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View Full Version : Opinions on Zack Fair (probable SPOILERS)



Midgar Mist
04-22-2016, 01:02 AM
So.....taking the compilation as a whole....what are your opinions on Zack?

In the ones I've played and seen, I feel like he couldve had a stronger presence in those flashbacks.

Forsaken Lover
04-22-2016, 01:49 AM
He's dead.

That's my opinion of him.

People who say he was a better hero/character than Cloud probably don't remember FFVII that well.

theundeadhero
04-22-2016, 02:53 AM
FFVII is a game that started characters as stereotypical RPG tropes, and then broke them as their characters evolved. Cloud started as the silent, strong, couldn't-care-less badass and ended as the dweeby guy who comes to term with his flaws and wants to mosey on down to the last boss. Zack is the stereotype that Cloud began as, basically... boring.

Saber
04-22-2016, 06:52 AM
Greater hero? Cloud, cause he saved the world. Zack, mainly saved Clouds life making him the hero he dreamed to be.

My opinion on him when I first played VII was I wished there was a way to recruit Zack. I even tried to take Barret and Tifa down to fight an infinite amount of shinra troops in a subway in hopes Zack would show up. However he was dead. He was also defined in VII as the true Solder of the compilation.

During Crisis Core I found his character pretty intact. Sometimes he had a umbrella moment where the umbrella is actually stronger then the buster sword. Though he did do a lot of importance he still falls as the guy that died saving cloud.

I liked him.

maybee
04-22-2016, 10:23 AM
One of the most overrated video game characters in history. I mean, he's okay- but he's also a playboy which is extremely sketchy, didn't write back to Aerith when he had the opportunity, and is a massive Shonen Hero clone.


FFVII is a game that started characters as stereotypical RPG tropes, and then broke them as their characters evolved. Cloud started as the silent, strong, couldn't-care-less badass and ended as the dweeby guy who comes to term with his flaws and wants to mosey on down to the last boss. Zack is the stereotype that Cloud began as, basically... boring.

^ Everything about this.

Sephiroth
04-22-2016, 01:00 PM
Whenever you see Zack you see he is a character that is made as symapthetic. He is made to be the hero guy and it is incredible how different he is from Cloud. Cloud's own original characteristics even during his confabulation still made him so different from Zack that the false memories still did not even change him enough to be even close to him as a character. And that is a good thing, I guess. It shows how similiar things can affect someone totally different if they are just different enough in the first place. Of course that can also happen to similiar people but that is not the case here.

And yes, I like Zack very much. At times I think his death scene is sadder than Aerith's.

Night Fury
04-22-2016, 01:48 PM
I really like Zack Fair, a lot. I don't know why. His life was pretty unfair hehe.

Shiva95
04-22-2016, 01:51 PM
Zack is one of my favorite FF characters. He's very nice, funny, strong and courageous. His death really breaks my heart everytime. And his relationship with Aerith is also very cute and tragic and the same time.

Midgar Mist
04-22-2016, 03:38 PM
His death scene is only triggered in the game if you take Cloud back to Nibelheim later on. Some people at the time couldve been forgiven for not knowing he was dead. And yes, his death is sad. Aerith's is shocking, but his is just plain sad.

Slothy
04-22-2016, 05:28 PM
In FFVII itself Zack has no character really aside from being some guy Aeris apparently dated and the guy who saves Cloud. There's really nothing to him other than that. I could see feeling some sadness in that sense since he's a character who's most important role is having his life unintentionally usurped by someone else when he dies but honestly we never know him well enough for me to care beyond simply acknowledging that this guy has supremely bad luck in the game.

As for the rest of the compilation, well... he's not necessarily bad in Crisis Core, but there's nothing that really made him stand out to me. He's a bland character in a game filled with so many bad characters, poor writing, and questionable retcons that it's genuinely hard to give a shit for me. The entire Compilation is that way though.

