly because we stopped for like 4 months at the last season because I refused to move on

I'm starting to see I was right :colbert:

[sharkythesharkdogg]

It's Ops. Base Operations. He "hangs out there" because he's the chief engineer and it's his job. :lol: Poor fella. He's part of the command crew now, so you'll see him as often as you saw Geordi.


I think it was cool because it reflects how to move up and get promoted, you have to move around. So since Geordi wasn't going anywhere, O'Brien went to DS9. Continuity.

Also, Colm Meaney seems nice enough from what I know. It was good to see him get a bigger part, and stick with a franchise across two shows.

I'm curious to see how long you like Jadzia. I wasn't expecting you to like her for what ever reason.

[Pike]

There's too much grey

Gray as in color or morality? Because if you're talking about morality then you are NOT gonna like DS9. :p

Characters definitely take a season or two to grow on you. Then you love 'em.

[Pumpkin]

She seems pretty normal so far. She's not in your face or loud or obnoxious. Heck she barely talks. Its refreshing because I find most of this cast to be too in your face about their personalities. Except the main dude, but I dunno I just don't really care about him that much. I don't dislike him either, he's kinda just there



There's too much grey

Gray as in color or morality? Because if you're talking about morality then you are NOT gonna like DS9. http://home.eyesonff.com/images/eoff_smilies/tongue.gif

Colour. Just grey everywhere

[Pike]

She seems pretty normal so far. She's not in your face or loud or obnoxious. Heck she barely talks. Its refreshing because I find most of this cast to be too in your face about their personalities. Except the main dude, but I dunno I just don't really care about him that much. I don't dislike him either, he's kinda just there

Oh god if that's why you like Jadzia then you are not gonna like her later on in the series when she turns into a full Klingon/Ferengi in a Trill's body.

[Pumpkin]

uuughhhhhh


what is that combination? Is she going to be like a proud capitalist?

[Pike]

IMO it's really refreshing. I guess in the first season they wanted her to be more of a demure sage type of character but I feel like that would have been really overdone for a pretty female character. So after that they reshape her into more of a fun-loving character who can go toe-to-toe with Klingons and Ferengi. It's pretty unique and I like it a lot.

[Madame Adequate]

DS9 definitely takes a little while to get going and honestly, fun as it is, season 1 feels like amateur hour quite a bit. Once everyone gets themselves settled the show gets much much better and within a couple of season you'll start seeing some really solid episodes and find yourself caring, in different ways, about everyone.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Yeah, right not Bashir is really grating on her. Which is the point. He's well intentioned, but way too naive. Maybe they sold it too hard in the first season, but meh, he develops as time goes by anyway. So, while the actor maybe doesn't have the best chops, he's at least getting the main point of the character across.

I keep telling her that the station is so drab looking because old Cardassian military outpost. She also didn't like how the station looked so much less advanced than the Enterprise. Also because old Cardassian military outpost. :p

[Pumpkin]

I don't care about the reason. If I move in to a house with holes in the walls and the person is like "Yeah they were cage fighters" it doesn't change the fact that THERE ARE HOLES IN THE WALLS

And I don't actually care much about his character. He doesn't seem like a bad dude, just unsure of himself. It literally is the actor that I can't stand. He makes it impossible to get immersed in any of his scenes because he is so bad. I've been reading and not even paying attention and then he comes on and I can't even focus on my book. That's how bad of an actor he is right now :colbert:

Most shows are rough the first season, so I'll give it more of a chance. Right now I'm not a huge fan

[Pike]

Alexander Siddig is a wonderful actor which is why he's going to be on Game of Thrones this season!

I don't think we can be friends anymore :mymelbert:

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Dude, seriously Steph. He's become a good actor, but go back and watch episodes like Move Along Home. It's pretty rough/funny.

Also, they're fixing the station!!!! Every episode O'Brien (who you hate for working so hard ;__;) is there trying to address all the problems. It takes time.

[Pumpkin]

What was that one episode? The Passenger. Awful awful acting

I DON'T HATE HIM HE'S JUST AROUND MORE THAN I AM ACCUSTOMED TO AND ITS WEIRD AND HE FEELS OUT OF PLACE

[Pike]

Dude, seriously Steph. He's become a good actor, but go back and watch episodes like Move Along Home. It's pretty rough/funny.

