So....how do you feel about ROMS and emulators?

[Rin Heartilly]

Some hate them, some adore them, most say it's not legal :/

I used to play romulation GBA and DS games when I was younger like Harvest moon, tactics a2, advance wars...etc mainly because I had no access to obtain these games and I had no money.

Nowadays I don't because I can afford to buy my own games and I much prefer having a physical copy I can hold in my hands anyway. And I also want to support my favourite game publishers/companies too.

So how do you feel about the use of emulators and roms?

[Fynn]

Pretty much the same, since up until the GBA era Poland really didn't have access to any of those games. Just like you said, now games are more available and I can afford them since I have a job, so I never emulate anymore.

[Mirage]

How do you define "legal ROMs"? ROMs you've extracted from your own cartridges for personal use?

Emulation is in most countries not illegal, so if you have the game you're not breaking any laws by inserting it into a system where you run it through an emulator.

Any ROM you download, no matter how old, is causing copyright infringement in some way or another, even if you own the game yourself. By downloading a ROM, you are instructing a remote computer to make an unauthorized copy of the file. Even if you own a game, that doesn't mean this remote computer has the necessary rights to make a copy of its version.

It's not legal just because it's an old game.
It's not legal just because it isn't released in your country or region.
It's not legal if it's a fan translation of a game you would otherwise not be able to understand.
It's not legal to download a ROM of a game for one platform just because you own the game for a different platform. Owning FF7 on PC does not make it legal to emulate the PS1 version of FF7.

If you insert a PS1 game disc into your PC and run it through a PS1 emulator that doesn't contain copyrighted code (such as an official BIOS, unless you dumped this BIOS from your own PS1), this is legal in most areas.
If you make a copy of a PS1 game disc for personal use, such as running it with a legal emulator, this is legal in some countries (norway, for example). This is equivalent to making a MP3 rip of a CD you own in order to use it with your portable MP3 player.

The DMCA in the US forbids you from circumventing anti-piracy technology, no matter for what purpose, which means it is probably illegal to emulate most new consoles there, and also forbidden to modify a console to run game backups, even if you actually are only using it for game backups, not pirated copies.


Now I don't really care about any of this, but just don't try to pretend like what you're doing isn't illegal :p

In short: Downloading ROMs is almost always illegal. Running emulators is in most cases legal.

[Fynn]

I'm not saying it is legal, I'm just saying my justifications :p

Also, at the time this was not regulated at all by Polish law.

[Mirage]

I'm not saying it is legal, I'm just saying my justifications :p

Also, at the time this was not regulated at all by Polish law.

I was mostly replying to Rin. When was this, if it wasn't regulated by polish law? Copying ROMs should fall under practically any generic copyright law.

[Fynn]

I'm not saying it is legal, I'm just saying my justifications :p

Also, at the time this was not regulated at all by Polish law.

I was mostly replying to Rin. When was this, if it wasn't regulated by polish law? Copying ROMs should fall under practically any generic copyright law.

Late 90s to early 2000s. We really didn't start regulating anything related to the Internet until later. The joys of living in a post-communist country :monster: You know, the only console available in Poland throughout the 90s was a Pegasus, which was an illegal Russian copy of the NES that could only run some games. So yeah, there's your video game law regulation.

[Mirage]

to be fair, even non-ex commie countries were pretty bad at regulating the internet back then. I have no doubt that if tried in a court back then (assuming the people in that court understood what was being talked about), downloading a ROM would count as copyright infringement on the same level as copying songs from the radio with a casette recorder, which was a real thing back then too, but rarely considered something the police should care about spending resources on.

although i guess if your country didn't care about international copyright laws at all, then it would technically not be illegal to get them

[Fynn]

It's still largely irrelevant at this point, since now everything is regulated as it should be :monster:

Still, i think the thread is less about the legality of it all, and more about ethics. And ethically speaking, I think it's always better to buy than emulate just to show support to the company making the games you like, giving them more opportunities to make better games.

[Mirage]

Ethically, I think it's fair to pirate anything that the publisher doesn't care about making available to my region. Especially now that online distribution is a thing, there is absolutely no good excuse to not make any game available in both europe and america.

If my region as a whole isn't worth the effort of putting it through the PEGI board and uploading it to a distribution service, then they don't deserve my money.

I also don't care if I illegally acquire a game for a different platform than I bougt it for. I generally don't buy a game several times unless they've improved it noticably, or there are some really practical benefits of buying it again. Such as automatic steam cloud saves. I have however not pirated more than two games that were released during the last 5 years, so I don't really have problems sleeping at night.

