Turn-Based Combat

[Forsaken Lover]

I have a complex moral/philosophical question for all of you.

What is everyone's problem with turn-based combat? Do you have a thing against turn-based combat?

I was talking about FFVII Remake, and a lot of people were theorizing it's gonna play more like FFXV or whatever, and I just don't get it. It feels like Square and a lot of people online want to argue that being turn-based is outdated and being "new" means that characters should at least wobble around a lot a la FFXIII. (and I know ATB isn't exactly turn-based but it's also far from an Action RPG)

I even had this interview (http://gamerant.com/square-enix-americans-turn-based-games-trung-29262/) linked to me that says Americans hate turn-based RPGs.


I know some people will argue "it's silly how you just run over to them, poke them, then return to your spot so they can attack you back" but it's also ridiculous when they shoot you in the face for 10 damage or blow up the solar system for 500 damage.

[Jinx]

Turn-based is my favorite kind of combat. If they go with a system like FFX-2, it wouldn't look ridiculous. They way they stand is much more "realistic".

[Bolivar]

I usually highlight here that Torment: Tides of Numenera polled Kickstarter backers if they wanted turn based or real time like the original and turn based won out. I think there is a desire for RPGs to be RPGs and bring back the strategy and fun that's supposed to go with it.

Not sure what's up with EoFF but this is a Nomura game (mistake) and I guess KH fans expect this to be more of and action oriented game. I think generally, there is a stigma attached to the idea of high production games having turn based combat, for whatever reason it has to be something else. I hope VII's remake at least presents and compromise for both sides of the debate.

[Shauna]

I think on EoFF 90% of the people talking about it not being turn-based has been people hoping that it won't be more action orientated, and that it should stay ATB. So I don't see anyone here pushing for it to be action RPG.

[Ayen]

I like Turn-Base just fine. It's just the transition to it I don't care for. I'm trying to do something here, just leave me alone for five minutes.

[Del Murder]

I like both turn-based and action-based. I prefer a turn-based style most of the time because I like to have time to think about my choices and be able to make individual decisions about my team's actions as the battle develops. That's difficult to do in action RPGs. Often I even prefer the extreme of the tactical RPG where the combat basically freezes while you take your action. However, I am also very fond of action RPGs like Kingdom Hearts.

I think the main complaint of turn-based RPGs are that they are slow. However, you can crank up the battle speed and turn on active mode to make it faster in many traditional RPGs.

As has been mentioned many times at this site, FFX-2 was a great example of how to do turn-based combat and make it fast paced with a definite flow to battle (hell, you literally flow through your dress sphere grid to change jobs in that game).

[Mirage]

I just don't want it to have strict turns. That shit is usually pretty boring. I like an element of urgency, a bit of pressure.

[theundeadhero]

I really liked the games where you had an ATB action bar, but you could set the combat to active and turn the combat speed all the way up. They were perfection in combat - a mix of ATB and action.

[VeloZer0]

I strongly prefer turn based. I have action genres for action games.

[Wolf Kanno]

The stigma against Turn Based combat is a carry over from when JRPGs were big deals back in Square's heyday. The genre brought in new fans but ones that didn't appreciate turn based combat and found the whole concept of characters standing in rows, taking turns to hit each other looked silly. SE took it to heart and have been trying to bring the genre closer to action games ever since.

The reason why so many people think the VII Remake will ditch the system is because A) Turn based gameplay is still niche in today's market and they'll want to make a system that will appeal to the largest demographic, B) Newer fans are more accustomed to newer versions of ATB like FFXII and XIII which rely on A.I. partners to speed up the decision making process and make battles move faster. C) the game may very well stick to modern game design principles and ditch the world map for a perpetual world like Xenoblade or Skyrim, and will thus need a combat system that help this flow better. D) Fans wanted the ultimate remake, why settle for the old when SE can make something new (and possibly popular enough to incorporate into future games) than stick to something old? They've already said if you just wanted a prettier FFVII to stick to the HD Remaster coming out instead of the actual remake.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the battle system they choose to implement would be some combination of FFXII's gambit system/party switching, FFXIII's encounter system, and Crisis Core combat and Materia management, all retooled of course.

