FL Plays the Persona Series

[Forsaken Lover]

So I don't know what exactly it was seeing as I've been considering doing this fo ryears but I finally decided to start playing th ePersona series.
And I'm starting with 2 'cuz everyone says 1 sucks. I suppose part of the motivation was being reminded that of the JRPGs I've played, like 95% were Final Fantasy. I want to branch out some. Also I was reminded again of Persona 3 and 4 and all the endless adoration I saw for them years ago. I really want to see how they stack up for me.

But they are two games away. I am playing Innocent Sin now, just defeated Principal Hanya to try and fix this curse. Thoughts thus far:

1. This is the first modern Earth JRPG I've ever played. It's really weird that everyone has normal names and we're going to a (relatively) normal school. I can kinda dig it, though.

2. The Contact feature is fascinating, if frustrating. I don't quite get it. I think what you want is to get peak interest from the demons? So you should focus on that instead of the emotions part?

3. Related point, what do the Tarot Cards do? The exposition slime said they help our Personas?

4. Speaking of Hanya, was the fight with him supposed to take forever? We were only doing like 20-something damage at most. First boss and it took a long time so I was worried I was doing something wrong.

5. Speaking of long fights though, it took over an hour to get to any real combat. Kind of unexpected, most JRPGs don't drag that much. I don't mind seeing as this is all new and interesting but it might b ea real pain on replays.

6. So far I think my favorite character is Lisa. I suppose I'm just racist. Also her dad is kind off a weaboo or a sexist pig or both.

7. This game is very..."whacky." They have actually played the "womp womp womp waahhhhhhhhh" noise a couple times so far. (I'm trying to spell that out best I can, hope you know what I mean) I heard Eternal Punishment is much darker and this one is kinda kooky. It's certainly living up to that so far.

8.Only other thing I know about this game is that it has some twist like FFVIII? I just recall reading once that this game did "we all grew up together" better than FFVIII. At least I think so. Everyone does keep saying they "remember" Maya so seems possible.

Overall, it's very different from any other JRPG I've yet to play. Very promising and fun start.

P.S.

I promise to actually finish P2, 3 and 4. Stuff just came up with FFVI an Baldur's Gate. Nothing will stop me here! I must play these games and then ran tabout how they're not as good as everyone says!

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, it's almost traditional that the Persona entries start off a bit slower than other RPG series. MegaTen in general tends to build a bit slower than other entries.

Combat may have been slow due to the game being a bit bad about explaining Fusion Spells, casting certain moves in a specific order will create combination moves like Chrono Trigger's Dual/Triple tech system though in this game some moves can use up the whole team. The Fusion spells are based on basic moves all Personas have so don't worry about switching out Personas too much cause you can still potentially use the same Fusion Spells as long as the current personas you use have the correct abilities. One of the important things about this system that separates it from CT though is that turn order is important. It's not enough to have the required abilities to make the fusion happen, you also need to have the characters use the moves in the correct order. Luckily the game lets you select fusion moves directly once you've used them, but if you run into an issue where you can't get a certain fusion spell to work because it involves Eikichi (usually the slowest party member since he's the heavy) to use his move first, then you'll have to manually set him first and potentially let the enemies get their turns before you use your death bringing spell. It sounds more complicated than it really is.

For pointers, you should be able to use Towering Inferno, which requires a Water spell, Earth spell, and Fire spell in that specific order.

You should also know that there are some unique Fusion Spells that require very specific Personas like Ohm, which requires Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma all using their unique skills to do 999 damage to all enemies.

As for conversations, Excited is the best emotion since you can obtain Tarot Cards from demons, Happy will let you get an item/money/ask to leave or inflict them with happy status that makes them waste turns. Scared makes them run away, angry gives the enemy a free round to murder you. It is also possible to get all four emotions going at once. The key is to figure out the demons personality and choose the correct characters conversation skill to entice them. Depending on how you answer questions party members give you or due to plot elements, new styles of conversations which allow multiple party members to interact can be made. For instance, Eikichi will ask Tatsuya if he plays guitar and if you say yes, you'll unlock a dual conversation skill where Eikichi Sings while Tatsuya plays electric guitar.

Tarot Cards can be traded in at the Velvet Room to purchase new Personas. Every demon in the game is aligned with one of the 21 Arcana and so getting them excited will make them hand over the tarot cards of their Arcana, in addition you can also obtain Free Cards from them which the Demon Painter in the Velvet Room can change into any Tarot Arcana you want barring Fool and the Minor Arcana since Fool is special and the Minor Arcana can only be obtained through Mutation. The Free Cards are also important because some Arcana can't be obtained through conversation. Sun, Moon,. Emperor, and Empress can't be obtained normally.

You'll need to balance fighting and gaining cards to get stronger as you'll need lots of cards to get the best Personas but Personas are often unlocked by your party level so talking your way out of problems will keep you low level so find a balance that works for you.

Characters have Arcana Affinity, which means that the effectiveness (SP Cost) of a Persona is based on how good of an affinity a character has with them, it will also affect how quickly the Persona will level up. Some Persona, have poor affinity with everyone and some can only be used by specific characters.

Also a Persona levels up based on how often you use them but level even faster when you use Fusion Spells. It is also possible for Personas to experience Mutations which will either unlock a hidden move (every Persona has one) or some Personas can be transformed in the Velvet Room into a new Persona, this is the only way to Get Persona's of the Minor Arcana (Sword, Cup, Wands and Coin) which are pretty powerful and usually have Great Affinity with everyone.

Glad you're liking it so far. EP is just as kooky at times but certainly a bit darker in its themes and content.

[Formalhaut]

Never played the P2 duology myself, so I'll be looking forward to this! Persona is one of my favourite series, so I'll be glad to have someone else to discuss it with.

[Forsaken Lover]

Thanks a lot for all your help, WK. The game didn't explain Fusion at all.

Looking ahead though, should I just get P3 and 4 off PSN for my PS3? I don't have any handhelds but I hear there are like, 3 versions of Persona 3 and 2 versions of 4. The version on PS3 is "FES" which isn't as good as "P3P" or something?

And I don't know about Persona 4 Gold or wahtever but I don't think I can play that anyway. Is it a lot better than the original like how FES is a lot better than original Persona 3?

[Fynn]

FES is unarguably much better than the original P3, whilr P3P is favored by some and considered not as good as FES by others. The main thing it has going for it is the ability to play as a girl which significantly changes many aspects of the game.

As for P4 vs P4 Golden - P4 in general is much more polished than P3 was so the additions made to Golden, while still pretty fun, are not as necessary and gameplay-refining as the changes made to P3 FES. So yeah, if you have no handhelds, go with P3 FES and vanilla P4.

[Formalhaut]

Thanks a lot for all your help, WK. The game didn't explain Fusion at all.

Looking ahead though, should I just get P3 and 4 off PSN for my PS3? I don't have any handhelds but I hear there are like, 3 versions of Persona 3 and 2 versions of 4. The version on PS3 is "FES" which isn't as good as "P3P" or something?

And I don't know about Persona 4 Gold or wahtever but I don't think I can play that anyway. Is it a lot better than the original like how FES is a lot better than original Persona 3?

I can really only given you opinions on the versions I've played, which happen to be the most recent incarnations:

Persona 3 Portable: So basically, as opposed to the other two incarnations, it plays more like a visual novel. Cutscenes are done in a standard visual novel style, as opposed to before that had 3D cutscenes which played out before you. You cannot walk around either, so I guess it is fair to say it is menu based. The combat has been tweaked closer to Persona 4, which means that you can manually control your party members instead on relying on A.I presets. Tartarus is made easier (and a bit shorter) because you no longer have to worry so much about your party's stamina.

The biggest change though is introducing a female protagonist path. Before, it was male only. P3P adds a female path and having played both, it is written better (they probably had time to refine their original writing). There are differences in social links and romance, which is great because the male path really mucks up links with females.

I think it also introduces the 'Desert of Doors' sidequest, which is nice, and ties in a character from P4.

There are other minor changes, but they're the main things. What might stop you getting P3P is the dramatic shift to a menu base as opposed to 'walking around'. If you're fine with that, P3P is the best option. If you're not, then probably FES.

Persona 4 Golden: It adds two social links, and with it, two arcanas: Aeon (which appears in P3P), and the new Jester arcana. It adds new difficulty levels, and other additions to the flow of battle and new exploration options, chief among them is being able to hop on your scooter and travel to places.

Noticeable changes are new English VAs for Chie and Teddie. This isn't a big deal, but if you've played original P4 before, it can be a bit of shock. Thankfully, Golden is the only one I've played. Beyond that, there's new music tracks, additional dialogue, and Winter is expanded upon, with January and a bit of February playable. Personally, it is better in every way. I know some people really dislike Marie, the new Aeon S.Link, but I don't find her that bad. I suppose you'll see.

[Fynn]

FES also contains an additional chapter that takes place after the game. Imo, it's a grindy mess that doesn't really have that good a story, even though a lot of people adore it for some reason, but it's worth a shot if you're into the game!

[Formalhaut]

FES also contains an additional chapter that takes place after the game. Imo, it's a grindy mess that doesn't really have that good a story, even though a lot of people adore it for some reason, but it's worth a shot if you're into the game!

Yeah, the Journey. I've never played FES, so I can't comment on it particularly!

[Fynn]

The Journey's your regular scenario. The new thing is called the Answer.

[Vyk]

Chie's voice actress....

[Wolf Kanno]

FES also contains an additional chapter that takes place after the game. Imo, it's a grindy mess that doesn't really have that good a story, even though a lot of people adore it for some reason, but it's worth a shot if you're into the game!

70649

Hush you, The Answer isn't that bad. Yes it's more Dungeon Crawler (since it wipes out the element that made P3 interesting such as Social Links and the Calendar system) but it makes sense in context why. The plot itself isn't that bad and actually does a pretty decent job of addressing the aftermath of something like P3, which I found to be quite refreshing.

Honestly FES is the way to go for P3. It was too weird for me to deal with the Visual Novel UI after playing both P3 and FES on the PS2. Also FES added in all of the cool features like Nihil Weapons, an extra Social Link that doesn't feel quite as tacked on like the new ones in P4 Golden, character costumes, and it actually gave you a reward for completing all the social links in one cycle (and thankfully made it much easier to do so than the original) along with a bunch of other extras from the original.

The Answer is also a fun little Epilogue that deals with the aftermath of P3's story and gives some more backstory to the cast. It also has one of the most badass battle themes in the series.

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With that said, the FemMC route from P3P is pretty awesome as well and the best selling point for P3P, but I would also point out that a lot of what makes it so cool is a bit lost on people who may not have played the original because there are a bunch of subtle elements that work best when you compare/contrast the two stories. With all that said, P3 was designed as a console game first and I still feel the PSP version doesn't quite do it justice.

I never bothered with Golden, largely because I couldn't justify getting a Vita, and even this late in its life cycle, I still feel like I made the right choice. I have read up on some of the changes and while I like some of the gameplay changes (you mean I can make Naoto useful now?) like Fynn pointed out, it's not quite the gameplay/story leap from P3 to FES from its original. It's not a bad game either but I feel you are fine playing the original.

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[Skyblade]

FES also contains an additional chapter that takes place after the game. Imo, it's a grindy mess that doesn't really have that good a story, even though a lot of people adore it for some reason, but it's worth a shot if you're into the game!

70649

Hush you, The Answer isn't that bad. Yes it's more Dungeon Crawler (since it wipes out the element that made P3 interesting such as Social Links and the Calendar system) but it makes sense in context why.

Eh, no, it really doesn't. It really, really doesn't.

The friends who save the world together, who have been through so much trout together, lost friends, become allies, saw each other's innermost weaknesses... These people all suddenly act completely out of character and become total assholes towards each other, start to fight over a brand new magical macguffin to the point that the world is in danger of fragmenting over temporal distortions. No, no it doesn't make sense. It's poorly written, poorly implemented, lacks a lot of what made the original great, and really doesn't fit with the character growth that we see of the team throughout Persona 3.

Literally the only good things about it were the fact that it stars Aigis, and the revelation of Minato's actual Answer at the very end of the chapter.

Everything else is terrible.

[Fynn]

Agree with Skyblade. The story is basically a step by step guide on how to write forced, implausible conflict.

Still, if you get FES, you should play it just to have an opinion of your own on it

[Formalhaut]

Having *watched* The Answer (NOT The Journey, ugh, silly Formy), the best I can say to justify it is how the team kinda falls apart from the death of Minato/MC and the hole he leaves in the group. So you can see it as going through the stages of grief, and the character conflicts springing up because of that.

I do agree though, they could write it better. But I can see where Kanno is coming from, and The Answer definitely isn't a useless addition. I suppose when you play it yourself, FL, you'll be able to decide for yourself.

Honestly, having thought about it some more, FES isn't a bad shout. I've never played it, but it does retain the console vibe that P3P does not. I was okay going into P3P, but the different interface is jolting.

Persona 4 vs Golden? I'd still say Golden, as it adds a truckload of content and the game looks much fresher. Marie is unpopular, but if you find her annoying, just skip through the cutscenes or just avoid her completely. I agree with Kanno: it really shouldn't be on a Vita because it would lose the console feel on the small screen, but you can just avoid that by purchasing a PS TV for dirt cheap (and they are cheap) and play it on the big screen. That's literally the main reason why I purchased a PS TV - just to play Golden.

And I will disagree about the size of the leap between P4 and P4G. Story wise, P4 ends at the end of December, then leaps to March for the final day. P4G extends playability and cutscenes across January and half of February. And throughout the game there are new cutscenes that doesn't exist in P4. P4G isn't essential like FES or P3P was to P3, but honestly I don't think I could play P4 having played the updated version.

[Skyblade]

Having *watched* The Answer (NOT The Journey, ugh, silly Formy), the best I can say to justify it is how the team kinda falls apart from the death of Minato/MC and the hole he leaves in the group. So you can see it as going through the stages of grief, and the character conflicts springing up because of that.

I do agree though, they could write it better. But I can see where Kanno is coming from, and The Answer definitely isn't a useless addition. I suppose when you play it yourself, FL, you'll be able to decide for yourself.

Honestly, having thought about it some more, FES isn't a bad shout. I've never played it, but it does retain the console vibe that P3P does not. I was okay going into P3P, but the different interface is jolting.

Persona 4 vs Golden? I'd still say Golden, as it adds a truckload of content and the game looks much fresher. Marie is unpopular, but if you find her annoying, just skip through the cutscenes or just avoid her completely. I agree with Kanno: it really shouldn't be on a Vita because it would lose the console feel on the small screen, but you can just avoid that by purchasing a PS TV for dirt cheap (and they are cheap) and play it on the big screen. That's literally the main reason why I purchased a PS TV - just to play Golden.

And I will disagree about the size of the leap between P4 and P4G. Story wise, P4 ends at the end of December, then leaps to March for the final day. P4G extends playability and cutscenes across January and half of February. And throughout the game there are new cutscenes that doesn't exist in P4. P4G isn't essential like FES or P3P was to P3, but honestly I don't think I could play P4 having played the updated version.

I actually got a Vita just for Persona 4 Golden, and I do not regret it. It really is the "definitive version". Unlike choosing between FES and P3P, you don't sacrifice anything by going with it (The Answer or Female Protagonist, respectively for the others). It just adds to the original experience. Graphically, in terms of story, in terms of writing, in terms of mechanics... It's just more goodness.

Get a PSTV if you need to for it. But play Golden. It's well worth it, by far the best way to experience Persona 4's world.

[Wolf Kanno]

FES also contains an additional chapter that takes place after the game. Imo, it's a grindy mess that doesn't really have that good a story, even though a lot of people adore it for some reason, but it's worth a shot if you're into the game!

70649

Hush you, The Answer isn't that bad. Yes it's more Dungeon Crawler (since it wipes out the element that made P3 interesting such as Social Links and the Calendar system) but it makes sense in context why.

Eh, no, it really doesn't. It really, really doesn't.

The friends who save the world together, who have been through so much trout together, lost friends, become allies, saw each other's innermost weaknesses... These people all suddenly act completely out of character and become total assholes towards each other, start to fight over a brand new magical macguffin to the point that the world is in danger of fragmenting over temporal distortions. No, no it doesn't make sense. It's poorly written, poorly implemented, lacks a lot of what made the original great, and really doesn't fit with the character growth that we see of the team throughout Persona 3.

Literally the only good things about it were the fact that it stars Aigis, and the revelation of Minato's actual Answer at the very end of the chapter.

Everything else is terrible.

While I can agree the handling could have been better, I disagree that it's the mess you make it out to be.

The only characters really acting irrational is Yukari and to a lesser extent, Aigis herself but since these two were the closest to the Protagonist in-game story, it makes sense they would have the most grief. The rest of the cast is pretty much uncertain about what to do except for Akihiko and Ken who happen to be better off since they are the ones who have had to deal with grief the most out of the whole cast, even in the Journey, these are the two who ultimately bounced back from the most devastating revelations and twists of the story first. Even Mitsuru's decision to stand by Yukari makes sense when you put into context how stubborn she usually is and how important promises are to her, even then, I would argue that she would have probably talked Yukari out of it had she won the conflict, but we'll never know since Aigis won.

We're also dealing with a group who until a few days before the story started, had lost their memories concerning the Dark Hour and had them returned, and now just lost the one person who held them together throughout all the hardships of the previous year; the anchor of the team that brought everyone together and now they have to learn to cope without. So emotions are raw and high, and in this grief stricken state, it makes sense the party wouldn't exactly be rational. Hell in the original game, the party would mope for weeks after Shinji's death, the betrayal, and the revelations of Ryoji, in all those cases the party knew they had time and often were making choices that reflected what they personally wanted to do such as continue the fight or finally call it quits. Here, as you said, the world is coming apart from temporal distortions, so time is not on their side and their actions wasn't about their personal stake but one that would affect the rest of the world. They had to make a decision soon in this state of grief, and they chose, for better of for worse. The only real conflict came from the two extremes of Akihiko and Yukari and Aigis simply chose to stop both of them before they did create irreparable damage to their groups friendship. Junpei's only conflict was that he seriously wanted to wait and think things through but the party didn't exactly have time to search their feelings, especially if Yukari or Akihiko started to aggressively attack the other groups for their items. Even when all was said, Aigis chose a fourth option which was to learn the truth of what really happened as opposed to change the future or let things be without knowing. Grief is hard to write, because we all want to think we could be rational, but here it was not.


Of anything, I feel the missed opportunity here was that the choice they made should have been left up to the player to see where they would have sided. Regardless, The Answer is still important to the series because P4 Arena confirms it is canon, whether you liked it or not, but I still feel it was an interesting place to take the series even if it was obvious the devs made it quickly and without the care the main game had.

Anyway, if we want to keep debating this, I'm fine with that but let's move this to another thread so as not to derail this thread, especially since we should really be talking about the awesomeness of Persona 2 right now. We can pick this up in another thread or later when FL crosses that bridge.

[Skyblade]

Well, my big question: Will Forsaken Lover be playing Persona 5 as well?

Only a couple more months until the Western release.

It already smashed the week one release of Persona 4 in Japan (seriously, like 150% of what P4 sold).

[Formalhaut]

Well, my big question: Will Forsaken Lover be playing Persona 5 as well?

Only a couple more months until the Western release.

It already smashed the week one release of Persona 4 in Japan (seriously, like 150% of what P4 sold).

Oh man oh man I'm so pumped. Don't mention it to me, I think I'll explode. And it's being released like, four days before my birthday!

But let's hold our horses and discuss Persona 2 while FL is still, you know, on the first P2 game. Actually, apparently several mechanics from P2 are making a comeback in P5, like negotiation and demons, as opposed to the shadows. I'm curious how difficult they are. In SMT IV, getting a demon on your side can be frustrating.

Actually how are you finding negotiation and contacting demons, FL?

[Forsaken Lover]

Well, my big question: Will Forsaken Lover be playing Persona 5 as well?

Only a couple more months until the Western release.

It already smashed the week one release of Persona 4 in Japan (seriously, like 150% of what P4 sold).

Oh man oh man I'm so pumped. Don't mention it to me, I think I'll explode. And it's being released like, four days before my birthday!

But let's hold our horses and discuss Persona 2 while FL is still, you know, on the first P2 game. Actually, apparently several mechanics from P2 are making a comeback in P5, like negotiation and demons, as opposed to the shadows. I'm curious how difficult they are. In SMT IV, getting a demon on your side can be frustrating.

Actually how are you finding negotiation and contacting demons, FL?

I find talking to demons very addicting. In fact, I was so fixated on figuring out each one of them that I kept forgetting to keep killing them too and some of them offered me contracts but then said I was too low level.

I thought about asking if demon negotiating was in the other games. I guess you answered it for me. That's kinda disappointing.

I haven't played much in the last couple days, I'm going out of town next month and am stressing over some stuff. I'll keep at the game though. I'll be sure to post next time I make some serious progress.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well, my big question: Will Forsaken Lover be playing Persona 5 as well?

Only a couple more months until the Western release.

It already smashed the week one release of Persona 4 in Japan (seriously, like 150% of what P4 sold).

I'm honestly more excited for P5 than I am FFXV at this point. Daybreakers was sweet and got me stoked for the main event. The game is stylish as fuck, and it looks like they finally fixed the uninspired dungeon design problem the series has been dealing with for awhile now.

FL - Yeah, making contracts with demons is how they'll start handing out Free Cards in addition to their normal cards and I can totally understand becoming addicted to it. It's a bit more robust in Eternal Punishment, but yeah, P3 and 4 drop the mechanic, but it looks like a very simplified version is coming back for P5.

[Fynn]

If you like the demon negotiation, FL, you might want to give the mainline SMT series a shot. It's a bit heavier in terms of plot and is not as character-focused, but there's always demon negotiation and I honestly always thought the way it's handled in Persona is pretty weak in comparison, I'm happy to see the negotiation system in P5 seems to be looking more in line with the main entries than the old Persona system.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'd say it varies from game to game really. Negotiations were not terribly useful in Nocturne for instance, and P2 Eternal Punishment did them the best within the Persona series since they focused more on the group dialogue options. My favorite set was one called a 100 Ghost Stories, which amusingly enough, is not just a name for show. There actually is a hundred different ghost stories the characters will tell and the results on demons is hilarious. I think I enjoyed them better in P2 because many of them were designed to really expand the characters and how their relationships. I mean where else can you watch a demon get confused as all hell while listening to two guys argue over Japanese baseball or watch two girls do a terrible stand up comedian act?

Then again...
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[Bright Shield]

You are right to be more excited for P5 Wolf. FFXV looks very iffy and I don't trust Square to deliver a compelling narrative any more. Persona 5 on the other hand is flat out excellent. Easily the best JRPG since the PS2 era. I won't officially judge it until the English release since my Japanese isn't that great, but it takes the best of P3 and mixes it with the best of P4. Add in the best dungeons in the entire MegaTen series, and you have a recipe for success.

Oh, and negotiation works like this. Once you knock every enemy down via hitting their weaknesses, you go into hold up mode. In this mode you can choose to demand items, money, ask them to become your demon, or execute an all out attack. Choose to make them your demon, and you have to answer a series of questions. Make the demon happy and they will join. Scare the demon and it will either join or run away. Piss the demon off and it will attack you, and the battle continues.

Be careful though, since demons can do this too. If your party gets knocked down, the demons will take one of your characters hostage. Failure in negotiation leads to the demons executing this character.

[Wolf Kanno]

You are right to be more excited for P5 Wolf. FFXV looks very iffy and I don't trust Square to deliver a compelling narrative any more. Persona 5 on the other hand is flat out excellent. Easily the best JRPG since the PS2 era. I won't officially judge it until the English release since my Japanese isn't that great, but it takes the best of P3 and mixes it with the best of P4. Add in the best dungeons in the entire MegaTen series, and you have a recipe for success.

Oh, and negotiation works like this. Once you knock every enemy down via hitting their weaknesses, you go into hold up mode. In this mode you can choose to demand items, money, ask them to become your demon, or execute an all out attack. Choose to make them your demon, and you have to answer a series of questions. Make the demon happy and they will join. Scare the demon and it will either join or run away. Piss the demon off and it will attack you, and the battle continues.

Be careful though, since demons can do this too. If your party gets knocked down, the demons will take one of your characters hostage. Failure in negotiation leads to the demons executing this character.

Okay, that's fucking awesome.

[Slothy]

That does sound awesome.

[Wolf Kanno]

So FL, any updates or has life taken over?

[Forsaken Lover]

I have not abandoned the thread, I promise! I was just away for a couple weeks at home with family who I haven't sen in years.

Right now I just got out of the Bomb Shelter. No idea how I did it.

I've also finally gotten Fusion Spells down so that's yay. I'll have to wait for the next boss or later dungeons but at present it seems like a very easy game. Quite frankly the most frustrating part are Contacting some of the demons. I mean, how the hell can it be both Cheerful and Angry?! How do you appeal to that?!

I can't really say much on story/characters except I'll hazard a guess the other Boy from Tatsuya's flashback is now The Joker. It was a really sweet scene. The talk with Maya that triggered it was nice, too. I only really like Lisa and Yukino at present so it was nice for these two to get some time to be emotional.

I do have to wonder two things:

1. Are these five the only playable characters all game?

2. How important are my decisions as Tatsuya? Right now the most significant things I can think of that I've done are say I want to go to college and I let Eikichi handle that being beaten to a pulp scene by himself. Because if shounen anime and manga has taught me anything, unreasonable pride is more important than helping your friends.

I wanted to wait until I got further to post but I figure I made you all feel like I abandoned you and that is not the case. It's just, tweo weeks away from the Internet, I have so much to catch up on just on my YouTube subscriptions alone.

[Wolf Kanno]

I do have to wonder two things:

1. Are these five the only playable characters all game?

No, there is more than just the five but I wouldn't get your hopes up.


2. How important are my decisions as Tatsuya? Right now the most significant things I can think of that I've done are say I want to go to college and I let Eikichi handle that being beaten to a pulp scene by himself. Because if shounen anime and manga has taught me anything, unreasonable pride is more important than helping your friends.


More than you would think, though most of them are only reflected in gameplay. The actual "face their problem" scenarios will eventually unlock the Prime Personas for Tatsuya, Maya, Lisa, and Eikichi. Tatsuya's requires you made all the right choices for the other three. These unlock upgraded versions of their starting personas with way better stats and abilities that are great mid-game additions while you're trying to level up to use their Ultimates; Yukina doesn't get a Prime persona but her scenario unlocks her Ultimate Persona . Some decisions come back later as well such as the questions you're homeroom teacher asks you at the game's beginning. There is also some decision (though not many) that will change the fate of a few story characters and some that will affect dungeons as well.

Story choices have a much greater impact in the first entry which had multiple endings and two story paths, course it was also a real bitch to figure out how to get the best ending from it as well and lord knows opening up the Snow Queen quest could feel really counter-intuitive.

[Forsaken Lover]

I still only have one Persona for everyone. That's normal, right for this point in teh game?

So there aren't multiple endings in this game?

I know one of the later Persona games has multiple endings. Some Let's Players I watch once talk about it. LP'er 1 asked his buddy if he got the real final boss and dungeon. LPer 2 said he fought a giant eye guy. That wasn't the REAL ending. To get said ending you gotta go meet your buddies and say something specific.

Sounds like a load of crap, by the way.

[Fynn]

Yeah, Persona 4 does this. Tbh, it kinda goes with the theme of the game, about reaching out to the truth and looking for it even if it looks like everything has already been resolved. But yeah, it's kinda hard to see how to get it without a guide. To be fair, though, Golden makes it much more clear that there is still something you can do, so the true ending feels less forced.

[Wolf Kanno]

I still only have one Persona for everyone. That's normal, right for this point in teh game?
You mean one persona each period or just have everyone using one persona? If it's the former, you should be be using the Velvet room to trade in Tarot Cards to purchase new Personas because the starters will become pretty obsolete after awhile.


So there aren't multiple endings in this game?
Yes, P2 is the only entry to not have multiple endings unless you count the fact it's technically two games. So yeah, you can't alter the games ending but it's possible to alter elements of the world and story with the Rumor system but don't expect any sever switches in the story.


I know one of the later Persona games has multiple endings. Some Let's Players I watch once talk about it. LP'er 1 asked his buddy if he got the real final boss and dungeon. LPer 2 said he fought a giant eye guy. That wasn't the REAL ending. To get said ending you gotta go meet your buddies and say something specific.

Sounds like a load of crap, by the way.

As Fynn noted, that's P4 which actually has three endings in the normal version and it gained another for the Golden release. While I get the whole "don't stop until you get the truth" element they were going for, I can't help but feel like the true ending path just feels a bit forced and more like ending fatigue to me. The fact it kind of borrows some thematic elements from the better P3 True ending kind of made it feel a bit unoriginal to me as well so it never set well for me personally. It doesn't help that the Normal ending felt more like the real climax of the story since it dealt with the main antagonist for the story whereas the True Ending feels more like the Persona version of Zemus/Cloud of Darkness.

[Fynn]

Ah yes. The P4 ending and The Answer are two elements of the Persona series that Wolf and I will likely never see eye to eye on ;)

[Formalhaut]

I actually like how P4:Golden handles the endgame content. Disagreements about Marie aside, it works for me.

[Forsaken Lover]

So I destroyed the second boss pretty easily. I don't think he was supposed to be too hard. I was lucky, Maya had just enough HP to survive but his attacks nearly killed her all the time. Maybe I need to get better at elemental protection? Is figuring out what element your Persona is strong or weak to important?

But the plot is moving along at last. You know there's progress when people show up and say a bunch of things that don't make sense. Maiyan Oracle? King Leo? Queen Scorpio? And Maya knows the King and Yukino knows Sorpio. Well, Scorpio is Anna but I don't think any of this has been explained, right? I know that if you do Family Talk with Maya to one of the enemies she mentions her dad so maybe Leo killed him?

Point is, I'm supposed to have no clue what's going on right now, correct?

Sorry, this is really slow going. I actually did all this a week or two ago now and I intended to do more but there's so much frickin' happening in the world. I want to pick up the game again but now I have no idea what to do.