In fairness this is one of the worst episodes in the entire show and EVERYONE in it was being a terrible actor when they shot it

[Slothy]

Dude, seriously Steph. He's become a good actor, but go back and watch episodes like Move Along Home. It's pretty rough/funny.

In fairness this is one of the worst episodes in the entire show and EVERYONE in it was being a terrible actor when they shot it

It would take an exceptionally dumb actor not to realize how dumb that episode was and try to put in a performance that wasn't dumb. And the performance would be more dumb because of it.

[Del Murder]

I started watching DS9 too and it's been entertaining enough to pass the time while I feed my twins but nothing special. I'm trying to skip through the first season and only watch the more relevant episodes.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Dude, seriously Steph. He's become a good actor, but go back and watch episodes like Move Along Home. It's pretty rough/funny.

In fairness this is one of the worst episodes in the entire show and EVERYONE in it was being a terrible actor when they shot it

It would take an exceptionally dumb actor not to realize how dumb that episode was and try to put in a performance that wasn't dumb. And the performance would be more dumb because of it.

The cheese episodes are the best episodes. You guys don't know nothin'. 'bout anything.

[Madame Adequate]

DS9 has episodes like Move Along Home which is one of the worst Trek episodes ever in a good Trek series (only the last one of season 2 of TNG is worse tbh), but then you have episodes like Duet, In The Pale Moonlight, Far Beyond The Stars, Once More Unto The Breach, and The Visitor, to say nothing of the super hardcore ten-episode arc that rounds out the series. But they also do silly episodes here and there that are still really great, like Our Man Bashir, Trials and Tribble-ations, and Little Green Men.

[Slothy]

Little Green Men is spectacular.

[Ayen]

There's a lot of gray, I'll give you that. I kind of like the gray in their uniforms, though.

[Pike]

Far Beyond The Stars and Trials and Tribble-ations are, I think, my two favorite episodes in the entire Star Trek canon, period. And TNG had some amazing stuff, but, just... dang DS9 just wins here for individual episodes.

[Crop]

DS9 definitely takes a little while to get going

tbh this is the case with most of Star Trek.

TNG only really got going after a couple of seasons, and looking back seasons 1 + 2 aren't worth watching much.

Voyager only managed to string together some good stuff after Seven of Nine came in (not just because of the character, but the events that surrounded her), that said, there were a couple of episodes prior that were worth watching - The Thaw springs to mind.

Enterprise should have been cancelled after season one or two, but objectively speaking, they cancelled it after the best run the show had had.


tl;dr - give DS9 a chance.

[Pike]

Just watched the series finale of DS9 today. So sad to see it end. :whimper: It's such a good, good series and you get soooo attached to the characters. :crying:

[chionos]

You'll like it if you can stick with it, Pump. I've said it before on EoFF, but it bears repeating, DS9 has some of the best characterizations in all of Star Trek. It has several of the best female characters, Worf 2.0, the Ferengi trio, and the absolute best villains. The writing does have its ups and downs but the ups are totally worth it.

[Ayen]

I'm curious if anyone here felt the last season dipped in quality compared to the first six. I remember a review I watched online a long time ago where the critic troutted all over the final season. Then again, he also thought "2001: A Space Odyssey" was a show about nothing so I take everything he says with a pinch of salt, but I'm still curious.

[Pike]

Seeing as I considered the first few seasons to be fairly weak, then no, the last season was certainly not a dip in quality of any sort.

That said, Seasons 5 and 6 were probably the two best seasons of the show. But that doesn't mean season 7 was bad.

[Slothy]

It would be extremely difficult for the last season to be worse than the first. Not that I'd listen to the opinions of someone who thought 2001 was about nothing anyway.

[Loony BoB]

Ctrl+F

Odo

Not one result

What the

What is wrong with you people

ODO IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS ODO ODO ODO

But yeah, season one meh, but it's all about the Odo. O'Brien is cool too. Agree regarding how Jadzia gets better and better. Also, however, agree that the doc is perhaps the worst character of the main group. Give it at least one season of the Dominion stuff and things will start to really pick up.

Love the Cardassian appearance, too. Always have. The Ingmar race in Aiyon (see sig!) is partially inspired by them when it comes to appearance.