DMKA
04-23-2016, 12:31 AM
He's a pretty fair character.

Bright Shield
04-24-2016, 08:43 PM
Ah, ret-con man himself. Seriously, many god awful ret-cons happened thanks to this guy. Horribly written character.

"Hero, hero, hero! Honor! Dreams! SOLDIER pride! Now let's all do squats at random times because I'm a hyper active idiot!"

Dude is annoying as all hell. The only thing worse than him is his ret-conned death. Zack was killed by two random Shinra grunts with machine guns. He certainly did NOT die fighting a damn army. This isn't DBZ. It seems the horrible writers at Square can't seem to remember that though.

Midgar Mist
04-25-2016, 08:49 AM
He couldve been weakened by all that experimentation done on him and Cloud for the last 5 years. But....if he is a member of SOLDIER doesn't he have Jenova within him anyway? That is after all how one becomes part of SOLDIER. So....why is it that Sephiroth and Lucrecia cling to life due to their Jenova cells but Zack can die without resistance? Plus there's other NPCs who say they were in SOLDIER and I don't really get how they aren't being manipulated like the clones.

Sephiroth
04-25-2016, 12:54 PM
He couldve been weakened by all that experimentation done on him and Cloud for the last 5 years. But....if he is a member of SOLDIER doesn't he have Jenova within him anyway? That is after all how one becomes part of SOLDIER. So....why is it that Sephiroth and Lucrecia cling to life due to their Jenova cells but Zack can die without resistance? Plus there's other NPCs who say they were in SOLDIER and I don't really get how they aren't being manipulated like the clones.


Especially because of his SOLDIER operations he is already immune to such things. Furthermore the "SOLDIERs in general have JENOVA cells" was a bit ignored in the Compilation, especially for Dirge of Cerberus, making it possible for Weiss' body, the body of a former SOLDIER to function as a pure and not corrupt body of Omega, until Nero corrupted the body.

And the ex SOLDIER that we see in FFVII are already manipulated. We can see the seller in Junon talking about his recent feeling that he has to wear a black cape, et cetera. The Reunion call that Sephiroth starts echoes through.

Fynn
04-25-2016, 01:21 PM
I'm pretty cool with him. His personality is also one of those things that the compilation did right - instead of completely rewriting him to fit whatever goal they had in mind, they worked in the little bits of him that we saw in the original game and just expanded upon them so that his portrayal in FFVII is still relevant (which can't be said for things like Genesis, Angeal, that other doctor dude I can't remember the name of, the whole goddess thing and whatever the hell they did to LOVELESS).

Midgar Mist
04-25-2016, 05:49 PM
He couldve been weakened by all that experimentation done on him and Cloud for the last 5 years. But....if he is a member of SOLDIER doesn't he have Jenova within him anyway? That is after all how one becomes part of SOLDIER. So....why is it that Sephiroth and Lucrecia cling to life due to their Jenova cells but Zack can die without resistance? Plus there's other NPCs who say they were in SOLDIER and I don't really get how they aren't being manipulated like the clones.

Especially because of his SOLDIER operations he is already immune to such things. Furthermore the "SOLDIERs in general have JENOVA cells" was a bit ignored in the Compilation, especially for Dirge of Cerberus, making it possible for Weiss' body, the body of a former SOLDIER to function as a pure and not corrupt body of Omega, until Nero corrupted the body.

And the ex SOLDIER that we see in FFVII are already manipulated. We can see the seller in Junon talking about his recent feeling that he has to wear a black cape, et cetera. The Reunion call that Sephiroth starts echoes through.

The one I dont get is Johnny who is somehow meant to be Cloud and Tifa's childhood friend, and he's weird and doesnt even work as a comedy sideline. He doesn't seem to be affected by any of the JENOVA stuff. He could have a thread on his own but....he's not important enough. Zack is a little more integral to the plot.

