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View Full Version : FFVII remake battles 'entirely action-based'



charliepanayi
03-07-2017, 01:59 PM
http://www.novacrystallis.com/2017/03/final-fantasy-vii-remake-battles-entirely-action-based-covering-optional/

Fox
03-07-2017, 02:15 PM
Fair enough.

The ATB in VII was pretty rubbish, so little of value has been lost. I expect it to function very similarly to Kingdom Hearts (everything accessible via menus but tie common actions to shotcuts). The only real question is: can you control all party members? That's gonna be the dealbreaker for a lot of people. XIII and XV both got stick for that.

Psychotic
03-07-2017, 02:15 PM
I don't think that's the right decision given what they're remaking, but I still think it's possible to make a fun action based system.

Formalhaut
03-07-2017, 02:34 PM
I wouldn't mind a FFXII system where your companions run on A.I unless you 'ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL' of them.

fat_moogle
03-07-2017, 04:12 PM
Crisis Core, Final Fantasy Type-0 and Final Fantasy XV have all proven that an action based battle system can work for Final Fantasy. I have no problem with the Final Fantasy VII Remake going down this route providing that we can have full control of our party, including being able to change the active leader. I wanna bash some Shin-Ra scum over the head with my Rod.

Formalhaut
03-07-2017, 05:40 PM
I wanna bash some Shin-Ra scum over the head with my Rod.

Pretty sure that's a different game.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-07-2017, 10:23 PM
Real time games take a lot more time and money to develop than turn based games. You need a far more robust physics engine, far more complicated calculations, with a lot more glitches and bugs to test for. Turn based game play is basically just numbers exchanging in the background, everything you see on screen is a combination of pre rendered animations and effects. It's a lot easier to do, and if the visuals become a problem anyways, you can easily skimp on them without in any way impacting the actual game play.

Scruffington
03-07-2017, 11:15 PM
Pretty disappointed. My hype for this game has definitely plummeted.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 07:42 AM
This was pretty evident from the start, though

maybee
03-08-2017, 07:57 AM
Uuuuugh, KH battle systems and Crisis Core battle systems are terrible. Crisis Core was terribly repetitive, and KH has terrible CPU control over Donald and Goofy- which FFXV suffered badly from too.


I wouldn't mind a FFXII system where your companions run on A.I unless you 'ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL' of them.

Sadly, it doesn't look like FF VII : R is going down this path.

Depression Moon
03-08-2017, 08:05 AM
But we already knew this when they showed us gameplay.

maybee
03-08-2017, 08:08 AM
But we already knew this when they showed us gameplay.

Nomura is a cockteaser and put "ATB " underneath Cloud's battle bar, which gave people hope that the game would be a little turn-base-y.

Scruffington
03-08-2017, 08:10 AM
This was pretty evident from the start, though

No, the only thing that was evident is that the battle system would be changed and more action-oriented. It's only with this that the game has been confirmed to be completely action based.

Well, thanks for ditching one of the things that made this game special SE. Looks like they intend on making all of their games have identical combat to each other.

Guess it's too much to ask them to give FF7R the REmake treatment.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 08:12 AM
And of course everybody learned how reliable early GUI screenshots are

Seriously, I really don't get why people get so worked up over games and their expectations toward them? I mean, I'm not interested in FFVII R simply because I've kind of gotten over VII, but if they announced, say, a Kingdom Hearts game that would be a total departure in gameplay from the other games, I wouldn't be like "screw you, SE, I wanted this to be X and you choose to stomp right over my childhood" and more like "well, okay, that's different, let's see how this plays out."

Fynn
03-08-2017, 08:14 AM
I mean, you could argue that they made everything the same back in FFVII's day when they just slapped ATB onto everything :p


TBH, though, I'm with Fox - VII's implementation of the ATB was one of the worst in the series so here's hoping they can make stuff more interesting

maybee
03-08-2017, 08:16 AM
And of course everybody learned how reliable early GUI screenshots are

Seriously, I really don't get why people get so worked up over games and their expectations toward them? I mean, I'm not interested in FFVII R simply because I've kind of gotten over VII, but if they announced, say, a Kingdom Hearts game that would be a total departure in gameplay from the other games, I wouldn't be like "screw you, SE, I wanted this to be X and you choose to stomp right over my childhood" and more like "well, okay, that's different, let's see how this plays out."

Some people just hate action rpgs that's all. FF was originally a turn based series, imagine if say Dark Souls went turn-based or Zelda went turn-based. People who love those systems would be upset with the change.

" SE is all about evolving and developing "

Yes, within a turn-based system.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 08:20 AM
Nah, they've always experimented. Take the Mana series, for example, or Parasite Eve.

