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Bubba
03-18-2016, 06:00 PM
I'm not gonna spoiler-tag this because the game is nearly twenty years old, dammit :colbert:

The death of Aeris is commonly regarded as one of the most shocking moments in video game history. Did Squaresoft get it wrong though? Which of the main characters do you think should have perished instead? Whether you think it may have had more emotional impact or whether you just hated them with a passion.

Formalhaut
03-18-2016, 06:10 PM
For sheer emotional impact? Barret. Yes, he swears plenty and has questionable social standards, but he is the beating, raving heart of AVALANCHE, and provides many of the game's comic moments. He's an early foil to Cloud, constantly wondering the hell is up with his hallucinations and freak outs. He's been your partner since the first bombing mission. He's the founding member of AVALANCHE. He has a sweet daughter.

Then he dies. AVALANCHE is rudderless, Tifa is heartbroken. Cloud's fighting buddy is dead. And Marlene is still in Midgar, waiting for her daddy to return. Now that's going to hurt.

On a more practical level, having Barret die would swing the story more back towards Shinra, which was always where the story was strongest. Aerith's death is firmly Sephiroth's fault, and continues the story down his path. If Barret died - perhaps by Shinra or stopping the train to Corel - Shinra doesn't settle into a 'strange bedfellows' situation like they end up in disc 2 & 3.

Aerith's death was emotional, but Barret's would be equally so. I could have also said Tifa, come to think of it.

Vermachtnis
03-18-2016, 07:05 PM
I said Red XIII because dead puppies are sad. Also that would have been the end of a species.

Laddy
03-19-2016, 02:05 AM
Agreed with Red XIII. A young and the (seemingly) last of his species dying a warrior's death and taking his wisdom of the planet along with it. Plus seeing an animal die is just said, especially if he's young and intelligent. I'd have him say be something that betrays his age like "I'm sacred" or something. It'd put things in perspective.

Elly
03-19-2016, 07:01 AM
Cait Sith... just because i hate him that much...

qwertysaur
03-19-2016, 09:14 AM
Tifa.

Picture this. She was actually killed by Sephiroth during the Nibelheim indecent, and Clouds mako poisoning has warped his mind to make him think some random girl is really her, on top of his adopted persona of Zack. I'll call this girl Doris, and the is the Tifa you meet during the game.

This would completely change the game because now you have all of AVALANCHE lying to Cloud and manipulating him for almost the entire game. Barret and Doris know the truth, and see Cloud as a strong fighter and a tool. Now the game is everyone trying to use Cloud to further some agenda. AVALANCHE to fight ShinRa. Sephiroth to destroy the world. Cait Sith changes from just a spy to trying to manipulate Cloud to serve ShinRa, since ShinRa probably knows that Tifa died and Doris is lying. Doris comes to like the feeling of being Clouds friend and begins to regret the ruse, but Barret convinces her that it's for the good of the planet, and they keep up the ruse.

Aerith, RedXIII and Cid have no idea about this. but Doris gets worried when Cloud and Aerith become closer, and to her surprise, jealous as well.

Then when you have Cloud falling apart at Northern crater, everything collapses just like the game. but now he has to come to terms that the Tifa he remembers is dead, and the Tifa he now knows (Doris) was another lie. The shock breaks him, and he has an arc going through trying to learn how to trust again. Barret and Doris see just how broken Cloud really is, and come to regret using Cloud. Of course Cid gives them a verbal beatdown and takes Cloud on a journey to find out who he really is. RedXIII comes too because Barret and Doris are just as bad as those they are fighting.

The party finally reconciles after Barret and Doris save Cloud and company from one of the WEAPONS, or from ShinRa. Or from Hojo.

Bubba
03-19-2016, 11:08 AM
qwertysaur... that was phenomenal.

maybee
03-20-2016, 12:24 PM
Makes more sense too, because the injury Tifa received from Sephiroth was quite serious and she has no scar or anything.

Shiva95
03-20-2016, 02:38 PM
Cait Sith because I just can't stand him...

Sephiroth
03-20-2016, 09:17 PM
Tifa being dead makes no sense at all.

Cloud's confabulation is the direct result of meeting Tifa, because Tifa has Tifa's memories and his shame subconsciously caused the JENOVA-S-cells to awake so he read her memories and suppressed the part of himself that knew what was true to match Tifa's memories. "Doris" does not have Tifa's memories. It would have to be written different.

The basic idea is not bad.

Slothy
03-21-2016, 02:16 AM
Tifa being dead makes no sense at all.

