Franchise Killers

[Wolf Kanno]

So I've been playing a lot of SaGa and Mana games lately and I'm reaching the point where the few titles I own but have not played yet are ones that many fans describe as the "franchise killers" of the series which made both entries take a number of years before a real sequel was made and even then, both series have only recently climbed their way out of mobile purgatory.

So what makes a particular game a franchise killer? What are some notable ones that killed your interest in the series? Which ones did you feel were unfairly called a franchise killer?

[Psychotic]

Mass Effect Andromeda was a shitshow trying to cash in on the open world trend instead of sticking to what ME did best.

[Fynn]

Breath of Fire: Drahon Quarter is definitely a franchise killer - and I say that as someone who adores the game and actually probably considers it the pinnacle of said series. I feel that, especially in very niche franchises with a specific, rigid identity (which BoF definitely was), any deviation of the norm will be met with fan scrutiny in various degrees. Even Breath of Fire IV, despite being an excellent game with really sophisticated storytelling for a PS1 JRPG, was already shat upon by the fanbase because of its change in tone and setting. Then Dragon Quarter came around with an extremely experimental... well everything, and while many modern gamers come into it now and really appreciate its ambition and how ahead of its time it was, back then it just alienated people who wanted an epic medieval fantasy with dragons even further.

The same goes for Silent Hill 4. Another game that I hold in really high regard and is my second favorite right after 2, but was still hated enough by the fans (again, essentially for being different - though of course the game has its share of flaws) that that was pretty much the end of Japan-made Silent Hill, not to mention the interest in later titles was much poorer. It may not have killed its franchise as hard as DQ, but it definitely put it in a severe coma. Maybe it’s for the better, considering what happened with the brand after :monster:

As a bit of a side note, Yahtzee sums up my thoughts on the game pretty well in a recent video and I’m so happy I’m not alone!

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[Slothy]

I still haven't played Resident Evil 7, but I'll say Resident Evil 4 was a franchise killer for me anyway. Instead of an enjoyable survival horror game we got a boring third person shooter than controls like poo, handwaves away all of the story up until that game in favour of something new that comes out of nowhere and isn't as interesting, is loaded with QTE's that frequently like to cross the line into being unfair, and is generally a terrible pile of dog poopies. Resident Evil 5 managed to fix none of the problems and actually get worse, and I'm pretty sure everyone thought the series was dead by the time RE6 rolled around. I'm going to play 7 since it sounds like it's actually great, though from the sounds of it it might as well almost be a completely different series aside from some familiar characters showing up.

So there's my feelings. RE4 killed the RE games I actually enjoyed, RE5 and RE6 killed what the series had become, and now we've got some entirely new take on things that changes it all up yet again. I'm not complaining about that, though the sheer number of franchise killers the franchise has had is amazing now that I think about it.

As for unfairly called franchise killers? I may need to think on that for a bit.

[Fox]

Final Fantasy XV, obviously. But even harder than that has to be Metal Gear Solid V. What an absolute trainwreck that was, as it was was not only awful in its own right but retroactively diminished the other games in the series as well.

[maybee]

even harder than that has to be Metal Gear Solid V.

But.....cute dog ......

[Zora]

The Metroid series in a post Other M world was a dismal one. Samus Returns sounds alright for what it is and hopefully Metroid Prime 4 is something special.

[Fynn]

I think it’s kind of too early to say if FFXV is a franchise killer. Unless you just ran your own personal franchise killer - I won’t stop you there :monster:

[Loony BoB]

Yeah, I don't know if we're supposed to refer to games that ruined a franchise for us individually or games that ruined the franchise full stop.

For the latter, Psy nailed the one that sprang to mind for me. Mass Effect Andromeda. I mean, I enjoyed it enough but it never gave me any real sense of intrigue or adventure like the previous series did. From what I understand (only played a couple of Halo games), Halo 4 could be mentioned too, although clearly Halo is still going so I don't know how true that really is.

For me personally? Can't think of much outside of (again) Andromeda. Hmm. Assassin's Creed 3, perhaps, although that's heavily biased towards my disinterest in that period of time in civilization combined with the fact that my drive crashed out and I lost my save after dozens of hours of gameplay. I never had the energy to reinvest.

Duke Nukem Forever was something awful entirely but that's Duke Nukem Forever, I half expected it to be trash but just wasn't ready for just how trash it really was. I did enjoy parts of it though, but not more than I enjoyed, say, Andromeda or AC3.

I tend to enjoy games a lot so it's rare that I actually find myself put off a series entirely.

[WarZidane]

I mean, technically it's whatever was the latest game in the franchise before it died, but to squarely put the blame on that game would be harsh and naive.