Their more action-based titles have gotten them more money recently, so it's really no wonder that they're going in that direction


I'm honestly much more concerned with whether they intend to fix the God-awful part of the story that's disc 2

maybee
03-08-2017, 08:33 AM
Nah, they've always experimented. Take the Mana series, for example, or Parasite Eve.

Their more action-based titles have gotten them more money recently, so it's really no wonder that they're going in that direction


Those are different games though, and not Final Fantasy.

Yeah, because Square has been unfair towards turn-based- not everybody can afford a 3DS to buy the Bravely Games, and WOFF had a certain "kiddy" artstyle towards it, which put off alot people.

" But Turn Based is dying out " !

Persona 5 and Pokemon games say hi.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 08:38 AM
You still say SE, not FF :p

Never said it is. I personally prefer turn-based games, but I can see why they'd go for an action format - they want VII to have as big an impact on the entire gaming industry as it did back in the day, so they want to make it as palatable to mainstream audiences as possible (I still think it's ultimately not possible to replicate that, but they're trying really hard).

I'm really fine with this remake because the original VII still exists anyway, I get my fill of turn-based games through other outlets, and I really think it's better if a remake changes things up so as to offer a new experience. Still not excited for this thing, though, but for reasons much different than the typical "they changed it now it sucks"

maybee
03-08-2017, 08:58 AM
Never said it is. I personally prefer turn-based games, but I can see why they'd go for an action format - they want VII to have as big an impact on the entire gaming industry as it did back in the day, so they want to make it as palatable to mainstream audiences as possible (I still think it's ultimately not possible to replicate that, but they're trying really hard).

Wish that they didn't though- other games don't change themselves to fit the mainstream. Persona and Tales Of series are not mainstream, and yet they are always fine doing their thing. It also makes me worried that Final Fantasy is going to become basically Dark Souls 2. 0.



typical "they changed it now it sucks"

Not saying that though ? Just hate action rpgs. And don't really understand this change- when games like Mario have been the same since 1985 or something.

If you like action rpgs that's fine, just don't understand why FF has to become one, when there is games out there like Dark Souls and Skyrim.

Scruffington
03-08-2017, 09:02 AM
Seriously, I really don't get why people get so worked up over games and their expectations toward them? I mean, I'm not interested in FFVII R simply because I've kind of gotten over VII, but if they announced, say, a Kingdom Hearts game that would be a total departure in gameplay from the other games, I wouldn't be like "screw you, SE, I wanted this to be X and you choose to stomp right over my childhood" and more like "well, okay, that's different, let's see how this plays out."

Probably because FF7 is a pretty big deal to a lot of people.

Fans are frustrated because we've been waiting for well over a decade for this game to be remade. And yet SE is going in a direction that a lot of people don't like or didn't ask for.


TBH, though, I'm with Fox - VII's implementation of the ATB was one of the worst in the series so here's hoping they can make stuff more interesting

I think FF7's ATB is one of the best in the series, if not outright the best.


I'm honestly much more concerned with whether they intend to fix the God-awful part of the story that's disc 2

We've been over this before, but you seem unwilling to budge from your opinion on Disc 2 even after I've disputed many of your complaints, so we'll agree to disagree. I think Disc 2 was excellent.

On the topic of Disc 2...I wonder how they're going to do the WEAPON battles. We've seen how XV handled large scale battles -- Leviathan and Titan were a straight up mess.


Never said it is. I personally prefer turn-based games, but I can see why they'd go for an action format - they want VII to have as big an impact on the entire gaming industry as it did back in the day, so they want to make it as palatable to mainstream audiences as possible (I still think it's ultimately not possible to replicate that, but they're trying really hard)

Except by copy-pasting their action gameplay and following the trend of action RPGs, FF7R is actually following the status quo instead of setting itself apart.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 09:19 AM
When it comes to disc two - just wait until the next FF Talk episode :D

Honestly, without charge times and the gauges just pausing whenever any action happens (not even touching on the ludicrously long animations), it's basically just a turn based system with a forced time of padding between turns. And if you choose active, the enemies get an unfair edge. ATB peaked at IV and X-2 that actually had you really think on how to juggle charge and recharge times, with XII also being really cool, though the ADB system is a big enough departure from ATB to be considered its own thing


And hey, I get it - I'm not saying it's a change I want to happen, since I'm pretty indifferent to it, it's just one that was really to be expected from the start.

Of course, this is all moot anyway since we'll probably need to wait close to a decade again until even episode 1 comes out :p

Psychotic
03-08-2017, 10:10 AM
As I said in my earlier post, sure, action RPGs can be fun and many of my favourite games are action RPGs. I am looking forward to what they produce. But I just I don't know when and why Square arbitrarily decided that gamers didn't want turn based or ATB combat anymore. You know, key elements of games that made us all into fans and made them a major force in gaming. They were shocked, shocked, that their fans in the west bought Bravely Default in such numbers (http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/03/31/square-enix-to-refocus-on-jrpgs-after-bravely-default-success).

