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Forsaken Lover
08-05-2016, 11:48 PM
As I near the end of my third DA Origins run, I have spared Loghain for the first time.

Now, let's get something straight. I've always sympathized with Loghain. He did bad things but he clearly didn't enjoy doing bad things. He's no Howe. He took steps that were regrettable but which he thought were necessary. He accepts his death with good grace and it's heartbreaking in the epilogue where Queen Anora builds him a statue and she's the only one who ever visits it. The man was once the greatest hero in the land but he destroyed his own legacy.

That all being said...sparing Loghain? Hardest decision I've ever made in a video game. I'd sell a million more Connors to demons before I ever let him live again. Letting him live has made me hate the man so much and it's frankly bizarre. As I said, my lat two runs, I was very appreciative of his tragedy. But letting him live, it's almost like that tragedy was all sucked away and all I can see is the evil he's done.

I think it's because of what Alistair says. Everything Alistair said is true. This is the man who has done so many terrible things and you're letting him live. And in return ,Alistair leaves. I know some people don't like Al but, whatever your feelings about him, Alistair has been there since the start. He was there helping you fight off assassins that the bastard you just saved sent after you both. Sparing Loghain is almost as great a betrayal as when Loghain left Cailan to die.

It also doesn't help that I liked Cailan a lot. He wasn't half as stupid as everyone says he was. What's more, he was a good and caring man. If you are a City Elf or a Human Noble, he is visibly shocked and horrified when he hears of your plight and vows to do something about it when he gets back. Should be noted, Howe's hostile takeover of Highever was enabled by Loghain. Without knowing Cailan wasn't coming back alive, Howe's murder and treachery never could have succeeded. It wouldn't go unpunished, at any rate. Getting back to Cailan, I just did Return to Ostagar for the first time. Loghain, that asshole, says just throw Cailan's body to the wolves.

So yes... I just... I dunno. I tend to be very passionate about my characters and their companions. This is no exception. It's just so weird, going from being so understanding of Loghain to ranting and raving about how he doomed everyone and deserves death. (I didn't do that here but I did do it elsewhere where Loghain has a few defenders)

Pike
08-06-2016, 02:40 AM
Loghain is a great villain and I like him as a villain but honestly I can't really like him, and the main reason is:

Because he sits around and bitches about Orlais but then he sets up deals with Tevinter and lets them sell elves - Fereldan citizens - into slavery. Like, um? Slavery, really? And teaming up with the Vints, really? I know that there was that whole recent war with the Orlesians but come on. Tevinter is really no better.

Also if you let Loghain live then you lose Alistair and I love that idiot. You can pry him and his dumb haircut away from my cold dead hands. (Unless you harden him maybe??? I'm not 100% sure on the details.)

As for Arl Howe. Yeah he's a weasel and deserves to die. Killing him with my Cousland was a soul-purifying journey. Like beaming the light of Andraste and the Maker directly into my being. Blessed are those who stand before the wicked and corrupt and do not falter.

Pumpkin
08-06-2016, 03:35 AM
The main reason I killed him is because, like you said, Alistair had been there from the beginning, and it felt like it would be a big screw you to this dude who did so much for my character.

Mister Adequate
08-06-2016, 04:00 AM
Loghain had understandable motivations, but he was simply too mired in his hatred of Orlais (justifiable as that is) to see the big picture. Maybe he can be forgiven for thinking at first the Darkspawn incursion wasn't a true Blight, as the Grey Wardens refuse to tell people that they know for a fact when an Archdemon is awake. But he was naive in the extreme to think that Ferelden would fall in line behind him (only likely to be true if it IS a real Blight and everyone is sufficiently scared) even if he had killed Eamon successfully. Teagan was both capable of and willing to still oppose him, as we seen in the first Bannorn scene. Yes, Redcliffe was then crippled by the Desire Demon, but that had nothing to do with Loghain and he had no way of even guessing that might happen.

His choice of allies also shows that he was in denial either about his popularity, about the threats he faced, or both. His only major ally was Arl Howe, and though we're not clear on exactly how much Loghain knew, he clearly knew about at least some to most of Howe's ugly acts. But he had no room to even stop Howe, let alone ditch him, because he's pretty much Loghain's only major ally. But more than that the fact that he knows he needs a major ally who has funding and men shows that he is deeply concerned about the Darkspawn threat, even if he thinks Ferelden can win.

I'm not even sure how good Loghain is tactically. Pulling out when Ishal is lit is the right moment in principle but hey what if those Darkspawn manage to make trouble and stop the signal fire being lit? Oh huh-doyyy guess my army's standing here until we're surrounded and overrun! Supposedly-naive Cailan was the one who wanted to make sure a couple of Grey Wardens were on the task to ensure it got done. (Cailan was a little naive, but to be fair he had little reason to fear his father-in-law and dad's best friend).

But anyway, we'll allow that Loghain does have great tactical skill. He also has poor strategic skill and zero political acumen, and it doesn't really matter how good you are at winning battles if you don't know how to use that to win the war, or indeed the peace. Eamon, conversely, knew not just what to do but how to do it, which is partly why upon his recovery he has very little trouble bringing Ferelden together even though he is never said to have any particular skill at leading men. Yes, he needs the Grey Warden's help in that, but he's the one who makes the plans, the Warden is just the best person at enacting them.