Del Murder
04-25-2016, 06:32 PM
If Crisis Core did anything, it made Zack a very likable and sympathetic character and I was truly sad to see him eventually meet his fate at the end of it. I liked him better than Cloud. Did Zack save the world like Cloud did? No, but he was tons more charming and that counts for something.

Sephiroth
04-25-2016, 08:26 PM
The one I dont get is Johnny who is somehow meant to be Cloud and Tifa's childhood friend, and he's weird and doesnt even work as a comedy sideline. He doesn't seem to be affected by any of the JENOVA stuff. He could have a thread on his own but....he's not important enough. Zack is a little more integral to the plot.

There is a simple reason for that. Johnny is no SOLDIER. The Western version mistranslated him recognizing Cloud as former SOLDIER as him hinting he knows Cloud from SOLDIER. It would have ultimately ended up in a plothole anyway. Johnny is also no childhood friend, by the way. He is just a guy who is hot for Tifa and later gets his own girlfriend.

Midgar Mist
04-25-2016, 10:41 PM
Wow they really messed up the translation there.

Fynn
04-26-2016, 02:52 PM
Who the hell is Johnny

Midgar Mist
04-26-2016, 09:56 PM
Wow....I really am an uber-geek with the story of this game.

He's a character you can talk to the first time you visit Sector 7, he's also one of the dodgy types hanging outside the Honeybee Inn. You also see him standing outside a bathroom in Costa Del Sol where his friend is drunk in a toilet.

maybee
04-27-2016, 07:45 AM
Who the hell is Johnny

Tifa's friend !

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/c/cc/Johnny-ffvii-field.png/revision/latest?cb=20120103204741


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LAPB9ipMaFI/hqdefault.jpg


http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g91/Yangwastaken/ff7/johnnydont.png

Laddy
04-27-2016, 08:57 PM
By fleshing out Zack so much I think makes Cloud a weaker character. We're supposed to have a pretty vague idea of who Zack was and why Cloud idolized him so much and to have the Compilation be like "Oh no Zack was really THIS amazing and also was involved with all this stuff and had more to do with the plot" kind of drifts the focus of the story of Cloud saving the world whilst forming his own identity into something more jumbled and convoluted.

Zack is supposed to be a concept first and a character second. To flesh him out as he did makes Cloud actually less interesting and engaging as a character as a result since almost all of his actions are compared to Zack's which is just bullshit from a storytelling perspective.

Laddy
04-27-2016, 09:09 PM
He's dead.

That's my opinion of him.

People who say he was a better hero/character than Cloud probably don't remember FFVII that well.


FFVII is a game that started characters as stereotypical RPG tropes, and then broke them as their characters evolved. Cloud started as the silent, strong, couldn't-care-less badass and ended as the dweeby guy who comes to term with his flaws and wants to mosey on down to the last boss. Zack is the stereotype that Cloud began as, basically... boring.

By focusing on Zack beyond his role as "Cloud's buddy whom he idolizes" all of Cloud's traits and actions are compared to a guy whose role was supposed to a concept or idea first and character second.

Midgar Mist
04-27-2016, 10:41 PM
By fleshing out Zack so much I think makes Cloud a weaker character. We're supposed to have a pretty vague idea of who Zack was and why Cloud idolized him so much and to have the Compilation be like "Oh no Zack was really THIS amazing and also was involved with all this stuff and had more to do with the plot" kind of drifts the focus of the story of Cloud saving the world whilst forming his own identity into something more jumbled and convoluted.

Zack is supposed to be a concept first and a character second. To flesh him out as he did makes Cloud actually less interesting and engaging as a character as a result since almost all of his actions are compared to Zack's which is just bulltrout from a storytelling perspective.

That is a good point actually.

Ive never actually played Crisis Core so I'm unaware of what they try and do within it. I have however, read a synopsis of CC's plot. It sounds to me like they just took the backstory and turned it into a prequel when they couldve been doing another sequel.

