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The Captain
08-22-2017, 03:47 PM
Late breaking news over the weekend brought Joss Whedon into a new, stark and sad light. For those unaware, here is a link to an essay his ex-wife wrote detailing decades of infidelity:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/22/hypocrite-preaching-feminist-ideals-director-joss-whedons-ex-wife-accuses-him-of-cheating/

While his work will surely endure, his legacy is now problemstic at best and yet another lesson not to make heroes out of anyone.

Thoughts? Reaction?

Take care all.

Jinx
08-22-2017, 03:52 PM
Not surprised. I'm always wary of nerdy "feminist" dudes who place themselves at the center of feminist narrative.

Freya
08-22-2017, 04:00 PM
I remember reading about his proposed script for Wonder Woman (https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/joss-whedon-wonder-woman-sexist-screenplay/) a few months back and was super glad it wasn't made.

Disappointing really.

Miriel
08-23-2017, 09:00 AM
Good god his Wonder Woman script was dreadful.

I will always love and appreciate shows like Bufy and Firefly.

But Joss Whedon has been called out for his pseudo feminism plenty of times over and over throughout the years that I would be surprised if anyone still bought his story that he's some sort of feminist icon.

And his infidelity doesn't surprise me at all. Though him blaming his cheating ass on the patriarchy made me want to barf. Men ain't shit.

charliepanayi
08-23-2017, 10:14 AM
Sad to hear.

His best work is still genius of course. Loads of great writers/directors were/are complete dicks towards their partners

Psychotic
08-23-2017, 11:09 AM
I'm going to start using "the patriarchy made me do it" to justify all my shit life choices. #woke

Night Fury
08-23-2017, 01:25 PM
Yeah idk man.

I love Joss's work, and I'm forever grateful for Buffy. But a lot of the best best BEST Buffy episodes were written by Jane Espenson and Marti Noxon soooooo. Also, nothing like the patriarchy to make a man his millions off the back of a strong female character right

Slothy
08-23-2017, 02:05 PM
I'm going to start using "the patriarchy made me do it" to justify all my shit life choices. #woke

Wait, we can do that? And here I've been taking personal responsibility like a sucker this whole time.

charliepanayi
08-23-2017, 02:22 PM
He should have gone for sex addiction as an excuse.

sharkythesharkdogg
08-23-2017, 02:33 PM
He should have gone for sex addiction as an excuse.

The patriarchy made him not think of that.

Psychotic
08-23-2017, 02:41 PM
He should have gone for sex addiction as an excuse.

The patriarchy made him not think of that.Now you're thinking with portals!

Shaymin
08-23-2017, 03:13 PM
Lame.

Calliope
08-24-2017, 05:13 AM
*shrug* (http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2017/08/22/submissions-open-told-joss-whedon-zine/)

charliepanayi
08-24-2017, 10:14 AM
*shrug* (http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2017/08/22/submissions-open-told-joss-whedon-zine/)

Bwahahahhahaha is that actually serious.

Only an idiot would have thought Joss Whedon was the 'perfect male feminist' anyway.
1. He works in Hollywood
2. He got rid of Charisma Carpenter on Angel after she fell pregnant!

Shaymin
08-24-2017, 04:14 PM
*shrug* (http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2017/08/22/submissions-open-told-joss-whedon-zine/)

Bwahahahhahaha is that actually serious.

Only an idiot would have thought Joss Whedon was the 'perfect male feminist' anyway.
1. He works in Hollywood
2. He got rid of Charisma Carpenter on Angel after she fell pregnant!


*goes looking for evidence to back your claim of her being fired for being pregnant; sees story of how she escaped from a serial rapist. Oh wait. it didnt mean Joss.*

Mr. Carnelian
08-24-2017, 04:35 PM
*shrug* (http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2017/08/22/submissions-open-told-joss-whedon-zine/)

Yeah, like that article says, I'm not really all that surprised. The signs were there, and if anything they've only been getting more obvious in his work as the years have gone by.

charliepanayi
08-24-2017, 06:30 PM
I don't really buy this idea that 'the signs were there'. Based on what? Plotlines in Dollhouse? By that logic Zack Snyder must be a total womaniser and David Lynch the biggest sexual predator this side of Bill Cosby. This reads more like 'we never liked Joss Whedon so now want praise because he turned out to be a dick'

Freya
08-24-2017, 08:51 PM
I guess you haven't been paying too much attention to his characters or his writing really.


Hey remember that random infertility plot from Avengers of Black Widows? Where she says she's a monster cause she can't have kids? Whedon.
Charisma Carpenter was fired from Angel because she was pregnant. [x] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_igTbXKPck)
He planned to have a character gang raped to feed into the character development of mal (Inara on Firefly) [x] (http://legendsrevealed.com/entertainment/2016/08/24/did-joss-whedon-nearly-have-a-bleak-rape-plot-on-firefly/)
The plan for WW was that she seduces the bad guy via a sexy dance? ]http://68.media.tumblr.com/83aa9a7b6d3a823e3b90641633d20e9d/tumblr_inline_oro176T5S71qhnr9h_500.png



There's more than that too.