[Pike]

Agreed on Odo being one of the best characters in the show but Bashir is amazing. The relationship between him and O'Brien is one of the highlights of the entire series.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Pumpkin pointed out this episode (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Passenger_%28episode%29) where Bashir gets possessed by the transferred consciousness of some Kobliad convict/evil scientist guy.

His attempt at a personality shift when he gets possessed is wonderful. I love it.

The first seasons are the best seasons in all Star Treks. :colbert:

[Omni-Odin]

By far my favorite Star Trek series. Doesn't even come close. And lol if you think Bashir is a bad actor. Have you watched a single episode of Voyager? If not, don't.

Sorry btw. Bashir is one of my favorite ST characters, so I tend to get defensive.

But ya, give the show a shot. It's crazy how large the plot becomes within a matter of a couple seasons. Also think it has the best cast. Bashir and O'Brien bro love, Jadzia Dax, Quark, eventually Worf, Odo. God I just finished watching it and I want to go do it again.

[Pumpkin]

There is an episode I was quite sensitive about because it hit a sore spot and I haven't gone back and watched it. Sharky told me it wasn't as assholish as it first appeared but I left so I didn't see the whole thing. Might give it a try again later

[Madame Adequate]

May I ask which episode it was? I'm curious, I remember a couple that missed the mark, but I don't really recall any which actually had bad messages or anything. Not trying to say your reaction was wrong or anything, I'm just wondering :p

[Pumpkin]

Oh there was an episode where O'Brian's wife was teaching and a mother comes in and is like "this is blasphemy" and whatever. And at first all the faithful people were shown as being aggressive, disagreeable, and inflexible, while those not of faith (or different faith maybe?) we seen as being calm, defusing the situation, willing to work with it and compromise.

It hit me hard because lately a lot of what I see is either crazy fanatics who give us all a bad name or people who assume we're all crazy fanatics and treat us like idiots. It felt like it was another jab at religious people. It just gets frustrating you know? So I left because it was making me sad and well its a TV show so I don't really have to sit there and be sad

sharky tells me the episode went on to correct the stuff shown at the beginning and that the message is you can have jerks on both sides of the issue. I haven't seen it though, but I do appreciate if they went that direction in the end

[sharkythesharkdogg]

It's the season finale where Videk Winn (a high level religious leader) shows up and starts aggressively questioning Keiko's curriculum right in the middle of class, and starts spreading fear and xenophobia around the Bajoran populace.


Keiko's school is eventually bombed, and things become extremely hostile between station personnel and the Bajoran citizens who have joined behind Winn.

Later Videk Bareil (another high level religious leader) shows up to give a more true representation of the Bajoran religion, and there's a scene where Jake begins to vent at the stupidity of the Bajoran faithful, and faithful in general, and how their backwards beliefs lead to hate and bigotry. Sisko points out that his own views of the Bajorans due to his contempt for their views parallels to Bajoran extremists. He wars his son not to fall into the same traps the Bajoran extremists have established when viewing them from the other side.

In the end, it's established that Winn was encouraging the violent protests and attacks on the station to lure out Bareil (her biggest rival, and the most likely candidate to be the next Kai. For like of a better term, the next Pope.). Once lured to the station, Winn had convinced one of her extremists faithful to assassinate him. The plot eventually fails.



It does focus on a corrupt sect of a religion, and how religion, like other powerful institutes can be corrupted even by those who are supposed to represent it's teachings by living most righteously. It also showed how true practitioners of a faith should try and react in the face of that, and also how others not of that faith should withhold judgement of the entire faith, and avoid the pitfalls of developing a superiority complex over those they deem less enlightened. In falling into that trap they become no better, just extremists from the other side.

They've had episodes where people have been corrupted for other reasons, but I can see how this one could be pretty sensitive to some folks.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

And lol if you think Bashir is a bad actor. Have you watched a single episode of Voyager? If not, don't.

Sorry btw. Bashir is one of my favorite ST characters, so I tend to get defensive.


Pumpkin can attest to the fact that I've defended both the actor and the character as developing strongly as time goes by, but I stand by the fact that the first season he is pretty campy. Not trying to offend, I like the Dr. Just discussing opinions.

Of course I've seen Voyager, it's great. The actors are also ridiculous sometimes. It comes with the territory of being a TV show.