Sephiroth
04-28-2016, 12:51 AM
I hate Zack as nobody who was in SOLDIER instead so it obviously did not have the same effect to everyone. He is a character to important as a plot aspect to not have given any life other than "he was a good friend to Cloud and then sadly was killed by Shinra". Zack being fleshed out is one of the best things for me. I just cannot stand getting videogames and then standing before a character and being all "why are you less alive than you could and should be?" I feel very similiar to Malon in Ocarina of Time who by far plays less of a role than Zack, yet somewhat is involved, just that Zack is way more relevant.

Crop
04-28-2016, 09:18 AM
The only issue I have with Zack, that has also been mentioned in this thread, is the ott death we got instead of the original pointless tragic death. I've never enjoyed the crazy defying gravity style fighting in any media as I think it's utterly ridiculous, but to take an already appropriate and touching death and turn it into one is just incredibly vexing.

Sephiroth
04-28-2016, 11:35 AM
The only issue I have with Zack, that has also been mentioned in this thread, is the ott death we got instead of the original pointless tragic death. I've never enjoyed the crazy defying gravity style fighting in any media as I think it's utterly ridiculous, but to take an already appropriate and touching death and turn it into one is just incredibly vexing.


To be fair, we did not know what happened before he arrived where he died, so it was possible to flesh this out more and modify some smaller details.

Fynn
04-28-2016, 11:48 AM
Well, there is such a thing prequels do which is answering questions no one ever asked.

maybee
04-28-2016, 12:28 PM
The only issue I have with Zack, that has also been mentioned in this thread, is the ott death we got instead of the original pointless tragic death. I've never enjoyed the crazy defying gravity style fighting in any media as I think it's utterly ridiculous, but to take an already appropriate and touching death and turn it into one is just incredibly vexing.

Zack's OG's death : Quick, ruthless, incredibly unfair, realistic, tragic.

Zack's Crisis Core death : Zack is able to say his final words before he dies, unrealistic to the extreme, Zack floats up to heaven, cheesy J- Pop music plays in the background. Angeal grabs him into heaven. Is cheesier than a bag of cheesy nachos.

Fynn
04-28-2016, 12:42 PM
True. But the DMW falling apart gradually was actually pretty good, I have to admit.

Sephiroth
04-28-2016, 08:19 PM
Well, there is such a thing prequels do which is answering questions no one ever asked.

What you think is not what everyone thinks.

Midgar Mist
04-29-2016, 12:23 AM
The only issue I have with Zack, that has also been mentioned in this thread, is the ott death we got instead of the original pointless tragic death. I've never enjoyed the crazy defying gravity style fighting in any media as I think it's utterly ridiculous, but to take an already appropriate and touching death and turn it into one is just incredibly vexing.

Zack's OG's death : Quick, ruthless, incredibly unfair, realistic, tragic.

Zack's Crisis Core death : Zack is able to say his final words before he dies, unrealistic to the extreme, Zack floats up to heaven, cheesy J- Pop music plays in the background. Angeal grabs him into heaven. Is cheesier than a bag of cheesy nachos.

Well, that seals the deal. I'm never playing Crisis Core.

Slothy
04-30-2016, 02:27 PM
I'd played crisis core but never actually bothered to beat it because holy crap that story's bad and after checking out the ending in YouTube right now... Jesus...

Exceeded my expectations for terrible somehow. I'll assume it's because I've simply forgotten just how bad the game was. The only decent part was the use of the DMW to try and tell the story through gameplay.

Ffamran mied Bunansa
04-30-2016, 07:28 PM
I like Zack. He is one of my favorite FF7 characters. Though I may be biased in sharing a first name with him. I also actually liked Crisis Core and prefered his death there.

Bright Shield
05-02-2016, 04:47 PM
Well, there is such a thing prequels do which is answering questions no one ever asked.

What you think is not what everyone thinks.