It reminds me of Resident Evil. Capcom arbitrarily decided gamers didn't want survival horror anymore and as a result their games became more and more action based, resulting in the trainwreck that was Resident Evil 6. And oh look, they went back to their survival horror roots with Resi 7 - with an innovative (in the context of the Resident Evil series) first person view - and it was both critically acclaimed and commercially successful.

Sephiroth
03-08-2017, 11:15 AM
When it comes to disc two - just wait until the next FF Talk episode :D



You might have this talk with me then, the person who acklowledges all intention of the creators.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 11:24 AM
Recordings are done, I'm afraid.

Sephiroth
03-08-2017, 11:49 AM
How can you record a conversation with me without me

Fynn
03-08-2017, 12:04 PM
How can you record a conversation with me without me

_1YC5C2kU7c

Scruffington
03-08-2017, 12:04 PM
When it comes to disc two - just wait until the next FF Talk episode :D

Who decides the topics and what people will be participating in them? Just curious, because I'm a little interested in it. :P

Fynn
03-08-2017, 12:07 PM
http://itisamystery.com/iiam.gif

Psychotic
03-08-2017, 01:02 PM
If you ever have an idea pitch around at another member and ask them to be on it with you. If you're able to get me an audio file of 10-20 minutes in length with separate audio tracks for each person (or you can send me a file each and I can merge them) I can put together a video. If your recording takes longer than that please edit it down!

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 01:03 PM
No JRPG is mainstream aside from Pokemon IMO. FF is niche in the grand scheme of things. Mainstream as far as JRPGs go but a niche in the wider world.

Gundam and Evangelion are niche in the wider world but they are the most mainstream Mecha anime. Same applies for FF.

Crop
03-08-2017, 01:13 PM
I don't get it. It sounds more like they're doing a bunch of new different stuff but just putting the FFVII name to it, why? To sell more copies?

And suggesting that they change the story of disk 2 is ridiculous. You'll find no on else who disliked disk 2 more than I, but this is a FFVII remake, if you want to change the story, battle system, character design, world etc you might as well just created a brand new FF.

Honestly I just wanted to see FFVII but all HD'd up, kinda like Resident Evil, but I'm a simple man with simple pleasures. Every single update has slowly chipped away my enthusiasm for this game to the point where I could take it or leave it.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 01:14 PM
Oh, I'm not saying they should completely change the story content of disc 2 - just present it in a way that actually makes sense. Heck, even just a better translation job would make it way more tolerable

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 01:49 PM
This game is going to sell extremely well regardless if it were turn-based or action. Why not do the cheaper route, aka, turn-based/ATB? Make it like X-2 ATB with FF-XII elements and Xenogears style attacks.

fat_moogle
03-08-2017, 01:52 PM
I don't get it. It sounds more like they're doing a bunch of new different stuff but just putting the FFVII name to it, why? To sell more copies?
No, it sounds like they're remaking the game that many of us have been wanting for years. Advent Children, Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus...people didn't ask for that. They were made to simply cash in on the Final Fantasy VII name. And of course the remake is being made to cash in on the original game as well. Square Enix is a business after all, and businesses like to make money. But at least they finally gave the fans what they wanted, and I'm sure there will be many new fans as well.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 02:19 PM
I also am not sure by what Square Enix means by saying things like they always wanted Action combat and that is why ATB existed to get around hardware limitations, despite the fact Action games such as Ys existed back then.

And if you want more money and casual mainstream western interest on the level of CoD or GTA, just make an AAA FPS title. There, problem solved. Stop making games in a niche genre.

charliepanayi
03-08-2017, 02:59 PM
Were people honestly expecting them to re-make the game exactly as before, only with 21st Century graphics and a better translation?

Fynn
03-08-2017, 03:08 PM
Were people honestly expecting them to re-make the game exactly as before, only with 21st Century graphics and a better translation?

This is exactly my point. The climate has changed substantially and SE wouldn't be able to achieve even part of their goals by just giving the game a face lift

I'm not saying I like or hate the changes, because I couldn't give a rat's ass, to be honest, but they were seriously to be expected

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 03:15 PM
If they want those WRPG numbers then go ahead and do so. Turn your series into that style of game.

Psychotic
03-08-2017, 03:38 PM
Were people honestly expecting them to re-make the game exactly as before, only with 21st Century graphics and a better translation?Of course not, there's plenty of things I would change about FFVII aside from the graphics and translation. However it's also not unreasonable to be critical about their design choices and the changes they are making either. They didn't have to remake FFVII. They could've made a brand new IP as an Action RPG or even Final Fantasy XVI.

