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Kappy
12-12-2016, 01:59 PM
I've seen a lot of criticism levelled at this Chapter.

Is it just me who didn't think it was that bad, just a little overlong? I thought it was a nice change of pace (to quote Ignis).

Also - the Foras, was that meant to be the Emperor? That's a little disappointing too.

Otherwise, I thought it was fine.

By the way: I'm yet to finish the game (I'm at Chapter 15 just a little underlevelled) so no ending spoilers please, if it's relevant!

Sephiroth
12-12-2016, 02:00 PM
Yes I also enjoyed it but thought it was too long.

And indeed, Iedolas was turned into that monster. I would not be too disappointed for long because we have yet to see which story additions await us.

Fox
12-12-2016, 02:02 PM
I've seen a lot of criticism levelled at this Chapter.

Is it just me who didn't think it was that bad, just a little overlong? I thought it was a nice change of pace (to quote Ignis).

Just a lot overlong!


Also - the Foras, was that meant to be the Emperor? That's a little disappointing too.


Yup!

Also I hated how they took all your weapons away. Don't get me wrong, I understand why from a narrative perspective. But the combat system is the most fun part of the game and when you take that away it becomes not-so-fun. And the ring was not a very enjoyable replacement. My friend and I have been discussing how we would fix Chapter 13 and it essentially boils down to giving Noctis a gun (we thought that'd be interesting as it's probably one of the lesser used weapons in normal play), making the death spell more interesting to use and shortening all the half-hearted stealth sections.

Kappy
12-12-2016, 02:06 PM
Oh, there was a fight against that Gargantuan that I spent AGES trying to beat by just covering with Holy, only to find out that it's not bloody necessary :mad2:

Sephiroth
12-12-2016, 02:08 PM
Oh, there was a fight against that Gargantuan that I spent AGES trying to beat by just covering with Holy, only to find out that it's not bloody necessary :mad2:

I deathed him.

Then he respawned.

Psychotic
12-12-2016, 02:10 PM
Sorry Kappy, I enjoyed FFXV's gameplay overall but Chapter 13 was a trainwreck of a chapter, even moreso than the chapter with an actual trainwreck. I can roughly see what they were going for with it but they didn't succeed. I've never been a fan of games that give you a series of abilities, let you master them over the course of the game, then suddenly snatch them away again. I was having fun with those abilities and powers! You don't need to take them away from me and stop them having fun!

I got sort of a Resident Evil vibe to the chapter with the jumpscares of shock troopers coming back to life, the key puzzles and the logs about experiments. Let's work with that! Go all out horror. Replace the generic lab corridors with some truly messed up and scary stuff. They're experimenting on people and turning into daemons? That's horrifying, make me feel horrified! Show me the consequences!

The stealth element to it has to go. Aren't we past the era of games needing an arbitrary stealth section now? A couple of alcoves to hide in down a long corridor is just boring. Not enough options or variety involved. Once you were rumbled by an axe man you may as well just drop the controller. Fleeing, a mechanic which has been available throughout the entire game, was simply not possible as their aggro zone covered the whole base area. You're left trying to fight and it's not pretty.

I agree with what you said about its length!

Sephiroth
12-12-2016, 02:11 PM
Sorry Kappy, I enjoyed FFXV's gameplay overall but Chapter 13 was a trainwreck of a chapter, even moreso than the chapter with an actual trainwreck. I can roughly see what they were going for with it but they didn't succeed. I've never been a fan of games that give you a series of abilities, let you master them over the course of the game, then suddenly snatch them away again. I was having fun with those abilities and powers! You don't need to take them away from me and stop them having fun!

I got sort of a Resident Evil vibe to the chapter with the jumpscares of shock troopers coming back to life, the key puzzles and the logs about experiments. Let's work with that! Go all out horror. Replace the generic lab corridors with some truly messed up and scary stuff. They're experimenting on people and turning into daemons? That's horrifying, make me feel horrified! Show me the consequences!

The stealth element to it has to go. Aren't we past the era of games needing an arbitrary stealth section now? A couple of alcoves to hide in down a long corridor is just boring. Not enough options or variety involved. Once you were rumbled by an axe man you may as well just drop the controller. Fleeing, a mechanic which has been available throughout the entire game, was simply not possible as their aggro zone covered the whole base area. You're left trying to fight and it's not pretty.

I agree with what you said about its length!

Oh you guys.

You have never finished Pitioss Ruins and Menace below Steyliff and below Castlemark.

Chapter 13 is a blessing of Yevon.

Psychotic
12-12-2016, 02:13 PM
Actually I have just completed Costlemark Tower and I preferred it to Chapter 13. Just. Those infinite spawning thunder bombs was a terrible design decision. The primary difference though is that it's entirely optional and not part of the main game.

Sephiroth
12-12-2016, 02:14 PM
Actually I have just completed Costlemark Tower and I preferred it to Chapter 13. Just. Those infinite spawning thunder bombs was a terrible design decision. The primary difference though is that it's entirely optional and not part of the main game.

Menace sleeping below Costlemark.

That is not what you did.

Level 99, No Item, 60 Floors.

And Steyliff allows Items but has 100 Floors.

Kappy
12-12-2016, 02:21 PM
Oh, there was a fight against that Gargantuan that I spent AGES trying to beat by just covering with Holy, only to find out that it's not bloody necessary :mad2:

I deathed him.

Then he respawned.

Yeah I used Alterna on him once and he immediately came back, so I figured I had to beat him manually. Turns out he had nothing to do with progressing and you just needed to sneak by him.

Psychotic
12-12-2016, 02:51 PM
Actually I have just completed Costlemark Tower and I preferred it to Chapter 13. Just. Those infinite spawning thunder bombs was a terrible design decision. The primary difference though is that it's entirely optional and not part of the main game.

Menace sleeping below Costlemark.

That is not what you did.

Level 99, No Item, 60 Floors.

And Steyliff allows Items but has 100 Floors.Well, that's the beauty of them being optional. They don't sound like fun so I'm not going to play them :p

Scruffington
12-12-2016, 03:04 PM
Probably one of the worst chapters in the history of Final Fantasy.