And as a fanboy of the garbage FFVII Compilation, and that piece of crap known as FFXIII; you speak for almost none of the fanbase. :)

Shauna
05-02-2016, 05:29 PM
No need to make things personal. Let's not continue that.

Mercer
05-02-2016, 09:10 PM
Zach was just an Agent of Soldier who was unfairly screwed over by Shinra. In the original game, it took 2 or 3 soldiers to gun him down, making his strengths as a character underestimated. In Crisis Core, it took almost half an army to kill him off which was contradictory to the FF7. All in all, he was a great character that filled in some gaps of back story in the original game and set the stage for Cloud.

Sephiroth
05-02-2016, 10:04 PM
Zach was just an Agent of Soldier who was unfairly screwed over by Shinra. In the original game, it took 2 or 3 soldiers to gun him down, making his strengths as a character underestimated. In Crisis Core, it took almost half an army to kill him off which was contradictory to the FF7. All in all, he was a great character that filled in some gaps of back story in the original game and set the stage for Cloud.

It is not contradictory when you fill a blank space that just was not shown. Only slight alterations.


Zack's a standard shounen protagonist, Cloud's much more interesting. Definitely on the "only original game is canon" philosophy side, I dislike the retcons in the later releases. They miss the tone of the original, often wildly.

It is not up to you to decide what is canonical though. And Shield, if you'd just have read what I said you would have known that you are wrong. "Blank space" and "slight alterations" says it all.

Bright Shield
05-04-2016, 05:04 PM
Zach was just an Agent of Soldier who was unfairly screwed over by Shinra. In the original game, it took 2 or 3 soldiers to gun him down, making his strengths as a character underestimated. In Crisis Core, it took almost half an army to kill him off which was contradictory to the FF7. All in all, he was a great character that filled in some gaps of back story in the original game and set the stage for Cloud.

It is not contradictory when you fill a blank space that just was not shown. Only slight alterations.
Careful. Your blind fanboy card is showing again.

It was completely contradictory to the original scene. There was no army, and Zack was dead before Cloud went over to him. There was no final goodbye.

Stop defending this crappy writing. The reactor scene is always contradicted to ridiculous levels as well.

Edit: And stop crying to me in private messages please. If you have something to say; say it here. I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.

Psychotic
05-04-2016, 06:43 PM
No, this stops now. If you want to debate the actual topic of the thread by all means have at it, but any more posts with personal attacks are going to end up deleted without any further warning.

Kalevala
05-04-2016, 07:27 PM
inb4 Zack is resurrected in the remake by a red... mage.

Galuf
05-04-2016, 07:44 PM
i think Zack is pretty cool.
i may be weird that i prefer the CC death over the original. since the original was boring.
but yeah he is a nice dude

Bright Shield
05-04-2016, 09:40 PM
No, this stops now. If you want to debate the actual topic of the thread by all means have at it, but any more posts with personal attacks are going to end up deleted without any further warning.

That's my bad. I was being unnecessarily hostile. Sorry everyone, especially Sephiroth. Insults are simply unacceptable.

Saber
05-04-2016, 10:40 PM
I prefer Crisis Cores death over the original. I actually like the original for the truck ride they got on the way to Midgar better too. In the end I take it all as a whole. Last Order and Crisis Core have Zack defeating many people on the way to saving Cloud. The fact was really nerve breaking if they decided to "save" Zack if you did a certain side quest was really bringing me down. However there is no way and the story is solid. Sure Genesis makes a bad appearance in the reactor. They just wanted to add him as more of a villain that way.

I still like Zack.

Wolf Kanno
05-05-2016, 04:34 AM
I like Zack, especially when it becomes clear many of the traits I liked about Cloud are actually from Zack's persona that Cloud apes, so his revelation in the story kind of killed some of my interest in Cloud as a character since he's a bit less assertive and second gueses himself a bit more after the revelation. I've also tended to enjoy Zack's character in the other media he has shown up in, being pretty optimistic and fun without the pitfalls of other characters ho go that route.

