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Squall Leonhart Loire
02-06-2017, 12:58 AM
"Find out why fans and critics are calling FINAL FANTASY XV one of the most memorable games of 2016. With over 5 million copies sold on opening day, the latest installment in this epic franchise moves the needle with its gorgeous graphics, immersive new battle system, and captivating story."

:(

FinalxxSin
02-06-2017, 03:02 AM
It's not really a surprise to me. Yes, FFXV does have its share of flaws, but it's still an ambitious project none the less that still obtained success beyond financial status. For me, it was a nice change of pace from seeing a lot of the other games that didn't really try and push the envelope, but preferred to do things safe.

Squall Leonhart Loire
02-06-2017, 04:03 AM
What's pushing the envelope about FFXV?

FinalxxSin
02-06-2017, 04:53 AM
What's pushing the envelope about FFXV?
Tech side there is Luminous Engine which has been able to produce some of the best lighting effects thus far this gen. There's various tech videos out there showing how the Chocobros stay in sync typically with Noctis while still moving freely enough to not just be robots. Here's an example of a tech vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIsGdJuHWDI

- Pitioss Dungeon tells a story through the means of platforming and puzzles, something that isn't common in the gaming market. Atm though, there is no solid detailed info on what that said story is, but there are some good theories out there with what it is.

- FFXV as a game has a good amount of western influence, while still maintaining some Japanese aspects. A lot of RPGs in general are very extreme one way or the other.

- Brotherhood has not been pushed a lot in games, so it's refreshing to see it as a focus on a much larger scale vs. many other titles that easily give off a "one man army vibe".

- Most projects don't get a short anime and CGI film. FFXV pushes to tell some things through subtle things instead of the standard "in your face, here I am". It's part of the reason a decent chunk of the banter in the game can be missed completely for example.

- FFXV always pushes for a dynamic experience beyond the more standard time of day and weather systems. Prompto taking pictures, in many cases, becomes reflective of moments that would be extremely hard to replicate on film again by the same person or anybody else. I don't expect everybody to agree with such notions.

Scruffington
02-06-2017, 05:14 AM
Tech side there is Luminous Engine which has been able to produce some of the best lighting effects thus far this gen. There's various tech videos out there showing how the Chocobros stay in sync typically with Noctis while still moving freely enough to not just be robots. Here's an example of a tech vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIsGdJuHWDI

Technical advancement isn't really "pushing the envelope" because it's expected of each successive game in a series, unless it's a substantial increase compared to the rest of either its respective genre or the industry as a whole. A game that pushes the envelope in this area is something like Uncharted 4 (some of the best facial animations in gaming history). With respect to open world games, this game isn't even technically as good as The Witcher 3 which was released over 18 months before XV came out.


- Pitioss Dungeon tells a story through the means of platforming and puzzles, something that isn't common in the gaming market. Atm though, there is no solid detailed info on what that said story is, but there are some good theories out there with what it is.

I'm not sure how much of a positive this is, considering you seem to suggest that the story told in the dungeon is unclear.

Aside from that, the Pitioss Dungeon is entirely optional and non-essential to the story. Few players will ever even experience this. I'm not sure how it tells a story through platforming and puzzles, because I've never played it. So I can't exactly say what it does.


FFXV as a game has a good amount of western influence, while still maintaining some Japanese aspects. A lot of RPGs in general are very extreme one way or the other.

This isn't "pushing the envelope." This is Square Enix attempting to cater to modern gaming trends by making their game open world similar to other successful titles like The Witcher 3. I personally view this as a very, very negative aspect of FFXV. It makes the game feel as though it has no identity.


Brotherhood has not been pushed a lot in games, so it's refreshing to see it as a focus on a much larger scale vs. many other titles that easily give off a "one man army vibe".

External media about the game =/= the game itself. Most games don't have films or anime because, unlike FFXV, they have a complete story. These materials usually come AFTER a game is released because the story the game told was worth telling through another medium (or elaborated upon). You should not need to watch an anime series and a film to understand the game's characters or story.


FFXV always pushes for a dynamic experience beyond the more standard time of day and weather systems. Prompto taking pictures, in many cases, becomes reflective of moments that would be extremely hard to replicate on film again by the same person or anybody else. I don't expect everybody to agree with such notions.

I'm not sure what you define as "dynamic." In the case of Prompto taking pictures, I agree with you there. That's actually one of the game's greatest strengths. However, it is such a small part that it doesn't compensate for all the things XV gets wrong.

I really don't intend for this to be a circlejerk over how disappointing XV was. I do have genuine complaints that I think I'll articulate at some point.