Take Mass Effect: Andromeda for example, EA effectively killed Mass Effect before we even saw Andromeda because they took a huge IP with massive expectations, and handed it off to an inexperienced dev studio (and forced them to make it in a different engine, which probably didn't have nearly as many tools as the Unreal Engine to make a proper third-person RPG). Can you really call the game the franchise killer when EA threw it away like that?

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, I don't know if we're supposed to refer to games that ruined a franchise for us individually or games that ruined the franchise full stop.


Both actually, though I would suggest people distinguish between the two when making your mentions. Also note that Franchise Killer doesn't necessarily mean the franchise did end and there could be sequels made afterwards, but the "killer" aspect comes in by the fact the franchise's popularity was greatly diminished afterwards.

The two games I sort of mention in the OP are Dawn of Mana and Unlimited SaGa. While neither franchise were particularly huge before their release, these two games have the distinction of being the last console releases for both franchises. After their release, both franchises pretty much stopped having games made for years until they both received some off brand mobile titles. Only in the last few years have they finally started to see a resurgence, though in both cases, the bigger draw have been remakes/remasters. So even a "dead" franchise could still live. I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned some pretty obvious ones like Sonic the Hedgehog 06, which falls into the camp of a game that seriously hurt the clout of the franchise overall, and has largely been followed up by one disastrous sequel after another.

[Slothy]

and forced them to make it in a different engine, which probably didn't have nearly as many tools as the Unreal Engine to make a proper third-person RPG.

A buddy of mine works at EA and I can confirm the frostbite engine was really good at the things it was originally made to do well and had tools for making Battlefield games and basically nothing else. I'm sure it's probably a improved now after years of multiple teams using it and making their own tools for it, but at the time Andromeda was being made? Nope, it was still pretty bad then. They would have still had to make a lot of things that are readily available with Unreal engine and have been for a very long time. So getting a new team to build their own dev tools for a fairly unfamiliar engine at the time and develop a game in what amounted to about a year and a half in the end is really just a bad idea in general. It's probably a miracle Andromeda was as good as it was to be honest (I assume. Still haven't played it).

[maybee]

I think it’s kind of too early to say if FFXV is a franchise killer.

Disgaree. It's clear that Square is going to carry on with what they did with FFXV with future FF titles and the FF VII remake, because they've been shown that it works.

FF16 is going be DLC Episode heavy, with one playable character in a action based battle system and it's going to be geared towards Western tastes in RPGs.

"But Square experiments " ! SquareSOFT, experiments, SquareENIX does whatever they think is going to be a big success. FF2, FF8, FF9, FF10, FF10-2 and the early workings of FF12 are all under Squaresoft. I wouldn't be too shocked if it was SE that wanted Vaan as the main lead for the fangirls, it could've of been Soft anxious after Spirits Within failure though.

FF13 ? That was SE trying to make another "FF7", not really a experiment. FFXV even started out as " Versus " part of the FF13 universe, as SE wanted to make another FFVII compilation with it all. Not really a experiment when you are trying to make something that's going to milk cows for money.

[Fynn]

Well imo, a franchise killer is a game that definitively pulls the plug on a series. Like the Dragon Quarter example I mentioned - the fanbase was already split on IV, but then when DQ came about, it was so unpopular while taking up enough resources that Capcom decided it was no longer financially viable to continue the series. Whatever your thoughts on FFXV are, it was still popular enough (at least with the new crowd) that the FF brand is still very much alive and kicking. XVI might very well kill it though, but it’s still not the time for that.

[Loony BoB]

Indeed, FFXV was more franchise saver than killer for the masses, although I can understand if people might think differently on a personal level (as anyone is entitled to).

[Fox]

I will downgrade my 'FFXV is a franchise killer' to a personal remark if and when they announce FFXVI, and if it's not another MMO. Fair play to XIV, it's still plodding along, but the rest of the franchise is currently giving us... XV DLC and a VII remake that's in production hell. Just like all of Square Enix's flagship games seem to end up in these days. Gotta build that new engine each time, yo.

[Wolf Kanno]

XVI is inevitable. Despite people's gripes with XV, the game has been financially sound for Squenix despite all the problems it had with the older fans but that's been the same since even the game's heyday. Recent interviews (http://www.novacrystallis.com/2015/08/final-fantasy-versus-xiii-was-around-25-complete-when-it-became-final-fantasy-xv/) in the last year have also been confirming my hunch that vXIII was never in any real development until the execs turned it to a numbered entry and handed it to Tabata, so honestly the turn around time for XV's development is not as bad as fans think it is, roughly four to five years as opposed to the ten most fans think it had. As it stands, the game has sold around seven million copies within two years. So honestly, despite fans wailing on it, and I understand this sentiment cause we all know I did the same with XIII, I can't fathom how SE would not see this game as a success.

