Say what you willl . . .

[Foo]

But I love FFVIII

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Also, after 7 years I've finally hit 100 posts!

Whoo-hoo!

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[maybee]

Why would FF13 feel sorry for FF8 ? Should be the other way around ?

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, I kind of feel that XIII took VIII's place as the black sheep in the series.

[WarZidane]

Isn't XV the black sheep at this point? :p

[Wolf Kanno]

Yes, but that's because like any long running franchise, FF suffers from the Zelda cycle (well until Breath of the Wild actually broke the cycle).

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So generally, the last entry is always the "worst" entry. At least until some time has passed and we can evaluate it better. With that said, FFII and VIII are still black sheep entries, and I have no doubt XIII will also stay in this category. I honestly feel XV will probably go up in it's standing once some time has passed and the raw emotions about it's troubled release have subsided.

[Darkhero]

I think XV will remain a divisive game, just not as derided as VIII or XIII in the long run.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

The main problem I had with VIII was that I couldn't get into the Junction system and instead of using the Draw function at all just spammed summons, which made the battles long and boring - but you could still win most (if not all) of them that way. If I ever played it again I would try to Draw more - I did enjoy the soundtrack well enough (which is sometimes a complaint) and the story/characters were OK for me, even if I didn't find them as engaging as VII or IX. But unlike those 2 games, which I didn't complete because (at the time) I didn't want them to end, VIII I dropped because I couldn't put up with the battles anymore. I was pretty far into the game - probably disc 3 or 4 - but I just never went back to it. And now when I can't even bring myself to complete the games in the series I enjoy more, I don't know if I'll ever go back.

[Vermachtnis]

I don't know how I feel about this game. I hate it, yet I love it. The junction system is stupidly broken in both good and bad ways. The characters are stupid and I can see where they're coming from. The only parts of the game I love are the soundtrack and the Laguna segments.

[Wolf Kanno]

The main problem I had with VIII was that I couldn't get into the Junction system and instead of using the Draw function at all just spammed summons, which made the battles long and boring - but you could still win most (if not all) of them that way. If I ever played it again I would try to Draw more - I did enjoy the soundtrack well enough (which is sometimes a complaint) and the story/characters were OK for me, even if I didn't find them as engaging as VII or IX. But unlike those 2 games, which I didn't complete because (at the time) I didn't want them to end, VIII I dropped because I couldn't put up with the battles anymore. I was pretty far into the game - probably disc 3 or 4 - but I just never went back to it. And now when I can't even bring myself to complete the games in the series I enjoy more, I don't know if I'll ever go back.

Honestly, Drawing magic is like the worst way to get magic. It's great for finding new spells and obtaining some of the GFs but the best way to get 100 of a spell is to abuse the refinement abilities GFs teach. In fact, unless you're playing a low level run, I generally suggest you prioritize refinement skills over all other abilities except ones that open up new stats to be junctioned. With a little patience, you can actually have 100 Blizzara spells Junctioned to your weapon for elemental damage to OHKO Ifrit at the beginning of the game by just focusing on refinement skills.

Junctioning feels daunting, not helped by the awful and cluttered tutorial menus, but it's surprisingly straight forward once you get the knack for it.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

The main problem I had with VIII was that I couldn't get into the Junction system and instead of using the Draw function at all just spammed summons, which made the battles long and boring - but you could still win most (if not all) of them that way. If I ever played it again I would try to Draw more - I did enjoy the soundtrack well enough (which is sometimes a complaint) and the story/characters were OK for me, even if I didn't find them as engaging as VII or IX. But unlike those 2 games, which I didn't complete because (at the time) I didn't want them to end, VIII I dropped because I couldn't put up with the battles anymore. I was pretty far into the game - probably disc 3 or 4 - but I just never went back to it. And now when I can't even bring myself to complete the games in the series I enjoy more, I don't know if I'll ever go back.

Honestly, Drawing magic is like the worst way to get magic. It's great for finding new spells and obtaining some of the GFs but the best way to get 100 of a spell is to abuse the refinement abilities GFs teach. In fact, unless you're playing a low level run, I generally suggest you prioritize refinement skills over all other abilities except ones that open up new stats to be junctioned. With a little patience, you can actually have 100 Blizzara spells Junctioned to your weapon for elemental damage to OHKO Ifrit at the beginning of the game by just focusing on refinement skills.