I can totally see what they were going for with this chapter. Isolating Noctis, making the player feel completely alone and helpless. Yet they executed it so, so poorly. There have been some bad segments in past FF games, yet none have made me truly want a chapter to end like XV's 13 did.

I also feel it's kind of a showcase of the game's lost identity. Stealth segments? Jump scares? I wasn't even sure I was playing a Final Fantasy game.

Necronopticous
12-12-2016, 07:42 PM
I liked the part where there are bunk beds in Umbrella Corp.

Nice
12-12-2016, 09:53 PM
It was rubbish. Like it was said earlier, I get the overall idea behind Chapter 13 but it was executed so poorly. The fact that you can't use your weapons was the first annoyance. Then there was the constant monologue of Ardyn. I found that to be very bothersome. The camera kept getting stuck during some of the battles in the corridors too.

If I was weak I would have the quit the game because of this chapter.

Aulayna
12-13-2016, 01:07 AM
I honestly just rumbled all of the Axe guys and flat-out ignored the stealth element apart from when it came to the Iron Giant. The Axe guys have a very obvious attack animation, so it was very easy to just time button presses to kill them with Holy.

I do agree that the chapter was one of good ideas but not very good implementation, that definitely went on for way too long. Like Psy said they could've done so much more with showing something more horrific, especially as the entire point of the chapter is just to introduce the Ring of the Lucii's abilities and show Ardyn toying with Noctis. All the logs you read sound horrific, but then the only remotely horrific things you see are Foras and mutant Ravus and it's just "eh."

DMKA
12-15-2016, 02:08 AM
I actually didn't mind it at all. It reminded me of the older JRPGs where there's always that one gruelingly long dungeon you have to trudge through.

I didn't even ever think about it being bad until I read complaints about it online after the fact.

Kappy
12-15-2016, 11:53 AM
I didn't even ever think about it being bad until I read complaints about it online after the fact.

Yes, same xD If no-one had said anything I don't think I would've bat an eyelid. They just need to shave off 20 or so minutes.

Wolf Kanno
12-17-2016, 08:46 PM
Probably one of the worst chapters in the history of Final Fantasy.
.
*cough*CHAPTER10FFXIII*cough* Sorry it's the cold and flu season.

Overall, my only real beef was that is was way too long. The samey corridors, "stealth" sections, and jump-scares would have worked better if the sections had been more tightly designed and shorter. After awhile it went from"Oh gawd it caught me!!" to "not again...". I didn't mind having the combat shifted around, I felt it really gave the Ring of Lucis a chance to shine and I enjoyed using its powers. It also wouldn't have helped for me cause I need the other party members and access to their Tech skills to keep combat enjoyable, otherwise spamming attacks and dodge/counters would have gotten just as old. Even when I finally got a sword, I rarely used it until the whole party was back together.

My bigger beefs with the Chapter was the huge letdown that was storming the Empire and learning that they pretty much destroyed themselves before you even got there. I was looking forward to the Emperor and Ravus to finally get some screen time and they pulled a Jihl Nabaat on me instead. Prompto's plot twist was also kind of dumb and came out of nowhere.

Sephiroth
12-17-2016, 08:53 PM
I thought chapter 10 of FFXIII was an interesting one. I also thought this one was good, just a bit too long. I love how a MagiTek can spot you, you hide and he drags you out of the corner. To an extent.

Scruffington
12-17-2016, 09:38 PM
Probably one of the worst chapters in the history of Final Fantasy.
.
*cough*CHAPTER10FFXIII*cough* Sorry it's the cold and flu season.

Overall, my only real beef was that is was way too long. The samey corridors, "stealth" sections, and jump-scares would have worked better if the sections had been more tightly designed and shorter. After awhile it went from"Oh gawd it caught me!!" to "not again...". I didn't mind having the combat shifted around, I felt it really gave the Ring of Lucis a chance to shine and I enjoyed using its powers. It also wouldn't have helped for me cause I need the other party members and access to their Tech skills to keep combat enjoyable, otherwise spamming attacks and dodge/counters would have gotten just as old. Even when I finally got a sword, I rarely used it until the whole party was back together.

My bigger beefs with the Chapter was the huge letdown that was storming the Empire and learning that they pretty much destroyed themselves before you even got there. I was looking forward to the Emperor and Ravus to finally get some screen time and they pulled a Jihl Nabaat on me instead. Prompto's plot twist was also kind of dumb and came out of nowhere.

Considering Final Fantasy XIII is one of my favorite games ever, I thought chapter 10 from that game was incredible.

Not only is the theme that plays (Will to Fight) one of my absolute favorite songs from the entire game, but the chapter itself has so much variety.

First of all, it has a really unique vibe to it. Fresh off of chapter 9 (which is one of the best chapters in the game) where you escaped the Palamecia and fought Dysley, the group has crashed into the Fifth Ark. It has a pretty somber atmosphere at the start, as the party decides whether to complete their Focus and destroy Cocoon, or follow Serah's wish and save it. Chapter 10 also includes the "conclusion" of Cid Raines' story in the game more or less, which I thought was pretty well done.

Not only is the story and the music for this chapter really good, but the setting and enemies are interesting. Fifth Ark actually originates from Gran Pulse, and is full of subways and skyscrapers. The setting actually feels pretty large. There are so many different enemies you encounter: Flans, Behemoths, Pulsework enemies, Frag Leeches, Zwerg droids, Bombs etc.

I think this chapter actually includes pretty much everything I like about XIII.

Fynn
12-17-2016, 10:05 PM
Oh my God

Chapter 10 was literally the party going "I guess this is where we grind"

Scruffington
12-17-2016, 10:13 PM
Oh my God

Chapter 10 was literally the party going "I guess this is where we grind"

Chapter 10 in XIII did have a pretty dank grind spot. There was one Frag Leech spawn where you could blitz them for 640cp each battle. Pretty good to farm up before the Gran Pulse section.

The Summoner of Leviathan
12-18-2016, 02:38 AM
I actually enjoyed the chapter in how it was supposed to be lost and frustrating like Noctis is feeling. The revelations of the chapters? Poorly handled.

Wolf Kanno
12-19-2016, 09:34 PM
Considering Final Fantasy XIII is one of my favorite games ever, I thought chapter 10 from that game was incredible.

