FL Plays the Persona Series

[Forsaken Lover]

It's interesting you would say SMT's message is Humans Are The Real Monsters when Neutral (Humans Are The Bestest!) is clearly the preferred option for the series.

Secular Humanism, love your fellow man and beat the shit out of all demons, that is the message SMT really wants to convey. I totally disagree with that message though and am glad the game gives me options if I do disagree. But you still get the feeling going Law is kinda like blowing up the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 3. Sure you can do it but the developers don't want you to. They clearly have a preferred path built around what they think and that takes precedent over what you think.

[Fynn]

I'm not really sure about that, tbh. The reason we see Neutral as the best choice is mostly (well, excepting SMT IV, I guess) quite possibly cultural. When you look at the fanbase in the West, most people will say Neutral or Chaos (sometimes) are okay, but Law is pretty much looked down on because our values are generally more centered on individualism, however. Law, however, is more popular in Japan than here, even if it's not the most popular option, simply because the Japanese society places such a big emphasis on harmony and obedience, to the point that this ideal vision of a still world isn't exactly seen as evil.

I think the main point behind the entire series is that all of the presented ideologies have their fair points. Factions you end up joining/resisting are usually the most extreme forms of it, but there are just as many sympathetic chaos and law aligned characters in the series as there are neutral ones. And really, neutrality isn;t immune to it either - in SMT I the Neutral option is basically a Kill 'Em All scenario, with humanity being left directionless and lost in a broken world, while SMTIV: Apocalypse has the law and chaos endings as the premature bad endings, since the "main" multiple endings are various shades of neutrality. In the end, I just don't think the opinion of the creators is as clear-cut as we might think, since I'm pretty sure they really take a good look at the various aspects of these ideologies every time they make a new game, and I;m pretty sure their own views change and evolve overtime as well. Hell, even though YHVH is presented as the main evil in the earlier games, Kaneko himself has stated that that answer isn't exactly clear-cut.

And regarding Humans Being the Real Monsters - it is heavily implied throughout the series that demons exist as an extension of humanity, and everything about demons is born from humanity. If there were no humans, there would be no demons, and demons wouldn't have the traits they have if humanity didn't have them too. Except humanity is capable of changing and demons are static. Ergo, humans can actively work to be morally good but still often opt not to, while demons pretty much don't have a choice since we've indirectly already determined their nature. In a way, that kind of makes them like animals, where you can't really say a tiger is an amoral murderer because the tiger is simply incapable of having morals.

[Forsaken Lover]

Demons being the spawn of human thoughts or whatever is something I've heard about but given Strange Journey states they existed before humans did, I find that idea kinda suspect. Although each SMT game apart from 1 and 2 takes place in a different universe so maybe the rules are different.

And of course Nocturne was big on how the Demi-Fiend couldn't change anything or have a Reason of his own which doesn't really make sense. As I recall, SMT still goes with the fallen angel myth of Lucifer. He was with YHWH but then rebelled which of course means he changed.

I've noted this before but Persona isn't as different from SMT as one might think. In Persona's constant challenging of authority and insistence on individualism (taken up to 11 in P5), I see SMT Neutral. Neutral and Chaos have both been treated more fairly than Law ever has so far as I know. I can tell you that in Nocturne at least that True Demon (which is basically Chaos) has far more effort and thought put into it than any of the other routes.

[Fynn]

Law is treated very sympathetically in Devil Survivor, for example. Neutral being kind is really a recent thing, with SMT IV especially being blatant about it, since the game is longer on Neutral, implying that it's kind of the "true ending" to the game. Aside from Nocturne, I also heard the second Raidou game is kind of more sympathetic to chaos than law, but I can't really speak for it. The early games, though? I'd say they treat the alignments pretty equally.

I'm actually pretty hesitant on placing Persona/Devil Summoner games on an alignment scale, now that I really think about it, since the main point of alignments is that they're really only a reasonable reaction to an extreme situation, since it's obvious that in a regular functioning society everyone will default to Neutral since this is how you coexist in a stable society. Persona and the Devil Summoner games all take place in the same continuity where the apocalypse never happened, so I'd say that, even though there are certain call-backs and themes taken from the alignments (with Mark and Nanjo form P1 being basically your chaos and law companions but they're still good friends in the end), the situation is never really stressful on a deep enough, society-breaking level to make alignment choices a thing.

EDIT: Regarding those demons - I don't think the fact that it's stated in the game that the demons are older than humans is necessary confirmation that this is a thing, since the demons come from our mythologies, and according to those mythologies, these demons have set origins that often precede humans, so of course everyone is convinced that is the case. It's kidna like the rumors in P2 wherein a person wasn't really a spy in the past, for example, but then when that rumor spreads it turns out they were a spy all along - even though they really weren't logically speaking. And then let's consider the fact that the Expanse doesn't necessarily obey the same rules of time that we do, so theoretically, by that logic, a demon made up in a specific time frame could actually show up in the past through the Expanse. This is more of a wild guess, though. I like my first theory better.

[Fynn]

btw, I haven't played Apocalypse yet but I heard it actually makes this canon and gives the whole process of demons being defined by humans a name - Observation.

[Forsaken Lover]

Still haven't played the Survivor games. I might someday but ehhhh. I wanted to play the Raidou games but my PS3 died so oh well.

Also there are apocalypses at the end of the Persona games. P3 is pretty explicit with Nyx coming to end all life on Earth and I got the feeling the Fog in P4 was going to spread to the rest of the Earth. I can't remember for certain but I feel like that's stated somewhere.

But I see your overall point. The world is in a state of change and flux in SMT and you decide where the coin will land. That isn't really the case for Persona. You're mostly just making things right after someone screwed them up for a bit.

Interesting point about IVA, though. I really wish I could play those games but...bleh. Maybe Atlus will join Square and Namco and every other JRPG company and finally start porting trout to Steam.

Or maybe I'll just have to wait for SMT Switch and hope it's a big, important title.

[Wolf Kanno]

I can acknowledge the Baby Boomers have hurt the US without blaming "adults." As I said, everyone from Sae to Shido is lumped together. Sae is in her 20s I believe and Shido was 52 I think it was. They are not even close to the same generation yet " all" adults are trout on, and the adults themselves agree with this.

Sae is hardly a saint in P5, I mean she emotionally blackmails her sister into a life she picked out for her and her Palace showed that she completely lost touch with true justice and instead got warped into someone who was more concern with winning and keeping her career than actually seeking true justice. Considering her position and the amount of grief she gives your party, I feel it's safe to lump her in with Shido who is also using their influence for selfish gain. Her crimes are not as bad as his, but if the events of the game did not transpire, she could have eventually become as bad as him.

I think you're just getting too hung up on the language used, despite the fact the game makes it obvious the real issue is with the system. I mean never listen to Ryuji, it's like the one cardinal rule in the game. Besides, if the battle was simply against the "adults" then the party would have never moved past just changing the hearts of every adult that looked at them funny in real life. Instead they start moving towards bigger and bigger targets that wind up actually having a positive effect 4JuK1Yr35Io?t=6s.



Fair enough if that is your preference but Persona from 3 and onward has been about making cool anime friends. The plot is a secondary concern. That's probably why 4 is so much more popular than 3. 3 didn't give you nearly enough time with your buddies and instead focused a lot more on the plot. In games where your "bonds" and friendships are what ultimately save the world, I think showing those friendships should always be paramount.

I would agree that the heavier focus on the characters being buddy buddy is probably why it ended u being more popular than P3, but I would point out that P5's own surge of popularity despite having less focus on that aspect can also serve as a counterpoint to why it's not necessarily as much of a necessity to the franchise as believed.

To be honest, I disagree that the point of the series is "making anime friends", while it is a gameplay feature, I feel they often serve a larger narrative purpose. In P3, the point of the Social Link system ties in with the game's central themes of Memento Mori and what is the meaning of life if we're all going to die anyway?, that we should make the most of every day and that it's our bonds with others that give life meaning. So it serves a deeper narrative purpose. In P5, your confidants are exactly that, allies who also want to fight back against the system that screwed them and a partnership which frankly I felt really worked well with the whole outlaw mystique of the game. So here lies my issue with P4, what narrative purpose does the social links serve? The game's theme is facing yourself and searching for truth in a world where people believe in convenient lies. We could agree the theme is explored through the social links but it doesn't change the fact that the SL don't serve a greater narrative focus for the game in comparison to the game surrounding them. It's probably why the core cast often overshadows the other social links. I think it's something that has always bothered me about P4. In fact, I feel like P5 ended up correcting a lot of mistakes from P4.


Fun fact: I initially took "The Deal" because I couldn't careless about anybody or anything, probably because everyone did treat me like dirt so I saw no reason to care about any of them.

I didn't, but it had less to do with my companions, and more to do that taking it would have meant the ideal I was fighting for would have been for naught, and that brings me back to my point. That element of the plot wasn't about your bonds, it was about your end goal which is what the real focus of P5 was. Working to make the world a better place by changing the system. Taking the deal voids everything you had been doing up until that point.


I never did finish Innocent Sin but I don't see how it was particularly complicated with its evil principals and Nazis out of nowhere for no reason. (I mean from a writing perspective. There was absolutely no reason to make them Nazis) It all felt incredibly hokey and silly to me. Granted my memory of the game is not perfect and I'll never play it again because its gameplay is unforgivably terrible and probably the worst I've ever seen in a JRPG. But it felt like the game was going nowhere until the revelations about Maya and Jun. I certainly wasn't really interested in anything until then. So much smurfing padding. Plus a lot of important dialogue is to be found from randomly walking around and talking to people instead of proceeding with the plot. That irritated me.

I hear Eternal Punishment is better but bleh. It apparently has the same battle system so smurf that noise.

Fair enough if it wasn't your thing, that happens. As for EP, it works a lot better when you play IS. The games were originally one title but got split into two releases due to making deadlines. A major element of EP is the idea of Deja Vu and so you end up doing a lot of the same things you did in IS except it's all slightly off.

As for the wacky elements, the Nazis make sense due to many of the rumors in the game being based on real conspiracy theory nonsense. Hitler survived WWII and hid out across seas biding his time for a new war. Aliens are responsible for the pyramids and they'll come back to bring mankind into a new age. Even some Japanese urban legends get shout outs. In EP they keep this going but adult it up a bit with a NWO plot, people believing in some New Age health benefit, and even secret cabals that really run everything. It's a subtle but interesting twist. MegaTen, especially of the classic variety, is pretty kooky and weird in a hokey way, but I feel its part of its charm and it works as contrast for the darker elements the series usually brings up.

[Fynn]

I heard that Tadashi actually came up with the idea of making 2 into two games about halfway through writing Innocent Sin. Still, while many people use this claim to say that it was intended to only be Innocent Sin at the start (those are mostly people who didn't like EP's ending compared to IS's :p), pretty sure rewrites were made to the IS part to solidify the games as two halves of the same whole because there are way to many things in IS foreshadowing EP to not make it feel like this is intentional from a narrative standpoint and not just "hey let's just make two games and get twice as much cash!"

[Forsaken Lover]

So I'm replaying Persona 2: Innocent Sin. Been involved in so many Person arguments lately and it just kind of inspired me. Unlike P5 which I feel I fully understood and just saw zero appeal, P2 is a game whose appeal I think is there but I just need to make another attempt to find it. Without frequently wandering off at various points and leaving the game sit for months, and also armed with some foreknowledge of what will happen later in the game, maybe things will be more interesting.

Note: I wrote this periodically over the course of a week as I played through the game. If you don't want to read through a load of random thoughts that have been mildly edited by me, just know that my decision to give IS another go was a good one. I now consider it the second best Persona game after 4. But I'll mark my overall thoughts at the end. In the meantime, maybe you'll enjoy reading the random thoughts of someone on the Internet.

Also there are some questions I have about the plot that I need clarification on.

1. Evil Principals are bad and dumb P4 often gets blasted for being simplistic yet it's the only Persona where the teachers and school faculty are all pretty great and not a single criminal in their midst.