Does anyone else know what my next move is? As I said, I just beat the Class President boss or whatever he was and then the Masquerade people showed up and I don't recall if the game gave me directions on where to go next.

[Wolf Kanno]

When in doubt about what to do next in Persona 2 (both of them) it's best to check back with any of the rumormongers you've met like the ones in Peace Diner and Honmaru Park. They will usually tell you rumors you can use at the detective agency to unlock the next story sections.

[Forsaken Lover]

So I have tried to be as fair as possible. I recognize that I've been really distracted by other things and not giving the game the attention it deserves. Even still, I was really attracted to the "style" of it because I've never played another JRPG quite like it.

But man, Persona 2: Innocent Sin is fucking boring, Nothing happens in this game, The Masquerade shows up! Yay, mysterious villains! What could their connection to our heroes be? What is Anna/Queen Scorpio's relationship with Yukino and who is King Leo and why does Maya seem to know him? Also The Joker is still out there being enigmatic.

So finally it looked like there was a plot...and then it's time for Lisa to be in a teen idol group. First arc villain was the school principal, second was a class president and now a music promoter. Oh but don't fear, every awful dungeon rewards you with wacky hijinks. (seriously, I just went through two dungeons for this dumb shit. About to head to this concert place) I can deal with awful dungeons if something cool comes out of it. Like, Babel Tower is literal torture but at least it ends with Shevat and Shevat is cool and a nice change in the story.

It feels like this game is 99% padding. I've been dragging my feet I admit because of the aforementioned distractions but I think at this point I've played a decent amount of the game and am free to judge it.

I'm not quitting or anything, I just haven't bought any other Persona games yet because this was a test case. And right now, it's failing miserably. I really hope none of the other games are so gratingly....uh...I dunno what to call it. Uneventful and uninteresting I guess.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

I've just recently tried to dive into the first game on PSP and personally, while it's interesting enough I can say that I'm a much bigger fan of P3 and P4. They're what really got me into the series. The early games don't have the social sim elements that really make the series interesting for me. I find the Persona fusion system becomes much more cool when it's combined with developing Social Links.
My advice would be to not give up on the series if P2 isn't grabbing you. I'd recommend giving P3 Portable a try or something, that's the first one I played and I got into it right away.

[Wolf Kanno]

Technically, you're not as far into P2 as you think you are, but if it isn't grabbing you, then there really isn't much to say really. This entry may not be your deal, and Persona (MegaTen in general) is more dungeon crawler than most JRPGs are, so if you're hating the dungeons, you may just want to stop because they are not going to get better for you, especially if the plot isn't doing anything for you to keep moving forward.

If you want to finish it, then go for it, but I would say it may be best to not force yourself to keep lunging through something you are not really enjoying. I had a similar issue with Valkyria Chronicles, just couldn't get into it, and I feel the harder I kept pushing myself to move forward in hopes of finding something to like, the more I began it dislike it.

[Fynn]

Oh yeah. The dungeons certainly don't let up. Enjoy the variety you have in P2 - in P3 it's all one long-ass dungeon that takes the entire game to beat

[Vincent, Thunder God]

Oh yeah. The dungeons certainly don't let up. Enjoy the variety you have in P2 - in P3 it's all one long-ass dungeon that takes the entire game to beat

True, but the game lets you choose when to make progress with the dungeon and when to focus on Social links or other stuff. I like the dynamic (especially in P3P, as you don't have to worry about fatigue in Tartarus) of just going there when you want to (compared to P4, where you have to get each dungeon done in a set time because of the weather and usually you want to get it done in one go/quickly to have as much time as possible for Social Links).

There's a lot more you can do in P3 and P4 other than just dungeon crawling, is what I'm trying to say. If you're not a huge dungeon fan, the setting, social sim elements and story are great in both games and more than make up for the dungeons (and personally I think Tartarus in P3 is quite fun).

[Fynn]

I enjoy Tartarus, personally, but I also really like dungeon crawling. I know people (I.e. my wife) who hated it and were incredibly fatigued by it by the endgame. For something that is supposed to be half of your enjoyable experience, having it be so tedious is a huge letdown to many who just came here for the story and social links.

[krissy]

Not to steal thread, but what's the best I've to start with. I have p3 on psn

[Del Murder]

I also just started P4G. Tartarus annoyed me with its repetition in P3P, is it the same thing in P4?

[Fynn]

Similar, but much less tedious. Dungeons are much more varied, shorter, and less randomly-generated

[Formalhaut]

Similar, but much less tedious. Dungeons are much more varied, shorter, and less randomly-generated

Yeah, my experience with the T.V world is much more preferable than Tartarus. Restoring your HP and SP is tougher however, at least until you gain the powers of the Fox, and even then, it can be expensive at first. Who is the fox? Well, you'll find out.

[Del Murder]

Similar, but much less tedious. Dungeons are much more varied, shorter, and less randomly-generated
You named everything I hated about the P3 dungeons so I should be in good shape.

[Fynn]

It's still pretty much the same format, though, just slightly refined. So don't expect it to suddenly be awesome. It'll probably just be a bit more tolerable.

[Del Murder]

I don't mind a good dungeon crawl but I need at least some kind of variety.

[Fynn]

Okay, well there's a bit more of that here, then

[Forsaken Lover]

Technically, you're not as far into P2 as you think you are, but if it isn't grabbing you, then there really isn't much to say really. This entry may not be your deal, and Persona (MegaTen in general) is more dungeon crawler than most JRPGs are, so if you're hating the dungeons, you may just want to stop because they are not going to get better for you, especially if the plot isn't doing anything for you to keep moving forward.

If you want to finish it, then go for it, but I would say it may be best to not force yourself to keep lunging through something you are not really enjoying. I had a similar issue with Valkyria Chronicles, just couldn't get into it, and I feel the harder I kept pushing myself to move forward in hopes of finding something to like, the more I began it dislike it.

I just...it's not like I haven't played a bad JRPG before. I beat Xenosaga Episode II and lord knows it has one of the most tedious battle systems ever. But, as you say, it might just be the plethora of samey dungeons.
They wear on me more than any other JRPG I've ever played. i gave it one more shot, finished rescuing Lisa and stuff, but I just feel so anti-motivated to play this game that I had to stop. I like the characters and it looks like the plot is finally going somewhere maybe but...."ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" is all I can say to the thought of playing this game anymore.

I get paid tomorrow. I'm just gonna get P3 off PSN.

That's me, Forsaken Lover, playing Persona 3 while the rest of the world plays Persona 5 and Final Fantasy XV. I have no idea why I have such an obsession with being five steps behind but oh well. I'm trusting you guys, everyone swears P3 and P4 are masterpieces.

Then again, I originally had Persona 2 recommended to me by a Xenogears fan so you can't trust anyone I guess.

[krissy]

we can play p3 together then
dont plan to get a ps4 until ps6 is out

question about fatigue:
how can i tell/end my tartarus romp before my peeps get tired
so that i can do it daily?

[Fynn]

Are you playing the PS2 or PSP version?

[krissy]

ps2

[Fynn]

Ugh. It's been ages since I played that version, and they really changed that mechanic on PSP. Maybe someone more qualified can answer.

[Slothy]

I honestly can't remember if there is any sort of warning before they're tired and ask to leave. I do know that at the start they can really only make it a handful of floors and by midway through they'll make it to the next boss floor with no issues. By the end of the game you'll easily go 20 floors or more without running out of stamina (of course the Tartarus blocks get a lot longer after the first two to make up for it). But honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about going every single night. Barring some event taking place that kept me from going for a bit I think I went every other day at most and got by just fine. I tried to make sure the main character was in great condition every time I went so I wouldn't get sick and lose valuable time recovering. And I found that was usually plenty. I had no real trouble finishing a block well before the full moon that way and never felt underleveled.

And there are a couple of social links that you can only access at night if I'm not mistaken so you're going to miss out on those if you go every night.

[Wolf Kanno]

Vivi22 mostly covered it, there isn't a real way to figure out when they'll be fatigued before they bring it up. I can tell you that their stamina is based on their levels and also you can cheat the system by splitting up your party since they usually only give you a heads up when you're all together. Even then, it's more important the MC doesn't get tired/sick as the others can be brought back fairly easy so I usually work them into the ground for a few days until I get what I need and then not bother with Tartarus until the next section opens.

[Slothy]

Something else I remembered the other day for managing stamina: don't let your party members die. It's less of a problem later on when you have all of your characters but if they die they'll almost certainly be tired the next day and possibly sick which takes them out for a few days. So even if you're not going everyday it can cause you some problems. They'll also be tired or sick after each full moon so best to give them a break immediately after anyway.

[Forsaken Lover]

We interupt this irregularly-scheduled Persona thread to bring you a strange journey.



A poster elsewhere encouraged me to play the SMT games and, smurf it, I need to play more JRPGs. What's more, I LOVE choices and alignments and all that kinda stuff. A WRPG this might not be but still, I've been promised I wouldn't be disappointed by the alignment system in the game I'm starting with so here we are.

I have elected to begin with Strange Journey.


I'm told these games are super hard and stuff. I am interested to see how quickly I get thrashed.

So, let's begin the journey.

Already this game is speaking my language. Of course I shook Gore's hand. What kind of soldier doesn't shake their superior officer's hand? I mean, it's basic courtesy one way or another and to not do it is the height of dickishness but this is the goddam military. I'm not a soldier IRL but you gotta figure, it's just not a smart career move to spit in the face of your "boss" like that. I also shook the nice Russian lady's hand. See? She gets it . With nice, polite soldiers like me, this is bound to go smoothly.

Ooh, these questions are interesting. Reminds me of the start of Fallout 3.

Question 1. I stay hidden. Why go out of my way to reveal myself when I'm already out of sight?

Question 2. I find a way to do both in regards to sneaking into an enemy base and avenging my friend. True, my first duty is to complete my mission and stay concealed but I also have a duty to my friend to see his killer punished.

Question 3. I stay as long as it takes during my "remote mission." Again, that's my duty. I can't just pack up and go home during a mission just because supplies are late.

Question 4. I hurry to rescue my ally with my helicopter. I mean, I was stumped on this one for a bit because if my helicopter runs out of fuel, it won't be much of a rescue. Then again, maybe once I eliminate the enemy and save my comrade, another helicopter can swoop in to evacuate us. That was my thinking anyway.

Question 5. I bring in the "religious leader" immediately. He might be a spy, why does this taking place in occupied territory matter?

Question 6. Uh...I guess yes this mission will succeed. I tried to pick I don't know.

So was judged to be a "physical" type or something. Is that good? Is there a type that is really hard or easy or something?

Okay I did refuse to shake the hand of the one guy who mocked me for being a Marine and said we're all probably just meat shields. I mean, he started the relationship off troutty, I'm under no obligation to play nice.

Oh no, who could have foreseen things going wrong! I said "I'm not afraid to die" to the panicking mooks. Should come with the territory of being a soldier I reckon.

Okay so I typed more but it got lost somehow. Goddammit. I'm on the second sector now.

1. Morax was a decent boss for being the first "powerful demon detected" and all that .I told him he had a point about how humans suck.

2. When will I notice my Alignment shifting? Does it take a while?

3. I have been using a team of myself and three set demons. Will I need to start making more use of my Pokemon in reserve? Like, this game is supposed to be really hard so will I need to have a huge roster of powerful demons for each occasion?

4. I told Mitra "God willed it" when he asked how humanity came to have dominion over the Earth. Why not? God exists in this universe so it's as good an answer as any. "I don't know" is the cheap way out "knowledge" is a decent answer but still leaves too many holes. And "evolution" is just kinda dumb. I mean, in a world where demons, magic and alternate universes/dimensions exist, evolution is kinda nothing.

Also I said I mattered most between me and my comrades. I mean, I got nothing against them and would fight and die for them but the fact of the matter is, I do love myself more than some semi-strangers. I think that's normal.


5. Speaking of demons, this game is making me want to restart P2: IS. I mean, that game had way better music. Also the conversation system was a bit more tedious but less dangerous.

Also what the heck is the difference between a Persona and a demon? The Persona was just another form of a demon in P2. Why do they get the "
"astral" or "spiritual" form of the demon but I get the whole demon?

6. I'm getting tired of Hudson. I'm glad I didn't shake his hand.


And that's the second world down. Mitra wasn't too hard at all. Oh sure he kept killing my main healer but see, being the genius that I am, I had just created Moh Shuvuu. She came with Garula, a Medium Wind attack and guess who is apparently weak to Wind? So between her and my Archangel, I won the fight while my PC spent the rest of the time fruitlessly trying to get Ubu up and running again. I think I'm just gonna let Ubu be a back-up healer, I fused my old Angel and some other monster to get a Hathor. So, having just found Horkos, my party looks like:

Level 20 PC with Slicer Knife, Caloric and Green Vest. No Accessories and I figure I need a better Gun by this point but I haven' tgotten the appropriate items to make one yet it seems....

Level 16 Archangel with Dream Fist and Fang Breaker. I probably need to make a newer, better physical attacker soon but he's done really good thus far....

Level 19 Moh Shuvuu with Garula, Dia, Life Drain, Spring of Life and Posumudi. My favorite creation so far. Honestly Mitra had nothing on Macabre because I had NOTHING to deal with Poison when that fight was sprung on me and so I kept dying again and again and again. So Moh here can take care of that and I also have some items to deal with it in future too. Maybe I should buy that Ring that protects me against Poison. Poison really is no joke in this game.

Level 15 Hathor. with Needle Assault, Media and Dia. I got screwed by having her learn Needle Assault instead of keeping her Wind attack but oh well.

Waiting in the Wings I have a Ubu, Shocker, Hura Po, Sidhe an Goblin. I figure I may want to fuse them with something else I'll find in this new place.

In terms of story, I am intrigued by all the mystery figures and the angel that came down to help me and Zelenin escape. So, are the Angels in my party not angels? Are they Demons too? Because the angel that saved me said I should hate demons.

Bugaboo just got eaten so Hudson just lost his only friend. Shame.

Of course I have absolutely no idea where any of this is going. Would it make more sense if I played previous SMT games?

Phew...that's my first 11 hours of the game in one post. I'm quite enjoying myself. It's just that story updates are few and far between since it seems gameplay is the main bulk of my, uh, gameplay. Still, I do want to know what the heck is going on, like if the leaders of humanity will have names and if I'll have to fight them. And who were those three jerks who sent me back when I kinda died? Questions, questions. But they will have to stew in the back of my brain while I wander these dungeons.

It's a bit hard to roleplay ya know but I figure, after two worlds of this crap, "I" am very sympathetic to Zelenin. Also that angel who saved our lives hated demons too so I figure hate demons is kinda the right way of things at the moment.

[Fynn]

My favorite SMT game! :hyper:

To answer your question on why you have demons instead of personas, the short answer is because you're in the Scheartzwelt where demons exist. The longer answer involves a lot of split timelines and let me just tell you that Persona's timeline is the most peaceful and demon-free. Also, no, Strange Journey is completely standalone.

You'll see a change in alignment when your name changes color. Up until a certain point it's not permanent, though. As with Personas, fuse demons instead of leveling them especially since here they won't learn new skills upon level. Use a lot of them and try out various combinations because the game gets insanely difficult near the end. You may not make it without abusing the password system, but that's what it's there for

[Wolf Kanno]

Persona are basically a spiritual/psychic avatar that exists within everyone and can be summoned under the right circumstances, they are loosely based off the Stands from JoJo's Bizarre Adventures if you've ever read/watched that series.

Demons are a bit of a misnomer since it implies a certain type of alignment in western culture, the term in Japanese is Yōma (妖魔)and it basically is a catch all term for monsters, demons, spirits and anything supernatural, so technically the angels you meet are the same deal as the other demons you face in terms of what they are. Course the angels consider themselves different, but the reality is that they are virtually the same. The big difference is that the angels are aligned with the Law and new God alignment whereas the Chaos alignment is considered the Old Gods. The Neutral route are generally minor deities.

You change alignment based on choices you make in the game, how often you fight demons of certain alignment and which demons you use in your party. There is a re-doable mini-quest you can unlock later in Sector Antila that allows you to shift your alignment as you want; though it can be very time consuming. Alignment is mostly important with the combat system since exploiting an enemy weakness will make any demon in your active party use a follow up attack that is unblockable. So it's best to roll with a team of the same alignment. Alignment will also eventually affect which quests you can take later and the last quarter of the game will be altered depending on which alignment you are when the alignment lock happens and your stuck with one of the three (technically four) endings.

The questionnaire you took will shift you towards one of the alignments, though I believe you always start neutral. It also determines your stat growth much like Kingdom Hearts, so Physical may mean you'll get more Strength boosts. I can't remember what mine was called but my answers gave me stat growth that favored my Vitality over everything else, which was super nice.

You'll definitely want to fuse better demons as you get higher levels. Make sure to not fuse demons until you've gotten them fully analyzed through battle, they will give you a Demon Source which can be used in fusion to get better skills on your demons. In fact some powerful demons you may fight as bosses only have their awesome skills shop up in the Demon Source instead of their natural skill set.

[Forsaken Lover]

So, Googling which game did alignment best, I found this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/comments/2uovle/best_representation_of_each_alignment/

I couldn't really read any of it. I just got enough to confirm wha twas already pretty obvious to me about who was rep'ing which side in SJ. It's gotten even clearer now what with Jimenez going on and on about power and wanting to be strong and blah blah blah. That and he's just kind of a rude asshole. I mean, Mastema saved our lives yet he's like "I CAN GET UP ON MY OWN!" when the nice angel offered him a hand.

The third Sector marked some real plot focus though, which is welcome. I feel like things are happening now instead of me just wandering around. I'm not sure what is up with this Louisa lady, gotta figure she's not all she appears given she can appear and disappear at will and maybe only I could see her. Also Gore went missing. Zombie Gore? Was he never dead to begin with? Mysterious, mysterious. Still don't know who those three jerks were chatting when I nearly died way back when all this started. I might not know that until the end.

Can you actually refuse Mastema's offer? Can you elect to not use the Horkos Buster? I imagine things must be pretty different if you can do that. But WHY would you refuse aid from someone who has already helped you? Mastema has been nothing but cool and he continues to be cool. You'd have to be an absolute idiot to refuse help when it's offered.

Speaking of Horkos though, hardest boss yet, mainly because I needed to update my party. Best defense is a good offense. I went and made a team with strong Electric attacks. Horkos loses to keep draining HP so you really gotta keep on the damage. When he was lecturing me about how humans create and create and whatever, I said we can also destroy because apparently he was trying to say humans just make a lot of crap. Well, we are also good at destroying crap.

I get that the demons are supposed to be like our antithesis but they're not so hot at their jobs.

Is there an origin for all of the demons in the SMT series? Is it internally consistent? Because SJ has kinda confused me on the exact relationship between humans and demons.

So I'm dejected. I wanted to do this EX Mission for this lady, finding this dude hanging out in Mitra's palace, but after searching the whole thing from top to bottom, nothing at all. I thought I was onto something when I used my upgraded Gate Seal thingy to get into this new room in Bootes. Sure enough, the new area led right to a small hallway of the palace. There's literally nothing else in it so it made sense this was where you'd meet the guy you're supposed to be after. But...nothing. I then thought I was being clever by waiting for New Moon. The quest giver said this guy is stealthy and likes shadow so taking the Moon stuff into account made sense, right? But still nothing. So I just wasted like an hour. Also feel like a moron.

And that's the fourth Sector down. I'm just failing EX Missions left and right. There are these two demons who want me to each bring them an item to kill the other. I never got either item. I'll head back and grind some for items and hopefully get the Spear so the one guy can kill the vampire.

Anyway, in story news, this game is super Humans Are The Real Monsters. That's fine though. I just wish people shit on this game like they do Chrono Cross. At least in CC it was the planet itself shiting on humanity so that makes sense. Here, it's a bunch of crazy monsters. I know they keep saying this...whatever, German-word, is the Earth's antibody for humanity but demons have been around in all the other games too so far as I know. They're just kinda jerks. I told Asura he was full of crap about how order has ruined everything in the human world. Also he was a really easy boss compared to Horkos. Maybe I'm just getting a bit better at the game. Protip: Lots of buffing and debuffing at the start of a fight is good. (I am a master gamer) Seriously though, my Makami was doing 200 with regular attacks. I thought magic al weaknesses and demon co-op was the best source of damage but not always.

But ya know, I just spent hours wandering around that "dark water maze" trying to get one goddam material for this new weapon that I was hoping was the Spear. But fuck it, I give up. I want to enjoy the game's story, not kill my brain with tedium for crap I don't even need.

And I would say that's Sector E down but nope. Luckily Arthur saved me. I was blithely moving along, continuing my new strategy of having an ever-changing roster of demons so I can keep farming Sources and then a random Demon NPC says I'm about to met Ouroboros. I've heard of him and that he's pretty hard and I was totally not prepared. But then we get called back because something is afoot in Sector C. Also I don't have the next level of gate seal thingy so we were stuck anyway.

But man, I think I'm gonna end this post by bringing it back to how it all began. If Hudson is the representative for Chaos in this game, no wonder I've heard this is the worst depiction of Chaos in the series. "THEY'RE DEAD, MAN! ABANDON THE GIGANTIC AND ITS POTENTIAL SURVIVORS SO WE CAN ALL RUN AWAY WITH OUR TAILS BETWEEN OUR LEGS!" There's something to be said about the charisma of a strongman and that being particularly potent in an escapist piece of fiction like an RPG which is all about empowerment. Naturally "you" think being strong is awesome and it's a short leap from that to "well, I'm strong and awesome so I'm better than weak people." If you have the right person nudging you along, so much the better. I've been in a SW mood of late so let's just say someone like Darth Bane does it better than Hudson here. Bane was a terrible piece of shit but you couldn't help but respect him, no matter how twisted his philosophy was. He preached power and the will to survive and he demonstrated both very well.

Hudson is just a bitch. Survival of the Fittest types might very well say to abandon the potential survivors as well but they wouldn't do it in such an openly craven way.

But yeah, this game can't be close to being over. I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen that Louisa lady again since her one scene forever ago.... And then there's everything else.

Also I gotta say, I've come around on the music. It was mainly the music in the first two sectors that put me off. Subsequent dungeon tunes have been very good and the battle music is excellent.

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I cannot help but compare it with Persona 2, my only other SMT game at this point.

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Strange Journey and Innocent Sin are very different games as is blatantly shown here by their wildly different boss themes. I always heard P1 and 2 were more "SMT" and it wasn't until 3 that the Persona series came into its own. But well, Innocent Sin is nothing like what I'm playing now.

I guess there's no alignment in Persona then?

[Wolf Kanno]

So, Googling which game did alignment best, I found this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/comments/2uovle/best_representation_of_each_alignment/

I couldn't really read any of it. I just got enough to confirm wha twas already pretty obvious to me about who was rep'ing which side in SJ. It's gotten even clearer now what with Jimenez going on and on about power and wanting to be strong and blah blah blah. That and he's just kind of a rude asshole. I mean, Mastema saved our lives yet he's like "I CAN GET UP ON MY OWN!" when the nice angel offered him a hand.

You poor sweet summer child who has never known a winter.


The third Sector marked some real plot focus though, which is welcome. I feel like things are happening now instead of me just wandering around. I'm not sure what is up with this Louisa lady, gotta figure she's not all she appears given she can appear and disappear at will and maybe only I could see her. Also Gore went missing. Zombie Gore? Was he never dead to begin with? Mysterious, mysterious. Still don't know who those three jerks were chatting when I nearly died way back when all this started. I might not know that until the end.

You'll learn slightly more about them if you continue on the Law path like you seem to be. Though their identity is more fan theory than fact...


Can you actually refuse Mastema's offer? Can you elect to not use the Horkos Buster? I imagine things must be pretty different if you can do that. But WHY would you refuse aid from someone who has already helped you? Mastema has been nothing but cool and he continues to be cool. You'd have to be an absolute idiot to refuse help when it's offered.

Well, unless you've played the rest of the series and know what Law's deal is. That or just look up the historical Mastema from Hebrew texts.


Speaking of Horkos though, hardest boss yet, mainly because I needed to update my party. Best defense is a good offense. I went and made a team with strong Electric attacks. Horkos loses to keep draining HP so you really gotta keep on the damage. When he was lecturing me about how humans create and create and whatever, I said we can also destroy because apparently he was trying to say humans just make a lot of crap. Well, we are also good at destroying crap.

Technically the first boss chastised humanity for being too good at destroying crap.



I get that the demons are supposed to be like our antithesis but they're not so hot at their jobs.

Is there an origin for all of the demons in the SMT series? Is it internally consistent? Because SJ has kinda confused me on the exact relationship between humans and demons.

Demons usually hail from a world called Makai but looking deeper into the nature of the series, demons are implied to be the creation of mankind itself. Our very belief in them gives them form and power. It's why the Old Gods of the Chaos side are trying to get humanity to believe in them again so they can be the rulers, and why YHHW and his angels are trying to prevent it because they represent the "new gods" and would thus lose their power if people began believing in older religions again.

Twice now in the series, it's been shown that one of the only options known to end the eternal struggle of Law vs. Chaos is to wipe out humanity and existence itself.



So I'm dejected. I wanted to do this EX Mission for this lady, finding this dude hanging out in Mitra's palace, but after searching the whole thing from top to bottom, nothing at all. I thought I was onto something when I used my upgraded Gate Seal thingy to get into this new room in Bootes. Sure enough, the new area led right to a small hallway of the palace. There's literally nothing else in it so it made sense this was where you'd meet the guy you're supposed to be after. But...nothing. I then thought I was being clever by waiting for New Moon. The quest giver said this guy is stealthy and likes shadow so taking the Moon stuff into account made sense, right? But still nothing. So I just wasted like an hour. Also feel like a moron.

Honestly, you see maybe half, at best. of most of the Sectors when you first enter them, as you get more exploration upgrades for the Demonica suit, you'll open up areas more easily. Also, some quests can only be completed later when you have access to later areas. If the quest is the one for Hariti looking for Pomegranate seeds, you need to head to the 5th floor of Mithra's dungeon and cross a damage floor. Use Enemy Search to find a Persephone and then talk to her to get the seeds. Return to the third floor where Hariti is during a full moon to get your reward.


And that's the fourth Sector down. I'm just failing EX Missions left and right. There are these two demons who want me to each bring them an item to kill the other. I never got either item. I'll head back and grind some for items and hopefully get the Spear so the one guy can kill the vampire.

It's possible to buy both of the weapons in the shop once you've updated it enough. You can also acquire the Hawthorn Spear by doing the Dwarf Blacksmith EX Mission in sector Carnia


Anyway, in story news, this game is super Humans Are The Real Monsters. That's fine though. I just wish people trout on this game like they do Chrono Cross. At least in CC it was the planet itself trouting on humanity so that makes sense. Here, it's a bunch of crazy monsters. I know they keep saying this...whatever, German-word, is the Earth's antibody for humanity but demons have been around in all the other games too so far as I know. They're just kinda jerks. I told Asura he was full of crap about how order has ruined everything in the human world. Also he was a really easy boss compared to Horkos. Maybe I'm just getting a bit better at the game. Protip: Lots of buffing and debuffing at the start of a fight is good. (I am a master gamer) Seriously though, my Makami was doing 200 with regular attacks. I thought magic al weaknesses and demon co-op was the best source of damage but not always.

MegaTen could be renamed "Humans are the Real Monsters" the Game. Even Persona can be pretty anvilicious about it. CC gets crapped on due to the tonal shift it has from CT, as well that the logical stretches it makes to try to create an argument for it. Again the fairy rescue mission in CC was kind of a dumb way to get to this point. The first four sectors of the game are demons interpretations of mankind's vices for wrath and envy, lust, gluttony, and finally sloth. The fact the crew mentions how similar many of the sectors are to what's been really happening in the normal world gives the impression that the planet has seen better days. Also, many of the demon bosses you face are actually ancient nature deities, so they certainly do represent the Planet's will.


But man, I think I'm gonna end this post by bringing it back to how it all began. If Hudson is the representative for Chaos in this game, no wonder I've heard this is the worst depiction of Chaos in the series. "THEY'RE DEAD, MAN! ABANDON THE GIGANTIC AND ITS POTENTIAL SURVIVORS SO WE CAN ALL RUN AWAY WITH OUR TAILS BETWEEN OUR LEGS!" There's something to be said about the charisma of a strongman and that being particularly potent in an escapist piece of fiction like an RPG which is all about empowerment. Naturally "you" think being strong is awesome and it's a short leap from that to "well, I'm strong and awesome so I'm better than weak people." If you have the right person nudging you along, so much the better. I've been in a SW mood of late so let's just say someone like Darth Bane does it better than Hudson here. Bane was a terrible piece of trout but you couldn't help but respect him, no matter how twisted his philosophy was. He preached power and the will to survive and he demonstrated both very well.

Hudson is just a bitch. Survival of the Fittest types might very well say to abandon the potential survivors as well but they wouldn't do it in such an openly craven way.

Jiminez is one of the better Chaos heroes actually, and he helps represent the hypocrisy of the alignment well. Chaos is not necessarily evil, so the Darth Bane allusion loses a bit of its meaning because they represent two different things, just as Law isn't exactly the nicest faction either. Jiminez certainly has his faults, but I liked that he's pretty nice to you if you side with him. Oddly enough Chaos heroes tend to have better loyalty than the Law Heroes do, though that loyalty is usually only for those they care about and Jiminez certainly exemplifies that quality. Course the very nature of Chaos is the freedom of choice so it makes sense they would still like you whether you side with them or not.


But yeah, this game can't be close to being over. I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen that Louisa lady again since her one scene forever ago.... And then there's everything else.
You are maybe a third of the way through the game I believe? Course the last stretch of the game's length varies on what alignment you are when the alignment lock happens. Neutral is traditionally the longest and hardest path, though in SJ's case, you're spared one of the more difficult non-final boss battles in the game if you go that route.

You will only really get to learn more about Louisa if you o the Chaos route I'm afraid.


Also I gotta say, I've come around on the music. It was mainly the music in the first two sectors that put me off. Subsequent dungeon tunes have been very good and the battle music is excellent.

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I cannot help but compare it with Persona 2, my only other SMT game at this point.