[Skyblade]

Wolf just highlighted most of the ways that Square could make sure I didn't pick up the remake, aside from adding in the Compilation retcons.

[NeoCracker]

I'd like to say that interview doesn't say Americans dont' like Turn Based RPG's, it says American Reviews don't seem to like Turn Based RPG's. This is an area fan reaction and critic reaction don't seem to agree on very much. :p

[Pumpkin]

I love turn-based and would like to see more games use it

[Fynn]

If Bravely Default has taught us anything, it's that non-ATB turn-based combat can be fast, exciting, and well-received.

[Wolf Kanno]

If Bravely Default has taught us anything, it's that non-ATB turn-based combat can be fast, exciting, and well-received.

True, but listening to Nomura and Kitase, it sounds to me like they want to move away from Turn Base if they could. Hell even Ito said that he felt the medium would eventually become an Action-RPG series, though he also said in the same interview that he feels ATB has more room to grow...

I'm not saying Turn Base is bad or dead, but from a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to evolve the current systems rather than retread the old. I feel it's one of the reasons why SE has been mentioning that traditionalist should be looking towards the HD Remaster because I'm sure the VII remake will have more in common with more recent entries than the original in terms of game design.

[Fynn]

I agree - that is essentially the point I was trying to make in the article I did a while ago.

And even though BD really exceeded SE's expectations on the West, there's still a huge difference between how console games are received and handhelds.

[Mr. Carnelian]

I think that a lot of Final Fantasy fans worry far too much about this kind of thing.

ANY combat system can be good if you do it right.

I honestly couldn't care less what system they choose for the VII remake, as long as it's done WELL.

[Mirage]

What's the moral part of this question btw?

[Fynn]

Turn-based combat is a moral thing to do, Mirage. This is entirely a moral issue.

[Bright Shield]

No turn based = no buy for me.

I expect Genesis at the very least too. Nomura has already confirmed story changes. :(

[Skyblade]

If Bravely Default has taught us anything, it's that non-ATB turn-based combat can be fast, exciting, and well-received.

True, but listening to Nomura and Kitase, it sounds to me like they want to move away from Turn Base if they could. Hell even Ito said that he felt the medium would eventually become an Action-RPG series, though he also said in the same interview that he feels ATB has more room to grow...

I'm not saying Turn Base is bad or dead, but from a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to evolve the current systems rather than retread the old. I feel it's one of the reasons why SE has been mentioning that traditionalist should be looking towards the HD Remaster because I'm sure the VII remake will have more in common with more recent entries than the original in terms of game design.

Why would traditionalists be looking forward to the HD remaster if they're moving away from traditional systems? Apparently SE should be saying "if you enjoyed this game years ago, stay the hell away, because we're changing everything about it".

[Bolivar]

#NoATBNoBuy

[Bright Shield]

If Bravely Default has taught us anything, it's that non-ATB turn-based combat can be fast, exciting, and well-received.

True, but listening to Nomura and Kitase, it sounds to me like they want to move away from Turn Base if they could. Hell even Ito said that he felt the medium would eventually become an Action-RPG series, though he also said in the same interview that he feels ATB has more room to grow...

I'm not saying Turn Base is bad or dead, but from a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to evolve the current systems rather than retread the old. I feel it's one of the reasons why SE has been mentioning that traditionalist should be looking towards the HD Remaster because I'm sure the VII remake will have more in common with more recent entries than the original in terms of game design.

Why would traditionalists be looking forward to the HD remaster if they're moving away from traditional systems? Apparently SE should be saying "if you enjoyed this game years ago, stay the hell away, because we're changing everything about it".

Agreed.

SE is out to destroy your childhood memories even more than George Lucas did...