Not only is the theme that plays (Will to Fight) one of my absolute favorite songs from the entire game, but the chapter itself has so much variety.

First of all, it has a really unique vibe to it. Fresh off of chapter 9 (which is one of the best chapters in the game) where you escaped the Palamecia and fought Dysley, the group has crashed into the Fifth Ark. It has a pretty somber atmosphere at the start, as the party decides whether to complete their Focus and destroy Cocoon, or follow Serah's wish and save it. Chapter 10 also includes the "conclusion" of Cid Raines' story in the game more or less, which I thought was pretty well done.

Not only is the story and the music for this chapter really good, but the setting and enemies are interesting. Fifth Ark actually originates from Gran Pulse, and is full of subways and skyscrapers. The setting actually feels pretty large. There are so many different enemies you encounter: Flans, Behemoths, Pulsework enemies, Frag Leeches, Zwerg droids, Bombs etc.

I think this chapter actually includes pretty much everything I like about XIII.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I consider XIII to be the worst FF if not one of the worst games I played last generation. Nothing happens in Chapter 10 that either under-performs due to poor planning or is completely made pointless a few chapters later. It's stuck between the more impactful Chapter 9 where the writer's suddenly remembered they should actually have a real plot and villain; and it comes before Chapter 11, where the party finally reaches Pulse (the only fun part of the game) where the party ultimately dicks around for several hours before the bad guy shows up to reveal they had a better Plan B anyway.

Fang faces her Eidolon, but she's barely been in the plot and is the least developed character in the story at this point, her revelations doesn't reveal really anything new or exciting about her. You have Cid, another poorly utilized side character who is barely in the plot enough to be impactful, suddenly reveal he's working for the bad guys which would have been more interesting if the story had done a better job building him up as an ally beyond being told he's the head of the rebellion against Dysley. He decides to kill you, which is pretty much what everyone you meet wants to do, so no surprises there, makes the sacrifice to spurn the party on to find another way (they don't) and his rebellion/sacrifice is made moot two chapter later when he's revealed to still be around and being Dysley's little bitch.

The chapter involves just what you've been for the previous 9 chapters, running through samey corridors, fighting said corridors samey villains, which are mainly just beefier color swaps of enemies you've fought a dozen times or more before this point. The Paradigm system finally completely opens up, but a) you already have access to the full party (finally) with each one having at least one Paradigm Role properly developed so it's easier to just use a proper party over wasting time leveling up low level roles, b) most of the secondary roles cost two to three times as much XP making them a waste of time to level over just hoarding XP to level up their better roles once a new chapter starts and the level limiter gets raised again, and c) Pulse is a way better leveling spot for the party, especially for gil to raise your gear (the thing that really matters) so basically this chapter is just prolonging your way to the better part of the game.

The Chapter is completely pointless, Cid's revelation of working for the bad guys would have worked better in Chapter 9, giving the impression you're walking into a trap, and his story impact of fighting fate would have worked better if he wasn't brought back two chapters later showing that man is fate's bitch which sends a really confusing message about the game's central theme. Fang should have gotten her Eidolon last, since she's not only the final party member but needed more development to create actual conflict that needs to be resolved instead of rushing through it and making her feel out of place in the whole story. Chapter 9 and 11 would have worked better not to have a slower and ultimately pointless story/game chapter separating the story and game highs of the whole title. There are so many story and game design problems with Chapter 10 that it ultimately ruins the flow of the game, whereas XV's Chapter 13 is at least a giant build up to the story's bigger revelations, and as Summoner of Leviathan mentions, the gameplay changes work to place the player in the same mindset of Noctis who is confused, frustrated, and ultimately sick of all the shit you're being put through.

The big clincher here for me is that I feel removing Chapter 10 in XIII wouldn't hurt the game one bit. Whereas removing Chapter 13 in XV would be very problematic for the game overall, because actual relevant shit happens in it. Chapter 13's issue is that it overstays it's welcome, gives the raw deal to Nifelheim's cast, and the last ditch effort to give Prompto some character development horribly backfires.

Kappy
12-19-2016, 09:56 PM
I actually enjoyed the chapter in how it was supposed to be lost and frustrating like Noctis is feeling. The revelations of the chapters? Poorly handled.

I get the feeling Prompto's big reveal was supposed to elicit a big "OMGWTF!!" reaction from us but instead I was just a bit "meh". Might have something to do with the game refusing to flesh out its characters.

Hopefully his DLC will help...

Wolf Kanno
12-19-2016, 10:02 PM
I actually enjoyed the chapter in how it was supposed to be lost and frustrating like Noctis is feeling. The revelations of the chapters? Poorly handled.

I get the feeling Prompto's big reveal was supposed to elicit a big "OMGWTF!!" reaction from us but instead I was just a bit "meh". Might have something to do with the game refusing to flesh out its characters.

Hopefully his DLC will help...

I'm under the impression it was designed to make you pick up the DLC.

Kappy
12-19-2016, 11:51 PM
And that's everything wrong with modern gaming, in a nutshell.

I guess that's the business model now!

Scruffington
12-20-2016, 01:58 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree then because I consider XIII to be the worst FF if not one of the worst games I played last generation. Nothing happens in Chapter 10 that either under-performs due to poor planning or is completely made pointless a few chapters later. It's stuck between the more impactful Chapter 9 where the writer's suddenly remembered they should actually have a real plot and villain; and it comes before Chapter 11, where the party finally reaches Pulse (the only fun part of the game) where the party ultimately dicks around for several hours before the bad guy shows up to reveal they had a better Plan B anyway.

You must not have played many games then. And out of those, you must have only played very highly rated games. Because even if you dislike XIII, calling it "one of the worst games of the generation" is an extreme overreaction.

Chapter 10 is a transitional chapter. Chapters 4-8 are about the group going off on their own ways and developing their stories (Snow/Fang, Lightning/Hope, Sazh/Vanille) leading into the eventual confrontation with Dysley in Chapter 9 with the gang back together. The plot was always progressing towards Pulse. Chapter 10 therefore acts as somewhat of a transitional chapter, which I think it excels at. The characters reinforce their convictions, and resolve to move forward into Pulse.