So yeah, I like him better than Cloud, he's actually one of the more interesting aspects of VII once the whole "Cloud isn't real" red herring gets cleared up.

68047

Shame this game sucked.

Fynn
05-05-2016, 09:52 AM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

maybee
05-05-2016, 03:53 PM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I don't know... Advent Children has it's flaws, but at least it doesn't have Genesis in it.

Fynn
05-05-2016, 04:07 PM
But it has Kadaj drinking Jenova's head which turns him into Sephiroth for some reason

Galuf
05-05-2016, 04:11 PM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

No. The best thing was "Marshmallow Bear Dating Sim"

Fynn
05-05-2016, 04:11 PM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

No. The best thing was "Marshmallow Bear Dating Sim"

wat

Pics. Please. I don't know what it is, but I know that I need it.

Galuf
05-05-2016, 05:36 PM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

No. The best thing was "Marshmallow Bear Dating Sim"

wat

Pics. Please. I don't know what it is, but I know that I need it.


Sorry, if i gave pics. Some Shadowey men would kidnap me forever.

Wolf Kanno
05-05-2016, 07:03 PM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

Fynn
05-05-2016, 08:33 PM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

Wolf Kanno
05-06-2016, 07:18 AM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete my friend, it was included on the disc. ;)

Fynn
05-06-2016, 10:14 AM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete my friend, it was included on the disc. ;)

It's still probably the best game to come out of the Compilation :gator:

Wolf Kanno
05-06-2016, 10:43 AM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete my friend, it was included on the disc. ;)

It's still probably the best game to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I've heard some decent things about Before Crisis...

Fynn
05-06-2016, 10:53 AM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete my friend, it was included on the disc. ;)

It's still probably the best game to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I've heard some decent things about Before Crisis...

It's still probably the best game to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

HAPPY NOW?? :stare:

I mean, I get your complaints, but the only reason why I think you're this harsh on Crisis Core (which is a very stupid game on its own) is because you haven't played Dirge of Cerberus, which is the single worst thing released under the Final Fantasy name.

Wolf Kanno
05-06-2016, 11:05 AM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete my friend, it was included on the disc. ;)

It's still probably the best game to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I've heard some decent things about Before Crisis...

It's still probably the best game to come out of the Compilation in the West :gator:

HAPPY NOW?? :stare:

I mean, I get your complaints, but the only reason why I think you're this harsh on Crisis Core (which is a very stupid game on its own) is because you haven't played Dirge of Cerberus, which is the single worst thing released under the Final Fantasy name.

The Final Fantasy VII Snowboarding game was also released as part of the compilation, so that is easily the best game to come out of the compilation. :smug:

Yeah, I didn't play Dirge of Cerberus, it didn't take much to look at the plot premise and gameplay to see that was going to be a turd. :wcanoe:

Fynn
05-06-2016, 11:07 AM
"Turd" is putting it lightly

Galuf
05-06-2016, 12:57 PM
DoC..... ugh...

WHY!!!?!!!??

maybee
05-06-2016, 04:44 PM
It's still probably the best thing to come out of the Compilation :gator:

I'd give that honor to Last Order, which had a bit more tasteful fight scenes and made Sephy look impressive instead of an idiot in the Nibelheiim Reactor.

But it ruins Cloud's character completely. Cloud was this man with low-self-esteem and low self worth and yet, he managed to defeat the mighty Sephiroth. Last Order just ruins Cloud.

Sephiroth lost any common sense when he went loopy insane.

Fynn
05-06-2016, 04:45 PM
But he still singlehandedly killed Sephiroth in the flashback in FFVII. That was kind of a confirmation that Cloud actually had some guts in him all along, and it wasn't all Zack.

maybee
05-06-2016, 04:52 PM
But he still singlehandedly killed Sephiroth in the flashback in FFVII. That was kind of a confirmation that Cloud actually had some guts in him all along, and it wasn't all Zack.

