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Crop
02-25-2016, 06:12 PM
So I'm playing through KH2 Final Mix (gameplay and worlds are great, story is still very ehh) and I've started to become a little confused about the keyblade.

So as I understand it, the keyblade chose Sora in KH1 because he had such a strong good heart, and Riku was passed over because he chose the Darkness where Sora fought against it (as seen when darkness takes Destiny Island in KH1). OK all fine so far.

Then actually Riku CAN weild a keyblade as seen in KH1 at Hollow Bastion because...why? His heart is stronger at the time apparently but what about him being knee deep in darkness? Then Kairi also gets a keyblade randomly in KH2, handed over by Riku who had it for some reason but who chose not to use it for some reason.

Then Roxas can use it and it's like wtf, I thought he didn't even have a heart. I know he's Soras nobody but can the blade not tell the difference? Then I hear there's a prequel where there's like 3 or 4 keyblade holders or something, even though some of them aren't really on the side of light, then there was a war where a whole bunch of keyblades were used?

So how come the keyblade has gone from a powerful, special and unique weapon to one where everyone and their mothers is using one? It makes me wonder why the hell Donald and Goofy don't get one since they've shown to be strong loyal and pure of heart, probably moreso than most of the actual wielders except maybe Sora and King Mickey.

I dunno, I always though the keyblade was kinda cool but they're getting thrown around like it's no big deal really, and not really explaining why anymore.

EDIT: ach! Can someone change the thread title to what it's obviously supposed to be? Creating threads on my phone is such a ball ache.

Fynn
02-25-2016, 06:26 PM
To get a Keyblade, you need to be marked by a Keyblade wielder as a successor before that.

Riku and Kairi were marked by Terra and Aqua respectively. Riku was rejected by the Keyblade because his heart gave into darkness, and thgoats different than being in control of the Darkness as Darkness is much harder to control. Now, Sora had Ven's heart within him. Ben was a Keyblade wielder before and because of him Sora can use a Keyblade, and he's also the reason why Roxas looks nothing like Sora - he actually has Ven's heart, because when Sora released Kairi's heart from within him, Ven's also went free. So Roxas is technically Ven without his memories. This'll make more sense once you get to Birth By Sleep, and I hope you played Chain of Memories, because some concepts get tricky otherwise :p

As for why everyone has Keyblades now, you want the Watsonian or Doylian explanation?

The Watsonian explanation would say that at the start of Sora's journey the Keyblade Masters had been long lost and the world was in darkness, so they're kinda like the Jedi in a New Hope, and after Sora wins against Ansem, there is more light, more Keyblade wielders, yay.

As for the Doylian explanation - KH was created first as a standalone game, and after that it universe got expanded. Hence the first game is simplistic compared to the rest - it's what happens with series like this, you can't really stop the change :p

Formalhaut
02-25-2016, 06:31 PM
To get a Keyblade, you need to be marked by a Keyblade wielder as a successor before that.

Riku and Kairi were marked by Terra and Aqua respectively. Riku was rejected by the Keyblade because his heart gave into darkness, and thgoats different than being in control of the Darkness as Darkness is much harder to control. Now, Sora had Ven's heart within him. Ben was a Keyblade wielder before and because of him Sora can use a Keyblade, and he's also the reason why Roxas looks nothing like Sora - he actually has Ven's heart, because when Sora released Kairi's heart from within him, Ven's also went free. So Roxas is technically Ven without his memories. This'll make more sense once you get to Birth By Sleep, and I hope you played Chain of Memories, because some concepts get tricky otherwise :p

As for why everyone has Keyblades now, you want the Wattsonian or Doylian explanation?

The Wattsonian explanation would say that at the start of Sora's journey the Keyblade Masters had been long lost and the world was in darkness, so they're kinda like the Jedi in a New Hope, and after Sora wins against Ansem, there is more light, more Keyblade wielders, yay.

