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View Full Version : How to easily improve the story? Spoilers within!



Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 12:53 PM
Of course there could overall be a longer story and a lot of additonal story being written in. And I am really glad that we get an extended story with the DLC but it will hardly change the moment that in my opinion could have easily made things better:


Do not kill off Luna in Chapter 9
Make her join your team for the next chapters. Ignis gets blinded nonetheless, also you have more present time with Luna this way and she can grow more on you than just from flashbacks and stories that are told about her
Let her be killed off by Ardyn in Chapter 13 right before the Crystal incident: Noctis tries to get his revenge on Ardyn, has no chance and gets sucked into the Crystal. When he wakes up 10 years later he gets the Trident

Fox
12-09-2016, 01:06 PM
Good suggestions TBH. They wouldn't have redeemed it entirely by any means in my eyes, but those changes could add a lot of impact to certain key moments.

Fynn
12-09-2016, 01:13 PM
Jesus, Fox, who hurt you :p

Fox
12-09-2016, 01:15 PM
Jesus, Fox, who hurt you :p

What, I thought that was a pretty positive response! :D

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 01:32 PM
Also, it is not as important for me because I think it was handled at least better but I think Ardyn's presentation should have been way different.

Loony BoB
12-09-2016, 02:09 PM
I'm actually not too overly fussed about the Luna stuff I saw (or did not see) to be honest. They perhaps gave her too much importance prior to the game being released. I mean, I get that she is important to some degree, but I don't see the point in elongating her return just so she can join your party. We already have three other people who join your party as it is. We don't have to have Luna join too. I like the idea that the moment we finally get to see the person we've come all this way for is the moment that she gets destroyed. I mean, initially I wanted to see more of Luna but in retrospect I kind of appreciate the feels we got and don't think we need to elongate that too much.

What I WOULD change...

- More/clearer story regarding what happens with...
--- Ravus
--- The Emperor
--- Luna
--- Ignis (blinding part)

Essentialy the above would cover the finer details of what was going on with them all, and answer most (I like having some imagination and theorising left to players) questions that we were left wanting for.

- More time spent in the World of Ruin. Like, a lot more. Not even half the time we spent in Lucis by any stretch, but enough time to visit these other locations and people we used to know and see how they are getting on, how they have changed, etc.

- Postgame should unlock the ability to add previous guest party members back into your party on demand.

- More background regarding Prompto's personal revelation. Or more build-up. I dunno. It felt very rushed, despite the annoying length of the chapter.

Honestly though, I'm happy with how it is. These are just things that would make it notably better, at least for me.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 02:15 PM
Yes, Bob, please change the title and fix the typo.

I do not really want Luna in the team just so she can be in the team but to get this "Aerith is in your team, you get more story moments and interaction, et cetera, you can grow to like her more" and all. She just felt so thrown away for me and I want that moment to be more moving for me. That was essentially my biggest complaint. As said, it could easily have been even longer overall but anyway I would have wanted more scenes where I could feel more for her. Your details also cover Luna and depending on how they would play out they could also result in something that I would like. Of course I also want to know more about the others. But that for me personally was the biggest problem apart from "the story is short".

I think anyone here knows that I love all Final Fantasys. For me this is just the same thing as "damnit why didn't they show as ultimate scene in Lightning Returns how Snow and Serah got married and then with Lightning smiling in the end" or something instead of just "we wanted the story to end with Lightning.

Loony BoB
12-09-2016, 02:25 PM
Updated. :up:

And yeah, I get that. I think what would have been interesting is if - without actually engaging in battles - we got to actually control Luna as a one-woman-party while she did her own scenes. We could have all those cutscenes with her in their youth and while she was away from Lucis and everything. It'd help people get more endeared to her without making her into some kind of battle hardened badass (which I don't feel she needed to be - her showing against Leviathan showed how badass she was at staying strong without the need to engage in active battles).

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 02:28 PM
Maybe some of the new parts that we get cover at least a bit of Luna It could help me somewhat. As said I am already glad that we get more in the first place.