I'm just going to quote another post I made:
Why did Square call Final Fantasy XV that rather than, to borrow from Momiji, [INSERT NEW SQUARE ENIX IP HERE: BRO SKYRIM EDITION]? Brand recognition based on the success of previous entries in the series leading to greater commercial success. If you want to use that to drive sales of and interest in your game, you also have to accept the consequence of being held up against the previous games. Or rather, live by the sword, die by the sword.Live by the buster sword, die by the buster sword.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 03:40 PM
Brand name means nothing anymore. As long as you hype up and advertise a game to death with pretty graphics, it'll sell millions. No Man's Sky for one.

Psychotic
03-08-2017, 03:44 PM
Brand name means nothing anymore. As long as you hype up and advertise a game to death with pretty graphics, it'll sell millions. No Man's Sky for one.Look at the top 10. (http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/69/playstation-4/) No Man's Sky, in case you're wondering, is #59.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 03:47 PM
Brand name means nothing anymore. As long as you hype up and advertise a game to death with pretty graphics, it'll sell millions. No Man's Sky for one.Look at the top 10. (http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/69/playstation-4/) No Man's Sky, in case you're wondering, is #59.It turned out to be a POS.

It doesn't matter if other companies can be more successful making action games, they haven't been able to, and barring massive changes to the kinds of action games they make, there is no reason to expect significant changes in results. If their goal was to sell games to FPS fans, the only remotely reliable to do that would be to make an FPS. Making a slightly more high octane action RPG is not going to cut it. If their goal was to sell to GTA fans, they would have to make a completely open non-fantasy third person shooter with driving elements, not just put a realistic looking car that's glued to the road into their fantasy set, primarily sword based RPG. Half assed appeals to completely new demographics aren't going to get them anywhere.

Fynn
03-08-2017, 03:51 PM
Except XV sold really well.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 03:52 PM
Except XV sold really well.It did. But the PS1 titles sold way more and faster.

Psychotic
03-08-2017, 03:53 PM
Exactly, that's the point I'm making. :p If they'd called it Noctis's Wild Ride instead of Final Fantasy XV, would it have sold really well? But likewise would it have taken all the criticism that it took from hardcore FF fans? Somehow I doubt it.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 03:55 PM
Exactly, that's the point I'm making. :p If they'd called it Noctis's Wild Ride instead of Final Fantasy XV, would it have sold really well? But likewise would it have taken all the criticism that it took from hardcore FF fans? Somehow I doubt it.Who knows? Casual mainstream western gamers buy anything with open world slapped on its title. I have a friend who doesn't even play JRPGs and has never played a FF game but bought XV just because it's open world.

And Sasuke's Roadtrip is a bunch better title.

charliepanayi
03-08-2017, 04:09 PM
Every FF game since FFVIII onwards has taken criticism from hardcore FF fans, that's nothing new. XV seems to have had a better reception than XIII did anyway.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 04:14 PM
Every FF game since FFVIII onwards has taken criticism from hardcore FF fans, that's nothing new. XV seems to have had a better reception than XIII did anyway.A lot of hardcore FF fans meet seem to hate on XV for being a WRPG wannabe.

Pumpkin
03-08-2017, 04:19 PM
I'm really not surprised to the point that I didn't realize it was news because I thought it had already been established.

I understand the points raised. I don't have much of a horse in this race because, while I like FFVII, it's not my favourite.

I understand series need to innovate, but at the same time I don't know if they should go too far out of what they are. Tales of and Atelier both stick to largely the same formula with some changes here and there to keep things fresh. But I know what to expect when I buy one and I am never disappointed and I buy those games day 1. I couldn't even be bothered to buy FFXV at $20 off because, while I want to play it, I'm just not as excited as I used to be about the series because I don't feel like I play the newer FF games for the same reason or to get the same experience. It's starting to feel like a different series with FF attached and some chocobos thrown in

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 04:31 PM
They might as well merge with Rockstar, make a GTA game, and put chocobos, spiky hair, and slap Final Fantasy on it.

Depression Moon
03-08-2017, 10:48 PM
I'll probably end up passing on this when it comes out. VII is one of my least favorite Final Fantasys and then changing it from turn-based which is one of the only things I wouldn't change about it.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-08-2017, 11:00 PM
I am going to take some beer and sit back, watching the bastardization of such a beloved game.

maybee
03-09-2017, 09:47 PM
Looks like we will be able to switch between characters !!!

http://gematsu.com/2017/03/tetsuya-nomura-discusses-recent-kingdom-hearts-iii-final-fantasy-vii-remake-screenshots


https://media.giphy.com/media/FjeGBljESVAzu/giphy.gif

Skyblade
03-09-2017, 10:20 PM
Looks like we will be able to switch between characters !!!

http://gematsu.com/2017/03/tetsuya-nomura-discusses-recent-kingdom-hearts-iii-final-fantasy-vii-remake-screenshots


https://media.giphy.com/media/FjeGBljESVAzu/giphy.gif

Such a shame this had to be confirmed in discussion for us to know it's there.