[Fynn]

If Bravely Default has taught us anything, it's that non-ATB turn-based combat can be fast, exciting, and well-received.

True, but listening to Nomura and Kitase, it sounds to me like they want to move away from Turn Base if they could. Hell even Ito said that he felt the medium would eventually become an Action-RPG series, though he also said in the same interview that he feels ATB has more room to grow...

I'm not saying Turn Base is bad or dead, but from a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to evolve the current systems rather than retread the old. I feel it's one of the reasons why SE has been mentioning that traditionalist should be looking towards the HD Remaster because I'm sure the VII remake will have more in common with more recent entries than the original in terms of game design.

Why would traditionalists be looking forward to the HD remaster if they're moving away from traditional systems? Apparently SE should be saying "if you enjoyed this game years ago, stay the hell away, because we're changing everything about it".

Agreed.

SE is out to destroy your childhood memories even more than George Lucas did...

We don't know that yet. People are grasping at straws to be terrified right now. Yes, they said they'd implement changes, but we don't know how they will look and to what extent they'll be there. They might work, and the original game will still be there.

[Mr. Carnelian]

If Bravely Default has taught us anything, it's that non-ATB turn-based combat can be fast, exciting, and well-received.

True, but listening to Nomura and Kitase, it sounds to me like they want to move away from Turn Base if they could. Hell even Ito said that he felt the medium would eventually become an Action-RPG series, though he also said in the same interview that he feels ATB has more room to grow...

I'm not saying Turn Base is bad or dead, but from a marketing standpoint, it makes sense to evolve the current systems rather than retread the old. I feel it's one of the reasons why SE has been mentioning that traditionalist should be looking towards the HD Remaster because I'm sure the VII remake will have more in common with more recent entries than the original in terms of game design.

Why would traditionalists be looking forward to the HD remaster if they're moving away from traditional systems? Apparently SE should be saying "if you enjoyed this game years ago, stay the hell away, because we're changing everything about it".

Agreed.

SE is out to destroy your childhood memories even more than George Lucas did...

We don't know that yet. People are grasping at straws to be terrified right now. Yes, they said they'd implement changes, but we don't know how they will look and to what extent they'll be there. They might work, and the original game will still be there.

WHY ARE ALL THE FF VETERANS SO SCARED OF CHANGE?!

What would be the point of making the game again if they weren't going to put a new spin on it?

[Wolf Kanno]

Why would traditionalists be looking forward to the HD remaster if they're moving away from traditional systems? Apparently SE should be saying "if you enjoyed this game years ago, stay the hell away, because we're changing everything about it".

There are two versions of the game being released soon. The Remake and the HD Remaster of the original that was announced last December. The HD Remaster is basically an HD port of the PC Steam version from what I gather.

I'm also just basically quoting Nomura on all of this. He hasn't said how the remake will be different from the original but he did say that if you were just hoping for the original game with modern FF graphics, you're better off just getting the HD remaster (http://www.siliconera.com/2015/06/19/why-square-enix-decided-to-finally-make-the-final-fantasy-vii-remake/) because the remake will be changing things. Kitase mentioned in an interview a few years back (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-16-square-enix-new-final-fantasy-games-take-precedence-over-final-fantasy-7-remake) that if he did do a remake of VII he would implement changes as he does feel VII has elements that haven't aged well or simply wanted to change things he decided in hindsight didn't work too well. Both have basically said that a VII remake without changes would just be repetitious.

[Fynn]

So it's kinda like what happened with FFIV - a GBA port and soon after a DS remake that changed the game substantially.

[Skyblade]

From that interview:
"I think if it came down to that, then there’d be no reason in doing a remake, and while it may be difficult, we’re already prepared to doing it right if we’re going to do it at all."

If I had any faith that Square still knew what "doing it right" meant, I'd be all on board.

[Bright Shield]

Problem is that we've seen the "new" vision of FF7 in the Compilation, and it sucks. It never even came close to recapturing the FF7 feel. Every new character they added was garbage, the action battle systems were horrendous. Limits in Crisis Core were luck based for crying out loud.