1 Edit: The Principal running as a Nazi punching good guy makes this criticism moot. Go Persona 2.

2. So I always thought Lisa's "bye bye!" in battle was...bye bye, as in the English words. There is plenty of gratuitous English in this game. ("Nice-uh shot-uh!") but whaddya know, it's just more of her Cantonese. It's "baaibaai" which literally means the same thing as English's "bye bye." This game is educational.


3. Arsonist from ten years ago huh? Makes Maya clutch at her arm, huh? This game has the subtlety of that hammer that Tatsuya pulls from nowhere to break the clocks but hey, it's this kind of thing that made me think about replaying the game. I had no idea some random NPC name drops Tatsuya Sudo in the first dungeon. Also, to be fair, no Persona game in my experience has ever had any ability to be s subtle.

In a similar vain, a teacher mentions Lisa has the lowest English grades. Also you can run into Jun's mom at some location. Which I forget but the point is, this run, I made sure to stop by at practically every location after a story event to talk with party members and NPC's. I always wondered about this lady because she has a portrait and looks very distinctive and Shadow Maya was fixated on her. The fact she turned out to be Queen Aquarius and that's where she went was very satisfying. There's a lot of stuff like that in this game.


Also one of the best reason to visit all the bajillion stores is to listen to the music.


4. The Saga of the Trans Character Known as Weird Lady

Also there appears to be a trans character in one of the stores, named "Weird Lady" who maybe asked the Joker to make her a man because she was tired of being called butch. I'm not sure if that's progressive or not....

So the saga of Trans Weird Lady has gone from wanting to be a man to proving her manhood (literally) to various people to saying she became a man because being a woman was too hard as she constantly had to reject guys who asked her out, to being a Masquerade Member who wants to see things blow up. Huh. Character development?

5. Bootstraps Are Dumb

I reiterate my earlier position that P2's bootstraps bulltrout is not in any way good. "YOU GOTTA TRUST YOUR FRIENDS!" I mean, who WOULDN'T stand by and watch a "friend" get beaten down by four people while some maniac holds a girl hostage? Not doing anything is the mark of TRUE friendship!

Although, I didn't interfere. Not because I care about Eikichi's pride, more that I just don't care about Eikichi at all. Best thing he'll ever do for me is get the upgraded Persona 20 hours from now.

Now, as for Lisa's "Save Or Let Her Be" moment, it's a bit less clear-cut than Michelle's. The problem is the game presents the choice in a very biased light. They want you to think "will Lisa betray you to the Joker or not?" As such, standing by and watching means you trust her. She won't give into temptation because she cares about you all too much. HOWEVER we have already establishes Sasaki has a Persona and is in league with the Masquerade. Furthermore, the choices as written are: "Let's watch what happens" and "Let's go save her." Now, saving implies she's in dire danger. Given that she's alone with another Persona user who is on the bad guy's side, it's obvious what danger she is in. Also maybe this is just me but "let's watch what happens" sounds really wrong. You don't just watch when people you care about are in danger.

I'm actually really torn on this. I thought it be easy, I'd just go save her and that be the end of it. And of course I can't deny the gameplay element. I know saving her screws me out of a new Persona. The game is bribing me to "just watch." Oddly, this is making the opposite happen. I feel like it's buying me which is pushing me towards the other choice because my integrity and love for Lisa is worth more than that. And with the writing of that last sentence, I've made up my mind to save her.

Also en route to save Lisa an NPC said Sasaki is a predator. Well, that dispels any doubts or second thoughts I had.

6. Superheroes But Only In Other Worlds

You know, something that P3 and onward do is draw a sharp contrast between the normal kids in the regular world and the Persona-wielding superheroes in the various other worlds. But here, Eikichi mentions he used his Persona to beat up people and we see Persona-enhanced strength multiple times throughout the game. Do the Persona powers just not work the same in P4 or 5 at least? There might have been actual dialogue on this but I always got the feeling that the Investigation Team and Phantom Thieves were powerless most of the time. They couldn't just whip out their Personas and kick ass any old time they wished.

7. Everyone In Persona 2 Is smurfing Insane

One thing that always bugged me is that everyone in this game acts really weirdly. Not anime weird, just tweird. Like, Lisa's friends. "We just randomly became idols! Lisa, why aren't you joining in!"? Is everyone in the town supposed to be going insane because of the rumors or the Joker or what? It just bugs the hell ot of me that the only characters who act even vaguely normal are the main characters. And I guess maybe Tatsuya's brother. But every NPC you run into is just really smurfing strange. However I won't deny that, by the end, I kinda loved this crazy little town. Only Inaba was better characterized.


8. Gameplay Talk

You know, it's weird how Fusion Spells are both fun and absolutely terrible. Learning them is both obvious and not obvious. Take for instance the fact I just learned Stone Raise which is Fire > Earth > Wind. Literally the last fight I tried Earth > Wind > Fire just because I was hoping someone who made P2 had heard of the band. It's fun when you just stumble upon a new technique like that but it's also really dumb. Same with Persona Mutations. Okay so certain Fusion Spells make certain Personas evolve? You just have to have pure luck and stumble upon it.

Also I spent hours playing Blackjack so I could get the Orb thingy that lets you Analyze unknown Fusion Spells. It's...not as helpful as I thought. I am learning, though. For instance, I always thought Fusion Spells were just generic magic type + generic magic type. However I have learned some require a specific skill. Like Maya just learned Summon Spirit. Summon Spirit + Wind = Fusion Spell. This only makes the chances of actually learning most Fusion Spells even slimmer, though.

After finally getting Jun I had accumulated over a 1,000,000 Yen so I went and blew all of it getting 10,000 Coins so I could summon Charon.

Also I never in the entire game got a Priestess, Emperor, Empress or Justice card. That seems weird. I guess I suck but you really don't need any of those. For my endgame team I had Beezleboob for Eikichi, Tsukuyomi for Tatsuya, Isis for Jun and just their regular ultimates for Maya and Lisa. I had Charon and some other Persona too there just because why not. I had a Tretraja Card I found and had some other Perrsona learn so I could keep us safe from Hama/Mudo spammers.

I heard Eternal Punishment is a lot harder so I guess I better get good.

I managed to get a Persona with skills to stop random encounters and always escape from battles. I didn't have those last playthrough. These skills helped my second run's enjoyment considerably.

9. Law for Life, Yo


"Simply being given what you want is not real happiness!"


Yuck. Stop spouting Neutral gibberish, Lisa..


10. Maya Reminds Me of Shion Uzuki from Xenosaga

But that statement you can make to Maya, and everything else about her really, is making me think of Shion Uzuki from Xenosaga.


"Shion, who saw the death of her parents at a very young age and saw the death of a loved-one a few years ago, felt that her own life was always right next-door to death. Therefore, she came to possess the view of life&death where life, which "does not go beyond the state of not being dead", places a leg in death. However one wishes for life, death visits like an unavoidable fate. No matter how deeply one wished to escape death, no matter how deeply those around him also wanted not to die, death mercilessly visits.

Based on experience, the dark feeling of the nothingness of death was controlling Shion's life. Because of that very thing, as if turning her eyes away from death, Shion immersed herself in work to an abnormal degree. By turning her eyes away from death and hiding her head in the work that was before her eyes, she was able to forget the feeling of nothingness. It came to be that it gives her strength in a realistic meaning. Her blindly optimistic speech and conduct is something that stemmed from her feeling of nothingness. "

That last part especially really invokes Maya in my view.

10 Edit: Upon completing the game, Maya is substantially more well-adjusted than Shion and probably isn't just hiding her deep-seated neuroses behind a pleasant face. Although she, like Shion, did more or less follow her father's line of work and were probably unhealthily obsessed with that work.

11. .The Problem is Choice

I have no idea what effect some of my choices had on the game. Like, what happens if you ignore the obvious bomb targets and go somewhere else? Also I left Yukino with Fuji because that's the right thing to do. Let her mourn. I have no idea if this effects anything, I also said Lisa was my love because she is. She always be my bae.

Way back before I even played P2 somebody told me to be nice to Maya. I'm right after the room with the memory of her father and the options are "it's alright to cry" and "suck it up!" Earlier when she was freaking out because of the fire you could gently calm her down or slap her. Like, I really do car about Maya but even if i didn't, I wouldn't play some kind of monster who uses "tough love" at the least appropriate times possible. The fact there are even these options to trout on Maya make me curious about what would happen if you do that.


12. Nobody Likes Yukino?

Was listening to great P2 music on YT and someone commented that Yukino is never included in P2 fanart. Not that I was ever a huge fan of hers but she was actually in the group for most of the game .Jun is like that little girl who replaces Galuf in Final Fantasy V, right down to magically getting the departed character's powers. How the hell does tha teven work for Personas?!

12 Edit: Jun comes into his own in the final dungeon but is still by far the weakest character due to his extremely late addition.

13.. Rebellious Teenage Girls

But what's this about Lisa having sex with old guys and doing hard drugs? Nanako's "birthday" just happened and some people were talking about her coming back as a playable character in a future Persona. I jokingly said she smokes and gets a nose piercing because a teenage girl is gonna be crazy rebellious against a policeman father. Then I said that was maybe just an American stereotype. But this stuff Shadow Lisa said makes it sound like it might very well be a stereotype everywhere....

Also I don't hold it against Lisa at all, it just came out of left field.

14. Eikichi Is...Good?!

So Eikichi's dungeon sucked but the conclusion was way better than Lisa's. Like, it was literally perfect. I've never been a huge fan of the character but that ending was good storytelling and a very satisfying conclusion to his character. Really, the fact I have never been overly fond of him makes that ending stand out even more as good writing. It bugged me how he treated Miyabi way way earlier and I've been wondering where the hell she went to so this was just everything I could have wanted.

14 Edit: Eikichi and Lisa are totally the prototype for Junpei/Yukari or Yosuke/Chie, right down to the constant physical abuse. They pack that in the shrines and Xibalba. Lisa hits him about five times in those dungeons which means they packed all that into the last...5 hours of thee game or so. It's weird. Although Eikichi dodging it after you beat his dad is amazing.


Ending Thoughts:

So I can't remember how or when but I learned Maya died a while back. Also some people spoiled me on Nya being behind everything. Then again, that was part my own fault for expressing no interest in finishing this game. They had no reason to hold back giving me this information. Also in all the Persona arguments I've been embroiled in lately, the ending of P2 came up a lot. The result is I wasn't exactly blown away or that interested. The journey was a lot more fascinating than its destination, basically. I did lose my first time against Nya because he randomly killed most of my party and then Charmed the other person so... Otherwise the fight isn't that hard. Or maybe I was overleveled.

All that being said, and I intend to start playing EP later today(probably after posting this in fact), I'm not sure where the whole "P2 spits in the face of "the Power of Friendship solves everything" idea came from. Sure Maya died and her friends couldn't stop it but the ending shows that they all got back together even when they forgot everything.

Also was that ever actually Hitler or was it just Nya in disguise?


Favorites:

Favorite Protagonist: Lisa Silverman or Maya Amano.

It's one of these two fine ladies, not sure which. Lisa is of course always there for you right from the start. Her problems are pretty easy to relate to. I especially like how her relationship with her father matures which is, again, one of those things you only notice if you go out of your way to see it. Kind of annoying but that's how this game was designed. As for Maya, as the co-lead of this game (some argue she's the real main character and Tatsuya is sort of the Vaan of P2) she's charming, spunky and I was profoundly interested in where her relationship with her father was going. You get hints of this all the way at the start of the game with the Demon Negotiation option she has. But it's not really brought up or discussed until way later, like dozens of hours later. And even then it only really gets one scene. I still found it powerful. It helps her theme song is perfect no matter the mood they are going for. But yeah, even more than Lisa, Maya was the person I always wanted to protect.

Favorite Antagonist: King Leo/Tatsuya Sudo

Some people have said the Crawling Chaos is their fave Persona villainb ut I don't get it. He's basically Zemus. Who the hell likes Zemus? I don't care if he was teh root behind it all, he is in, at most, a handful of scenes and is never talked about other than that.

I like Sudo because he has presence in the story.

Maki: [about King Leo] It's a violent, wicked resonation unlike anything I've ever felt before. That power brings only misfortune, and it will consume as many lives as it can..."