For some reason, there was this really nifty battle system which let you use all your characters at once, direct them all, and make them all useful even when some couldn't hit the enemy (Long Range Materia, anyone?) that had to be abandoned because Square doesn't know how to make good games any more.

Also, if anything, that interview just kills the hype even more, as it makes it sound like the AI is either incompetent, or nonexistent. When we switch from Cloud to Barret because Cloud is useless in a melee fight (gee, pity that the fantastic system that let him use magic or other things to augment his weaknesses got thrown out), what is the AI going to be doing with Cloud? Sitting there brooding like the emo teen that Square is convinced Cloud is?

Honestly, I really don't care at this point. I'm pretty much convinced that this game is going to be a complete train wreck, and honestly, I'm not sure that it is going to sell well. I once considered myself as big of a Final Fantasy fan as you could find, but I couldn't be bothered to try FFXV, and I don't see anything that would make me buy this one.

I don't even really know what Square's thoughts are on this. I think they're trying to appeal to too many audiences. It's too different to play off nostalgia, and it's too bland to appeal to anyone else. Who is the target audience, and how are you going to market this game to them? Because their trailers so far have been, frankly, awful.

I'm sure some people are hyped for it, but I expect fewer and fewer will be excited for it the longer it stays in development hell (and it'll be a long time), and it's going to release to a relatively pathetic whimper that is only going to lead to more messages of "why don't you listen to your fans, Square".

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-09-2017, 10:35 PM
The target audience is now the mainstream COD/GTA crowd or the western Open world crowd. That's my take.

Skyblade
03-09-2017, 10:37 PM
The target audience is now the mainstream COD/GTA crowd or the western Open world crowd. That's my take.

If that's true, they shouldn't bother calling it FFVII, because the name alone is enough to turn that group off the game.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-09-2017, 10:47 PM
I wish consoles never died off in Japan because then stuff like this happens. Sure we're a bigger market than Japan(it's a small island nation) but for the most part when they start catering to the mainstream western market(COD, GTA, Halo, etc.) they start alienating both sides. There's a reason why FFXV is the lowest selling FF game, in Japan. Sure, it's the best selling PS4 but FF-XIII sold more back when DS was king and there were less PS3's than there are PS4's now.

Scruffington
03-09-2017, 11:19 PM
Were people honestly expecting them to re-make the game exactly as before, only with 21st Century graphics and a better translation?

Have you ever heard of REmake?

That's pretty much what most people wanted out of this. It's not what we're getting, and that's disappointing.


Every FF game since FFVIII onwards has taken criticism from hardcore FF fans, that's nothing new. XV seems to have had a better reception than XIII did anyway.

XV is a full 2 points below XIII on Metacritic in terms of critical reception. And in terms of fan opinion, ignoring the anti-XIII circlejerk from people who are parroting other's complaints and have never played the game, XIII has been received better than XV.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-09-2017, 11:49 PM
http://gematsu.com/2017/03/tetsuya-nomura-discusses-recent-kingdom-hearts-iii-final-fantasy-vii-remake-screenshots

maybee
03-10-2017, 12:12 AM
For some reason, there was this really nifty battle system which let you use all your characters at once, direct them all, and make them all useful even when some couldn't hit the enemy (Long Range Materia, anyone?) that had to be abandoned because Square doesn't know how to make good games any more.

But Turn Based is old and dying /S

Persona 5, who that ?



Also, if anything, that interview just kills the hype even more, as it makes it sound like the AI is either incompetent, or nonexistent. When we switch from Cloud to Barret because Cloud is useless in a melee fight (gee, pity that the fantastic system that let him use magic or other things to augment his weaknesses got thrown out), what is the AI going to be doing with Cloud? Sitting there brooding like the emo teen that Square is convinced Cloud is?

Think you are misunderstanding what he's saying though, he's saying that bosses are going to have certain weaknesses and you can use tactics to flip between characters to defeat the boss. Cloud is not just going to stand there. Also, materia is still in the game. You could stay the whole game as Cloud, or use strategies with other characters.




Who is the target audience, and how are you going to market this game to them? Because their trailers so far have been, frankly, awful.


To be honest, the 16-20 crowd. Those who started with Crisis Core, haven't played the OG and think that Zack is some kind of a god and think that Cloud has always been 'emo'.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-10-2017, 01:10 AM
No, the remake is for the WRPG and Cod crowd, ultimately

Sephiroth
03-10-2017, 01:14 AM
No, the remake is for the WRPG and Cod crowd, ultimately

Hope you're joking.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-10-2017, 01:25 AM
Well, put it this way. They are going to aim for a very broad audience this time.