It's 100% style and 0% substance.

The best Remake ever was the Resident Evil Remake. It gave us better graphics, better voice acting, and tweaked the mechanics. Adding a few puzzles, changing the house layout a bit, rebalancing the difficulty etc. All of these things are fine.

What isn't fine is shoehorning in new characters into iconic scenes(**** Genesis being in the reactor), ret-conning scenes to match later material, and turning a game from a turn based RPG to an Action RPG. That's BS, and a slap in the face to the original fans.

Besides guys, SE has already tried this before and the resulting product was horrendous. I speak of none other than the Lufia 2 remake... :(

[Skyblade]

Agreed.

You re-imagine a game that has strong concepts that it can't execute well. Like Final Fantasy VIII.

You re-make a game that is incredibly strong overall, but held back by technical limitations. Like Final Fantasy VII.

Re-imagining FFVII is going to utterly ruin everything that made the game great to begin with.

[Bolivar]

A number of FFVII's elements haven't aged well and need updating. Its game design, however, is not one of them. The unsurpassed pacing is why so many still hold it as the greatest game of all time. The combat is the most fluid and responsive the series has ever had. People want a game remade because they want to play it again, but with all the bells and whistles that can bring it to life like never before.

The whole "go play the remaster" attitude works both ways. Why not just make a new game?

[Mirage]

There are two versions of the game being released soon. The Remake and the HD Remaster of the original that was announced last December. The HD Remaster is basically an HD port of the PC Steam version from what I gather.


Calling it a HD port is stretching it. Stretching it a lot.

[Bolivar]

As in, all they did was stretch the aspect ratio and native resolution?

[Zanmato]

If the system will be done properly, it doesn't matter if it's turn-based or real-time battle system.
This series is changing, even radically, but it still has its climate and it's still our beloved Final Fantasy, right? :P
We have to wait for the final product to judge it rightfully.

[Mirage]

As in, all they did was stretch the aspect ratio and native resolution?

Zing

close, i guess. Combat will look better because that's in full 3D. On the field map we'll still have the same low res backgrounds with high res low-poly chibi characters.

[Wolf Kanno]

There are two versions of the game being released soon. The Remake and the HD Remaster of the original that was announced last December. The HD Remaster is basically an HD port of the PC Steam version from what I gather.


Calling it a HD port is stretching it. Stretching it a lot.

Those are Nomura's words, not mine my friend. ;)

To be honest, it's not like you won't have the original to go back to. It may not be the remake people wanted but it was unrealistic to expect that once the game jumped from the ten year mark, especially for a game that will most likely make a lot of money on it's reputation alone. Granted, there is nothing really known about the remake anyway, so this whole worrying about "they changed it , now it sucks" may end up being for nothing. With that said, I do feel that a faithful remake of VII was not in the cards ever. They will change a few things but we won't know if it will be minor or major until we get more info. I still imagine the plot will be re-written somewhat to have better ties with the Compilation but that doesn't mean Genesis or Cissinei are going to be making cameos.

[DMKA]

I freaking love turn-based combat and I hate that SE has abandoned it. It's one of the main reasons I fell in love with the Final Fantasy series in the first place.

If they announced a new major console FF with the classic turn-based combat (or even better, FFX-2's incarnation of it) I can't tell you how utterly thrilled I'd be.

[VeloZer0]

From that interview:
"I think if it came down to that, then there’d be no reason in doing a remake, and while it may be difficult, we’re already prepared to doing it right if we’re going to do it at all."

If I had any faith that Square still knew what "doing it right" meant, I'd be all on board.
I think the crux of the matter all comes down to this. Do you or don't you have faith that any changes are of the sort that will make the game better?

What I'm not a fan of is the 'this will ruin my childhood'. No matter how bad they f*** up a remake there is still always the original game to play.