I think the only reason why no one at SE is talking XVI yet is because the company is bogged down with too many high profile titles as it is. I feel once KHIII is released and SE has a better idea of the time table for the VIIR titles come out, will we see info about XVI. Then again, SE is having a special event for E3, I wouldn't be surprised if they end it with a reveal of XVI being worked on. Probably nothing but a logo to show for it and the revelation that Motomu Toriyama's team is working on it, but I can totally see SE announcing it.

[Fox]

I feel once KHIII is released and SE has a better idea of the time table for the VIIR titles come out, will we see info about XVI.

"Once I win the lottery and get struck by a meteor - XVI is inevitable."

OK, OK, I joke but still. KHIII actually - against all odds - seem to be coming out at some point in the not incredibly distant future. But if I were you I'd hope the development and announcement of XVI is not at all dependent on the progress of VIIR, I have even less confidence in that coming out than in XVI.


Probably nothing but a logo to show for it and the revelation that Motomu Toriyama's team is working on it

If the series isn't dead already, that'd do it.

[The Captain]

One that I'd throw out would be Xenosaga Episode II. The forever and a day cut scenes, the strange battle system, the long slog of corridor running, all of it pretty much killed any hopes of a full 6 episode run for that series and honestly, kept me from playing Episode III even though I have heard it made improvements on Episode II.

Take care all.

[Wolf Kanno]

I feel once KHIII is released and SE has a better idea of the time table for the VIIR titles come out, will we see info about XVI.

"Once I win the lottery and get struck by a meteor - XVI is inevitable."

OK, OK, I joke but still. KHIII actually - against all odds - seem to be coming out at some point in the not incredibly distant future. But if I were you I'd hope the development and announcement of XVI is not at all dependent on the progress of VIIR, I have even less confidence in that coming out than in XVI.

VII is a license to print money, Squenix can fuck it up all it wants and I'm sure the profits from just Episode 1 will be enough to cover the damages. I cannot imagine it not coming out, even if it takes them fifteen years and two console jumps, I believe it will be released cause it's just too financially sound not to.



Probably nothing but a logo to show for it and the revelation that Motomu Toriyama's team is working on it

If the series isn't dead already, that'd do it.

Ain't that the truth. Would kill my interest from the get go, but technically he's not doing anything really important at the moment, so he's the most likely candidate unless Kitase taps a new director. Tabata is working on a new project not connected to the mainline series as well as FF Awakening (a Type-0 browser spin-off) so he's got his hands full. I've honestly come to the conclusion from the various interviews that most of SE's old school designers are actively avoiding working on the numbered series, with Tokita citing he prefers the creative freedom given to him from the mobile division, Kawazu busy working on the new SaGa entry and recently saying he hopes he never has to do one again as he would rather work on SaGa instead, and god only knows what Ito has been doing for the past decade outside of being asked to overlook one of his old projects when it gets remastered/remade. I certainly doubt Kitase is going to ever step back in to direct either, so it's either Toriyama or someone new.

[Fynn]

Please no :cry:

[maybee]

Just like all of Square Enix's flagship games seem to end up in these days. Gotta build that new engine each time, yo.

There is a good video on YT somewhere about Square craving big flashy graphics with new engines almost murdered FF.

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Found it !

[Psychotic]

I don't think FFXV killed the FF franchise, but it also didn't restore it to the top of the pile either. It was decent enough and did everything it needed to, but it didn't blow minds or redefine the RPG genre either.

[Wolf Kanno]

One that I'd throw out would be Xenosaga Episode II. The forever and a day cut scenes, the strange battle system, the long slog of corridor running, all of it pretty much killed any hopes of a full 6 episode run for that series and honestly, kept me from playing Episode III even though I have heard it made improvements on Episode II.

Take care all.

Yeah, this is definitely a definitive one. Xenosaga never recouped from the backlash of that title. A lesser one is also Suikoden IV. While the DS spin-off likely killed the franchise, IV was the entry that greatly hurt the series clout with fans and Konami, leading to the lukewarm reception of Suikoden Tactics and Suikoden V, before Konami decided to just reboot the franchise a la Silent Hill to about the same success rate.

Speaking of Konami, I only sort of agree about MGSV, while it certainly killed the franchise, I feel it has a lot more to do with Kojim no longer working on it and Konami's own BS rather than due to the faults of the game. With the exception of the missing Eli episode, I honestly feel the overall design of MGSV is actually complete and it was meant to give a feeling of non-ending at the end. This is Kojima we're talking about here, and it's not the first time he's tried to be meta with his titles.

FFXII and FFTA2 largely killed Ivalice for SE. Granted, like MGS above, I feel the larger issue here is that the creative force that drove the setting is gone is largely to blame, but XII's lukewarm reaction from fans, as well as TA2's inability to re-ignite the fans passion due to making a product that lacked ambition and focus, largely killed our chances to see a standalone Ivalice title that isn't mobile or MMO event based. That might change now that Zodiac Age released with modest success, but we'll see.