Sephiroth
03-10-2017, 01:28 AM
That definitely and I think that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-10-2017, 01:30 AM
When you cater of a very broad audience, you dumb things down. The OG VII itself was streamlined for its time to make JRPGs more accessible than they were before so in this case, while not necessarily a bad thing, is something you know Square Enix can't do and it has been seen in the past countless times with the past

Sephiroth
03-10-2017, 01:32 AM
When you cater of a very broad audience, you dumb things down.


I would not bet on that. They will not risk anything that might scream immediate trouble.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-10-2017, 01:37 AM
I am going to sit back and see what happens. To be fair, I won't be buyin any game until Dragon Quest XI most likely.

Scruffington
03-10-2017, 01:42 AM
That definitely and I think that is not necessarily a bad thing.

It absolutely is to me. Look at what happened to series like Resident Evil and Dead Space. Dead Space 1 and 2 were phenomenal survival horror games. Then Dead Space 3 happened, a game that ditched the horror elements and themes of dementia of the past titles, and included more action and co-op gameplay in order to reach a broader audience. The game was a massive disappointment both critically and financially.

Resident Evil had the same problem. I personally loved RE5, but at some point Capcom ditched their survival horror roots and instead made RE6 more action-packed and co-op oriented in order to reach a broader audience. It was the worst received entry in the series and even though it sold a lot of copies, it was still a financial disappointment to Capcom.

More often than not, game series that attempt to reach broader audiences end up ditching the parts that made them so successful in the first place. This leaves core fans jaded and uninterested in the series, because the things they fell in love with have been replaced with generic "action" elements. Ultimately the games often aren't compelling enough to bring in new core fans to replace the fans who left.

As much as I love Final Fantasy, I strongly oppose the direction SE is taking the games currently. I don't want 'realism' or constant action sequences. I want the 'Fantasy' to be put back into Final Fantasy.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-10-2017, 01:43 AM
FF has always been the JRPG with broad appeal but this is getting out of hand and we don't know if it will be good or bad.

Sephiroth
03-10-2017, 01:46 AM
It absolutely is to me.


Trying to make something more appealing for more people is not the real problem because it is what keeps the company alive. It is really "how that is made". If they for example listen to much to the fans - what definitely was a thing for FFXV as I say the XIII trilogy already did listen to fans and still kept what they wanted and not "what they wanted that the fans wanted"- then it might lead to trouble but I do not think with Nomura-san this will be the case. He surely has his very own feeling and does care about the fans but it is no the same amount/way.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-10-2017, 01:50 AM
I agree then. However part of many changes occur due to wanting more appeal.

Scruffington
03-13-2017, 09:49 AM
I have to say...the more I read about this game, the more devastated I am by these changes.

I honestly feel that my faith in SE is wavering more often than not these days. I don't want to overreact too much considering FF7R is still a long way out and we haven't seen much of it, but the gameplay shown so far is identical to FFXV. And to me, that's a complete travesty. I don't want an FF7 Remake with FFXV or KH gameplay. I want an FF7 Remake with FF7 gameplay.

FF7 wasn't an action RPG. I don't want it to become one. Completely changing the game's genre is not 'remaking' it, it is re-imagining it. It feels like SE is constantly trying to tell the fans what they think they want instead of listening to what they actually want.

Ultimately I really want to be wrong about this. I hope Square Enix can do the remake justice, and that the gameplay isn't be as bad as I expect it to be. But I don't feel very optimistic.

charliepanayi
03-13-2017, 11:06 AM
I have to say...the more I read about this game, the more devastated I am by these changes.

I honestly feel that my faith in SE is wavering more often than not these days. I don't want to overreact too much considering FF7R is still a long way out and we haven't seen much of it, but the gameplay shown so far is identical to FFXV. And to me, that's a complete travesty. I don't want an FF7 Remake with FFXV or KH gameplay. I want an FF7 Remake with FF7 gameplay.

FF7 wasn't an action RPG. I don't want it to become one. Completely changing the game's genre is not 'remaking' it, it is re-imagining it. It feels like SE is constantly trying to tell the fans what they think they want instead of listening to what they actually want.

Ultimately I really want to be wrong about this. I hope Square Enix can do the remake justice, and that the gameplay isn't be as bad as I expect it to be. But I don't feel very optimistic.

If SE went with 'what the fans want' they'd get nothing done as FF fans can barely agree on anything.

Scruffington
03-13-2017, 11:47 AM
If SE went with 'what the fans want' they'd get nothing done as FF fans can barely agree on anything.

While I somewhat concede that you can't always give in to fan demands, I believe that ditching the things that they love is a very poor decision.