[Fynn]

Oh, I agree with this! I actually can't remember the last time I pirated something. But yeah, Europe often got the short end of the stick.. I heard Australia got it pretty bad too. That right, Rin?

[Galuf]

All these games id never have played if emulators never existed. Ff1-6(not 3) well probably all becasue ff6 got me into the series. And many many more. And ff8. I like emu's

[Skyblade]

Largely, the existence of official Virtual Consoles has made these irrelevant. The only time I emulate these days is for games that are not legally accessible where I live (release your games worldwide, and I'll stop emulating them!). These days, I can find almost everything on a Virtual Console, PS store, etcetera. So it's not really worth it any more.

[Slothy]

I would disagree about virtual console and playstation classics and the like making this stuff largely irrelevant since none of those even come close to offering the full libraries for the consoles they seek to emulate.

And I'll also say that, legality be damned, we're fast approaching a time when it will be nearly impossible to play some games if it weren't for the efforts of those who make Roms available, and the people coding emulators to play those games. There are simply too many companies that no longer exist to even re-release these things, a general unwillingness by the industry to adequately preserve most titles, and a time limit a far as how long consoles and their physical games can even last before playable copies no longer exist in large numbers.

[Spuuky]

I will play Seiken Densetsu 3 with a fan translation on an emulator with no qualms; as well as any other game that functionally is not for sale to me.

I don't really play games I could just buy, although I did when I was younger (just like in high school I pirated all kinds of games I'd have never been able to purchase). I'm a retired pirate.

I don't care in the least about copyright laws though, they're so asinine.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Yeah, I can totally understand people who are into retro-gaming and don't have the means to play the older games easily.

Unless you plan to rent out warehouse space and drop a ton of money on a lot of different, older systems a la Classic Game Room there's no other way to play a lot of old games. Plus, keeping a lot of those older systems running can be difficult at best.

A lot of the studios that made those games don't even exist anymore, so buying a copy of the game is great if you simply want to own a physical copy of it, but it's not like the creators are getting any of that money.

Stealing brand new games that you can still buy copies of is one thing, but downloading a copy of 1942, or whatever, seems pretty harmless.

[Pumpkin]

I would do it mostly for older games or games I already own but want to take screenshots of.

[Ayen]

I'm poor and it's the only way I can play a lot of old games from my childhood and what I missed out on growing up without spending any money. Emulating newer games is kind of a moot point for me as my computer has a hard enough time running a GameCube emulator let alone any of the new trout.

[Rin Heartilly]

How do you define "legal ROMs"? ROMs you've extracted from your own cartridges for personal use?

Emulation is in most countries not illegal, so if you have the game you're not breaking any laws by inserting it into a system where you run it through an emulator.

Any ROM you download, no matter how old, is causing copyright infringement in some way or another, even if you own the game yourself. By downloading a ROM, you are instructing a remote computer to make an unauthorized copy of the file. Even if you own a game, that doesn't mean this remote computer has the necessary rights to make a copy of its version.

It's not legal just because it's an old game.
It's not legal just because it isn't released in your country or region.
It's not legal if it's a fan translation of a game you would otherwise not be able to understand.
It's not legal to download a ROM of a game for one platform just because you own the game for a different platform. Owning FF7 on PC does not make it legal to emulate the PS1 version of FF7.

If you insert a PS1 game disc into your PC and run it through a PS1 emulator that doesn't contain copyrighted code (such as an official BIOS, unless you dumped this BIOS from your own PS1), this is legal in most areas.
If you make a copy of a PS1 game disc for personal use, such as running it with a legal emulator, this is legal in some countries (norway, for example). This is equivalent to making a MP3 rip of a CD you own in order to use it with your portable MP3 player.

The DMCA in the US forbids you from circumventing anti-piracy technology, no matter for what purpose, which means it is probably illegal to emulate most new consoles there, and also forbidden to modify a console to run game backups, even if you actually are only using it for game backups, not pirated copies.


Now I don't really care about any of this, but just don't try to pretend like what you're doing isn't illegal :p

In short: Downloading ROMs is almost always illegal. Running emulators is in most cases legal.

I'm aware it's illegal but I feel like it's one of those things that are so common (like downloading movies and mp3s) that it's not really enforced (unless it's a new game that you're ripping and charging people for it). But yea I probably worded myself badly xD


Oh, I agree with this! I actually can't remember the last time I pirated something. But yeah, Europe often got the short end of the stick.. I heard Australia got it pretty bad too. That right, Rin?

