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Formalhaut
01-02-2017, 10:21 PM
And honestly... me and Mr. Carny are feeling sorta 'meh' towards that first episode. I'm sure Mr. Carny will come in and explain in detail why we both give it a fairly average score, but my overall sentiment is that it's all becoming fairly overblown, bombastic, without an actual case to thread it through.

The case - such as it was - was short, and didn't really go anywhere, safe to introduce the whole 'ooh, that bust is missing'. And the resolution is fairly staid and unsatisfactory. But honestly, the worst bit was that completely out of character subplot involving Watson and some woman on a bus. I'm sure it'll crop up again, because of course it will, but what we got was pretty confusing.

There's also some quibbles about the female characters that I won't go into just yet. But basically - one is reduced to 'babysitter' and another is, well, spoilers.

Anyway, I won't rant any longer. Did anyone else watch it? I'm sure there's people who loved this episode, and I'd be happy to be enlightened. Because honestly, it is sitting pretty ill with me at the moment.

Mr. Carnelian
01-02-2017, 11:08 PM
1) The secretary lady's motivations were very poorly explained, and didn't really make any sense. The money motivation hardly seems enough: if there's only enough money in selling government secrets to buy a small cottage in Cornwall, then how could it possibly be worth the risk? And if the motivation was actually jealousy, as Sherlock suggests: why exactly is she meant to be jealous? She was clearly in a position of great trust and importance, as evidenced by the fact that she was present in the super-secret meeting in the beginning of the position. Hardly a dead-end career which would cause one to become jealous enough to risk everything and betray one's country.

2) There was no good puzzle or mystery in the episode. The only proper case, the whole car-death thing, was absurdly simple.

3) Speaking of the car-death thing, the fact that it turned out to be a complete coincidence, completely unrelated to the bust shenanigans, was completely ridiculous. The writer clearly couldn't come up with a coherent way to introduce Sherlock to the bust "mystery" (which, again, was ABSURDLY easy to solve), so just threw in a stupidly unlikely death which just randomly happened to occur at one of the places where one of the busts happened to be.

4) Mary's character was reduced completely to "former super-spy". She was allowed none of the moments of cleverness or insight which made her interesting in the previous series.

5) John's semi-affair came completely out of the blue. Something so completely out of established character requires at least SOME explanation.


The banter between Sherlock and Mycroft was pretty good. One of the only moments where the spark and wit which made the show interesting in the first place shone through.

Freya
01-03-2017, 04:02 PM
I watched it last night. I saw a lot of hate for it. And i'm not sure why



I feel they set it all up at the very beginning telling us you can't trust what you see. The drunk driver hitting the car and getting him to the house was too convenient. AJ being held for 6 years and suddenly being let loose was too convenient. I feel it's a set up. Mary saying she worked for whoever paid her the most, the lady selling info, well who was in the information dealing eh? I think there's more moriarty involvement than we realized. AND THIS

https://68.media.tumblr.com/f959065d318295c9e49f4f427e6280a1/tumblr_oj5vgekd4r1sodtrho2_500.gif
https://68.media.tumblr.com/b17e1b165044ef5a69dccfc23e1bdd14/tumblr_oj5vgekd4r1sodtrho1_500.gif

The Other Woman thing. I am not sure what to think, I think maybe John did emotionally cheat. And that's why he's so mad at sherlock too. They made it a point to have mary mention multiple times how he's a "good man" and he wasn't being one. So when she gets shot, he shouts to him that he "broke his vow" to sherlock and he's blaming him for it. When really he was the one who did so. He''s placing his anger at sherlock though cause it's easier. It's not the logical thing to do but he's not being logical.



What was the "13th" Thing on Mycroft's fridge?

Who is the other woman, is she really just a lady with the hots for Watson or is there something else going on there? I AM SUSPICIOUS

Del Murder
01-05-2017, 08:50 PM
It was a weird episode.

I'm not so beefed that they killed Mary since I wasn't a big fan and she dies pretty quickly in the stories anyway. But to have John cheat on her (and yes what he did is cheating) before she dies seems out of character for him. John was really odd in this episode and almost a side character.

I did really like when Sherlock made up all that conspiracy stuff about the guys wife being a spy for Moriarty to nuke the whole world. :D

Psychotic
01-05-2017, 09:47 PM
Wasn't too impressed tbh. I have never been remotely interested in the SUPER SECRET NINJA AGENT angle they took with Mary. I prefer criminal mysteries to that genre and as a character she was far more believable and enjoyable before that revelation. Like ffs can't she just be a clever character without a convoluted and cliched backstory?