Also the fans have unanimously wanted a remake for years now. The fact that it's even happening is the result of fan agreement on their appreciation for the game itself.

charliepanayi
03-13-2017, 12:23 PM
Great, so they can agree they want a remake. Beyond that, they scarcely agree on anything.

And was clamour for a FFVII remake really that unanimous? I think a lot of people were rather indifferent to the idea. The original game still exists after all.

Scruffington
03-13-2017, 01:14 PM
Great, so they can agree they want a remake. Beyond that, they scarcely agree on anything.

And was clamour for a FFVII remake really that unanimous? I think a lot of people were rather indifferent to the idea. The original game still exists after all.

I mean over 11 million people have bought a copy of Final Fantasy VII. It's by far one of, if not the most, most successful RPGs of all time. I think that's more than enough evidence that its appreciated by fans.

People have been hyping up an FFVII remake since the PS3 tech demo in 2005.

Elly
03-13-2017, 02:47 PM
yeah, in the time i've seen people demanding/requesting an FFVII remake, i have seen just as many say they don't want it or just don't care... unanimous is hardly the word i'd use for peoples desire for a remake... appreciation for a game is not equivalent to the want for a remake of said game, many people can appreciate a game without the word remake ever entering their minds... sales of the original also do not dictate if/when/how a remake ever happens, that's entirely on the devs/publishers and whatever criteria they decide on to make it so, or not... also that 11million is skewed by those of us that have bought it many times over, i myself have purchased FFVII at least 5 times... you can't look at this from the vacuum of an echo chamber, look around (this forum, other forums, YouTube for example) and you'll notice just as many said no or don't care when it comes to an FFVII remake, don't just look for replies that support your narrative while dismissing any that don't agree...

honestly i'm not happy with too many of the changes either, it's still not clear if it's episodic or multi-part, different devs say different things adding to the confusion... but for me episodic is the deal breaker, i like to go into the store and buy a complete game with a strategy guide and/or art-book, episodic makes that impossible, takes away one of my favorite parts about being a game collector... but, there's nothing i can do about it, i have no say, i don't work at SE, and that's something i have just had to accept...

Sephiroth
03-13-2017, 02:51 PM
Well, some fans seem pretty happy after a recent interview with Nomura-san from 2 weeks ago where he stated something and people totally misinterpreted his comment, acted prematurely and as a result made multiple interviews and comments about this with their conclusion based on something totally unequivocal.

So basically fans are just a whim of nature. With the difference that nature finds its own logical way.

Scruffington
03-13-2017, 03:03 PM
Perhaps unanimous was the wrong word to use.

My main point still stands. The fact that the remake exists means that there was enough demand for it.

@Elly: I agree with a lot of your points, especially the episodic part. It's really turning me off.

Jinx
03-14-2017, 01:54 AM
Not at all surprised, but this just killed any and all hype I had. I won't be getting this game.

Squall Leonhart Loire
03-14-2017, 02:29 AM
Great, so they can agree they want a remake. Beyond that, they scarcely agree on anything.

And was clamour for a FFVII remake really that unanimous? I think a lot of people were rather indifferent to the idea. The original game still exists after all.

I mean over 11 million people have bought a copy of Final Fantasy VII. It's by far one of, if not the most, most successful RPGs of all time. I think that's more than enough evidence that its appreciated by fans.

People have been hyping up an FFVII remake since the PS3 tech demo in 2005.
Correction. It's the most popular FF game and popular JRPG not named Pokemon.

MSJ
03-19-2017, 06:42 AM
Let me start by saying I am not a super negative person and do not wish to come off that way. I was very excited for this when it was first announced, and I'm sure it will still be worth a play.

I know it's a different era in gaming, and apparently too much work/wouldn't be feasible to do a world map (boggles my mind how that's possible on the PS1 and not PS4, but whatever). Kids these days haven't exactly had a ton to choose from as far as traditional turn based JRPG's. But I really feel Square is going to miss out on a LOT of the charm/quirkiness that makes the original so popular. Sure it was the first a lot of us played, myself included. But that alone wouldn't keep it as my favorite this long. It's the small things - the weird, snooty comments you get from Yuffie. Cid verbally abusing Shera, as horrible as it may be. The HoneyBee Inn and all of it's sleaziness. It gives the game character! Knowing games nowadays, and Square is also guilty, much of this will be toned down or removed IMO.

Like I said I was very excited when I first heard of this. I don't know why, but I expected it to be pretty close to the original. I will probably still pick it up, but I'm back to wishing they never bothered with it. Considering I haven't really enjoyed any Final Fantasy since 10, I'm sure other than nostalgia and just curiosity, this will be much the same.

