Future Final Fantasy

[Masamunemaster]

With all of the talk about FFXV and Type-0 coming out left and right I began thinking of what I would like to see in future installments.

One of the biggest things I want to see is another ship in next gen graphics. On the open seas with a rough Cid yelling at all of the crew members, then out of nowhere a giant sea snake pops out of the crashing blue waves and slithers on the deck. Out from the crew quarters comes the heroes with weapons a blazing, looking for what was causing such a ruckus. As the beast begins the assault on the ship our heroes rush in the dragoon jumps to the top of the mast and begins to crash his spear into the belly of the beast. Right before it hits and the others rush in the screen goes black......

What would you all like to see in the future of most of our favorite franchises?

[Randy]

I really just want them to return to the old formula. World Map with separate locations and then turn-based battles.
I think that formula really worked for them and I never quite understood why they felt that better hardware insisted that they change the formula. As for the battles, the problem is there are so few ways to do battles with multiple characters (which I feel does add to the story as it invests you more in them as a team). The only 2 ways to do team battles I can think of are either the traditional turn-based or the kind of real-time turn-based (i.e FF12, Dragon Age, Xenoblade Chronicles)

[Leigh]

I personally feel that all they need to do is actually hire a decent scenario writer. Get a good author who can actually build a decent storyline and set of characters for once. But I expect they'll continue to fall back on anime-tropes and Japanese cringe worthiness. "Ganbatte!" And stop with crystals...they're not all that interesting. Flash Gordon and Superman films were 30+ years ago.

[Fox]

Make them look worse.

I know on its own that sounds stupid, but I have never and will never give a damn about graphical fidelity in my Final Fantasy games. Art direction is important of course, but when you start bragging about your real time puddles and cloth physics... come on. Final Fantasy XII's character models were not as good as X's. It's CG sequences were not as good as X's. It's audio quality was not as good as X's. But the art direction and writing were so good that it didn't matter in the slightest. By all means make a pretty game, but don't concern yourselves with "pushing the boundaries" or being "the best looking game of its generation".

The other side to this of course is make sure your art direction and writing are actually good enough to support that approach. But the focus on fidelity we've seen since XIII points to an attitude problem where there is too much time and effort being put into stuff that really doesn't matter. It'll be interesting to see whether or not XV has fallen into the same trap.

In terms of gameplay, I'm not too bothered actually. The only thing really bad about XIII's game design was the horribly linear environments. The actual battling, strategy and customisation was pretty strong. Obviously everyone has their individual preferences, but I don't think any of the primary Final Fantasy titles have actually had poor gameplay. Whatever systems they've gone for have been interesting and executed pretty competently. When we think back and complain about XIII, the battle system is rarely the problem. It's all about the story and characters. Or lack thereof.

[Electroshock Therapy]

With all of the talk about FFXV and Type-0 coming out left and right I began thinking of what I would like to see in future installments.

One of the biggest things I want to see is another ship in next gen graphics. On the open seas with a rough Cid yelling at all of the crew members, then out of nowhere a giant sea snake pops out of the crashing blue waves and slithers on the deck. Out from the crew quarters comes the heroes with weapons a blazing, looking for what was causing such a ruckus. As the beast begins the assault on the ship our heroes rush in the dragoon jumps to the top of the mast and begins to crash his spear into the belly of the beast. Right before it hits and the others rush in the screen goes black......

What would you all like to see in the future of most of our favorite franchises?

Actually, I would really love to see a nautical Final Fantasy. I know most (or all, I don't know) have a sea ship, but it's not used extensively enough to make the game feel very nautical. Think Wind Waker, but Final Fantasy.

[Loony BoB]

I personally feel that all they need to do is actually hire a decent scenario writer. Get a good author who can actually build a decent storyline and set of characters for once. But I expect they'll continue to fall back on anime-tropes and Japanese cringe worthiness. "Ganbatte!" And stop with crystals...they're not all that interesting. Flash Gordon and Superman films were 30+ years ago.
Both of these things strike me as valid things. My list starts off with the former thing.