Next episode seems to have the excellent Toby Jones playing a real evil dude though so here's hoping for a return to form.

Slothy
01-05-2017, 10:13 PM
Not sure where anyone gets the idea that Watson cheating comes out of nowhere when they heavily imply, and even outright show on one occasion, that he's become the third wheel to his wife and his best friend as they run around being clever together. Meanwhile he's left to either take care of their baby alone or be pushed out of the cases by the two of them. I'm really not sure what to tell anyone who doesn't understand why someone in that position might be tempted by a woman that actually takes an interest in him. Not justifying him cheating of course, but they give him pretty clear and understandable reasons. Never mind that he was probably still having a bit of trouble adjusting to the whole my wife was a spy and shot my best friend thing despite their trying to move past it.

Honest question: do some of you surf the internet or play games on your phones/tablets while you're watching TV because I thought this was all pretty clear in the episode despite them not just coming out and just telling you exactly what Watson is thinking? Not trying to sound rude there, it's just everyone elses reaction to it leaves me feeling like we were watching two completely different shows and I don't feel like they were being that subtle with it.

Del Murder
01-05-2017, 10:41 PM
I'm not saying they didn't set it up in the episode, but it is inconsistent with the character they have created through this whole series and also the historical picture of the Watson character being a person of integrity and essentially Holmes's conscience.

As for this episode, the whole thing was poorly paced including this segment which felt more like a distraction than anything. I could see why they included it because otherwise the character would have nothing to do and nowhere to go in this very Holmes and Mary-centric episode, but it distracted from the show's main themes in this episode and I fear it will continue to do so. Hopefully this is just a plot device to create some temporary tension between Watson and Holmes which is the fundamental relationship of the series that got pushed aside in this episode.

Formalhaut
01-05-2017, 11:04 PM
I'm not saying they didn't set it up in the episode, but it is inconsistent with the character they have created through this whole series and also the historical picture of the Watson character being a person of integrity and essentially Holmes's conscience.

As for this episode, the whole thing was poorly paced including this segment which felt more like a distraction than anything. I could see why they included it because otherwise the character would have nothing to do and nowhere to go in this very Holmes and Mary-centric episode, but it distracted from the show's main themes in this episode and I fear it will continue to do so. Hopefully this is just a plot device to create some temporary tension between Watson and Holmes which is the fundamental relationship of the series that got pushed aside in this episode.

Oh, I knew they were setting it up. It couldn't have been more obvious. The first scene that lady on the bus appeared, I knew they would end up crafting a cheating subplot out of it. My issue isn't that it wasn't set-up: it was almost too obvious what was going on. It's just it seemed inconsistent. I mean sure, there was ill feeling about being a third wheel. But enough to cheat with some girl on a bus? That seems strange. They've built up Watson to be such a morally upright character, Sherlock's conscience no less, that it sems weak for him to falter simply because his wife and best friend were bonding too much.

If this was something they were building up since Series Three, well who the hell can remember that far back? That was two years ago. If they perhaps gave it more attention, made it clear why he was pursuing this woman, then it might have sat better with me. But it's a big sticking point in an entire episode of sticking points.

Del Murder
01-05-2017, 11:15 PM
Yes, the large gap between seasons also makes character story arcs more difficult, especially if you want to fundamentally change a character's direction. If there was setup for Watson's behavior in Season 3, I sure as hell can't remember it.

Freya
01-05-2017, 11:19 PM
I don't think it's just a one off thing or she's a one off thing. I think it's a set up for something. What that is, I dunno, but they hardly introduce characters like that without more to it.

Formalhaut
01-05-2017, 11:33 PM
I don't think it's just a one off thing or she's a one off thing. I think it's a set up for something. What that is, I dunno, but they hardly introduce characters like that without more to it.

Oh, I'm almost positive she'll appear again, and I thought she was suspicious from the beginning.

Del Murder
01-05-2017, 11:45 PM
I jokingly told my wife she's Moriarty's sister.

Formalhaut
01-05-2017, 11:47 PM
I jokingly told my wife she's Moriarty's sister.

Now you've gone and done it. Guess we'll watch this space. :p

Psychotic
01-08-2017, 11:42 PM
Well now that was an episode!

