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Midgar Mist
03-23-2016, 04:43 AM
I'm expecting a divided opinion on this one, but please hear me out.

I present my evidence:

- Yukiko pushes Kanji into the river for having a nosebleed
-They have no sympathy for the boys having to eat their poorly cooked food
-Chie raids Yoskue's account to buy clothes for Teddie and isn't even sorry (I think Yosuke is the better judge of whether he wants a motorbike or not)
-When the boys turn up at the hot springs they throw baskets at them. Afterwards they realise it was actually the boy's turn to use it but don't apololgise.

As a female I kind of get it but, why be mean?

Discuss

Wolf Kanno
03-23-2016, 08:46 AM
- Yukiko pushes Kanji into the river for having a nosebleed

To be fair to Yukiko, nosebleeds in anime tend to signify sexual thoughts and is close to the equivalent of having an erestion so she's kind of justified here.


-They have no sympathy for the boys having to eat their poorly cooked food

It's been ages since I've played, but didn't Yosuke basically rope the girls into cooking duty for his own misguided reasons? I think they were more upset that he was pretty blunt about how awful the food was, and considering Japan is a country based around politeness, it may have come off a bit more insulting.


-Chie raids Yoskue's account to buy clothes for Teddie and isn't even sorry (I think Yosuke is the better judge of whether he wants a motorbike or not)

I've got nothing on this one. Yosuke is the team buttmonkey though, much like Junpei was in the first one.


-When the boys turn up at the hot springs they throw baskets at them. Afterwards they realise it was actually the boy's turn to use it but don't apololgise.

This was also kind of mean spirited but the whole thing is so embarrassing that I figure everyone involved wanted to keep at a "never speak of it again" kind of moment, similar to the Hot Spring episode in P3, which this served as a gender reversal of.

Fynn
03-23-2016, 09:13 AM
To be fair, Yosuke is a sexist twat, so he kinda had it coming

EDIT: Wow, didn't expect I'd be able to say that

Midgar Mist
03-23-2016, 09:59 AM
I know a bit more about japan's culture now so thanks Kanno. Still those ideas are a little alien to me. This is the most japanese centric game I've played though. As far as I remember the girls make their own decision to cook.

Yosuke does deserve some of what he gets yeah. There is actually a point where he's homophobic with Kanji (I hate that whollllle camping trip) But Yu (considering you can choose him to be nice) doesn't deserve this. I suppose he's more Zen than me though.

Fynn
03-23-2016, 10:32 AM
I think he just gets caught in the crossfire most of the time

Mr. Carnelian
03-24-2016, 02:01 AM
On another note, have you noticed that Rise is ALWAYS rude or mean to Kanji? I can't think of a single time she says something nice to him. It's not just that she doesn't get on with him, she's actively rude to him at every turn, for no apparent reason. At least, not one that I can remember.

Midgar Mist
03-24-2016, 03:15 AM
Rise is silly. Her silly personality makes her look unattractive whereas Yukiko is mostly quite kind and sweet (and gorgeous)

Wolf Kanno
03-24-2016, 05:00 AM
On another note, have you noticed that Rise is ALWAYS rude or mean to Kanji? I can't think of a single time she says something nice to him. It's not just that she doesn't get on with him, she's actively rude to him at every turn, for no apparent reason. At least, not one that I can remember.

Rise is pretty mean to all of the guys that are not the MC. She mostly bullies Kanji becaue they're the same grade, since social norms would probably prevent her from really sticking it to Yosuke, though Chie, Yukiko and life in general have it out for him.

Fynn
03-24-2016, 08:32 AM
I always saw that as playful jabs. These guys are all extremely close, considering that they've seen each other at their worst, and Rise has proven to be very kind in cases when it's time to get serious.

I actually really like Rise. She's one of my favorite characters, along with Kanji

Pumpkin
03-24-2016, 01:42 PM
I did think that a few times, yes. There was enough casual violence that it made me uncomfortable.

The worst thing for me was creeper teacher played for laughs though. It's not funny.

Bright Shield
03-24-2016, 04:41 PM
To be fair, Yosuke is a sexist twat, so he kinda had it coming

Yeah, let's go around robbing every sexist. Fight the power!!! >_>

Fynn
03-24-2016, 04:51 PM
Well, that was clearly played for laughs, and of course no one says stealing from anyone is good. I just meant that Yosuke is a dick a lot of the times, so it's pretty satisfying seeing him be the butt monkey

Bright Shield
03-24-2016, 05:13 PM
Well, that was clearly played for laughs, and of course no one says stealing from anyone is good. I just meant that Yosuke is a dick a lot of the times, so it's pretty satisfying seeing him be the butt monkey

Yosuke's dickery is also played for laughs, and he gets way more abuse than he gives out.