Fang faces her Eidolon, but she's barely been in the plot and is the least developed character in the story at this point, her revelations doesn't reveal really anything new or exciting about her. You have Cid, another poorly utilized side character who is barely in the plot enough to be impactful, suddenly reveal he's working for the bad guys which would have been more interesting if the story had done a better job building him up as an ally beyond being told he's the head of the rebellion against Dysley. He decides to kill you, which is pretty much what everyone you meet wants to do, so no surprises there, makes the sacrifice to spurn the party on to find another way (they don't) and his rebellion/sacrifice is made moot two chapter later when he's revealed to still be around and being Dysley's little bitch.

The only part I have an issue with is how close the Fang, Hope and Vanille Eidolon encounters are to each other. They weren't paced well. Aside from that, Fang was only introduced in Chapter 6. And she makes it clear from the outset that she's from Pulse, so we won't get more of her backstory until we reach that place which is in Chapter 11. And whether or not you find her story interesting or not is entirely your opinion. I personally found her and Vanille's dynamic interesting, considering they both awoke from a crystal stasis yet she was the only one who lost her memories.

Cid's presence in the plot wasn't substantial enough to be impactful when he unwillingly betrays you, but that doesn't mean he's a bad character. He was an unfortunate character. He had been an ally to the party numerous times (helping Snow find the party, bringing them together, helping them board the Palamecia) and wanted to help them even more by overthrowing the fal'Cie. He acts as a vessel for the party to continue their journey; when you beat him, he tells you to choose your own fate and disregard your focus of destroying Cocoon. His words are pretty important considering that's exactly what the party sets out to do.

Cid's entire reasoning for fighting the party is completely different from anyone else's at this point in the game. Because in his mind, he wants to kill you to free you from your focus and save Cocoon. He's not fighting you because Dysley told him to. He turned himself into a Cie'th to fight against his fate, his focus. And his sacrifice isn't moot; he was intended to be revived as the new Primarch. He fought against the fal'Cie by ordering Rygdea to kill him. Cid's story echoes the entire theme of the game: challenging your fate.


The chapter involves just what you've been for the previous 9 chapters, running through samey corridors, fighting said corridors samey villains, which are mainly just beefier color swaps of enemies you've fought a dozen times or more before this point.

This is a common complaint about the game I hear, and it's absolutely asinine. The "corridor simulator" complaint. You know what else is a corridor simulator? Super Mario Bros. That's right, you're on a straight linear path to the end of the game, fighting samey enemies, running through samey environments and levels. But guess what? No one gives a trout. Because Super Mario Bros. is a good game. It's a fun game. And so is Final Fantasy XIII. I love walking through beautiful, unique environments. I love being able to encounter enemies on the map, engage them in battle, and figuring out the most efficient way to win. Let's take another "corridor simulator" example: Final Fantasy X. A game many people consider being the last "good" Final Fantasy. Yet it's even more linear than XIII. There's no huge open world like Pulse in X. Just a linear story with unique environments and enemies along the way. But no one cares about how linear it is, because in the end it's a good game. Just like XIII.

People seem to associate "linear" with "bad" yet forget that some of their favorite games were even more linear.


The Paradigm system finally completely opens up, but a) you already have access to the full party (finally) with each one having at least one Paradigm Role properly developed so it's easier to just use a proper party over wasting time leveling up low level roles, b) most of the secondary roles cost two to three times as much XP making them a waste of time to level over just hoarding XP to level up their better roles once a new chapter starts and the level limiter gets raised again, and c) Pulse is a way better leveling spot for the party, especially for gil to raise your gear (the thing that really matters) so basically this chapter is just prolonging your way to the better part of the game.

Each character has 3 primary roles, and they don't take long to level up pre-chapter 11. I was able to get mine filled out on all characters and bank some extra CP before Pulse with very minimal grinding. There's definitely room to mix and match party members you want to experiment with. And the secondary roles are almost entirely designed for the lategame.


The Chapter is completely pointless, Cid's revelation of working for the bad guys would have worked better in Chapter 9, giving the impression you're walking into a trap, and his story impact of fighting fate would have worked better if he wasn't brought back two chapters later showing that man is fate's bitch which sends a really confusing message about the game's central theme. Fang should have gotten her Eidolon last, since she's not only the final party member but needed more development to create actual conflict that needs to be resolved instead of rushing through it and making her feel out of place in the whole story. Chapter 9 and 11 would have worked better not to have a slower and ultimately pointless story/game chapter separating the story and game highs of the whole title. There are so many story and game design problems with Chapter 10 that it ultimately ruins the flow of the game

The chapter is not pointless at all. Like I stated before, it is a transitional chapter. It's meant to bridge the heavy plot-focused, boss-battle oriented chapter 9 and the exploration-based chapter 11. You can't just have heavy action and heavy plot all the time; you need to pace it out and provide a respite from it every now and then. Chapter 10 does a phenomenal job of that because it acts as a very nice interlude between the two chapters. And I feel like you completely misunderstood Cid's story because, again, he still fought against his fate by ordering Rygdea to kill him in order to defy Dysley's wishes. Fang was given more than enough development by the end of the game. Her entire backstory and relationship with Vanille is completely fleshed out, as well as her motivations for being with the party.

Chapter 10 actually helps the flow of the game by giving the player a transition and respite from the intense chapter it preceded. It also set up the nice chapter quite nicely with Cid Raines' story providing the characters motivation and a clear objective.


whereas XV's Chapter 13 is at least a giant build up to the story's bigger revelations, and as Summoner of Leviathan mentions, the gameplay changes work to place the player in the same mindset of Noctis who is confused, frustrated, and ultimately sick of all the trout you're being put through.

The big clincher here for me is that I feel removing Chapter 10 in XIII wouldn't hurt the game one bit. Whereas removing Chapter 13 in XV would be very problematic for the game overall, because actual relevant trout happens in it. Chapter 13's issue is that it overstays it's welcome, gives the raw deal to Nifelheim's cast, and the last ditch effort to give Prompto some character development horribly backfires.

Story's bigger revelations? Like how the game did all of the antagonists dirty? How the empire's demise was detailed in the form of optional letters you have to pick up off of desks? It revealed that the game was rushed and incomplete, sure. I don't know how you could possibly argue that XV was better than XIII in any way, especially the story. All of XIII's antagonists got proper closure and had complete story arcs. You have to learn about XV's antagonists through a smurfing collectible.