Some of the dramas Pumpkin likes have ridiculous acting. IMO. People still love 'em.

[Pumpkin]

Pretty sure 90210 has the best acting ever

[Omni-Odin]

And lol if you think Bashir is a bad actor. Have you watched a single episode of Voyager? If not, don't.

Sorry btw. Bashir is one of my favorite ST characters, so I tend to get defensive.


Pumpkin can attest to the fact that I've defended both the actor and the character as developing strongly as time goes by, but I stand by the fact that the first season he is pretty campy. Not trying to offend, I like the Dr. Just discussing opinions.

No, I completely agree. That's how I felt about all the DS9 characters at first actually. Some of Sisko's acting is way over the top sometimes. In fact, the first season felt full of forced interactions and relationships. It's the growing pains of any new show.

I was just trying to convey that he becomes a great character and really matures as an actor. I didn't mean to come off as :argh:

[Pike]

I think overall the Bajoran religion is dealt with really respectfully in the show and it actually becomes a major major part of Sisko's character arc because of [spoilers]. Vedek Winn is just battrout crazy, which ends in [spoilers] by the end of the show. She's also not the only person who goes battrout crazy by the end of the series. [Spoilers spoilers!]

[chionos]

Yeah, Pumpkin, I think religion is handled rather well in DS9. I mean, especially for science fiction. The evolution of the story and the cast as the series goes forward is really amazingly equatable. I think that's why I love it so much. It's not black & white, all sides are given a fair say and the show doesn't tell the audience what to think. Thing is, there are people like Winn. There really are people who use religion to their own gain, and it's important to show that. But DS9 also shows that despite there being people like Winn, those people don't represent the entire religion. It's actually a really positive message in the end. I thought the show was just going to bash religion, too, but it's really not about that, I promise.

[Pumpkin]

I'm going to give it another try because sharky told me the same. I didn't watch the whole episode because why would I sit there and watch something for entertainment that upsets me xD I wasn't looking for something deeper, you know? Just got to be a sore spot because of all the religion bashing I see going on and the actual crazy religious people and it gets pretty frustrating, so I was pretty touchy about it

But I'll give it another try

[Ayen]

Odo and Quark banter is the best.

[Pike]

Odo and Quark banter. O'Brien and Bashir banter. Garak and everyone banter. This show is fantastic.

[chionos]

Odo and Quark banter. O'Brien and Bashir banter. Garak and everyone banter. This show is fantastic.

Not just Odo and Quark's banter, but their relationship as the show progresses is just wonderful.

Garak and everyone banter, yes exactly.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Garak and Gul Dukat banter is always entertaining.

[chionos]

Garak and Gul Dukat banter is always entertaining.

If I ever go to a Trek convention, I'm cosplaying as Gul Dukat. Without question.

[Slothy]

Garak and Nog after a certain point in the series is also amusing.

[Pike]

Nog has such a good character arc. When you start the show you wouldn't guess it but he really comes out of nowhere with a lot of growth.

[Madame Adequate]

Ah, I know the exact episode you mean Shion, and I can totally understand why you felt that way about it. It was perhaps unfortunate to establish Winn's character in that way because the show, as a whole over the seven seasons, is very respectful of religion and treats the Bajoran religion in particular as a vital part of their culture and that this, overall, is a good thing.

However, there are also people within that faith who aren't perfect - Kira's deeply faithful but more than one episode shows she's not the most forgiving or merciful of people - misguided - There's a later episode where a Vedek is talking about some prophecy and he has completely misunderstood it - and pretty much straight up evil - Kai Winn encouraged division to try to get Bareil out of the way. Possibly the only major religious character who is portrayed as genuinely and wholly good is Bareil, but the show definitely skews more towards "People are the problem, not religion" rather than the reverse.

I would definitely encourage you to give it a chance as the show very much improves in that regard, and as a non-religious person it didn't occur to me until you brought it up, but there may have been better ways to introduce Winn without giving the appearance of condemning religion itself.

Also, all the banter in the show is great, but Miles and Julian's friendship is the best of all. Getting drunk and singing Jerusalem, being HUGE NERDS in their holosuite vidyas, all that stuff, it's by far the most mundanely human - and thus the most genuine and most effective - friendship in all of Trek.