Fynn
03-24-2016, 05:17 PM
The jury's still out on that one. I can't help but smile every time he get his hit in the crotch, just because he refuses to learn on every occasion :monster:

Bright Shield
03-24-2016, 05:19 PM
I'd rather see someone smack up Chie personally. First time she hit me in the crotch, she'd be through a wall.

Fynn
03-24-2016, 05:21 PM
Doubt you'd get that chance, considering how nimble she is ;)

Bright Shield
03-24-2016, 05:24 PM
Maybe, but there are ways to make her pay. :)

Pumpkin
03-24-2016, 05:30 PM
I think saying anyone deserve some sort of physical violence against them for being a tard is stupid in general, to be honest. I get it's a game and whatever so once in a while doesn't bother me, but seeing friends beat up on each other over stupid crap like being a teenager is just

Not amusing to me.

Bright Shield
03-24-2016, 07:01 PM
Agreed Pumpkin.

Comic relief is fine and all, but I just don't find "you think I'm sexy, so I'm gonna push you off this cliff" to be all that funny.

Fynn
03-24-2016, 07:16 PM
It's not that.

The hiimdaisy comic summed it up the best

http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o509/Paplyk/Mobile%20Uploads/image_25.jpeg

So it's not "you're sexy, take a compliment", it's "you're girls, you owe me everything"

Formalhaut
03-24-2016, 08:00 PM
Yosuke pretty much deserved everything he gets, really. I do think Kanji gets the short straw in the group, though. He's constantly mocked for being slow on the uptake, Rise makes it her hobby to belittle him whenever, and no-one particularly stands up for him whenever the subject of his ambiguous sexuality turns up.

I wish there was more opportunities for the MC to tell Yosuke to back off. Or even if not your MC, for Yosuke to realise that, actually, he said some pretty hurtful stuff to Kanji. I feel like the game is missing that scene.

Pumpkin
03-24-2016, 08:28 PM
To me it still doesn't justify violence. I've had assholish views, most people have, it's part of growing up and forming your own opinions and developing as a person. Being like "Dude, not cool, stop." Or setting boundaries as to what is or is not acceptable is a great thing to do. Responding with violence is not funny and not deserved and not even effective at deterring behaviour, especially during the teenage years.

What if the genders were reversed and it was Yosukina (hehe) making comments to the men about not being manly enough because they can't hammer up drywall and don't earn enough money or whatever stupid stereotype so the guys just decked her. It would be as seriously upsetting as it should be or, at the very least, not funny. And yes, men are stronger and have a much longer history of abuse which is why it's looked at more seriously, but marginalizing victims of abuse, regardless of gender, is sickening and maddening and it frustrates me to no end. As a person who was in an abusive relationship and who has met many people of both genders who were in abusive relationships and volunteered with them, it's not funny and it's not deserved.

Bright Shield
03-24-2016, 09:15 PM
So it's not "you're sexy, take a compliment", it's "you're girls, you owe me everything"

That's a logical fallacy, since you are comparing an exaggerated spoof comic strip, to in game behavior.

It's also incorrect since the girls also pushed the MC and Kanji off the cliff. Yosuke says something like "they are going to turn into some fine looking women soon". MC can either say yes or no. Either way it's time to get shoved off a cliff. Kanji literally does nothing. Even if you equate a nosebleed to an erection, he still didn't do or say anything.



Yosuke pretty much deserved everything he gets, really.

You can't justify robbing him.

Or how about this?

Yosuke: Sorry, I broke your DVD. I'll buy you a new one.

Chie: TRIAL OF DA DRAGON!!!

*kicks Yosuke in the nuts*


Yeah, he totally deserved that... >_>

As Pumpkin said, you guys wouldn't be laughing if the situation was reversed.

Although in this case, I wouldn't mind if they let Yosuke slap Chie around a bit. Since she deserves it. Yukiko sometimes too.

Pumpkin
03-24-2016, 09:18 PM
Yeah I uh would mind if they did that. People shouldn't be beating each other for stupid reasons.

Also erections and/or nosebleeds are involuntary bodily functions, ESPECIALLY in the teenage years, so hitting someone for that is very much not acceptable.