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Strange Journey and Innocent Sin are very different games as is blatantly shown here by their wildly different boss themes. I always heard P1 and 2 were more "SMT" and it wasn't until 3 that the Persona series came into its own. But well, Innocent Sin is nothing like what I'm playing now.

The MegaTen games usually have some stellar soundtracks, even the old SNES entries have some pretty stellar tracks.


I guess there's no alignment in Persona then?
Yeah, the alignment system is purely for the mainline entries and Devil Summoner series. Persona does have multiple endings usually barring the second entry.

[Fynn]

Heh, yeah. Good luck trusting any of the law guys. Though just as Jimenez is a really cool chaos hero, I also really liked Zelenin as a law representative, even if the dynamic between the two heroes worked better in SMT IV

[Wolf Kanno]

I think what I like the most about Zelenin was that you had a better understanding as to why she sided with Law, and that's something that she holds over most of the Law Heroes. Though the Law Heroes of SMTI and IV are still the most likable, same with the Chaos Heroes. Course Jiminez and Zelenin are heads and shoulder better than the assholes from Devil Survivor.

[Fynn]

Ugh


Don't remind me of that game.

[Forsaken Lover]

@Wolf

The "you'll learn more if you go Law/Chaos" is intriguing but daunting.
Are all the games like this? Sort of pieces of a puzzle and you only get the full picture if you do all the routes?

Seems like quite the investment. I like this game but I can't imagine playing it three times, at least not back-to-back which would be the most "complete" way to understand the plot or characters or whatever.


Also how do you know the demon bosses are old nature deities?

I know Chaos isn't "supposed' to be evil. It's the route of freedom. But the problem is, "without power, what future can you claim?" In a world where everyone can do whatever, only the strong survive. That does not promote empathy or morality. I don't think Jimenez is evil, he's just selfish and petty and that can easily be exploited to do evil.

Sure he seems to love Boo but he was also the first one who was like "let's get the hell outta here!" even as the other crewmen were like "dude, we can't just abandon potential survivors."

So maybe Chaos isn't evil but it seems entirely too small-minded, at least as represented by Jimenez.

Also I heard Devil Survivor, at least the 3DS remakes anyway, did the LNC morality thing really well. The Devil Summoner games for the PS2 and SMT3 don't have the typical moral system though and some like that.

But hey, this is a magical adventure I intend to experience and come to my own conclusions on what is best. I got a lot of game to go apparently and then several other games to beat as well.

Seems you are a pretty well-informed SMT fan, WK. Hope you can keep enlightening me. Just no spoilers!@@

Also on gameplay note, thank you for the EX Mission info. Shit seems so tedious but I bet it has good rewards so....

[Forsaken Lover]

"Equality is a lie. A myth to appease the masses. Simply look around and you will see the lie for what it is! There are those with power, those with the strength and will to lead. And there are those meant to follow – those incapable of anything but servitude and a meager, worthless existence."
~Darth Bane

[Wolf Kanno]

@Wolf

The "you'll learn more if you go Law/Chaos" is intriguing but daunting.
Are all the games like this? Sort of pieces of a puzzle and you only get the full picture if you do all the routes?

Seems like quite the investment. I like this game but I can't imagine playing it three times, at least not back-to-back which would be the most "complete" way to understand the plot or characters or whatever.

Yes that's how they usually work though some games are more worth the effort than others. I would say SJ is one where you may just want to work on one path and then read up on the other two because the amount of new content is not necessarily worth the aggravation of going through the game multiple times, unless you truly love the gameplay.


Also how do you know the demon bosses are old nature deities?
Nature might not have been the best term to use. They are mostly old gods, in fact three of the first four bosses are based on judge like deities who were later demonized by later religions. The first four bosses are all judges of some form with the exception of Asura which is a catch all term in Vedic and Hindu religion for the "old wild gods". The later bosses are all connected by having a mother figure element to them and all being deities that are associated with either the primordial world or truth.

All of the demons, monsters and angels are based off their real world counterparts to some extent, whether it's their design or very nature. A good knowledge of mythology and religion will actually help you out quite a bit in the series.


I know Chaos isn't "supposed' to be evil. It's the route of freedom. But the problem is, "without power, what future can you claim?" In a world where everyone can do whatever, only the strong survive. That does not promote empathy or morality. I don't think Jimenez is evil, he's just selfish and petty and that can easily be exploited to do evil.

Sure he seems to love Boo but he was also the first one who was like "let's get the hell outta here!" even as the other crewmen were like "dude, we can't just abandon potential survivors."

So maybe Chaos isn't evil but it seems entirely too small-minded, at least as represented by Jimenez.

That's pretty much the point actually, the series deals with the inherent problem of freedom versus order and it's why it's usually best to find a balanced middle ground as opposed to subscribing to one ideal over another. In time, you'll start to see the cracks in Law as well.


Also I heard Devil Survivor, at least the 3DS remakes anyway, did the LNC morality thing really well. The Devil Summoner games for the PS2 and SMT3 don't have the typical moral system though and some like that.

Maybe the second game does, but the first one actually has two sets of Law and Chaos heroes to go with the two neutral heroes your stuck with for most of the game. The issue is that in all three sets, one set of those heroes is awesome and fun and really help justify their factions, the other group are completely whiny or straight up assholes with little redeeming value and sadly it's the asshole group you're stuck with for most of the game. Of anything DS1 probably did a better job than any other entry I've played in making the Law faction actually likable and not the usual assholes we've come to known in the series.

Devil Summoner's alignment system is a bit odd because it's more subdued and functions more for gameplay than story depending on the entry. SMT3 utilizes a new system but it's pretty much the classic system just retooled a bit and examined a bit differently. The best way to describe the Reasons of SMT3 is that they are the absolute extremes of the basic Law/Neutral/Chaos dynamic but the allies to these forces have been switched around and the game kind of has a sly theme about how the Law and Chaos factions are really no different from each other.


But hey, this is a magical adventure I intend to experience and come to my own conclusions on what is best. I got a lot of game to go apparently and then several other games to beat as well.

Seems you are a pretty well-informed SMT fan, WK. Hope you can keep enlightening me. Just no spoilers!@@

Also on gameplay note, thank you for the EX Mission info. trout seems so tedious but I bet it has good rewards so....

You should just sit back and enjoy the ride. Strange Journey isn't exactly the entry I would have started with but it's one I did enjoy thoroughly. Though I should warn you that the later Sectors take of the kiddy gloves in terms of difficulty and frustration factor.

The EX missions certainly have their advantages, especially the way gear is more important in this game than other ones. You'll really start having fun when the alignment missions start to become more prominent and you can take more advantage of the alignment system since they tend to give you gear only Law/Chaos can use.

My big tip for you is to find a neutral weapon (I believe it's a gun) that inflicts Stone. You would be surprised how many enemies are vulnerable to that status effect and its basically an instant death spell in this game. Even when it starts to do crap for damage the Stone effect makes it a pretty invaluable tool for wiping out mobs of enemies with little drain on your resources.

[Forsaken Lover]

So you know what the worst part about video games is?
The game part.

Seriously, SJ could have the most enthralling story ever written in human history and I would be like "smurf it" because I just spent the last several hours on Ouroboros and am no closer to winning.

Level 45 with a party of strong demons. I apparently finally went Law so I can get a big old co-op fire attack on her. The problem is not damage - it's surviving. Random-ass status effects on the whole party, frequent spamming of some insta death move and then there's the damage she can deal, which is considerable and is all full-party based as well.

I blame myself more than the boss. For starters I've been operating a demon mill where I constantly switch in new demons after getting their Source and then immediately fuse the no longer useful demon into something new so I can get that demon's Source and so-on and so-on. Seemed to be a good strategy.
Not so much here. I need designer demons. Just making whatever is not a good way to win and it's no longer as simple as "boss is weak to element so give new demon Source with powerful elemental attack." I need, I dunno, the actual spell that protects against Curse/Expel. I have some Stones but they run out fast. There's also that one skill that powers up co-op attacks, that would be immensely useful. And most importantly, a strong magic demon with Recovery Amp and the Medium heal full party spell. I HAD a demon like that but cheerfully pissed her away for a new fusion. As I said, I am lying in a bed of my own making.

I did look up to see if I was under-leveled or whatever. Apparently somebody beat her at Level 42. Good for them. Although I see far too much talking about the first stage. The first stage is nothing. Sure she has regen but her attacks are trout. N Ow she can slap Bomb, Stone and Mute and Charm all on you at once.
Having only one character capable of using items is driving me crazier than ever. I'm definitely not used to that. I try to cure some status ailments with an item but then she unleashes her huge thunder move or maybe she just insta-kills us all. As I said, I think I need to just give up and go grind. Definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result. Well, I kinda did that for a long time now so I'm mad as a hatter. I just thought my damage output could save me....

So yeah, what story was there in this game? All I can think about are Sources and looking for what demons have what abilities. I gotta crunch some maths, not contemplate philosophical dilemmas.
Although I did tell Ouroboros I was siding with her enemy who "also has endless power." Made sense to me. I got a guardian angel on my side and presumably the big guy behind him so if she wants to boast about how strong demons are, I will say I have the support of something even stronger.



Oh I have plenty of money for summoning demons but she had those skills because I "crafted" her that way. They weren't her natural abilities. Although I believe her Source has Recovery Amp....
In any event, I just don't know how you're supposed to deal with waves of status effects in this game. That has been my real bane. Is there no way to defend against them for the demons themselves? I have a Ring to save me from Stone but the demons got trout. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and even if I had abilities to remedy all the status effects, that's still a few wasted turns.

EDIT:

But it figures, as soon as I post this, I win. Can you believe it was as simple as finding a monster with War Cry? Turns out when her attacks no longer are demolishing you, status effects are a bit easier to deal with.

I wonder if all the bosses are like this though. Buff yourself or debuff them more than 3 times and they will instantly reset everything.

[Fynn]

Yeah, buffing gets trickier later.

Good luck from here on out, though. Fornax may be a Breather Level after Eridanus, but it only gets worse from here on out. The final boss on the Neutral and Law path is just complete BS

[Wolf Kanno]

I was going to say, "welcome to MegaTen" cause it's always interesting when you reach a point and realize you have to get down and dirty and start building some customized units. It should tell you something that SJ debut the skill that inflicts heavy non-elemental group hitting damage that also lowers every stat. That's a skill you can get, and will want for obvious reasons.

Here's a tip since you should be leveled enough to start seeing these two. Make a Rangda and a Barong eventually and try to give them some really good skills. Perhaps not now, but take a note of it. It's a SMT Tradition that these two fused together will make an excellent end game demon, though you're far too under-leveled at this point to obtain him, so just keep it in mind when you reach the final sections of the game.

Fornax has one of my favorite EX Missions in it. Say high to Alice for me.

[Fynn]

Luster Candy is also your friend.

[Forsaken Lover]

Luster Candy is also your friend.

I just got it from a Lechesis Source not too long ago. I'm saving it for a rally hard boss.

So back to story.

Jack's Squad. I firmly believe there is nothing more powerful than a kind word and a nice smile. Jack wasn't "rude" in the strictest sense but at the same time, I read everything he said in the most patently insincere tone imaginable. Like, every time he said "I wanna be good neighbors" he might as well have said "smurf you, you little bitch" instead. I don't like him very much. I was sorely tempted to say I'd sooner trust the demons but that seemed a bit excessive right now. The demons have tried to kill me, all Jack has done is be a huge jerk which was exacerbated by his putting on this huge sham of not being a jerk.

Oh well. I went and did this stupid maze trout for him. Man it was confusing.

You guys know about me and Ouroboros already. Ugh.

Speaking of my alignment though, I turned Law when Ourobors boasted of having endless power. I said her opponent also has endless power. Makes sense to me - Mastema has helped me out a lot and God is apparently on my side so smurf you demons. I literally have friends in high places.

Then "Gore" came back and then he left again. I have no idea what's going on with him.

The three guys from way earlier are back, too. I thought maybe they were supposed to represent the alignments or something, ya know? Three guys, three alignments. One of them seemed nice enough back at the start. But nope, now they all trout on humans. I wanna know what their deal is already but I suspect it may be a while.

Wasn't Aleph the name of one of the SMT Protagonists? I seem to recall this being talked about on some forum I frequent... I think it was discussing who the strongest protagonist is from a story perspective. I might be mis-remembering, it's been a while and I obviously have no real insight into this matter.

Oh now, Jack's Squad are suddenly our enemies. Who could have foreseen this. Seriously though, one line by the mystery men about Arthur being a "ghost" is now seeming like it might mean something. For an emotionless AI thing, he's become very proactive and judgmental. I mean, I hate Jack's Squad as much as I'm surely supposed to but Arthur has been pretty clearly pushing us for a confrontation. About to storm their base to rescue Jimenez.

So the Alice and the Bunny thing was weird. The demons loved Alice the real girl but they remade her as a sadistic maniac? Also I stopped her from killing the rabbit. What monster would stand there and let her do it?!

And now I have killed the Boob Demon. Ever notice the Chaos demons are always really hideous or super sexy?

Seriously, Mother/Tiamat was pretty easy. My new Virtue with Mortal Jihad was doing more damage than exploiting her weakness and the subsequent co-op. I know people seem to talk about Debilitate a lot but my Revolver's Cripple move just kept chipping her defense until Jihad did like 220-240 a turn.

Back to plot. I just learned what you've been talking about, Wolf. About the demons being former nature spirits corrupted by humanity. Still, this seems like it might be something specific to this game. I dunno.

And "Gore" continues to be vague and weird. Is he related to Louisa? They both just show up randomly and confuse me.... I just want to know where the hell Mastema has been in the last forever.

So you might have noticed I skipped over Jimenaboo. I told him no way when he asked me to fuse him and Boo but the game made me anyway. So I want to take this opportunity to talk a bit about my understanding of Chaos so far. I likened it earlier to Sith Philosophy but I was told not to.Chaos is not supposed to be evil. It shares Sith traits like the idea that freedom is power and power is freedom but you can use that freedom to do good. But Jimenez is a jerk and selfish. He wouldn't have done all this for anyone or anything else. Chaos would seem to me to indicate he'd leave 99% of everyone else to die and have no problem with that. Plus, under such rules, what Jack's Squad was doing would be perfectly okay. Jimenez seemed to be all FOR THE DEMONS and WHAT ABOUT THE POOR DEMONS but it was a demon abusing Boo when we found him.

Also one of the options you can say to Ouroboros about her endless power is "I want that power." Well gee, I wonder what alignment that shifts you towards.


So what the hell is Chaos? Given it's supreme individualism, can it be anything? Jimenez is not going to think of it in the same way as some other character in some other game. Plus Even in this game, the demons have hierarchy and order and clearly willingly follow Tiamat. So...I dunno what to make of it all.

I look forward to beating the crap out of Jimenaboo when he inevitably goes crazy.

Oh and I let Jimenez kill Jack. I doubt it matters what you pick but I let the bastard get what was coming to him.

[Wolf Kanno]

Luster Candy is also your friend.

I just got it from a Lechesis Source not too long ago. I'm saving it for a rally hard boss.

So back to story.

Jack's Squad. I firmly believe there is nothing more powerful than a kind word and a nice smile. Jack wasn't "rude" in the strictest sense but at the same time, I read everything he said in the most patently insincere tone imaginable. Like, every time he said "I wanna be good neighbors" he might as well have said "smurf you, you little bitch" instead. I don't like him very much. I was sorely tempted to say I'd sooner trust the demons but that seemed a bit excessive right now. The demons have tried to kill me, all Jack has done is be a huge jerk which was exacerbated by his putting on this huge sham of not being a jerk.

Oh well. I went and did this stupid maze trout for him. Man it was confusing.

You guys know about me and Ouroboros already. Ugh.

Ah Jack Squad. The memories... *eye twitch*


Speaking of my alignment though, I turned Law when Ourobors boasted of having endless power. I said her opponent also has endless power. Makes sense to me - Mastema has helped me out a lot and God is apparently on my side so smurf you demons. I literally have friends in high places.

"High places" may be a stretch for YHHW. Gabriel and Satan are pretty decent angels depending on the game of course...


Then "Gore" came back and then he left again. I have no idea what's going on with him.
I can tell you right now that even when it does get explained to you, you'll still probably think the same way. Gore to me is just the wacky quirky side of the team on full blast. I'm still trying to wrap my head on how he got a Tuxedo.


The three guys from way earlier are back, too. I thought maybe they were supposed to represent the alignments or something, ya know? Three guys, three alignments. One of them seemed nice enough back at the start. But nope, now they all trout on humans. I wanna know what their deal is already but I suspect it may be a while.

If the Wise Men are the three most fans believe them to be, it actually makes sense they wouldn't like humanity much.


Wasn't Aleph the name of one of the SMT Protagonists? I seem to recall this being talked about on some forum I frequent... I think it was discussing who the strongest protagonist is from a story perspective. I might be mis-remembering, it's been a while and I obviously have no real insight into this matter.
Aleph is indeed the name of the main character from SMT2, but he has no relation to Mem Aleph. Aleph is a Hebrew number associated with beginnings. Mem Aleph is basically "Mother Earth" in form.



Oh now, Jack's Squad are suddenly our enemies. Who could have foreseen this. Seriously though, one line by the mystery men about Arthur being a "ghost" is now seeming like it might mean something. For an emotionless AI thing, he's become very proactive and judgmental. I mean, I hate Jack's Squad as much as I'm surely supposed to but Arthur has been pretty clearly pushing us for a confrontation. About to storm their base to rescue Jimenez.
Arthur has basically been developing its own sense of consciousness by this point.


So the Alice and the Bunny thing was weird. The demons loved Alice the real girl but they remade her as a sadistic maniac? Also I stopped her from killing the rabbit. What monster would stand there and let her do it?!
Well if you know the folktale behind the rabbit, you might let her do it, but I would agree it would still be messed up.

Alice is a long running tradition in the series dating back to SMT1. She's basically a ghost with overwhelming magical power and may or may not (the series likes to be coy about this) associated with the Alice of a certain wonderland fame.


And now I have killed the Boob Demon. Ever notice the Chaos demons are always really hideous or super sexy?
Heaven has it's fair share of hotties and monsters....
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/8/83/Angel.png/revision/latest?cb=20080630225046
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/3/36/Raphael2.png/revision/latest?cb=20080708173054
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/f/f5/1540636-dominion.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20101208221318
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/e/e2/Satan.png/revision/latest?cb=20080701231327


Seriously, Mother/Tiamat was pretty easy. My new Virtue with Mortal Jihad was doing more damage than exploiting her weakness and the subsequent co-op. I know people seem to talk about Debilitate a lot but my Revolver's Cripple move just kept chipping her defense until Jihad did like 220-240 a turn.
Glad to see you're getting the hang of the gameplay.


Back to plot. I just learned what you've been talking about, Wolf. About the demons being former nature spirits corrupted by humanity. Still, this seems like it might be something specific to this game. I dunno.

It's emphasized a lot in this title, but it also happens in the original SMT1 as well.


And "Gore" continues to be vague and weird. Is he related to Louisa? They both just show up randomly and confuse me.... I just want to know where the hell Mastema has been in the last forever.
Plotting could be the answer to all three actually. No, Gore isn't exactly related to Louisa, he's technically working for Chaos at the moment but not very effectively for reasons.


So you might have noticed I skipped over Jimenaboo. I told him no way when he asked me to fuse him and Boo but the game made me anyway. So I want to take this opportunity to talk a bit about my understanding of Chaos so far. I likened it earlier to Sith Philosophy but I was told not to.Chaos is not supposed to be evil. It shares Sith traits like the idea that freedom is power and power is freedom but you can use that freedom to do good. But Jimenez is a jerk and selfish. He wouldn't have done all this for anyone or anything else. Chaos would seem to me to indicate he'd leave 99% of everyone else to die and have no problem with that. Plus, under such rules, what Jack's Squad was doing would be perfectly okay. Jimenez seemed to be all FOR THE DEMONS and WHAT ABOUT THE POOR DEMONS but it was a demon abusing Boo when we found him.

If you sided more with Chaos and Jiminez, you'd learn that what he likes about the demons is not just their freedom but the fact they are more honest. The lack of rules and strength of will is valued by them tends to appeal to Jiminez. Bugaboo is also an oddity because he's technically not a real demon, he's a human/demon hybrid created for experiments. As a mercenary, Jiminez has been used and seen the worst in people and that made him only want to look out for himself, but I feel he has a connection to Bugaboo because he sees himself in it. It helps the guy saved his life a few times, as well as Chaos oddly enough seems to value friendship more than Law and Neutral.


Also one of the options you can say to Ouroboros about her endless power is "I want that power." Well gee, I wonder what alignment that shifts you towards.

Well not all questions are going to be thought-provoking.


So what the hell is Chaos? Given it's supreme individualism, can it be anything? Jimenez is not going to think of it in the same way as some other character in some other game. Plus Even in this game, the demons have hierarchy and order and clearly willingly follow Tiamat. So...I dunno what to make of it all.

I look forward to beating the crap out of Jimenaboo when he inevitably goes crazy.

Oh and I let Jimenez kill Jack. I doubt it matters what you pick but I let the bastard get what was coming to him.

Chaos tends to always appeal to the weak who wish to be powerful, it's an underlying theme of all of the Chaos heroes that feel like victims and thus strive to have greater power so they never have to feel powerless again. The demons associated with it tend to either be from more ancient religions, and were often demonized by later religions. The other half is filled by Lucifer and his cronies who are just going out of their way to stop Law. You're mainly dealing with the first half in SJ.

Chaos itself tends to involve absolute freedom even at the cost of suffering and "might makes right". They feel people should be unrestricted and allowed to do what they want, but also understand that one needs power to do so. Thus the strong have absolute freedom, but the path at least allows everyone the chance to obtain it, even if that does mean some people may never have the opportunity to have that kind of power.

One of the more interesting things about SMTIV is that it's the first game to give you a chance to really explore and see a world run by Chaos and Law.

[Forsaken Lover]

So Wolf, you said you wouldn't start with SJ. Do you not like the game? Which is your favorite SMT title?


Hey, I am agreeing with Jimenez over Zelenin for once. This isn't right. We should have headed over there instantly and painted the walls red. Where's my Renegade option game.

So...this game is not very subtle. I mean, it never was but holy trout. Jimenez is now actually a demon and Zelenin is actually an angel. You might as well have tattooed CHAOS on his forehead and LAW on hers.

Angel Zelenin: How do I look?

Me: Meh.

Seriously, one of the options is "No problems here. " What the hell. I picked "awe-inspiring." "Beautiful" was another but I neglected that because while beautiful doesn't have to be in a vulgar sensel, I didn't want to take any chances.

Maybe it's the music.

sqJuIxdyNkM


Obviously out-of-universe reasoning but it always does leave me feeling reverential. In-universe, I imagine my PC is just struck by the majesty of the angels.

It is good to see Mastema again.
http://i.imgur.com/zCMotnn.png

Apparently he's been busy building an army. You'd think God could just whip one up in a thought b ut guess not. While we're on that topic though, ever notice how in these series that mix all sorts of mythologies, Christianity seems to come out on top? Yahweh and Lucifer are top dogs here and I remember in Supernatural Lucifer basically killed several pantheons in one episode. People tried to justify with some BS D&D reasoning of "well, their power level is determined by their followers and many of these gods were from dead religions." Except Lucifer killed some Hindu god or goddess IIRC so what the smurf. Why does the Patrick Stewart head and Lucy get to be above all the other mythologies beings in this setting?

Getting back on topic, is there any reason at all to side with the horrible monsters that have repeatedly tried to kill you for several hours over the nice guy here who has saved your life and been nothing but cool?

This is reminding me so much of NieR. No, there is no argument. The monsters are monsters and need to die. Father Nier did nothing wrong.

So...Grus. Jesus Christ, never again. You guys have any idea how long I was lost in there? Someone told me back when I started this game that I should just look up the maps for all the later dungeons. I said "nope, Imma do it myself and be awesome." Well, after a few hours of doing it myself, I caved. Turns out, B3F's maze has several staircases leading up. I mean, I found 4, I figured that was all of them. But nope, there was another one that led me to a rare forma that let me progress to Maya. So I AM SORRY, I am a trout gamer but what sin covers"thinks teleporter puzles are a good idea"? Whoever thought of this crap is terrible. Everyone talked about Sector E, I never heard trout about this dungeon and its love of making you go through the whole dungeon several smurfing times. I'm suddenly nostalgic for Final Fantasy II's monster closets. That was still a better idea than this.

Anyway, I beat Maya on one try. Bit of a joke, really. Pretty much only did single target damage attacks. I think I might just hold onto the Revolver because Stone is awesome and Cripple seems to work well on bosses.

We interrupt this regularly scheduled cutscene to bring you...

Three Wise Man: We are the Three Wise Man and the Earth will soon be destroyed just like it was before.

Me: Yeah I knew that second part. But who exactly are you guys?

We interrupt this interruption to bring you....

Louisa: NO, let the world be destroyed for freedom!

Wait, I still don't know who you are either...

And then the cutscene was over.

Well it is nice that they "explained everything" and by explained everything they didn't explain trout.

This game is starting to wear on me though. Even good games can outstay their welcome. I can tell because I just have no interest in grinding for forma to make new equipment or items. I really should be doing that though. I'm Level 60 and I'm worried about how I might be way too weak.

I thought about going through the next dungeon and stuff before posting this but...ehhhh. As I said, starting to get burnt out. How much more game is there?

[Fynn]

Well, just one more dungeon :D

And you'd get who the Three Wise Men and Louisa are if you'd played any of the main series before. This is why Wolf told you this isn't the ideal game to start - it's an homage to old MegaTen and relies on some familiarity with its tropes. (HINT: try saying "Louisa Ferre out loud a couple times :p)

And I'm baffled at how different your interpretation of Mastema was to mine XD Of course, I went Neutral, so maybe some dialog was different, but everything he said and did was always suspicious af. And I'm Roman Catholic!

[Wolf Kanno]

So Wolf, you said you wouldn't start with SJ. Do you not like the game? Which is your favorite SMT title?
SMTIII:Nocturne is my favorite overall, though SMTIV and some of the spin-off titles are close second.

I actually really enjoyed Strange Journey and it would be one of those "spin-offs titles that are a close second" category. I simply find the daunting almost masochistic gameplay to be something most modern gamers would find as a turn off so I usually don't suggest it as a starting point for that fact. Unless Etrian Odyssey is like one of your fave games, I usually would suggest easing into one of the easier entries.

SMTIV would have been my suggestion for a starting point in the mainline series, mainly because it was largely designed for that very reason.



Hey, I am agreeing with Jimenez over Zelenin for once. This isn't right. We should have headed over there instantly and painted the walls red. Where's my Renegade option game.

Well, you have felt more Renegade if you sided with Jiminez more often but the outcome would have been the same.



So...this game is not very subtle. I mean, it never was but holy trout. Jimenez is now actually a demon and Zelenin is actually an angel. You might as well have tattooed CHAOS on his forehead and LAW on hers.

It's never really been about twists, it's simply about exploring the idealogies. Most of the series is never subtle about this, regardless of what some SMT fans think.


Angel Zelenin: How do I look?

Me: Meh.

Seriously, one of the options is "No problems here. " What the hell. I picked "awe-inspiring." "Beautiful" was another but I neglected that because while beautiful doesn't have to be in a vulgar sensel, I didn't want to take any chances.

Maybe it's the music.

sqJuIxdyNkM


Obviously out-of-universe reasoning but it always does leave me feeling reverential. In-universe, I imagine my PC is just struck by the majesty of the angels.

I'll give the angels props, they usually know how to make an entrance in any of the games. Course once they really start showing up, that's when trout hits the fan....


It is good to see Mastema again.
http://i.imgur.com/zCMotnn.png

You are probably the first person I've ever met who has said that. ;)

Course I don't think you'll see the true extent of his character unless you go on the Chaos path.


Apparently he's been busy building an army. You'd think God could just whip one up in a thought b ut guess not. While we're on that topic though, ever notice how in these series that mix all sorts of mythologies, Christianity seems to come out on top? Yahweh and Lucifer are top dogs here and I remember in Supernatural Lucifer basically killed several pantheons in one episode. People tried to justify with some BS D&D reasoning of "well, their power level is determined by their followers and many of these gods were from dead religions." Except Lucifer killed some Hindu god or goddess IIRC so what the smurf. Why does the Patrick Stewart head and Lucy get to be above all the other mythologies beings in this setting?

Well I would probably point out that Hindu gods are not worshiped or revered in the same manner as the Abrahamic Religions, until the 1950's it was largely an unorganized collection of regional religions that had some common traits, much like Shinto is in Japan. There are millions of gods in the faith and their importance is based on where you are.

On the brightside, SMTIV: Apocalypse actually addresses the issue of the "other religions" by having it center on some of the major non-Judeo-Christian faiths. Also, Lucifer is a major player on Chaos but he tends to be hands off, YHHW is no different actually. About the only games where either bother to get their hands dirty are surprisingly few. SJ is in fact one of them as Mastema and Mem-Aleph are the major antagonists for this title.


Getting back on topic, is there any reason at all to side with the horrible monsters that have repeatedly tried to kill you for several hours over the nice guy here who has saved your life and been nothing but cool?

This is reminding me so much of NieR. No, there is no argument. The monsters are monsters and need to die. Father Nier did nothing wrong.

Well if you knew the history of said "good guys" you would know they are hardly good, and they only helped you to serve their own purposes. Also, as a misanthrope myself, I can't argue that the demons make a pretty good argument for mankind's extinction or at least being thrown into a more subservient position. Though I would agree that SJ is one of the few entries where Chaos is finally not being relegated as the "lesser evil" for once, which is refreshing.



So...Grus. Jesus Christ, never again. You guys have any idea how long I was lost in there? Someone told me back when I started this game that I should just look up the maps for all the later dungeons. I said "nope, Imma do it myself and be awesome." Well, after a few hours of doing it myself, I caved. Turns out, B3F's maze has several staircases leading up. I mean, I found 4, I figured that was all of them. But nope, there was another one that led me to a rare forma that let me progress to Maya. So I AM SORRY, I am a trout gamer but what sin covers"thinks teleporter puzles are a good idea"? Whoever thought of this crap is terrible. Everyone talked about Sector E, I never heard trout about this dungeon and its love of making you go through the whole dungeon several smurfing times. I'm suddenly nostalgic for Final Fantasy II's monster closets. That was still a better idea than this.