Personally I don't have much faith in SE nowadays, so I remain skeptical. I guess it's wait and see.

[Mirage]

I freaking love turn-based combat and I hate that SE has abandoned it. It's one of the main reasons I fell in love with the Final Fantasy series in the first place.

If they announced a new major console FF with the classic turn-based combat (or even better, FFX-2's incarnation of it) I can't tell you how utterly thrilled I'd be.

FF13 is ATB, man. They haven't abandoned it.

[Electroshock Therapy]

I don't think they'll abandon it completely. I think they don't want the series to become stale and so they try something new every now and then. They tried something different with XII and now they're doing something different with XV. That doesn't necessarily mean XVI or any future games won't use a Turn-Based combat system or variant thereof. As has been said, XIII used ATB. I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to alternate between ATB and other combat systems.

My own personal preference... I like turn-based games. It's how I started Final Fantasy, and it's what got me into the series. But I do appreciate the need or want to expand one's horizons and be innovative. That's why I have no issue with XII's MMO-style combat or XV's action system. Turn-based may have gotten me into Final Fantasy, but that doesn't mean I think the series should be restricted to it, or that I want the series to be restricted to it. I just want a good game with a fun world to muck around in, and I'm happy with that.

[Bright Shield]

Nomura indicated that the story in the remake might deviate from the one set out in the original, suggesting the remake may be more of a reimagining.
I think the bold is the problem. People asked for a REMAKE, Square advertised a REMAKE. We are getting a reimagining with major story and gameplay changes instead. That is total bs, and not what was wanted or what was promised.

[DMKA]

FF13 is ATB, man. They haven't abandoned it.

True, but when I think of turn-based I'm thinking more in the "control each and every one of my characters one at a time, a turn for each character".

Yes, FFXIII and even XIV are still technically turn-based. XV on the other hand seems to have done away with it completely.

[Mirage]

FF14 isn't really turn based. You can enter commands in between "turns" at any point you want.

[FFNut]

I like the turned based play, then again, I love the vintage play of JRPG's

[escobert]

I enjoy turn based when it's done right. FFVII and VIII come to mind although I hate drawing magic.

[Fynn]

Nomura indicated that the story in the remake might deviate from the one set out in the original, suggesting the remake may be more of a reimagining.
I think the bold is the problem. People asked for a REMAKE, Square advertised a REMAKE. We are getting a reimagining with major story and gameplay changes instead. That is total bs, and not what was wanted or what was promised.

You still really don't know in what way, shape, or form these changes should be implemented. At least wait until we get to see a proper gameplay trailer.

[Bright Shield]

Nomura indicated that the story in the remake might deviate from the one set out in the original, suggesting the remake may be more of a reimagining.
I think the bold is the problem. People asked for a REMAKE, Square advertised a REMAKE. We are getting a reimagining with major story and gameplay changes instead. That is total bs, and not what was wanted or what was promised.

You still really don't know in what way, shape, or form these changes should be implemented. At least wait until we get to see a proper gameplay trailer.

Let me put it plainly.

I really want the original battle mechanics back. However, if they change the combat and everything else is great, I can deal with it. I'll give the game a shot.

On the other hand, if I even catch a 2 second glimpse of Genesis; I will break my disc in half. I will also never purchase another Square Enix game ever again. >_>

[Mirage]

I enjoy turn based when it's done right. FFVII and VIII come to mind although I hate drawing magic.

drawing magic is no less boring than endlessly walking around in the same field to "level up". Besides, you don't even need to draw a lot of magic.

WHen you're going out of your way to get 100 of whatever spell by drawing, you are basically doing FF8's equivalent of ultra-grinding for no good reason in other FFs

[Skyblade]

Nomura indicated that the story in the remake might deviate from the one set out in the original, suggesting the remake may be more of a reimagining.
I think the bold is the problem. People asked for a REMAKE, Square advertised a REMAKE. We are getting a reimagining with major story and gameplay changes instead. That is total bs, and not what was wanted or what was promised.