Fynn
03-24-2016, 09:44 PM
No, it is not a logical fallacy because the comic just serves to illustrates a general attitude Yosuke has throughout the game in an exaggerated fashion. Did the scene go over like that? Of course not. But Yosuke makes constant remarks like that, though less exaggerated, and is continuously arrogant about it throughout the game

And now here's where you lose me, man, because you think I condone violence against people for being shitty, while I am not. Were it happening in real life, of course I wouldn't condone it. But this is fiction. And I respect how personal baggage can make you find that not funny, but this is fiction. Yosuke is purposefully written to be kind of a dick so we feel less sorry about his slapstick damage (which is inflicted by himself through his own clumsiness even more often than by the girls). Trying to reach for reasons to hate the girls of P4 and punch them in the face just because they're written like that to reinforce a comedic role is kinda toxic, because this is not real life. And yes, there is a double standard which exists due to various other standards that have been put in society.

tl;dr Of course violence is wrong IRL, but in P4 it's written as funny because Yosuke is written to be a sick so that we feel he deserves it. Typical trope. Like it or not, this is not a reason to start defending sexist behaviors or starting a witch hunt against female characters that don't want to put up with this sexism

DMKA
03-25-2016, 01:06 AM
Man do I miss the days when you could talk about a game without all the Tumblr-grade social justice crap coming into it.

Bright Shield
03-25-2016, 01:29 AM
No, it is not a logical fallacy because the comic just serves to illustrates a general attitude Yosuke has throughout the game in an exaggerated fashion.

It is a highly exaggerated spoof. The purpose is to poke fun at P4, and is thus highly inaccurate.

For example, Does Dojima want to have an incestuous relationship with the MC in P4? No, but he seems to want that in the comic. Is he constantly slacking off, and going to strip joints? No, but he does in the comic.

Using the comic as proof is a fallacy, since not only is it not official material, but it wasn't even trying to be accurate.




And now here's where you lose me, man, because you think I condone violence against people for being troutty, while I am not. Were it happening in real life, of course I wouldn't condone it. But this is fiction. And I respect how personal baggage can make you find that not funny, but this is fiction.

I wasn't comparing the situation to real life. I was calling out the crazy amounts of author bias towards the female cast.




Typical trope. Like it or not, this is not a reason to start defending sexist behaviors or starting a witch hunt against female characters that don't want to put up with this sexism

They don't put up with anything. Those horribly written stereotypes, always get their way because of author bias.

Not to mention, that I can flip that around at you. Yosuke being sexist is no reason to start defending violent behaviors. If both were portrayed equally, it would be less annoying, but it isn't. The girls are portrayed as saints, while Yosuke is relegated to asshat every time.

Dragonball handles this whole thing way better, since both sides win once in a while. It's not a constant bash on one sex.

Here's an example of the guy winning.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=TqvGPn2ThDo

P4 needed a scene like that to balance out all the abuse the guys take.

Midgar Mist
03-25-2016, 06:04 PM
I'd rather see someone smack up Chie personally. First time she hit me in the crotch, she'd be through a wall.

Yeah I don't really like her. She hits Yosuke for scratching her DVD. Bad mouthing food is considered inpolite in japan but hitting someone for scratching a disc is fine? If Yosuke had hit her for something like this he would be seen as out of line. Even though Yosuke is an idiot, I feel he doesn't deserve the level of bad treatment he gets. He already fancied a dead girl who hated him, has to put up with lazy employees who get at him, just cos he's the managers son. I have some sympathy for him. Yukiko and Naoto are the nicer ones, but Rise and Chie are mean.

Mirage
03-25-2016, 07:47 PM
- Yukiko pushes Kanji into the river for having a nosebleed

To be fair to Yukiko, nosebleeds in anime tend to signify sexual thoughts and is close to the equivalent of having an erestion so she's kind of justified here.

Everyone knows that, but since when was it fine to assault people for having uncontrollable natural reactions?

gau
05-06-2016, 04:40 PM
To be fair to all of them they're all 16 years old at the time.

Mirage
05-06-2016, 09:11 PM
Why does that matter? It's fine to kick people off a cliff because they have an erection if they're all 16, but not if they're all 18? I don't know about japan, but even if i was 15, that sort of behavior would get me a cozy little prison cell to sit in for some months at least. That's assuming I didn't accidentally cause their necks to break.

You don't see the guys in the game physically assaulting the girls, even though they're also just 16.

Fynn
05-06-2016, 09:19 PM
I assume slapstick humor hasn't reached Sweden yet?