As for the Doylian explanation - KH was created first as a standalone game, and after that it universe got expanded. Hence the first game is simplistic compared to the rest - it's what happens with series like this, you can't really stop the change :p

http://i.imgur.com/tgRbfgu.gif

Fynn
02-25-2016, 06:32 PM
What? There were a lot of questions. It's all simple if you play all the games in order, because then it isn't an info dump and you learn all this organically :p

Crop
02-25-2016, 06:34 PM
So Sora wasn't chosen because he was a worthy guy, he was chosen because someone else's heart is in his? Also, does that mean he has another nobody then? Or is the nobody mixed up with Ven's heart and will never be free? Because obviously for Sora to continue he had to merge back with his nobody. I feel like I've been playing as a false hero this whole time if that's the case.

Fynn
02-25-2016, 06:45 PM
It does kind of turn out like that and is a bit of a bigger issue later, but overall Sora later grows enough on his own for his Heart to be worthy, which is how he materializes in I after being turned into a Heartless and being able to use a Keyblade without Ven's heart

Roxas is basically the biggest woobie in the series and 358/2 Days really explored that. Still, he's treated as a separate entity from Ventus. Sora 's heart actually accommodated Ventus' when he became "broken" at the end of Birth By Sleep and his body is somewhere else, waiting for his heart to return so that he may awaken again. Roxas was technically Sora's nobody in that respect, but with Ven's heart inside, which paradoxically disqualifies him from being a Nobody (although it later turns out Nobodies did actually grow hearts overtime after all).

So yeah, it may sound like a bummer, but a lot of it is very nicely explored in the series. The whole aim of Sora's journey at this point, after 3D, is helping bring back all those people who were not allowed to properly exist in one way or another

Sephiroth
02-27-2016, 12:32 AM
So I'm playing through KH2 Final Mix (gameplay and worlds are great, story is still very ehh) and I've started to become a little confused about the keyblade.

So as I understand it, the keyblade chose Sora in KH1 because he had such a strong good heart, and Riku was passed over because he chose the Darkness where Sora fought against it (as seen when darkness takes Destiny Island in KH1). OK all fine so far.

Then actually Riku CAN weild a keyblade as seen in KH1 at Hollow Bastion because...why? His heart is stronger at the time apparently but what about him being knee deep in darkness? Then Kairi also gets a keyblade randomly in KH2, handed over by Riku who had it for some reason but who chose not to use it for some reason.

Then Roxas can use it and it's like wtf, I thought he didn't even have a heart. I know he's Soras nobody but can the blade not tell the difference? Then I hear there's a prequel where there's like 3 or 4 keyblade holders or something, even though some of them aren't really on the side of light, then there was a war where a whole bunch of keyblades were used?

So how come the keyblade has gone from a powerful, special and unique weapon to one where everyone and their mothers is using one? It makes me wonder why the hell Donald and Goofy don't get one since they've shown to be strong loyal and pure of heart, probably moreso than most of the actual wielders except maybe Sora and King Mickey.

I dunno, I always though the keyblade was kinda cool but they're getting thrown around like it's no big deal really, and not really explaining why anymore.

EDIT: ach! Can someone change the thread title to what it's obviously supposed to be? Creating threads on my phone is such a ball ache.


To shorten the entire thing:

1. Riku was chosen to wield the Keyblade of the Realm of Light. Riku was no longer worthy. But he is a Chosen One nonetheless.
Riku found his own way of Living. He did not push away Darkness but dealt with it and learned to live in Twilight therefore he began to wield the Keyblade of Twilight once he learned to live with the remaining part of Xehanort that was connected to his heart.
2. Kairi is a Princess of Hearts - who are basically cheaters because they have a bunch of extra rules about their existence and abilities. But everything important is, she became a Chosen One when she came in contact with Aqua (Sora/Ventus - Sky/Wind, Riku/Terra - Earth, Kairi/Aqua - Sea/Water).
3. Roxas is Sora's Nobody which metaphorically makes him Sora himself. Not literally as Nobodies become own individuals but their existence is always a part of the Somebody entity. And thus they share essential aspects of them, physically, spiritually, et cetera.
4. There were many Keyblade Users. Birth by Sleep alone show a bunch of them after the Keyblade War is over already. I do not really want to spoil more though.