Elly
02-06-2017, 01:10 PM
Scruffy, by Brotherhood i don't think Final Sin was talking about the anime... i think they were talking about the feeling of the 4 boys as a unit so close they may as well be brothers, kinda like Police Partners or Military Brothers in Arms, but a bit deeper than that... the way they work as a team, interact, fight together, play together, & bust each others chops frequently...

FinalxxSin
02-06-2017, 01:38 PM
.....
I am not going to engage with you anymore beyond this post. Any future responses in regards to what I have typed I will ignore and skip.

Fynn
02-06-2017, 01:50 PM
Where is that quote from, Squall?

Scruffington
02-06-2017, 04:51 PM
Scruffy, by Brotherhood i don't think Final Sin was talking about the anime... i think they were talking about the feeling of the 4 boys as a unit so close they may as well be brothers, kinda like Police Partners or Military Brothers in Arms, but a bit deeper than that... the way they work as a team, interact, fight together, play together, & bust each others chops frequently...

Oh sorry, I misunderstood. For what it's worth I still don't really agree with that.

Karifean
02-06-2017, 05:33 PM
External media about the game =/= the game itself. Most games don't have films or anime because, unlike FFXV, they have a complete story. These materials usually come AFTER a game is released because the story the game told was worth telling through another medium (or elaborated upon). You should not need to watch an anime series and a film to understand the game's characters or story.

This part I vehemently disagree with. If a content creator thinks that a multimedia experience spanning more than just a game is the best way to write the story they envision they have every right to do it that way. The only thing that could get in your way is a faulty preconception that the "game must be complete in and of itself" which is completely arbitrary in the first place.

And the way they did it actually worked out pretty well if you ask me. The anime series already got me to care about the main characters while leaving the game free to drop me straight into the action. Meanwhile the movie tells a part of the overall story the main game isn't actually about, and sets the stakes pretty well in advance if you watch it before playing the game.

Scruffington
02-06-2017, 06:13 PM
This part I vehemently disagree with. If a content creator thinks that a multimedia experience spanning more than just a game is the best way to write the story they envision they have every right to do it that way. The only thing that could get in your way is a faulty preconception that the "game must be complete in and of itself" which is completely arbitrary in the first place.

And the way they did it actually worked out pretty well if you ask me. The anime series already got me to care about the main characters while leaving the game free to drop me straight into the action. Meanwhile the movie tells a part of the overall story the main game isn't actually about, and sets the stakes pretty well in advance if you watch it before playing the game.

I don't understand how you could possibly disagree. A game's story should be complete from beginning to end. You should be able to play a game, understand it from start to finish, without requiring any other material. Other games like Halo 4 suffered from this because they introduced certain elements and characters like the Didact assuming you already knew who they were. Yet he was never introduced in any of the Halo games prior to 4. You had to read some of the Halo books to understand who he was and why he was there. Because I hadn't done so, his presence was jarring and confusing.

Final Fantasy XV suffers from this in multiple areas. The most damning evidence of this is that the game includes a cutscene from Kingsglaive showing Regis' death, yet it has no context or backstory in the game. It seems utterly out of place and if you hadn't watched the film, you would have no idea what happened.

No idea how expecting a game's story to be coherent and complete is "arbitrary."

Fynn
02-06-2017, 06:22 PM
Because it's possible for some people to see a choice to tell parts of a story through different media as a stylistic, or even artistic one, rather than a cash grab. Karifean's point is totally valid, imo

Scruffington
02-06-2017, 06:35 PM
Because it's possible for some people to see a choice to tell parts of a story through different media as a stylistic, or even artistic one, rather than a cash grab. Karifean's point is totally valid, imo

That's fine, but the end result is that the core product (the game) is incomplete when experienced in isolation of the others. If you cannot experience a complete story by playing the game, then the game's story is not finished. If you want to support unfinished stories, that's on you.

Fynn
02-06-2017, 06:41 PM
You can argue it being unfinished based on the story that is contained within the entirety of the FFXV universe, i.e. the stuff they want to address with the DLC and free updates. Supporting the FFXV Universe is not supporting an incomplete story. It's a story that you can expand on yourself, and the best option from the point of view of the creator - but if someone doesn't care about the backstory of the characters or the goings-on in Insomnia, they can skip that and just jump right into the action.

It's a weird approach, but one that isn't necessarily bad in its own right. The fact that there was a vision involving splitting this over media doesn't make it incomplete.

Sephiroth
02-06-2017, 06:47 PM
I don't understand how you could possibly disagree. A game's story should be complete from beginning to end.


I suppose you also hate it whenever a person says "oh, by the way: (insert info that was not in previous statement)" and that you never corrected yourself or expanded on your own explanations for things.