Fox
12-09-2016, 02:31 PM
Yeah, that would have been a good solution. It would also flesh out the world more as she has very different interactions with it compared to Noctis and co. I would especially be interested to see more of her and Ravus. Having control of her on her own would have made her feel more like a character with some agency.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 02:33 PM
I feel having her in the team would just be extremely good for options like when you get to Tenebrae which just was another location where you basically could not do a thing. Have more options there and as it is where Luna comes from she could also play a more significant role there in the story with own scenes where she actually speaks with you than just the old lady talking about her. It would be different. Luna's entire existence was carried through stories and flashbacks except for very brief moments. But yes, even if it was a flashback it could probably have been better if it would just have been longer and her own, I don't know, 2 chapters or so where you could get story with her and play ... with her. That sounds so wrong.

Psychotic
12-09-2016, 02:36 PM
In addition to what's already been said about other areas of the game which I broadly agree with, the whole invasion of Insomnia was also poorly done. Why is the invasion a big deal? Have they occupied it or did they just smash and grab with the crystal? If they have occupied it, how are the people doing - are they suffering or in internment camps or anything like that? Is there a resistance? Noctis is pissed off about it and talks about taking it back, but why? Does he want justice? Does he want revenge? Does he want to help the suffering people? Or is it that the crystal is such a powerful weapon that he wants to get it back from the Empire no matter the cost to civilian life? He's dead and then he's not dead - so are the empire even looking for him? Sure, there's Magitek troops dumped on him on a regular basis but it doesn't feel like he's actually being hunted.

It also seems like Leide, Duscae etc were barely affected at all besides a few roadblocks - you think there would be food shortages and the like with a major neighbour falling. And surely there'd be tens of thousands of refugees and casualties streaming out of the Crown City beyond main characters like Cor and Iris?

Essentially, there's apparently a war going on. So, uh, show me.

Fox
12-09-2016, 02:40 PM
FFIX and X both do this quite well by simply letting you back into the places that have been struck by disaster. Kilika after Sin, or Alexandria after Bahamut.

It's nice to see people working on rebuilding as well. That's a sure way to hammer home the effect of the diaster. Not letting you explore Insomnia before the World of Ruin was a big mistake in my eyes. You had no sense of contrast. It was shocking to see Alexandria/Kilika in ruins because I'd seen them before the disasters. Insomnia may as well have been just another dungeon.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 02:42 PM
FFIX and X both do this quite well by simply letting you back into the places that have been struck by disaster. Kilika after Sin, or Alexandria after Bahamut.

It's nice to see people working on rebuilding as well. Not letting you explore Insomnia before the World of Ruin was a big mistake in my eyes. You had no sense of contrast. It was shocking to see Alexandria/Kilika in ruins because I'd seen them before the disasters. Insomnia may as well have been just another dungeon.

Insomnia basically was another dungeon.

They just had the plan that Insomnia should be the final thing once the story comes to an end and I think that is actually not all that of a bad decision but as I already said when I finished the game 2 weeks ago "there could have been so much more, this game has so much room for improvement". Let's see what we get. But surely not all we want.

Loony BoB
12-09-2016, 03:06 PM
While I agree it would have been cool to go back to Insomnia before the world of ruin, I also understand why we weren't able to. That was very much the heart of the Empire territory on Lucis, and going back there wouldn't make sense. I mean, I'm sure they could have managed it at a stretch, but the place was crawling with daemons and empire troops last I saw and I don't think it looked like there would be anything there but a fancy looking Fortress dungeon.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 03:08 PM
Also I thought it was one of the better ideas that it is the final stop. And it got even more touching that it was only possible after a time skip. The city itself could still have had more story scenes once you were there. What they could have done for Insomnia though, as Umbra does no literal time travelling but "revisting memories" as it was called, so basically just pseudo-time travelling, that you would have been able to do something in Past Insomnia in one of the final chapters and then in chapter 15 of course as well.