Sector E is just when the dungeons got mean, Grus is the nightmare dungeon for sure. Luckily the last area is not as nasty.

Anyway, I beat Maya on one try. Bit of a joke, really. Pretty much only did single target damage attacks. I think I might just hold onto the Revolver because Stone is awesome and Cripple seems to work well on bosses.

Stone is your best friend.


We interrupt this regularly scheduled cutscene to bring you...

Three Wise Man: We are the Three Wise Man and the Earth will soon be destroyed just like it was before.

Me: Yeah I knew that second part. But who exactly are you guys?

We interrupt this interruption to bring you....

Louisa: NO, let the world be destroyed for freedom!

Wait, I still don't know who you are either...

And then the cutscene was over.

Well it is nice that they "explained everything" and by explained everything they didn't explain trout.

As Fynn said, it's pretty easy to figure out if you know the history of the series. Louisa Ferre is pretty easy to figure out (once again showing off their paper thin disguise) but the Three Wise Men are most likely a reference to the Valhalla Council from SMT2, which is why most fans strongly believe they are the Seraph Uriel, Raphael, and Michael; otherwise three of the four main angels that serve to make YHHW's Thousand Year Kingdom come true.


This game is starting to wear on me though. Even good games can outstay their welcome. I can tell because I just have no interest in grinding for forma to make new equipment or items. I really should be doing that though. I'm Level 60 and I'm worried about how I might be way too weak.

I thought about going through the next dungeon and stuff before posting this but...ehhhh. As I said, starting to get burnt out. How much more game is there?

That to me is pretty normal for this game. I was pretty burnt out myself when I got to the last section of the game. Lv. 60 sounds a bit weak, but I kind of remembering being able to level up quickly in the last area and technically the right party build can still curb-stomp most bosses, so don't fret.

[Forsaken Lover]

I swear I didn't t even think of Lucifer until now... I forgot Louisa even had a last name.

I am the dumb.

And when it comes to rep'ing other religions, I hear in the DDS games one of the Hindu deities actually replaces YHWH as top dog so that's cool I guess. I have DDS1, I just never really played it.

And since you mentioned Nocturne, I bought it and P3FES off PSN. I'll get into those after I wrap up SJ.

And I don't mind stuf not being subtle. I am a fan of Hideo Kojima after all. I think the people online who get their panties in a twist over how "true genius" doesn't have to preach at you or lay everything out in blatant fashion are being ridiculous.

[Forsaken Lover]

I'm really agitated so I need to say this.

I've never liked Jimenez but now I think on all this, I kinda hate him.

Nothing he says makes any sense. He fused with Bugaboo, he knows Boo better than anyone else. Boo who has been, since we first saw him, victimized and abused by others. Boo who was never overly aggressive or cruel and suffered because of it.

Jimenez KNOWS that the kind of world his buddy was born into has caused him nothing but pain. Yet he insists on spreading it EVEN FURTHER. Now there will be hundreds, thousands, MILLIONS of Bugaboos.

Chaos needed a good representative in this game, someone with charisma who could articulate how this awful philosophy maybe wasn't so bad. Instead, it got Jimenez, a guy whose every word and action screams blatant hypocrisy. Chaos is full of shit is all I have gotten from this game.

Do you realize WHY the humans are beating the demons? Because they are obviously stronger. Which means according to Chaos, the humans are right.. Those demons who were experimented on by Jack's Squad? Deserved what they got for being weak, according to THEM.

Reminds me of Rurouni Kenshin. Yahiko asks Kenshin, once they beat Shishio, doesn't that prove Kenshin right and Shishio wrong? Kenshin mildly rebukes him and tells him no. Just because you win a fight doesn't make your morals or ideology more correct.

Well, that was noble of him to say but just as Shishio was a survival of the fittest type, I feel justified in turning their own BS philosophy on them. By losing, Chaos is not worthy of being acknowledged or respected. I win, my way is right, the end.

I dunno, something really touched a nerve when I started to think about all this. Their stupid Just World hypothesis and trying to "return to nature/good old days." It wasn't so good for the people born with handicaps, was it? It's not about ability or will, it's about luck. That's no way to govern anything or to improve lives for anyone.

[Squall Leonhart Loire]

A bit off-topic since you've diverged into Strange Journey, but I have to say Persona 2 and Final Fantasy VIII have very strange similarities..... that go more than just the "characters knew each other but forgot" plot twist.

[Wolf Kanno]

I swear I didn't t even think of Lucifer until now... I forgot Louisa even had a last name.

I am the dumb.

And when it comes to rep'ing other religions, I hear in the DDS games one of the Hindu deities actually replaces YHWH as top dog so that's cool I guess. I have DDS1, I just never really played it.


Yeah I just finished DDS1 earlier this year. I need to start DDS2 this year pretty soon.


I'm really agitated so I need to say this.

I've never liked Jimenez but now I think on all this, I kinda hate him.

Nothing he says makes any sense. He fused with Bugaboo, he knows Boo better than anyone else. Boo who has been, since we first saw him, victimized and abused by others. Boo who was never overly aggressive or cruel and suffered because of it.

Jimenez KNOWS that the kind of world his buddy was born into has caused him nothing but pain. Yet he insists on spreading it EVEN FURTHER. Now there will be hundreds, thousands, MILLIONS of Bugaboos.

Chaos needed a good representative in this game, someone with charisma who could articulate how this awful philosophy maybe wasn't so bad. Instead, it got Jimenez, a guy whose every word and action screams blatant hypocrisy. Chaos is full of trout is all I have gotten from this game.

Do you realize WHY the humans are beating the demons? Because they are obviously stronger. Which means according to Chaos, the humans are right.. Those demons who were experimented on by Jack's Squad? Deserved what they got for being weak, according to THEM.

Reminds me of Rurouni Kenshin. Yahiko asks Kenshin, once they beat Shishio, doesn't that prove Kenshin right and Shishio wrong? Kenshin mildly rebukes him and tells him no. Just because you win a fight doesn't make your morals or ideology more correct.

Well, that was noble of him to say but just as Shishio was a survival of the fittest type, I feel justified in turning their own BS philosophy on them. By losing, Chaos is not worthy of being acknowledged or respected. I win, my way is right, the end.

I dunno, something really touched a nerve when I started to think about all this. Their stupid Just World hypothesis and trying to "return to nature/good old days." It wasn't so good for the people born with handicaps, was it? It's not about ability or will, it's about luck. That's no way to govern anything or to improve lives for anyone.

And that's the point. The Chaos and Law heroes are always hypocrites and so is their philosophy. In both cases, their ideologies only benefit a few and spread suffering to others, and it's thinking about this that is suppose to help direct you towards the neutral end of things that tries to balance the best and worst aspects of both.

Granted the heroes themselves are pretty chill if you choose their side and I feel they accentuate the negative of the other heroes when you are opposed to their philosophy. I honestly liked Jiminez more than Zelenin. I could sympathize with her, but I could never agree with her. I actually had to use the Dwarf EX-Mission in the Fairy Village to knock me back to Neutral in my own playthrough.

They are both certainly more likable than the heroes friends in Nocturne though. There is a reason why fans affectionately give it this subtitle:

71562

Speaking of, I haven't bombarded this thread with all the misc. pictures I have of the games.

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[Forsaken Lover]

You know it's a good game when you fight a zombie in a tux. Seriously, Gore out of nowhere and then he's a dickhead and attacks me out of nowhere. Is this a Law/Chaos-specific boss? He beat me a few times but he's my kind of boss. No annoying status effects, just figure out weakness, apply buffs and debuffs, attack and heal. There is still a decent element of chance because he attacks exclusively in multi-hit physical attack so sometimes he wants to be, I dunno, smart and land all his best hits on one character instead of spreading them out. If he does this you pretty much die. It doesn't happe ntoo often. My point is just that there is a still a mark of unpredictability here.

But now he is dead and so is Arthur because....uh....

Oh hey Zelenin is back. That's cool. Collect Cosmic Eggs? Really game? Talk about padding. I think I'm gonna go try and fight Aleph now and see how badly I get wrecked. At least I'll have an idea what I'm in for.


Or not... Well at least the Cosmic Egg shit is pretty easy.

Well, I feel both embarrassed and elated. I ran into my old buddy Jimenez not looking so well and he kinda kept kicking my ass. He was weak to Ice so I kept looking for demons with Heavy Ice attacks. With four Defense downs on him, a couple co-op attacks could do about 500 damage. It was a grueling struggle and I was willing to give up one Great Chakra even. But his gun attack is crazy strong and kept wrecking my shit. Also eventually he starts ABSORBING Ice. I had built my whole team for that and now they were useless. So I went back to the drawing board...after many, many losses. I said fuck it and tried something new. I figured maybe attack up on us as well as defense down on him would be good and also I shouldn't put all my eggs in one basket. Rather than focus on co-op magic attacks, I decided to just beat the crap out of him with Jihad. 4 Attacks up on us, 4 defense down on him and now sudenly Jihad can do 400 damage and the rest of us can do another 400. 1000 damage per round of attack and sudenly Jimenez is a fucking joke. As I said, I'm embarrassed I wasted so much time on that.

Especially now I have seen Ma Aleph. Well I saw her for about 30 seconds because her first attack killed me. I'm Level 69. I'm not quite sure what I'm in for but the Sacrifices and Amrite Showers they gave me right before the battle give me a hint. As much as I am ready for this game to be over...I'm not ready for this game to be over. I foresee grinding in my future. I foresee me giving up any pretense of being a good gamer and just looking up where the hell the final forma are so I can unlock the last level of Unlock and Gate Search. I managed to find Enemy Search on my own so that's something right?

Ehhhhhh. I need that best level of armor I suppose that be a good start but I also need to be able to survive some of her attacks so I know how to build my team. This is the final battle, I can finally go nuts with all those Sources I've been stockpiling. I have so many of them in my "Too Good to Use" club. like Elixirs in FF, you never use Elixirs because you never know when you might need them. Same for the Sources. Well, if I'll ever need them, it's now.

For right now though, I guess it's game over Hudson. You were....a character.

[Fynn]

yup, the Neutral route is the only one where not only do you not fight Gore, but also Arthur lives. You're just kinda... not sided with humanity anymore :p

[Forsaken Lover]

Level 72, just beat Mara and got Seraph. Stuff is happening, slowly but surely. It's looking like Salvation will be my....salvation for the final battle. Full heal for the whole party AND removes status effects.

I also have elected to play Nocturne next because I am in such an SMT mood. Also because of what I was told about it being mechanically inferior to Persona 3 so I could better appreciate P3 by playing it later.

I also have Digital Devil Saga 1 which I never really played. That game doesn't have any alignments, right?

Am currently looking into maybe getting a 3DS with a soft hack to allow Streaming.... This way I can play SMTIV and stuff on a bigger screen so I can, ya know, actually play them. This method is a lot cheaper than getting it physically modified. Probably won't be this month though.

[Fynn]

The 3DS XL has a really big screen, though. DDS has no alignments, yes, and is in general probably the most FF-like game in the series in how narrative and characters are emphasized. Still ultra challenging dungeons though.

I wouldn't classify Nocture or SMTIV's battle system as inferior to P3's, just different takes on a similar idea. I know at least one person who did not enjoy the P3 battle system at all, so don't expect it to be the Second Coming of Christ or anything. I actually think the full press-turn system in Nocturne, DDS and IV is more interesting than the Once More mechanic. Persona is just flashier.

And a warning: the final boss' second form has an insta-kill attack that cannot be resisted in any way. If it hits your character, it's game over. And since you have a four-member party, that's a 25% chance of failure, potentially every turn. Don't even try to use those gems that protect you from death because that just makes her use it on her first turn. Just a heads up that the real final battle is a luck-based mission.

[NeoCracker]

Me an Nocturne don't see eye to eye. Not entirely the games fault, just the most freakish of Megaten moments I have experienced ever.

Random Encounter begins.

Round 1) Enemy goes first, hit's critical. Goes again, hits second critical. I die.

Reload. First Random enounter is the same enemy.

Round 1) Enemy goes first, hit's critical. Goes again, hit's second critical. I die.

Okay, this is fucking annoying, but fine. I was expecting Nocturne to be unfair at times, but I can do this. Same enemy encounter.

Round 1) Enemy goes first, hit's critical. Goes again, hit's second critical. I die.


And I have never looked back.

[Fynn]

Went pretty much the same for me, tbh :p Also, had tons of similar moments in Strange Journey.

Thankfully, IV dials this down a notch. That is, as long as you survive the early game. Because the early game is hell and the rest is cakewalk. This is probably because there is no defense stat.

[Forsaken Lover]

The 3DS XL has a really big screen, though. DDS has no alignments, yes, and is in general probably the most FF-like game in the series in how narrative and characters are emphasized. Still ultra challenging dungeons though.

I wouldn't classify Nocture or SMTIV's battle system as inferior to P3's, just different takes on a similar idea. I know at least one person who did not enjoy the P3 battle system at all, so don't expect it to be the Second Coming of Christ or anything. I actually think the full press-turn system in Nocturne, DDS and IV is more interesting than the Once More mechanic. Persona is just flashier.

And a warning: the final boss' second form has an insta-kill attack that cannot be resisted in any way. If it hits your character, it's game over. And since you have a four-member party, that's a 25% chance of failure, potentially every turn. Don't even try to use those gems that protect you from death because that just makes her use it on her first turn. Just a heads up that the real final battle is a luck-based mission.

I have really bad eyesight. A portable screen is just not going to cut it in a game where I need to constantly read.


I DID IT I DID IT I DID IT.

Or not...my celebration was a bit premature. Damn second form. I had wasted all my items in the first one.

Went and leveled up a bit more to get new demons. And with them, my Level 80 hero claims victory.

Team was Seraph, Amaterasu and Hachiman. I gave Amaterasu Enduring Soul (auto-revive once per battle with full HP) and boy did it come in handy. I was worried the lack of Luster Candy would cost me but nope. Debilitate does the trick. Well that and spamming Big Bang with Seraph adn Hachiman while Amaterasu heals and I throw Chakra restoratives at everyone.

Fight wasn't that hard. Maybe Seraph is just too much of a crutch for me to appreciate how challenging it is? There was one close call in the second form where the terrible power of the random physical attack was on full display. She brought me to about 45 HP with a relentless string of attacks...and then veered off and wasted the last couple hits in someone else. Clearly this was divine intervention.


http://i.imgur.com/XAP7SRs.png


Law is pretty awesome. Seems like a perfect ending to me.

Well I had fun. I'll probably write more on my thoughts on teh game once I've gotten some sleep.

I'll be starting Nocturne later today. I have no idea how its battle system might differ from P3's or what the various names you're using mean. lol I was just told that P3 came out later and was therefore made with the knowledge of what didn't work in SMT3.

[Fynn]

P3 does things a bit differently, while SMT IV for example uses a refined version of Nocturne's system. Have fun with that. Alignments are still in there, but it's no longer a choice between Law and Chaos.

Yeah, the problem with the final battle isn't that it's too hard, just that there's this huge randomness element to it that can screw you over no matter how prepared you are, like the MA attack and those random physical attacks. i think it took me like six tries and during my final attempt Mem Aleph didn't even use MA once, so that was really lucky.

Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone get behind Law before :p

[Forsaken Lover]

So Normal seems like the safest bet. This does not seem like it will be one of those games where you have to pick Hard to get any sort of challenge.

So far Nocturne is nothing like I expected. It has the Persona 2 town map stuff for starters. I'm apparently a schoolkid with classmate buddies is another thing. I wonder if Yuko is the final boss. I hear it's the same final boss in every "route" in this game. Bit disappointing but oh well.

I tried to run away from the crazy monologuing man who can summon monsters. "Face death honorably"? Fuck you. There's no honor in getting annihilated for no reason. Also while I've played myself as fairly "cool" towards these friends I actually don't know, the one friend's random line that went "and if you get in trouble, run like hell!" seemed like good advice both in and out of universe so I heeded it.

...or not. There goes the neighborhood, all of them.

Maybe the "little master" will be the final boss, though.

But man, I spent all last game hating the demons and now I -am- a demon. Sorta. Kinda. Maybe? Hard to roleplay here given lack of dialogue so far. Lots of talk about me deciding things but, well, I've just beaten up some little kids so far.

This game is just piling on the MYSTERIOUS FIGURES though. I can dig it.

I should have been asleep hours ago...but man this is a lot of fucking fun. I am going to like this game.

Do these dialogue choices matter? I am emphasizing my PC being kind of clueless. Cihiaki asked me if I knew what happened and I didn't say "the Conception happened" because what the fuck does that even mean.

What's up with these...nearest I can think of them for comparison is from Star Ocean": Th eLast Hope. They were called Ambushed when you were forced into a second battle with a new group of enemies immediately after killing the first group. But as it pertains to this game, is there any rhyme or reason to a second group of enemies appearing like that? Seems like it could get dangerous in later dungeons with harder enemies.


At Ginza now, I told "Spectre" I was going to kill him...er, it because it was clearly out to get me. The Network place was wonderful for gaining Macca and EXP, though. So far I've been working on the ice and support Magatama. Since you gain abilities at level up, I'm kinda worried about sticking with just one and missing out on useful skills.... On the other hand, constantly switching will also leave me screwed in terms of missed skills. Decisions, decisions.

Although I nearly got my first Game Over when I had a double dose of "new enemies appeared." It was my own fault for forgetting I have support moves and being reluctant to use MP but in the end I made it out alive. I do have quite the supply of Chakra Drops, maybe I should be less stingy with skills.

So I've been so engrossed in Nocturne I haven't written anything in ages.

I've had several more game overs since my last comment. Most notable and least shameful was against Matador. I did not see a boss fight coming! Luckily he made me realize my party desperately needed reconfiguring and that was why I was getting my ass kicked so often. I went and did some fusion, turning Angel and someone else into Uzuma and some other random monsters into the catgirl thing. I would like to take credit for realizing Matador uses Force attacks and that's why I chose these monsters but I guess it's kinda obvious given, in my first attempt (of only two attempts, mind) I was the only one not being wrecked by his assault.

Let's go over that for a second. I was advised to pick melee or magic at the start. Mage 4 Life so I was very happy when I arrived at the little underground hideout and could buy more magic Magatama. Up until that point I had learned Ice Earth with the ice magic Magatama but I spent far more time on the support magic one. That was what really saved me against Matador. True, my party now being largely immune to his attacks was a good thing but it was the Defense Down spell I learned that really sealed his face. Inuagami and his Medium-level Bite attack has been my best source of damage in the last couple boss fights. He just evolved into Makami too. Although now I have Tornado + Force Boost so here's hoping I can now kick ass.

In terms of plot...well, Matador was pretty cool for the five seconds he was around . Otherwise it's just mystery upon mystery up until this point. I'm at the Mantra base and I guess my other friend is here so that's cool. I suppose ostensibly my ultimate goal is to try and find Ms (Mrs?) Takao and the other jerk. I had to look up his name. Hikawa is not a very memorable or interesting villain so far. I'm far more interested in the little kid and the mysterious woman. MegaTen wiki says Hikawa is a "Reason Bearer" whatever that means. Maybe he'll be better later on.

Overall, I am pretty much addicted to this game right now. Strange Journey was a lot of fun but...I dunno, it all felt so impersonal. It doesn't sound like much but actually being able to see myself and my demons in battle matters.

So Thor was quite intimidating at first. I mean, the bastard gets like three or four attacks in a row! I was stumped for a bit, thinking I just had to somehow tank it with the help of lowering his attack power.
However Makami has Fog Breath now and I guess what Thor does is considered some kind of combo attack because when he misses the first move, he doesn't get any mor attacks in. Made the fight a lot simpler.

So is my old buddy who clearly was hot for teacher dead? They explained Magatsuhi as, I think, energy born of emotions and stuff. Is it like a soul? Can you not live without it? I thik my friend deserves some props merely for surviving one hit from Thor.

Also I remember we are supposed to be looking for "the others" like Chiaki recommended. Well, there's one other down and we're about to go find Takao maybe. But Chiaki hasn't said shit and neither did I. I guess nobody liked that kid Thor killed.

So....I hate Dante. Always have. I hate him in his games and I hate him here. Constantly de-debuffing himself and then using Provoke twice when I have no defense up skills. I managed to scrape out a win by fusing myself an Oni with Focus. He can do about 600 damage a turn which is awesome.

But now we are off to finally get into the Assembly thingy. I told the big guy that i wasn't sure about his offer yet. I need to se what Nihilo is all about before I pick a side.

But man, there are SO MANY Magatama still to come and I'm already way out of skill slots.... I suppose some of the skills will be replaced by upgraded versions, like how I dumped the lesser atack down skill for War Cry. But even still, this is gonna get annoying, trying to juggle all these abilities.

So I met Hikawa again. I told him I was there to see him because what the fuck else am I doing in this game? I said no I don't know what's up with the Magatsuhi. Apparently you need it to usher in a god. Not GOD god though. Also when he asked if I had come to see Yuko, I said no. That lady is ancient history to me now. You realize how many hours and levels it's been since I've seen her? Speaking of which, Dante is the worst demon slayer ever. "An old man told me to kill you." Even I am pretty sure I know who that old man is. Way to go demon slayer master bishie moron.

Speaking of all that netherworld business though, I just got my second Candelobra from that asshole who loved draining your MP. I'm not really sure what you're supposed to do in that Labyrinth? Just keep going lower and lower? I made it to the second Kalpa a while ago but stopped there.

But yeah, I annihilated that chump and Ose too. I figured a big boss was coming so I went and started messing with Fusion. Guess who found, at level 30, they can help recreate the awesome Matador? I was thinking I'd try to do sacrifice to amp him up but the game is on to me or something because it only let me fuse him when the Kagutsuchi cycle was low.

Oh and hey, I had begun to wonder if the plot had forgotten about Chiaki. Talk about off-screen character development. I like the serene music while she's talking about the strong trampling the weak though. She certainly cuts a different picture of this "Yosuga" than the Mantra top guys. Oh yeah, way back when the big guy asked if I wanted to join, I said I had to think about it. Anyway she asked if I agreed with her new enlightened worldview and I told her no. More accurately, I said I didn't "see the point." She took it all in good stride though. See you later for a boss battle probably.

And holy crap, Isamu IS still alive. Crazy. Now I gotta go rescue some Mankin.

Only, that will wait. At present, I am Level 32 and my new awesome team that just wrecked te hbosses consists of Matador, Zouchou and Sarasvati. Nearly Level 33 and I've played the game 20 hours.

I might still play more tonight but this post is gonna be so friggin' long... I can't help it. I literally couldn't stop playing except when I had to sleep, eat or walk my dog. This game is so good. I'm not only having a blast in terms of gameplay, I'm really interested in seeing where the story takes me. I already feel closer to this Nik than I did SJ's Nik. There's a huge cast of intriguing characters and mystries piled upon mysteries. I have to see how it's all unfolded and resolved.

Bit premature maybe but if this game continues to get better, it might end up one of my favorite JRPG's of all time. Bit more focus on the story and maybe some more dialogue choices or whatever and it be perfect.

UR6pHaeRV3w

Running into Matador was really a high point for me in the game and this song is a big reason for that. "Shit gets real" to use a crass but apt cliche.

Also while it is a bit hard to RP in these games, I do have to consider my "Reason." That's the whole point of all this. All I know right now is I feel like my hero is rather detached. World ended, woke up as a demon, is now pretty much doing nothing but consorting with demons and dealing in their affairs. World of Stillness or Might Makes Right, neither one really appeals to "him." He just wants to continue experiencing it all, ya know? Find out who, what and why. Although Ms. Takao and my classmates have long since ceased having much meaning to me.

[Forsaken Lover]

So the Prison was irritating but what can you do. But man, my old buddies are just full of surprises. Ismu mouthed off to me as he is wont to do so that isn't surprising, I'm more referring to the POWAH he can now wield somehow. My response to his rudeness was to turn away and leave the room. The old me might have taken this shit but this is a new world, a new me. Seems he kind of agrees with me, even. But yeah, I won't tolerate his crap. There was even a dialogue option to "apologize." Apologize for what? Him being dumb?

Also why did the kid have to fuck with me and turn me into a demon when my human friends and Hikawa and stuff can do all this shit on their own?

So yeah, this Labyrinth is pretty much a necessity, whatever that dumb angel tried to tell me. The Lady in Black actually made me more interested in Hikawa. To think he was part of a Chaos cult yet he became the most Lawful. Also one of the Souls in the Second Kalpa said God told "the Order of Messiah" about the impending end of the world so naturally they tried to stop it. This is YHWH we're talking about, correct? Kinda weird he's the tip top god but none of the endings are "His."

I dunno what to make of Hijiri who I have not mentioned in spite of him being the first real NPC we deal with, not counting Yuko's...whatever that was. His innocent unassuming "let me help you even though I am powerless" routine is worrisome. I mean, look where my other fellow powerless humans ended up. I mention him because I came to this new city for him and got my third Candelabrum. I had more trouble with the one Oni than I did with this Rider because the Oni absorbed Force attacks which is how I win pretty much all my fights. Tornado Spam.

peaking of Fiends though I've already found Disoujou and Hell Biker to make. I dunno if I want to, though. I know I was told Daisoujou is great and maybe I will want him when later on but for now, I really want to use demons I like. I have enough Macca and demons that I can afford to be a bit picky, can't I? It's like, Matador was the man and I also really don't want to lose Sarasvati. Her instrument-playing for every move is just so wonderful and part of why I feel more...immersed in this game than I did in SJ. I mean, these demons with you are talking, sapient creatures. Why can't they be my friends? I don't need Persona, I have all the friends I need right here. Now how to get Matador's Approval higher....

So I didn't really like the Obelisk. Felt way too...time wastey and stock. "We need a big tower!" was onsome checklist somewhere. Plus the "bosses" were a joke with less personality than the one cutscene wonders known as the Fiends. They didn't even put effort into the names.

Interesting to see Yuko again though. I guess she and Hikawa had a bit of a falling out when he turned her into a Magatsuhi magnet. Speaking of which, I ran into this one Manikin who asked me about collecting Magatsuhi and if that's what I was all about. I said yes - EVERYONE is doing it, including my old friends and teacher and my most bitter enemy. Gathering Magatsuhi is the only way to succeed it seems or at least to stop others from succeeding.

So Yosuga, Aradia and Shijima - these are my three choices, correct? A world of stillness, a world of might makes right and a world to do whatever you want which I guess means being all harmonious OR being Social Darwinist. Although, at present, I've only really (kinda) talked to Aradia. Also while Googling to make sure I was spelling any of these names right I read Aradia is a false god.... I guess that's a spoiler? What is a false god anyway? I hope this wasn't some big reveal I fucked up.

So the little kid IS the final boss! Old woman said he'd hate if I gave him a dull ending and you don't get a final boss in the Bad End right? Don't tell me if I'm right or not. A

Although where does the little brat get off saying a Demon can't have a "Reason"? A. I'm a demo nbecause of him. B. Demons are people too. It's like I was saying earlier, although in a less joke-y way. Demons are not Pokemon, they are a race of sapient creatures every bit as intelligent and capable as us. They have culture and identities and stuff. I honestly wish I could see more of it but it's definitely there. So where does the kid get off on saying they can't have an ideology?

I'm ashamed to admit how long I was stuck on the Red Rider. First off, he was immune to my usual strategy of Tornado spam. Second, he just kept getting buffed by his mooks. All told, he was a slap in the face for me the complacent gamer. I wanted to figure out how to survive so we could do some damage with Yaksini who is my best damage dealer after myself. I made her with Zouchou and she has Might, Focus and, Tarukaja and her own ability Guillotine. She can do some great damage when al that is combined and so she was my only hope for victory without seriously revising my team. I didn't think that was necessary because Red Rider didn't seem that strong. But then it hit me - in one of my mainy battles with him I was looking at my items to see if I could find anything that could help. I saw a Plume thing that inflicts Charm. That was a no go but it made me finally realize...his goons, the Powers he summons, are just shitty normal mooks. They are vulnerable to status effects. Killing them is a waste of time. (I had hoped he'd waste turns summoning them instead of attacking me.) Unfortunately I had no Stone or Mute abilities at present but I did have one thing. One ability I doubt I'll ever, ever give up. Mana Drain. Drain those bastards dry and smack the Rider with War Cry and suddenly the fight is a joke. He went down in like, 2 or 3 hits of my earlier combo. I figured he had way more HP than that.

And then the Black Rider was a joke.

Anyway, gonna stop here and post this now. This is the second half of the game I believe. It's time to stop being a wandering, confused adventurer. wondering about Who, What, Where, Why and How. now we're gonna work on creating a whole new world. I say we because Hijiri is there. Gotta love that guy - "Oh yeah, I'm gonna help you make a new universe based on your ideals. No biggie." I would sooner trust little kid than Hijiri. This is why I: A. Told him I didn't want to talk about it when he asked about rescuing Yuko. B. Said I didn't know Isamu. Also said that just because fuck Isamu. Is his new universe the one where all the lady teachers can't resist him?

But yeah, things are gonna get real from here on out. I mentioned earlier if there was a bit more plot and choice, I'd say this game was perfect. From what I know, that all starts here.

[Forsaken Lover]

So this whole Labyrinth business wasn't even in original release Nocturne? But the Lady in Black explains so much stuff... That's a big reason I keep doing it as quickly as possible. She told me about Hikaa and now about Aradia and none of that is in the original game. That version is pretty dumb.
 
Also in the third Kalpa they have an NPC who I think reads your alignment or "soul wavelengths". I'm a turtle on its back right now which I take it means I have no path. Seems fitting, I've just kinda been going hither and thither without much thought beyond the immediate. All I really know is my old school chums have abandoned me to go be dicks, Ms. Takao is off being controlled by some god of false promises and the Lady in Black is probably the nicest person I know.
 