He puts the fear of God into Maya, he jerks the heroes around for three dungeons, and he has a great sense of trolling. You get these two fancy riddles and our heroes are like "what could the next puzzle be?! What cryptic message has he left for us this time!!!!?" And it just says "I'm at the Sky Museum. Signed, King Leo."

Plus, there's a lot more to him than I initially realized when I first played the game. although I liked him even then. You just have to talk to Professor Ideal for the details as well as visit every goddammed shop to get random dialogue.


After the meeting with Ideal in the Kuzunoha Agency, Yukino will say in Rosa Candida:

"King is one of the people who's trying to make In Laqetti become reality, right? Is King the one who brought the book into the Masquerade...? Why would he do that...?"

And in Time Castle she says

"Everything that King was talking about was written in In Laqetti. It's almost as if his actions were motivated by what was written there from the very start."

Eikichi in French restaurant:

"So that In Laqetti book started out because of the voices that King heard?"

They also discuss King hearing voices in that same shop earlier on, after the Smile Hirasaka bevent.

Basically it seems to me that Sudo went insane and tried to validate his insanity. Ever heard the defense of "I'm not crazy, YOU'RE ALL THE ONES WHO ARE CRAZY!"? Well, in this "rumors become reality" world, that actually can work. Alls his delusions become fact and he's no longer the twisted and abused victim that he once was. Or so my reading of his psychology goes.

Also, related topic: They always treat her like a joke but is Professor Ideal a villain? She worked with Sudo, a guy whose only other activities seem to be burning trout, blowing trout up and being imprisoned or tortured. She called him the "channeler" presumably referring to the fact he heard voices. She interpreted those voices as aliens or Maiyans or something and wrote this book. Basically, she took advantage of a mentally unhealthy kid. Plus it's all her fault this Hitler bulltrout got started.

Same goes for Jun's father. They were both grown adults, teachers no less, who enabled a mentally damaged and physically abused child instead of, I dunno, getting him to some therapy?

My Top 10 Innocent Sin Songs:

Main Theme A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_XtIemqpS0) Basically the "everything will be alright as long as we have each other" theme. It represents a lot of what I love about this game and indeed all of Persona.

"In Rakeshi" (https://youtu.be/oClvC0zYy70) Nobody can agree how to spell this damned word. But seriously guys, I gotta warn you about these aliens. There was this one named Nyx who came to Earth and brought death and...I'M NOT CRAZY I TELL YA!

"Knights of the Holy Lance" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8wZfpI_QgE) This game DESPERATELY needed more than one boss theme, as evidenced by this being one of the best and most memorable tracks in the game. Still not sure why the lady Nazi you fight with Yukino says "Heil Sigfried!" but whatever. Song is awesome.

"Final Boss Theme" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQVKqFXKa00) As I was saying, different boss music = very good and welcome. It also helps this is very fitting and intense. It blends notes of intimidating and inspiration and it really works.

Lisa's Theme (https://youtu.be/yIwQszT9j5s) How could she NOT be my favorite with a theme like this? From the moment she's introduced with this playing, it was love.

"Small Mountain" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK1nn7DI3s4) A really good theme considering it was one of the most boring areas in the game and with this game's dungeons, that's saying a lot. Still, it's very inspirational and gets me pumped to go save Fuji from the Nazis.

Maya Amano, Master of Vehicles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-nVAjbKTNo) This needed to be played more and also someone needs to put up a 10 hour mix on YT.

"GOLD" (https://youtu.be/o_uhqXcYRVY)Say what you will about P2's dungeons (they're actually worse than Tartarus or P4's dungeons as far as I'm concerned) but they all have great music.

"Palace of the Golden Bull" (https://youtu.be/86xPsKrVvl0) Although I think Lisa's Shrine is the only one with a really memorable song. It's so emotional and haunting and I'm glad I started with her place.


"Kuzunoha Detective Agency (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOIMEVtUBR8) This song is way too smurfin' good. I also really liked Tamaki and Tadashi. Best side characters in the game.

[Fynn]

I wouldn't say it spits in the face of the power offriendship. It deconstructs it, ergo, the trope is taken apart and reexamined

[krissy]

i have started p2:innocent whatever
after accidentally starting p2: endless whatever

aka i started p22 instead of p21 for like ten minutes

anyway this game is definitely a product of it's time in terms of sexism etc eh
some of these character descriptions...
like straight out of an erotic fan fiction written by a teen nerd

[Wolf Kanno]

Congratulations on finishing the first half of an underrated title in the Persona series. I'll give you some insight on your commentary.




1. Evil Principals are bad and dumb P4 often gets blasted for being simplistic yet it's the only Persona where the teachers and school faculty are all pretty great and not a single criminal in their midst.

1 Edit: The Principal running as a Nazi punching good guy makes this criticism moot. Go Persona 2.

Part of this is an in-joke from P1. The principle and the homeroom teacher are both from Persona 1 and the guy was known for being an asshole, his name itself sounds similar to an actual Japanese demon which becomes his nickname. He only saves the school if you lie to the student asking if he is still alive, otherwise a statue will be erected in his name and the P1 cast will show up to stop the Nazi's instead.


2. So I always thought Lisa's "bye bye!" in battle was...bye bye, as in the English words. There is plenty of gratuitous English in this game. ("Nice-uh shot-uh!") but whaddya know, it's just more of her Cantonese. It's "baaibaai" which literally means the same thing as English's "bye bye." This game is educational.

Yeah, it always amazes me the amount of research they actually do for these games.


In a similar vain, a teacher mentions Lisa has the lowest English grades. Also you can run into Jun's mom at some location. Which I forget but the point is, this run, I made sure to stop by at practically every location after a story event to talk with party members and NPC's. I always wondered about this lady because she has a portrait and looks very distinctive and Shadow Maya was fixated on her. The fact she turned out to be Queen Aquarius and that's where she went was very satisfying. There's a lot of stuff like that in this game.

This is one of my favorite elements about the earlier entries. P1 does something similar concerning two missing classmates. It actually makes party banter worthwhile.



Also one of the best reason to visit all the bajillion stores is to listen to the music.
I miss the Satoshi Tadashi Pharmacy theme would come back. The fact Nanjou of all people keeps getting it stuck in his head is absolutely hilarious.



5. Bootstraps Are Dumb

I reiterate my earlier position that P2's bootstraps bulltrout is not in any way good. "YOU GOTTA TRUST YOUR FRIENDS!" I mean, who WOULDN'T stand by and watch a "friend" get beaten down by four people while some maniac holds a girl hostage? Not doing anything is the mark of TRUE friendship!

Although, I didn't interfere. Not because I care about Eikichi's pride, more that I just don't care about Eikichi at all. Best thing he'll ever do for me is get the upgraded Persona 20 hours from now.

Now, as for Lisa's "Save Or Let Her Be" moment, it's a bit less clear-cut than Michelle's. The problem is the game presents the choice in a very biased light. They want you to think "will Lisa betray you to the Joker or not?" As such, standing by and watching means you trust her. She won't give into temptation because she cares about you all too much. HOWEVER we have already establishes Sasaki has a Persona and is in league with the Masquerade. Furthermore, the choices as written are: "Let's watch what happens" and "Let's go save her." Now, saving implies she's in dire danger. Given that she's alone with another Persona user who is on the bad guy's side, it's obvious what danger she is in. Also maybe this is just me but "let's watch what happens" sounds really wrong. You don't just watch when people you care about are in danger.

I'm actually really torn on this. I thought it be easy, I'd just go save her and that be the end of it. And of course I can't deny the gameplay element. I know saving her screws me out of a new Persona. The game is bribing me to "just watch." Oddly, this is making the opposite happen. I feel like it's buying me which is pushing me towards the other choice because my integrity and love for Lisa is worth more than that. And with the writing of that last sentence, I've made up my mind to save her.

Also en route to save Lisa an NPC said Sasaki is a predator. Well, that dispels any doubts or second thoughts I had.


I think this just depends on how you feel about friendship. I tend to prefer autonomy in my friends so I am the type to force my friends to do stuff for themselves rather than always depend on me to help them. It kind of goes along with the old saying: "Feed a poor man a fish and he's fed for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll be fed for the rest of his days". Logically, letting the cast face their own fears on their own seems to me to be the one solution that will help them in the long run. Eikichi's probably made more sense to me since as an actual "thug" type character, it would be more harmful to cramp his style by coming to his rescue than letting him sort it out himself. To me, considering these moments are connected to obtaining advanced versions of the characters starting Personas, it makes sense that they could only be obtained by having the characters learn to grow by themselves.


6. Superheroes But Only In Other Worlds

You know, something that P3 and onward do is draw a sharp contrast between the normal kids in the regular world and the Persona-wielding superheroes in the various other worlds. But here, Eikichi mentions he used his Persona to beat up people and we see Persona-enhanced strength multiple times throughout the game. Do the Persona powers just not work the same in P4 or 5 at least? There might have been actual dialogue on this but I always got the feeling that the Investigation Team and Phantom Thieves were powerless most of the time. They couldn't just whip out their Personas and kick ass any old time they wished.

Yeah this is one of the bigger changes in the series besides how Personas are obtained. The early games make it obvious that you persona power can manifest in the real world even if not directly. One of the more amsuing ways is with the Rumormonger Toro. He was a minor character in P1 whom manifests Mara of all things as his Persona in the Snow Queen Quest, but since Mara is an avatar of desire, it's ability give Toro an interesting empathy that allows him to read people and makes him a great sales rep. Reiji on the otherhand, an actual party member from P1 is terrible at sales work due to the fact that his personas (Devil and Death Arcana) give him a very intimidating aura despite being a pretty friendly guy as long as you don't mention his brother...

The later games make it obvious the P4 and 5 casts can't manifest their powers unless they are in the TV World or Cognitive World. P3 is a bit weird about it and seems to hold onto the older series considering Chidori's Persona manifests in the real world and grants her unique abilities. Fuuka is hinted to have psychic powers as well, which are alluded to being a physical manifestation of her Persona ability. This only gets weird when you realize P3-5 all take place in the same universe and even weirder if you remember that P2:EP is alluded to be set in the same universe as well.



7. Everyone In Persona 2 Is smurfing Insane

One thing that always bugged me is that everyone in this game acts really weirdly. Not anime weird, just tweird. Like, Lisa's friends. "We just randomly became idols! Lisa, why aren't you joining in!"? Is everyone in the town supposed to be going insane because of the rumors or the Joker or what? It just bugs the hell ot of me that the only characters who act even vaguely normal are the main characters. And I guess maybe Tatsuya's brother. But every NPC you run into is just really smurfing strange. However I won't deny that, by the end, I kinda loved this crazy little town. Only Inaba was better characterized.

This is honestly one of the things I miss when playing through the later games. I mean the SL casts tend to be eccentric but I kind of miss the wacky shopkeepers and weird NPCs that P2 had. I mean there are some great NPCS in the later games as well but not quite as memorable as the nutjobs in this entry.



8. Gameplay Talk

You know, it's weird how Fusion Spells are both fun and absolutely terrible. Learning them is both obvious and not obvious. Take for instance the fact I just learned Stone Raise which is Fire > Earth > Wind. Literally the last fight I tried Earth > Wind > Fire just because I was hoping someone who made P2 had heard of the band. It's fun when you just stumble upon a new technique like that but it's also really dumb. Same with Persona Mutations. Okay so certain Fusion Spells make certain Personas evolve? You just have to have pure luck and stumble upon it.

Also I spent hours playing Blackjack so I could get the Orb thingy that lets you Analyze unknown Fusion Spells. It's...not as helpful as I thought. I am learning, though. For instance, I always thought Fusion Spells were just generic magic type + generic magic type. However I have learned some require a specific skill. Like Maya just learned Summon Spirit. Summon Spirit + Wind = Fusion Spell. This only makes the chances of actually learning most Fusion Spells even slimmer, though.

After finally getting Jun I had accumulated over a 1,000,000 Yen so I went and blew all of it getting 10,000 Coins so I could summon Charon.