- The storylines are getting worse lately, even if the original concept was alright. Get a foreign fantasy author to help write a storyline.
- Don't read too much into criticism. Make your changes slower. Don't live on knee-jerk reactions as you'll never find the sweet spot in the middle if you keep overcompensating.
- Bring back airships and traversable world maps. There is no excuse here - if you could do it on earlier consoles, you should be able to do it on later consoles.
- Give us villain(s) that we can grow a hatred for. Make them do terrible things. Make them known to you early in the game, and make them the obvious final boss all the way through to the very ending (in other words, actually make them the final boss).
- Give us villains with personality. The personality of the main cast has been pretty clear recently but it's been some time since I really felt personality coming out of a villain. Can the villain tell jokes? Does the villain have quirks? Give them flaws, perhaps even make us sympathise with them.
- Don't be afraid to do the unthinkable. Sazh shooting himself. Hope turning into a Cie'th. Imagine how this could have really made an impact for FFXIII. This kind of thing should not be shied away from just because you don't want to lose a character. Dare yourself to kill off your most loved character.
- Build a fantasy world, not just a fantasy story. Spira was arguably the most beautiful world SE ever created as it was full of fantasy. Repeat that!

[Leigh]

Give us villains with personality. The personality of the main cast has been pretty clear recently but it's been some time since I really felt personality coming out of a villain. Can the villain tell jokes? Does the villain have quirks? Give them flaws, perhaps even make us sympathise with them.

What was wrong with Mecha-Pope?! :p

XIII was great. Kinda like if Vatican City goes off its mash in 2600AD.

[Loony BoB]

I enjoyed XIII. Despite this, I felt nothing towards Barthy. He was just a standard villain. I could write villains that way. "Laugh arrogantly at characters, treat them as if their cause is futile, talk yourself up every now and then, be ruthless, blah blah blah." Just so boring.

[metagloria]

With all of the talk about FFXV and Type-0 coming out left and right I began thinking of what I would like to see in future installments.

One of the biggest things I want to see is another ship in next gen graphics. On the open seas with a rough Cid yelling at all of the crew members, then out of nowhere a giant sea snake pops out of the crashing blue waves and slithers on the deck. Out from the crew quarters comes the heroes with weapons a blazing, looking for what was causing such a ruckus. As the beast begins the assault on the ship our heroes rush in the dragoon jumps to the top of the mast and begins to crash his spear into the belly of the beast. Right before it hits and the others rush in the screen goes black......

What would you all like to see in the future of most of our favorite franchises?

Actually, I would really love to see a nautical Final Fantasy. I know most (or all, I don't know) have a sea ship, but it's not used extensively enough to make the game feel very nautical. Think Wind Waker, but Final Fantasy.

How about a submarine too, for the first time since V and VII? We all get psyched about a possible world map, but my goodness, imagine a massive underwater world to explore. Like 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea, but Final Fantasy.

[Leigh]

I enjoyed XIII. Despite this, I felt nothing towards Barthy. He was just a standard villain. I could write villains that way. "Laugh arrogantly at characters, treat them as if their cause is futile, talk yourself up every now and then, be ruthless, blah blah blah." Just so boring.

I'm still not quite sure what I played through when I look back at XIII. I must have forgot to put the subtitles on, because I still have no idea what was really going on. :P

[Loony BoB]

I could dig an entirely marine world for a future FF game.

[Masamunemaster]

I would love an underwater world, submarines would be another big shift I would love.

Bob brings up such a big hit for me also, make it to where we would sympathize with the villains. That makes a game a lot better when we have to feel sorry to kill them.