FinalxxSin
03-26-2017, 01:51 PM
The reasons why people play the FF games vary from person to person. Some do it for the story. Some do it for the gameplay. Some do it for the exploration and etc. Yes, the FFVII:R could have been a turn based game, but it would not be as successful with the modern times. The world has not remained in a frozen time chamber for 20 years where nothing changed. A lot of older fans would buy it instantly with some newer people getting it out of curiosity, but that is where it would end. It's more of a challenge for the company to make an ARPG than a turn based style game at this point. Even if one were to exclude the online titles, that's still 12 mainline numbered games where experience has been gained over time with some variation of turn based combat. It doesn't necessarily mean that there won't ever be a mainline big budget turn based game again, but there's obviously support behind ARPG titles as well and room for growth.

If one does not support the format of the FFVII:R, then one should talk with their wallet. The title, and future ones, will continue to make changes. If one does not support said changes, one can always play the older titles still. If that isn't enough, one can always see themselves out the door and partake in a different series' new installments. As long as the FF brand have existed, satisfying every person is impossible at this point.

Skyblade
03-27-2017, 04:25 PM
I love the people who say "turn based is a relic of the past". I mean, I guess that's why Fire Emblem has just crashed and burned so badly lately. That's why XCOM hasn't been a huge success. Why Bravely Default did so badly. Why Hearthstone is a massive failure. Why everyone hated Undertale.

The list could go on, but I'm honestly getting bored with it. The argument is just wrong.

Yes, if the AAA industry devs had their way, we would have three genres only: Sports games, first person shooters, and hacky-slash action games. But to pretend that demand for anything outside of these genres is remote, dying off, or only due to nostalgia is simply refusing to face reality.

charliepanayi
03-27-2017, 05:33 PM
I just looked up all those games and none of them sound much like Final Fantasy to start with (Tactics aside), except Bravely Default which is five years old at this point. Turn-based combat is not a relic of the past, but it's clearly now part of FF's past and like it or not, SE are unlikely to go back.

Scruffington
03-27-2017, 06:28 PM
It's more of a challenge for the company to make an ARPG than a turn based style game at this point.

I don't think that's true. With all of Square Enix's flagship series becoming ARPGs, and the industry in general trending towards ARPGs, it's not a risk to go with ARPGs because that's exactly what everyone else is doing.

In fact, it would be a challenge to create an amazing turn based game in 2017. Clearly SE doesn't want a challenge, so they're just playing it safe and copypasting the combat from Kingdom Hearts and FFXV.


It doesn't necessarily mean that there won't ever be a mainline big budget turn based game again, but there's obviously support behind ARPG titles as well and room for growth.

There's no more room for growth. ARPGs have become exhausted because that's all SE have turned their games into.


I just looked up all those games and none of them sound much like Final Fantasy to start with (Tactics aside), except Bravely Default which is five years old at this point. Turn-based combat is not a relic of the past, but it's clearly now part of FF's past and like it or not, SE are unlikely to go back.

That wasn't the point he was making. He was making the point that games can have "older" or "traditional combat" and still be hugely successful.

If SE are unlikely to go back, then I'm going to be more unlikely to enjoy their games. And I'll continue to be critical of their titles.

charliepanayi
03-27-2017, 06:31 PM
SE are doing a FFVII remake (the very definition of a cash cow) and playing it safe? Surely not! Here was me thinking they were really going to push the boat out with this one.

FinalxxSin
03-27-2017, 08:48 PM
Radical changes are inevitable, especially as technology increases allow that radical boundary to be pushed more and more with the mainline games. History tells no lies. I - V have more in common than VI - X which have more in common than XI - XV. The pattern should be evident. The consumer on an objective level has no say in what is a FF title and what is not. It only holds value on a head canon level. That call falls on the company and the developers on each project. The FFVII:R is not playing it safe, especially given its release format. Rather it pays off or not can only be told in time. FFXV is currently the fastest selling mainline title. There is a strong possibility that the title will end up being a top 3 series seller given how it will still be getting support for the rest of the year at the very least.

Turn based games are still successful today. However, many of them are extremely stagnant and do not have the reach that the FF mainline games do and are more likely to end up on a hand held system where sells do not need to be as high to turn a profit due to lower production costs. FF mainline title production costs are unlikely to decrease in general.

maybee
03-27-2017, 10:01 PM
I just looked up all those games and none of them sound much like Final Fantasy to start with (Tactics aside), except Bravely Default which is five years old at this point. Turn-based combat is not a relic of the past, but it's clearly now part of FF's past and like it or not, SE are unlikely to go back.

Bravely Second came out last year, same with WOFF. So disagree. SE COULD go back, they just don't want too, because they want to cater to the teens/tweens who grew up with KH/ Crisis Core.

Pumpkin
03-27-2017, 10:03 PM
Trails of Cold Steel was a super good Turn-based RPG imo