PS:
62315

[Pumpkin]

I wouldn't want them to portray faithful people as all being good just because they're religious either, that would be just as stupid to me. Or if they were portraying non-religious people as all immoral jerks or something, that would also be pretty offensive as well. I'm a strong believer in individual merit when it comes to that kind of thing. I'm not going to assume someone is a good person because of their religious views, but I'm not also going to assume they're a bad person either, you know? That's why it gets to me when people are lumped together like that. Ask sharky and he can tell you the number of times I've raged at hearing atheists called immoral and bad because they don't believe in God. It's offensive from both sides.

The way it was presented at first made it seem like that's what they were doing so I was hurt by it, but I'm glad people have told me that it wasn't like that and what they were trying to show. I appreciate the message more now

[Madame Adequate]

Oh, yeah, sorry - I wasn't trying to imply that was how you wanted them to be portrayed, I was just highlighting that the show is more complex and realistic in that regard than the introduction of Winn episode would suggest.

[Pumpkin]

No I understand, I was just specifying in case anyone thought that that's what I was expecting :p

[chionos]

Garak and Nog after a certain point in the series is also amusing.


Nog has such a good character arc. When you start the show you wouldn't guess it but he really comes out of nowhere with a lot of growth.

Nog has perhaps the strongest growth of any of the characters, and on a show with so many examples of good characterization, that's pretty huge. Aron Eisenberg fucking killed it in some of his later episodes. I also liked Nog with Miles.

[Slothy]

I always enjoy pretty much every time that Nog exceeds someone's expectations. "Oh, you want me to do that cargo bay inventory that normally takes a team of people 1 or 2 days to do by myself? I'll have it to you by morning."

[chionos]

I always enjoy pretty much every time that Nog exceeds someone's expectations. "Oh, you want me to do that cargo bay inventory that normally takes a team of people 1 or 2 days to do by myself? I'll have it to you by morning."

He's not the smartest, or the most talented, but he's hardworking and determined. For an alien, he's very human, or a good example of how to be human. Raw ability means nothing if you don't use it. Conversely, being different, being "slow," coming from a different background with no opportunities, can't stop a person if they stay determined and work at what they want to do/be. So yeah, exactly Vivi. I enjoyed that the character exceeded my expectations, because I thought he was going to be an annoying twerp to the end.

[Pumpkin]

Who's Nog

[Pike]

Rom's son. He's the Ferengi kid who pals around with Jake.

[Pumpkin]

Oh okay

[chionos]

Lol, sorry pumpkin. You won't really see him develop for a while.

[Pumpkin]

Kids are like that I guess. Waiting to grow up before they grow up. So lame

[Madame Adequate]

Yeah, for quite awhile Nog is just a kid who hangs out with Jake and they get into kid hijinks involving large numbers of self-sealing stem bolts, but the writers start to do a lot more with him later and it's very good. After a certain point he's actually a far more prominent character than Jake.

[chionos]

http://www.john-zhu.com/startrektv/jpegs/st_stem_bolts.jpg

http://www.trekcc.org/1e/cardimages/ds9/jakeandnog.gif

[Pumpkin]

I miss Data

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

[Del Murder]

Yeah. So does Data never show up at DS9 at all? I'd even settle for Lore.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Nup.

From TNG, you get O'Brien, Worf, a bit of Picard, Tom Riker, Lwaxana Troi, Gowran, Admiral Necheyev, and maybe some others. I can't remember who else, but I'll let you know as I come across them.

[Del Murder]

Tom riker? Intriguing.

[Pumpkin]

We just saw the episode with him yesterday

I think we're in season 3 now and I'm liking the show less and less, honestly. But the good news is I like TNG more than I used to now :D

Me and sharky discussed why I don't like it last night, and it's not that it's a bad show, it just isn't really to my tastes I suppose

[Pumpkin]

So now we're more than halfway and I've kind of given up hope of liking it. I actually dislike it enough that it's made TNG better and I wasn't super keen on that show either xD

It's making me very bitter about having to watch Voyager and Enterprise

[sharkythesharkdogg]

:colbert:

[Pike]

For some reason I get the feeling you would like Voyager.

It's probably my least favorite Trek series but you and I seem to have opposite tastes in a lot of things. xD And it's not bad, per se, just not really my style and I don't like the characters as much.