[Bolivar]

I really just want them to return to the old formula. World Map with separate locations and then turn-based battles.
I think that formula really worked for them and I never quite understood why they felt that better hardware insisted that they change the formula. As for the battles, the problem is there are so few ways to do battles with multiple characters (which I feel does add to the story as it invests you more in them as a team). The only 2 ways to do team battles I can think of are either the traditional turn-based or the kind of real-time turn-based (i.e FF12, Dragon Age, Xenoblade Chronicles)

This is how I feel. While I thought XIII was a good game and XII was a great game, I liked the classic winning formula a lot more. What I enjoyed about FFVII and X is that they didn't do away with it completely, they instead leveraged new technology to enhance its immersion and make it do things that were impossible for the older games.

Speaking of which, I want them to break down the barriers between cutscenes and gameplay which VII worked so hard to demolish all those years ago. I want to steer the motorcycle and pilot the submarine again, those moments are what made the story so much more memorable than it otherwise would have been.

I don't expect a return to turn based combat but I would like them to build on the foundation of FFXII. The Gambit system was the best implementation of a real time, command-driven combat system of any game I've played. I honestly can't fathom why they took such a giant step back with XIII. Now Type-0 and XV look to be unabashed action games. Kinda sucks I have to hold out hope for the next one to see if they return to games I want to play.

[Leigh]

We're never going to have a sequel-proper to what we call here 'The Golden Age of Final Fantasy' which was pretty much the PS1 generation. I think that the best we could possibly ask for now is that Final Fantasy becomes a great action genre. The best thing Square-Enix should, but won't do, is take the pressure off themselves by ending the franchise. A call for the end of Final Fantasy.

They need to take the pressure off of themselves caused by the legacy AAA title, spending so much money on a game that is merely adequate or average. It's met with lukewarm criticism from fans and then they have to spend time making spin-offs with crayoned in gameplay add ons. There's more towns in this one! Are they interesting and relevant? Er, no... Oh, well what's the point? Well dudes said they wanted more towns like t'old games...Y U NO APPY?! I can't help but feel that they just try to tack on every gameplay element that is in trend right now without it being the original intention of the game design.

"Wuts relevant these days peeps?" "Well open-world games are doing really well now, boss!" "What is our game like?" "A renaissance of wonderfully designed corridors, sir!" "Oh...well can we stick a giant empty field in the middle of it somewhere? That should satisfy people's exploration curiosity right?" "Y-yeah..err, I guess!" "Awesome! We're gonna make so much money from fans still living in the past. Like Sega! So des ne?" "Hai Hai!"

Diagnosis: Final Fantasy is like an old 70s hard rock band. They were fantastic in the past, and they're still touring today. But nobody is really interested in their new old man material, even if the recording and mixing equipment is better. Everyone just wants to hear the old songs. They've lost the edginess, and the singer probably has a few vocal nodules by now.

Treatment: Split up the band. Create a new band. Put some, but not too much money, in a game that is lovingly crafted that doesn't need 6 months to create one single cut scene.

[Electroshock Therapy]

No, I don't want them to make games like they once did. Why? Because they already made them. I'm happy they are branching out and trying new things. After all this time, developing "classic" Final Fantasy has probably gotten boring. And, really, not everyone thinks the new games suck or aren't "as good." I've really only seen that on FF forums from long-time fans. Newcomers seem to be more open.

I'm not trying to say older fans are close-minded. Seriously! I understand why the new games don't appeal. Many came into the franchise during the SNES and PS1 eras and fell in love with the series because of what they had to offer. I can understand if you're disappointed they no longer deliver those games.

I liken this to a long time band. Those who loved the band when they just started end up losing their interest when the band starts changing their sound. Fans want to the band to "return to their roots" whether the band want to or not. New fans jump right in to their discography and try out bits of everything: old stuff, middle work, and newer material. They don't have a vision of the "true" band, or what they want to call the "true" band.

I see the same thing with Final Fantasy or any long-time game series. Final Fantasy is taking a new direction. Older fans don't always like it. Newer fans don't seem to care as much. They come in, are fascinated, and just want to play the games. It doesn't always matter if it's old school or new.