Scruffington
02-06-2017, 07:07 PM
You can argue it being unfinished based on the story that is contained within the entirety of the FFXV universe, i.e. the stuff they want to address with the DLC and free updates. Supporting the FFXV Universe is not supporting an incomplete story. It's a story that you can expand on yourself, and the best option from the point of view of the creator - but if someone doesn't care about the backstory of the characters or the goings-on in Insomnia, they can skip that and just jump right into the action.

It's a weird approach, but one that isn't necessarily bad in its own right. The fact that there was a vision involving splitting this over media doesn't make it incomplete.

I can't believe I have to argue in favor of the consumer for this one.

XV's other media (anime and film) are not just supplementary works. They're not just stories that you can watch if you want to "expand" upon the story of the game. They are actually necessary to understand the game's story. Without Kingsglaive, the opening of XV is confusing and out of place. Without Kingsglaive, the scene they include about Regis's death is jarring. Without Kingsglaive, you have no idea what happened to Luna or why she is separated from Noctis, or why she has the ring. You need to watch a film to understand all of these major plot points, which are essential to the game's story.

Without Brotherhood, you have no idea how Noctis and the gang met. Without Brotherhood, you have no idea how Iris and Noctis met or what their connection stems from. Without Brotherhood, you don't have any idea how the gang formed their individual bonds with Noctis prior to the events of the game's story.

I will always argue against a consumer having to view other medias in order to fully understand a game's story. I criticized Halo 4 for doing this, and I will criticize XV for doing it too. Just because FF is one of my favorite series doesn't mean the game gets a free pass. You should always, ALWAYS be able to understand a game's story completely from start to finish simply by playing the game.


I suppose you also hate it whenever a person says "oh, by the way: (insert info that was not in previous statement)" and that you never corrected yourself or expanded on your own explanations for things.

I think you misunderstood my post. I was responding to the post as a whole, which disagreed with my statement: You should not need to watch an anime series and a film to understand the game's characters or story.

Scruffington
02-06-2017, 07:21 PM
Let me elaborate a bit more.

I don't have any issue with games having other forms of media like anime to enjoy. For example, Persona 4 has an anime adaptation. I personally haven't watched it, but from what I can tell it is a retelling of the game's story in anime form. This is completely fine to me because not only was the game's story complete, but all of the characters had great stories and development. Even if the anime does elaborate upon certain game events, that would be completely fine because the story told in game was already finished and enjoyable without the anime.

What I have an issue with is a game having a confusing story or seemingly absent character development or background information that can ONLY be found in other medias. XV is guilty of this because of the reasons I listed in the post above. If XV had a complete story, and the film and anime simply retold or gave a bit more information on it, that would be fine. But this isn't the case at all.

I don't like this practice at all. I think it's anti-consumer because someone shouldn't have to pay extra to see a film. It's also anti-consumer because a person should be able to purchase a game with the expectation that they are getting a complete story that makes sense. I definitely don't think Square Enix chose to do this because they wanted to make a cash grab with the film, but I also don't think this method is in the best interests of the consumer.

Sephiroth
02-06-2017, 07:27 PM
I think you misunderstood my post. I was responding to the post as a whole, which disagreed with my statement: You should not need to watch an anime series and a film to understand the game's characters or story.


I did understand your post. That is why I worded mine that way. You do not want something additional to be an explanation, you want it all included. Therefore -> you must also hate it whenever someone brings in something that was not part of something said before (purposely held back or not is of no relevance here). So basically you must hate stuff like Ultimania Omegas which explain more about the world of Final Fantasy, as well as interviews that say something that was not in the game as well as must you hate sequels and prequels as well because they are also nothing but additional info for the world's stories. Both are a form of adding something, some of them already did exist during development just were not in there, some were created afterwards. So both versions are covered.

I could say more about Final Fantasy XV in particular but I can smell fan posts coming then - and I do not mean yours.

Scruffington
02-06-2017, 07:58 PM
I did understand your post. That is why I worded mine that way. You do not want something additional to be an explanation, you want it all included. Therefore -> you must also hate it whenever someone brings in something that was not part of something said before (purposely held back or not is of no relevance here). So basically you must hate stuff like Ultimania Omegas which explain more about the world of Final Fantasy, as well as interviews that say something that was not in the game as well as must you hate sequels and prequels as well because they are also nothing but additional info for the world's stories. Both are a form of adding something, some of them already did exist during development just were not in there, some were created afterwards. So both versions are covered.

I could say more about Final Fantasy XV in particular but I can smell fan posts coming then - and I do not mean yours.

I see what you're saying.

Except I think you're wrong about almost all of that. I don't really read Ultimanias or things like that, so that's true. I actually love reading interviews like the recent one about Zelda: Breath of the Wild, where the developers were discussing how they wanted to give players multiple ways to solve puzzles. I find it fascinating when developers share cool extra tidbits about their games.