 Unsure of the significance of the "Shadow conversation" but I gave my name, said "..." about if I liked solitude and then said I could live on my own. I mean, me personally, there are times I like to be alone and there are times I like to be with other people. Probably more of the former than the latter but that doesn't really mean I like solitude. I simply am uneasy around strangers. And of course my Demi-Fiend is way strong so of course he can live on his own.  i think Chiaki was full of crap but the truth is the truth when it comes to needing power for self-sufficiency.
 
I said "no I don't think so" when it comes to Isamu's question about wanting to create my own world. I don't. I mean, what would it be a world of? Chiaki went crazy because...uh... Isamu was a nerd who wants to validate the isolation he experienced and Ms. Takao wants freedom after all her time in bondage. What do "I" want? I have no idea.
 
Ya know, I think Yuko is my favorite character in this game. It's like, I met with Hikawa at the Mantra HQ and he talked about his god and I really liked the fire metaphor for human greed. But his character and his motivation just do nothing for me. I was just clicking through his dialogue in a detached, uninterested way. Same for Isamu. But Yuko....I dunno, she promised me the Magatsuhi so what do I care about the Stone thingy? I agreed to let her have it. She's just...special. I actually care about her.
 
Gave the Thingamabob to Yuko. Got commended for it by another Fiend. Then she died.
 
 Sold the Spyglass I had from the Obelisk. I wanted that Magatama that cost 120,000 Macca  Broke me to do it but it was the only Magatama he sold that was fitting my playstyle.
 
Wondering if Chiaki is feeling really pathetic now, getting off-screened by a minor villain. In the world of the strong, random Japanese schoolgirls don't fare too well.
 
Hijiri: I can only assume Isamu died. Oh well.
 
I like this guy more now.
 
And now Chiaki is just straight up MWAHAHAHAHA Evil villain.  Gotta admit, I never saw this coming back at the start of the game. Also IMMEDIATELY after her transformation, the Mantra HQ gets inhabited by Dominions. I wish the game went more into the detail of demon clan lore. WHY are Divine spirits hanging out in  a place like that? Reminds me of how the Law-abiding Divines in Strange Journey were rubbing elbows with the Chaos bastards. It doesn't make sense.
 
But man, this game REALLY hates demons. Like, a lot. Whether it's the Harlot asking if I wanted to give into my demonhood which apparently entails accepting boundless despair (because when I think of infinite sadness, I think of Jack Frost or maybe one of those Fairies) and when Gozu was talking to Chiaki he said he could never have won because he didn't have a Reason. A REASON IS JUST AN IDEOLOGY. Demons can smurfing have ideologies. The silent "old man" vis-a-vis Lady in Black has an ideology. It's just his "Reason" is the negation of all other Reasons. To quote a Soul in the Third Kalpa quoting some random demon, there will be a death to death itself.
 
See, that's what I was complaining about in Strange Journey. Anything, no matter how horrific, can sound like the best thing in the world with the right spokesman or spokeswoman. Chaos had nothing going for it except Jimenez. You can see why it was unappealing. Here, it's actually alluring and interesting.  Then again, it's very different from the crap going on in SJ's Chaos side....
 
Also I think I just spoiled myself... The Lady in Black is the lady with the kid? That was all I got when Googling something and then I immediately stopped. Or rather it said "she appeared as a young woman and as an old woman with" and then I jerked my eye away. Goddammit.  I guess that's irritating but I'm more confused than anything. Now my head is full of wild new ideas. I kinda hope some of my speculation is wrong.
 
Anyway, continuing on, the game wouldn't give me much of a choice about why I went into the Amala Network after Hijiri. I said I was there to save Hijiri but only because, weighing him and Isamu, I like Hijiri more.
 
So ends Hijiri. He was...a dude. Isamu is a dickhead, who knew.
 
Although, to bring it back to what I said earlier, judging by the Power and Dominion that came to the Amala Temple, Chiaka actually does, from a story perspective, have angels serving her. What the hell.
 
And then she massacred all the Manikins. Eh. I told her servants I didn't disagree with their scoffing at the Manikins' fantasies but Chiaki's brutal slaughter is a whole other level. What a bitch.
 
And with the Trumpeter's fall, I can finally go and meet him .I won't lie, I'm super excited. My rationale for my Demi-fiend doing all this is because he finally wants something to go his way. Yuko got her Stone, Isamu makes you release all the Magatsuhi at the Amala Temple and Chiaki just now got a bunch of the stuff too. Basically everyone is using "me" and getting ahead. Well, I have my own back-up plan. I have someone in my corner too.
 
I DID IT. I BEAT BEELZEBUB. Fighting that guy was like pulling teeth because his defense is so huge that you need to buff a bunch just to do vaguely respectable damage. But between me and my ever eliable Tornado and the Mothman's super Almighty attack and a lot of luck, I pulled it off. I had ended up using all my Chakra Drops (I should have bought more but whatever) and a couple Chakra Pots even. Eventually I was like "smurf it" when he started to do his Focus trout again. I was all nice and ready for him to kill me but I was determined to go out in a blaze of pathetic fury. I had everyone just plain old Attack him. Yes, just normal attacks on the super tanky asshole. And then...then he is dead. From one hit from Clotho. My mage healer killed him with one regular attack. I couldn't believe it.
 
Although it appears that story about the Candelabras all being stolen is a deception. A falsehood from THE PRINCE OF LIES? Why I never. That has all long since ceased being important. All that matters is that I "get to the bottom of this." The Lady will anwer all my questions and I can finally speak with "him."
 
Although, can I proceed with the Fourth Kalpa now? A demon told me the key I need to unlock the golden doors is held by his buddy in Tokyo. Do I need that key to get to the fifth kalpa or is it just for treasure?
 
How much more game is there? A random NPC pretty much just said the endgame is nigh and now everyone is chatting it up about Yosuga, Musubi and Shijima.  I have to go through the latest Station and Tunnel stuff to get to some place for reasons I'm not sure of. It's a new area sso I figure I have to go there, basically. Impressive everyone knows Musubi's name since Isamu just made him up....
 
"With your demonic strength, you can no longer be human. You are more dangerous than a wild animal...."
 
And so I have completed the Labyrinth and slain Metatron. I know he said he IS God but you'd think the Big G could show up on his own if it was that important.  I mean, I kicked Metatron's ass. He was way easier than Beelzebub. I guess part of it is me being a higher level and having a better party. Kali is awesome and why I hate using her, Lachesis has buffs I need. I'm gonna use her long enough to get all her skills then find a better demon. I am very picky about my demons - no birds, no blob things, nothing like that. But I couldn't afford to be particular here.
 
I am profoundly curious about the differences between the Demon Ending and True Demon ending. Please don't tell me, it's just something I keep wondering about. I have a save file from before I completed the Labyrinth and I think I should be able to use that to get a different route? Maybe?
 
The thing is...I only like Yuko. What can I say? This game wants to play up your lost humanity that we never saw, lost friends that we never got to know. I have spent this entire game excpt for maybe 30 minutes as a demon. I think of "myself" as a demon. The only people who like you are the Lady and those demons who cheer you on through the Labyrinth.  Even still, I like Yuko and would help her but I dunno how. I gave her the Stone, that's all I've been able to do so far. As for my fellow classmates, they can all go to that prison of souls on the Fourth Kalpa. Bunch of nuts and unlikable jerks.
 
My none-too-subtle segue about the prison though is because I rescued two "powerful souls." Is one of them Futomimi who is now in my party? I have no idea who the other one is.... Trying to think of important people who have died....
 
I guess I am on the TDE route now though? I don't really know what to do... Do I just continue the story by going through the latest tunnel? The one where I had to give up a demon?
 
Think I'll stop for now.  I'm not sure how much game is left, I'm at 66 hours. I defeated Black Frost and I will check up on the digging soul to get my reward. But man, there are still a lot of missing Magatama...
 
On a different note, Metatron's boss theme was okay but it wasn't special. The Fiend boss theme remains by far the best and really the only good one. I wonder what sort of themes the various final bosses will have. Hope they're good. Strange Journey had a really good final boss theme.

[Skyblade]

Ya know, I think Yuko is my favorite character in this game. It's like, I met with Hikawa at the Mantra HQ and he talked about his god and I really liked the fire metaphor for human greed. But his character and his motivation just do nothing for me. I was just clicking through his dialogue in a detached, uninterested way. Same for Isamu. But Yuko....I dunno, she promised me the Magatsuhi so what do I care about the Stone thingy? I agreed to let her have it. She's just...special. I actually care about her.
 
Gave the Thingamabob to Yuko. Got commended for it by another Fiend. Then she died.

Wait, Yuko can die?

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/f/f8/P3_Yuko_Nishi_Render.png

Nooooo, Yuko!

[Forsaken Lover]

So I'm almost done with Nocturne and I am looking ahead to whether I'll be playing P3 or 4 after it.

I'm kinda leaning towards 4 based on the first 5-10 minutes of the respective games. My P3 guy is absolutely hideous.

Also I have the strangest temptation to pick all the jerk responses.

[Forsaken Lover]

So I'll be starting Persona 3 as soon as I can beat Nocturne's real final boss.

So see you in a year. Maybe.

[Forsaken Lover]

So I never did a write-up for Strange Journey either so why not put it all in one post. I can compare and contrast te games, my first two forays into this new JRPG franchise. (Not counting Persona 2)

I played both Nocturne and Strange Journey for about 80 hours. Yet there is only one of these two games I have any intention of replaying in the foreseeable future. Strange Journey was fun but the dungeons make it almost unthinkable for me to replay. That and it didn't exactly have the most compelling plot to kep me hooked. I've been told the SMT games are more about gameplay than story anyway but I still need some story to keep me going. Otherwise, this is just Pokemon and I always get bored of Pokemon and wander off.

Now all that being said, Strange Journey still had its good parts. The stuff to do with Angels and the "Law" route interested me. I appreciate we saw how Zelenin and Jimenez changed, even if it wasn't exactly the best written or most "subtle" thing ever. I think the game's central message of humans are the real monsters doesn't work too well though.

Nocturne's story to me was saved by the Labyrinth, the Lady in Black and Lucifer. I can't believe all that stuff was added in a later version. How were you supposed to know the identity of the little boy who gave you all your power in the original game? But really, the Labyrinth mixes together the addictive gameplay of Nocturne with a compelling narrative and gives the game some focus when it feels like you are otherwise just doing random fetch quests for Hijiri or whoever. Lucifr and the Lady are everything Jimenez wasn't in showing how Chaos is good. Perhaps it's solely due to the fact everyone else is so unlikable but the Chaos reps come out smelling like roses and everything they say makes sense.

I did like Yuko though. I would be interested to hear if people here had favorite characters in this game? It really lacked compelling personalities for most people I will admit which is one of my most prominent criticisms of it. I wanted to see more of...everyone.

Although I will give credit where it's due, Hikawa and Isamu accepted their defeats very gracefully.

Although, to bring it back to comparing SJ and Nocturne, I had heard semi-frequently on various boards about how some RPGs "if the main character dies, automatic game over." At the time I was skeptical of this complaint because in my experience, only Final Fantasy XIII was like that. No other JRPG I had ever played followed that design philosophy. Yet here I am, with two games of "if the MC dies, you auto-lose." I would assume this holds true for all the games?

(Wait, was it insta-game over if Serge died in Chrono Cross? I can't remember... I don't think so)

Now that being said, neither Strange Journey nor Nocturne were as nightmarish as I had been told by the SMT fans I knew. Shin Megami Tensei has a reputation for chewing up and spitting out gamers who come to this series from Final Fantasy or whatever but I'm skeptical about how deserved that reputation is. The games are decently challenging and if you get complacent, you will probably end up dead. But to me it all has to do with perception. As gamers, we have things we take for granted. I watch a YouTuber and streamer by the name of slowbeef who sometimes has his wife play games. I think those videos show just how wide the gulf is between gamers and non-gamers. There are things we see and inherently understand that other people don't.

So sitting here and saying Nocturne is easy is a privilege I have of playing JRPGs for most of my life. Similarly, the guy who scoffs at the things I had trouble with and says "ha! I beat it with solo Demifiend on Hard mode and with only the starter Magatama and I played upside down" also is approaching things from an alien viewpoint to other people. Long story short, game difficulty is entirely subjective.

Now I want to list some of my favorite songs from the two games....

For Nocturne
Labyrinth of Amala (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hsXBl2GsTs) (special props to them for making a slightly more intense version for the Fifth Kalpa.) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pgXqiveXjQ) This song just perfectly captures the feeling of both dread and wonder as you get closer and closer to "him."
Reason Boss Battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq0iTlHHLV8&feature=youtu.be) Shame all the Reason bosses were easy as trout. Except Baal and his bug thing.
Amala Network Battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oOTSWmyP2E&feature=youtu.be) This sounds like something Motoi Sakuraba would compose.

And you all already know how much I loved the Fiend Boss theme. Best song in the whole game IMO. I still say running into Matador is a highlight of the entire game. You really do feel like you're just wandered into Hell completely unprepared and you're about to get ripped apart by a real demon.

Now for SJ, it had so many good battle themes. I think it had a way better final boss theme than Nocturne, to be frank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQuLw1WwTyo

And the regular boss music is way better than Nocturne's as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Rugr05FMM

Might be one of the best normal boss themes I've ever heard.

I'm sorely tempted to go back and try to play the earlier MegaTen games now.... Nocturne has absolutely sold me on the franchise. I have not been so addicted to a video game in ages.

But I have Persona 3 and 4 here and I need to justify the $20 I spent on them, lest they languish unplayed like the the copy of Digital Devil Saga 1 I bought.

[Forsaken Lover]

So Persona 3 is almost as addictive as Nocturne, just in a very different way. I'm glad to see juggling time isn't quite as hard as I was afraid it would be. I'm glad it isn't a Lightning Returns-style time thing.

That being said, I've died so many times in Tartarus now because I just can't stop. Never stop going. Going back feels like such a waste of time and effort. I want more items, more EXP, more everything. My most recent game over was just as Akihiko returned. I felt really confident and promptly stumbled into an ambush that annihilated me.... Those smurfing mages.

In that run I had put some token effort into Academics because Mitsuru-senpai asked me to. She's a favorite character of mine at present (she really reminds me of Erza Scarlet for some reason. I'd prefer a Lucy but Erza will do) so I put in about a week's worth of studying. It didn't seem to help much... So I said smurf it after my game over and spent my time on more productive pursuits. Thanks to the Cafe I got my Charm up to Unpolished (been spending a lot of my free time there) and I also went to the Shrine to get my fortune told about me and Chihiro. Things are looking good for us and I got 10,000 yen. See? Studying is for newbs.

Speaking of which, I also really like "Maya." Glad I played some of Persona 2 before this or I wouldn'tt get any of her opening references.

I joined the Kendo team but blew off Kaz when Chihiro accepted my offer to walk her home... I dunno what happens when you ignore their invite. I did the same for Kenji way back at the start of teh game and he just doesn't really talk to me anymore But he's like, a womanizing jerk.

Hey...I somehow did okay on the mid terms.

Also Kenji wanted to talk to me again but Chihiro approached me at lunch and yeah, I'm not passing up a chance to help her so I can talk wit that dingus. I just hope I'm not losing out on anything.

So basically the Student Council are the best characters in the game. Right now my S Links are highest with Hidetoshi and Chihiro. And if the game would friggin' let me really talk to Mitsuru-senpai, I'd raise that higher too. You know, given the way the game says "check Social Link status" or something whenever you are given the option of hanging out with someone, it's clear they kind of view all of this as some sort of...well, game. Your S Link with Chihiro is high level so you don't need to hang out with her but your level with Kenji is really low so be sure to meet with him. smurf that. Do they think I'm some sort of sociopath? These aren't numbers, they're my buddies. And in Chihiro's case, absolutely adorable and I love her to pieces.


Should I be concerned if my teammates get KO'ed? I mean, in relation to this game's unique mechanics? I just had Akihiko and Junpei get KO'ed during the miniboss at the 35 or 36th floor because I was dumb and missed the little terminal down. As such, we went into the fight unprepared and without saving and I was NOT doing that trout all over again. But now they're Sick and that keeps you from exploring with a full party....

How long is this game though? It's the start of June now, investigating "ghost attacks" that are obviously the actions of Fuuka but I'm more worried about how low all my "social skills are." Charm is still only Rank 2 and Courage and Academics are Rank 1.... I've ignored Academics all game. Is it too late to salvage it? The NPC said Mitsuru-senpai would never notice me unless I leveled up in Academics.... I man, I love Chihiro but still....


Why do I even smurfing bother using buffs in this smurfing dumb game? I just lost to the stupid bosses you get after meeting Fuuka. Good job weakening their offense and upping our defense. And by good job I mean it didn't smurfing do jack or trout. I have to do all that crap all over again.

This game is no Noctruen. Buffs and debuffs are smurfing worthless.

Okay...the bosses weren't that bad, I think Junpei is just under-leveled because he was sick while I explored a lot of the second tier of Tartarus. Then when I got to the limit I could get to, I went and spent all my time doing other things.

My Academics are now Average. Mitsuru-senpai notice me now? (also where did the "notice me senpai" meme come from?)

And I was totally off-base about Fuuka going all Carrie on her bullies and using her Persona to smurf with them... I don't get it though. The Shadows wanted to torment her toromenters?

But yes, it's bout time Mitsuru actually became part of the team. Get to put her in that armor Elizabeth gave me. It's, uh, for the mission. It has the best defense stat of all the armors Ihave....


"Your notion of right and wrong is irrelevant. My client's wishes are all that matter."

I like this guy. He sounds like one of my WRPG Heroes. This whole plotline comes out of nowhere though... From Shadows to weird Internet-inspired assassins.

I think I must have been doing something wrong with the boss on the 59th floor, a wind horse dude or something. None of my attacks did any real damage. All I could find to do was Charm him. That kept him immobilized while we chipped away his health.


There HAS to be a better way to improve Academics. I've been doing nothing but studying for like, two weeks (not counting getting Tired so I can't study), neglecting valuable Social Link and Tartarus grinding time, and I still can't get it to Rank 3. AND THERE'S THREE MORE RANKS TO GO. Everyone is warning me to be prepared for the next full moon in July but I just Academics to get as high as I can for Mitsuru-senpai.... My Charm went up to Rank 3 somehow but Courage is still Level 1. It told me I had to be a badass to help Fuuka with Cooking so yeah, that ain't ever happening. But when I talk to Mitsuru about joining me on a walk home, it doesn't give me any helpful hints.... I just keep studying.

And I know there's something funny going on with Mitsuru because: a) Yukari won't shut up about it and B) The Old Documents mention her family founding a research lab on an island with nothing else but a school on it... So maybe her dad or something was a mad scientist and this is all his fault.

But ya know, the plot of this game is...whatever. I just want Mitsuru to open up to me.

So my game crashing after the hotel Shadow boss made me think maybe it's time to stop. Luckily the two bosses there were really easy so redoing them was no problem. I was all worried over nothing.

So Academics and Charm are at Rank 3. Maxed out Treasurer Social Link. Have utterly neglected every other SL because of obsessing over Academics. Am trying to remember where the hell you buy cat food for one of Elizabeth's requests. I'm sure it was at the school shop...maybe they sell different stuff depending on the day?

Anyway, smurfing love this game. Best songs so far are the school music and the boss music. Although the dorm music is charmingly terrible.

Favorite characters are Mitsuru, Mitsuru and maybe Mitsuru. Akihiko is kinda neat given he's all ~mysterious~ with that Shinjiro guy who apparently used to belong to our little Persona club and who I bet anything will be in our party later on. Chihiro is adorable but when it comes right down to it, I prefer women like Mitsuru. I feel slightly bad Kaz is probably failed his regional sand is a cripple now. Also wonder if it's too late to rekindle the Student Council S Link.

Buffs seem to be becoming slightly better... They do like an extra 30 damage or so with Tarukaja.


And the main plot with Pharos and Shadows and whatever.... Uh...it's okay I guess. I'm more interested in the three new people and whatever Mitsuru is maybe hiding.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

If you have the cash you can play arcade games at Paulownia that will raise your stats in the evenings - depending on the day (Wed and Sat) there's a quiz game that will raise your academics - this seems to be the preferred method of raising stats from what I've read online (because you're not using up afternoons). Also a tip that applies more to the PS2 versions - if you're getting tired a lot you can go to the nurse's office and drink a potion that will raise your courage without spending any time at all - however it won't cure your tiredness.

[Forsaken Lover]

I think my fellow male party members are functionally mentally handicapped. Can they not tell she is not human?

Warning to anyone who plays FES on PSN: The game crashes sometimes if you go to Fuse weapons. I don't know why or how but it's happened to me twice now.

I was at the Mall getting new equipment see and saw the police guy was now selling new, character unique equipment... for 300.000 a pop. I want the ones for Aigis and Mitsuru.... I mean, they're just better armor and all....

So yeah, better touch on Aigis. Betcha didn't expect a robot maid tank did you? I know I didn't. Persona 3 seems like a very silly game. The best comparison I can think of is Final Fantasy IX. There are serious moments and good characters but the overall tone is extremely light. In fact, given Aigis' introduction during a beach episode, I would almost call this game satirical in a way.

But man, I love Aigis. Mitsuru has competition at last.

YES! It was my goal to get Rank 5 in Academics before the August full moon and I did it. I can definitely get to 6 by October. Mitsuru Social Link, here I come! Yukari is okay, Fuuka is okay, but I need that Mitsuru S Link. My playthrough would be woefully incomplete without it.

...now a dog has joined the party? This game is getting downright surreal.

I wonder if Persona 4 is perhaps more..um, tonally consistent and that's why some people like it more. The way I hear it, it's a detective story or murder mystery. Maybe there are no dogs or robots who join you and thus things seem more grounded and you can take them seriously.

And the fifth Old Document puts Shadows in quotation marks. We in a Silent Hill type "they look like monsters to you" situation? Is there a Nier-like New Game+ where it's revealed that tank Shadow we fought was a mom and her child uniting to try and save each other?

YES. Academics Rank 6 and before even the start of September. Mitsuru-senpai Social Link will be mine.

Seems a lot of people don't like Strega. I like Takaya. Cool design and he's voiced by Derek Stephen Prince. I mainly know him as Uryu from Bleach but he has this really wonderful cold, analytical voice. The dub has definitely improved over the course of the game.

So I was just wondering "why the hell is Ken even in this game?" Then, given the scene I just saw where he overheard Akihiko and Shinjiro talking, I remembered people shit on FFXIII by saying Snow's and Hope's subplot is just a ripoff of one of this game's subplot. I doubt that criticism is valid but we'll see.

Devil Social Link is great. I am really glad I worked up my Charm now.

And Shinjiro has joined the party thus giving me a team of characters I really like. Mitsuru, Aigis and now Shinji. His lack of weaknesses is nice but he also lacks debuffs... I miss Akihiko's Torunda or Tarunda or whatever....

Defeated the electric Shadow and now "Chidori" has been captured. It feels like the plot is finally getting started. Some people I talked to say this is "the most backloaded game ever" and I think they're right. I mean, the party member S Links are in the end, there's barely any story up until Strega arrives and overall you probably wouldn't be playing this game for the engrossing narrative. Still, things are picking up - the main characters are evolving, I'm almost to October when I can start getting my Mitsuru S Link, we have actual villains.... It's funny, now there is a purpose to everything on the horizon, the formerly addictive humdrum of everyday life is getting tiresome. If this game is going to have a point, I want it to focus on that. All the little crap I was doing before has no meaning if there is other stuff, ya know?

[Skyblade]

That was a good post. I will want to see if and how your opinion may change.

[Forsaken Lover]

Quick, easy post because stuff actually happened.

Ya know, in spite of the name, this game doesn't seem particularly interested in Jungian psychology. Let's compare and contrast with one of my favorite JRPG series, Xenosaga. Now there is a game obsessed with worldbuilding. One example that comes to mind is how a piece of technology they use is called the EPR Radar so the Database explains about the real life EPR Paradox. P3 by contrast seems to just roll with everything and you should not question why or how. Xenosaga was also a very heavy sci-fi and fantasy setting while in Persona, unless you really like Tartarus for some unfathomable reason, it's a very mundane game. You will spend most of your time just going to the movies or hanging ou twith friends or whatever. Magic and super technology and whatever else is just this amusing distraction from otherwise perfectly normal events that take up 99% of your game time.

But ya know, while this game was pretty much nothing for several long hours, I'm really digging th eJunpei and Chidori scenes because stuff is finally happening, ya know? It's just kind of werid we've seen neither hide nor hair of the other two in forever. Similarly, the Ken and Shinjiro plotline has gone nowhere. This game's pacing is...questionable, to say the least.

So, on music, one of the most important things to me in a great video game. Track 02 in Tartarus' BGM selection is by far the best song but man, it is a TERRIBLE song for dungeoning. The bes tsong for exploring is 01. It has good energy and fits the mood perfectly, unlike the somber paino piece.

The new school music is better than the old IMO. Very different vibe but I like it a lot.

So wait, how old is Shinjiro? There's another school break coming up and everyone is talking about what they'll do but I just noticed Shinjiro there and well, is he just a dropout?

We...fuck. We just had the silliest boss fight yet - probably the most memorable as well - and then Shinji goes and dies... I am sad now.

Although I fail to see much similarity between the Shinji/Ken subplot and the Snow/Hope one, if only because of P3 having somehow managed to be even worse at pacing than FFXIII. You get maybe two cutscenes of this subplot and the second cutscene is the end of it. Ken is also a woefully uninteresting character, introduced way too late for me to give a fuck about him. I will miss Shinji and his death is very well done but it's due to the strength of his character and Takaya's villainy tha tit works .Ken is just a waste of space.

It would have been so easy to just have some scenes of Shinji and Ken at the Dorm together. Come the fuck on, game.

[Skyblade]

Still interesting. I'm going to wait until you're done for any rebuttal.

But, I will say that the pacing on Persona 3 is probably the game's greatest failing.

[Formalhaut]

Yes, I hadn't really thought much about it, but Persona 3 has a horribly back-loaded plot. It doesn't help that you get your final three characters at the end of summer (August), which doesn't leave much in way of character development. Fair enough, one's a dog, so I guess Koro-chan doesn't need​ an amazing story, but the Ken/Shinji dynamic is something the game could've explored in much greater detail than what was given.

[Forsaken Lover]

1...2...3...can we go home now?

Aigis is the best.

Strega's boss fight was pretty easy as I was forewarned. I assume they are actually dead and gone forever but this kind of "death" is very easy to reverse. Still, considering some people I've talked to have said they don't even remember Strega existing, I guess that plotline is over and done with and now the "REAL" story will begin. Only 50 hours into the game.

Oh no, it wasn't the end and Ikutsuki was a villain. I'm shocked.

So Pharos is Death? They split Death itself into the Shadows we beat? I'm sure it will be explained ab it more but at least I'm finally seeing traces of a point to all this. People have told me Persona 3 has a theme of death and acceptance and I've seen maybe faint traces of it up until now. However, in the last half hour, more has happened than in the rest of the game combined. I'm not precisely sure where all this is headed but it's definitely going somewhere now and I appreciate that.

A post from elsewhere on the relevance of each Persona game to one another:

"In terms of how they use the concept of a Persona as a psychological/mythological concept, 1-2-4 are more Jungian. 3 treats it as a superpower with vague connections to the psychological concept. I have no idea how 5 deals with it."

This is kind of what I was getting at earlier.

But yeah, things are happening. In spite of my total lack of surprise at any of these twists, it was all pretty well-done. I hope the game goes into more detail about what exactly was up with Takaya an dJin and their "forcing out" their Personas. I'm guessing it probably would kill them as surely as the stuff Shinjiro was taking would kill you and that's why Chidori is all upset now. That's my guess anyway. I'm not quite sure where her plotline is going, although I don't see it ending well.

I hope I get Mitsuru and Aigis back soon. I can't explore more of Tartarus with only half my team. Everyone else is at least 20 or so levels behind us so it's out of the question trying to use them.

[Skyblade]

The Jung aspect comes in a very meta way. How many Social Links have you done? How many times have you looked for a particular Persona to take with you to get the boost? How many times have you shaped your responses around what would get you the most points, what the person you're talking to reacts most positively, versus "oh, this is what Minato would say"?

There's your psychological aspect. That's basically the definition of a Persona, as Jung presented it. It's the way your ego changes to deal with the outside phenomena of the circumstances you're in.

Persona 3 captures this brilliantly through its game mechanics, transforming this psychological analysis into something that gamers actually experience.




As for Strega: Their Persona manifests unnaturally, and as such, is not fully controlled, and will seek to kill the Persona-user. The drugs allow it to be controlled, but are themselves deadly in the long term. Shinjiro took the drugs to suppress his Persona, to help ensure that the incident was never repeated.

[Fynn]

Yes, I hadn't really thought much about it, but Persona 3 has a horribly back-loaded plot. It doesn't help that you get your final three characters at the end of summer (August), which doesn't leave much in way of character development. Fair enough, one's a dog, so I guess Koro-chan doesn't need​ an amazing story, but the Ken/Shinji dynamic is something the game could've explored in much greater detail than what was given.

It's done way better than when FFXIII copied it later, no matter what you say :p

[Formalhaut]

Yes, I hadn't really thought much about it, but Persona 3 has a horribly back-loaded plot. It doesn't help that you get your final three characters at the end of summer (August), which doesn't leave much in way of character development. Fair enough, one's a dog, so I guess Koro-chan doesn't need​ an amazing story, but the Ken/Shinji dynamic is something the game could've explored in much greater detail than what was given.

It's done way better than when FFXIII copied it later, no matter what you say :p

Hey, I said nothing about FFXIII. Well, I have, but not here. I think. I don't know, this is a long thread. I will agree that Persona 3 does it better, mainly because the pacing of escalation is done better. From about October onwards, the pulse of the story really escalates, and the plot really starts churning out some hard-hitting scenes. FFXIII's main flaw is that the pulse quickens in Chapter 9, then deadens from the admittedly tedious Chapter 10 Ark segment, before building again from late Chapter 11. It's too uneven.

[Fynn]

Honestly, though, the pacing of P3 never bothered me. I think it's kind of fitting that you're spending your days just blissfully unaware of everything, making friends, taking part in school stuff, and then BAM everything hits you on the head and nothing is ever the same for anyone for different reasons.