Yeap :( Our release dates on games are usually the same or a little after Europe's, meaning we always get games 6 months+ after the US, although in the 90's to mid 2000's we often didn't get 1/2 of what the US got anyway so we missed out on a lot of good titles :/ It's better now though, thankfully!

[Mirage]

Largely, the existence of official Virtual Consoles has made these irrelevant. The only time I emulate these days is for games that are not legally accessible where I live (release your games worldwide, and I'll stop emulating them!). These days, I can find almost everything on a Virtual Console, PS store, etcetera. So it's not really worth it any more.

What do you mean by worth it? You can't play PS2 games on neither PS3 (save for a very limited number of PS2 classics) or PS4 (although they are working on it now only because MS caught them off guard with xb360 compatibility). You also can't play your existing game library by inserting PS2 games into your PS3 or PS4, while you can do this with an emulator. This is of course assuming that you actually have a PS3. In the case of nintendo games, it assumes that you have a Wii or WiiU. If you don't, I would most certainly say installing a program and spending maybe half an hour configuring it is worth it. "It" being several hundred dollars in this case.

It might not be worth it for you personally, though, that's true. If you have enough money to keep buying games you've already paid for, then it's probably not worth it :p.

By the way, There is a working xb360 emulator and you can get playable framerates with a high end computer today. It'll probably be usable on the normal computers of 5 years into the future. A PS3 emulator isn't really anywhere close to working, however.

[Slothy]

By the way, There is a working xb360 emulator and you can get playable framerates with a high end computer today. It'll probably be usable on the normal computers of 5 years into the future. A PS3 emulator isn't really anywhere close to working, however.

I wasn't aware of that but it makes sense given the relatively straight forward architecture in the 360. Considering how long it's taken to get PS2 emulation to the state it's in now, I would be surprised if I see a playable PS3 emulator before I'm 50.

[Sephex]

By the way, There is a working xb360 emulator and you can get playable framerates with a high end computer today. It'll probably be usable on the normal computers of 5 years into the future. A PS3 emulator isn't really anywhere close to working, however.

I wasn't aware of that but it makes sense given the relatively straight forward architecture in the 360. Considering how long it's taken to get PS2 emulation to the state it's in now, I would be surprised if I see a playable PS3 emulator before I'm 50.

PS3 emulator 2045 HYPE!!!!!

[Mirage]

By the way, There is a working xb360 emulator and you can get playable framerates with a high end computer today. It'll probably be usable on the normal computers of 5 years into the future. A PS3 emulator isn't really anywhere close to working, however.

I wasn't aware of that but it makes sense given the relatively straight forward architecture in the 360. Considering how long it's taken to get PS2 emulation to the state it's in now, I would be surprised if I see a playable PS3 emulator before I'm 50.

Yes. Xb360 uses a 3-core PowerPC processor, which isn't extremely weird I guess. I can imagine it shares a lot of similarities between other common IBM PPC chips, which lots of people probably understand pretty well. PS3's Cell is a 3GHz PPC at the core, but the SPUs complicate things. The currently best emulator can get in-game in less than 5 demos, and fps is in the single digits even on 8-core i7 systems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5FKb2j2Yx8 That's on an i5 2500k at 4.8 GHz. Might sound like a lot, but in 4 years, this sort of CPU performance will be commonplace. Take into consideration that this computer is emulating a console with a 3GHz CPU in it. In PCSX2, you need nearly 3 GHz to emulate the 300MHz EE found in the PS2 at full speed.

[Rez09]

I have no issues with emulation; there is simply no feasible way for me to experience many of these titles otherwise.

[Freya]

I only use it for older titles I have no access too. Many games for the longest time you couldn't even get on a virtual console basis. I would try to see if I could buy them through ebay or wahtever but if an old game is selling for $100 merely cause it's older, like 20 + years, yeah nope. I'm emulating that shit.

[Mirage]

It's not like the copyright holders earn anything from second hand sales anyway :p

[NeoCracker]

Not only is it fantastic for games you can't get otherwise, but for Rom Hacks as well. There are some absolutely fantastic fan projects out there.

So I own Breath of Fire 2 on my WiiU. I never play it, because I play the Fan-Tranlsation of it (Only fan translation of an official release I recommend over the official), but yeah. I own it. So fuck it, the legality of it is pretty superfluous to me. Nothing wrong with it I say.