Psychotic
12-09-2016, 03:11 PM
I mean, I'm sure they could have managed it at a stretch, but the place was crawling with daemons and empire troops last I saw and I don't think it looked like there would be anything there but a fancy looking Fortress dungeon.Which is precisely why I ask: What about the millions of people who lived in the Crown City? Where did they go? What happened to them? If Noctis, their Prince/King, doesn't even care, what hope do we have?

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 03:13 PM
I mean, I'm sure they could have managed it at a stretch, but the place was crawling with daemons and empire troops last I saw and I don't think it looked like there would be anything there but a fancy looking Fortress dungeon.Which is precisely why I ask: What about the millions of people who lived in the Crown City? Where did they go? What happened to them? If Noctis, their Prince/King, doesn't even care, what hope do we have?

Well, some evacuated as we saw at the end of Kingsglaive. It is safe to say that a lot died from WEAPON and MagiTek.

Loony BoB
12-09-2016, 03:21 PM
They were probably all killed and/or turned into daemons. =|

But yeah, it's not a bad point. I too would like to know what happened there. I figured those people who were meeting Luna to get healed were probably refugees from Lucis (or at least, partially).

Still, it's not exactly unheard of in Final Fantasy games for a city to get wrecked and for there to be no notable amount of survivors.

Fox
12-09-2016, 03:31 PM
Still, it's not exactly unheard of in Final Fantasy games for a city to get wrecked and for there to be no notable amount of survivors.

I'm always surprised how many survived Cleyra. I mean it basically got nuked.

Psychotic
12-09-2016, 03:31 PM
Then show us! The genocide of millions of people is an unspeakable atrocity. I don't think it should be casually dismissed.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 03:39 PM
Show what? How people get fried by Diamond Flash? No thank you.

Psychotic
12-09-2016, 03:53 PM
Nah, nothing so crude. Show Noctis and other people actually giving a trout. Look at how things are whenever a major terrorist attack occurs - it's all people can talk about for days afterwards and a general atmosphere of fear prevails. Not "oh man my wife just got a promotion lol!" or "Saw a Magitek trooper the other day CAN YOU BELIEVE IT!" etc. And yes, refugees and survivors throughout the Leide and Duscae regions.

Fynn
12-09-2016, 03:56 PM
Honestly, i know I haven't played the game, but from what I gathered, the story has a tight focus on Noctis' personal journey. Not saying what occured in the game was done well (because I don;t know, I just know raw facts), but in general, speaking from experience, it's always better to know what your story is about and focus on that rather than show everything you can just so you can tick stuff off of a list.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 03:57 PM
Honestly, i know I haven't played the game, but from what I gathered, the story has a tight focus on Noctis' personal journey. Not saying what occured in the game was done well (because I don;t know, I just know raw facts), but in general, speaking from experience, it's always better to know what your story is about and focus on that rather than show everything you can just so you can tick stuff off of a list.

The problem is it is really narrowed down extremely. Noctis' story part being the main focus is no problem at all. That can be done as well.

Fynn
12-09-2016, 03:59 PM
Of course, you played the game and you know better than me. There is such a thing as too much focus. But personally, from what I know, at least, it doesn't feel like seeing what happened to the people of Insomnia is that relevant to this story, especially since, like you all say, it's perfectly easy to infer what happened.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 04:00 PM
Of course, you played the game and you know better than me. There is such a thing as too much focus. But personally, from what I know, at least, it doesn't feel like seeing what happened to the people of Insomnia is that relevant to this story, especially since, like you all say, it's perfectly easy to infer what happened.

And even Noctis' story could easily be more.

It really is such a pity. That is also why that Update from Tabata-san made me really glad.

Psychotic
12-09-2016, 04:18 PM
But personally, from what I know, at least, it doesn't feel like seeing what happened to the people of Insomnia is that relevant to this story, especially since, like you all say, it's perfectly easy to infer what happened.As far as the personal story goes, yes, it should be relevant! It's the story of how Noctis transforms from Prince to King - King of what, exactly? Can this bratty teenage punk become a man, a leader that people rally around? He's a bit pissed off about his Dad dying, briefly, and that's mostly because he didn't tell him the trout was about to hit the proverbial. That's it. How does he cope with the adversity of seeing the people he is supposed to be protecting suffering and there is nothing he can do? I don't know because it seems like he doesn't care and as such I wouldn't want him anywhere near the throne.