Also I never in the entire game got a Priestess, Emperor, Empress or Justice card. That seems weird. I guess I suck but you really don't need any of those. For my endgame team I had Beezleboob for Eikichi, Tsukuyomi for Tatsuya, Isis for Jun and just their regular ultimates for Maya and Lisa. I had Charon and some other Persona too there just because why not. I had a Tretraja Card I found and had some other Perrsona learn so I could keep us safe from Hama/Mudo spammers.

I heard Eternal Punishment is a lot harder so I guess I better get good.

I managed to get a Persona with skills to stop random encounters and always escape from battles. I didn't have those last playthrough. These skills helped my second run's enjoyment considerably.

Well, summon spirit makes sense when you realize it combines with any oter elemental spell to summon a demon affiliated with the element. There are also fusion spells that require specific personas. There is one that requires all three Hindu Gods, the legendary Armegeddon Spell with Lucifer and Satan debut in this entry, and there is even one that requires you party to be equipped with the whole Devil Arcana.

I generally tell people to just use a guide to learn all of the fusion spells, just to save people from the headache of finding all of them. As for the mutation and unlcoking hidden skills, while the RNG factor can be annoying, thankfully it just requires the character to abuse fusion spells. I find that easiest way to get a specific mutation/unlock is to make sure the persona you want to do so comes last in the fusion spell because 9 out of ten times they are the ones that get the change.


9. Law for Life, Yo


"Simply being given what you want is not real happiness!"


Yuck. Stop spouting Neutral gibberish, Lisa..

Chaos is the only way baby, if you want something you have to take it.



10. Maya Reminds Me of Shion Uzuki from Xenosaga

But that statement you can make to Maya, and everything else about her really, is making me think of Shion Uzuki from Xenosaga.


"Shion, who saw the death of her parents at a very young age and saw the death of a loved-one a few years ago, felt that her own life was always right next-door to death. Therefore, she came to possess the view of life&death where life, which "does not go beyond the state of not being dead", places a leg in death. However one wishes for life, death visits like an unavoidable fate. No matter how deeply one wished to escape death, no matter how deeply those around him also wanted not to die, death mercilessly visits.

Based on experience, the dark feeling of the nothingness of death was controlling Shion's life. Because of that very thing, as if turning her eyes away from death, Shion immersed herself in work to an abnormal degree. By turning her eyes away from death and hiding her head in the work that was before her eyes, she was able to forget the feeling of nothingness. It came to be that it gives her strength in a realistic meaning. Her blindly optimistic speech and conduct is something that stemmed from her feeling of nothingness. "

That last part especially really invokes Maya in my view.

10 Edit: Upon completing the game, Maya is substantially more well-adjusted than Shion and probably isn't just hiding her deep-seated neuroses behind a pleasant face. Although she, like Shion, did more or less follow her father's line of work and were probably unhealthily obsessed with that work.

Yeah they definitely have similarities but as you noticed, Maya is far more well-adjusted about the whole thing. While both can be childish, I feel Maya is more likable since she doesn't have that same self-centered stubborness that made Shion kind of a pain to deal with.


11. .The Problem is Choice

I have no idea what effect some of my choices had on the game. Like, what happens if you ignore the obvious bomb targets and go somewhere else? Also I left Yukino with Fuji because that's the right thing to do. Let her mourn. I have no idea if this effects anything, I also said Lisa was my love because she is. She always be my bae.

Way back before I even played P2 somebody told me to be nice to Maya. I'm right after the room with the memory of her father and the options are "it's alright to cry" and "suck it up!" Earlier when she was freaking out because of the fire you could gently calm her down or slap her. Like, I really do car about Maya but even if i didn't, I wouldn't play some kind of monster who uses "tough love" at the least appropriate times possible. The fact there are even these options to trout on Maya make me curious about what would happen if you do that.

Going back to the "bootstrap" message of the game, telling Yukino to come with is actually the correct choice which unlocks her Ultimate Persona Durga. The idea here is that Fuji's death will be in vain if she stays to mourn because frankly the world is getting ready to end and she can mourn when the fighting is over. Doing this also saves Anna's life and Yukino's mind since the death of her Shadow Self mentally kills Yukino as well. Another change is that instead of fighting Anna and Shadow Yukino, you face off with more of the Last Battalion to save Anna. Also, if one has played Persona 1, you will know that next to Nanjo, Yukino is the ultimate "cruel to be kind" character in the franchise so telling her to suck it up kind of keeps her on track with who she really is.

As for Maya's things, if memory serves me correct, a lot of the choices will change some of the group talking abilities her and Tatsuya can have and I wouldn't be surprised if it might change some dialogue during her Shadow battle. Don't quote me on that, it's been awhile.


12. Nobody Likes Yukino?

Was listening to great P2 music on YT and someone commented that Yukino is never included in P2 fanart. Not that I was ever a huge fan of hers but she was actually in the group for most of the game .Jun is like that little girl who replaces Galuf in Final Fantasy V, right down to magically getting the departed character's powers. How the hell does tha teven work for Personas?!

This person simply didn't look hard enough.
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Granted a good part of that might also be the fact she has always gotten the short end of the stick in the West. The scenario she was playable in for P1 was cut from the North American release and Innocent Sin was skipped in the West as well. Her role in Eternal Punishment is pretty small.



12 Edit: Jun comes into his own in the final dungeon but is still by far the weakest character due to his extremely late addition.

When you factor in that Jun is also Joker and a lot of the plot is trying to figure out why he has a bone to pick with you, I feel Jun has some pretty good characterization. You learn a lot more about his family situation in EP as well, same with Tatsuya.



13.. Rebellious Teenage Girls

But what's this about Lisa having sex with old guys and doing hard drugs? Nanako's "birthday" just happened and some people were talking about her coming back as a playable character in a future Persona. I jokingly said she smokes and gets a nose piercing because a teenage girl is gonna be crazy rebellious against a policeman father. Then I said that was maybe just an American stereotype. But this stuff Shadow Lisa said makes it sound like it might very well be a stereotype everywhere....

Also I don't hold it against Lisa at all, it just came out of left field.

I kind of feel like it was more shock value than anything, but the main message with her Shadow is her conflicted feelings about being different versus standing out. I've always liked Lisa's story arc, even when I had only read a transcript fo the games script back when IS was still Japan only.


14. Eikichi Is...Good?!

So Eikichi's dungeon sucked but the conclusion was way better than Lisa's. Like, it was literally perfect. I've never been a huge fan of the character but that ending was good storytelling and a very satisfying conclusion to his character. Really, the fact I have never been overly fond of him makes that ending stand out even more as good writing. It bugged me how he treated Miyabi way way earlier and I've been wondering where the hell she went to so this was just everything I could have wanted.

I love Eikichi's story with Miyabi and I feel the guy comes across like a one note character but has so many damn layers. Frankly I feel like he and Yukino got the best deals out of the EP world.

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14 Edit: Eikichi and Lisa are totally the prototype for Junpei/Yukari or Yosuke/Chie, right down to the constant physical abuse. They pack that in the shrines and Xibalba. Lisa hits him about five times in those dungeons which means they packed all that into the last...5 hours of thee game or so. It's weird. Although Eikichi dodging it after you beat his dad is amazing.

Yes and no, technically Nanjo and Masao are the archetypes from Persona 1, but Lisa and Eikichi start the gender dynamic for it.


All that being said, and I intend to start playing EP later today(probably after posting this in fact), I'm not sure where the whole "P2 spits in the face of "the Power of Friendship solves everything" idea came from. Sure Maya died and her friends couldn't stop it but the ending shows that they all got back together even when they forgot everything.

That's not completely true, but once you start EP you'll understand. Technically the groups payment for restarting the world was not just their memories.



Also was that ever actually Hitler or was it just Nya in disguise?
He was Nyalarthotep all along, same with Jun's father since his real father died years before the plot began and the ghost in the Sevens Sister High clock tower is heavily implied to be him because you can find out that's where he committed suicide.



Favorites:

Favorite Protagonist: Lisa Silverman or Maya Amano.

It's one of these two fine ladies, not sure which. Lisa is of course always there for you right from the start. Her problems are pretty easy to relate to. I especially like how her relationship with her father matures which is, again, one of those things you only notice if you go out of your way to see it. Kind of annoying but that's how this game was designed. As for Maya, as the co-lead of this game (some argue she's the real main character and Tatsuya is sort of the Vaan of P2) she's charming, spunky and I was profoundly interested in where her relationship with her father was going. You get hints of this all the way at the start of the game with the Demon Negotiation option she has. But it's not really brought up or discussed until way later, like dozens of hours later. And even then it only really gets one scene. I still found it powerful. It helps her theme song is perfect no matter the mood they are going for. But yeah, even more than Lisa, Maya was the person I always wanted to protect.

Yeah I love the female chracters in P2, Ulala is one of my faves in EP. Maya is nice cause she carefully balances being this likable person that everyone loves without being so damn perfect you feel like she's a Canon Sue. Lisa is also a treat but I would be lying if I didn't say that a lot of that has to do with her relationship with Eikichi which always felt like an amsuing sibling relationship. Their nicknames for each other are hilarious. Interesting enough, when Nocturne was being developed, Maya and Lisa were used as testing models for the new engine along with Sid from the original Devil Summoner.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/9/9b/Lisa_making_of.png/revision/latest?cb=20120508105509

Another fun fact is that one of the new themes Fuuka can play in Tartarus for FES and P3P is actually a remix of Maya's Theme.


Favorite Antagonist: King Leo/Tatsuya Sudo

Some people have said the Crawling Chaos is their fave Persona villainb ut I don't get it. He's basically Zemus. Who the hell likes Zemus? I don't care if he was teh root behind it all, he is in, at most, a handful of scenes and is never talked about other than that.

I like Sudo because he has presence in the story.

Maki: [about King Leo] It's a violent, wicked resonation unlike anything I've ever felt before. That power brings only misfortune, and it will consume as many lives as it can..."

He puts the fear of God into Maya, he jerks the heroes around for three dungeons, and he has a great sense of trolling. You get these two fancy riddles and our heroes are like "what could the next puzzle be?! What cryptic message has he left for us this time!!!!?" And it just says "I'm at the Sky Museum. Signed, King Leo."

Basically it seems to me that Sudo went insane and tried to validate his insanity. Ever heard the defense of "I'm not crazy, YOU'RE ALL THE ONES WHO ARE CRAZY!"? Well, in this "rumors become reality" world, that actually can work. Alls his delusions become fact and he's no longer the twisted and abused victim that he once was. Or so my reading of his psychology goes.


Oh don't get me wrong Sudou is a great antagonist, though I love his role in EP a little better, but EP kind of seals the deal on Nyalrthotep. I mean you don't even know about his existence until near the end of the game but, in EP, you will learn fairly early he's behind everything. I mean he's actually the "voice" that Sudou here's and the game's retcon the fact that Nyalarthotep is what caused Kandori from P1 to turn evil as well while posing as his Persona. Nayalrthotep's presence is felt a lot more in EP since he doesn't really have to hide it anymore. He's the cause of a ll the problems in the first two entries, and as the only confirmed godlike being in the setting, some fans theorize that every villain in the sequels are simply different incarnations of him since he's the very physical embodiment of all of mankind's negative traits just like all of the future villains are and Nyalrthotep is a well known shapeshifting entity.



With that said, Sudou is pretty damn awesome and the most memorable of the Four Rulers of the Masked Circle. Still I can't help but feel like his story in EP is a lot more twisted and tragic.

Also, related topic: They always treat her like a joke but is Professor Ideal a villain? She worked with Sudo, a guy whose only other activities seem to be burning trout, blowing trout up and being imprisoned or tortured. She called him the "channeler" presumably referring to the fact he heard voices. She interpreted those voices as aliens or Maiyans or something and wrote this book. Basically, she took advantage of a mentally unhealthy kid. Plus it's all her fault this Hitler bulltrout got started.

Same goes for Jun's father. They were both grown adults, teachers no less, who enabled a mentally damaged and physically abused child instead of, I dunno, getting him to some therapy?


