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Forsaken Lover
01-18-2016, 03:03 PM
Bemused Observation: Characters who join later in role-playing games tend to be shunned or not used as much.

Clarification: I never used Fang in FFXIII for this reason. Same for Amarant and Eiko in FFIX. They have to be two of the biggest latecomers in RPG history.

Query: Why is this? Have people just become set in their ways by this point? Maybe they're attached to the characters they have already and have formed a bond with?

Addendum: I think I made this thread before but I cannot recall.

Formalhaut
01-18-2016, 03:16 PM
You kidding me? Fang is one of the best party members in FFXIII! I used her near constantly. And she first becomes playable in chapter seven, which is not really late in this game.

Fynn
01-18-2016, 03:19 PM
Yeah, Fang is the most tolerable character in the game by a long shot, along with Sazh.

Forsaken Lover
01-18-2016, 03:22 PM
You kidding me? Fang is one of the best party members in FFXIII! I used her near constantly. And she first becomes playable in chapter seven, which is not really late in this game.

It's a 13 Chapter game. Chapter 7 is over halfway done.

By this point you've already been pretty thoroughly introduced and informed about everyone else. If you liked them, as I did, then you don't need someone else. Splitting up the party into teams ensured you either really loved or hated them since you had only Lightning/Hope and Sazh/Vanille for a long, long time.

Also the lack of Snow made me fixate on his return.



And this is not a XIII bash thread, Fynn.

Fynn
01-18-2016, 03:27 PM
I'm not bashing anyone. I just praised Fang and Sazh. How is that bashing? Sorry if it wasn't strong praise, I'm doing my best here, okay? :p

Xenogears was actually pretty bad about this, with characters being added after more than halfway through the game, but while some were really negligible, like Maria, Emeralda was actually pretty cool and is pretty popular with the fanbase, even if (or maybe because of the fact that) her sidequest got reduced to a single scene.

VeloZer0
01-18-2016, 03:51 PM
I think it really depends on the game. The biggest problem I have with characters that arrive late is that they are always lagging behind in terms of learning skills and abilities, which often makes them more trouble then they are worth. Should all things be equal then I don't think I am that biased against them, just going from examples in this thread I use Emerelda, Eiko and Amerant as my mains.

I do think the are easier to forget about from a story point of view, being around for a shorter period of time means they have less memorable moments.

Fynn
01-18-2016, 03:55 PM
Oh right, Child of Light is another example where you get two party members really late. But while Oengus was my favorite to use for many reasons (AMAZING attack stat, big furry guy, need I say more?), Gen was pretty lame. i mean, yeah, she had that time manipulation magic that was sorely missed after that one party member leaves, but it really isn't done as well and she joins you just before the final dungeon so you really don't get that much time to grow attached to her.

Formalhaut
01-18-2016, 05:14 PM
It's a 13 Chapter game. Chapter 7 is over halfway done.

By this point you've already been pretty thoroughly introduced and informed about everyone else.

Yeah, but that's based solely on the number of chapters. Chapter 8 is tiny in comparison to chapter 7, which is Fang's introduction chapter and she gets plenty of development. Not to mention we already know a bit about her from Vanille's story, so we already have been introduced to her, of sorts. She doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, I felt she integrated rather well.

Even if we took chapter 7 as being technically halfway, that's still half the game to use Fang and get to know her more. She receives more plot development throughout chapter 10 and 11. The only reason why I could see someone not using her is because she starts off without the ravager role (which does hamper chain building) but when the roles open up to everyone, literally giving her a single spell makes her usable. She's slow to start, but she becomes a really powerful combatant.

Spuuky
01-18-2016, 05:46 PM
I don't care when they show up; I'll use them if they seem more interesting to me than the alternatives.

The examples that immediately sprung to mind for me were Chrono Trigger (Magus), Dragon Age (Loghain), Gogo/Umaro (FF6), and like half the characters in Dragon Quest V. I've definitely used some or all of them when I felt like it.

Fang wouldn't have even occurred to me as someone you get "late." I guess you do.


I do think the are easier to forget about from a story point of view, being around for a shorter period of time means they have less memorable moments.Only if they don't show up at all prior to becoming an available character?