But even more important than that, it's about world building. The world is meant to be one of the stars of the game. How can I get invested in this game and believe this fantasy world - "based on reality" - is possible when something as catastrophic as war isn't really a thing? But look, even if we go with the idea that it's Noctis's story so we don't need to dedicate lots of story time to the war, can't we devote some sidequest time instead? Oh boy, this chef needs you to buy a tomato! Wacky Italian guy wants you to find a gemstone! This random guy's car's broken down! How about instead some refugees need you to get them some water? How about a lost child who got separated during the evacuation wants you to find her parents? Same for marks - how about instead of killing a random monster you go to an Imperial Prison Camp and kill some Magitek troops to rescue some suffering Insomnians? Exactly the same gameplay - "go here and get/kill thing X" but it actually has some wider significance and meaning.

Sephiroth
12-09-2016, 04:20 PM
Sounds not too bad. And you can still have that other stuff.

Necronopticous
12-09-2016, 07:21 PM
More Jared (https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/finalfantasyxv.gamepedia.com/e/e8/Jared.jpg?version=f7eacec5f17568c1eba4bddefc695cfe)

Carl the Llama
12-10-2016, 03:10 AM
I think having Luna as a DLC would be more suitable to requirements, like a Luna journey and what she goes through before/during/after Kingsglaive and maybe flesh out Nyx's backstory and add Libertus as well cause... there is no mention of him (that I have found) in XV, it could also include Ravus' motivations and give us a better understanding of the empires motivations.

As for Psy' suggestion about doing more save prisoner x from camp y thing, I don't think this would be possible, I think they pretty much all got converted into Daemons, after all, isn't that what happened in the WoR? As you and Talcott drive towards hammerhead you see thousands of Daemons all over the place, this would explain why A: There are no survivors from Insomnia and B: why people aren't talking about it - because it isn't known where Daemons come from.

When you discover people are being turned into Daemons its supposed to be shocking, it would lessen it so if people escaped from some PoW camp and were all "OMG THEY DUN TURNING PEOPLE INTO DAEMONS" kinda thing. I think this too could be a thing to add into the Luna DLC I mentioned before. They could also very well make an entire FFXV-2 prequel out of the whole fiasco.

As for expanding the world/lore, I think they could probably get away with doing an entire prequel game, where they include King Regis's on his journey to gather his Kingly weapons, his plans for Noctis etc.

The way they have left things now reeks of future DLC and expanded games, I think they have hit the "sweet spot" where they have enough intrigue and likeability in the game so they can milk it for all its worth, which has Squeenix written all over it, and with the season pass included in the collectors edition they have to churn out some serious DLC to make it worth the money.

Aulayna
12-10-2016, 03:47 PM
Insomnia kinda gets relegated to radio news bulletins. There's multiple broadcasts about the Empire aiding with relief efforts in Insomnia, but as we know from how deliberately inaccurate those broadcasts are, the reality is probably "the empire is shipping survivors off en masse to somewhere."

That being said, there are ambient dialogues between random cardboard cut-out NPCs that talk about seeing Magitek Troopers etc, but rarely are they in an aggressive tone. By the sounds of things it seems like the Empire goes in, fucks shit up and takes what it wants, and then just leaves token forces around as "peacekeepers."

Scruffington
12-11-2016, 04:57 PM
Probably isn't a good idea to have the fate of three antagonists (Verstael, Iedolas and Ravus) occur off-screen. Especially after two of them had only one cutscene in the entire game, which was 11 chapters ago.

Psychotic
12-11-2016, 05:56 PM
What even happened to Verstael? If we were told I can't remember it.

Sephiroth
12-11-2016, 06:01 PM
He eventually realized he was not part of the game and left.

Scruffington
12-11-2016, 06:05 PM
What even happened to Verstael? If we were told I can't remember it.

We weren't. The dude just shows up for one scene and disappears for the rest of the game.