Cloud's confabulation is the direct result of meeting Tifa, because Tifa has Tifa's memories and his shame subconsciously caused the JENOVA-S-cells to awake so he read her memories and suppressed the part of himself that knew what was true to match Tifa's memories. "Doris" does not have Tifa's memories. It would have to be written different.

The basic idea is not bad.

If that is a cannon explanation for his mental instability then that is one of the finest things I've ever heard. Square really needed to never try and add or retcon things in FFVII.

And the idea he was reading her mind and matching her memories, aside from being something it is never established Jenova can do, is absurd since a large part of her story is knowing Clouds memories don't match hers at all.

Forsaken Lover
03-21-2016, 02:55 AM
Sephiroth: "Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you."

Now Seph is full of it about Cloud being a clone but his explanation of Jenova's abilities lines up with what Ifalna said

Ifalna:"That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

Finally, when Tifa recollects her reunion with Cloud, there are several white flashes and then Cloud turns from gurgling mess to a functioning being. Also when Tifa asks him how long it's been, there is another flash before he says five years.

It was obviously intended to represent the Jenova Cells scotchtaping his mind together.'

Five years of Hojo's experiments destroyed Cloud's mind, basically reducing him to the same kind of state you find him in after he falls in the Lifestream. In fact, I always felt like his becoming that way after Sephiroth was done with him was less a product of Cloud falling in the Lifestream and more the fact the Jenova Cells were no longer keeping him functioning.

Anyway, Cloud's trauma and also his own feelings of inadequacy aboutfailing to enter SOLDIER came together to create the fake persona we see for about half the game. The Jenova Cells needed him up and moving but it was his wish to have fulfilled his dream that made him try to emulate both his friend Zack and his idol Sephiroth, both SOLDIER 1st Class.

Slothy
03-21-2016, 03:02 AM
Fair enough. It's been so long since I played all the way through FFVII I didn't remember those parts at all. Still don't really care for them but meh. What can you do?

Midgar Mist
03-21-2016, 06:19 AM
FYI: Cait Sith cannot perish, you would have to kill Reeve for that

I say Barrett because, while I dislike Tifa, i still dont think she deserves to die. I just want her to be broken hearted for losing out to Aerith. I want her to live so she can learn to think for herself for once, and with Barrett dead thats even more possible.

Sephiroth
03-21-2016, 09:03 AM
Tifa being dead makes no sense at all.

Cloud's confabulation is the direct result of meeting Tifa, because Tifa has Tifa's memories and his shame subconsciously caused the JENOVA-S-cells to awake so he read her memories and suppressed the part of himself that knew what was true to match Tifa's memories. "Doris" does not have Tifa's memories. It would have to be written different.

The basic idea is not bad.

If that is a cannon explanation for his mental instability then that is one of the finest things I've ever heard. Square really needed to never try and add or retcon things in FFVII.

And the idea he was reading her mind and matching her memories, aside from being something it is never established Jenova can do, is absurd since a large part of her story is knowing Clouds memories don't match hers at all.

Except that is how JENOVA eradicated the Cetra and got the form it was found in by Professor Gast. So yes, it was established. In the game. And in the Ultimania Omega. Sephiroth and JENOVA have some impressive abilities. Some of them include reading minds and memories and changing your form, language and speech. It is not absurd at all. You just do not know what confabulation is as confabulation is the reason why Cloud's memories and Tifa's are not equal. You take a a piece of information that is not true in a context and make it your truth by mixing it together with something else. Your brain does that to prevent itself from damage and you get convinced that is how it happened. The part of you that does know it cannot be gets pushed away down into your subconsciousness. Cloud suffers a case of fantasy-more inconsistent as not fully fleshed out-confabulation and that is caused in FFVII through him getting memories he read from Tifa. No one except Sephiroth can actually fully and consciously control JENOVA cells. But the others who have them subconsciously activate them. That is how the clone notice the presence through the echo of Sephiroth or how Cloud awoke his cells for confabulation. And Tifa does know the truth because Cloud's brain only took the part of the story that he needed and not exactly the truth. He took a truth from Tifa, ripped it out of its context and fused it with a truth of another context to make up his own story. Tifa stayed quiet because she was afraid. But she always knew.


FYI: Cait Sith cannot perish, you would have to kill Reeve for that


Eh ~ Cait Sith is an AI. He can perish.

Loony BoB
03-21-2016, 03:10 PM
I think they got it right with Aeris dying. I was pretty happy with it.