Del Murder
01-18-2016, 06:29 PM
If the game has any kind of skill or experience system that is based on how much you use the character in battle (Espers in FFVI for example), then I hate getting late characters if they don't come with skill/exp points that are on pace with what I have on other characters. Also if they are mostly story irrelevant (Aramant) then that annoys me. Otherwise, I welcome them to the team! Gogo/Umaro are great examples of this since, although they are completely irrelevant to the story (they are clearly meant to be), they don't need magic points so you can slot them right in to a party and be fine. Vincent (FFVII) is another great example since the materia system allows everyone to be interchangeably good and he also has an interesting backstory that you can get into.

Ayen
01-19-2016, 03:23 AM
I don't care when they show up; I'll use them if they seem more interesting to me than the alternatives.


If the game has any kind of skill or experience system that is based on how much you use the character in battle (Espers in FFVI for example), then I hate getting late characters if they don't come with skill/exp points that are on pace with what I have on other characters.

Pretty much this. If I like said character better than what I have I'll use them unless their stats are lower than the team I'm using already. Then I'd probably just leave it the way it is.

Mr. Carnelian
01-19-2016, 11:45 AM
One of the examples that pops into my head is Legion in Mass Effect 2.

Everyone levels up at the same rate, and Legion's a fairly versatile tech/tank, so in terms of gameplay Legion's totally usable. But, in terms of character development, Legion does get pretty short-changed, and he appears well over three quarters of the way through, so you can't really use him (for the main story at least) for that long.

Legion did get a very important role in Mass Effect 3 - although he wasn't playable - mind you, so at least they tried to make up for it.

Fynn
01-19-2016, 11:47 AM
If the game has any kind of skill or experience system that is based on how much you use the character in battle (Espers in FFVI for example), then I hate getting late characters if they don't come with skill/exp points that are on pace with what I have on other characters. Also if they are mostly story irrelevant (Aramant) then that annoys me. Otherwise, I welcome them to the team! Gogo/Umaro are great examples of this since, although they are completely irrelevant to the story (they are clearly meant to be), they don't need magic points so you can slot them right in to a party and be fine. Vincent (FFVII) is another great example since the materia system allows everyone to be interchangeably good and he also has an interesting backstory that you can get into.

Holy shit, YES! Umaro was BRUTAL! :D

Crop
01-19-2016, 11:59 AM
I think FFXII did it best. You get Ashe late in the game but she comes with all the stats and LP's that you've gathered for the rest of the characters.

I can't remember if FFX does this with Auron and Rikku, can anyone clarify?

Ayen
01-19-2016, 04:11 PM
I think FFXII did it best. You get Ashe late in the game but she comes with all the stats and LP's that you've gathered for the rest of the characters.

I can't remember if FFX does this with Auron and Rikku, can anyone clarify?

I think they do. I remember Auron being a little stronger than the rest of my party when he first joined.

When Ashe joined my party in XII I made her party leader and never looked back.

Formalhaut
01-19-2016, 10:26 PM
I would hardly even call Ashe and Penelo's arrival 'late' to be honest. Both characters were introduced before they were made playable anyway.

Laddy
01-20-2016, 08:54 AM
The worst at this is those you get up to three party members in the Director's Cut of Star Ocean. You get characters on the last chapter of the game.

Depression Moon
01-21-2016, 03:37 AM
I usually use everyone no matter how late in the game, but there are some rpgs that have too many playable characters and in the case of Adventures of Horai High, the cat is not going to be used.

Skyblade
01-21-2016, 02:35 PM
Although they both had plenty of issues, neither FFXII nor FFXIII had a problem with introducing characters too late. Ashe still arrives well before any of the actual main events of the story get gone, and she's on-par with the team when she arrives. And Fang arrives before Gran Pulse, which is where 80% of the game's content is anyway. Not to mention the whole Crystarium cap means that she's not actually too far behind the rest of the party.

Formalhaut
01-21-2016, 06:16 PM
Although they both had plenty of issues, neither FFXII nor FFXIII had a problem with introducing characters too late. Ashe still arrives well before any of the actual main events of the story get gone, and she's on-par with the team when she arrives. And Fang arrives before Gran Pulse, which is where 80% of the game's content is anyway. Not to mention the whole Crystarium cap means that she's not actually too far behind the rest of the party.