I also really like the organic dynamic between the party members. In that, they're really all in this together not because they're all now such great friends that love each other no matter what (ahem, P4, take notes), so they have their conflicts with each other, trouble communicating, etc. I always felt the characters here were much more human than what we get in P4, or in most other games that focus on characters in general. Your character's relationship with Junpei may not be as pleasant and heartwarming as the one you have with your bro in P4, but it feels real and you can tell his issues don't really circle around you but are just part of something much greater that he's been struggling with for much longer than from the point you entered the story.

Also, I don't hate Ken. He may be a bit withdrawn and not able to act upon all the things he has in him regarding Shinji, but it really makes sense for a kid who's lost his mom, found out the whole Persona shebang and who kind of has to live with kids much older than him now. He's gonna keep to himself, what can you do?

[Formalhaut]

To be honest, the pacing didn't bother me when I was playing it. I think on reflection, there was improvement to be made, but it is by no means the worst offender of pacing in gaming. it's a niggle, but not a major flaw in my opinion. My favourite games have niggles.


Also, I don't hate Ken. He may be a bit withdrawn and not able to act upon all the things he has in him regarding Shinji, but it really makes sense for a kid who's lost his mom, found out the whole Persona shebang and who kind of has to live with kids much older than him now. He's gonna keep to himself, what can you do?

I actually didn't mind Ken either. There was this weird thing in the Fem!MC path though where you could pursue a romance with him, which myself and Mr. Carny kinda... laughed at.

[Fynn]

It's still made super innocent in the English version.

And honestly, it's not that I think the pacing "needs work" or anything - it is what it is. If you enjoy it, it's good. There is no one way to make a well-paced game. There are different types of pacing and they work to achieve different things. You may consider it a bad thing from a gameplay standpoint that you get characters late, but it helps reinforce the narrative.

[Skyblade]

I didn't have much of a problem with the overall pacing of how loaded the story is towards the back, TBH. Mostly because, when you do get to the heavy story points, the whole game unfolds beautifully and all fits together brilliantly (including those earlier slower parts).

My pacing problem is more the way the game punishes you for constant visits to Tartarus.

Honestly, I think the game would have played a lot better with no punishments for going every day. Make each day a little bit of Tartarus and a little bit of Social Links. Instead, because you are blocked off from your nightly activities, your crew gets sick, etcetera, you're encouraged to spend as much time in there at once as you can, do everything you can during one night, and then have really long days and days of just Social Links.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

I thought Tartarus was handled a lot better in P3P because it doesn't seem like you ever get tired/sick so basically you can balance Tartarus and Social Links much more freely. At one point though I was spending so much time on Social Links that Mitsuru forced me to go to Tartarus. xD

[Forsaken Lover]

What is with the whole "slap them to calm them down"? I mean, if someone you know is upset, do you hit them? Reminds me how in Persona 2 Innocent Sin Maya is freaking out at one point and to help her you are given the binary choice of either slapping her or gently calming her down. Who would choose slap?

Still, Mitsuru's "resolution scene" was great. I love the music for the new Personas/maxed Social Link. I also love her new battle dialogue. It's so much more emotional and aggressive. The new battle dialogue for the characters is just a really nice touch in general.

And Chidori just died... Is there a way to save her then?

I love the "Hangout" music. Jump around, jump around, jump around now.

So I was right about Ryoji being Pharos but I was also underestimating the extent of the twist. Now everyone is freaking out but I want to know what happened to Aigis.

Also the Mitsuru Social Link is bulltrout. It's literally impossible to max it out. You can only do it after the class trip and she's only available to a couple days. But you lose out on 3 or 4 days for Career Week and now this trout with the end of the world AND exams is eating up pretty much all of December. This game is over in January, right? smurf.

So the Good/Bad end thing seems easy enough. Kill or don't kill Ryoji. I hear it's a lot trickier in Persona 4 as it's based on multiple decisions. Plus there's a Good Ending, a True Ending and a Golden Ending. What the smurf.

But right now I'm just irritated because I feel like I messed up with Chidori and Mitsuru-senpai won't ever think of me as more than a friend.... I'm gonna be like that one NPC girl who is in love with her but just spends her days standing in the hall.

[Fynn]

In P4 it's a bit simpler because the Golden Ending is basically just an additional epilogue to the True Ending that you get if you max a very annoying social link and do an optional dungeon. The True Ending is pretty frustrating, but you get more clues as to how to get it in the Golden rerelease. And it's not really affected by your choices in the game itself as it depends on you doing some very specific things at the end of the Good Ending path.

So yeah, Overall it's a doozy.

[Formalhaut]

But right now I'm just irritated because I feel like I messed up with Chidori and Mitsuru-senpai won't ever think of me as more than a friend.... I'm gonna be like that one NPC girl who is in love with her but just spends her days standing in the hall.

I'm not an expert on the Masc!MC path, but I'm pretty sure you cannot save Chidori in the game. Same goes for Shinji. Having played the Fem!MC in P3P, you can save Chidori and Shinji.

[Fynn]

Nope, you can still save her as a guy, as long as you're playing FES or P3P. Shinji will bite it if you're not a girl romancing him tho

[Formalhaut]

Nope, you can still save her as a guy, as long as you're playing FES or P3P. Shinji will bite it if you're not a girl romancing him thoOh, I didn't know you could save her even playing the original story. I'm not sure about Shinji though. When I played P3P as a girl, I ended up romancing Akihiko and still saved him. I maxed his S.Link, though.

[Fynn]

You sure you weren't romancing both?

I had like three boyfriends

[Forsaken Lover]

I was curious and looked it up. You need to motivate Junpei 3 times. I only did it once because i never talk to him because there's almost no point to talking to any of your buddies in this game outside of S Links. They just have the same stock dialogue day after day.

Still, leaving her dead makes the most sense. I thought this game was about accepting death. That's basically what Ryoji's choice is about, too. Reviving her seems like it undermines this.

[Fynn]

Completely free. But fans complained. So they added a "fix".

[Formalhaut]

I mean, it makes thematic sense to leave Chidori and Shinji to their fate. But I can't abide by such tragedy.

As for romancing both, I mean, I certainly didn't intend to romance Shinjiro, and the dialogue didn't seem to indicate romance on his S.Link. Eh, I don't know. The important thing is, I saved him, and that's what counts! :D

You can tell I prefer P4 in the P3/P4 battle.

[Fynn]

People nowadays really misuse the word "tragedy" :roll2

what is tragic, imo, is that in spite of being fans of this game, people still can't really apply its message to themselves. They can't let go and accept death for what it is and want to "save" the characters from it, despite the fact that they'll die sooner or later anyway. And the fact that, you know, they're fictional, so it should be easier to accept and you should use this opportunity to learn how to deal with the emotional impact of people dying around you? Because you know, you can't just hit certain flags and "save" people from ever dying irl.

That's the reason I like P3 so much more in this case - it's just so much more than blind, feel-good escapism(even though it offers that as well).

[Formalhaut]

what is tragic, imo, is that in spite of being fans of this game, people still can't really apply its message to themselves. They can't let go and accept death for what it is and want to "save" the characters from it, despite the fact that they'll die sooner or later anyway. And the fact that, you know, they're fictional, so it should be easier to accept and you should use this opportunity to learn how to deal with the emotional impact of people dying around you? Because you know, you can't just hit certain flags and "save" people from ever dying irl.

You mean I can't save my terminally ill grandmother by maxing out her Social Link? :roll2

[Fynn]

Didn't think you'd back out so easily!

[Forsaken Lover]

I knew  i was right to love Aigis. The best scene in like the whole game was her finally returning to the group. Her voice-actress hit it out of the park. They all did, really. This game has come a long way since the start when I felt everyone was a bit soulless. I also have to wonder if Ryoji's voice being the same as the protagonist's is intentional. (it's clearly Yuri Lowenthal doing all those grunts in battle. I'm onto you, Sasuke)
 
The new music for the Dorm is also fantastic and provides a great atmosphere.
 
Overall, the start of January has really revitalized me. As I said, I was getting kinda sick of the game because it was just dragging. But now things feel alive and they are coming to a head.
 
 So I had some real heartbreaks with getting BS game overs right b efore I got to the last guardian. Fucking bug things killed me with Akasha Arts or whatever when I tried to escape.  I should have just used Trafuri but I don't like to waste SP. But well, I learned my lesson and just Trafuri's my way right back to the top. I lost out on a rare new staff but I guess I'll live. I barely attack any more anyway. I let Mitsuru do everything and just heal.
 
 Poor Aigis seems obsolete. She just has Fatal End and Heat Wave. What the fuck.
 
Fight with Death Round 1 ended with failure because I'm a fucking moron. I  should have switched over to Abaddon to keep me safe from all his physical attacks but no, I accidentally just ended my turn and he promptly killed me with Vorpal Blade. Fuck. I was so close to, had him down to maybe 25% HP.  But I'm not resting until this SOB is dead. He's plagued my entire game.
 
Also Aigis has the revive with full HP spell. She is awesome. I take back what I said.
 
Round 2 ends in failure, was even less close to winning than 1.
 
Ya know it's also really annoying having to wait around for the asshole to show up, even though I do othe rthings while waiting.
 
Had him down to a sliver of HP in my fourth or fifth attempt when, guess what, his Attack reverted and he immediately used Megidolaon. It didn't help the fight was taking forever because I had to nerf Mitsuru's damage output in order to keep her alive.
 
 The weakness system in this game is so fucked up because there's nothing you can do about it except stack equipment on the person and then pray. I had to put two pieces of equipment on Mitsuru so she could actually dodge his fire attacks. Otherwise he just used her as a punching bag all match and kept getting extra turn after extra turn.
 
Abaddon is a great help in this fight, especially since I have Null Light on him but we just can't do any real damage to the bastard. It's all just slowly chipping away at him because, as I said, I had to nerf Mitsuru in order to keep her alive. But that just drags out the battle which gives him ample opportunities to wipe us all out with bullshit Almighty spells.
 
What's also bullshit is how buffs wear off in this game. It makes your teammates waste turns and it makes me incredibly frustrated when my turn comes around and it says "Defense Down" and I know this means that defense will be down for all my teammates too but I can't do shi tabout it except let it all fade away and give the enemy a free turn to take a shot at my weakened party members.
 
I dunno, I was determined to beat the boss but what's the point when it can literally all fall apart in a second through no fault of your own?
 
I miss Nocturne. And Strange Journey even. I was so excited about the endgame with its great new music and atmosphere but now I'm just irritated.

IMO, Persona 3 easily has the worst combat of any SMT game I've played.

[Fynn]

That it does

[Formalhaut]

Your teammates are definitely the weak link in this game.

[Fynn]

Not really the teammates, just the fact that status buffs run out so quickly. Usually MegaTen games have them last until the end of the battle or until someone dispels them.

That, and I think the Once More/All-Out attack is a flashier yet mechanically weaker and less interesting version of the press-turn system.

[Formalhaut]

Yeah, the buffs are plenty weaker in Persona games, and I do agree with you about the mechanical weakness of the Once More system. Having said that, Persona 5 is meant to improve it in places, so I'm excited to see what happens with that.

[Fynn]

I think the fact that everyone gets both guns and swords again, two elements are coming back from previous installments and there's demon negotiation again, I think it's safe to say P5 is already shaping up to be more interesting mechanically.

[Skyblade]

Not really the teammates, just the fact that status buffs run out so quickly. Usually MegaTen games have them last until the end of the battle or until someone dispels them.

That, and I think the Once More/All-Out attack is a flashier yet mechanically weaker and less interesting version of the press-turn system.

I actually think that both are, overall, positive additions.

Buffs lasting indefinitely greatly overpowers them in any long fight. Adding in Dispels just tends to make them less useful overall, because any boss who can Dispel will mean you just wasted your turns/SP.

While I don't particularly care for the way the buff system runs out in P3 (as said, being forced to wait a turn without them because you can't renew the duration and they drop off each character one at a time), I think it's generally better practice than "cast this spell once and be objectively better for the next thirty turns of a boss fight". You could also tweak how long they lasted, but I overall think that the duration system added more mechanically, and precisely manipulating buffs and thinking through how they affect your team offered a huge degree of strategy to some fights.

Also, I'm having trouble remembering the mechanics of Persona 3 versus Persona 4 here, so I'm not sure which game the following paragraph is accurate for (or if it's for one of the remakes): I think that All-Out-Attacks were almost inherently better than the base Press/Turn system, the problem is they were overpowered. The mechanical merit is because of a mechanic which a lot of people don't even realize is there: If you strike an enemy with their weakness a second time, they have to waste a turn getting back up (which I believe was a part of the original Press/Turn system). Thus, you had a choice: You could choose to stun enemies, dealing less damage overall, but keeping them from attacking you, or you could deal heavier damage, but allow them to follow up. The problem was, All-Out-Attacks did such heavy damage that it was almost always better to use them over stunning the enemy. While this could help end trash fights quicker, it did steal away some of the mechanical depth, and the option to stun was frequently forgotten about on the higher-health threats (or they had no weakness that could be reliably exploited).

[Formalhaut]

If I remember correctly: In Persona 4 could you extend buffs by reapplying them? I'm sure I remember applying buffs and having it said it lasts longer.

[Forsaken Lover]

So what exactly is the point of "Monad"? I got so many Game Overs here. I made it up to 10F once and got a completely unsatisfactory amount of Yen and that was it.

In happier news, I love Mitsuru's S Link. She has the most adorable "sad face" ever. Don't worry my love, I will rescue you from that creepy old Japanese guy you are betrothed to. Pay no mind to Chihiro, that's long over. And Elizabeth, well, no one even knows about what happened with Elizabeth I guess. (man, what an unexpected scene that was)

Ya know, I wouldn't have to worry about maxing any S Link if you and your fellows interacted like human beings. I know it's been a long time since I was in school but I seem to recall having the ability to spedn tieme with people outside of school. Like, maybe during a winter break? Okay, enough being coy or clever or whatever. It's smurfing stupid I can't spend time with Mitsuru or Aigis on these no school days. It makes no sense, just like how Mitsuru or Yukari will give you a phone call to ask to hang out on Sundays. WE LIVE IN THE SAME DAMN BUILDING.

Stupid me, I thought this game could be fun in terms of gameplay. I had ONE piece left to form Beelzebub. Just smurfing ONE. Lilith. That's all I need. But no, this game won't let me fuse her no matter what I try. I grind and I grind and I grind, I get up to Level 84, can form the ultimate Empress Persona, but no Lilith. I've made every high-level monster I can and still nothing.

Tch, I'm not looking it up either. If I can't make it on my own, it's not worth having and this game is stupid. I just thought, given I have every other monster to fuse into Beelzebub, it would be cool. But I guess not.

And now I'm probably overleveled for the final boss. I look forward to the unbeatable Nyx being entirely beatable tomorrow.

I should have just finished up the Mitsuru and Aigis SL's and ended this dumb game. I mean, I did finish Mitsuru's and it was every bit as swee tas I had hoped, but I could have probably beaten the game in the time I spent fruitlessly grinding. I just don't like setting a goal for myself and then failing miserably.


Oh and the new school music blows.

I really just need to finish this game because I'm growing more and more sour on it as I fail to finish it.

[Skyblade]

To make Lilith, you need a Cross Spread special fusion, and to unlock it, you need to have completed Mission 48 for Elizabeth.

Also, the point of Monad is the gear that shows up in the golden chests, and the optional superboss available from the final mission who rests at the bottom of the block.

[Formalhaut]

Yeah, Monad is definitely endgame content. Some enemies there can be brutal.

[Forsaken Lover]

So in case it wasn't obvious, I was kind of burnt out on Persona 3. I'm taking a break.

I just did Destinyland in Digital Devil Saga 1. There's a faint whiff of a plot here butit's even more remote than in Nocturne. I was told this is the most linear and standard JRPG in the SMT series. Maybe it is standard and I'm just not used to dungeon crawlers.

Battle system is interesting. I like that I have permanent access to every skill I learn and not just six or seven of them. It's just that my team seems like a bunch of psychopaths apart from Argilla and Cielo but I don't like Cielo so Argilla and Sera are the only characters I can really stand.

Normal battle music is fantastic. Although Strange Journey is beginning to seem like the odd one out with its "traditional" orchestral score. Nocturne and DDS love the rock and Persona 3 was very hip-hop inspired.

o4dWX0bMaqQ

[Fynn]

The whole point of these games is that everyone starts out as a psychopath but suddenly get the capacity to feel. DDS kind of explores the notion of growing empathy, which makes it one of my absolute favorites.

[Forsaken Lover]

I have my PSTV and P4G will be here tomorrow!

I jus tneed to finish P3
And Digital Devil Saga
And Innocent Sin

....

o4dWX0bMaqQ

I think this is my favorite normal battle theme so far. Ironic because I hear DDS2's is a fan favorite for best.

[Fynn]

DDS2 does have an awesome remix of it used as a boss theme, though

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As a general rule, I think DDS1 has the better dungeon themes, while DDS2 has the better battle themes.

[Formalhaut]

Heh, I wonder how many people bought a PSTV just to play P4G. I know that's what I did.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

Well I bought a Vita primarily for P4G, and I wasn't even as big a fan of the series yet as I am now.

[Forsaken Lover]

I like the final boss themes. They kept me awake as I dropped Thunder Reign's and Megidolaon's on Nyx Avatar for a half hour or whatever. Shame I didn't get Satan's last skill since it seems a lot stronger but I didn't know that until I looked up how to spell Megidolaon.

What if you didn't master a single Social Link all game? Who "reaches out to you" then to give you the power?

So it obviously doesn't matter but I sometimes muse on how the Persona people would be like, ripped apart by the main SMT dudes, especially the Demifiend. But now, P3 Guy has the power of the universe at his disposal. He could maybe beat the other protagonists now?

Earlier I was speculating about Persona protagonists and typical SMT alignments. This game is super duper Neutral. The whole Cult thing, our heroes constantly mocking "believe and you will be saved", Aigis' ending speech about "Thinking for yourself... Not running away... Accepting the inevitable..."

I'm not sure I agree with your Aesop, game. Although, peculiarly, I'm reminded of the one dialogue choice worth anything in DDS. Argilla is freaking out and asking you about WHAT IS THE POINT OF IT ALL and you can reply "Maybe we live to determine how we die."

So am I dead? That's gonna be a lovely surprise. They cut out right as the joyous reunion is cut short by the corpse.

I kinda suspected he'd die because he's likened a lot to Jesus and what did Jesus do but die. I'm joking obviously but you get my meaning.

And that's Persona 3. My thoughts? I'm hungry and will give my thoughts on the whole game after I eat and have time to reflect.

[Forsaken Lover]

http://i.imgur.com/rI2MBjf.jpg

[Fynn]

Regarding alignment - it's interesting to note that the Persona games follow a pattern. In P1 and both parts of P2, the big bad embodies typical Chaos values, in P3 and P4 they are Neutral (death is hardly law or Chaos, isn't it), and from what I heard of P5's story (and, sadly, I've been spoiled on a lot) you're going against Law.

[Formalhaut]

Fynn's assessment makes sense; I'm pretty sure he told me that as well before. Persona 3 is all about fighting against nihilism, finding a meaning and reason for living.

[Forsaken Lover]

Chie: HOW ARE WE GONNA GET HOME?!!!

Me: We're doomed.

I got my Understanding increased just a second ago for asking how they were doing after our little trip but I just couldn't pass up the chance to say this.

But man, this game is so much fun already. Everyone is so lively and chummy. I know some people overreact to P3's party having tension between certain members and they say they all hated each other but while I think that's totally false, it was a pretty serious group. Granted, a lot of serious shit was going down. But right now, it feels like everyone is Junpei. Except Yukiko. I like her. And Unfriendly Girl. Where the hell di she go?

But man, I think Yu is mentally challenged. Who sticks their head into anything they don't know about, let alone a TV?

Dojima is the killer, isn't he? The person in charge of investigating the murders is always the killer.

Man, Shadow Yosuke was annoying for literally the first boss of the game. I had to waste allthe items I had. Well, I have one or two Medicines left but I'm damn lucky his last attack missed because I was pretty much dead as I accidentally used the SP restoration item instead of a Medicine.

So Margaret basically said I have to form a lot of Social Links in order to find the killer and get the best ending? That right?

Me: -gets bit-]

Chie: You okay?

Me: I think I'm gonna cry....

I'm gonna make the sorriest hero ever. Everyone is so frickin' nice here, why not play everything up for sympathy from cute girls and boys?

Seriously, everyone loves transfer students in these games.

I had to use two of my three Revival Beads in the Shadow Chie fight, too. Even with Rekunda the fight took forever. I should have bought more medicine but I was pretty much broke after buying our shitty new weapons.

Also I totally forgot Direct Command existed in this game. I was just looking at teh freshly acquired Tactics Menu during the boss and then saw "hey, I can control him myself now!" Then again, I had far less to complain about P3's AI than other people. It was better than FFXIII or XIII-2. Then again, those are harder games. Well, XIII-2 isn't hard per se but it's different. In XIII-2, your monsters are all better than you whereas in Persona 3, you're better than all of your party. So relying on AI in XIII-2 could be tricky while in P3, you're doing all the heavy lifting anyway.

Also I forgot to mention I met Marie. Some people I have talked to seem to dislike her. I wonder if it's because she's the new charactr on the block.

Also there's a lot more to do in this game than Persona 3. Fishing, part-time jobs, gardening... This game seems to love gardening. I mean, Teddie even gave me those seeds along with combat items. I can only assume these things help develop your Social Skills. I had hoped that was a mechanic they eliminated or simplified but NOPE. There are even MORE of them. It took forever just focusing on two of them in 3..... What the hell is Expression anyway?

I was promised there was no Reaper in this game and thus I could explore freely. Yet I know for a fact I heard, when leaving on my first day of training, the unmistakable sound of chains rattling and a creepy rattling breath as well. I waited around at the entrance to see if he popped up but nothing happened for a solid minute or two and I wasn't about to go looking for an unbeatable super boss.

What a nightmare Shadow Yukiko was... I lost my first attempt because I didn't come with any Personas that had Bufu. Apart from Chie's, obviously. Then when I reloaded, I forgot I had gotten items for healing and went to the TV World and saved here...with like, 2 Medicines. So needless to say, i felt boned. I was fairly certain this was the last day I had to save Yukiko and this was confirmed when I decided to jus tsay screw it and try to go back. They found her body and I felt bad and reloaded. Anyway, I managed to scrape a win against the boss thanks to the power of buffs, debuffs and the fact I at least had a lot of Revival Beads.

But man, this game is super frickin' stressful and I don't mean just because of the amped up difficulty. The time management in this game is brutal. I tried to do as much as I could but I still only managed to get two Social Links to Rank 2 and read that entire book that increased your Knowledge gain. I got a part-time job but never did it, I haven't figured out how to fish or garden, I have no idea where Yosuke or Chie are so I can talk to them and increase their Social Links... Overall, I barely managed to save Yukiko while accomplishing very little else. Money is also so tight in this game, I can't afford new weapons for anyone. I barely got new armor for Yosuke, I can probably get it for Chie now I guess thanks to the boss' Yen drop but even still....

Overall, this game is pulling me in so many different directions. It's very stressful.

And I think I'll stop there for now. Tired.

Game is pretty fun. A lot more going on in Inaba than wherever P3 was. I am glad Yukiko has retured and is part of the party. Although at present I think I like every character about equally. Yosuke is like a likable Junpei. Chie is kinda whatever but she has a wonderful battle stance.

I have to be as sweet as possible to poor Nanako. I agreed to go on that trip wit her and Dojima, although I'm not even sure if it was really optional. I figure I must be able to learn to cook to help Nanako out.

School music is excellent. I love the normal TV World music and wish it played in the dungeon part.

Any answers to my questions or advice be welcome.

[Fynn]

The Reaper won't appear in the dungeon like in 3, BUT he'll appear in chests, very occssionally. You'll be warned and asked like three times before you open that chest, so don't stress.

And Marie... ugh... Yeah, I know a lot of people who do like her, actually. I don't. Her only redeeming feature in my eyes is her voice because Eden Riegel is up there with Laura Bailey (who is also in this game!!) and Cassandra Morris as brilliant VAs who can do no wrong. I'll go into detail as to why she annoys me later on, so as to avoid spoilers. And to be fair, I was excited to see what she'd bring to the table, so it's not exactly that I was against the idea of a new character!

(I also can't for the life of me understand how anyone could consider XIII hard but that's irrelevant to the discussion >.>)

[Forsaken Lover]

So...bizarrely, the Fox bothers me less than Koro did. Maybe I just grew accustomed to how wacky Persona is?

Nanako is Justice huh? Then just like last game Justice will see me through the game. Definitely gonna be working on that way.

Everything feels so much more "organic" here. I loved that you could go hang with Nanako, Yosuke and your athlete buddies all at once like, ya know, normal people.

Heh, I was bamboozled about where to get a Fishook...until I looked it up. But for smurf's sake, it's timed. I went to the jewel trading place every night anyway but as soon as I looked it up and then went there, the necessary event happened. So I wasn't slow about being able to fish, I just literally could not have done it until now apparently.

Finally got to Gardening, too. Yay.


So I forgot to mention the SOS system or whatever. That's a pretty frickin' neat feature. I'll never use it but its mere existence is laudable. Having the ability to help other people avoid a game over is awesome, even if I doubt anyone is still around to save the poor newbies like myself.

Nanako: I made flowers for my mom but I don't have one so what should I do with them?

Option C: Give them to me.

Jesus, what a dickhea


Awww... I paired with Yukiko for the stakeout but I didn't have enough Courage to say I'd protect her. I don't care if it is inconsequential, I hate when I can't do what I want. Balancing everything in this game is still a pain in the ass. I also didn't have enough Expression to continue the Dojima S Link. Frustrating.

My trip to the TV World was positively luxurious at least. Until I got to that Shadow where Shadow Yukiko was. He annihilated me.

Also Kanji is like, super gay. Somebody told me he wasn't "in spite of what the Internet says" but this is not even remotely subtle or ambiguous. Short of them utilizing the M Rating to the max and saying "stick a huge cock in my ass", it couldn't be more obvious. And that's fine. I don't know why someone would try to argue this.

smurf I tried everything, I can't beat the Wealth Hands. They're too tough. They resist all elements and take almost no damage from physical attacks. I keep running into them an dI keep failing to beat them. I smurfing need money, too.

Maybe they are vulnerable to Hama and Mudo....? I just thought of this now. Goddammit.

Well, I managed to beat one. Hama wasn't working so I desperately looked at my items list. I had randomly procured a few items and I just now realized they do fixed damage. So resistant to Fire or not, I still do 50 points of damage with a Firecracker. Is that the trick?

Has anyone here used the Retry function? I felt really lame when I had to but I didn't want to lose 20 or so minutes of grinding because an enemy opened up with an attack that oneshotted me.

There's absolutely no excuse for party leader death = instant game over in these games anyway.

I saved Kanji a few days early. Yay. I'm trying to bang out my attributes so I can get the best jobs and also focus on Social Links. Proving to be difficult and frustrating. There's so much to do in this game and, unlike P3, I kinda want to do it all. I dunno what it is...there's a charm here I felt lacked in 3. Everything feels alive, ya know? I still can't stop raving about combined Social Link outings because they make so much sense and make everything so much more believable. In 2, Social Link events might as well happen in their own little universe where it was just you and the other person. Why Empress never did anything even though Mitsuru was in love with me.

So I am trying to remember what names I know from 4.... I get the feling the party is nowhere near as big as 3's. But I mean, it has to be larger than just me, Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko and soon-to-join Kanji. I know of Rise of course but she's like, the navigator so she replaces Teddie, she isn't another playable person. I usually stick with a core team of my favorites but I still appreciate large casts because it increases the odds I'll find a character I love to play as.

But man, I love the party member S Link skills. Being able to instantly eject or knock down an enemy is very useful. Plus Chie and Yukiko have some weird combo move they usually use when our All Out Attack fails and it's jus tenough to finish off whatever we were fighting. But overall, it all just feels very....I dunno what the word for it is. It creates a great atmosphere of comradeship. Everything about the game does that so the gameplay integrating with the cutscenes is good storytelling.

In terms of S Link Progress, I have everyone around 3 except Marie who is 4 and Yukiko who is only 2. No Kanji yet. Hermit is still 1. Does leveling that up make the Fox charge you less for healing? If so, I need to get on that.

I'm now rather interested in what will happen with Marie. I wonder if this is "become a real girl" situation.

Oh and Adachi or whoever is still only Rank 1. I was told to chat him up but... I don't care about him. He could be the killer for all I know but right now, he's just a bumbling sidekick and not a particularly endearing one.

Why is everyone in this game so adorable?! First Marie was Unfriendly Girl but now she talks in this sweet ihateyoubutnotreally way, Yukiko was serious and uptight but now she has the giggles and Kanji went from foul-mouthed ass to potentially a bigger kid than Yosuke.

I keep forgetting to ask, does what I say after the Shadow bosses matter? You always get the same dialogue options to comfort whoever it is. Basically "everyone is like that", "it's only a part of you" and one more. I always pick "everyone is like that." Except one time... I think with Yukiko I said something different.

So Yukiko takes the lead over the other party members with S Link Rank 4. I also finally managed to get Courage and Diligence up to Rank 3. I would guess I need at least Rank 4 for everything and I should aim for Rank 5 in Knowledge, Courage and Understanding. After that, smooth sailing for everything. It will be a lot more fun I will tell you. I feel so pressured right now. I stopped right after the disastrous Okina trip to try and execute Yosuke's plan and before the class outing thing. It's like, middle of June I think. Everyone tells me I have plenty of time for everything, especially since Golden apparently lengthened the calendar time you get, but I still feel put upon. I'm basically Tweak from South Park.

Also I went to do the Daycare job and got a cutscene out of nowhere. I figured it was just for money. I am intrigued but I haven't been able to go back there yet. Do Iget a S Link with that kid's stepmom? I will have to go back.

Also I really have to repeat this song is way better than the actual dungeon music.
3_cp4g7YGic

Speaking of which, the normal battle music is way better than the boss music. What's up with how generic the boss music is?