Junctioning feels daunting, not helped by the awful and cluttered tutorial menus, but it's surprisingly straight forward once you get the knack for it.

Thanks for the advice - I'll keep that in mind if I end up replaying. I wasn't even aware that there were refinement skills - shows how little I know about the system. And yeah, I agree that the tutorials weren't very helpful.

[Bubba]

Congrats on the milestone Foo!

I still have FFXIII collecting dust in my gaming room so I can’t compare the two. FFVIII is still one of my favourite entries despite its many flaws.

I thought the characters and the world they created were were incredibly rich. I still wish they could have done more with the party’s SEED status. There should have been a tonne of sidemissions that you could complete as part of your SEED duties.

[Skyblade]

Yes, but that's because like any long running franchise, FF suffers from the Zelda cycle (well until Breath of the Wild actually broke the cycle).

75198

So generally, the last entry is always the "worst" entry. At least until some time has passed and we can evaluate it better. With that said, FFII and VIII are still black sheep entries, and I have no doubt XIII will also stay in this category. I honestly feel XV will probably go up in it's standing once some time has passed and the raw emotions about it's troubled release have subsided.

Well, don't ignore that the opinions might actually be valid.

A lot of people started with VII. VIII was not as good as it. IX was worse still. X took a breather and was a better game than its predecessor. X-2 was largely despised. XI was not even the right type of game. XII was worse than IX. XIII was worse still. XIII-2 took the series further down. XIII-3 still further. XIV decided to not even be a Final Fantasy again. And XV was a car driving simulator.

So, it's not that it's some cycle of just hating on the most recent game. It's that Final Fantasy has been steadily getting worse and worse and worse.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

Well, don't ignore that the opinions might actually be valid.

A lot of people started with VII. VIII was not as good as it. IX was worse still. X took a breather and was a better game than its predecessor. X-2 was largely despised. XI was not even the right type of game. XII was worse than IX. XIII was worse still. XIII-2 took the series further down. XIII-3 still further. XIV decided to not even be a Final Fantasy again. And XV was a car driving simulator.

So, it's not that it's some cycle of just hating on the most recent game. It's that Final Fantasy has been steadily getting worse and worse and worse.

I can actually agree with most of that except for IX being bad and X being better than it.

[Wolf Kanno]

I honestly like VIII and IX are better than VII, X is where I felt the series began to falter, and XII was a decent reprieve that fell short of it's potential. I honestly feel most people will mark XIII as one of the weakest entries in the series and while XV will never join games like IV, VI, and VII as the most beloved entries, I feel people will eventually come around to it, much like what I've seen with FFXII which got a pretty good resurgence in popularity and vindication after the Zodiac Age was released.

Yet the Zelda cycle does kind of stand because I feel the hatred against VIII was at it's strongest shortly after it's release and now more players have mellowed out and it's floated somewhere into the middle for most players. Same deal with IX. I was actually surprised FFX didn't do better with it's HD release to be honest. A quick glance at charts shows that it may have sold slightly better than XII's HD but only by a few thousand and only when you take in account Vita sales. Yet, for a game considered to be the "second best" in the franchise by Japan and some people overseas, I was expecting higher numbers and better reviews.

[Skyblade]

Well, don't ignore that the opinions might actually be valid.

A lot of people started with VII. VIII was not as good as it. IX was worse still. X took a breather and was a better game than its predecessor. X-2 was largely despised. XI was not even the right type of game. XII was worse than IX. XIII was worse still. XIII-2 took the series further down. XIII-3 still further. XIV decided to not even be a Final Fantasy again. And XV was a car driving simulator.

So, it's not that it's some cycle of just hating on the most recent game. It's that Final Fantasy has been steadily getting worse and worse and worse.

I can actually agree with most of that except for IX being bad and X being better than it.

IX really needs an HD port, to be honest. Even at the time of release, it's graphics didn't look great. It pushed the PS1 way too hard, even with the stylized aesthetic.

There's also a lot of aspects of it that irk me, personally. I'm not a fan of several of the character designs (although personalities and story moments tend to be great), I despise some of the mechanics (Trance especially). And I absolutely loathe and hate the game for putting a unique reward in the game that you can only get by speedrunning it and skipping out on everything good about the series. RPGs exist to immerse yourself in the world, explore, watch events, and talk to people. Not to rush through.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

Well, don't ignore that the opinions might actually be valid.