Fynn
12-20-2016, 06:44 AM
I'm sorry, but comparing linearity in an RPG to that in a 2D platformer is a perfect example of false equivalency. And even if you disregard that, at least Mario gives you the option to sequence break if you're smart enough to try some things whereas FFXIII puts you on a literal straight path both literally and in the character progression system (where you can only level up your characters as much as the game lets you at any point) in a genre that has always been about exploration.

And comparing it to X means nothing because Wolf dislikes it too :p

In any case, every part of this discussion is opinion. I don't think there's a real quantifiable means of making a good or bad game. In this case, it's really the matter of what annoys you and how much it annoys you.

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 02:42 PM
Final Fantasy XIII's problem was nothing in-game but peer pressure. From the very beginning in December 2009 the Western audience who has not even officially gotten the game released articles about how the game was "Linear as a piece of string" and showed idiotic examples of maps. You know what did not look like that? Final Fantasy XII. And you know what? I had to read in 2007 when it came out in Europe how many people hated Final Fantasy XII for various reasons like the plot and that the characters are "soulless", even saw screenshots of people breaking their DVD just because they hated the game. And what was back when Final Fantasy X-2 came out? Exactly the same. "Uh it is nothing but a big game of sidequests and mini games, uh it is just a girly game with Sailor Moon animation".

Final Fantasy XIII does lack diversity in terms of what you can do. But it was needlessly pushed up through this atrocious spoiled fanbase.

Final Fantasy XV can still save certain story elements for me but it has one big minus when it comes to first impression: At the end of every FF I literally cried. I did not here. And that is not good. And if not for the final scene I would not know how to feel about the game. Just as XIII-2 had the potential to be hated by me if it would have been the end of the XIII series.

Fynn
12-20-2016, 02:46 PM
While I'll disagree that's the only problem XIII had, I will agree that the FF fanbase is incredibly spoiled, but that's also completely justified by how big and diverse it is.

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 02:50 PM
While I'll disagree that's the only problem XIII had, I will agree that the FF fanbase is incredibly spoiled, but that's also completely justified by how big and diverse it is.

I do not say it had no flaws. I just think it is substancial enough to call it the worst game since E.T. for Atari came out.

Fynn
12-20-2016, 02:54 PM
Well, I haven't played ET, but XIII is certainly one of the worst gaming experiences I've had, tbh

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 03:10 PM
Well, I haven't played ET, but XIII is certainly one of the worst gaming experiences I've had, tbh

This was a hyperbole of mine to show the disgust of the fanbase. You can always look up E.T.

Just look at this fanbase. Really so many aspects of it can be lead back to what I call the "Anti-Hype Hype". Final Fantasy VI without any actual doubt was always a very much liked game. And totally justified in my opinion. However, back when I got first real access to the virtual world, while VI had its big fanbase, it never was treated like this "VII is such an overrated trout, VI is the real deal" representation.
Only a while later people then started to build this Anti-Hype Hype train that was supposed to carry Final Fantasy VI and all the other elements that fans had as part of their ideal for Final Fantasy in mind while this train was supposed to wreck really everything that was not on board. VII, a game that did not feature an almost completely shallow harlequin, opinions of the fanbase about games which could be contradicted by just playing the games or listening to creators, the fans' lack of understanding of certain words which they did not care about because it was just what others said so they hopped on board ... all that was supposed to be doomed. Why? Because it is cool to not go with the flow. Instead, ironically they created their own flow to go with. Nobody likes to read in the newspaper "the world is okay", right? Talking about what bad happened in your eyes in way more interesting. And don't even dare to be someone who tries to say something against it because once the flaws of what got loved through the Anti-Hype Hype will get pointed out, the double standards show once more and try to wipe away your argument. I will not go on with examples now or I could simply give you the links of forums, with eyesonff being included.
The thing here is, no one - or at least no one who is sane - should actually have a problem with people liking or disliking something. It often is the problematic reasoning, inconsistent within either the person or what they rated and of course also the behaviour of people that follows from it (both sides). Quite ridiculous if we are honest, considering what we are talking about but who am I trying to fool here. Humanity is always like that.

You know what I like about the XIII series so much? It is one of the Final Fantasys that gets me actually emotionally invested. Do I want more stuff in XIII? Yes, I do. However, if games get my emotional side that much then one of my greatest expectations is fulfilled.

Scruffington
12-20-2016, 05:53 PM
I'm sorry, but comparing linearity in an RPG to that in a 2D platformer is a perfect example of false equivalency. And even if you disregard that, at least Mario gives you the option to sequence break if you're smart enough to try some things whereas FFXIII puts you on a literal straight path both literally and in the character progression system (where you can only level up your characters as much as the game lets you at any point) in a genre that has always been about exploration.

And comparing it to X means nothing because Wolf dislikes it too :p

In any case, every part of this discussion is opinion. I don't think there's a real quantifiable means of making a good or bad game. In this case, it's really the matter of what annoys you and how much it annoys you.

It's not really false equivalency. My point is a game being linear doesn't make it bad. In fact it actually makes some games even better. Games like The Last of Us are incredibly linear, yet have really expansive levels and open-ended gameplay which make the world feel massive.

People who whined about XIII being a "corridor simulator" just really bother me. They associate a game being straightforward as being bad. And they love to jump on the XIII hate bandwagon because it's the cool thing to do. For me, after playing XV, I really wish they had gone more in the style of XIII.

Fynn
12-20-2016, 06:02 PM
Well, to me, Mario works because you still have a lot to do on the way that depends on your input. In XIII, just holding forward and getting to mash A every battle just got insanely tedious after a while since there really wasn't anything for you to do. There was no way to really dodge the enemies, and it was really futile to do so because the game had already set up a course for you that must be followed because that's the only way for you to be properly leveled.

Of course linearity doesn't have to be a bad thing. I am now replaying FFVIII as part of my marathon of all the games, and it's definitely the most linear experience up to that point when it comes to the story, but with the Junction system, the card game, and the various ways you can play the game, there is just so much stuff to do that it doesn't take away from the experience. For me, XIII was just mind-numbingly boring in terms of gameplay, which would have been terrible even if the story was good. Xenosaga is also an insanely linear game, but the story is fantastic and at least you have to think a little bit on how to navigate dungeons, and there's even a puzzle thrown in here and there. XIII has none of that in its endless hallways, and Gran Pulse is just way too little too late.