So Sora wasn't chosen because he was a worthy guy, he was chosen because someone else's heart is in his? Also, does that mean he has another nobody then? Or is the nobody mixed up with Ven's heart and will never be free? Because obviously for Sora to continue he had to merge back with his nobody. I feel like I've been playing as a false hero this whole time if that's the case.

1. No, Sora very well also is strong. It is not just because of Ventus alone. But it is not like Ventus plays no role at all. In Kingdom Hearts we already learn that every heart has a different kind of strength. Sora's strength comes from his Sailor Moon-like bond of friendship.
2. He has no other Nobody, no.
3. Roxas is both mixed with Sora as well as Ventus. Same goes for Xion who is a clone that was supposed to absorb Sora's existence and replace him. Xigbar even saw Ventus in Xion.
4. Sora was able to continue just because of plot - and Kairi with her superpowers gave him back a body. But as we were able to see, to be fully and completely restored, he had to be reunited with Roxas and Roxas had to accept that before everything was fine. That needed the entire KH2 until it happened. In the end even Roxas realized that the Somebody he was born of was so special because of the friendship he appreciates.

And Kingdom Hearts was never supposed to be standalone. The ending and secret ending show that.

Fynn
02-27-2016, 06:59 AM
Standalone in that they made one and decided on a sequel later. The secret ending was only a conceptual video of what may happen.


But yeah, the games make it a point to stress that Sora is in fact the true hero because he has a heart that can connect to anyone

Sephiroth
02-27-2016, 09:35 PM
When was that ever said? The entire ending says KH II.

Fynn
02-27-2016, 09:50 PM
Honestly, it's logic. You don't know how a game will do, so you don't go planning a sequel already. And the tone of later games is noticeably different. And if the secret ending foreshadows any game, it's mostly 358/2 Days ;) It was a concept trailer for what they might do in the future.

Yes, there's a cliffhanger ending, but that doesn't mean they had all the plots planned out. They just wanted to make room for a sequel. In that way KH I was standalone.

Scotty_ffgamer
02-28-2016, 12:18 AM
I can't remember where I read or heard it as it's been a while since I've looked up kh stuff, but I've heard that the secret ending just had ideas they could possibly use for a sequel but hadn't planned much out at that point. I'd say they probably wanted to do more and put the seeds for a sequel while also making it a satisfying piece on its own in case it wasn't successful. It didn't sound like most of the planning for kh2 began until after the first game was released and deemed successful. I'll have to see if I can find that info in more detail again.

Formalhaut
02-28-2016, 12:20 AM
Same here Scotty; I'm pretty sure it is conceptual in nature.

Sephiroth
02-28-2016, 12:38 AM
Honestly, it's logic. You don't know how a game will do, so you don't go planning a sequel already. And the tone of later games is noticeably different. And if the secret ending foreshadows any game, it's mostly 358/2 Days ;) It was a concept trailer for what they might do in the future.

Yes, there's a cliffhanger ending, but that doesn't mean they had all the plots planned out. They just wanted to make room for a sequel. In that way KH I was standalone.

You never know how something play out, that does not mean that you are not allowed to make your story with a sequel in mind, whether it gets done later or not is totally irrelevant für that situation. That is logic. The entire plot of the ending, not just the secret ending demanded a sequel. You also do not need to have a fleshed out plot for a sequel to write an ending that demands a sequel. The ending of both versions of Kingdom Hearts I, the addition of Xemnas in Final Mix and the secret ending all show that. As said, that never says that something cannot fail so no sequel comes out but a creator is always allowed to plan it. You basically just answered the secret ending part but that was not all I mentioned. X-2 was planned very early as well, by the way as they did even mention they could not let a story be which just ended like X.