She's not evil, just someone who has spent her lie with strong beliefs that got her laughed out of every respectable intellectual circle. It doesn't surprise me that her wish to prove her theories right would make her an easy pawn for Nyalarthotep. As for her and Jun's father concerning Sudou's mental disorder, it was less them taking advantage of his mental health and more of them actually beleiving the voices were aliens, but again, it's heavily implied the voices Sudou were hearing was actually Nyalarthoteps. So they were all being manipualted by him in order for him to win "the bet".

[Forsaken Lover]

I have heard about Nya being the villains of the later Persona games but I don't think that's the case if only because of real world reasons. The early Persona stuff is old and most fans don't know and don't care about it. To really involve the characters of the older games in the new ones would alienate a lot of people, especially fans in the West who, from what I know, are actually the majority of the people buying Persona games.

Also Nyx was an alien who predates mankind.

Also I played the first 20 minutes or so of Eternal Punishment just to see what was up.

So everything seems nice and familiar so far. Except..Professor Saeko is now Ms. Smith? Eh?

Also Maya has been promoted to main character which apparently entails having most of her dialogue removed. This will be kind of interesting and different seeing as I had a whole game of a very fleshed out character. I feel like I should try and replicate that. Then again, that is a Maya-Who-Never-Was now.... Hm.

Also I can't inspect the janitor's office to find ropes and candles and then muse about their...."uses."

Also on the topic of Yukino being happier, I think most people are better off in this new world 'cuz less death and destruction, at least at present.

As for the decision with her, the scene is very sad. Yukino is heartbroken, the music is depressing and even Tatsuya's face when you make the decision shows how weary and sad he is himself. I just couldn't look at that fact and take everything else happening into account and tell her "SUCK IT UP!" That's how I read that line.

The Persona games have a lot of moral judgments and they will happily choke you on all of them. SMT isn't too different from what I know. At least Nocturne was pretty even-handed and didn't really try to push anything on you. While TDE was preferred, it's also easily ignored.

[Wolf Kanno]

I have heard about Nya being the villains of the later Persona games but I don't think that's the case if only because of real world reasons. The early Persona stuff is old and most fans don't know and don't care about it. To really involve the characters of the older games in the new ones would alienate a lot of people, especially fans in the West who, from what I know, are actually the majority of the people buying Persona games.

Well the director of P3-5 (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Persona_DoubleJump_Atlus_Interview.png) has come out and said that Philemon exists in those games as well. The Butterfly seen in all of the games are representations of him, so it stands to reason that Nyalarthotep would still exist as well. Considering most of the super natural enemies have the same origin as him, the theory stands to reason.


Also Nyx was an alien who predates mankind.

Alien is the wrong word here, maybe primordial concept of death would be better. Course this is the second attempt by her to end the world in the Persona series.


Also I played the first 20 minutes or so of Eternal Punishment just to see what was up.

So everything seems nice and familiar so far. Except..Professor Saeko is now Ms. Smith? Eh?

Blame this on the embarrassingly bad localization for Persona 1. Atlus tried to backtrack on it for P2 and retained all of the original names except for returning characters from P1 who still retain part of their bad English names given in that title. Nanjo is Nate, Eriko is Ellen, and Kandori still has that embarrassing Italian surname. Yukino survived because even in the original, they kept her as the token Asian for the game and let her keep her name surprisingly enough. The rest of the game largely holds true to the original though, so don't worry too much about things being lost in translation.


Also Maya has been promoted to main character which apparently entails having most of her dialogue removed. This will be kind of interesting and different seeing as I had a whole game of a very fleshed out character. I feel like I should try and replicate that. Then again, that is a Maya-Who-Never-Was now.... Hm.

Yeah, and Tatsuya actually talks. Most fans feel it was better for both of them in Innocent Sin when Tatsuya didn't talk and Maya could.


Also on the topic of Yukino being happier, I think most people are better off in this new world 'cuz less death and destruction, at least at present.
It's nicer is some ways, darker in others. Fujii and Jun's father are both still alive in this reality but it won;t take long before you see what I mean about this entry being a bit darker.


As for the decision with her, the scene is very sad. Yukino is heartbroken, the music is depressing and even Tatsuya's face when you make the decision shows how weary and sad he is himself. I just couldn't look at that fact and take everything else happening into account and tell her "SUCK IT UP!" That's how I read that line.

Fair enough, for me it was easy to tell her to move on but that's largely because mourning never made sense to me and I would like to think the dead would want us to stay more positive and not let their deaths drag the living down. Besides ANNA was running loose and Yukino was the only one who can get through to her.


The Persona games have a lot of moral judgments and they will happily choke you on all of them. SMT isn't too different from what I know. At least Nocturne was pretty even-handed and didn't really try to push anything on you. While TDE was preferred, it's also easily ignored.
Part of me likes to think that the "Cruel to be Kind" attitude in P2, besides simply being a different attitude from a different time frame, might be the team swinging the other way around after P1 made it obvious that doing the more emotional answer despite logic saying it's the wrong choice, is always the right choice in that game in order to get the Best Ending. Seriously, the best advise I can give people for P1 and the SEBEC arc is to always do the opposite of what Nanjo/Nate tells you to do. That will answer 90% of the moral choices needed to get on the Best Ending track.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well the director of P3-5 (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Persona_DoubleJump_Atlus_Interview.png) has come out and said that Philemon exists in those games as well. The Butterfly seen in all of the games are representations of him, so it stands to reason that Nyalarthotep would still exist as well. Considering most of the super natural enemies have the same origin as him, the theory stands to reason.


Alien is the wrong word here, maybe primordial concept of death would be better. Course this is the second attempt by her to end the world in the Persona series.


I'm aware about Philemon but he's not actively doing anything anymore so why is Nyarly different?

And I'm like 99% certain Ryoji says Nyx is extraterrestrial. She's not from the planet Earth at all. There are apparently multiple alien life forms in SMT anyway. Some group called the Administrators was one told to me elsewhere.



Part of me likes to think that the "Cruel to be Kind" attitude in P2, besides simply being a different attitude from a different time frame, might be the team swinging the other way around after P1 made it obvious that doing the more emotional answer despite logic saying it's the wrong choice, is always the right choice in that game in order to get the Best Ending. Seriously, the best advise I can give people for P1 and the SEBEC arc is to always do the opposite of what Nanjo/Nate tells you to do. That will answer 90% of the moral choices needed to get on the Best Ending track.

I should maybe play P1 sometime. Even the old school fans don't seem to like it much in my experience. Their reverence is reserved for P2.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well the director of P3-5 (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Persona_DoubleJump_Atlus_Interview.png) has come out and said that Philemon exists in those games as well. The Butterfly seen in all of the games are representations of him, so it stands to reason that Nyalarthotep would still exist as well. Considering most of the super natural enemies have the same origin as him, the theory stands to reason.


Alien is the wrong word here, maybe primordial concept of death would be better. Course this is the second attempt by her to end the world in the Persona series.


I'm aware about Philemon but he's not actively doing anything anymore so why is Nyarly different?

Philemon is still guiding the main protagonist, he's just taken a back seat to Igor to do the heavy lifting, yet he is still doing something. It wouldn't be really any different for Nyaralthotep to be doing the same thing. As I said, it's more of a logical conclusion that since they all have the same origin, they are likely all connected as one being.


And I'm like 99% certain Ryoji says Nyx is extraterrestrial. She's not from the planet Earth at all. There are apparently multiple alien life forms in SMT anyway. Some group called the Administrators was one told to me elsewhere.

I don't remember Ryuji saying she was an alien, primordial death yes, but not an alien, but looking over at the MegaTen Wiki, it's stated that Nyx is something like Lovecraft's elder gods, a being outside of time and space that somehow crashed into the moon and has been biding it's time before it can wake. So perhaps alien isn't too far off. Man that's as lame as the revelations made about the origins of the Angels from EVA in the supplemental materials.

As for other aliens in the series, they do exist certainly, though I'll mention that Devil Survivor (where the Administrators are from) is kind of an odd duck compared to the rest of the franchise. It''s a series that tries to combine the best parts of Persona and the mainline games with some rather weird results. I'm currently still perturbed with them over Tokyo Mirage Sessions.


I should maybe play P1 sometime. Even the old school fans don't seem to like it much in my experience. Their reverence is reserved for P2.

P1 is an experimental title, which is a nice way of saying it tries a lot of interesting ideas to make it different from mainline MegaTen in some not so fun ways. It's one of the goofier entries in the series, and there are some odd quirks about it.

[Forsaken Lover]

Also I should mention I know Sudo is The Joker in EP.I'm not sure how big of a spoiler that is going into the game. I'm kinda hoping to keep things interesting and surprising so the climax feels more...climactic than IS did. Sudo being the Joker is all I know about EP.

And fair enough about IS Hitler always being Nyarly but I wonder about how deep that rabbit hole goes. Like, rumors make people go crazy and act differently but can they actually create all new life or is it just Nyarly? Were all the knights and Nazis just it, as well? The last group of Longinus Knights definitely seemed to know what was going on and made me think they might be Nya, too.

Also those weird Mayan Aliens who have your powers feel like we were being trolled. Again, another reason I'm wondering if rumors can actually create thinking lifeforms or if they are just it in different forms.

[Fynn]

The EP Joker isn't played as a twist at all. If anytying, by the time thats stated in-game, the game pretty much assumes you've deduced as much already

[Forsaken Lover]

The EP Joker isn't played as a twist at all. If anytying, by the time thats stated in-game, the game pretty much assumes you've deduced as much already

I thought you hadn't played EP?

Thanks for the info, though.


Also I was looking at videos of the PSP version of Innocent Sin and the final boss fight with Nyarly gives a way different vibe from what I saw of it in the PSX version.

He basically sounds like Izanami, what with his starting quote of "It is a father's nature to be the ultimate obstacle to his child. Very well - reach for your future with all your strength." And when you Contact him he says "Try and surpass your father!"

He says roughly the same thing in the PSX version for Contacting but his initial battle dialogue is way different: "Fine... I'll play with you a little while longer as your fathers.... Give me everything you've got in your feeble attempts to cling to your future!"

The voice-acting is also a thing. In the PSP version, Laxus (I have no idea what the VA's name is, I just know his roles and one of them is Laxus from Fairy Tail) just sounds so dispassionate with none of the sneering contempt that I read all of Nyarly's lines with in my head.

[Fynn]

I am actually playing EP right now. The Sudou stuff is actuallu pretty much the first arc of the game

[Wolf Kanno]

Also I should mention I know Sudo is The Joker in EP.I'm not sure how big of a spoiler that is going into the game. I'm kinda hoping to keep things interesting and surprising so the climax feels more...climactic than IS did. Sudo being the Joker is all I know about EP.

And fair enough about IS Hitler always being Nyarly but I wonder about how deep that rabbit hole goes. Like, rumors make people go crazy and act differently but can they actually create all new life or is it just Nyarly? Were all the knights and Nazis just it, as well? The last group of Longinus Knights definitely seemed to know what was going on and made me think they might be Nya, too.

Also those weird Mayan Aliens who have your powers feel like we were being trolled. Again, another reason I'm wondering if rumors can actually create thinking lifeforms or if they are just it in different forms.

A little of both actually... It's hard to say sometimes but generally the figures moving the plot along are usually accepted to be Nyarly, but there are also cases where he does seem to have more autonomous figures. He kind of brings someone back from the dead in EP, but it's shown that said figure is actually separate from Nyarly and well aware of his presence unlike when he assumed Jun's father's form. He's confirmed to be Jun's dad, Maya's dad, Joker's Persona, and Hitler in IS. He also has a fourth form that actually helps you cause he'e the ultimate troll. He obviously takes a few new forms in EP but I won't spoil any of that since two of you are playing it right now.

[Fynn]

One thing's for sure though.

Eternal Punishment is hard

I can already tell it's going to take me like, three times as long as IS to beat if only because I actually have to think about the party composition this time around, rather than just relying on hand-out Personas.

[Forsaken Lover]

So I had a theory that Persona games with punchy girls are the best Persona games hence why I love Innocent Sin and Persona 4. (for me it goes P4G > P2IS > P3FES > P5)

But apparently Makoto was the punchy one in P5. I never used her. Oh well.