In the original game and in Crisis Core Cloud believes that he's basically a nobody, he's worthless- because he cannot come a Soldier and become the next hero and win over Tifa. But then Cloud and the player realize that Cloud was a strong and brave hero all along, he just needed to believe in himself more. Cloud manages to survive Sephiroth's deadly blade and uses all of his strength and inner-will to not let Sephiroth murder him in that place, and instead takes control of Sephiroth's sword and overcomes Sephiroth's power and instead tosses him into the Lifestream below.

It's amazing, and impressive and makes Cloud a wonderful and relatable main hero.

Last Order just destroys all that, throws it in the bin, for Sephiroth fanboy-ism.

Fynn
05-06-2016, 04:53 PM
What exactly happened in LO then?

maybee
05-06-2016, 05:03 PM
What exactly happened in LO then?

Sephiroth speaks to Jenova and Cloud stabs him in the back, injuring him- Cloud then rushes to Tifa to see if she's okay, Tifa and Cloud speak about their childhood promise. Sephiroth, holding Jenova's head stands there in front of Cloud. Cloud wielding the Buster Sword rushes towards Sephiroth, but before Cloud can attack him, Sephiroth cuts him right through with his sword; Cloud gasps in pain.

Instead of Cloud grabbing Sephiroth's sword, Cloud is easily tossed to the side like a rag doll. Cloud is then stabbed by Sephiroth again. Cloud then does grab Sephiroth's sword, BUT he's just tossed into the wall. Cloud with Sephiroth's sword still cut through him collapses to the ground.

Sephiroth smiles at Cloud and grabs Jenova's head and he jumps into the Lifestream himself.

Cloud watches him jump and cries slighty, holding his injury and finally blacks out.


- Original

Cloud comes in to witness a injured Tifa and Zack. Cloud grabs Zack's Buster Sword and comes running in and stabs Sephiroth while he's proudly standing in front of Jenova. Cloud calmly takes off his Shrina mask, and races towards Tifa.

Tifa who just bravely attempted to stop Sephiroth is now unable to speak, Cloud looks at her like this might be their last time together.

Sephiroth comes in, holding Jenova's head- Cloud watches him go by and Zack tells Cloud to go and stop Sephiroth. Zack tells Cloud to go and stop Sephiroth !

Cloud yells Sephiroth's name and runs towards him, but Sephiroth rams his blade straight through him. Sephiroth lifts up him up in the air, like he's a weakling, a nothing- but Cloud shakes his head and grabs Sephiroth's sword, much to Sephiroth's shock and horror and Sephiroth is tossed into the Lifestream- completely defeated by a young sixteen year old boy who didn't even make it into Solider.

Fynn
05-06-2016, 05:06 PM
Well that's dumb. Dumber than Crisis Core. #comeatmewolfcanoe

Karifean
05-06-2016, 05:47 PM
I mean, I get your complaints, but the only reason why I think you're this harsh on Crisis Core (which is a very stupid game on its own) is because you haven't played Dirge of Cerberus, which is the single worst thing released under the Final Fantasy name.

Final Fantasy: All The Bravest

Fynn
05-06-2016, 05:50 PM
Nope, still think DoC is worse :p

Galuf
05-06-2016, 06:01 PM
FF ATB was fun time waster that was free DoC was none of those

Wolf Kanno
05-06-2016, 08:54 PM
What exactly happened in LO then?

Sephiroth speaks to Jenova and Cloud stabs him in the back, injuring him- Cloud then rushes to Tifa to see if she's okay, Tifa and Cloud speak about their childhood promise. Sephiroth, holding Jenova's head stands there in front of Cloud. Cloud wielding the Buster Sword rushes towards Sephiroth, but before Cloud can attack him, Sephiroth cuts him right through with his sword; Cloud gasps in pain.