Not only is the sequel/prequel comment irrelevant here, but it doesn't even make any sense. Sequels generally tell another story in the world that the first game established. Since XV has no sequels or prequel games, it has to establish its own world.

Squall Leonhart Loire
02-06-2017, 09:48 PM
Where is that quote from, Squall? From the official FFXV website.

Sephiroth
02-07-2017, 09:41 AM
Except I think you're wrong about almost all of that.

It is os zero relevance if you think I am wrong. A legal and intellectual owner of a product has the right to do whatever they want - that is a fact which is so essential it is a wonder how so many people who have no say in anything actually think they can something against it - with their product so you thinking I am wrong about the topic will not lead you anywhere.



Not only is the sequel/prequel comment irrelevant here, but it doesn't even make any sense. Sequels generally tell another story in the world that the first game established. Since XV has no sequels or prequel games, it has to establish its own world.

Well, obviously you did not understand my well explained comment at all. I gave you two different examples of adding something to a world. One was by adding info to a world for a story part with the addition not being a sequel/prequel and the other one was adding something to the world with the addition being a prequel/sequel. And whether you like it or not, both are additions to one and the same world and most of the time even either continue a story that was previously established (which happens more often than you claim) or if not then they at least tell a story that happens in the same continuity before or after that story happened, automatically making it a part of the stuff "that you could know about the continuity but did not know because it was not in game #1". Also you focused way too much on the prequel/sequel part instead of seeing that this was nothing but another factor of enhancing my point about bringing in additons. The "addition to one game that in your opinion should have been in the game in the first place" is covered nonetheless. No creator has the obligation to put his full thought in one and the same product. They can always change their mind, they can always correct themselves, and, and, and. Now if we forget about the sequels and prequels for a moment and just look at a single game we still have to keep several things in mind. What do you think how many story and lore details there are about all Final Fantasys which have Ultimanias - not just XV - that were not in the original game? A lot. Why do you think, a mere fan who owns nothing, can decide about how and in which form they treat their own property? Because you spend 60 Dollars for a copy of the game? A game that they fully own, invented and would not even exist without them? Tell me: Wouldn't you really pissed if you would own something and you would expand on it and another person would say "hold it!!!!!!!!!! you didn't say that before, therefore I declare this invalid!!!!" Of course you would be. You would tell that person it is your decision alone. Maybe you would even say something like "yeah, sorry, forgot/should have sad that before/didn't think about that and came to my mind just now" depending on the context but I'll be damned if you would not make use of your god-given right or if we talk about a legal property, the right through law, to decide about something that is yours. That is why I at first took that very very simply example of you "surely never correcting yourself or expanding on explanations". Because that is something about a piece of information that does not even need to be about fictional products. It could be a normal conversation about something and you did just not provide the communication partner with all info that person could need to fully understand you. And you really want to tell me you never want to lengthe yur explanation "because it was not in your original explanation"?

As you can see, I have covered many important contextes. Yes, the prequel/sequel thing is a different thing, that is very well true. However, I have also explained it twice by now how it is related to that topic as well as did I already explain how your opinion about creators being obligated to serve you everything with silver plate and spoon is disrespectful. You would never want to be treated like that. And believe me, none of those internet conversations is a first for me.

You can argue about how you think "it can be inconvenient" as there to an extent I can agree with you - also always depending on the situation - but really saying a person has to provide everything in one and the same source and acting as if that is really is a fully justified and under no circumstances debatable fact "just because a fan who owns nothing says so" is really going too far. What would the Dragon Ball community say about that - a franchise that consists of a manga, a multiple anime-series, guide books, interviews with Toriyama-san, et cetera - does that seem familiar? I think yes, it does.

By the way - you are wrong telling Fynn that Kingsglaive and Brotherhood are essential for understanding the story. It is a nice addition as we then see what happened but nothing of any actual relevance happened. We know the crystal is gone, the King is gone, et cetera. Even that Luna gets the ring is a thing that can be glossed over. There is really only one aspect about Kingsglaive where I can give you that it should be seen and that is why Ravus has such a grudge as Ravus is a character whose grudge and then his change of heart is something that gets screentime very often - and it seems we even get a lot of that in the future. As a matter of fact those people who say "uh Kingsglaive should have been in the game" have a very weak argument for me. I know Kingsglaive and that alone is really nothing where I would say "now that would have cleared up things in the story for me" - I know them already anyway and it is not enough for me. The "missing story content" that was cut to avoid backlash and that we now seem to get in a rewritten form is what should be way more focussed on. And that was even in the game was just taken out because of reason xyz and in a few months we get all of that within the game so this is even a point that directly addresses your complaint.