A lot of people started with VII. VIII was not as good as it. IX was worse still. X took a breather and was a better game than its predecessor. X-2 was largely despised. XI was not even the right type of game. XII was worse than IX. XIII was worse still. XIII-2 took the series further down. XIII-3 still further. XIV decided to not even be a Final Fantasy again. And XV was a car driving simulator.

So, it's not that it's some cycle of just hating on the most recent game. It's that Final Fantasy has been steadily getting worse and worse and worse.

I can actually agree with most of that except for IX being bad and X being better than it.

IX really needs an HD port, to be honest. Even at the time of release, it's graphics didn't look great. It pushed the PS1 way too hard, even with the stylized aesthetic.

There's also a lot of aspects of it that irk me, personally. I'm not a fan of several of the character designs (although personalities and story moments tend to be great), I despise some of the mechanics (Trance especially). And I absolutely loathe and hate the game for putting a unique reward in the game that you can only get by speedrunning it and skipping out on everything good about the series. RPGs exist to immerse yourself in the world, explore, watch events, and talk to people. Not to rush through.

I didn't know about the speedrun weapon until just the last few years, but I would never play through the game that way anyway - it's just an optional secret there for those who do want to try a speedrun. I can see what you mean about the graphics in the original PS1 version but I believe the recent PC/PS4 port has improved the graphics (haven't tried it yet). As for the mechanics they didn't really bother me. I enjoyed the world of the game because it was quite unique in the series, the OST was great and I thought the story was pretty good. I've never actually finished it though - got close to the end and then never completed it (similar to VII).

EDIT: Lol, the VIII thread has become a IX thread.

[Fynn]

So my views on the series are pretty much the exact opposite of Skyblade’s, today I learned :monster:


FFVIII is goofy but that’s okay. It knows far better what it is than FFVII ever did and the mechanics are actually fun to mess around with this time around. When I had my marathon, I was surprised with how much fun I was having with FFVIII, despite the fact that i never had fond memories of it before. Now I like it a lot and think it’s much better than VII, though one thing I did always enjoy was Squall, whom I still love and co spider the best protagonist in mainline FF - that’s how you write a character that’s both dynamic and relatable. One thing I enjoyed considerably less than the first time was the music, which I think is the worst in the numbered series, though I know a lot of people disagree

[Skyblade]

So my views on the series are pretty much the exact opposite of Skyblade’s, today I learned :monster:


FFVIII is goofy but that’s okay. It knows far better what it is than FFVII ever did and the mechanics are actually fun to mess around with this time around. When I had my marathon, I was surprised with how much fun I was having with FFVIII, despite the fact that i never had fond memories of it before. Now I like it a lot and think it’s much better than VII, though one thing I did always enjoy was Squall, whom I still love and co spider the best protagonist in mainline FF - that’s how you write a character that’s both dynamic and relatable. One thing I enjoyed considerably less than the first time was the music, which I think is the worst in the numbered series, though I know a lot of people disagree

FFVIII is definitely one of my favorite games in the mainline series. I absolutely agree with you is that Squall is the best protagonist in mainline Final Fantasy. It had some fantastic plot set pieces, some beautiful character moments, some brilliant sidequests and side characters. The locations were also one of the strong points of the game, with a great variety, excellent designs, and filled with characters who made them feel alive.

But, while the mechanics may be "fun to mess around with", they were still a mess. It was way too easy to min max, rendered half of your options useless, and had a bunch of other balancing and enjoyment issues. Yes, it could be fun to play around with, but that's true of almost every battle system. I mean, you could even enjoy messing around creating Gambits in XII before you let the game play itself. But I had a lot more fun playing around with the Materia system than I did the Junction system. It easier, more visually appealing, less tedious, and far better balanced. Overall, the system is just...bad. You get punished way too much for using the systems. Magic isn't worth the trade off of stats, and then you have to work to build up the magic you used, and it's just tedious. You play for a bit, then go back to just spamming Attack + R1 on everything.

And the graphics weren't great. Granted, FFVII didn't have the best graphics either. And I played them both on PC for the first time (only a year after the original release dates for the PlayStation), so I didn't get the original experience. But even with antialiasing and some of the better graphical options, the character models in VIII did not look as smooth as the stylized aesthetic in FFVII.