Now, whether the game's quality is good or not is debatable. Because that's entirely subjective, I have no defense for that. But I don't think Square Enix should be considered to be losing their way simply because they don't make Final Fantasy like they used to. Because that's just it: they used to. They already made it, time to move on.

[Fox]

Newcomers seem to be more open.


Newcomers tend not to know any better. There's a parallel here with mobile gaming. Stuff like Dungeon Keeper Mobile or Clash of Clans, where the entire game revolves around tapping blocks a few times and then either waiting for 24 hours to tap some more or paying real world money to get rid of the timers.

To a huge number of people: this is video games. And they enjoy it and praise it and write glowing reviews. But they tend not to play other stuff. Would they love Clash of Clans so much if they had experience of Final Fantasy, Deus Ex, Grand Theft Auto? I really, really doubt it. Source: vast numbers of people who have played those games can't stand mobile games like Clash of Clans.

The point is: yes, newcomers are more open. But they'll also be more open to whatever you put in front of them. If you give them something fresh and new and never seen before, it's just the same to them than if you were to give them random, turn based battles and classic themes. And let me be clear - I don't have anything against trying new things. But I also don't believe in discarding what has worked before just because 'it's already been done'. You don't throw away round wheels because cars have had round wheels for ages and isn't it getting a bit old? There's a reason wheels are that shape, and there's a reason 'classic' games endure for years and years.

[Electroshock Therapy]

Newcomers tend not to know any better.
Ouch!


There's a parallel here with mobile gaming. Stuff like Dungeon Keeper Mobile or Clash of Clans, where the entire game revolves around tapping blocks a few times and then either waiting for 24 hours to tap some more or paying real world money to get rid of the timers.

To a huge number of people: this is video games. And they enjoy it and praise it and write glowing reviews. But they tend not to play other stuff. Would they love Clash of Clans so much if they had experience of Final Fantasy, Deus Ex, Grand Theft Auto? I really, really doubt it. Source: vast numbers of people who have played those games can't stand mobile games like Clash of Clans.
I really do not understand the connection here. Clash of Clans is so different from Final Fantasy, Deus Ex, and Grand Theft Auto, I'm not sure how this is relevant to what we're talking about. I can imagine why people who've played Deus Ex and Grand Theft Auto wouldn't play Clash of Clans because there's almost nothing to compare the genres. Final Fantasy Tactics series might come close, but the main series is hardly similar to compare. I'm sure newcomers are smart to realize that if you stick Final Fantasy and Clash of Clans together, they're getting completely different games.


The point is: yes, newcomers are more open. But they'll also be more open to whatever you put in front of them. If you give them something fresh and new and never seen before, it's just the same to them than if you were to give them random, turn based battles and classic themes.
That is kind of my point, but only if we're talking about the main series which is what many people will try first. And that can be considered a good thing. It is the same to them whether they play the XIII trilogy or VI. They don't have a per-conceived vision of what Final Fantasy is or what is "should" be. But there's enough similarity that they'll understand that it's the same series regardless of gameplay differences. That's why trying out both old and new is beneficial. If they think both types are fun then they don't see a problem, and nor do I. It's just more to choose from.


And let me be clear - I don't have anything against trying new things. But I also don't believe in discarding what has worked before just because 'it's already been done'. You don't throw away round wheels because cars have had round wheels for ages and isn't it getting a bit old? There's a reason wheels are that shape, and there's a reason 'classic' games endure for years and years.
There's a difference between necessity like wheels of car and gimmicks of game design. If they never discarded turn-based gaming, Final Fantasy would eventually grow stale no matter how many times they tweak it. Because the fact is that it's still turn-based. This is a long-running series, too. It's not like Final Fantasy was recently invented. If they had changed the formula too soon by FF VII, I can see how people would be upset. But this is a long-running series with many games in its name. Change was inevitable. Now some people can play turn-based all their life and never be tired of it, but others will be. I can only say that it's purely personal preference, and no one can truly win in this argument. We can debate this until the end-times, but I doubt we'd get anywhere. It all depends on what you or I think of these changes.