Also, Johnbound is a pretty bitchin' Earthbound hack. :p

Emulation allows for a lot of fantastic fan projects for older games that would be impossible without it.

[Slothy]

PS3 emulator 2045 HYPE!!!!!

I better not be waiting until I'm 60 for one. :p

[Raistlin]

I give no trouts about copyright law; if it's a game I want to support, I'll buy it. Otherwise, I will emulate for many different reasons: an older game I don't want to bother looking for, an older game I already own but don't want to play on the console, or even a game I own that I simply want to take screenshots of. I don't pirate many games anymore, but I would have no moral qualms. Copyright laws are not based on any rational view of morality.

My general principle of internet piracy: if, absent the internet, I would still not have paid the manufacturer any money (whether because I already own it, it's too old, or any other reason), then I don't care. If I would have, then I generally just buy it.

[Madame Adequate]

Roms are 100% great and often the only realistic way to actually play a lot of older games. That's becoming less of an issue now that re-releases have become a lot more common, and I tend to get a legal copy when that is an option, but it's not like pirating 30 year old games is some kind of huge issue that is killing the industry.

[Sephex]

Wait, what about ROMulans?

[Ayen]

Wait, what about ROMulans?

Depends on the Romulan for me. Some of them can be outright pricks.

[Madame Adequate]

Romulans are a bunch of incompetent jackasses.

[Sephex]

Wait.

Nero was a ROMulan in Star Trek the Star Trek.

Nero is also a program people used to produce physical copies of pirated music.

ROMs can also be used to produce illegal copies of games.

I just blew this case wide open. Does Admiral Tomalak know about this? How deep does this go?

[krissy]

i am arresting all of you this is an internet citizens arrest

[NeoCracker]

I give no trouts about copyright law;

Our resident Lawyer everybody.

[Ayen]

When the copyright laws are so bad even lawyers don't give a trout.

[Slothy]

I won't claim to know copyright laws anywhere near as well as Raistlin, but from what little I do know, they really are a pile of shit.

[Mirage]

Maybe raistlin should explain to us how things should work instead.

[krissy]

when i was 12 or something equally young
and i had 56kb

the rom site i went to had a copy of ff6 (3 megabytes)

and it said specifically that if you do not own the game, you must delete this file within 24 hours or it is illegal

so every day i spent 2 hours downloading ff6 over and over again
and an hour playing it, if that

[Mirage]

you were a dumb kid

[Rin Heartilly]

when i was 12 or something equally young
and i had 56kb

the rom site i went to had a copy of ff6 (3 megabytes)

and it said specifically that if you do not own the game, you must delete this file within 24 hours or it is illegal

so every day i spent 2 hours downloading ff6 over and over again
and an hour playing it, if that

Does that mean you lost your save file each time too? D: You were a such a sweet summer child :cry:

[Mirage]

i just don't get why he didn't keep it for at least 20 hours. You could have finished the game in that time

[Ayen]

and it said specifically that if you do not own the game, you must delete this file within 24 hours or it is illegal

Wow. That site was full of crap. Even if you own the game it's still illegal (because the copyright owners don't give two trouts if you own the game already or not. I know Nintendo doesn't), and no limited amount of time you have it suddenly make having the ROM any less illegal.

[Mirage]

In some nations, it was in some way legal if it is for preview purposes or something. I think that's how allmp3.ru could stay in business for so long, because russia had laws like that.

[krissy]

1) no i obviously saved the save states i mean what would be the point otherwise lol

2) i couldn't because i had to go to sleep and school during the day, and i didn't play during the weekend cause that was my ps1 time
i only played games on the computer when my parents were at work, which was usually only 3 hours after school, so that left around 2 hours to download the game, and 1 to play. sometimes it was very slow and i didn't get it downloaded before they got home and didn't get to play :(

3) yes i think this was a long time ago when 'previewing' was legal, though im not sure if i was in a country where that kind of law mattered

[Mirage]

You might not be, but the uploader and hoster might. They're just covering their own asses with that notice. They probably never cared about the downloaders other than for ad traffic, if that was a thing yet.

[Aerith's Knight]

If I can't legally buy either the console or the game from a first-party source, then an emulator is a non-problem in my eyes.

If the publisher doesn't give a smurf enough to sell it, why should you feel guilty for emulating it?.