I for one cannot imagine how anyone could want this instead of a nice big world to get yourself lost in, but that's just how we all work - everybody has different tastes and sensibilities. And that's okay.

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 06:20 PM
This "You only have to mash A/X" complaint is so blown out of proportion. If you do not manage to switch to the right job classes and such in XIII then you can easily lose so it is not just "mash button xyz". And what is there even to say about other Final Fantasys? Final Fantasy can always be reduced to just a bunch of necessary commands. And in all FFs, also XIII, you can choose to not just go the auto-attack way. Hell, I hated the Gambit idea of automatic battle in XII so much because THAT felt like me not doing anything that I really only used a few of them and pretty much did every single turn myself. Final Fantasy XIII has fast-paced battles so it at least is sort of a good option to have a "what the game considers a smart technique choice" option.

And you can dodge a lot of enemies in XIII. Even those that seem to me not avoidable (not all of them of course). Many of them can be dodged by going in battle, restarting right before the battle and then immediately walking past them. But XIII even makes good use of you fighting because it is needed anyway - as long as you do not go a challenge route.

If you ask me, the combat system of XIII totally fits the game itself. For enemies I would still have gone the route of either using bigger areas where they are placed for the illusion of freedom or random battles. Put in a few more different sidequests in the end and I am totally fine. Of course I could still have a few more changes but overall that's it. Put in a dungeon in those Paddra ruins, maybe do some fishing sidequest, something like that. Final Fantasy XIII took a way more realistic approach when it came to accesibility of locations directly connected to the story. That is what made it a bit problematic in some sorts. It did not go the FFVII "you should be encountered by ShinRa all the time as the pretty much rule the planet but you barely meet them at all and can run around wherever you want" route.

Fynn
12-20-2016, 06:36 PM
Idk, FFXII only played itself if you set it up in that way. Which was an incredibly fulfilling achievement, if you ask me, simply because you did it yourself, not the game.

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 06:40 PM
Idk, FFXII only played itself if you set it up in that way. Which was an incredibly fulfilling achievement, if you ask me, simply because you did it yourself, not the game.

The game gives you the option by finding those Gambits and then lets you use them. There is not really much of a difference, except if you really literally mean doing the setup and not what it results in. XIII just "already has it in battle". And if you ask me with XII you have this whole concept of it being more like an offline MMO. The battles are not supposed to be as dynamic as they tried to make them look in FFXIII, everything is slower. I don't want to go into every battle when it is this slow. That is way worse for me than what XIII did - which I did not even mind. And as said, in both cases you can even skip that option.

Scruffington
12-20-2016, 07:04 PM
In XIII, just holding forward and getting to mash A every battle just got insanely tedious after a while since there really wasn't anything for you to do. There was no way to really dodge the enemies, and it was really futile to do so because the game had already set up a course for you that must be followed because that's the only way for you to be properly leveled.

It's funny because I actually think XV is a total downgrade compared to XIII's gameplay.

XV suffers far more from the "mash A every battle to win" problem than XIII. In XV I was able to complete the game without using a single magic spell (of which there are only three) or summon (of which there are only four, each being extremely circumstantial). I will say that I was using quite a few of the party moves like Gladio's Tempest for a big AoE attack, and Ignis' Enhancement for some of the post-game hunts and bosses. The problem is that none of it was really necessary to beat the game, and the combat just felt repetitive/stale.

XIII had a lot of variety with the Paradigm Shift system. You could set a paradigm full of 3 commandos to rush down mobs in 5 seconds at high level, or you could set a paradigm full of 2 saboteurs and 1 synergist to buff/debuff in a boss battle. Then switch to a paradigm full of 3 sentinels before a big attack happens. You needed to have a specific plan to grind certain mobs. Adamantoise farming had at least 4 different methods, and Behemoth/Megistotherian farming also had a few methods. I just really enjoyed how you could utilize the system to efficiently grind against high level enemies that would kill you under normal circumstances. And some bosses like Barthandelus in Chapter 9 would absolutely rail you if you didn't have a strategy. There was a lot of freedom and flexibility in the system that I felt was lacking in XV. XV's combat mostly just boiled down to attack, roll away, and hold square to parry. It felt restrictive. There wasn't really any farming, and there was no real creativity.

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 07:28 PM
magic spell (of which there are only three).

That is not true.

Scruffington
12-20-2016, 07:45 PM
magic spell (of which there are only three).

That is not true.

Fire, Thunder and Ice are really the only three magic in the game. Sure there are permutations such as venomcast, but they are all variations of the main three. And crafting any spells outside of the main three is extremely tedious and honestly not worth it (save for expericast for the XP boost). I'm obviously excluding the Ring of the Lucii because it isn't acquired until Chapter 13.

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 07:52 PM
magic spell (of which there are only three).

That is not true.

Fire, Thunder and Ice are really the only three magic in the game. Sure there are permutations such as venomcast, but they are all variations of the main three. And crafting any spells outside of the main three is extremely tedious and honestly not worth it (save for expericast for the XP boost). I'm obviously excluding the Ring of the Lucii because it isn't acquired until Chapter 13.


What does it matter if there are three elements that are the basis for all spells. There are tons of spells in the game nonetheless. And not every fire elemental spell looks the same, et cetera. Look at Electon, Flare, et cetera.

And do the Level 99 No Item Dungeon without Healing Spell. If you manage to do that, then wow.

Scruffington
12-20-2016, 08:18 PM
magic spell (of which there are only three).

That is not true.

Fire, Thunder and Ice are really the only three magic in the game. Sure there are permutations such as venomcast, but they are all variations of the main three. And crafting any spells outside of the main three is extremely tedious and honestly not worth it (save for expericast for the XP boost). I'm obviously excluding the Ring of the Lucii because it isn't acquired until Chapter 13.


What does it matter if there are three elements that are the basis for all spells. There are tons of spells in the game nonetheless. And not every fire elemental spell looks the same, et cetera. Look at Electon, Flare, et cetera.