Theory destroyed but Ulala is still the best character in Eternal Punishment so far.

Also people love to compare P5 and P2 but I see some P4 in P2. Sumaru City and Inaba both have way more life and character to them than Tokyo ever did.

[Forsaken Lover]

If I was smarter or a better writer I would like to do some sort of Persona meets Nocturne story where the Reason people are actual characters you care about instead of unlikable jerks. The fact they are all uninteresting and unlikable really undermines the whole idea, which is a great concept.

First half of the game would be making Social Links with them and then the second half is them setting out to remake the world according to their ideals.

Imagine your various Persona buddies trying to think up how a new world should be run.

[Wolf Kanno]

So I had a theory that Persona games with punchy girls are the best Persona games hence why I love Innocent Sin and Persona 4. (for me it goes P4G > P2IS > P3FES > P5)

But apparently Makoto was the punchy one in P5. I never used her. Oh well.

Theory destroyed but Ulala is still the best character in Eternal Punishment so far.

Also people love to compare P5 and P2 but I see some P4 in P2. Sumaru City and Inaba both have way more life and character to them than Tokyo ever did.

I feel P4 borrowed a lot from P2 than P5 did. P5 mostly has the conspiracy plot element, that one villain type deal in the plot, and the story eventually focuses on more adult things.

I find it amusing that in the course of six entries, only two of them have male fisticuff characters. Course I feel the fisticuff characters in general are usually some of the more likable characters.

I've also never met an Emperor Arcana playable character I didn't like.

[Forsaken Lover]

I feel P4 borrowed a lot from P2 than P5 did. P5 mostly has the conspiracy plot element, that one villain type deal in the plot, and the story eventually focuses on more adult things.

You're the first person I've seen who says P4 was like P2. P5 was the one I see praised for its "return" to older ideas and tone and blah blah blah.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well I mean both stories begin with characters investigating whether a rumor is true, both stories have a theme of making the cast explore their less pleasant sides and what not. Chie borrows a few traits from Lisa from her love of kung fu to the fact she speaks a bit of Cantonese as well, Yukiko retains a part of Ekichie's story of being expected to take over the family business they have no interest in, and once again we have a police affiliated character whose storyline involves investigating a cold case involving a family member.

Granted P5 borrows just as much: The whole plot is kicked off by a bet, real world people are aware of the supernatural element going on in world and have built a conspiracy around it, Ann also takes elements from Lisa, Yusuke takes a few design elements from Jun, the Nijima sister's story with each other is a reversed age version of the Suou brother's story, and both stories involve battling corrupt and perverted versions of people's psyche.

Both plots also involve the parties facing off with a manipulative human villain who is ultimately shown to be simply a pawn of a greater supernatural force born from mankind's darker personality traits. So yeah, both games borrow elements from the second entry. Persona 3 borrows a lot of it's ideas from Persona 1 as well.

[Forsaken Lover]

I can't believe they've already killed off Sudou again. I remember when I first played Innocent Sin i seriously didn't think he died on the blimp. It felt so anticlimactic. Well, it's even worse this time around. What the hell game. He had a great voice, too.

It was nice that an OP Tatsuya joined the party for a bit, I guess but I'm still not happy.

On the other hand, I'm relieved the Sky Museum was so much easier this time. Unless I just left some kids to die, the last floor, the one with demons on it, had a couple different sets of children to rescue in IS. Here, I just saved one and it let me go up the stairs.


Of course I told that cheating piece of garbage that Ulala wasn't a bad person. What kind of monster would agree with hi??

Tony: I'm a smuggler in a Sicilian Mafia. By the way, what's a "Sicilian Mafia?" I don't know but that's what I am.

If any quote could encapsulate how insane Sumaru City is, it's this one.

So I haven't even been bothering leveling up Maya's Strength. I made Tatsuya good at pretty much everything but with Maya I figure leveling up Strength is a waste of time. I am giving her Vitality though. She won't be as squishy as in IS.

Weren't Spell/Skill Cards not even in the original versions of P3 and P4 but later additions to P4G and P3P? Yet here they are, all he way back in Eternal Punishment. What nitwit decided to get rid of them? I love having these. The gameplay really is so much better in EP it's quite startling.


Playing through P2 is kinda like playing through a more repetitive and dull Final Fantasy III where you get a neww Job/Persona and just spend forever grinding it back up to the level of your previous Job/Persona. I'm just grateful EP is a lot faster than IS was and I've already found Personas with Trafuri and Estoma.

Shit there's a lot more to do in this game than there was in IS. I just got "Ellen" in my party and I can fill out maps and get stuff for that. That is awesome and something I see no problem doing. But there's also collecting materials to make new equipment and the Jewelry place sells a ton of very expensive stuff that I have no idea what it could be used for. Also I can try to locate people for the one lady. That seems really boring though so I dunno if I'll ever do that.

Well I love Ellen and I just got done with Sumaru TV. Plot is interesting now and I assume that was the Persona 1 MC being imitated by the Shiki Cat. But you knowk, none of that matters because I'm fucking pissed off. I spent hours in that shit hole trying to complete the map. I went back and re fought the boss after combing over every floor a second time. Still not complete, still no Card. Fuck. You.

Gameplay really does ruin the plot of video games. Maybe I should just play Persona 1. Ellie is ny new fave character anyway.

[Fynn]

Now that you said Ulala is a good person, you can actually get Maia to mutate into Maia Custom! It's not as easy as in IS though and you actually have to try and trigger a mutation this time around. But Maia CUstom is decent enough. Would recommend.

So you've kind of outrun me but that's fine since I won't be able to play as often as I did for a while. I went the Nanjo route though. As much as I like Elly, I felt a much greater connection with Nanjo in my P1 run and felt his cameo in IS was much too small compared to Elly's prety crucial role in the plot. The LAboratory is... pretty interesting, to say the least.

[Forsaken Lover]

See, that's kinda what I was talking about when I played IS. There's no real way to tell what effect some of your decisions will have. How in the world was I supposed to know that being nice to Ulala was how you trigger a mutation in Maya's original Persona? That's kind of annoying. Still, good to know. Thank you.

But yeah, I was told to go with Ellie because I like Ulala. I dunno why but it was strongly recommended to me by multiple people. I don't really care for Nanjo from what I've seen but maybe I'll warm up to him when I play P1.

And thanks again for the tip.

[Fynn]

Idk, to me all the choices were logical.

Ginko, Eikichi and Maya - all three were dealing with issues and they had the opportunity to overcome them on their own. In their cases, the right choices were the ones where you decied to trust them and let them take that opportunity to grow.

Yukino - she wasn't making a conscious choice to face her problem. She was shaken with grief. Like Wolf said before, breaking down like that goes against everything Yukino stands for. SO you give her the same kind of pep talk she would give you, because that's the attitude she values. Your "get a grip on yourself" at that moment gives her the strength to move on.

Ulala - a sleazy-ass dude is trying to absolve himself of his sins by putting all the blame on Ulala, who really only did the thing because she didnt know any better and even though part of that was her actual resentment speaking, overall she really loves Maya and wouldnt want to hurt her. Not only does she need to hear words of enocuragement at this moment since she's kinda hating herself already, the dude can't think he can just shift the blame like that. Ulala calling the Joker wasn't cool. But him trying to make himself look good by comparison despite the stuff he's done is just disgusting. Which is why the right choice is to tell him to shut up because Ulala is a good person.

BTW, I doubt you'd like Nanjo, since he's of the "lovable asshole" type :p

[Forsaken Lover]

I disagree with that first bit about the characters in IS but I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the effect of your choices. As I said, how on Earth would you know that saying this thing to Ulala will make Maia's Persona Mutate?

[Fynn]

I think it's really just kind of a secret reward for being a decent person.

It's the only mid-upgrade in the game, though. So don't worry.

[Forsaken Lover]

I always try to get at least 3 new Personas before a new dungeon as not only a means of security (more offense and defense options can never hurt) but as a way to make the horrible dungeons less tedious. But, really, thank fucking God Persona 3 and onward made it so only you get new Personas. Having to get everyone new Personas and having to Rank each of them up is just...ugh.

Also did you ever notice how the Personas are built weird? Personas with way higher Strength will have no physical skills or mostly have magical skills. They really are just fucking with you.

This game is very nice to you with Megido. First on Pixie and then on Agripa. There's really no reason not to spam it too since, while exploiting enemy weaknesses is good, it hits everyone for really good damage. Unlike the later games where Almighty attacks really aren't always the best because you have Boost or Amp actually making elemental spells stronger, here Almighty spells reign supreme. And there are A TON of them. I'm glad P3 and onward simplified it. You just need the Megi spells and that's it.


The game also really wants you to use weapons. It put so much effort into making weapons unique with various effects or critical rates but why would you ever use anything but Persona abilities?

Spoilering the rest of this for Fynn's sake...


Just completed Smile...again. You know, P2's dungeons are even better the second time you play through them in short order. Poor Ginji, though. He never can catch a break whatever the reality. On the bright side, I actually completed this map and got a pretty bitchin' reward for it so that made me happy.

Also had a nice moment with Katsuya and his old police chief who is now dead. Sumaru City is a flying spaceship in this reality too. How neat. But I kinda get the feeling at least some of what he was saying will turn out to be bunk. Why would such a low level flunky know the full plan? Also they still haven't really established why only certain people are being gathered. Our heroes frequently ponder this and it is one of the more intriguing mysteries in the otherwise rather generic "destroy the world" plot.

[Forsaken Lover]

Ellie: Don't positive people claim that good people an accentuate their abilities? Hmm, I still don't understand this country....


I have no idea what this could mean.


Also I was looking at Reddit and dummy me I glanced at the thread about hardest SMT bosses. I thought it would be hardest SMT bosses but it included Pesona talk, too.
I fight Philemon? And Maya? The smurf? I guess these are spoilers but hell if I understand how they'll work. I guess I'll have to wait and see.



Maya's gonna drive a boat? The music kicked in and everything! I'm so exci-

Ulala: Oh no you don't!

-music abruptly cuts off-


....oh poopy.


Filling out the maps is tedious nearly beyond endurance but the rewards are un-smurfing-believable, to quote Christopher Walken. It's worth the pain.


What was even the point of this Guido guy being around?


And thee goes Ellie...NOOOOOO. This Tatsuya is no proper replacement. On the bright side though I now have access to more Personas than I know what to do with. I also have so many amazing Cards from killing brain cells by completing all these maps.




I wonder if the next dungeon is the final one. Kinda eager to see this thing wrap up.

[Fynn]

Guido is actually Takahisa Kandori, the main villain from P1.

[Forsaken Lover]

Guido is actually Takahisa Kandori, the main villain from P1.

I gathered that from what they said but I still don't understand his purpose in this game.

[Fynn]

I still don't know either, but I haven't had a chance to play since the weekend. But I heard Nanjo's route deals with him more.

[Wolf Kanno]

Kandori exists for Nanjou's route mostly but he does appear in Elly and the Jpan only Tatsuya episode in the PSP version. Nyalarthotep was actually his Persona in Persona 1, and it's heavily implied that he was actually goading him into doing everything effectively making him the villain of the first two entries in the series. He's more of a treat for P1 fans to be honest but he actually gets some good characterization in the sequel.

Yes, Philemon is the first Super Boss in the series and starts the whole "battle a good guy associated with the Velvet Room" schlick the series has going for it. He also has a counter if you try to cheat and beat him with Armegeddon like Elizabeth and Margaret.

[Forsaken Lover]

I wonder if this has any meaning but I am like 90% positive one of Chizuru's battle quotes is the same thing a Rangda will say in Nocturne. I can only vaguely guess at how to write it... "Ooh dobla keem!" is how it sounds to me.

The hardest boss fight all game has been by far the "Metal Trio", due solely to Metal Jun's move that puts all sorts of status effects on the entire party. The worst of it though was that Question status effect that makes you do...whatever. It's like the Joker status effect ie. total bullshit. Point is, when my entire party is suddenly Furious or Sleep or Question mark, you lose.

I won on my fourth or so attempt when Jun didn't even use the move before I killed him.