You still really don't know in what way, shape, or form these changes should be implemented. At least wait until we get to see a proper gameplay trailer.

Let me put it plainly.

I really want the original battle mechanics back. However, if they change the combat and everything else is great, I can deal with it. I'll give the game a shot.

On the other hand, if I even catch a 2 second glimpse of Genesis; I will break my disc in half. I will also never purchase another Square Enix game ever again. >_>

I'm confident we'll know exactly how much they've ruined this masterpiece long before launch, and I simply won't buy it.

We'll probably see Genesis in one of the later trailers, and we'll undoubtedly get to see the new battle system that involves even less player input than that of their recent games well before release as well.

[theundeadhero]

I hope you square spy bots are paying attention and it's not too late.

[Ayen]

Nomura indicated that the story in the remake might deviate from the one set out in the original, suggesting the remake may be more of a reimagining.
I think the bold is the problem. People asked for a REMAKE, Square advertised a REMAKE. We are getting a reimagining with major story and gameplay changes instead. That is total bs, and not what was wanted or what was promised.

But people change things in remakes all the time.

[Skyblade]

Nomura indicated that the story in the remake might deviate from the one set out in the original, suggesting the remake may be more of a reimagining.
I think the bold is the problem. People asked for a REMAKE, Square advertised a REMAKE. We are getting a reimagining with major story and gameplay changes instead. That is total bs, and not what was wanted or what was promised.

But people change things in remakes all the time.

But not the core of a game.

They add things, they tweak things, but the game itself is still largely the same. They don't rewrite the plot, the mechanics, and the characters to the point of unrecognizability.

[Bright Shield]

Nomura indicated that the story in the remake might deviate from the one set out in the original, suggesting the remake may be more of a reimagining.
I think the bold is the problem. People asked for a REMAKE, Square advertised a REMAKE. We are getting a reimagining with major story and gameplay changes instead. That is total bs, and not what was wanted or what was promised.

But people change things in remakes all the time.

Small changes are fine. Like I said, the Resident Evil remake was perfect. The Lufia 2 remake was not.

I pretty much see it exactly like Skyblade.

[Ayen]

WHY ARE ALL THE FF VETERANS SO SCARED OF CHANGE?!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HZD7AWlgF_k/VV5jdhv-YXI/AAAAAAAABoY/8nQLhF_qHDE/s1600/Change%2BMeme.jpg

[Wolf Kanno]

So far, the best thing about the remake being announced is watching the fans flip their shit about how they're getting what they want but possibly not in the way they wanted.

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/mj-popcorn.gif?w=660&h=396

Karma is a bitch ain't it?

http://home.eyesonff.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65232&stc=1

[Bright Shield]

Actually, I never wanted a remake from the current Square. They messed up far too many times for me to ever trust them with anything. I haven't even liked a FF since IX to be honest.

Now I wouldn't mind a remake if Square was the same company that it was in the 90s, but it's less than a shell of it's former self. Even then, I certainly wasn't gung ho for a remake. FFVII is fine the way it is. Something like Xenogears would benefit far more from a remake, but again, not in the hands of the current Square.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well I agree with you there.

[Fynn]

The FFIV DS remake was amazing.

And at this point I have also forgotten that this thread wasn't originally about the VII remake XD

[Skyblade]

Remember this, Square?

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/31/bravely-defaults-success-west-making-square-enix-rethink-jrpgs/

It was a year ago. Even my memory isn't that bad.

[Wolf Kanno]

Remember this, Square?

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/31/bravely-defaults-success-west-making-square-enix-rethink-jrpgs/

It was a year ago. Even my memory isn't that bad.

Doesn't mean they wouldn't want to implement some new gameplay elements or change other ones. They just know better than to try to over-analyze what people like. Technically, most people liked FFXII, XIII, and Crisis Core's gameplay so it wouldn't really be a deterrent for them to change the system to them for something like the VII remake.