Fang arrives in Palumpolum which is when all the major events and the resolution of personal dramas (Hope/Snow, Lightning lightens up a bit) occurs.

Fynn
01-21-2016, 06:25 PM
But Fang has appeared in the story before, even if not as a party member. She interacts a bit with Snow and is mentioned by Vanille a lot. True, all the drama not related to Oerba happens before, but really, so what? Gang gets plent of focus (hehe) on Gran Pulse, which is why it's really not a problem that she appears later. And when it comes to gameplay, Sky is dead-on.

Forsaken Lover
01-21-2016, 06:38 PM
Although they both had plenty of issues, neither FFXII nor FFXIII had a problem with introducing characters too late. Ashe still arrives well before any of the actual main events of the story get gone, and she's on-par with the team when she arrives. And Fang arrives before Gran Pulse, which is where 80% of the game's content is anyway. Not to mention the whole Crystarium cap means that she's not actually too far behind the rest of the party.

Fang arrives in Palumpolum which is when all the major events and the resolution of personal dramas (Hope/Snow, Lightning lightens up a bit) occurs.

Exactly, all the important stuff happened and then Fang showed up. Looking forward to Snow's and Hope's inevitable confrontation was a big reason I kept playing XIII, Sazh's and Vanille's confrontation was perfect and in my current run I've come to appreciate Lightning's development.

And then there's Fang, who...um...doesn't really add anything to the story whatsoever. The rest of the team has co-character development so you can't really do one without the other. Snow's character without Hope would be entirely different for instance. Vanille's character though would be exactly the same without Fang because she spent far more time with Sazh.

Fynn
01-21-2016, 06:40 PM
Oh, come on. The aggressive lesbianing was worth it :p

Formalhaut
01-21-2016, 06:48 PM
I have to disagree. Fang's involvement in Vanille's story is critical to her feelings of guilt and shame. These feelings come to a head in Pulse and Vanille's eidolon awakening (side note: she gets hers so late).

She also becomes Ms. Exposition several times in Palumpolum and Pulse, and bonded with Lightning during that time. Heck, she even has an optional scene with Sazh discussing his role as a father (a character she hasn't really spent much time with too much).

She becomes even more important in Lightning Returns. Basically, while she isn't so much involved with the personal team dramas which basically made chapters 2-7, she propels the game along into the second act.

Chibi Youkai
01-22-2016, 04:44 AM
Chrono Cross is the worst for this, especially since there are characters you can't even get the first time around. And none of them have much of any character development at all to offset it. I always ended up using characters from earlier in, even after spending stupid amounts of time trying to get one specific character or another, just out of familiarity.

Pumpkin
01-28-2016, 02:42 PM
Depends on the game. Some games can bring characters in late and it works well, others cannot. A lot of it does depend on where they start out and how much you have invested in your other characters too. It does make me sad though when I really like a character and I don't get too much time with them because of this

Wolf Kanno
01-28-2016, 09:29 PM
It largely depends on how it's handled, specifically whether the late character has been introduced early in the plot and simply joins you late in the story (Magus from CT) and whether the game utilizes a time consuming customization system and how the game compensates for the tardy party member.

Basically if the latecomer shows up late in the story, then they will probably be ignored by the player who has more emotionally invested in the characters who have been around longer. The only way to get around this is by either having the character just have a truly demanding personality that is easy to flesh out and hard to ignore or to simply have the character introduced in the plot earlier so they can be fleshed out even though they haven't actually joined.

Game mechanics-wise, it depends on how complicated and time consuming building characters can be. One of the reasons why many of the story characters are trout upon by players in FFTactics for example is that they start off far behind the characters you've been building and while they can be pretty broken in their own right, some players don't really want to spend the time to build them up. It's why latecomers or "secret" characters tend to have simpler builds offset with better stats or abilities.

Galuf
02-06-2016, 06:32 PM
I think FFXII did it best. You get Ashe late in the game but she comes with all the stats and LP's that you've gathered for the rest of the characters.

I can't remember if FFX does this with Auron and Rikku, can anyone clarify?


sadly not crop... theres a reason i dislike rikku. but really its not too hard to level them up. just annoying to see