The plot was also kind of a mess. It had several issues with narrative flow and pacing, I felt. Those great set pieces weren't always tied well together, and I just feel as though the overall game was not as strong as FFVII was, despite surpassing it in some areas. Sort of like how, despite Persona 4 having some parts that it pulled off better than Persona 3, Persona 3 was still the better game, with a more cohesive message and structure.

I do really like the game, don't get me wrong. I just don't like it as much. Some of it may be nostalgia, but that mess of a battle system is undoubtedly a contributor as well.

[Fynn]

That’s fair, though I was still pretty disillusioned in my marathon when I noticed how much FFVII just completely fell apart after disc one. As silly as FFVIII is, I do appreciate the fact that at least it stays silly throughout and there’s nothing as damning as the huge materia quest happening.

As for the mechanics, that’s also up to personal preference. Materia felt much more empty to me, with the materia itself gaining AP at such a slow rate that you really had to grind or wait a super long time to get to the more interesting abilities. And then the materia splits into two and it’s usually so late in the game that my reaction is a resounding “so what?” On the other hand, Junction was fun to me from the beginning and I won’t deny it’s hilariously unbalanced - but it’s finding the various ways to exploit it is really what I love the most about it. I also love the fact that, since enemies scale to you, you really have to rely on it to overpower them in the long run.

[Skyblade]

That’s fair, though I was still pretty disillusioned in my marathon when I noticed how much FFVII just completely fell apart after disc one. As silly as FFVIII is, I do appreciate the fact that at least it stays silly throughout and there’s nothing as damning as the huge materia quest happening.

I actually think the later discs are relatively well handled. It starts off with a fairly leisurely stroll across the world, chasing Sephiroth. But the story ratchets up the danger and tension really well even early on in the second disc. You're kept on your toes, reacting to events that seem to be constantly spiraling worse and worse.

Maybe it wouldn't hold up if I went back and replayed it today. I dunno. I haven't played that far in a long time.


As for the mechanics, that’s also up to personal preference. Materia felt much more empty to me, with the materia itself gaining AP at such a slow rate that you really had to grind or wait a super long time to get to the more interesting abilities. And then the materia splits into two and it’s usually so late in the game that my reaction is a resounding “so what?” On the other hand, Junction was fun to me from the beginning and I won’t deny it’s hilariously unbalanced - but it’s finding the various ways to exploit it is really what I love the most about it. I also love the fact that, since enemies scale to you, you really have to rely on it to overpower them in the long run.

I agree with you on the problem with slow growth. I think they could have easily cut the required AP to level up Materia in half, if not further, without really affecting game balance. And you're also correct in that the splitting system is nearly worthless, since you start out with the new Materia being fresh. It's basically only useful for long term grinding.

But all you could really do with Junctioning was change your stats. There were so many combinations and techs you could pull off thanks to the various types of Materia. There weren't a lot of extra commands in FFVIII, and there were no real ability combinations that worked well together. It was the blue and purple Materia that really made that system shine. If it was just "put ability into slot", it would be far more boring. The ability to change what your abilities did and how you used them was a game changer that FFVIII lacked.

[Wolf Kanno]

Not to but in, but I feel the issue I have with VII's materia system is similar to an issue several FFs have which is that it sacrifices challenge for variety. Yes, the Blue and Purple Materia add plenty of customization options but there is honestly very little reason to use most of it. Even Magic Materia is largely filler once you start amassing Enemy Skills which are often more powerful, efficient, and economical in design.

I mean I don't know too many people who would swear by the Elemental Materia. Potentially, this should be like one of the premier Materia but the damage modifiers as a weapon are nothing to really shout about, magic is often better used for crowd control and even then summons are more efficient, and while there is a lot of potential for defensive purposes, once you leave Midgard you'll start acquiring accessory/armor that already confers elemental defense completely undermining the Materia's usefulness. My real issue here is that a lot of the Blue Materia falls into this camp of sounding useful but then kind of being pointless when you put into account that VII is hardly difficult and there are almost always more practical strategies that are often more efficient.

Granted, you can screw around and build interesting party configures, but it doesn't really change that most of VII's enemies can be destroyed by simply mashing X or using a summon. Again, I would like to point out that this is not a problem unique to VII, as VI, VIII, and X are all notoriously guilty of this dilemma