I think the town theme is my favorite song in the game... That or the above track.

P.S.

Forgot to mention how great it is to see my old buddy Tanaka again. Him and his great theme song.

[Fynn]

Ugh.... Kanji's issues are something that really has little to do with sexuality and more with society's expectations of masculinity. I would know. I was there.

Also, in all further installments in the series that he appears, he's blatantly confirmed to have an enourmous crush on a female character.


Could he be bi, pan, or anything else - of course. But the fact remains that his personal struggles and issues have way less to do with sexuality than it is initially presented. That is more for shock value, imo.

You'll notice that one of the tropes on his TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Persona4TheInvestigationTeam) page (and remember that's a collaborative wiki, not just one person noticing it or anything) listed is "Ambiguously Bi" (proceed at your own risk, though. Spoilers are generally marked but some aren't)

[Formalhaut]

I would say given what we end up knowing about Kanji, I'd say he was bisexual, or at least bicurious. Honestly though, Fynn is right. The questions over Kanji's sexuality is more of a vehicle to drive discussions about masculinity and how Kanji subverts some aspects of the dominant hegemonic masculinity that is present in society.

Besides a few gags and jokes (including a very questionable scene at that camping event), Kanji's sexuality isn't really brought up much after he is recruited.

[Fynn]

Oh yeah. Kanji might not be gay, but Yosuke is definitely a raging homophobe.

[Formalhaut]

I remember viewing that scene in the tent, really wanting there to be a dialogue choice where I call out Yosuke's homophobia and allow Kanji to stay, but there's no such option. :(

[Forsaken Lover]

Well I guess I'll be the judge of all that later today.

In the meantime, I realize I was ragging on 3 a bit in my post so I wanna be fair.

tE05-_6DRro

This is a way better boss theme IMO.

[Formalhaut]

I actually like both battles themes for different reasons. Master of Shadows is slightly more subdued and more ominous. I'll Face Myself has a pleasing guitar section and has some great orchestrations and covers of it.

[Fynn]

I'll Face Myself has a fantastic remix on the Reincarnation album, tho

EDr_krEQNrU



Still, Rivers in the Desert blows everything out of the water. Haven't played P5 yet, but damn, is this an unexpectedly magnificent boss theme or what

KukSVxgsQkg

[Formalhaut]

Is Rivers in the Desert the regular boss theme, or like the endgame boss theme? Regardless, agreed with Fynn. It is perfectly dramatic.

[Fynn]

Pretty sure it's more like a "serious super unique emotional boss battle" theme. Not sure what the regular boss theme is.

[Formalhaut]

Pretty sure it's more like a "serious super unique emotional boss battle" theme.

Yeah, that's the one. :p

Honestly, I prefer it. I don't want the regular boss theme to be too emotional. If that's right, I think Rivers in the Desert is perfectly placed.

[Forsaken Lover]

So pardon the lack of updates. My PC died and now all I have is my PS4. It makes it a pain to keep everyone updated on my progress. Right now I'm on September 20th and I'll summarize notable progress/events/thoughts:

1. Shadow Teddie was a pain but mainly because I was under-leveled. Once that was fixed I destroyed him. All glory to Ose an dPowe rCharge/Atom Smasher.

2. Rise's and Mitsu's dungeons had the best dungeon music. The 8-bit version of Face Myself is the best thing.

3. I'm not a huge fan of Rise. I like girls who are flirty and cute and I even like idols. But Rise doesn't do it for me. I also resent how the game seems to be pushing her on me. I don't want to be with her, although I am of course doing her S Link for both story and practical reasons. I hear she makes the game super broken.

4. Teddie's voice doesn't fit a human. Although calling him human is maybe a stretch... Still, it fit a cartoon bear thing, not Mr. Bishie. I don't think I'll ever use him in battle. I don't hate him but I also don't really like him.

5. Speaking of pretty "boys" I am annoyed at Naoto being a girl. So Kanji isn't gay, fine. But why couldn't Naoto just be a prety guy? I managed to save him in one night, though! Also first time I've used Kanji all game. Gained 20 levels. Bless Power Charge and Chie's Revolution, they are indispensable in taking down the Golden Hands.

6. Social Link Progress: Yosuke and Yukiko maxed, Chie at 8, Dojima and Nanako at 6, Marie at 6, Rise at 3, Adachi and Kanji at 1 (hope to remedy before this November deadline) and I'm also really interested in the Temperence S Link with Eri. But that can be put of until later so I only have a couple levels in that. Oh and 3 levels in Devil. Hot nurse courgars, yay.

7. The beach episode was amazing, as was the King's Game. It was a joy to hear Joy again and to see Chihiro. But yeah, the bond between our heroes is why I love this game so much. I care so deeply for every single one of them.



And...spoiled. By a YT comment for Mitsuo's boss music. "Why did Nanako have to be evil?" Thanks for the irrelevant comment , jackass.

[Fynn]

That was a troll comment, don't worry about it.

[Forsaken Lover]

Oh...glad to hear it. It almost made sense to me given she is the one characte rwho does nothing but watch TV after all.

If the November deadline was Nanako-napping, the casulaties are Kanji, Naoto and Adachi. I have no idea what I was even supposed to do with Naoto. There's not enough time, even if she would talk to me. She always refused to start the S Link and I had no idea what the trigger was. Unless I can do her S Link later on? I guess Rise is out too because I only got her up to 7...maybe 8.

Maxed Yosuke, Yukiko, Chie, Dojima, Nanako and Marie. Probably just gonna use the first three as my party for the rest of the game. It's nice Naoto has no weaknesses but I like my team. We're the OG.

All the romance triggers are depressing, though. It's clear Chie an dYukiko fall in love with you and you have to turn them down. I didn't want to turn Yukiko down but I wasn't about to cheat since, as previously noted, S Links are not a self-contained dimension in this gam. I moved to the intimate route with Marie and I will be loyal because I love her.

I heard Golden added three months to this game. Was this delivery guy really the original final boss? Did I do something wrong? I have no idea if I've even entered into the "choose your ending" zone yet. Please do not tell me what I need to do or when. I'll see for myself.

Still, as obvious as it was, Nanako's being kidnapped was fairly intense and emotional. Coming on the heels of the Culture Festival, bit of mood whiplash. Also why does no one like the sexy teacher lady voiced by Mary Elizabeth McGlynn? I'd have voted for her if I could....


Yosuke isn't bad in terms of gameplay, though. He's not a master of none, precisely. His thing is being super fast. He dodged like, everything the boss threw at him. Still, I wish he'd hurry up and friggin' learn Brave Blade. Power Slash is so 40 hours ago.

Speaking of which, I have access to so many physical attacks now, I dunno which is best. I would guess God's Hand? But I also can soon fuse Michael who has Vorpal Blade and then thre's a few other attacks that all say Heavy. Does it go Vorpal Blade > Akasha Arts > Deathbound?[[/folder]]

[Formalhaut]

Honestly, the default team is the most balanced in the game. Between you all of the four primary elements are covered, and they all function a different role. Yosuke's the balanced member, Chie's all damage, while Yukiko is healing and support.

As for the social links, you have time in January to finish social links, but only during that month.

Naoto's S. Link does come rather late if you're unprepared. There is a trigger for it, but now that you're in November, I'm not sure if it is worth you pursuing it. It's something you can accomplish on a repeat play.

The culture festival is the breather episode before the storm hits in November. It really does punch you in the gut.

[Forsaken Lover]

Apathy is the gretest crime of all, so sayeth Albus Dumbledore.

Anyway, one thing I've failed to comment on for both P3 and P4 - I love the constant voice-acting and conversation in battle. Over in Final Fantasy, I thought the little chats different characters could have in X, or how certain pairings had different battle lines in XIII, were great features that helped establish the atmosphere and tone. But P3 and P4 put all that to shame. I think I honestly first started to like Mitsuru because of her ending battle dialogue. Hearin gher say "YOU HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO GROW EVEN STRONGER!" while the best part of Mas Destruction played in the background always made me so happy. And her post-development critical line of 'OUT OF MY WAY!!!" is pure delight. And then in this game it's even better.

Also another thing I have failed to comment on - Rise is the best navigator because she doesn't freak the fuck out. She just calmly says "you're at low health" or something. It's not nearly as irritating when the person reminding you of the obvious isn't shouting it in your ear.

[Fynn]

Honestly, she's the best navigator simply because her voice is so pleasant to listen to. She's got just the right pitch and she never sounds like she's reading lines (ahem Fuuka), and all her reactions sound genuine.

Have I already mentioned how much I love Rise? I frickin' love Rise.

[Forsaken Lover]

No...Nanako....

So an earlier hint elsewhere about "don't give into hatred" wasn't very subtle but that's not the reason I hesitated. The thing is, my friends are all idiots who apparently missed the rest of the game. Why do they keep shouting about THAT'S NAMATAME'S TRUE FEELINGS. That's blatantly false. Unless Kanji is a raging homosexual and Rise is an attention-seeker stripper. A Shadow is not your true self, it's a part of you and it's a part you can resist. Which Namatame seemed to be doing given the couple words we let him say.

I stopped to write this immediately after that scene. It had, like, more dialogue options than the rest of the game. I just kept trying to tell Yosuke something was wrong. I don't car eabou tkilling him, I care about if killing him would make a difference. Do we even know killing a person kills their Shadow? Isn't the TV World full of Shadows? Presumably those Shadows belong to dead people. I dunno if you have to pick just the right options here or something, I just tried to express what I have written here as best as I could. Which wasn't very well since none of the dialogue options really lined up with this

[Fynn]

It's a frustrating moment. Especially since, if I recall correctly, you can't save between that and the Kuni-no-sagiri battle

[Forsaken Lover]

I...I don't understand.... Nanako is alive but then time passes and I leave and that's it? What did I do wrong?

[Fynn]

You failed to stop a lynching.

Welcome to one of this game's several bad endings.

[Forsaken Lover]

You failed to stop a lynching.

Welcome to one of this game's several bad endings.

I did too stop them! The TV at the end I was watching even said he was going on trial. He confessed to kidnappings but not the first two things.

[Fynn]

Well then, that's another bad end :p

I recommend you look up just what you need to say in that exchange. The key is not only to not lynch him, but also to convince everyone that they have to dig a little deeper.

Of course, making them reach that conclusion is far less intuitive than it should be :monster:

[Forsaken Lover]

I was told I was close. How close? I tried again, did everything the same, but this time I said "calm the hell down!"Not doing that was my only mistake before. Bleh.

[Fynn]

See, you just weren't passionate enough

[Forsaken Lover]

Happiness is good and better than reality which is bad.

Speaking of which, I have defeated the "giant eye guy" I heard about way back when. Adachi being the killer was fairly obvious for both in and out of univerese reasons. Hell, I even forgot there were more clues pointing to him, like the fact he was guarding the first victim or whatever. Kind of weird how the main villain has the same voice as the main protagonist...again. Am I adachi like I was also Ryoji? Hm....

But this is not the end. As I noted with the "giant eye guy" anecdote, there is still a True Ending to be had. I stopped right on New Year's because I'm hungry and tired. But I have to watch out and sy something or do something to find THE TRUTH. And don't tell me anything about that.

I died on my first attempt at the not-so-final boss. I should have Guarded but he was buffing himself and I thought I'd use a Dekaja and still survive. Boy was I wrong. I really do hope Rise keeps chiming in with her buffs though, they make my job easier because I pretty much have to do all the support myself apart from Chie having single Tarukaja and Yosuke having the full party hit/eva up. That's useful at least but what you really need is Tarukaja. Even Charged, attacks don't do that much damage to bosses these days. You gotta figure, Charging alone takes a single turn so your Tarukaja will wear off after one attack.

Is Satan's Viper attack a weird Almighty physical attack again like the Demifiend's unique skill? I wasn't sure so I gave him both the physical and magical charge skill.

Is Margaret like Elizabeth and some Personas can only be fused by getting an item from her? I've ignored her S Link entirely becaue that shit is boring and a waste of preciously limited resources. But I'm missing Metatron for Lucifer as well as one other piece for the ultimate Chariot fusion - Neko something was the name I think - and I'm annoyed. In any event, I have everything else to fuse into it but I haven't found that Neko whatever and thus I might as well have none of the

[Fynn]

Have you maxed Marie? Because there's an optional dungeon coming up if you've done that and hit all the right flags along the way

[Forsaken Lover]

Have you maxed Marie? Because there's an optional dungeon coming up if you've done that and hit all the right flags along the way

I said I romanced her. I got her S Link maxed, yes. And Margaret already told me about this dangerous dungeon coming up and she'll call me when I can go.

Speaking of which, why I was in the Velvet Room, I was trying to figure out how I'd fuse Metatron. Then I got him via a random Fusion Accident. Amazing. Now all that's keeping me from Lucifer is levels.

[Fynn]

Talk about lucky!

[Forsaken Lover]

tqsJkiyn_gw

So they tucked away the best dungeon and boss music in the game away in an optional adddition to a re-release of the game .Positively fiendish. Seriously though, I was riding the fence regards to P3 vs. P4 music in general but there was no doubt in my mind P3 stomped all over 4's face when it came to battle music. But this amped up the only kinda good Face Myself theme into something truly great.

Of course I was Level 88 going in and came out Level 90. I had hoped the dungeon would give me oodles of money and EXP. Boy was I wrong. Still, I was clearly over-leveled. Otherwise things might have been pretty dicy. Rise helped me annihilate the boss in almos tone round because she gave us the party Charge thing. Yosuke and Yukiko alone did 3000 damage to Marie's segiri form.

Speaking of which, is Yukiko just kind of useless as a damage dealer in vanilla P4 by the end? I was so glad to see she got a Severe-level fire spell. Also Chie gets a party Heat Riser so now I don't have to buff AND debuff AND attack. The OG Team is the best.

But man, Marie. Love her. Great voice, great music, great everything. I can see why some resent her, though. She's sort of an honorary member of the Investigation Team and if you loved them for like, 5 years or something before Golden came out, you might resent this new person who is treated as an equal to your old favorites. But I started with Golden so Marie-chan is my darling. Did I mention I got Arena at least partly becaus eshe's playable there? I know it's only in the sequel but I got that DLC ready to go as soon as my game gets here.

[Formalhaut]

Me and Mr. Carny like Marie and we started with P4G as well, so that might be part of it. That, and she is a Mary Sue of a character, which I accept but find it doesn't ruin her character. I don't know, she definitely divides the fanbase.

[Fynn]

Marie Sue


You pretty much nailed why she's divisive, though, FL. It's not only that she's part of the gang now, but also because she's this new addition who is ACTUALLY THE REAL REASON EVERYTHING HAPPENNSSSSS OMFGGG!!!


I guess she wouldn't bother you if Golden wasn't your first time. I'm just bothered that she's brought in to what is a fairly cohesive narrative on its own and tries to add to the story by simply complicating it further through a character that's as close to an archetypical tsundere as you can get.

[Forsaken Lover]

80 hours was my limit for Strange Journey, Nocturne and Persona 3. All good games that I enjoyed but I was ready for them to be over by then.

100 hours wasn't enough of Persona 4. I'll need some time to gather my thoughts but in brief, all the hype and praise this game gets? It used to irritate the hell out of me, possibly because of some narcissistic "it can't be so great if I haven't played it." Well, I was a dumbass. The game deserves all the love.

[Fynn]

True, but then with all the animes and sequels, it did feel like it overstayed its welcome.

You're lucky since you played it right before P5's release, so Atlus has been focusing their energy on that. Back in the day, it was like being constantly nudged by the mm saying "Hey, remember P4? That game was awesome, wasn't it? You loved it, eh? Come on, admit it! You fucking love it! HAVE A MILLION SEQUELS WHY DON'T YOU!!!"


Too bad P3 never got so much attention :(

[Formalhaut]

I would say they squeezed Persona 4 to within an inch of its life. Dancing All Night was my limit with the series.

Having said that though, I thought Persona Q would only be 'okay' but I ended up loving it.

[Fynn]

I loved parts of it (big Strange Journey fan here), but the stupid elements were way too OOC for me, and then there was the main story that was just "meh"

[Formalhaut]

I actually really liked the main story! I mean, sure, you are dripfed the main arc throughout the first two-thirds of the game, but the fourth festival onwards ramped up the tension and intrigue for me. I can see how it can be a chore though. The main arc doesn't really exist allthat much in the first two/three festivals.

I liked the OST as well, come to think of it, it was very well done.

The main thing I disliked was just how broken the combat balancing was. Party members like Naoto or Junpei were way OP compared to say, Teddie.

[Fynn]

Oh no. Like I said, I'm a Strange Journey fan. I'm fine with a narrative that starts off very slow. I just didn't think the final chapter delivered compared to other titles. I can see what it tried to do, but it just fell flat, ringing hollow compared to the emotional impact of P3 and P4.

The problem stems directly from the fact that you can't shove a twist and ending that's meant to be satisfying on a character level (what P3 and P4 did) on a narrative that doesn't focus on the characters - because, let's face it, it doesn't. The whole draw of the game is that it's a fun crossover for P3 and P4. All of the characters are horribly flanderized, sometimes to the point of being unrecognizable (hi, Akihiko). But that could have worked if the story had stayed a bit more on the self-aware, dumb, innocent side.

Instead the game wants us to care about some two-dimensional characters as much as we did for the characters in the main series, who we managed to get to know and bond organically through a school year we pretty much attended, not to mention the social links. PQ just doesn't have the character build-up that could make that end part work.

[Formalhaut]

I see what you mean. I don't know, I think I managed to like Rei & Zen enough to connect with the (admittedly) mood whiplashed final chapter.

They could've transitioned from fun cross-over to serious story a bit better, that's true.

[Fynn]

See, I like mood whiplash. FFVI is one of my favorites, and that game perfected it.

But yeah, the problem here is that the narrative expects me to care about characters that are just way too bland to work.

[Formalhaut]

I guess we'll have to disagree, because I think Rei & Zen weren't two-dimensional!

I should probably play another SMT game at some point down the road, come to think of it. Maybe Strange Journey?

[Fynn]

(you played IV, so why not Apocalypse?)

[Formalhaut]

I kinda want a break from the IV-verse, to be honest.

[Fynn]

But... you played that like, ages ago?


Go with any of the games FL played, then. Nocturne is widely praised, but trust me, it is hard. So is Strange Journey. Probably the most accessible would be Digital Devil Saga, but it's far from a traditional MegaTen, since you don't summon demons. But it has a really good story.

Another recommendation would be Soul Hackers, or any of the PS2 Raidou Kuzunoha games. The Devil Summoner series in general is a lighter take on the SMT formula, being more urban-fantasy than post-apocalyptic (also, takes place in the Persona continuity). The Raidou games are Action RPGs though, so keep that in mind!

[Formalhaut]

I only finished it in December :p

[Fynn]

WAT


Anyway, if you want to play on a handheld, definitely go for Soul Hackers.


And then there's also Devil Survivor which... Eh. It's definitely a better SMTxFire Emblem than the actual crossover we got, but then it's got the most annoying characters I've ever had to suffer through so :gator:

[Forsaken Lover]

So I'm tired. I wanna get this done with and go take a nap.

A lot of the time playing P3 and 4, I was reminded a bit of a BioWare game. Not precisely of course but I would not a tall be surprised if there is a lot of overlap. The comparison especially occurred to me when reflecting on the plot of Persona 4. It is an often-stated pro/con assessment of BioWare that they can make great characters but write bad plots. Well, the plot of P4 is certainly nothing special. The Gas Station Attendant was the root of it all? Really? I have no problem with who the killer was. I think that worked. But overall, the story feels merely like it's a vehicleto move the characters along because they are the real focu. The plot of P4 is also not even remotely subtle if that bothers people. Then again, none of the Persona games have been subtle in their messages from what I've seen. It's not a drawback for me but a lot of people get annoyed when something "preaches at you" or whatever.

I recall discussing what alignments the Persona cast would be. Yu is just as Neutral as the P3 Protag in my book. I mean, this game, just like the last one, has you throw off the tyranny of gods or destiny and say man will stand on his own.

Now, as I just stated, the draw of these games is hanging out with your buddies. So who were my faves? Well a big improvement in this game as compared to 3 - at least the version of 3 I played - was having S Links with the guys. I feel bad I neglected Kanji but I had to make some sacrifices. Still, there's no doubt my favorite characters ended up being Yosuke, Chie and Marie. Chie really surprised me because she sounds nothing like the other role I've heard from Ms. Fitzgerald and indeed, Chie's character is pretty different as well. But she's just so infectiously enthusiastic and lovable. "KABOOM!" Yosuke is of course Bro #1 and while I definitely understand the dislike for him or at least some of the things he does, I don't think his negative aspects drag him down. They are few and far between. Mostly he's just a lovable goofball who is always there for you and everyone else. Is he a bit too "forced" in terms of his constant obsession with the opposite sex and his rudeness towards Kanji's alleged homosexuality? Absolutely. Because he's a teenage guy. I remember how it was. And Marie is just lovely. I adore her design, voice and storyteline. Is it BS Mary Sue stuff that she's actually this all powerful goddess that all the other all powerful beings are from? Probably. But oh well. As I said, the plot of this game is not its draw. Marie's Valentine's scene makes up for all that plot stuff. Still, while I had favorites, I loved ev eryone in this game. Because they are all your family.

On a similar note, amazing OST overall but I still had stand-out tracks I adore. I think the best songs in the game are "Corner of Memories" the title screen theme,, Marie's dungeon theme (https://youtu.be/yMxR1Ef_x3c), SMILE, the somber S Link music that I could listen to forever and part of why every S Link is amazing (along with the added voice-acting. Voicing the last two S Link scenes was genius), Your Affection,Snowflake and Mitsuo's version of Face Myself, which is apparently a Golden addition. I was told to hold off on playing 4 until I could get Golden. Thank God I did that. Looking up all the additions to P4G, It's a whole different game in a lot of ways.

But yeah, I mentioned BioWare earlier. I haven't felt this satisfied with a game since Mass Effect 2. Persona 4 was pretty much perfect as I think it accomplished everything the developers wanted to accomplish. I have never really sat down and compiled a list of my favorite video games ever but rest assured that if I did, Persona 4 Golden would be on it. I look forward to replaying it on Very Easy and with all my attributes maxed so I can actually see all the S Links.

Now...in spinoff news, what the heck is Persona Q? I've heard mixed things about it, to put it lightly. What kind of game is it? When is it set? So much is already happening to the Persona crew with the Arena games and all.

Speaking of which, I love Mitsuru's outfit. She makes me think of a Captain from Bleach. Remember Bleach? No? Well that's probably for the best. In any event I only loaded it up to try it out a bit because I haven't played a fighting game in years. I can't even use Mtsuru in Story Mode. Also I am Yu now and I can actually talk. It's weird.

[Fynn]

Persona Q basically takes place in the middle of both games and the characters are all transported to this pocket dimension outside of time. Which is why they can meet.

Gameplay wise, it kind of has elements of Strange Journey and old Persona games. It has you explore dungeons in first person (you can even draw your own map!) and every party member can switch personas, but it works a little differently - everyone has their main persona that can't be changed, but they can also each equip a sub persona for more skills. The game is really fun and has a lot of great moments, but the main drawbacks are that characters are mere caricatures of themselves - Akihiko's basically just a manchild that won't shut up about protein, for example - and that the story is really at its weakest when it tries to be serious.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well I'm not going to be playing it anyway since it's for the 3DS. Oh well.

I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts on the game, though. Like, favorite characters or music? Do you agree with my asessment these games' meh plots are saved by great characters?

Also most important question, best clothing for everyone? I wore a Bath Towel and nothing else for the last few dungeons. It's how I saved the world!

[Fynn]

I don't necessarily think the plot is weak - I just think that its crafted around the characters by design. I liked the mystery of P4, to be honest, and it did leave me wondering throughout the game. Also, as unintuitive as it was, I liked how the end part really did require you to push through to really get to the core of the mystery. That said, I do feel P4's narrative is a tad more disjointed than P3's.

With that in mind, both games do a really good job with maintaining their themes both in the main story and in the social links. While I enjoyed P3's "death comes for us all so instead of giving into despair through false hope or something, just embrace the fact that life is short and live it" more than P4's "be true to yourself and don't give into lies", I still think they're both excellently executed.

From P3, my favorite characters were Junpei and Yukari, as well as Aigis, with Jumpei being pretty much my favorite game character of all time. I feel that the characters you meet first get the most time to really show all the intricate layers to their character, and I don't think I've ever seen another character who struggled with issues of confidence, resentment, and pride and how that influences your relationships in such a human, relatable way - to me, of course (also, his social link on the female path is just painfully adorable). Similar with Yukari - she may not be the nicest, but she also doesn't go overboard with it, and the reasons for it are completely justified. And then Aigis is just a big fat woobie, especially if you max her link on the female path since that adds an additional layer of gayngst to the mix.


The cast of P4 is designed to be easier to like, which kind of has its drawbacks, imo. For example, the second time I played P4 I noticed how much Yosuke annoyed me, and not just because he was a homophobe - I can legitimately see how he was written as a sort of "anti-Junpei" - you yourself noticed that, FL (incidentally, did you know that he was planned as a gay option? And it was so far in development that there's actually lines provided by Yuri Lowenthall from that path hidden in the disk?) I mean, it's nice that he tries hard and that he's really reliable, but so much from his social link was like "omg we're such good bros!"

I still liked him, though. There's not a single character in either of these games that I dislike. My faves in 4 were Kanji and Rise. Kanji because I heavily related with his struggle with the social expectations of masculinity and how apparently liking "girly" stuff makes you a worse person for some reason? And then Rise shows that just because people associate your bubbliness with some shallow image you're maintaining, you should still be you and do what you love. There is no real me - everything you and other people see about you is still you, with none of the being more true than the other. So just keep being that multifaceted you that you are! Love here theme.

[Forsaken Lover]

Since you're an SMT fan what did you think of my assessment that Yu is Neutral just like the P3 Protag? Both games have a pretty solid fuck the gods/go humanity message.

[Fynn]

Like I said before, I think the alignments are more represented by the heroes who (always tend to be on the neutral end of the spectrum).

It's also important to remember that both Nyx and Izanami were manifestations of specific aspects of the human psyche - the longing for death and for an escape from truth and pain respectively. So it's less "screw gods" and more "damn, people, we need to get a grip!"

[Forsaken Lover]

I didn't know Nyx was part of the human consciousness. And Izanami is the one who went on about being a god.

Thanks for the response though. Another question!

Anyone here a Harry Potter fan? What Houses would the heroes best fit in? Mainly thinking of the Investigation Team but SEES works too.

[Fynn]

Ooh, never thought about it! As a devoted Ravenclaw, I will deliberate on that :D

[Formalhaut]

Yukiko and Naoto are probably Ravenclaw. Maybe Yu could be Gryffindor and Chie is Hufflepuff?

[Fynn]

Chie is Gryffindor af. So is Yukiko, IMO


Heck, most of the cast is Gryffindor simply because of how much courage facing yourself takes :gator:

[Formalhaut]

I have no experience of Harry Potter to be honest, so that was a stab in the dark.

[Forsaken Lover]

Trying to go back to DDS after Persona 4 was a bad idea. It is so incredibly sluggish, Serph runs with the speed of an old man out for an easy jog, and the encounter rate is every bit as terible as I remember. Also that is some really lazy final dungeon music.

Gonna be without Internet for a couple weeks. I need something to do but I don't think completing DDS will be it. Maybe I'll try Raidou 2. Or, hell, since I'm going back to JRPG's I bought but never really played, I could maybe give Tales of Symphonia HD a try.

I've also got P2 Eternal Punishment but I lost my IS save data so what's even the point.

[Fynn]

Have you played the first Raidou?

[Forsaken Lover]

I was told not to because its combat sucks. As such I only bought the second one off PSN.

[Fynn]

It's not the best, but it doesn't suck. And it's a direct sequel, so you might miss out on stuff. Plus, it has Rasputin in it.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well I can just play Symphonia and then get Raidou 1 next month.

[Wolf Kanno]

Glad to see you've plunged into the MegaTen fandom with the rest of us. Mad props for taking down Nocturne as well since it may be my favorite game in the franchise.

71897

[krissy]

persona3 is great

[krissy]

i just met the gourmet king

who knew high school simulators could be the best

also so close to maxing two links
too bad you cant fuse ultimates or whatever until you get to level a billion tho

[Wolf Kanno]

Leveling won't be a problem in the long run to be honest. It's surprisinlgy not difficult to get into the 80-90 range in these games.

[krissy]

hi thread

just finished P3:FES The Journey

straight up did MC die? after getting another month of life? really?

like i get it

i guess i wasn't expecting it? i was sort of expecting it... but not with this double trickery


what should i expect in The Answer?

[Fynn]

Tons of grinding, a giant stupid retcon, and a lot of forced, out-of-character conflict :monster:

[Wolf Kanno]

74147

More like better challenge, an interesting tale about mourning, and a bad ass battle theme.

[Fynn]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/870/094/d2c.png



Aigis: no stop fighting

Junpei & Koro: no all u stop fighting

Aigis & Junpei & Koro: *fight*

[Wolf Kanno]

You and I both know that Junpei is a joiner, so why should he be left out while everyone else is knocking heads? Besdies, it's not like a few players don't want to slap him around.

[Fynn]

At that point in the story, though, there was the least reason to fight him, though, as not only was he reasonable, he was pretty much saying exactly the thing you were saying. Forced conflict for the sake of fanservice is basically The Answer's MO.

[Wolf Kanno]

At that point in the story, though, there was the least reason to fight him, though, as not only was he reasonable, he was pretty much saying exactly the thing you were saying. Forced conflict for the sake of fanservice is basically The Answer's MO.

Not really.