Formalhaut
01-08-2017, 11:43 PM
Sooooooo much better than the first. Honestly, the quality was miles apart.

Mr. Carnelian
01-08-2017, 11:51 PM
Sooooooo much better than the first. Honestly, the quality was miles apart.

Agreed.

Fox
01-09-2017, 07:51 AM
That one was gooood. I mean there was a split second where I thought I was looking at Moriarty in a wig but if anything that enhanced the experience.

Psychotic
01-09-2017, 12:12 PM
That one was gooood. I mean there was a split second where I thought I was looking at Moriarty in a wig but if anything that enhanced the experience.I had that exact same moment.

Mr. Carnelian
01-09-2017, 07:40 PM
Of course, we mustn't forget the real star of the second episode...



71574
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Freya
01-11-2017, 04:11 AM
I don't think it's just a one off thing or she's a one off thing. I think it's a set up for something. What that is, I dunno, but they hardly introduce characters like that without more to it.

Oh, I'm almost positive she'll appear again, and I thought she was suspicious from the beginning.
BAM! :cool:

Psychotic
01-15-2017, 11:31 PM
Goodness me.

Mr. Carnelian
01-15-2017, 11:50 PM
Sappy as hell (all Euros needed was The Power of Love TM to tone down her case of the murderous crazies), and somewhat predictable (I called that she had taken control of the prison before they even got there), but all in all an exceedingly entertaining episode.

Psychotic
01-16-2017, 11:26 PM
I hope they do end the series there. The Jimmy Saville episode was fun but tbh the last two seasons have paled in comparison to the first two. The secret agent trout wasn't very good and neither was the last episode. Hannibal lecter meets Saw. EAST WIND, BOOOO, ARE YOU SCARED? oh right and yeah apparently she can mind control people. how? did she cast the imperius curse, or...? oh look here's moriarty he was good right haha look he's making train noises. And then as Mr. Carnelian says, oh boy, here's that old Moffat standby The Power of Love lmao that plane we actually showed you was all a metaphysical representation of her psyche man we gotcha good there right. Just... disappointing. It can do so much better.

One of my favourite episodes is the very first one where he's piecing together the clues to track figure out the identity of the cabbie. A standard case with an element of intrigue, helping/hindering the police and the villain is just some regular dude who's a lonely old man. No need to dial it up to 11 every time, just keep it nice and simple.

Fox
01-16-2017, 11:41 PM
Ah, the days when he was Sherlock Holmes not Sherlock Bond

Formalhaut
01-17-2017, 01:06 AM
I know a lot of people were iffy on the 'Hound of the Baskervilles' episode (2-2), but I liked that it was just a nice, neat, standalone episode.

Season Three onwards it became too... up itself. Honestly, it's because of Mary. I like her as a character, but as soon as she became 'super-spy', it went bizarre.

Is it a coincidence though that some of my favourite episodes in each season has been the middle one? I liked the wedding episode, mainly because it actually had a case attached that impacted the 'main' plot arc. The middle episode for this season had a case attached. I feel like Episode One of the later series wanted to open with a bang, and it lost subtlety. Then the final episode of each season became too... James Bond like.

Of course, Gatiss would disagree entirely. He wrote a verse riposte which... didn't really work for me. Yeah, sure, Sherlock has moments of action and danger, but when that outweighs the intrigue, procedural case work that is at the core of Sherlock, then where is the sense of identity? That scene with the flat blowing up was just pure action.

Freya
01-18-2017, 04:42 AM
That felt very series ending-y.


I got super excited for a moment that Moriarty was back. I was even like "OMG I DON'T EVEN CARE HOW" and then it was 5 yrs ago :(

Del Murder
01-18-2017, 07:11 PM
The finale was intriguing and it kept my eyes glued to the screen, but I agree it has been a large departure from what made this show so great. Ever since the Moriarty episodes it seems like they've been trying to top it. May be good to just end it here.

Miriel
01-18-2017, 11:12 PM
That went so far beyond what any reasonable person would deem within the realm of "suspension of disbelief" that I have to believe that those huge insane plot holes were intentional. Probably because they do intend to end things here.

I thought the whole thing was fucking ridiculous. But, as always, the acting was so good. Everyone had really wonderful moments, especially Euros (who is a ridiculous silly character) who was played by a very intriguing actress, Molly (the show is so unfair to her), and Mycroft.

It was pure nonsense but they sure tried to sell it. So I'll give them that.