Loghain is basically undone by his own weaknesses and fears, and he's actually one of the best tragic characters I can think of in videogames as a result. He's not under the sway of a witch or an evil chancellor or any kind of Dawkspawn bulltrout or anything like that. He's just a man who grew up in a brutal war for independence, won, and is now terrified all the blood he and his companions shed will prove to be in vain. I mean, if you have Alistair fight him at the Landsmeet, what Loghain says upon losing is "So, there is some of Maric in you after all. Good." The man's love for his country (and it's a fair love, Ferelden was under Orlesian occupation for nearly the entire Blessed Age) is powerful, it's his motivation - and it's his undoing.

Forsaken Lover
08-06-2016, 04:59 AM
Cailan knew who Alistair was, which is probably why he specifically ordered Alistair to what he thought would be a safe location far away from the battle. (there weren't supposed to be darkspawn or ogres there) If anything happened to him, then a member of his bloodline would survive to succeed him. And lucky for Ferelden that he did this, or else all the Wardens be dead and the country would be raped and destroyed long before the oh-so-evil Orlesians could send their own Wardens to take care of things.

rv0Hf0e6I3s

And Loghain would throw his body to the wolves. When only MORRIGAN agrees with you? You are wrong, flat-out.

Mr. Carnelian
08-06-2016, 10:10 AM
Plot twist: it's possible to keep Loghain alive, but NOT have Alistair leave (well, sort of)! So, you don't have to actually choose between them at all, you can have both. Alistair has to be "hardened" and you have to have set him up with Anora. Then, he's unhappy about you not killing Loghain, but he stays to become King instead of running off and ending up a lonely drunk. He's not in your party anymore, though.

Anywho, vis a vis sympathy for Loghain... He definitely goes WAAAAAY too far, but I think he was trying to do the right thing. THe road to hell is paved with good intentions, and all that. Cailan was a bit of a tit, and his dumb "lets charge the darkspawn with a big-arse army" plan was flawed from the start. I think Loghain probably made the right decision in withdrawing his troops: there was NO way that battle was going to end in a victory. Whether or not he'd always planned to betray Cailan and usurp him, well... There's enough ambiguity that you can interpret things that way, but I don't really buy it.

Pike
08-06-2016, 11:16 AM
When only MORRIGAN agrees with you? You are wrong, flat-out.

this is one of the truest lines I've ever seen spoken on this forum

Anyways, when you're at Ostagar (for the first time), and I can't remember the exact lines, but Cailan says something about how he hopes plans will work out and there's like this super dramatic closeup on Loghain's face and he's like "Yes, I hope they will :plotting: :mwahaha:" and tbh that's when I knew he was planning this the entire time :colbert:

He does genuinely believe he's doing the right thing, and I understand his hatred of Orlais (because honestly does anyone really like them?? I could write like seven paragraphs on why Orlais is terrible) but yeah, I'm 1000% convinced he left Cailan to die on purpose.

Spuuky
08-08-2016, 03:33 AM
Loghain must die. I find it implausible that he would not undermine the authority of the next king/queen and allow them to rule in a way contrary to his desires, even if he's officially stripped of all power. These things never go well in real history, he's basically guaranteed to show up with an army at some point to take power.

And his big treason move is one thing, but sending assassins after me, putting a bounty on my head, and doing everything in his power to see that I don't survive? No, sorry, unacceptable. My "real" DA playthrough was 100% a Korean movie vengeance quest.

Pike
08-08-2016, 11:15 AM
On the plus side sending assassins after you means you get Zevran, who is GREAT

Spuuky
08-08-2016, 06:32 PM
I doubt that Loghain was like "let's send this hot elf assassin and his crew there, because we know they'll fail their job and I just feel like they'd be good together."

Pike
08-08-2016, 07:52 PM
Pfft he totally was.

Forsaken Lover
08-09-2016, 03:45 PM
Pfft he totally was.

It was all part of Loghain's insidious genius. He figured Zevran would fail a frontal assault but he'd naturally be able to slip in the backdoor. He'd really be able to stick you good, then.

Pike
08-09-2016, 04:00 PM
but he'd naturally be able to slip in the backdoor. He'd really be able to stick you good, then.

:jokey: :jokey:

Bubba
08-09-2016, 04:20 PM
He figured Zevran would fail a frontal assault but he'd naturally be able to slip in the backdoor. He'd really be able to stick you good, then.

Any attempt at slipping in the back door and I'm immediately rebuffed. Always full frontal for me.

Forsaken Lover
08-09-2016, 04:39 PM
He figured Zevran would fail a frontal assault but he'd naturally be able to slip in the backdoor. He'd really be able to stick you good, then.

Any attempt at slipping in the back door and I'm immediately rebuffed. Always full frontal for me.

Not exactly an option if you're both men, though.

Or am I lost in innuendo here?

Bubba
08-09-2016, 04:59 PM
He figured Zevran would fail a frontal assault but he'd naturally be able to slip in the backdoor. He'd really be able to stick you good, then.

Any attempt at slipping in the back door and I'm immediately rebuffed. Always full frontal for me.

Not exactly an option if you're both men, though.

Or am I lost in innuendo here?

No idea what you mean. I thought we were talking about DA: Origins?

I have never played this game and yes... I am disgraceful

Pike
08-09-2016, 05:38 PM
He figured Zevran would fail a frontal assault but he'd naturally be able to slip in the backdoor. He'd really be able to stick you good, then.

Any attempt at slipping in the back door and I'm immediately rebuffed. Always full frontal for me.

Not exactly an option if you're both men, though.

Don't underestimate Zevran's ability to make ANYTHING work