If someone else *had* to die, I'd have made it Vincent, probably. He's like a constant downer.

maybee
03-22-2016, 10:10 AM
If someone else *had* to die, I'd have made it Vincent, probably. He's like a constant downer.

If you were experimented upon to become a bunch of monsters you would be a bit down in the dumps as well mate. :/

Loony BoB
03-23-2016, 07:12 PM
Yeah. I might even want to die at that point.

Wolf Kanno
03-23-2016, 07:44 PM
The issue with the "Cloud is just copying Tifa's memories" in terms of why Tifa is relevant, is that Sephiroth pretty much explains this to Cloud to screw with him into thinking he's not real. Yes, it's within Jenova's abilities to copy and alter memories, but the truth is that Cloud doesn't need Tifa's memories to function because we all know he was actually there, and knows details Tifa doesn't know (and even some he shouldn't actually know) about the Nibelheim incident. So I would argue the theory that Tifa was never actually there is still a relevant way of taking out Tifa. Face it, her being there only serves the purpose to make the wham episode even a thing, as she can verify that Zack was doing all the things Cloud was doing. So yeah, you can still kill her off and make the Tifa you see not be Tifa, and not actually create a plot hole because of how many red herrings there are for this whole dumb revelation.

Back on topic, I'd kill Yuffie because I hate her but Tifa is my second choice. I kind of like the idea of her being a figment of Cloud's imagination as it actually makes her more interesting than what we got.

Sephiroth
03-23-2016, 09:17 PM
The issue with the "Cloud is just copying Tifa's memories" in terms of why Tifa is relevant, is that Sephiroth pretty much explains this to Cloud to screw with him into thinking he's not real. Yes, it's within Jenova's abilities to copy and alter memories, but the truth is that Cloud doesn't need Tifa's memories to function because we all know he was actually there, and knows details Tifa doesn't know (and even some he shouldn't actually know) about the Nibelheim incident. So I would argue the theory that Tifa was never actually there is still a relevant way of taking out Tifa. Face it, her being there only serves the purpose to make the wham episode even a thing, as she can verify that Zack was doing all the things Cloud was doing. So yeah, you can still kill her off and make the Tifa you see not be Tifa, and not actually create a plot hole because of how many red herrings there are for this whole dumb revelation.

Except the Ultimania Omega ultimately confirms that the way the game explains it is true. Yes, Cloud does remember things Tifa does not know but a) is it within Sephiroth's power to make people believe whatever he wants, he can even create illusions that you can literally feel and b) plotholes are perfectly normal. Also I do not know what it always is with Final Fantasy fans taking just one scene to explain their point or ignore what authors wanted just so they can say otherwise, et cetera, when multiple scenes actually confirm it. Forsaken Lover, no matter how often we disagree, did it right. He explained how JENOVA eradicated the Cetra and the moment when and how Cloud took Tifa's memories. Cloud called himself the master of his own illusionary world and that because he himself started all that - not on purpose once he met his childhood friend after a long time. Not taking the abilities that are even explained for exactly those scenes and everything else just because the first time Sephiroth mentioned it was for a half-truth (not even a lie, but a half-truth as, while Cloud was very well existing before, he actually became a Sephiroth clone nonetheless as clones in FFVII have more meanings) is really not helpful and about as great as people coming into other threads to explain why character names and author intentions and all and everything released from Square is meaningsless just because it is not good for his own argument. This is getting ridiculous to the point that you might as well say "oh, we better believe nothing" ultimately rendering playing a game useless. It is a perfect confabulation that Sephiroth was able to use. "Look at that folder. What is in there? Info A? Ah, away with you. Info B? Good one. Info C? Fine. Info D? Not necessary." and Cloud this way had a source of information he could use to make up his story instead of just randomly taking things out of nowhere. In the end the entire "Tifa was not there" thing would fall apart once I ask "how would they even know of how to use Cloud's confabulation and the JENOVA cells that did it?" as the entire story would need to be completely rewritten.

Midgar Mist
03-28-2016, 02:15 PM
I think they got it right with Aeris dying. I was pretty happy with it.

If someone else *had* to die, I'd have made it Vincent, probably. He's like a constant downer.

You would be on a constant downer too if you'd been rejected by the woman you love then shot and experimented on by her husband hence failing to stop the birth of pure evil. He's cursed and he's earnt it.

Whereas Aerith is a constant cheery sort so...she shouldn't die.

Caith Sith (if its possible to kill him without killing Reeve)

Tifa

Barrett

They are acceptable choices. As for Yuffie, I aint steppin' on that landmine....no sir