Basically, there's been a lot of things wrong with joss but he has gotten by with a very white 90's feminism outlook. Waifish woman who punches guys = feminism!

You can still enjoy shows while making commentary on what's bad with them. Buffy did a lot to move female heros to the forefront but, there were things that were wrong with it too. It wasn't perfect.

charliepanayi
08-24-2017, 09:07 PM
The whole 'woman gets raped which spurs the guy into action/shows how bad the situation is' trope needs to be put to bed for good.

I never saw an issue with Black Widow in Age of Ultron though. It's her guilt and self-loathing talking. The film is clearly not saying that all infertile women are monsters.

Freya
08-24-2017, 09:28 PM
I had it earlier but lost it now but in the script it's less of guilt and more of just matter of fact.

Writing a woman as feeling guilty and self loathing because she can't have kids is still cringey regardless. It's unnecessary to Black Widow. It doesn't humanize her like he intended it to.

Shaymin
08-24-2017, 09:33 PM
So many possible comments...

Had to research that "proud Joss Whedon feminist" thing just to make sure he actually claimed the title instead of it being just assumed that title.

It's hard to defend him when he's clearly a dick, but as a male he'll never live up to the impossible standards set forth by female feminists. Just two seconds ago trying to research Joss reinforced the idea that feminists will do everything in their power to drive away their male allies. For me I'll just be satisfied that they have the right intentions even if theyre fucking up.


I'll probably watch his next show even if he's a douche. This scandal isnt enough to ruin him.

Freya
08-24-2017, 09:47 PM
It's hard to defend him when he's clearly a dick, but as a male he'll never live up to the impossible standards set forth by female feminists. Just two seconds ago trying to research Joss reinforced the idea that feminists will do everything in their power to drive away their male allies. For me I'll just be satisfied that they have the right intentions even if theyre fucking up.


What does this even mean?

Jinx
08-24-2017, 10:32 PM
So many possible comments...

Just two seconds ago trying to research Joss reinforced the idea that feminists will do everything in their power to drive away their male allies.

tbh most of us don't even really want them soooo

Shaymin
08-25-2017, 01:48 AM
Feminists saying they dont want male allies is basically giving up males ever seeing your point of view or ever treating you as equals and hence shooting your whole agenda in the foot. So good luck with that.

Jinx
08-25-2017, 02:11 AM
If saying, "We don't really want you as allies" is enough for you to think we don't deserve equal rights, you probably weren't an ally to begin with. :gator:

Lord Golbez
08-25-2017, 02:52 AM
If saying, "We don't really want you as allies" is enough for you to think we don't deserve equal rights, you probably weren't an ally to begin with. :gator:

Which doesn't matter to you, because you don't want allies, right?

Shaymin
08-25-2017, 03:00 AM
Nice Catch 22 there Jinx.

If saying "Fuck You. I dont want you as a friend" is enough to not make you treat me well and act friendly, then you probably werent a friend to begin with.





Sounds weird, right?

Jiro
08-25-2017, 03:02 AM
If saying, "We don't really want you as allies" is enough for you to think we don't deserve equal rights, you probably weren't an ally to begin with. :gator:

Which doesn't matter to you, because you don't want allies, right?


Nice Catch 22 there Jinx.

If saying "smurf You. I dont want you as a friend" is enough to not make you treat me well and act friendly, then you probably werent a friend to begin with.





Sounds weird, right?

Don't be fucking tosspots. You're either an ally or you're not; you don't switch sides because someone is allegedly mean to you. Being an ally is not the same as being a friend; I can think a woman is a terrible person, but she's still entitled to equal rights. Your deliberate ignorance is even undermining your petty tantrum.

Jinx
08-25-2017, 03:07 AM
Nice Catch 22 there Jinx.

If saying "smurf You. I dont want you as a friend" is enough to not make you treat me well and act friendly, then you probably werent a friend to begin with.





Sounds weird, right?

No, it doesn't. If someone saying "I don't really want you as a friend" is enough to make you think they don't deserve to be treated with respect, then no. You probably never cared about them as a person to begin with. Nice false equivalency, by the way.

Let me say this again very plainly: if someone not wanting you as an ally is enough to make you stop believing they deserve basic human rights, you are not a good person, and you were never any ally to begin with. You didn't care about equality, you cared about the good feelies and the praise.




Which doesn't matter to you, because you don't want allies, right?

Man, how many jimmies did I rustle that I made a lurker come out of the works to make their very first post!

Freya
08-25-2017, 03:17 AM
No flame wars will be had.

Official warning for no flaming of wars. Calmly discuss this topic. Or not at all.

EDIT:

Alrighty, we're going to not derail a thread with this. Please continue discussing how bad Joss is though.

Jinx
08-25-2017, 03:28 AM
That was kind of the idea. Our is pretty dead too.:cry: :sadtea

I believe all this time we were locking not swords, but shields.