So I was kind of afraid Torifune was the end of the game. I completed the map for the place and was like "I'll feel really stupid if I went through all that and didn't even use any of the great cards I got." Namely, I have two Megidolaeon cards and decided I should at least use one of them just in case this was the end. I put it on Isis, the Persona with the strongest magic stat I have. But now it's looking like there will be a bit more and I'm wondering just how strong I'll get.

Ever since they became available I've been eyeing those Mu Continent Personas. I have 2.5 million Yen and I'm looking especially hard at Satan but 50,000 Coins... Plus I did buy the other Personas (and then immediately reloaded) just to try and check them out but Laksmi is Level 71 and the Eye Patch one is 81 (IIRC) so I guess Satan is 91. Now I have no idea how Persona levels work in this game because I'm never as high a level as they are when I first summon them but I still need to be in the ballpark. MAYBE I'll get to Level 71 Laksmi but Level 81, let alone 91??! No effin' way, not in this game. I still remember how tedious level grinding in Nocturne was and that was a game with a good battle system. The problem was that enemies peaked at such a relatively low level that if you wanted Metatron or the other high-90s Demons, you were forced to fight nothing fights for eternity in the Fifth Kalpa or at the top of the final dungeon, gaining a pathetic amount of EXP for a long, long time. But the point is, that game was actually fun. Can you imagine level grinding to the 90s with P2's battle system? Just shoot me now. It still be less painful and terrifying.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't know, I didn't really have a hard time doing it for Innocent Sin, I ran a Lucifer/Satan duo for that game. Honestly, I've never had much of a problem getting close to max levels in these games. Though in the case of the Personas, I think you only need to be within five levels of the persona to use it in P2.

Also, that boss is considered to be one of the hardest in the duology if not for the status effect, then also the instant kill spell they bring. There is another fight that's pretty bad, unless you get the Ancestral Personas, which most people will not get on a first playthrough without a guide, though thankfully, that boss isn't so much as difficult as incredible tedious. It's actually easier to go into the fight with things that reflect it's magic back at cause it's faster than your own damage output.

[Forsaken Lover]

I swear you and Fynn are the only people in existence who seem to actually like the P2 battle system. I mean, you have to like it a lot if you did that much grinding.

I can endure it but loving it? I comfortably finished IS at Level 60. You're telling me you ran around in Xibalba back and forth for hundreds of fights to gain 30 levels? I can't even begin to comprehend it.

[Wolf Kanno]

I swear you and Fynn are the only people in existence who seem to actually like the P2 battle system. I mean, you have to like it a lot if you did that much grinding.

I can endure it but loving it? I comfortably finished IS at Level 60. You're telling me you ran around in Xibalba back and forth for hundreds of fights to gain 30 levels? I can't even begin to comprehend it.

More like I spent that time leveling in the Abandoned Factory trying to get the Legendary Weapons and the material items needed for some of the more powerful Persona. Honestly, the games have enough side content that you can gain quite a bit of levels running those errands and not focus on leveling. Not to mention that if you abuse Nonr's Blink Fusion Spell (Skuld, Verdandi, and Urd required) you can get a chance to double your XP making this easier.

[Forsaken Lover]

I swear you and Fynn are the only people in existence who seem to actually like the P2 battle system. I mean, you have to like it a lot if you did that much grinding.

I can endure it but loving it? I comfortably finished IS at Level 60. You're telling me you ran around in Xibalba back and forth for hundreds of fights to gain 30 levels? I can't even begin to comprehend it.

More like I spent that time leveling in the Abandoned Factory trying to get the Legendary Weapons and the material items needed for some of the more powerful Persona. Honestly, the games have enough side content that you can gain quite a bit of levels running those errands and not focus on leveling. Not to mention that if you abuse Nonr's Blink Fusion Spell (Skuld, Verdandi, and Urd required) you can get a chance to double your XP making this easier.

So was ther more to that Abandoned Factory than the one room? I looked around for a few minutes but then left because I saw no point except it was the one area they didn't close off. Figured it was for mild card grinding purposes.

And weapons are worthless in these games, I don't even know why they exist. This Jewelry dude in EP wanted me to craft stuff for 1,000,000 Yen or whatever and I was like nope because it's a waste of money. I am using whatever weapons they started with or found and I haven't bought a single piece of armor all game.

Armor was at least useful in IS but weapons have always been pointless.

So you actually enjoy this this brain-melting tedium and repetitiveness?

[Forsaken Lover]

Back when I was talking about who you choose to be Tatsuya's love, Iread that he was in love with Maya. EP kinda really digs at that but Shadow Katsuya seems to confirm it because when it says Katsuya is in love with Maya, we see both Maya's and Tatsuya's faces as they look shocked. I never really got any sense all game that Katsuya loved her, though.

Also this Tatsuya sucks so who cares if he loves Maya or not.

I figured it out! I know why Nu Persona has done so much better than the old ones. Persona 3-5 didn't have anything like these dumb questions. I believed in Katsuya because why the hell wouldn't you. He is nothing if not loving and devoted to Tatsuya. But with Ulala, I got it "wrong" because I said Ulala ha dfound herself. After all, we did this trout 50 hours ago. She dealt with her Joker. But sticking up for my friend and telling the evil jackass disguised as her off is "wrong."


There are a million reasons to want to shoot Nyarly but his "he'll never be yours. HE'S MINE!" taunt was not one of them. Plus it's just kind of transparent that shooting is the wrong option. Even so, if his "prompt" had been almost anything else, I would have shot. But the jab they gave him is just...insultingly weak and I'll touch more on that when I finish the game and write my overall thoughts.



i do have to say, the final boss fight was refreshingly challenging.Thank God I kept Maya witH isis on all the time or else we'd be smurfed when he used that move that seals off everyone's Personas. That nearly stopped my heart, used up a Soma 'cuz we needed all oru SP refilled anyway and also I was kinda really worried. Really though, even with her physical weakness, as long as you keep Tetrakarn on her, the guy just kept killing himself with his big physical move. (the names of every attack go by way too fast for me to ever read them) Like, the only people whoever did damage against the boss were Maya, Tatsuya and Nyarly himself. Also it's a really cool touch they gave Tatsuya new dialogue for when he uses Apollo's Nova Cyther against Nyarly.

now...let's rap about EP. First and foremost, as a sequel to a game I deeply loved, I was pretty dramatically underwhelmed. Am I to take it that the Eternal Punishment world is the "real" one? Maybe even the one that the late Personas take place in?

Furthermore, is the "Innocent Sin" title supposed to refer to Tatsuya refusing to forget? I always thought it was about what the kids did to Maya. But really, the two titles only fit based on the sin being Tatsuya's.

Long before I ever played these games I was told by quite a few people tht Eternal Punishment was better. However, more recently I have encountered at least one or two people who echo my feelings that Innocent Sin needed no sequel. Eternal Punishment is a huge retread os a better game but with inferior characters and an inferior plot. The whole story of The Joker and In Laqetti and even the Nazis fit together better than this New World Order stuff. Like, what was supposed to be Chizuru's character? She and another non-character (Guido) are prime antagonists for this game. Tetsuzou is no better. They all might as well be that random general that became "immortal." (what was the point of that anyway?)

Basically EP wanted to recreate IS' tale of a town gone mad and swept up by "rumors" which lead to some sort of cult-y organization destroying everything. Only its cult was less interesting and detailed and thus the descent of Sumaru City doesn't feel as genuine. Also there's the fact we've been here, done this. They tried to insert a twist but the formula is the same. You can say this was intentional and I respond with "duh." It's still not good.

While we're on teh topic of artistic choices that just don't work, MC Tatsuya in Innocent Sin/Talking Maya vs. MC Maya/Talking Tatsuya. Clearly they wanted this to be this way for story purposes and it is indeed intriguing. The problem is none of the writing works at all. EP Tatsuya is deeply unlikable. If I had just played this game like people had to do back in the day, I'd wonder who the hell this egotistical, moody chump was.

However the real victim is Maya who has been transformed into some demure waif. While never as "rough" as Yukino, she was also not nearly as "girly" as Lisa. In EP, every time we see that picture of Maya with her hand to her mouth, I just want to scream. That expression is so weak and pitiful and screams "OH MY I'M A WOMAN AND THIS IS A DISTRESSING SITUATION!" I think this screenshot sums it up well:

https://i.imgur.com/eg5nigW.png

Nyarly has killed numerous people and ruined the lives of even more people than that. He wants to destroy every world he can. But in spite of all that, the thing that really will get Maya mad at him is that he is mean to Tatsuya. I guess she's supposed to be madly in love with him just like the Suou brothers are madly in love with her because she's A WOMAN. WOMAN WOMAN WOMAN WOMAN. And Tatsuya chose Lisa, you goddam chumps.


Now..let's be positive! Gameplay is 100% better than Innocent Sin. I liked the confrontations with the Shadows. I was more attached to Katsuya there than I was all game. Um...final boss fight was nice and intense. Oh and Ellie! Best character in this game.

So apparently to fight Philemon I would have to play through this game one more time at leas?T Hahahahahahaha But yeah, I am even struggling to come up with really memorable or good moments in the game... Oh I liked seeing Tatsuya Sudou again. "This Side" Sudou was influenced by Nyarly according to Tatsuya so I guess that's where people get the idea that the "voices" might have been nearly back in IS, too. Seems very probable. I'm okay with that. Still the best villain in the game. Nyarly went out like a punk after we beat his ass. Although...I guess the EP cast are better heroes since they actaully beat him. Bleh.

Current Persona Games Ranking:

Persona 4 Golden > P2: Innocent Sin [huge gap] > Persona 3 FES [mildly large gap] > P2: Eternal Punishment > Persona 5

edit:

Unrelated to everything I typed before, was looking at some YT videos of people playing Innocent SIN PSP. I played the PSX version but in the PSP clip I'm watching, they used Dashing Strike, a fusion spell with Lisa and Michelle that was multi-hit for over a thousand damage. I never unlocked anything like that when I played the games. Maybe it's in the original too but ijust never found it. Point is, damage always semed pretty limited in tehse games. This is EP talk but at 99 Tec with Makakaja'd Megidolaeon, I could only do 500-600. Doing over a thousand is mindboggling to me, especially since I always got the impression physical attacks were nerfed for you. My Wong Long for Katsuya only had a "medium" strength physical attack (Violent Rage).

Also there are Fusion spells that are basically the equivalent of Matarukaja and so-on. I wish I had found those, too.

[Wolf Kanno]

So was ther more to that Abandoned Factory than the one room? I looked around for a few minutes but then left because I saw no point except it was the one area they didn't close off. Figured it was for mild card grinding purposes.

And weapons are worthless in these games, I don't even know why they exist. This Jewelry dude in EP wanted me to craft stuff for 1,000,000 Yen or whatever and I was like nope because it's a waste of money. I am using whatever weapons they started with or found and I haven't bought a single piece of armor all game.

Armor was at least useful in IS but weapons have always been pointless.

So you actually enjoy this this brain-melting tedium and repetitiveness?

I don't consider it to be too repetitive since I'm building towards something like leveling new Personas or unlocking new Fusion Spells. I liked the customization options the game gave me and trying to build an optimal team, so I never really felt the system was tedious. It's helped that I also have the contact system to alleviate the boredom of constant battle and I like having the option to resolve conflict in other ways than knocking everyone out.

Yes, the Abandoned Factory is IS and the Bomb Shelter in EP have more to them. They are an optional dungeon that opens up as you play through the game, letting you have easy access to older demons for leveling or more likely,getting Tarot Cards from since the game makes most dungeons one time deals. Eventually you can start meeting Rumor Demons in these areas which are optional bosses you can acquire special material cards or items from. You can also spread the rumors to get the Legendary Weapons or get the special spells for certain demons. This is the only way to get some of the games better Personas. In EP, once you complete the game twice and seen both Eriko and Nanjo's scenarios, you can unlock the room where you can fight Philemon who is considered to be one of the hardest Optional Fights in the Persona series behind the original Elizabeth fight in Persona 3. He also starts the whole "I'll kill you if you try to cheese me with the ultimate Fusion Spell".