Instead of Cloud grabbing Sephiroth's sword, Cloud is easily tossed to the side like a rag doll. Cloud is then stabbed by Sephiroth again. Cloud then does grab Sephiroth's sword, BUT he's just tossed into the wall. Cloud with Sephiroth's sword still cut through him collapses to the ground.

Sephiroth smiles at Cloud and grabs Jenova's head and he jumps into the Lifestream himself.

Cloud watches him jump and cries slighty, holding his injury and finally blacks out.


You forget the part where Cloud scares the shit out of Sephiroth after grabbing his sword and pulling it through himself even more so he can get closer to Sephiroth like a damn badass only for Sephy to question if Cloud is even human.

Not to mention that Cloud beating Sephy in the original looks ridiculous and makes Sephy look like a moron. Cloud uses his body weight to seesaw his way back to the ground (with all physicist shaking their head at this moment) and lifts Sephiroth who for some reason refuses to let go of his sword and just stand there letting Cloud toss him into the reactor. It is the most visually awkward moment in the whole game.

I'd also point out the original shows that Cloud actually helped Sephiroth by mistake for throwing him in the reactor whereas LO doesn't.

Forsaken Lover
05-08-2016, 05:30 AM
No one is whining about Cecil and co. standing by petrified as Golbez's hand steals the crystal. That's infinitely more embarrassing than Cloud and Sephiroth.

I see no reason to be shocked when Sephiroth similarly stands frozen at an unfortunate moment. He's also probably not thinking too straight, what with being insane and also the horrible pain from Cloud's previous attack. And sheer dumb shock from what Cloud is doing as well.

As for "helping" Seophiroth, Cloud effectively killed Seophiroth for five years. It's not his fault Sephiroth had magic BS powers.

maybee
05-08-2016, 01:05 PM
No one is whining about Cecil and co. standing by petrified as Golbez's hand steals the crystal. That's infinitely more embarrassing than Cloud and Sephiroth.

I see no reason to be shocked when Sephiroth similarly stands frozen at an unfortunate moment. He's also probably not thinking too straight, what with being insane and also the horrible pain from Cloud's previous attack. And sheer dumb shock from what Cloud is doing as well.

As for "helping" Seophiroth, Cloud effectively killed Seophiroth for five years. It's not his fault Sephiroth had magic BS powers.

Yeah, Sephiroth is mostly likely in horrid shock about what's happening. Cloud is just some sixteen year old nobody who couldn't even make Solider. Cloud is a grunt that Shrina doesn't even think too much about, the other Shrina grunt who teams up in the Nibelheim mission is tossed aside without a thought when he goes missing. Cloud is just a nobody. Meanwhile this 'nothing' is destroying him, and has even outsmarted him.

Sephiroth is in complete shock about how on earth this army grunt is completely outsmarting him and not just simply dying to his sword like the others in Nibelheim. Heck, Zack attempted to stop Sephiroth and Zack got completely smurfed up by Sephiroth.

Sephiroth's response to this is ' eh, what the smurf ' ?

The fact that Cloud just managed to defeat the legendary hero Sephiroth is why he's such a amazing lead Final Fantasy hero, because Cloud believes that he's worthless- when in reality, he's better than he thinks, he just needs to believe in himself alot more. Cloud is strongly relatable. It's why Cloud is so beloved. It's not because he has a massive sword or does amazing motorbike stunts in Advent Children. It's because he feels human.


As for "helping" Seophiroth, Cloud effectively killed Seophiroth for five years. It's not his fault Sephiroth had magic BS powers.

Exactly ! Plus it was either to do that or die to Sephiroth's sword.

sinuosity
05-08-2016, 01:07 PM
Zack's a standard shounen protagonist, Cloud's much more interesting. Definitely on the "only original game is canon" philosophy side, I dislike the retcons in the later releases. They miss the tone of the original, often wildly.