73855

Lone Wolf Leonhart
08-25-2017, 03:36 AM
73856

Shaymin
08-25-2017, 03:39 AM
Don't be smurfing tosspots. You're either an ally or you're not; you don't switch sides because someone is allegedly mean to you. Being an ally is not the same as being a friend; I can think a woman is a terrible person, but she's still entitled to equal rights. Your deliberate ignorance is even undermining your petty tantrum.

*snip* Throwing insults is over the line. - Night Fury

You're NOT either an ally or you're not. Unless you want to argue people were born pro equal rights and anti equal rights. Your viewpoint is influenced by a variety of factors throughout your life and guess what viewpoint males would universally have on the opposite sex if all they received was hostility during their interactions? A bad one.

Throw out that "allegedly." No one was talking "allegedly" here. OF COURSE people will switch sides when someone is mean to them. They'll switch sides over a lot less than that, but hell yes if you treat your allies/friends like crap or outright turn on them they'll switch sides in a second.

My entire point/beef is feminists should stop putting up this wall to people who basically on their side, constantly challenging their feminist street cred being openly hostile to and witch hunting males who cant live up to some ridiculous vague perfect standard.

Shaymin
08-25-2017, 03:41 AM
Just saw the flamewar warning. Ill go silent and back to Joss only

Freya
08-25-2017, 03:46 AM
Shaymin, as a newer member so you may not know, I do advise if you do want to discuss the topic of allies and feminism that you may want to make a thread in Academia (http://home.eyesonff.com/forumdisplay.php/213-Academia). Here in the lounge it's more about media and all the goodies that come with that. While Academia is more for our debates and hot button issues. We seperate them so if people don't want to see heated debates when looking at threads about the newest tv show or movie, they wont have to.

Shaymin
08-25-2017, 03:51 AM
I just tend to play devil's advocate even if the devil doesnt deserve it. That's when they need it most anyway...

Scotty_ffgamer
08-25-2017, 06:25 AM
I don't have much of an opinion on Joss since I don't really follow celebrities or tend to know anything about their personal lives. I'm not really a huge fan of his work either. If he cheated on his wife over the years and is blaming anything besides himself, that's crap. He seems to be a pretty crappy person.

The Captain
08-25-2017, 06:18 PM
Didn't expect this to turn into a heated debate but I suppose it can be expected when such delicate issues of equality and hypocrisy are now in play.

One thing to note, is that, it is one thing to SAY you're a feminist or an ally of equal rights and another to actually live that life. Far too many people in positions of power claim things for the press or the positive PR but it's in actions more than words where the true nature exists.

In much the same way, I have had long discussions with many friends about whether white people for instance can really be allies in civil rights struggles since they cannot fully understand or feel the same as black people do. Such as it is here for men who are allies of women seeking equality. I tend to believe that if you are helping out for the right reasons, a sense of actual equality and justice and not just the good vibes and praise then you are a welcome ally in any struggle. Let's face it, these are long, complicated problems and the more people who can join the causes together for the greater good, the better. Yes of course, some people might be joining for the wrong reasons but ultimately, they will be weeded out, either through action or attitude.

Bringing this back full circle to Whedon, I think he remains a complicated case. He did in fact help create several strong female-centric characters and stories which is for the good, but in his own life, failed to live up to the self-proclaimed expectations behind them. As such, it might once more be a case of separating the art from the artist. He should get credit for the work but not be allowed to tread a path of least resistance in life based on hype or media praise that isn't true.

Take care all.

Chibi Youkai
08-26-2017, 03:30 PM
There's an interesting line in the article, that pretty much sums up everything


“I want to let women know that he is not who he pretends to be,” Cole wrote. “I want the people who worship him to know he is human,..."

I think that sums everything up right there. He's done some great things, he's done some terrible things, but at the end of the day he's human, and has just chosen to stick himself in the limelight, and got caught. Sadly, this sort of thing happens all over the world, but those we place on pedestals end up as scapegoats for all of humanity. So do we stop hanging out with people who make those mistakes in day to day life? Sometimes, sometimes not. Kind of feel the same way about this. Probably won't stop watching his stuff, but it's a reminder that these figures are just people too.

Forsaken Lover
08-26-2017, 04:00 PM
FYI, no one says you can just blame the patriarchy, any more than you can blame the drug addicts in your family for why you're a drug addict or why the person who was raised by Klansmen hates black people. It's just a factor in assessing why you are who you are. Feminist 001 is too complicated for the Internet.

Anyway, I will always love Buffy. Buffy is a show that far transcends Joss Whedon. It was the product of many great writers, actors, actresses, stunt people, cameramen... Joss could literally murder someone and it wouldn't make a difference in Buffy's legacy as far as i'm concerned because to brush off that show's largely positive effect on pop culture would be a disservice to all the cool people like Alyson Hannigan an Amber Benson who helped a lot of young confused kids.

Colonel Angus
08-27-2017, 06:28 AM
73942

Laddy
08-27-2017, 09:29 AM
Damn self-congralutory fake male feminists make us real and pure male feminists look bad.

Del Murder
08-29-2017, 06:13 PM
He's a douchebag for cheating on his wife, but Buffy and Firefly were still good shows. I never really saw the guy as a feminist icon, just a good writer.