Congratulations on finishing up EP, glad you kind of liked it, now you only need to play P1 and some of the side games to complete the Persona series.

Officially, Maya doesn't love either of the Suou boys, and I honestly feel it's obvious Katsuya had a crush on Maya from his dialogue in-between story missions. Her connection to Tatsuya has more to do with the Deja Vu element of him. She feels connected to him but doesn't understand why because she doesn't really have her memories from the Other Side.

Yeah EP is technically the official timeline of Persona where the later games take place though it could be just as likely they take place in a third unknown timeline. Still, P3 makes some pretty clear references to being in the same world where characters from P1 and P2 still exist through the Trish Reports on TV. We know it can't take place in IS since the world pretty much ended in that one.

As for the villains, you get more info about them if you play both scenarios and keep your ears open to NPC dialogue. The Samurai Head is also a bit of a cultural thing, because Japan has several former samurai or warlords who have been deified and considered guardian spirits of parts of Japan, Masakado is probably the most infamous of these figures, so Sumaru is a reference to this type of thing which I always found to be kind of neat.

I never felt like EP was simply about "Rumors becoming reality making people go crazy" which is really more of the first game, this one is more about Deja Vu and the idea of their existing other worlds and other versions of you, which I found really intriguing. The Rumor element is played up in the first third of the game but once Tatusya gets more involved, you realize what's really going on and your party is simply trapped in a rerun that they need to avert before they repeat what happened in IS. I always felt it was a clever way of going about it and I enjoyed seeing the differences between both realities.

With that said, most people agree with you that Maya worked better when she talked and Tatsuya worked better when he didn't. It's like the most universal critique against EP the fans have. There are also lots of fans who prefer IS over EP, but it seems like EP gets more love because it has the older fan base. That's all changed since the series surge in popularity and IS finally getting a western release. It's a shame the PSP version of EP wasn't released over here, especially since it's extra content is way more interesting than IS. You basically have an alternate scenario where you get to play as Tatsuya and see what he was doing all the time he's offscreen and it fills in some more info about the plot and has incredibly deep Lovecraft references as most of his bosses involve fighting the rest of the Outer Gods.

Ellen/Eriko is indeed one of my favorite characters from Persona 1 and I loved her in EP as well. Her 100 Ghost Stories Contact with Ulala and Baofu is easily one of my favorite contacts in the series. I don't necessarily agree with the your feelings about the rest of the cast as I loved Baofu and Ulala. I generally love P2's cast far more than the casts of the other games since they better balance interesting character conflict with quirky personalities.

Honestly, getting those high damage spells isn't too hard, P2 kind of offsets Chrono Triggers issue with Dual/triple techs by giving them a significant boost in power making them more useful than just having everyone use their own spell. You're almost always better off using a fusion spell than old series standby spells like the Megiddo class spells. I mean it's not like you can't use them, but frankly I made it through the final dungeon of EP by spamming the hell out of Dragon Cross. I mean the Ultimate Persona in EP sacrifice better stats for more versatility in comparison to their IS counterparts. This is kind of what I mean about how I really enjoy the game's customization system. The later entries streamline things way too much for my taste.

[Fynn]

From what I heard, Tatsuya's scenario also deals with the creation of the Shadows we see in P3 and P4, so that'd be very interesting, if true. And they managed to bring back Satomi Tadashi for it so I really wonder how he handled tying up that particular inconsistency in the overarching lore

[Forsaken Lover]

I did like Ulala and Baofu at times but I think Ulala peaked far too early with her Joker. After that she's largely just Baofu's love interest or there for comedy.

Overall, I think a big reason I like 4 and Innocent Sin the most is because they are the ones that focus most on the bond between the heroes. EP's cast feels more like 3's - a group of people who might get along but aren't necessarily so close they are practically family.

Also:

When Philemon said we would save the world by removing the group's memories, I figured that meant we were retconning the game out of existence, not just creating a parallel world. That's the point - our heroes sacrifice their memories for a better world and to undo all the damage.

But the existence of two separate worlds, one where the world is still destroyed, negates the entire sacrifice. No one was saved, all you did was create a bunch of people to replace them.

[Wolf Kanno]

When Philemon said we would save the world by removing the group's memories, I figured that meant we were retconning the game out of existence, not just creating a parallel world. That's the point - our heroes sacrifice their memories for a better world and to undo all the damage.

But the existence of two separate worlds, one where the world is still destroyed, negates the entire sacrifice. No one was saved, all you did was create a bunch of people to replace them.

Philemon more or less rewound time before the events and placed the party in a time frame where IS didn't actually happen, thus creating a different timeline not too different from Zelda OoT where there is the timeline where Link becomes an adult and saves the world and one where he prevents the events from ever happening when he was a child.

I wouldn't say it really cheapened their sacrifice since they basically sacrificed their friendship to save the world by creating a new timeline. It's made more tragic when you realize Other Side Tatsuya had to sacrifice ever being with his friends again by returning to the Other Side to prevent Nyalarthotep from screwing with the new timeline since it's his own memories that allow the two alternate realities to merge in the first place. It's implied that his friends don't exist in the Other Side anymore so Tatsuya will be alone. The Lisa, Jun, and Eikichi in EP are very much the ones from IS whereas the Tatsuya of This Side is now an alternate one who really never did meet the others. This ending can be even more tragic if you allow the IS team to remember the Other Side though it also makes the final boss significantly more difficult.

Honestly, I feel like it was a clever and interesting premise, like Chrono Cross but slightly less preachy and a better cast and battle system.

[Forsaken Lover]

When Philemon said we would save the world by removing the group's memories, I figured that meant we were retconning the game out of existence, not just creating a parallel world. That's the point - our heroes sacrifice their memories for a better world and to undo all the damage.

But the existence of two separate worlds, one where the world is still destroyed, negates the entire sacrifice. No one was saved, all you did was create a bunch of people to replace them.

Philemon more or less rewound time before the events and placed the party in a time frame where IS didn't actually happen, thus creating a different timeline not too different from Zelda OoT where there is the timeline where Link becomes an adult and saves the world and one where he prevents the events from ever happening when he was a child.

I wouldn't say it really cheapened their sacrifice since they basically sacrificed their friendship to save the world by creating a new timeline. It's made more tragic when you realize Other Side Tatsuya had to sacrifice ever being with his friends again by returning to the Other Side to prevent Nyalarthotep from screwing with the new timeline since it's his own memories that allow the two alternate realities to merge in the first place. It's implied that his friends don't exist in the Other Side anymore so Tatsuya will be alone. The Lisa, Jun, and Eikichi in EP are very much the ones from IS whereas the Tatsuya of This Side is now an alternate one who really never did meet the others. This ending can be even more tragic if you allow the IS team to remember the Other Side though it also makes the final boss significantly more difficult.

Honestly, I feel like it was a clever and interesting premise, like Chrono Cross but slightly less preachy and a better cast and battle system.

How are you supposed to let them remember? I didn't even know that was an option. They kept telling me over and over again that they can't remember or else.

Also...are you serious right now? You think Persona 2 has a better battle system than anything, let alone Chrono Cross' quite good and involved system?

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But seriously, CC's combat system was one of its best features while P2's gameplay is the biggest reason no one will ever play it or enjoy it.

[Fynn]

Idk, I kinda agree. Chrono Cross' was kind of a slog, EP's is smooth and fun

[Forsaken Lover]

The Innate System and the field effect was an awesome feature. The different points going into attacks was neat. Assigning spells to different levels was intriguing. There was actaul strategy and layers to the combat.

Collecting hundreds of cards is not what I'd call smooth. It's the very definition of a slog.

EDIT:

Also I will say that the final boss fight in EP is fantastic and very satisfying. It helps they re-use the IS final boss theme. (IS had a way better soundtrack) Hearing Nyarl scream "SUCCUMB, SUCCUMB!" in impotent fury as we beat his ass, and then watching him whine afterward only for our heroes to lay the smackdown on him, is just so cathartic.

You know, the later gods all accepted their lose in good grace.

[Wolf Kanno]

The innate abilities don't quite have the strategic advantage one would think outside of making your character an easy target for bosses since they can dish out more hurt than normal enemies and their massive HP pools will easily allow them to shrug off whatever your character can do before the boss kills them, so it's actually more useful to the computer than you. Same with the area effect mechanic which is a neat concept, but too difficult to take real advantage of for the player. You're often better off just wasting magic spells to prevent the enemies from taking advantage cause when it comes down to it, your melee and skills are more useful than the actual elements are outside of healing and getting the true ending. I don't even want to go into how absolutely useless summons and time consuming summons are or how utterly underwhelming the Dual/triple techs systems in this game are.

CC's system kind of combines the worst aspects of VII's materia, FFTactics' Mages, and Xenogears combat systems together with pointless customization you'll never use because the whole system is designed to make magic as tedious as hell to use, especially when melee trumps everything. I load characters up with some low level healing and just crack heads with my party, and despite the large cast, only a few characters are actually worth using. Never really had much use for the mechanics and it honestly makes going through the game a chore for me.

P2 might have pointless melee, but I honestly feel like that's a good thing because too many RPGs go the other way so at least making fusion spells and Persona customization keeps you invested in all of the mechanics. Collecting cards isn't even all that tedious and I often enjoy chatting with demons. It's better than just endless grinding for the stuff.

[Forsaken Lover]

Fair enough, I just want to know how you're supposed to restore Eikichi's and Lisa's memories in EP. I never saw any option for anything like that.

[Forsaken Lover]

This is a little post I wrote elsewhere about the genius of Innocent Sin's plot:

We all know how things go down in RPGs. Ancient prophecies, bad omens, the end of the world is nigh, etc.. There's a whole oracle that sounds fittingly mystical and ominous. But P2 flips this all on its head because, while it does continue prophecies, omens and the end of the world, all of this is strictly the delusions of three people. The problem is that, because one of these people has magic powers and is also a terrorist, he starts to make others believe in his nonsense about Mayan Aliens and the city being the cover for an ancient UFO. Now, in this magic universe, rumors become real. As such, as panic grows, people start to believe this patently absurd nonsense. The rumors become real, Nazis invade to seize the UFO, and destroy the world.

It's such a...video game plot yet it is lampshaded to Hell. None of these things mattered or were real until people started to believe they mattered and were real. All this stuff is treated like total nonsense and a joke, because it is, but then it becomes terrifyingly real. My favorite part is when our heroes triumphantly confront the main villain and are like "we have the Quest Iems! You stand no chance now!" And his response is to...laugh in their faces and chuck the item to the ground like worthless trash. Because it is worthless trash. It means nothing. None of this has meant anything. It's all been a farce, a mockery of the kind of story that might be treated 100% straight in another game.

I dunno if I read too much into it but it really felt to me like teh game was basically a giant jab at other fantasy stories.

Innocent Sin is such a good game. I'm so glad I gave it another chance.

I think I'll try to do the same for P5 eventually. My problem there, much like with IS and FFVI, was that I kept looking squinty-eyed it, searching for its alleged genius. When nothing wowed me, I got impatient. When nothing astounded me, I got angry. Eventually I was just aggressively demanding the game to amaze me already. Because Persona 4 Golden actually did all those things. P4G is one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had in my life and I wanted that again with P5. When it didn't deliver, I got rather upset and maybe hyperbolic.

So, I'll give it sometime. God knows when but I'll replay it someday and probably not hate it quite as much. I doubt I'll ever love it as much as P4G, though. Or P2IS.

[Wolf Kanno]

Fair enough, I just want to know how you're supposed to restore Eikichi's and Lisa's memories in EP. I never saw any option for anything like that.

You have to make all of the wrong choices with the Shadow versions of the party that are holding them hostage. If you do so, Lisa, Jun, and Eikichi will wake up early and remember everything. This will change the stats and abilities of the final boss making him more difficult and will change their scene in the ending. There are actually variations of it if you only wake up just one or two of them and not all three. I can't remember exactly, but you may even be able to speak with them at the Araya Shrine if you leave the final dungeon but my memory is fuzzy about that one.

I can understand your feelings with P5, a similar thing happened to me with P4 after coming off of the fantastic P3.