My opinion is that I always respect developers who try new things. I'd rather dislike new games because they were different, not because the games had grown stale. At least I'd have respect for Square for the former.

Final Fantasy probably could have benefited from a couple more classic turn-based gameplay, I don't know. I personally still like the formula, and so I would enjoy it. But the series is changing. Maybe it's purely to accommodate the changing trend in videos games, or maybe it's because the FF development teams have grown bored with the old style. If it's the latter, I'd want them to pour their hearts into something they believe in no matter how different the end product is. I always hated the term "don't fix it if it ain't broke." It sounds like an easy excuse to say why total change is bad and should never ever happen.

And really looking at the new Final Fantasy games, has it completely changed?
World to explore? Check
Leveling system? Check
Strategic combat? Check
Skills to choose from? Check
Emphasis on story? Check
Fantastical setting (I don't mean old-school fantasy)? Check
Mini-games to waste time in? Check

Sounds like a basic skeleton for a Final Fantasy game to me. The settings always change. The stories are different. The way the stories are told is different (like X was soap opera, XII was political drama, etc). The only notable difference is how much freedom a player has in combat while they fiddle with menus. The recent titles are more action oriented, and Final Fantasy XV appears especially so what with doing away with menu combat entirely. But does that really make them less of Final Fantasy games when everything else is intact? You might think so, but I don't. To me, that's just another way to play the game. It's very different from Final Fantasy of old, and to me that's a breath of fresh air.

All that was just my opinion. I like the changes, but I understand why fans do not. And I mean that! I understand if you don't like the new direction. I'm only arguing because I had a couple issues with how you were arguing. I'm not arguing your opinion.

Going back to the earlier topic of newcomers. I still don't think many of them will have a problem with the changes because they haven't spent years playing one style of Final Fantasy.* And the core of what makes a Final Fantasy game still exists in the newer games. And it's not a case that newcomers "don't know any better." They're are not some dumb breed of people, especially when opinions are involved.

*Before I get complaints that I'm insulting older fans for this, I'm still not saying older fans are close-minded. You've spent years playing one style and have grown to love it. In no way am I saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying newer fans didn't have that time to develop their love for FF yet. That development is still ongoing.

[Vyk]

I always argue for game makers to put their money more into art direction rather than high fidelity graphics. It'd be so much cheaper and more memorable. And I've always argued that Square needed to do what BioWare has tried to do. Have real writers on staff

Other than that, some people have brought up some really good points. I would love to enjoy a submarine again. Or an airship with an actual overworld to explore. Or pushing the boundaries with potentially killing or turning main characters. But I doubt they'd even consider that stuff. They once said they only want to make games for teenagers. They seem to be mildly changing their tune there, but I'm not completely convinced they want to make anything with "mature" aspect as of yet. Which is sad. I think they're afraid of being seen as Grand Theft Auto, and get accused of throwing garbage mature content in just for shock value or to be like some 17 year old who smokes and drinks and thinks they're mature. When mature can be done so tastefully and impactful. That's just the realm of missed opportunities though. And again, it'd need a real quality writer on staff. Probably more than one, to bounce ideas off of someone who knows what they're talking about

[Bolivar]

It's not even a "newcomer" thing. The only people who did have problems with the changes are those in the West with way too much time to talk about video games. XIII was well received in Japan and many especially liked Lightening, hence why they made the sequels. The developers are confused when they come to the West for interviews and get asked how ashamed they are they didn't have an open world or why the characters were so unforgivably annoying.

[Fox]

They made the sequels because relatively speaking they were super cheap to make, especially if they already knew there wasn't going to be another primary entry on the PS3 generation. In terms of reception, XIII-2's Japanese launch sales were more than a 60% drop on XIII. That's massive (comparison: X to X-2 was about a 20% drop). This isn't a purely western thing, the Japanese didn't take to it like the previous instalments either.