Mirage
05-06-2016, 09:32 PM
I dunno, you'll have to ask them.

I guess the answer to the question in the OP is simply "no because everything is jokez lols" and that's end of that.

Fynn
05-06-2016, 09:33 PM
Oh sorry, were you Estonian or something? I always get you guys mixed up. I've painted so many wall up north, it's all a blur

Mirage
05-06-2016, 09:36 PM
Didn't know hungarians painted walls up here. Isn't it a bit too expensive to travel that far?

Fynn
05-06-2016, 09:38 PM
Nah, we take those buses from Mexico with all the chickens and goats you always see in movies. They're basically free

Mirage
05-06-2016, 09:43 PM
In either case, even if something is meant as a joke for the player/reader/viewer/whatever, that doesn't really change what the character did, or what kind of person they are. Rick isn't any less of a complete asshole towards morty just because the insults (and worse) he throws at him are jokes either. Roberto (from futurama) isn't any less of a complete murderous psycho even if his actions are also meant to make us laugh. Chie isn't any less of a trout because her kicks in Yosuke's face are meant to be funny to the player.

Fynn
05-06-2016, 09:45 PM
The context changes the interpretation, because in this world, comedic abuse is rampant, and Chie isn't any less of a dick than Dojima or whoever else is routinely bonking anyone on the head. Becayse it happens often, in a harmless fashion, for humor.

Mirage
05-06-2016, 10:00 PM
comedic abuse is rampant in rick and morty too! Rick is still a complete Gunt.

Fynn
05-06-2016, 10:02 PM
While Chie is a complex person whose violence against Yosuke is not her single defining trait

Mirage
05-06-2016, 11:05 PM
come on she's not that complex. almost no one in p4 is complex

Fynn
05-06-2016, 11:06 PM
Rise is

Mirage
05-06-2016, 11:19 PM
i said almost :p

Formalhaut
05-06-2016, 11:47 PM
I'd say they're complex. Rise has the more interesting social link (Chie's basically devolves to - I've got to protect my friends no matter what! I'm not even sure what happens in Yosuke's one. A fight scene?) but I find her the least likeable. She just has streaks of this bratty 'queen bee' personality that I am not a fan of.

Don't get me wrong, I like all the characters. But I do cringe everytime Rise digs at Kanji, both in story and even in battle call-outs.

gau
05-07-2016, 12:08 AM
Why does that matter? It's fine to kick people off a cliff because they have an erection if they're all 16, but not if they're all 18? I don't know about japan, but even if i was 15, that sort of behavior would get me a cozy little prison cell to sit in for some months at least. That's assuming I didn't accidentally cause their necks to break.

You don't see the guys in the game physically assaulting the girls, even though they're also just 16.

No, I don't think it is fine. I just think that obviously they didn't think much about the consequence of their action, since they're 16 and probably still a bit awkward with the opposite gender in such situation. I'm not going to justify their action. It is wrong. But I don't think the characters put any thought about violence and gender role and all that internet-age stuff you guys talked about. (I'm not trying to sound old, I'm 22, but before I got internet access I never once questioned gender role, so calling it internet-age stuff isn't wrong if you look at it from my perspective.)

Of course if Kanji got hurt Yukiko would get into jail. But, he didn't, why? Because it's the typical anime slapstick scene. Probably you're going to say "Oh yeah you're pulling it's just fiction card again." But here's the fun part: I think the whole camp scene was intentionally made to be a disturbing take on the usual comedic story arc. The usual visual and audio tropes that make such scene funny are... absent. That's probably why you guys take it so seriously, because the scene was intentionally made disturbing. Heck, I think me thinking that the character don't put any thought about their actions at all is intended by the developer. They want to criticize Japan's culture, I guess.

Jessweeee♪
05-11-2016, 03:13 AM
They're all kind of dicks to each other, yeah. It ain't just the girls being awful to the guys though.


I do think Kanji gets the short straw in the group, though. He's constantly mocked for being slow on the uptake, Rise makes it her hobby to belittle him whenever, and no-one particularly stands up for him whenever the subject of his ambiguous sexuality turns up.

I wish there was more opportunities for the MC to tell Yosuke to back off. Or even if not your MC, for Yosuke to realise that, actually, he said some pretty hurtful stuff to Kanji. I feel like the game is missing that scene.

yeah that tent scene on the camping trip I was like ugh yosuke no where's the "you ass nugget be nice to kanji" button
kanji is the best :(