It seems he was introduced only to have his story told in the Prompto DLC, considering the guide states that he is Prompto's father. Pretty disgusting of SE to cut out his story to sell to us later.


He eventually realized he was not part of the game and left.

Lol.

Tyson
12-12-2016, 01:04 AM
considering the guide states that he is Prompto's father. Pretty disgusting of SE to cut out his story to sell to us later.

WAIT WHAT!!! How was that not explained in game?

This game is getting more and more disappointing :/

Scruffington
12-12-2016, 01:30 AM
considering the guide states that he is Prompto's father. Pretty disgusting of SE to cut out his story to sell to us later.

WAIT WHAT!!! How was that not explained in game?

This game is getting more and more disappointing :/

I don't personally have the guide, but that's what it says.

The disappointment really only gets worse if you've read anything about the 4chan leak or the NeoGAF thread.

There are a bunch of things that never made it into the game, whether due to time constraints or just simply scrapping parts of the story. King Regis was intended to be killed by his bodyguards in front of Noctis. Noctis was supposed to be responsible for Luna's death (I'm pretty sure it was an accident) causing Ravus to hate him. A bunch of things were left out of the final release, like Ardyn's "monster" form (him being the only villain in the entire FF series to not have one) and a dark Lestallum from the final chapter.

And all of that not even including the parts that we DID see that were cut from the trailer. The E3 2013 trailer, with a few scenes like Regis and Noctis eating dinner together, is almost completely cut from the final release. The Dawn trailer with Regis holding Noctis? Not in the game. And remember that one trailer with Noctis drinking coffee while camping under the moon saying "Almost there." ? Not in the game either. I'm pretty sure the moon was supposed to be a bigger point in the game. It's even the logo that they printed on the special FFXV PS4's. Yet it has absolutely zero significance.

All of these were what I expected the story to consist of. All of them would have made the story better. It's a damn shame what this game turned out to be.

Fox
12-12-2016, 09:00 AM
Ugh, stop describing a game I would be more interested in. It's too painful :cry:

Aulayna
12-13-2016, 12:58 AM
And remember that one trailer with Noctis drinking coffee while camping under the moon saying "Almost there." ? Not in the game either.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, when it comes to this point I'm almost certain I remember Tabata saying during an ATR that this scene was made purposefully for that trailer, to tease fans into expecting more substantial details soon and that the wait for FFXV was nearly over.

I do feel like the moon in general was meant to be more substantial but then got re-worked into the more generic "daemons come out at night" thing. There was a glitch in the Episode Duscae demo which you could use to get out of the bounds of the demo area, and at a certain point the moon would increase in size and turn red.

Scruffington
12-13-2016, 02:50 AM
And remember that one trailer with Noctis drinking coffee while camping under the moon saying "Almost there." ? Not in the game either.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, when it comes to this point I'm almost certain I remember Tabata saying during an ATR that this scene was made purposefully for that trailer, to tease fans into expecting more substantial details soon and that the wait for FFXV was nearly over.

I do feel like the moon in general was meant to be more substantial but then got re-worked into the more generic "daemons come out at night" thing. There was a glitch in the Episode Duscae demo which you could use to get out of the bounds of the demo area, and at a certain point the moon would increase in size and turn red.

That specific part of the trailer wasn't really plot heavy, and did seem like more a nod towards fans who had been waiting a long time for the game. Yet it also seemed to display the moon pretty significantly. I guess I just don't really understand the logic behind making a trailer with 0% content from the actual game.

I'm realizing now just how Square Enix seriously misused their resources for this game. Did they really need to produce so many trailers in which none of the content would be used in the game itself? Could they really think of no better way to tell the story than dividing it up into three different forms of media (anime, film, game)? And did they absolutely have to devote so many resources to making ultra-realistic food models in game?

On that last point, I honestly don't want Tabata to ever touch a Final Fantasy game again. His entire "reality" approach drives me insane. Devoting resources towards food models, in-game advertisements and a damn Cup Noodles sidequest is a slap in the face to fans of the series' appreciation for the fantasy aspect of the series.

..I got a little bit off-topic there. Whoops.