I would agree if Junpei was the first fight, but instead it was the second clash after Akihiko and Ken, so knowing that Aigis was willing to fight her teammates to get what she wanted, why would Junpei now assume she's on his side anymore? He didn't want to fight at all, and while Aigis didn't either, she fought Akihiko when he refused to back down, but that shows Junpei she may likely have her own motive. Throw in the fact she's allied with Metis, whom most of the team is suspicious of doesn't really help her case either. While I can agree the circumstances around it could have been better clarified, I can see where the logic is in the conflict. The team is being hit hard with trauma and weirdness, so their all on edge and trust is becoming an issues because everyone is still in the dark about what's really happening. That is a perfect atmosphere to breed conflict, even among comrades. The party has literally just relearned they saved the world, their leader dies mysteriously, their all now trapped in some groundhog's day loop, Aigis just gained their leaders powers, a mysterious robot like Aigis has appeared and initially attacked everyone before going all "Big Sis" on Aigis, they had to kill a physical manifestation of their guilt and desire to see their original leader, and now they've learned they have an opportunity to go back and possibly save him as the cost of possibly undoing the whole "save the world" deal. All this while trapped in their crappy dorm which is collapsing under the weight of the space time continuum. I would be a little on edge and not exactly trusting someone who claims to be on my side after they just did the opposite of what I wanted to do with another team. I'm just saying there is some logical justification here.

krissy ~ There is some actual cool background info in this game that expands the backstory of the characters and the story ultimately explains what actually happened during the MC's encounter with Nyx when he used the Seal. Parts of the event are also referenced in P4 and the P4 Arena games.

[Fynn]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. While I can definitely see the point you're trying to make, seeing those events first hand didn't really give me that impression, and it all genuinely came across as forced to me. And while I definitely agree that there is room for conflict, I think it was handled poorly, and could have been poignant and believable with better writing. Sadly, I feel that it didn't work. I also think the point behind Erebus is pretty stupid and only exists to complicated the cosmology a bit more without really adding anything to the message. Whether Nyx represents humanity's will to die or Erebus does, the point of the main plot remains unchanged. Erebus really wasn't a necessary addition as it doesn't really add or detract from the MC's sacrifice - it's just added there so you can have a final boss in your epilogue thing.

[krissy]

Thanks all

I'm paying first ten minutes now and I gotta say mitsuru

Maybe stop buying that sushi because bad stuff happens whenever you do

[krissy]

pretty upset nothing carries over and apparently they all went down 400 levels cause they didn't do anything for two months

and yeah it is harder... i never opened monad in journey so i had to grind a lot to get through the game OK (i'm not super skilled in persona swithching/organizing)

it's just this dungeon w cutscenes throughout, right? there's no other game mechanic? no shops/etc?

[Wolf Kanno]

A shop will eventually open up up in the game.

[krissy]

i think i just need a break before continuing on

but persona 3 has definitely made it into my top 5 games

now im worried about how to proceed
4? 5? watch 4 on yt and then 5?

to an extent i enjoy the grind well enough sometimes, but it takes a long time.

i spent 130 h on P3 and i never cleared it 100%

also listening to the soundtrack at work now
also yes posting on eoff at work hush

[Fynn]

I'd say play 4. The gameplay is just as solid as in 3, and it's really part of the appeal. I definitely wouldn't skip on it if you're enjoying this series, as the thing has so much choice going on that watching it on Youtube just feels like a waste.

Also, if you're interested, it could be cool to follow this order:

P3 > P4 > P1 > P2IS > P2EP > P5

But this is mostly if you're interested in the series' roots. 1 and the two 2s don't have social links and play more like traditional dungeon crawlers, but they're still very interesting, with the 2 duology having arguably the best plot in the entire series (I've yet to play EP so I can't really comment on that notion, but Innocent Sin was definitely some good shit while P1 is an acquired taste but definitely worth checking out).

There's also the issue that P5 follows the same formula as P3/4 BUT also reintroduces some elements from the previous games (demon negotiations, more elements, some visual cues) that will probably make it feel much more like a culmination of the entire series if you know all the other games first. Fun fact: all Persona games take place in the same continuity, even if call-backs from 3/4 to 1/2 are minimal at best.

[Skyblade]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. While I can definitely see the point you're trying to make, seeing those events first hand didn't really give me that impression, and it all genuinely came across as forced to me. And while I definitely agree that there is room for conflict, I think it was handled poorly, and could have been poignant and believable with better writing. Sadly, I feel that it didn't work. I also think the point behind Erebus is pretty stupid and only exists to complicated the cosmology a bit more without really adding anything to the message. Whether Nyx represents humanity's will to die or Erebus does, the point of the main plot remains unchanged. Erebus really wasn't a necessary addition as it doesn't really add or detract from the MC's sacrifice - it's just added there so you can have a final boss in your epilogue thing.

You are correct in that Erebus doesn't change the meaning of the sacrifice. It neither adds nor subtracts from what is already there.

But, I still appreciate it for the clarity it brought. It showed us (and the others) his Answer. What he learned about life, and death. Why he was able to overcome Nyx.

That ending is basically the only thing I like about The Answer.

Everything else is forced, out-of-character nonsense.

[Wolf Kanno]

If you enjoyed P3's gameplay, then I would say jump to P4 and then P5. Personally, I would jump straight to P5 if possible and just watch the original anime adaption of P4 because it brings together everything good about P4's story and cast. Course I'm a little bias...

[Forsaken Lover]

So I played Persona 5.

Long rant short: I didn't like it. I consider it worse than 3 and it in no way is even close to Persona 4 Golden which is still the single best Atlus game I've ever played and one of the best JRPGs of all time.

P5 really thought it had some great hot takes on the state of the world. Then it blamed all of the problems in the world on "troutty adults." Hard-hitting social commentary from a really dumb 13-year-old!

Now if this was just Ryuji being his typical moronic self, that be one thing. But Sae literally had to apologize for all of adult-dom and promise to make amends.

The Phantom Thieves had nothing on the Investigation Team in terms of synergy or likability, probably because the plot and its oh-so-deep ideas on society were the only thing that mattered. The Phantom Thieves never stopped talking about being Phantom Thieves and social reform and blah blah blah. The Investigation Team, outside of when they were saving each other or trying to solve the murder, were normal high school kids. There is so much stuff in P4G dedicated just to "slice of life" and making you love these people like your family. The Phantom Thieves don't have even a quarter of that.

Haru was the best party member and she got introduced way too late. Also the best characters are all adults. Kawakami my waifu, Yoshida and Takemi.

What really sucks is this game doesn't even have that good of a soundtrack. The game really should have just ended with Shido's Cruiser since it felt like a real climax and it had the best music in the game.

gveYikxE_RA
YTYkUvaEsio


So yeah. What P5 has taught me isn't any ground-breaking truths about the world. But it has taught me a lesson I should have learned from Mass Effect: Andromeda.

Never buy a game digitally just because it's part of a franchise you like. You can't re-sell or give away digital games. You're stuck with them forever. You've thrown your money into a blackhole.

[Wolf Kanno]

I... cannot really agree with you, on any of your points.

[Forsaken Lover]

I... cannot really agree with you, on any of your points.

So you agree with the game's idea that THOSE ROTTEN ADULTS are the source of all the problems in the world?

Believe me, I know I'm in the minority that thinks this game is a piece of crap. But at least it looks like some people recognize P4 did the social dynamics better. I cannot even fathom how anybody could prefer the Phantom Thieves to the Investigation Team. The IT had infinitely more time and care put into setting up their dynamics and friendship than the PT did. That's just an objective fact.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

Overall I tend to agree that P4 was stronger in most ways (except for dungeon design). Even though I enjoyed P3P when I first played it P4G was what really blew me away. That being said I do think there is some great music in P5, the art design is pretty spectacular etc. But I would agree that in terms of the story and characters P4 is probably the best. And it definitely had a lot more warmth than P5. Maybe I'm just not the right kind of person to enjoy the darker aspects of most SMT games. I've played a lot of them, and enjoy some elements, but nothing has grabbed me as much as P4.

[Fynn]

Haven't played 5 yet, but for me, as the years go by, Persona 4's cast and story feels weaker and weaker. Especially now that I'm playing 2 and can see how it deconstructs the main themes of 4, despite the fact tgat it was made years before it

[Forsaken Lover]

Haven't played 5 yet, but for me, as the years go by, Persona 4's cast and story feels weaker and weaker. Especially now that I'm playing 2 and can see how it deconstructs the main themes of 4, despite the fact tgat it was made years before it

It deconstructs "Be yourself and don't let society make you feel like shit"?

P2 must be the Law route of Persona.

[Fynn]

Not really

It's about how society doesn't always want the truth and you trying to make it fqce it might be not just difficul but even make matters worse. Falling bwck on the power of friejdship is outright punished compsred to dealing with your interjal trout on your own. And then, in the end, not only does the power of friendship not fix everything - sometimes clinging to it hard is what makes everything much worse for everyone around.

P2 says friends are important, sure, and that being your true self is importand, but also acknowledges tge limitations on those things a bit more than P4 does and actyally carries a much more antu-collectivist message than it. If anything, it's the Chaos path.

that's why I say it's A deconstruction. It takes a closer, more groundedlook at some ideas from P4 that are handled in a manner taht is very appealibg, though perhaps with a bit of a disregard of reality

[Forsaken Lover]

Not really

It's about how society doesn't always want the truth and you trying to make it fqce it might be not just difficul but even make matters worse. Falling bwck on the power of friejdship is outright punished compsred to dealing with your interjal trout on your own. And then, in the end, not only does the power of friendship not fix everything - sometimes clinging to it hard is what makes everything much worse for everyone around.

P2 says friends are important, sure, and that being your true self is importand, but also acknowledges tge limitations on those things a bit more than P4 does and actyally carries a much more antu-collectivist message than it. If anything, it's the Chaos path.

that's why I say it's A deconstruction. It takes a closer, more groundedlook at some ideas from P4 that are handled in a manner taht is very appealibg, though perhaps with a bit of a disregard of reality

You're referring to stuff like when you go back to help Lisa when she's dealing with the fact she can't actually speak English and all the racist assumptions made by her friends? I did that but i guess I wasn't supposed to. But that's macho shounen garbage. You should always go and support people. Doubly so for Lisa because she clearly loved Tatsuya and I wasn't going to abandon her. And that's what the choices were. Stay or go support Lisa.

[Fynn]

Except if you choose not to help her,she shows she's perfectly capableof doing it on her own and grows far more as a person as a result. and those xhoices for your party members aren't even half of the deconstructive aspect. The message in this particular instance is that handholding will get you nowhere. As someone who's been topsychotherapy, I can see a lot of parallels - the therapist asks questions but ultimatelu, you have to learn how to pull yourself up.

[Forsaken Lover]

I don't think it's handholding to have your first instinct be to help.

Looking up the other choices, I also didn't get Maya's second Persona because I didn't force the woman with the fear of fire to go walk through a blazing inferno. For fuck's sake, Maya's fear of fire is 100% valid and is born of horrible trauma. We've seen how she seizes up and freaks out because of it. Telling her to go save that girl on her own is wrong on every level.

[Wolf Kanno]

I... cannot really agree with you, on any of your points.

So you agree with the game's idea that THOSE ROTTEN ADULTS are the source of all the problems in the world?

Believe me, I know I'm in the minority that thinks this game is a piece of crap. But at least it looks like some people recognize P4 did the social dynamics better. I cannot even fathom how anybody could prefer the Phantom Thieves to the Investigation Team. The IT had infinitely more time and care put into setting up their dynamics and friendship than the PT did. That's just an objective fact.

It surprises me that someone who could post this thread (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/170194-WK-s-Top-something-or-other-let-s-just-say-quot-games-quot-and-call-it-good-list?p=3678570&viewfull=1#post3678570http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/170010-YouTube-Feminists-Leftists-Etc), would miss the central point of P5, which is simply that if you want the world to be a better place, you have to have the courage to stand up and do it, and not simply wait for someone else to come along and fix the world. Change begins with the individual. There's a reason why the Deadly Sin associated with the collective unconsciousness of humanity is Sloth. It ties back into the game focusing so much time talking about social media and how the Phantom Thieves were trending, not because it's simply a modern element of society, but it's also a commentary on it's negative impact on society and how social media blinds us into thinking that commenting on some hot button issue deludes us into thinking we're "helping" when we're simply being a spectator.

Yes, it's the fault of adults, but that's what you would expect if you were a teenager with no say on social matters and being mistreated by a corrupt system that benefits the few at the exploitation of those who can't do anything to really better there lives. It's especially poignant since Japan is very hierarchical society and it's expected that the adults look out for the next generation, and instead the game has them only looking out for themselves. It's something I feel in my own country as my parents generation is certainly more interested in protecting their own self-interest than leave anything for my generation or the one after mine. So I would say P5's themes hit pretty hard and close to home.

The P4 cast got more screen time showing they were best buds, that I can agree on. Where I disagree is whether that was actually important to the plot and something that helped the game. For me, I don't feel like it did. P4 was too much "slice of life" and not enough "murder mystery". I don't care that Kanji is going to get another comical scene of himself tripping over his words as he confronts Naoto once again about his mixed feelings, or listening to Yusuke ramble on about the MC being his partner and only friend for the umpteenth time. I wanted to solve an intricate murder mystery, not see what the Scooby Gang does on their days off. So damn straight I love the fact that P5's cast stuck to their objective and didn't waste my time with Ski Trips and school festivals, and instead focused on actually trying to make the world a better place.

I liked the fact the MC had a moment of story and gameplay integration by having him be upfront about how he was using his social links as a means to an end. Hell I appreciated the fact the game drove us away from the typical student shenanigans of P3 and 4 and allowed us to focus more on the outcasts of society. Listening to your classmates opening gossip about you and treat you like dirt instead of being the Mary Sue the past protagonists have been was pretty damn refreshing.

I mean P4's plot is kind of boring because you spend most of it just running in place. Your party isn't closer to solving the case from stopping the third victim as they were to the second to last one. Almost all of them stop questioning the TV world whereas P5 keeps the existence of the app and the cognitive world as a constant mystery. The party doesn't even try to actually make a real investigation outside of the plan to just catch the criminal in the act, and in the end, the real criminal has a patsy so their one plan was actually not going to help them. I just kind of kept waiting for the story to go somewhere and it never really does. Even the kind of phoned in "Full Moon" bosses from P3 had an in-game to them within the story so even if it became routine petty quickly, you still felt like the party was advancing towards something.

To me P5 spend an adequate amount of time building up the cast and their relationship, but it wasn't there relationship that was important. In fact P5 largely avoids the hokey "friendship is magic speech" and the real test of the main characters faith in his comrades deals with the culmination of the investigation into the Phantom Thieves. Hell I appreciate the fact that the ending deals with the characters trying resolve the main characters Juvenal Record issue by actually going out and getting the word out to people and become civically active to undo an injustice. It ties in with the games central theme of "doing, not talking, to invoke change" and I felt it was a more heartfelt friendship moment than watching the cast of P4 do a third running gag about how none of the girls can cook. I mean I get it, the P4 cast likes each other, can we get back to solving a supernatural serial killer case?

This is not to say that I feel P4 didn't have it's strengths, or strong messages, but for me, the heavy handed slice of life element eventually bored me. P3 did a better job of balancing the student stuff while also keeping you invested in a dark conspiracy about the Midnight Hour and the Shadows. Likewise, I enjoyed the fact P5 was a series of escalations as your small team of thieves begin to make a major impact on society and the social aspect really felt more like your character spending time to make contacts to help him with his goals as opposed to just doing stuff on his off time. I ultimately just prefer the more narrow focus P5 provided and frankly, I liked P5s cast way more than P4s. In fact P4 only ranks slightly higher than P1s for me as I found most of the cast uninteresting or grating and I feel less time on "friendship is the best thing ever (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uTuncnLrA0)" could have saved them from some of those mixed feelings I have for them.

As for P2 versus P4, I agree with Fynn that P2 is largely a deconstruction on the whole "power of friendship" spiel. At least the first game does, but that's because P2 had a real villain who was pretty genre savvy and knew how to exploit it for his own benefit. P2 also had minor message of "adults are useless" before the second half completely subverts it, and it's the adults that ultimately set everything right. P4 is a typical anime plot where believing in yourself and your friends is enough to make the impossible possible, which is frankly a dime a dozen in this medium alone. That is why P4 is not as special to me, especially since I feel the real world is a bit more complicated compared to the overly idealistic game. It's why I like the fact P2 makes choosing to let your comrades deal with their issues is the right choice because while it's great to have friends who will back you up, it's important to also be self-sufficient and not drag other people into your own baggage, especially when it's dealing with things only you who can resolve. Oddly, P4 kind of did this as well since the only thing the party did was prevent the Shadow from killing their other self when they were denied. It is still up to the character to resolve their own internal conflict.

[Fynn]

I don't think it's handholding to have your first instinct be to help.

Looking up the other choices, I also didn't get Maya's second Persona because I didn't force the woman with the fear of fire to go walk through a blazing inferno. For smurf's sake, Maya's fear of fire is 100% valid and is born of horrible trauma. We've seen how she seizes up and freaks out because of it. Telling her to go save that girl on her own is wrong on every level.

She herself offers to do it on her own

The decisions really come at a point where the characters have the opportunity to get over their issues, and they want to do it. Of course, they'll accept your help, since it's the easier way out and part of them wishes for that to happen, but if you do step in, you kind of rob them of the opportunity that might not come up again for them. So it's really the best choice for them to leave it to them because helping them at that point isn't really help in the long run. And this is how it deconstructs friendship being the solution, among others - sometimes what a friend really needs to do is take a backseat.

Also, shout out to Maya who is, as far as I'm aware, the only person in the entire series to just outright deny her shadow self and win. This was always interesting to me and I think this partly stems from the fact that she's the adult of the group. She is actually very aware of the issue and probably realizes she resents the other party members for what happened to a degree, but she's already actively working to be better than that and is ultimately too happy to finally be reunited with her childhood crew to really give that voice the time of day. Her reaction is basically "oh my God stop whining already" and I love it. Maya is the best.

[Forsaken Lover]

Yes, it's the fault of adults, but that's what you would expect if you were a teenager with no say on social matters and being mistreated by a corrupt system that benefits the few at the exploitation of those who can't do anything to really better there lives. It's especially poignant since Japan is very hierarchical society and it's expected that the adults look out for the next generation, and instead the game has them only looking out for themselves. It's something I feel in my own country as my parents generation is certainly more interested in protecting their own self-interest than leave anything for my generation or the one after mine. So I would say P5's themes hit pretty hard and close to home.

I can acknowledge the Baby Boomers have hurt the US without blaming "adults." As I said, everyone from Sae to Shido is lumped together. Sae is in her 20s I believe and Shido was 52 I think it was. They are not even close to the same generation yet " all" adults are trout on, and the adults themselves agree with this.


The P4 cast got more screen time showing they were best buds, that I can agree on. Where I disagree is whether that was actually important to the plot and something that helped the game. For me, I don't feel like it did. P4 was too much "slice of life" and not enough "murder mystery". I don't care that Kanji is going to get another comical scene of himself tripping over his words as he confronts Naoto once again about his mixed feelings, or listening to Yusuke ramble on about the MC being his partner and only friend for the umpteenth time. I wanted to solve an intricate murder mystery, not see what the Scooby Gang does on their days off. So damn straight I love the fact that P5's cast stuck to their objective and didn't waste my time with Ski Trips and school festivals, and instead focused on actually trying to make the world a better place.


Fair enough if that is your preference but Persona from 3 and onward has been about making cool anime friends. The plot is a secondary concern. That's probably why 4 is so much more popular than 3. 3 didn't give you nearly enough time with your buddies and instead focused a lot more on the plot. In games where your "bonds" and friendships are what ultimately save the world, I think showing those friendships should always be paramount.



I liked the fact the MC had a moment of story and gameplay integration by having him be upfront about how he was using his social links as a means to an end. Hell I appreciated the fact the game drove us away from the typical student shenanigans of P3 and 4 and allowed us to focus more on the outcasts of society. Listening to your classmates opening gossip about you and treat you like dirt instead of being the Mary Sue the past protagonists have been was pretty damn refreshing.

Fun fact: I initially took "The Deal" because I couldn't careless about anybody or anything, probably because everyone did treat me like dirt so I saw no reason to care about any of them.



As for P2 versus P4, I agree with Fynn that P2 is largely a deconstruction on the whole "power of friendship" spiel. At least the first game does, but that's because P2 had a real villain who was pretty genre savvy and knew how to exploit it for his own benefit. P2 also had minor message of "adults are useless" before the second half completely subverts it, and it's the adults that ultimately set everything right. P4 is a typical anime plot where believing in yourself and your friends is enough to make the impossible possible, which is frankly a dime a dozen in this medium alone. That is why P4 is not as special to me, especially since I feel the real world is a bit more complicated compared to the overly idealistic game. It's why I like the fact P2 makes choosing to let your comrades deal with their issues is the right choice because while it's great to have friends who will back you up, it's important to also be self-sufficient and not drag other people into your own baggage, especially when it's dealing with things only you who can resolve. Oddly, P4 kind of did this as well since the only thing the party did was prevent the Shadow from killing their other self when they were denied. It is still up to the character to resolve their own internal conflict.

I never did finish Innocent Sin but I don't see how it was particularly complicated with its evil principals and Nazis out of nowhere for no reason. (I mean from a writing perspective. There was absolutely no reason to make them Nazis) It all felt incredibly hokey and silly to me. Granted my memory of the game is not perfect and I'll never play it again because its gameplay is unforgivably terrible and probably the worst I've ever seen in a JRPG. But it felt like the game was going nowhere until the revelations about Maya and Jun. I certainly wasn't really interested in anything until then. So much smurfing padding. Plus a lot of important dialogue is to be found from randomly walking around and talking to people instead of proceeding with the plot. That irritated me.

I hear Eternal Punishment is better but bleh. It apparently has the same battle system so smurf that noise.

[Fynn]

Well, the main villain of P2 (and P1 by retcon) is an anthropomorphic representation of all of humanity's destructive tendencies - the dark side of the collective unconscious, if you will. He's the reason rumors come true and manipulates the events from before the game to the point that he causes the friends to meet and takes advantage of their friendship to doom humanity. Oh, and he wins. So yeah, in Innocent Sin, friendship actually dooms the world.

I heard Eternal Punishment plays better and is more challenging, but eh, I doubt you'll like it if you hated IS so much.

[Forsaken Lover]

EP is apparently harder but that just means battles will take longer. That's the last thing this battle system needs.

And I know the Nya is apparently behind everything. Philemon and him made a bet and something something the world is destroyed.

They should have talked more about that instead of wasting a ton of game on irrelevant fluff. You guys insist this game has a great story but you don't see any of it for most of the game.

[Fynn]

Well, I'm replaying IS now and I actually feel like that's not the case. Of course, I take the time to talk to everyone, so you could blame the game for not putting all the stuff in a linear path, but I actually like it. Makes the town feel alive. And the game spends exactly as much time as it needs on the Nyarly exposition. And a lot of the stuff from the fluff parts, as you call them, pays out very handsomely at the end. I also notice it's one of those game when, on a replay, when you know the stuff that happens, all the weird goofy scenes from the beginning suddenly feel much more meaningful and not really as silly anymore.

And I heard EP isn't just harder, but that the battles are somehow smoother and go by way faster. So it is an improvement however you look at it. IS was cakewalk, what with the game just giving you the best Personas.

[Forsaken Lover]

So I kinda feel...inadequate in a way when I try to talk about SMT. I've only played Nocturne and Strange Journey (unless most of DDS1 counts but given there was barely a plot there, I don't feel it enlightened me about anything relating to SMT Cosmology) and until such time as SMTIV is ported to the Switch or the 3DS emulator becomes better, I won't be playing that.

So I decided to start up SMT2. It's the only "classic" MegaTen title I really ever hear about. I figure I should give it a try.

I've always heard the older SMT games are kinda...silly or hokey? Like the creators didn't take them all that seriously. I guess Nocturne was a dark twist or evolution. This beginning is certainly quite odd.

Going just by "this one is strong, this one is intelligent and this one is kinda like you" I wasn't sure what to name "them." The strongest one I named Nik, the smartest one I named Akechi and the one like me I named Cloud. No rhyme or reason, just whatever came to mind.

Red Bear kicked my ass the first several times I fought him. I got a Knocker which had Tarukaja and I figured that would be my saving grace. Only he got oneshotted. Turns out investing all my points in Stamina (defense) and using Gun instead of sword attacks was the key to victory. But now it costs 1200 Yen to revive Knocker. Fucking hell.

This Fortune Teller told me that I already know Hiroko somehow so I made sure to accept her request to take her to Madam's Manor. She seems important and I have no idea what's going on so accept any clues I can find about who I am and what I'm doing.

I guess the free Pixie was a tradition started later in the franchise since the only Pixie I've encountered so far is a High Pixie who did nothing but steal my EXP.

Wow, we're really incompetent. We couldn't stop one stupid doctor from fiddling with statues. On he bright side, I have a name. I just went with Aleph because I heard that was the canon name for the SM2 PC. Plus I already kinda named somebody else Nik by mistake. I also have a new party member who will be mine forever.... I was wondering if any of the "named people" would be female. The fact the one named female is my apparent eternal "companion" is...maybe problematic? I named her Yuko after my teacher in Nocturne aka the only human character in that game worth a damn.

Speaking of Nocturne, I remember Gaians and Messians from the handful of times they were mentioned in Nocturne. I don't really remember what the hell they did in Nocturne but they were definitely mentioned towards the start. I think Hikawa was involved with all that somehow but went "rogue" from whichever group he was part of.

The gameplay is...something. It feels like Strange Journey but super primitive and dumb. There are so many needless rooms and hallways. I'm not even talking about obligatory time wasters in dungeons, even non-combat areas have a ton of wasted space. It's a really weird design philosophy.

I was talking to someone on Reddit where a newbie whose first game was P5 was thinking about playing older Persona stuff. Somebody told him that "P2 is a 20-year-old game, it's gonna have problems." There are a lot of 20-year-old games people love and still regularly replay. It just seems like the 20-year-old SMT and Pesona games have aged ten times faster and 20 times worse than Final Fantasy VII or whatever. My conclusion is that they probably just weren't actually that good to begin with.

But I just started SMT2. I'm not trying to be down on it. It's just that I'm kinda sleeping through gameplay right now just to try and advance the story. That is absolutely why I am here. I want to see more of the SMT Mythos

Well my post came to a premature end 'cuz I'm goddam nanoyed. I went to try and stop King Frost and Basilisk but everyone in my party ended up dead. We fough tsome "Depth" monster that I didn't know what the hell to do because all it kept saying was it enveloped itself in water and I'm like what the fuck does that even mean. I had Yuko use Jionga on it which I guess worked but didn't seem super effective. It took forever to beat it. I lost a monster fighting it and decided to run away. Only I ran into Basilisk who poisoned MY ENTIRE PARTY so everyone died. I spent every last Yen I own to revive Yuko and Angel. My Jack Frost and Hag? Dead.

I was so fucking happy to finally have a real team at last. I got this Hag, Jack Frost, Angel and Alp plus Yuko. Only now I can't even get at some of my acquisitions because I spent every last bit of money I've gathered all game just to revive two of them.

So I'm irritated and stopping for now. There better be a nice and easy way to grind money in this game. This game isn't exactly giving me any help. I have to figure out what half the items and stuff I have even do all on my own.

P..S.

Some jackass I remember on another forum talked about how he could fuse Metatron or Micheal in the first hour of this game and steamroll everything. Fuck that guy.

[Fynn]

Pffff. Have you played FFVII lately? That thing is slow as molasses!

[Forsaken Lover]

Pffff. Have you played FFVII lately? That thing is slow as molasses!

I have, actually. I've replayed VII a few times in the last couple years. Not all the way through each time but still a decent bit of it.

Sorry dude but even those few who will go to bat for P2 in terms of story have long since conceded it plays absolutely terribly.

No one is going to vouch for Persona 2 having better gameplay than FFVI or VII.

[Fynn]

I'll give you FFVI, but P2's gameplay is more fun to me than FFVII's at this point. At least in P2 the battles go faster because you can skip the animations. In FFVII, every stupid little fire spell gets 15 different camera angles to show off those amazing polygons they suddenly discovered that day. Seriously, people give IX crap for being slow, but at least in that game the ATB bar never stops, so you at least have stuff to do while the animations play out. In VII, even on active, all action is halted so you can watch the stupid spell animation. It's dumb. Makes me enjoy P2 more. But what the hell, call me wrong or whatever. Funny how people can have different tastes and shit.

[Forsaken Lover]

You're free to like or dislike whatever you wan. I'd be the world's biggest hypocrite if isaid popularity = being correct seeing as how I really dislike P5 and it's widely beloved.

But I feel it's perfectly fair to say the general opinion is one way or another. That's what I was getting at originally. FFVII is still replayed to this day by a great many people. Obviously they don't hate it. Nobody adds the qualifier "but it was made 20 years ago so be forewarned."

Persona 2 being old is not its problem, basically.

[Fynn]

I think this is also due to the fact that everyone and their mother played FFVII back in the day, but not Innocent Sin, so coming back to it is more familiar. Newcomers to FF are just as wary of the older titles as new Persona/SMT fans are of the earlier games. Still, with FF the gameplay changes pretty drastically from game to game nowadays, so maybe it's easier to expect something different from the past titles. With Megaten, it's all just slightly different takes on turn-based.

But I digress. Haven't played SMT II myself, but I did beat SMT I on iOS and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a great way to spend my commute and I was actually not at all bothered by the very basic battle system. The face that demons never leveled up is something I kind of miss in later titles now since it really encouraged you to experiment with fusion and all that felt very rewarding. I can only assume it works similarly in SMT II.

Never really heard they were going for something sillier, tbh. From interviews with Cozy and Kaneko, I only heard that their main idea behind the series was maintaining a "punk-like attitude" - as in, the games are kind of meant to be counter culture. And they kinda succeeded - at the time, most RPGs were classic good vs evil storylines in fantasy (occasionally sci-fi) settings, and a modern/post-apocalyptic setting with demons and tons of moral ambiguity combined with a general sense of misanthropy (I mean, really, in the end humans are the real dicks of this universe, whether law or chaos aligned) goes in as far an opposite direction as possible at the time. And I really like that. Up until a certain point, at least (though I believe it's still at the whole series' core, even though some megaten redditors disagree), the series has this kind of defiance against what is safe and expected to sell well and usually doesn't compromise its messages for the sake of marketability.