And do the Level 99 No Item Dungeon without Healing Spell. If you manage to do that, then wow.

It matters because everything is just a permutation of the same three spells. You get a fire spell with a poison effect, it's still ultimately a fire spell. It's not a pure poison spell like Bio in past FF games. The crafting system is also not really easy to understand and doesn't really feel as natural. Having to collect the resources to use the spells, then collect parts of monsters to be able to craft better spells is just really tedious and not fun. I'd rather not have to collect spells, parts and then craft to be able to use them, and instead just earn them through leveling up or finding the spell/materia itself from a dungeon.

Magic is nowhere near as intuitive or useful in XV as in every other game to date.

Sephiroth
12-20-2016, 08:20 PM
It is just like Materia Fusion in Crisis Core. You must have hated that too.

Scruffington
12-20-2016, 09:01 PM
It is just like Materia Fusion in Crisis Core. You must have hated that too.

Haven't played Crisis Core unfortunately. :/

Wolf Kanno
12-30-2016, 05:09 AM
You must not have played many games then. And out of those, you must have only played very highly rated games. Because even if you dislike XIII, calling it "one of the worst games of the generation" is an extreme overreaction.

Chapter 10 is a transitional chapter. Chapters 4-8 are about the group going off on their own ways and developing their stories (Snow/Fang, Lightning/Hope, Sazh/Vanille) leading into the eventual confrontation with Dysley in Chapter 9 with the gang back together. The plot was always progressing towards Pulse. Chapter 10 therefore acts as somewhat of a transitional chapter, which I think it excels at. The characters reinforce their convictions, and resolve to move forward into Pulse.

My issue is that it's a boring transition, and it ultimately destroys the momentum created in Chapter 9 and isn't helped by the fact that Chapter 11 isn't exactly the most plot heavy story either until the very end, so instead it just creates an unnecessary lull in a story that has already been dragging longer than it should have been.


The only part I have an issue with is how close the Fang, Hope and Vanille Eidolon encounters are to each other. They weren't paced well. Aside from that, Fang was only introduced in Chapter 6. And she makes it clear from the outset that she's from Pulse, so we won't get more of her backstory until we reach that place which is in Chapter 11. And whether or not you find her story interesting or not is entirely your opinion. I personally found her and Vanille's dynamic interesting, considering they both awoke from a crystal stasis yet she was the only one who lost her memories.

I agree that having all of them on top of each other was a poor move, especially since Hope really needed the extra oomph in the chapters he's stuck with Lightning and Fang needed far more development before just dumping it on us while characters like Hope and Vanille, who have been here since the beginning get theirs so late and many cases felt more like an after thought on the writer's part since both of them had their bigger story turns in earlier chapters.


Cid's presence in the plot wasn't substantial enough to be impactful when he unwillingly betrays you, but that doesn't mean he's a bad character. He was an unfortunate character. He had been an ally to the party numerous times (helping Snow find the party, bringing them together, helping them board the Palamecia) and wanted to help them even more by overthrowing the fal'Cie. He acts as a vessel for the party to continue their journey; when you beat him, he tells you to choose your own fate and disregard your focus of destroying Cocoon. His words are pretty important considering that's exactly what the party sets out to do.

Except they don't, they ultimately do exactly what the bad guys wanted them to do. The fact they choose to do so for different reasons other than their focus is at complete odds for why they were against the focus in the first place and thus the overall theme of the game is lost in the party's own hypocrisy and only rescued by an off screen handwave by the writing team.

Cid is not a bad character, but he's a poorly utilized one, remaining a background character for a few minor scenes before Chapter 10 and thus the impact of his betrayal is lost on the player because he's not been much of a presence in the story as he should have been. He had the potential to be something better and deeper to help the player actually care about Cocoon but I often felt he was just used to add shallow drama as the writer's moved onto the next plot point, and to see him go to such waste was a disappointment.


Cid's entire reasoning for fighting the party is completely different from anyone else's at this point in the game. Because in his mind, he wants to kill you to free you from your focus and save Cocoon. He's not fighting you because Dysley told him to. He turned himself into a Cie'th to fight against his fate, his focus. And his sacrifice isn't moot; he was intended to be revived as the new Primarch. He fought against the fal'Cie by ordering Rygdea to kill him. Cid's story echoes the entire theme of the game: challenging your fate
Except not, Cid being the Primarch serves no real purpose but to simply show the party themselves that they are trapped by their fate regardless. His survival was never important and its obvious in the scenes he's featured in that he is a broken man who realizes he's being used and even in death, he can't fight against the will of the fal'Cie who had convinced the party to return and destroy Orphan for them, so even his death serves no real purpose but to crush the hope of the resistance. For all his talk of fighting fate, his life and death were largely a waste.



This is a common complaint about the game I hear, and it's absolutely asinine. The "corridor simulator" complaint. You know what else is a corridor simulator? Super Mario Bros. That's right, you're on a straight linear path to the end of the game, fighting samey enemies, running through samey environments and levels. But guess what? No one gives a trout. Because Super Mario Bros. is a good game. It's a fun game. And so is Final Fantasy XIII. I love walking through beautiful, unique environments. I love being able to encounter enemies on the map, engage them in battle, and figuring out the most efficient way to win. Let's take another "corridor simulator" example: Final Fantasy X. A game many people consider being the last "good" Final Fantasy. Yet it's even more linear than XIII. There's no huge open world like Pulse in X. Just a linear story with unique environments and enemies along the way. But no one cares about how linear it is, because in the end it's a good game. Just like XIII.

Well first off, FFX was my least favorite FF before XIII took the mantle from it and then beat it to death with it and second you're mistaking Mario Bros and FFXIII as both being apples when they are really both fruit and one is an apple and the other is a tomato. They look the same but the texture, taste, and cooking requirements are very different.

A platformer works in a linear setting because the objective of the game is to move past obstacles through skill and prowess to an inevitable end. Even with that simple premise, Mario is not necessarily a linear experience unless you purposely do so. The stages have various secrets and there are various ways you can complete the level utilizing different paths and tactics. The stages themselves may even have secret pathways that take you to later levels or give you some extra boon. Despite it's linear layout, the stages themselves are filled with things to find and discover. XIII doesn't have that, which is where linear corridor comes into play because there is only ever one way to go, you can't interact with the environment to change how you get to the ending. The combat system is based on an A+B=C principle where it's nearly impossible and largely inadvisable to skip steps to achieve victory so even combat begins to feel very narrow and more of an means to an end than something fluid and thoughtful that requires the player to be creative or engaged. The game removes most of your ability to explore and most locations outside of Pulse have nothing worth finding in the rare times there is a minor optional path.