[Raistlin]

when i was 12 or something equally young
and i had 56kb

the rom site i went to had a copy of ff6 (3 megabytes)

and it said specifically that if you do not own the game, you must delete this file within 24 hours or it is illegal

so every day i spent 2 hours downloading ff6 over and over again
and an hour playing it, if that

Ahahaha that is officially funnier than you falling for the rumor that if you leveled Aerith up to level 99 that she wouldn't die.

[Sephiroth]

I do not use them but I think it is funny how mis-informed people on twitch are to use emulators all the time with the reason "I have the original game" and so think downloading the game is okay because obviously most people using emulators do not make a copy of their own copy and download it instead, even if they have the game.

[Mirage]

I do not use them but I think it is funny how mis-informed people on twitch are to use emulators all the time with the reason "I have the original game" and so think downloading the game is okay because obviously most people using emulators do not make a copy of their own copy and download it instead, even if they have the game.

OK isn't the same as legal. I think it's OK to go 5 km/h over the speed limit (and so do millions of other people), but that doesn't mean it's legal. Other things I think are OK, even if they aren't legal include not fastening my seatbelt if I'm just going to drive 50 meters, and also drink alcohol while walking around downtown on a saturday night.

There are also things that are legal that not everyone thinks is OK. Not everyone thinks it's OK with concealed carry in some american states, for example. In some middle eastern countries, it's legal to cut people's hands off for stealing. Do you think that's OK just because it's legal?




when i was 12 or something equally young
and i had 56kb

the rom site i went to had a copy of ff6 (3 megabytes)

and it said specifically that if you do not own the game, you must delete this file within 24 hours or it is illegal

so every day i spent 2 hours downloading ff6 over and over again
and an hour playing it, if that

Ahahaha that is officially funnier than you falling for the rumor that if you leveled Aerith up to level 99 that she wouldn't die.

Now that I think about it, that doesn't really add up... 3 MB takes 8 minutes at 56k with 20% overhead.

[Sephiroth]

OK isn't the same as legal. I think it's OK to go 5 km/h over the speed limit (and so do millions of other people), but that doesn't mean it's legal. Other things I think are OK, even if they aren't legal include not fastening my seatbelt if I'm just going to drive 50 meters, and also drink alcohol while walking around downtown on a saturday night.

There are also things that are legal that not everyone thinks is OK. Not everyone thinks it's OK with concealed carry in some american states, for example. In some middle eastern countries, it's legal to cut people's hands off for stealing. Do you think that's OK just because it's legal?



I do not know what you want from me, I am not the one saying that it is okay. And yes, I think it is okay if it is legal. There would have to be some other examples with real morally questionable decisions (like your violence ones or the use of drugs) where I would say then that even if it is legal, it is not okay. In the emulator case I do not even say that it is okay, so that reply was completely unnecessary. And yes, those people I mentioned think the use of it is okay because it is legal, which it is not (neither okay, not legal). That is exactly what I wanted to say here.

[krissy]

i rarely ever got speeds better than 1 kb/s from that website and it jumped up and down all the time... 1.5 hours might be a more truthful estimate

eventually i just kept the rom until my harddrive died in the great virus invasion of '98

[Mirage]

OK isn't the same as legal. I think it's OK to go 5 km/h over the speed limit (and so do millions of other people), but that doesn't mean it's legal. Other things I think are OK, even if they aren't legal include not fastening my seatbelt if I'm just going to drive 50 meters, and also drink alcohol while walking around downtown on a saturday night.

There are also things that are legal that not everyone thinks is OK. Not everyone thinks it's OK with concealed carry in some american states, for example. In some middle eastern countries, it's legal to cut people's hands off for stealing. Do you think that's OK just because it's legal?



I do not know what you want from me, I am not the one saying that it is okay. And yes, I think it is okay if it is legal. There would have to be some other examples with real morally questionable decisions (like your violence ones or the use of drugs) where I would say then that even if it is legal, it is not okay. In the emulator case I do not even say that it is okay, so that reply was completely unnecessary. And yes, those people I mentioned think the use of it is okay because it is legal, which it is not (neither okay, not legal). That is exactly what I wanted to say here.

Do they specifically say it's legal because they own the game?

You've already agreed that the morality of actions are independent of the legality. Why is this different when it comes to copyright law?

I never said you thought it was ok.

[Sephex]

http://img.pandawhale.com/172320-community-troy-pizzas-fire-gif-5M3r.gif

[Ayen]

http://img.pandawhale.com/172320-community-troy-pizzas-fire-gif-5M3r.gif

Never before in my life have I seen a single image so accurately describe a situation.