Now comes the part where I may become sick because I now have to say something nice about FFX. While the stage layout of FFX was also linear in nature (and one of the most criticized elements about the game back in the day I might add) it was at least filled with stuff to do. If you weren't being stopped by various NPCs for a chat or cutscene, you had a mini-game or two to divert your attention, there was actually stuff to find like Al Bhed books, written works that expanded the world for you, or people to chat with that heled sell the world of Spira to the player, and of course just combat in general. XIII doesn't really have any of this, which is why it gets knocked more. Instead you simply have the option to move forward to the next cutscene or the next battle. Your only other option was to open up the menu and read the Dataogs, but that in itself is troublesome, because I sure I speak for many when I say that the point of a JRPG is to "tell you a story" not relegate it all into an in-game Ultimania/encyclopedia. Hell the whole "Fang was Ragnarok" is spoiled in the Datalogs before you ever get to Vanille's scene where she gets her Eidolon making the revelation fall completely flat. I would even argue that the Datalogs do a better job of telling you the story than the actual cutscenes since it allowed the reader to understand what was going through the casts head as opposed to guessing from the uncanny valley cutscenes.

Yes there are some people to talk to but your mostly just overhearing their own conversations and there is so few of these moments its easy to forget that their was anyone outside of the story cast that was relevant. Pulse itself is a huge open place to explore but it comes so late in the game that I and many others pretty much had already given up on the game cause thirty hours of doing the same monotonous routine of going forward, fighting a battle with a scripted battle mechanic, and then watching a cutscene, repeat ad nauseum just to finally get to the "fun" part of the game is not how you make an engaging experience. Especially when you're dealing with a genre that has generally always been more about choice and exploration. The linear design of the game was a bad fit and one I still believe was made out of necessity than choice as XIII had its own troubled production.



People seem to associate "linear" with "bad" yet forget that some of their favorite games were even more linear.
Linear design in gaming is not bad, but I do feel wholeheartedly that XIII's linear design was badly executed and damaged the overall experience for many players.



The chapter is not pointless at all. Like I stated before, it is a transitional chapter. It's meant to bridge the heavy plot-focused, boss-battle oriented chapter 9 and the exploration-based chapter 11. You can't just have heavy action and heavy plot all the time; you need to pace it out and provide a respite from it every now and then. Chapter 10 does a phenomenal job of that because it acts as a very nice interlude between the two chapters. And I feel like you completely misunderstood Cid's story because, again, he still fought against his fate by ordering Rygdea to kill him in order to defy Dysley's wishes. Fang was given more than enough development by the end of the game. Her entire backstory and relationship with Vanille is completely fleshed out, as well as her motivations for being with the party.

Chapter 10 actually helps the flow of the game by giving the player a transition and respite from the intense chapter it preceded. It also set up the nice chapter quite nicely with Cid Raines' story providing the characters motivation and a clear objective.

Except Chapter 11 already begins as a slow burn anyway in terms of plot with the party trapped on Pulse and trying to figure out what to do next. Cid tells them to fight fate, which many of them had already resolved to do before Chapter 9 so it was kind of a pointless reiterating of a theme the game has already been throwing down the party and players throats since Chapter 3, and technically the open ended nature of Pulse was pretty much guaranteed to slow the pacing of the plot considerably (which it does) anyway especially after going so long with little to do but advance the story. So again, I would argue that Chapter 10 was irrelevant, especially since:


Cid's words fall on death's ear and the party is struggling to figure out what to do and how to go on at the beginning of Chapter 11 anyway.
His own attempt to fight fate ends up having him being used as a pawn by Dysley later and his death was meaningless since the destruction of Cocoon and mankind's extinction was the entire point of their plan so dying early does nothing to change this.
Chapter 11 is one of the longer chapters anyway and the side-quests and openness offers a better "transition" from the linear corridor of the previous ten chapters and would have easily served the same purpose as chapter 10.


So again, I would argue that there is nothing going on in Chapter 10 that isn't either invalidated in the next two chapters or could not have been done with Chapter 11 anyway.


Story's bigger revelations? Like how the game did all of the antagonists dirty? How the empire's demise was detailed in the form of optional letters you have to pick up off of desks? It revealed that the game was rushed and incomplete, sure. I don't know how you could possibly argue that XV was better than XIII in any way, especially the story. All of XIII's antagonists got proper closure and had complete story arcs. You have to learn about XV's antagonists through a smurfing collectible.

You mean like everything above I've pointed out on how Cid's purpose in the plot was mostly wasted and made moot by later revelations? Jihl being propped up for several chapters as a great foil for Sahz only to be literally killed off before the big battle with her for the painfully obvious reveal of Dysley? Roosch being an idiot who fights for the badguys until the bitter end never knowing he's just an expendable pawn? Dysley revealing that he could have wiped out Cocoon without the party involvement? Or how about the party ending the game by doing the one thing they spent most of the game saying they weren't going to do and only get saved because of a literal Deus ex Machina that is poorly explained without the Ultimania and the sequels? Seriously, XIII's plot is a mess filled with plot holes and a central theme that completely loses it's point thanks to hand waves, contrived plot elements, and general hypocrisy in the actions and motives of the cast.

XV wasn't perfect but we all knew the empire was just a red herring anyway, and Ardyn is at least interesting and memorable to ease the sting of the disappointment of Nifelheim, but at least he was more memorable and interesting than all of XIII's B-Movie antagonists who could never really steal the show. The overall plot of XV is basic as hell but at least filled with wonderful moments of the main cast showing the theme of brotherhood, and many of the side characters are personable and memorable. The best part is, no angst. Honestly if you want to play a linear RPG whose central theme is about a group of characters fighting the inevitable fate that is death, then play Persona 3. The game XIII stole most of it's ideas from, but had the good fortune of remembering it also needs to be a fun game.